The Bechdel Cast - Priscilla Queen of the Desert

Episode Date: September 5, 2024

The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert with Matt Baume Follow Matt at @mattbaume on Instagram and go to www.mattbaume.com where you can watch his videos, buy his books, and listen to his podcast!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch, right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question, starting October 3rd. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out, like Ezra Klein, Jen Psaki,

Astead Herndon, Karl Rove, and David Axelrod. But we're also gonna have some fun, thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee and Charlemagne the God. We're gonna take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, starting October 3rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Guess what, Will?

What's that, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese. So I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money? And then, of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in 1969, four young musicians from Texas were hired to impersonate the British psychedelic rock band, The Zombies. It was one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history.

And now, the entire story has been uncovered in a new podcast. All episodes are available now. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search true story of the fake zombies and start listening. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare.

Can Kay trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app heart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts on the beckdel cast the questions asked if movies have women in them are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the beckdel cast. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Caitlin. I bought a bus. Do you want to drive through the Australian outback with me?

Yes, but I don't have a driver's license, so you will be doing all of the driving. I'll just be drinking Stoli in the back if that's okay with you. Well, I will also be drinking, question mark, because Hugo Weaving's character is like, I'll have a Long Island iced tea, even though he was driving. It's desert rules.

I feel like it's almost Vegas rules for DUIs. I'm kidding. It seems like they could really have fallen in a hole and died. It seems like it. But I think when we inevitably tour in Australia someday, hopefully, we should do it the way they do it in the movie. We should do it bus style. Absolutely. I'm going in hard pro ABBA. Well, same, same.

Bernadette, you would have hated Mamma Mia. Hated it. Yes. I think it's funny that they're like duking it. I don't know if Priscilla Queen of the Desert is still on Broadway, but it was on Broadway for some time. And just having Priscilla and Mamma Mia duking it out on Broadway just feels appropriate. Feels beautiful. Yeah, no, I love that. Anyways, welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the Bechdel cast. My name is Jamie

Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. We're just trying to get theist Alison Bechdel, often called the Bechdel Wallace test due to it was co-created with Alison Bechdel's friend Liz Wallace. It was originally made as a sort of one-off joke in Alison Bechdel's great comic series Dykes to Watch Out for. It was originally written not just to talk about how infrequently characters of marginalized genders speak to each other in movies but also in a queer context that has sort of been stripped back in the mainstream interpretation of this test lots of versions of it the one we use requires that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other for more than two lines of dialogue and it cannot be about a man and yeah that's the test it sure is honestly i was just really enjoying um right before we started recording an article

written about the search for the bus which of all the micro discussions to have about this movie i appreciate that there is a long essay in The Guardian about finding the bus. It took 30 years, but they found the bus. I love that. Well, Priscilla is a character. I think when they drive Priscilla, that passes the Bechdel test. I can't explain how or why, but it does.

Yeah, Priscilla is an important member of the cast. I'm so excited for this episode. It has been a long time request and we just have sort of been waiting for the right guest, the right moment. And it's happened and we're here. So let's get our guest in here. Let's do it. He's a writer, YouTuber and podcaster. It's Matt Baum. Hello. Welcome. Hi. Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my gosh. We're big fans. We cite you, I feel like every other week. Oh, yay. I'm big fans of the show too. So I'm delighted we can be, I don't know,

we can have this mutual admiration going on. Do you want to come with us on our bus tour around Australia on our scary bus? Oh, for sure. Yes. Yeah. You know, I'm very much when I travel, I'm very into like preparation and lists and making sure everybody has what they need. Like I'm the one with the sunscreen and the electrolytes and everything. So, and I don't drink. So like you could be handling the Stoli and I'll just be back there making sure everybody's got Gatorade and they've got cold compresses. Yeah. Oh, you gotta come. You gotta come. I would have like folding bikes in the back of the bus for when the bus breaks down. We're like, all right, now we're just biking to Alice Springs.

Perfect. We have like thermal suits to prevent heat exhaustion. Like it's all good. Yeah, exactly. Love it. So Matt, tell us about your relationship with this movie. Oh yeah. Yeah. We've both seen your video about it from, gosh, a couple of years ago now, but yeah. What's your history? Yeah. You know, I did a video on YouTube because that's where I spend so much of my time. I did a video on YouTube about Priscilla, but I didn't really talk in that video about its like meaning to me, which is that when I was a teenager in the nineties in suburban Connecticut, this was like

my most intense, I don't know, like locus of queer energy because it was on VH1 late at night. They had segments at the commercial breaks that were hosted by RuPaul. So RuPaul would come on and like she'd have some comment about the movie. She'd mentioned something about like the costume designer wearing a dress made of like Amex gold cards. And, you know, she'd like throw out all this like fun trivia and stuff. And this was so much more gay anything that I was getting anywhere else. So Priscilla really was, you know, an entry point for me into queer culture. Like I'd read a little bit about like the Stonewall riots and history and serious stuff.

But seeing that like, oh, and this is fun, too. Not just fun, but there's others out there and you can have a party and you can find like a neighborhood where you belong. There was so much packed into this film. Absolutely. Jamie, what's your relationship? My relationship is I saw it starting pretty young. My aunt had a copy of it, I think on maybe on VHS, something like that. And it sort of was like a fun comfort movie this movie and the birdcage were both i think the birdcage did ultimately get the heavier play but i yeah i i've watched this movie once every couple years for a long time and it's always interesting to revisit i feel like every time i i revisit it you know you you get something new out of it it's certainly a product of its time and ways that we'll discuss

but i really love it i also just love a road movie like it's just i don't know it. It's certainly a product of its time and ways that we'll discuss, but I really love it. I also just love a road movie. Like it's just, I don't know, it's, this movie is a blast and I think the performances are wonderful. And to prepare for this, because I had just watched Priscilla a couple of months ago and found a documentary that was produced about the history of it that is narrated by Terrence Stamp. Oh, yes, I just watched that on like 1.75 speed on YouTube. I've done that, yeah, because I've also talked about this movie on a different podcast.

So I like had just watched it and rewatched it. And it's a really sweet documentary. And I think it's very funny that, you know, it's like Terrence Stamp is kind of like the number one fan of Priscilla. He's like, I know it but yeah I mean learning about the production of this movie sort of made me appreciate it in ways I didn't know because not only I mean was there certainly major spots I wasn't aware of with queer culture when I first watched this movie as a kid but also there's a lot about Australian culture that I did not know or understand. And I think if you're not Australian, you would just completely miss it. So I learned

a lot. And so yeah, I'm really excited to talk about it on this show. There's so much to talk about. Caitlin, what's your history with Priscilla? I had only seen this once before when I was watching the like hundreds of movies when I first started film school in the mid 2000s. So I had heard about it and I was like, oh, I know that this is like an iconic entry into queer cinema. And I really liked it. I thought it was such a fun romp of the other queer movies I had seen. It was tonally lighter than so many of them. That and The Birdcage were two that I saw around the same time as well. And I was like, oh, it's so refreshing to see these movies that like celebrate queer joy. But I didn't watch it again for some reason. And I didn't remember a lot about it going into this rewatch, except for I remembered the ABBA piece of poo in the vial.

I mean, unforgettable. Unforgettable. I remembered some of the iconic imagery as far as like the, I think it's the Felicia character on the roof of the bus with like the flowing thing behind i mean the costumes are unbelievable and the one that always sticks to me is the the flip-flop dress the flip-flop dress is my favorite flip-flop dress it's so good iconic i remembered the ping-pong ball scene we'll get to that oh my god the ping pong ball scene this was the first viewing where i uh really truly recognized the weird sound effect they added in post you know when you're shooting a ping pong ball out of your pussy and it goes like it's like a little fish blowing a

bubble disgusting disgusting we'll talk about it but anyways if no one has ever recognized the weird like ping pong ball ejection dot mp3 they put in there um it's there multiple times and you're like why it's wild anyway so i remembered a few of those iconic moments but i forgot a lot else about it so it was really fun to revisit and be reminded of some of the things that are really fun and great about this movie and some of the things that don't hold up so well insert ping pong ball dot mp3 yeah yeah should we get into the recap and we'll go from there. Let's do it. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia.

I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch and I'm exhausted. But turns out the end is near,

right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question, starting October 3rd. This podcast is for people like me who need a little perspective and insight. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out, like Ezra Klein, Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Astead Herndon, and political strategists like Karl Rove and David Axelrod. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we'll do that thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee, Roy Wood Jr., and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Power to the podcast for the people. So whether you're obsessed with the news or just trying to figure out what's going on,

this season of Next Question is for you. Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, starting October 3rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better.

With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we assume. My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today.

And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer.

This is Rip Current, available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours.

BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it.

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm.

Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so we are in Sydney, Australia. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it? Yeah. Wow. It actually, it looks really appealing. Sydney, Australia. Ever heard of it? Ever heard of it? Yeah. Wow. Uh-huh. It actually, it looks really appealing, you know, and I didn't get the first time I watched the movie when I was a teenager.

I was like, why are they so down on this place? There's a gay bar and there's people who are like waving goodbye when they leave. Like, it seems nice. And I just, I didn't get like why they were, why they had Sydney fatigue. Yeah, I don't know. I think that's one of the things that you need like australian context to really appreciate it kind of reminded me i mean just like my relationship with like i guess i've only really lived in like two big cities but like both times you know you have days where you're like this place is a shithole this place is cooked and then

someone visits and they're like wow this is the is the most beautiful. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, I guess. I guess I sort of forget that there is beautiful things around me because I'm so annoyed with everyone all the time. I could relate with that. Exactly. Yeah. That grass is greener. The grass is always greener. Yeah. Yeah.

What's that movie that it's about? Like a bunch of people who get trapped in an explosion in the Lincoln Tunnel or something like that. It's from like the early 90s. Oh, my God. Daylight. Yeah. Sylvester Stallone. Right.

I, that sounds right. It starts with like all these people, like just random people entering the link tunnel and, or whichever, whichever, I don't know, whichever one it was.

And one of them is this woman who's moving out of New York and she'll like her whole like little car. It's like a Gremlin is like loaded up with every possession. And she's like, screamingly furious at New York. And she's driving into the town. She's like a gremlin is like loaded up with every possession and she's like screamingly furious at new york and she's driving into the town she's like i've had it up to here with all your shit new york like that's her introduction to that character and that's kind of how these these drag queens feel to me at the start of the movie they're done they're done oh gosh anyway so we're

in we're in sydney yeah and we open on a drag show where drag queens Mitzi, played by Hugo Weaving, and Felicia, played by Guy Pearce, are performing. But the crowd is lackluster, if not hostile toward them. Yeah, they're throwing cans. Yeah. And they're like, we're sick of this shit and then mitzi who also goes by the name tick receives a call from a woman who we don't yet know who this is who pitches something to mitzi off screen mitzi seems down for it then calls her friend bernadette played by terrence stamp whose husband had just died. Her husband.

Her husband. What's her husband's name? Her husband has kind of a weird name. It's like tuba. Trombone. Trombone. No, trumpet. Trumpet.

Some brass instrument. And you're like, is this an Australia thing? Could you just be named trumpet? So we learn that Bernadette's husband, Trumpet, has just passed away. So Mitzi and Felicia attend the funeral. Also, it's worth noting here that Bernadette is a trans woman. Mitzi and Felicia are, as far as we know, cis men who are drag performers. I will probably just refer to them as Mitzi and Felicia, although they are also known as Tick and Adam. Anyway, so they

attend the funeral where Mitzi invites Bernadette to come along on an upcoming tour, I guess a road trip to Alice Springs, which is in the outback for a string of shows that will begin in a few weeks. And Mitzi also invites Felicia to Bernadette's dismay because she thinks Felicia is a bit much. Not entirely wrong. She's money. And names it Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. They pack up, they load into Priscilla the bus, and they head out on the road. They're driving, they're singing, they're chatting. Bernadette

and Felicia are not getting along. This is the start of Felicia deadnaming Bernadette, a trend which happens throughout the movie. We'll talk about that. Then Mitzi reveals the reason she got this gig in Alice Springs, which is her wife her wife her his wife offered up the gig at this hotel that I think hotel casino-y thing yeah she runs this like I think casino is probably a resort it's yeah yeah like that I get the impression that like Alice Springs I don't know that this is exactly right but it's sort of like Bronson, Missouri. Like it's a lower tier, middle of the country sort of destination. That's not too expensive. But it's also like there's more culture than you'll find if you go like 20 miles outside of it.

So it's sort of like a little a little oasis. Yeah. Yeah, that feels right. I mean, Australian listeners, feel free to correct us. But that did feels right. I mean, Australian listeners, feel free to correct us. But that did feel right. I don't know, especially based on the reaction towards the end. Spoiler know about this wife who mitzi is estranged from felicia keeps ragging on mitzi about it then they stop in a small town mitzi and felicia are both in just wild drag costumes this is where we see the flip-flop dress. Felicia is in this like blue plastic wig and they go out to a bar and many of the townspeople are very, you know, queer phobic toward them. But then the group mostly war wake up to see that Priscilla the bus has been vandalized with a homophobic slur painted across the side of the bus. Felicia also deadnames Bernadette again, and she understandably lashes out at Felicia. They set off again, taking a shortcut on a dirt road.

But oh no. Oh no. Priscilla the bus breaks down so bernadette sets off on foot into the desert to try to find some help meanwhile felicia paints over the vandalism on the bus turning priscilla into a like pinkish color it's lavender it's not what lavender is that's true actually lavender i think would be a little more blue i think this is a magenta but whatever like but at this point i don't want to encourage any more infighting on this bus so like fine fine what you want. And then Bernadette eventually comes back with help, although the man sees Mitzi in drag and immediately speeds off.

So they're stranded still. And they use the time to start rehearsing for the upcoming shows. Then a man named Alan, played by Alan Dargen, finds the trio and brings them to a party that he and his friends and family are having in the desert. Mitzi, Bernadette, and Felicia put on a little show for the group. Alan gets into drag and joins them. The next day, Alan helps them get a tow truck and then disappears from the movie. I wish Alan went with them. I know.

It felt like the movie is setting it up for Alan to come with. Yeah. I know. I really want the Alan story. They've opened his eyes and he's opened theirs. I don't know. They part ways and the camera goes with our heroes, but I want another movie where it goes with him.

Yeah. Spinoff. He was a natural. goes with him. Yeah. A spinoff. He was a natural. Yeah. So then they get a tow from a guy named Bob, played by Bill Hunter, to this small town. The trio has dinner with Bob and his wife, Cynthia, played by Julia Cortez, who Bob is very cruel to. And we will talk about that as well. But Bob suggests the trio perform their show at a local pub, and they're like, I don't know if this

town is gonna go for the type of show that we do. And Bob is like, no, it'll be fine. I, for one, love drag shows. He was a fan of the lay girls from back in the day when he used to live in Sydney. And he's like, no, it'll be great. So the trio does their show. And sure enough, the audience hates it. But they're interrupted when Cynthia comes into the bar, proceeds to get on stage, put ping pong balls into her vagina and then pop them back out again. And everyone is like, woohoo, encore. I mean, an impressive feat, but we'll circle back to it. Yes. I gotta say, this scene was absolutely befuddling to me when I saw it as a teenager

because VH1 trimmed it. There was a little bit of a made-for-cable edit here that made the scene absolutely mystifying. It was mortifying and mystifying. And I could tell that something embarrassing had happened, but enough of the scene had been chopped out that it was totally, totally befuddling. So I got to say, like, once I finally saw the proper movie, like I actually got it on VHS, actually the movie, I was like, oh, OK. But otherwise, it just seems like she shows up, everybody cheers and then everyone gets

mad. And I'm like, why is Felicia cackling? And why are they so stunned? Like, what is happening? She's just dancing. Yeah, exactly. That's, I mean, having pulled things out of my vagina on stage many times before, the raw launch that Cynthia is able to do. I, you know.

The Kegels. Drop the hint. Drop the, I know. The Kegels were,gel i like i was fascinated i mean obviously you could tell from the cinematography it did not happen because of ping pong ejection dot mp3 but it was like is it possible could it be done uh what's the movie where there's a character on stage you see them like spread eagle and it seems like ping pong balls are shooting out of this character's vagina. But then it cuts to the like reverse angle.

And you just see that character like hitting the ping pong balls. Is this happening in two movies? Hitting the ping pong balls with a ping pong paddle. And so the joke is like, oh, you think the balls are coming out of the vagina, but they're just hitting them with a paddle. What movie is this? Does anyone know? I have no idea. I'm stunned.

I would like to watch it. Yeah. Was this more of a thing? Was this a reference people would be like, oh, yeah, that thing. I hope that this is the kind of thing where our listeners are like, you didn't know about that? I feel like I've seen this referred to in other. And I don't know if Priscilla, Queen of the Desert is like the genesis of this. Like patient zero. Yeah, but like I definitely have seen it referred to in other things.

Wow. I will say I went to a show, this is many years ago at Ackbar in LA. It was an ass themed art show. And there was a performance by somebody who comes out. There's a stage. We're all sitting in the audience. There's, I don't know, like 25 people in the audience. And so this person comes out and lays down a drop cloth and we're like, what's coming next? And then they come out and very, very deliberately put down these little paint, squeezy paint bottles with like, it looks kind of like in a kitchen when

you have like the squeezy bottles with like the plastic lid and the, you know, the nozzle on top very deliberately lays them down. They're full of pain around the edge of the stage. We're like, what is happening here? They remove their clothes and then they very deliberately insert the paint into themselves. And then silently, by the way, there's no sound happening. They move from corner to corner to corner of the drop cloth and create a work of art by ejecting the paint onto the drop cloth.

And I will tell you, you could have heard a pin drop from the audience. We were transfixed by this artwork. And then as I recall, it was hanging on the wall by the end of the night. So anyway, I love art.

That is amazing. Yes. God, that rocks. Yeah. I think it was the event, as I recall, was called The Whole Story. And it was just like one butt themed piece of art after another. Amazing. Wow.

I love a pun. I love a whole story. Well, listeners, I mean, if there time-honored tradition of ping pong ball hole ejection do let us know no need to send links but like you know send them to me i want to yeah send caitlin the whole length i uh yeah maybe maybe you've just lived to shelter to life well time to break free jamie i wonder what movie you're thinking i don't know it's a movie i've seen a couple times but clearly not enough to even remember what the movie is it's some comedy i'm guessing because like and that's a pretty funny joke like oh you think and then

the reveal oh they're just hitting it with a paddle that feels like a zucker like a police squad type or like i feel like leslie nielsen would be adjacent to that joke in some way yeah is it a hangover movie sorry i'm looking i don't think so those movies aren't smart enough for a joke like that this is bradley cooper talks about catching vagina launched ping pong ball what a headline and that's not even from a movie it's just from his journal we'll figure it out maybe by the end of the episode but anyway so we see this scene where cynthia is launching ping pong balls out of her pussy and everyone loves it except for bob who is humiliated and this seems to dissolve his marriage with Cynthia because she packs up

her car and leaves and Bob joins Bernadette Mitzi and Felicia on their road trip and then this is the part of the movie where I start screaming Bernadette you can do better oh my gosh they are obsessed with Bob and it's like did you not see him being horribly abusive to his wife like what the fuck anyway so they stop in another small town Mitzi and Bernadette enjoy a quiet dinner where they discuss Mitzi wanting to have children they discuss Bernadette's transition meanwhile Felicia gets all dolled up in drag. And I don't know exactly how to phrase this, but it's not the like, campy, exaggerated show drag that we've seen her in up until this point. It's more like attempting to pass as a cis woman. And Felicia goes to this gathering of men drinking beer in a parking lot.

Bob is there too. And Felicia flirts with one of the men. And he's into it at first, but then sees Felicia's arm hair. I think that's like the giveaway that this is not a cis woman. So he assaults and starts chasing Felicia. And only then does Bob reveal that he knows Felicia. Right. Because Bob intervenes.

Mitzi and Bernadette see this happening and they step in and stop this, you know, mob of homophobes and they get Felicia to safety. We see Bernadette first berating, consoling Felicia and then the group sets off again toward their destination Bob at some point tells the others that Cynthia basically tricked him into marrying her or something happened like that again we'll discuss that further later. Then Bernadette and Bob are kind of vibing. And then they finally arrive at their destination, Alice Springs. Ever heard of it? And Mitzi reunites with her, his wife, Marion, played by Sarah Chadwick. And then we get a reveal that they have a child together, a little boy named Benj, which Mitzi knows about, but Bernadette and Felicia obviously don't.

So they're shocked once again. Mitzi loves to have a little secret. Yes. Drag queens love a reveal. And so they prep for and put on the first show, their lip syncing to finally it's happened to me right in front of my face and I just cannot hide it. And there are lots of elaborate costumes and costume changes, which just through the magic of film editing just happened.

At the end of the show, Mitzi sees that Benj was watching the whole time and Mitzi faints, embarrassed to know that Benj knows about Mitzi being a drag performer. But Benj is fine with it. He seems proud of his father, doesn't care that he's gay. And then Marion and Benj join the group on the road in Priscilla, the bus, so that Mitzi can spend more time with and get to know Benj. Though Mitzi is putting on more of the like, tick persona, like pretending to be straight, dressing more masculine, I guess like pretending to be straight dressing more masculine I guess like wanting to be a quote-unquote good example for Benj but he doesn't give a fuck and he's like I want to see the ABBA show that you do do you have a boyfriend what's going on it reminded me of like this is

incredibly different genre but how in every Mary-Kate and Ashley movie the kids are obsessed with like do you have a boyfriend when are you getting married like Benj is a character like that where anytime he's talking to his dad he's like do you have a boyfriend tell me I was like wow I can't imagine asking my parents so I mean I understand the narrative function but it just always makes me laugh when a child does that in a movie because I feel like most children really do not want to know what their parents are up to. Correct. I also I love that Benji is like unfazed by Felicia, like that character, the Guy Pearce character, like the whole movie, his deal has been I like to get a rise out of people. I like to piss people off, shock people.

And this kid like actually is surprising to him and they had this very brief scene together and by the end of it i think benji said something like do you want to play lego or something like that and like they're actually sort of like well matched because felicia's so childish and they actually are a good pair the two of them yeah yeah because felicia's like, you know, your dad's gay, right? And Ben just like, I don't give a fuck. Let's go play Lego. Yeah, it's just very sweet.

And I like that it seems like, I mean, I know that Felicia is going back to Sydney to be a performer again. But it also seems like there's going to be like a very found family kind of nature. And because we'll talk about it, but that's like so much of what makes this movie so special because we know at the very beginning of the movie that felicia adams family are wealthy homophobes and that there isn't much support to be had there so by the end you know they are all co-parenting the most 1990s looking child i've ever seen in my life that's true that's true that like just a little bit later if this movie had been made um later or earlier i can't do math it would be ryan philippe like that is totally yeah the the vibe that this kid has mark holmes i think is the actor's name the hair the the clothes like the

stripy shirt the the chunky sneakers. Like, I think he's got cargo shorts. Like, it's very, yeah. And you know what? If it had been made a few years later, he would have had like the Zelda Triforce. It would have been the green Zelda Triforce t-shirt, the cargo shorts, black sneakers.

That's the kid we would have had there. Child uniform of the day. Yeah. Then we see Mitzi, Bernadette and felicia in drag climbing a mountain a reference to i think felicia saying like i want to climb this mountain kings something as a queen and then bernadette was like oh a cock in a frock on a rock. So I think that they're fulfilling that dream. The prophecy has been realized. Yes. There's something so interestingly

patriotic about this movie, like Australian patriotic, where so many components of it are celebrating Australian history and culture and not always, I think, nailing it exactly. I think the treatment of Aboriginal characters is a little dismissive and stuff like that. But, you know, I think the treatment of Aboriginal characters is a little dismissive and stuff like that.

But, you know, that final drag number where there's so many like iconic Australian elements. Yeah. I will survive with a didgeridoo is so lovely. It's my favorite number in the in the film is like hearing that sort of mashup. And like then that like that, I think it's King's Canyon at the end. That was actually going to be Uluruu they want to do it on um i forget what the um there's an english language name for it something rock anyway but um they weren't able to shoot there because of like cultural concerns around filming there and so they went to this other location but yeah there's just there's so much there's so much australia and like isn't it great to be australian about this film yeah which is what i i didn't realize i mean until i was like

looking into the background and and watched this documentary how widely embraced it was to the point where it was like uh there were references to priscilla the bus in the olympics when they came to australia you're like oh it's like it's loved like that like that's fascinating anyway sorry i know i know the recap's almost over but it is interesting yeah that like sort of underlying patriotism that on you know the first 10 years i was watching this movie i just didn't know enough about australia to even recognize yeah for sure okay so the movie basically ends where they're back at the hotel b Bernadette reveals that she has decided to stay in Alice Springs for a while with Bob. And again, we're like, you can do better, Bernadette. She's vulnerable. She'll dump him.

I hope so. Trombone just died, or whatever. Trombone. Yeah. But they say goodbye. And then Mitzi and Felicia go back to Sydney. They do the Abba show lip syncing to Mamma Mia. Here we go again. The second movie this year that ends with that song. So there you go. Yes, indeed. And then Benj is in the audience watching gleefully. The end. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist

who on October 16th, 2017 was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks. Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

And she paid the ultimate price. and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch and I'm exhausted. But turns out the end is near, right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question, starting October 3rd. This podcast is for people like me who need a little perspective and insight. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out, like Ezra Klein, Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Astead Herndon, and political strategists like Karl Rove and David Axelrod. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron. But we'll do that thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee, Roy Wood Jr., and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some

viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Power to the podcast for the people. So whether you're obsessed with the news or just trying to figure out what's going on, this season of Next Question is for you. Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, starting October 3rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think.

We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better. With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we assume. My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. This summer, the nation watched as the Republican nominee for president was the target of two assassination attempts, separated by two months. These events were mirrored nearly 50 years ago, when President Gerald Ford faced two attempts on his life in less than three weeks. President Gerald R. Ford came stunningly close to being the victim of an assassin today. And these are the only two times we know of that a woman has tried to assassinate a U.S. president. One was the protege of infamous cult leader Charles Manson. I always felt like Lynette was kind of his right-hand woman. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI in a violent revolutionary underground.

Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange and violent summer. This is Rip Current. Available now with new episodes every Thursday. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life.

It's too late for that. I have a thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not.

What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people.

There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. and we're back where do we want to start the discussion today i mean i guess maybe a little bit of background would be appropriate so this movie was directed by stephan elliott who was not out at the time this movie came out but is a gay director and i didn't know yeah until watching this documentary how rooted this movie was in the drag scene that he was very much a like huge fan of in sydney in the 80s we'll link to this documentary in the description because it is really a fun celebration of this movie and that the character of Tick or Mitzi was based on this famous Australian drag performer Cindy Pastel and

so I mean there's just like all of these fascinating just how this came to be where you know he was working in film by day and going to drag clubs by night and then eventually married it in this beautiful way. And he was also only 30 when he directed this, which always makes me mad. Yeah, and I read that after this script, at least the first draft came together pretty quickly after Stefan had the idea and wrote the screenplay and was trying to get this movie off the ground. He and some producers were trying to get it financed, pitching it around, having a hard time getting the financing, which comes as no surprise because, again, the landscape, the media landscape, the global cultural landscape, the attitude toward queer people in this era, because this was the early 90s. Which also, I mean, it was interesting listening to him talk about the reasons that he was being turned down for funding, because it sounded like, I mean, it was certainly in part because it was

a queer story. But also, he like mentions that part of the criticism was that it was too funny. And so it was like, oh, sure, you can tell a queer story, maybe, but only if it's completely... Tragic. Yeah, depressing. And there's not a moment of joy expressed throughout. And I don't know, he was using some choice language to describe that process, but it just like it you know it's like incredibly frustrating to be like well you know maybe we'll consider funding this if the characters uh don't have a happy ending or like don't experience joy and it's like fuck you yeah you know you look at the landscape of what's happening around this time i mean mainstream is expecting a gay movie to be like longtime companion or philadelphia I think was, I think came out the same year or around the same time.

There's so much, there's just so much tragedy. It's hard to think of frothy gay comedies from the early 90s, you know, kind of understandably, like there's a lot of like really tragic stuff going on at this point in history. However, boy, oh boy, you need to laugh. You know, queer people were not all like doom and gloom all the time. Yeah. But you wouldn't know it from the culture that was getting funded. Totally.

And then casting this movie was another uphill battle where they went out to several people. Many actors they approached were either not available or simply not interested. They didn't want to play a drag queen or a trans woman or anything along those lines. And Terrence Stamp, who ultimately got cast as Bernadette, talks about how terrified he was of playing this role. And even, you know, days into shooting was still like, oh my god, I don't know if I can do this. And then describing like during one scene, everything just kind of like clicked and he like stepped over the barrier and described just like feeling fearless and eventually like, you know, embrace the role and, you know, loves the movie now but and you know part of the problem is that this is a movie about queer people and the cast is all cis het people question mark yeah as far as i know i you know i don't care who knows what's truly in their hearts and in their in their private lives but

of course you know i i love that this is a film with a trans character, but I don't love that it's played by a cis man. It's not actually played by a trans woman. On the other hand, you know, there was no Janet Malk type, you know, the industry was not, let us say, nurturing trans talent in the early 1990s. Certainly not. So, you know, obviously those actors existed, but finding them and also getting funding for something requires having some amount of star power in there. And so Terrence Stamp is,

you know, this is somebody who'd been in movies for a long time, Billy Budd, and then all the way up to Superman three, four, one of the Supermans. So, you know, this is somebody who has a bit of a name. So I understand the need to get either Stamper. They went to Tony Curtis before him. And like what what trans star could they have gone to at this point? Because the industry and even the independent film scene was really keeping trans actors down, was supp 90s, you sort of see that trend again and again. I know that like it's impossible to encounter any article about Priscilla that doesn't mention the parallels between two Wong Fu, which is, you know, for what it's worth, for all the annoying Reddit posts I saw, they were developed independently of each other. It is a, you know, coincidence, but much the same, you know, where the choice was, well, do we stand a

better chance of getting funding if we put a star in it, which is a really unfortunate kind of, what is the word I'm looking for? Like, businessy decision to make. I would have loved to have seen, I think Calpurnia Adams was working around this time. And, you know, again, not like a very famous, well-known name, but I mean, there you go. There's a trans woman who I think would have been pretty astonishing in this role. Now, I don't think she's the right age for that, but like, you know, I'm racking my brains to even think of somebody who's being given opportunities any trans actress who's being given opportunities in 93 94 are you kidding me I like which is really too bad because we know that Stefan Elliott you know certainly knew plenty of trans performers and plenty of drag performers because that was what the story was inspired by I don't know it's it's difficult I I don't want to come down on Stefan Elliott too hard because it is like a miracle that this movie was made at the time and in the climate it was made in. But nonetheless.

Yeah. Missed opportunity. But that's just, you know, I think something that you see a bunch in this film is cultural rules that we kind of maybe take for granted or at least have the privilege of having now just didn't exist. Like the taboo around dead naming, I don't think was as widely known. I mean, obviously trans people understood why that was unacceptable then, but I think it was not looked at. I think it was still, you know, by other queer people, it was just kind of a joke to know somebody's dead name then. It wasn't understood to be the taboo that it should have been. Right. So that's the thing about this movie where in some ways it's ahead of its time and kind of helped push the needle forward

as far as queer representation in mainstream media. Yeah, it's a brave film in a lot of ways. But at the same time, it's still very of the time where it's, you know, casting a cis actor to play a trans character. And it's the thing where it's like, OK, if actor to play a trans character and it's the thing where it's like okay if they need a star I get that but like then why not cast the role of Mitzi because Hugo Weaving at the time was basically unknown so like cast a star for Mitzi and then cast an unknown you know if you're gonna have an unknown actor anyway cast an unknown, you know, if you're going to have an unknown actor anyway, cast an unknown trans actor for the role of Bernadette. Right. But at least this movie, to bring up To Wong Fu again, because that's a movie,

as we discussed on that episode, doesn't seem to understand the distinction between drag performers and trans women, whereas this movie does understand that distinction. But again, it has the trans character played by a cis actor. We also see several examples of, you know, cishet people being horribly queerphobic toward these characters, and that being framed as a bad thing. But then there are many other examples in the movie of bigotry that is not condemned by the movie, such as Felicia constantly deadnaming and being transphobic toward Bernadette or white characters being cruel to Cynthia, for example. So it's a step in the right direction, but it's also doing some very outdated, problematic things. Yeah, boy, that Cynthia character is so complex.

At least my feelings about her are very complex because personally, I do regard the character as being pretty racist and misogynist. However, I've spoken to a lot of other Filipino people who say, no, actually, I think she's funny. And I like her. Yeah, I get why she's tropey and I get why it's a negative depiction, but also it's a lot of and I like her. Yeah, I get why she's tropey and I get why it's, you know, a negative depiction,

but also it's a lot of fun to see her. And somebody compared it to how a lot of queer people just really love Cruella de Vil, for example, or, you know, there's like, there's queer, Cruella's probably not a great example because she's not queer herself. I don't, you know, explicitly at least. A queer coded villain, like all thoseney movies are yeah hollywood montrose

is another one that i look at like this is a problematic character um being played by a as far as i know uh heterosexual actor mishak taylor but i just i love hollywood montrose and the mannequin movies he's just so much fun as tropey and problematic but he's just so much fun as tropey and problematic, but he's just so much fun to watch. I saw Mannequin for the first time this year and was blown away. My God, what an incredible character. Oh yeah, just like, here's the thing that Hollywood and that Cynthia and Priscilla have is they're scene stealers.

They're chewing the scenery. They're having such a good time. They're running circles around our main characters. They're just stealing the scene. And if I was seeing myself in that role, as I am with, you know, in a role like Hollywood, like there's a lot of that I see about him that is aspirational. I'd be like, yeah, cool. Good for you. And the fact that you are playing into some really negative tropes, but also seems like you're having a good time with it. And it's not like,

I don't, you know, this is where I think they differ. Hollywood feels affectionate and cynthia actually feels like this feels like a malicious depiction and i've heard stephen elliott there's stephen elliott talk about like they were trying to send up they were trying to make fun of racism but i think that it perhaps lacks some clarity for sure yeah yeah i was fascinated to hear that in your in your And I like the, I mean, I'm never going to argue a reclaiming. Like, it's not my place at all. But I did see that there was, there also has been like pretty significant criticism of it. Like at the time the movie was released, pulling Melba Marginson, who, you know, said more of what I sort of thought might be the criticism around this character saying that she

was portrayed as, quote, a gold digger, a prostitute, an entertainer whose expertise is popping out ping pong balls from her sex organ. What a phrase. A manic depressive, loud and vulgar, the worst stereotype of the filipina she argued that by portraying cynthia in this manner the filmmakers were quote violently killing the dignity of filipina women something she feared that would lead to quote more violence against us so there was also i mean there has been plenty of criticism around the character as well i understand the argument for reclaiming not gonna you know, you know, obviously be like, you can't do that. But I feel for this character. And it also, it's so weird,

because we just recorded an episode about my best friend's wedding. Bear with me here. But how, like, I think that Cynthia, for all of her campiness, like, her presence also serves to make Bob look, I think, worse in a way that the movie doesn't really seem to recognize or have an interest in examining. Because we see him basically like he locks up her stuff. He's like kind of holding her hostage in the house. He's dismissive to her at every turn. It's made to be a joke. And then, you know, when she escapes, question mark, to do the ping pong dot MP33 routine he like yanks her off stage and it's

like very physically violent way fully abusive to her and then when she leaves that's also made to be like a joke like she's being unreasonable we're like i would leave you know and yeah what i want for here's my rewrite of cynthia that i would have pitched where I involved in this movie, which I want a scene instead of her like storming out and leaving. I would want like a little more intimate scene between her and Bernadette where like it's the day after they're like Bernadette's just drinking coffee by herself. And Cynthia comes over and she like drops the act. And she's like, look, I just married this guy because I needed the immigration status and I can't do this anymore. I'm exhausted. I'm getting out of here. You can have him. Good luck to you. And like so that Cynthia is not like this cartoon character because all the other characters are so well realized.

Just some moment where it's like Cynthia knows what's going on. She's not like this hypersexual freak. And she's just like, yeah, all right. This is my act. I'm going back to Sydney and I'm going to seek my fortune out there. And then, you know, like I want to see Cynthia and Bernadette realize that they are equals or peers in some way. And then they're just like these ships that are crossing in the night and Cynthia wants Bernadette's life. Bernadette wants Cynthia's life. OK, cool. Now she's a person um we don't get that no we don't you know that's a way to bring you know potentially bring bob and bernadette together in a way that feels a little less icky if if bernadette is like standing up for cynthia of like look if you don't want to be married to her that's fine

but you can't treat her like that and bob having to recognize and at least acknowledge how he's acting it doesn't absolve him of anything i I think that, you know, Bernadette and Zedilla should ditch him personally. But like, I don't know, I was a little like, it feels very of its time that Bob's behavior specifically goes so unexamined, because after this sort of like run of him being only abusive to his wife which we're not supposed to care about because of all these heavy racial and gender stereotyping that cynthia has he just turns to you know he turns to the gals and makes a little joke and he's like well you know some days you just shouldn't wake up and then he's like the primary romantic interest of the movie and you're like it's it's really annoying right because they join in on like the racism and

misogyny that both bob is hurling at cynthia and that the movie is because they you know they talk about her like she's property, that Bob should have quote unquote sold her off. And to me, it's a reminder that not everyone who belongs to a marginalized community will automatically show solidarity or allyship to other marginalized communities, unfortunately. For example, there is a history of white queer people being racist. There's a history of cis gay people being transphobic. You know, we see examples of both in this movie. And it's not as though we're seeing something unrealistic, unfortunately.

The problem is the movie presents that but doesn't challenge it or frame it as a bad thing. I think the best you can say, and this is not absolving it is hey it's the 90s like this is just reflecting some very common attitudes that would i think evolve into like the edgy racism of south park but you know the thing of like the man having some possession of the wife and especially in like a more rough and tumble sort of context like the Australian Outback and you know the casual homophobia the casual racism the casual misogyny and that's just you know hey it's the 90s

not good it's not a good thing but no like the conversation about hey maybe let's not do this like would have been greeted with like such an eye roll of like oh boy here come the politically correct police right but it's like if they wouldn roll of like oh boy here come the politically correct police right but it's like if they wouldn't even have had to do that if they had just written this character

better like if they'd written cynthia better they wouldn't have needed to have to address all the horrible like i don't know i mean whatever it's 1994 and i know that it's like putting 2024 morals on a 1994 movie is a non-starter. But even for 1994, I feel like there was room for improvement because it was criticized at the time as well. Exactly. Yeah. No. You know, who knew that it was racist was people who were the object of that kind of racism then. Right. They could have told you. It wasn't like a discovery waiting to be made. that I will say you know for the Bernadette Bob relationship although I uh don't care for Bob is that I was you know I guess like on the analysis pleasantly surprised that first of all that our only trans character has a love story which I feel like is you know certainly a rarity

at this time and also that the oldest character has a love story because that also feels very unusual and people over a certain age don't have access to romance stories in successful iconic movies so i appreciated those aspects but the actual the guy himself wasn't a fan yeah i would have loved you know bob could maybe have been redeemed somewhat for me if he had some quick scene with Bernadette where he's talking about Cynthia and he's like, I fucked up. You know, just something where he's, you know, instead Bernadette just calls him a gentleman. But, you know, some like awareness from him of like, you know, I got into a shitty situation there and I could have done it. I wish I could redo. I wish I could make up for what I did wrong there. And without realizing it, he starts doing

nice things for Bernadette. And then the two of them eventually, I don't know, I'm writing this whole, it's a completely different movie at this point. You just have to write another movie, I think, Matt. You know what? It's the Allen story. And we see what Allen's been up to for the last 30 years. And he encounters Bernadette and Bob out in the desert or something. And you know, I forgot to revisit this. I know that when I when I watched this movie and talked about it a couple of months ago, I had just refreshed myself on it. A lot of what we're talking about is course corrected in the big musical adaptation. It's not a one to one. And I'm trying to remember what the specific changes

were. But for those that have seen the musical, please let us know because there were deliberate changes to sort of un-1994 elements of this movie to adapt it for the stage. Trans actors are in the main cast. I mean, there's that I definitely remember. I think that there were plot elements adjusted as well to give Cynthia a fuller character. And I believe fleshing out the character of Marion a little more as well. So anyways, if you've seen the show, I would love to see this on stage. Mainly because I want to see a bus inside of a building. It reminds me of there's this point in the 1970s where Broadway got very like kind of high on its own supply of like scenery and set pieces and revolving stages. And, you know, even into the 90s with the helicopter and the chandelier.

But there's this musical in the 70s called On the 20th Century Limited or the 20th Century Limited that had like a giant train set piece. Like that's kind of what the giant glittery gleaming bus in the Priscilla stage musical must feel like when it was coming through Los Angeles, the Priscilla, the musical, this would have been like 2011 or 12, maybe I was working as an event photographer at the time. And I was hired to shoot the red carpet, the step and repeat outside. I think it was the Pantages wherever it was playing in LA. And I remember like I shot the red carpet and you know, it's that whole like nightmare scenario of like all the photographers like shouting everybody's name. Look at me, look at me. Oh, right over here. And at one point,

Willem walks through, Willem the Drag Queen, who a lot of people know from Drag Race and a lot of other appearances in LA and other shows. And as far as I know, Willem had no connection to this show and not done anything with it. And the story that I was kind of getting from know Willem had no connection to this show and not done anything with it and the story that I was kind of getting from like Willem just talking to other people on the red carpet was he just saw that there was this red carpet happening and like as a drag personality just like kind of walked his way onto it and then just went home afterwards and just saw like oh there's a drag thing I'll just walk my way on here and then walk off I don't know if if that's 100% the situation, but that's like what I was understanding from like the gossip that he was giving to the other photographers who were there.

That's incredible. Yeah. It does look like a great, like these songs are so good. You know, same thing with Mamma Mia. It's just like an excuse to like hear songs that you love to hear and see some really fantastic costumes. Yeah. And this won the Academy Award for costumes.

And rightfully so, I think. Like for all these movies faults, it is pretty amazing how well and how successful and beloved this movie was instantly. It wasn't I mean, it's considered a cult classic, but I kind of hesitate to even call it a cult classic because it was a huge mainstream success when it came out. It was like one of the highest grossing movies that had ever come out of Australia ever. And it centered around queer characters and, you know, the flaws are the flaws, but I think that that is really cool. And, you know, led, I would imagine to other movies and, and just like, you know, a point of success of like here is a queer movie

by a queer director let's put money behind more projects like this which is you know stop and go over the years but that in itself is really cool because this movie was made for less than two million dollars and made back its budget like 15 times yeah i think you know for better for worse something nice about australia is that it doesn't have the same moral panic as the U.S. around drag. I mean, especially in recent years. But I think just like with panto shows and drag and camp in the U.K., in Australia, it's much more of a fun. And sometimes this is, you know, a negative thing. Like, you know, people who are gender nonconforming are minimized or seen as pure entertainment rather than as full human beings but you don't have like the panic of like oh no

a man in a dress save the children shield their eyes yeah you know i think that's how you can have drag in the closing ceremonies of the olympics and kylie minogue singing this abba song and paying tribute to this like it becomes this national icon like for us it's like bruce springsteen or something in the u.s and i love that in tribute to this, like becomes this national icon. Like for us, it's like Bruce Springsteen or something in the U S and I love them in Australia. They have like this national pride in drag culture. And that's, you know,

I look at that as a queer person. I'm like, that's, you know, part of my culture that, that everybody's like celebrating. And imagine, imagine the U S Olympics,

even today, imagine, you know, we're going to get the, the Olympics, I think in two years in LA or maybe four, whatever it is. Four years. Yeah.

I can beat the uh from both of you when I mention that. You're dreading it already. But I saw that a few months ago in April 2024, the director, Stefan Elliott, announced that work on a sequel was underway with the original cast reprising their roles. Which is no offense how I found out how Terrence Stamp was still alive. He's like 86. He's alive. He's kicking. And I don't know if the movie will happen or not, but I'd be interested to see updates

that they hopefully make as far as, you know, eliminating the racism and the casualness with which felicia is dead naming bernadette all that kind of stuff and the um we've kind of touched on this a little bit but the way alan and the other aboriginal characters are not at all characterized they're mostly just there as set dressing for these three main white characters yeah this is happening after a scene in which felicia starts to tell what seems like it's going to be a very anti-native joke so like these characters attitudes toward anyone who is not white is abhorrent and on full display which makes like the australian nationalism uh a little yes side-eyed because uh australia has uh certainly colonized quite a bit in its day and so to you know be dismissive towards indigenous people and just really anyone who isn't white and then be like and Australia is the greatest country ever you're like okay I tried to like map that

on to like an American story and you're like yeah not awesome but then also you know there is the argument for like you know having a drag show about Australia being this like inclusiveness that you don't normally see very complicated but yeah in general I mean I guess I just really wish that Alan got on the bus I know he was such an interest and I feel like we got to know him a little bit better than we got to know other characters in these like stopovers on this road journey. And I wonder if there was a draft of this script where he joined the crew. It would have been, you know, wouldn't have, you know,

resolved the way that this movie treats non-white people in general, but it would have helped. It would have helped to actually include him. I would love for a sequel to really lean in to the Aboriginal culture and to blend because we get just a little hint of it. We get the didgeridoo, we get some Aboriginal language, some singing in this sort of remix of I Will Survive. But if we get like fully, you know, an Aboriginal approach

to gender, like, and performance and art, like merging with more, you know, European Western kind of traditions. And we see those two things. I mean, what a great opportunity for some conflict and tension too, for Native people to say, we've been doing, you know, we've had our own attitudes about gender and sexual orientation and identity for thousands of years, folks. And so this is our approach. And we're going on a road trip now uh you know like a road trip to to the big city like it's going in the other direction i don't know whatever it could be but boy oh boy i would love to see that i don't know if that's stephan elliott's story to tell maybe he's an ep on that's kind of a project but i would love to just hand the reins over to

some great aboriginal writers and directors and see where they take it yeah i just i i am curious to see where a sequel would go and i hope that i mean at very least it does seem because there were changes made to the musical that stephan elliott is not like closed off to you know acknowledging where there are shortcomings in the original text i have more nice things to say about the movie say them I really love I mean for all of their faults I really appreciate like how wildly different that Bernadette and Tick and Adam or Mitzi and Felicia are and that all of the conflict between them you know it just is very organic sometimes it's like a generational conflict that is going on sometimes it's a personality clash like I don't know it is just so fun to watch them together and especially with the relationship

with Bernadette and Felicia I think that that's like a really interesting and thoughtfully written friendship outside of the fact that Felicia like just repeatedly dead naming Bernadette you do get a glimpse of like Bernadette retaliates, but it's not clear that Felicia has actually learned a lesson because it continues to happen to the very end of the movie. It's the last line. Come on. It's ridiculous.

That is the one area where I wish Felicia had done a little bit more growing up. Like if, if he was driving off and said Bernadette and like, it was the first time he called her by a proper name, that would have been such a better ending. Come on. But there were moments with those characters that I appreciated. I mean, you do, I think like the really lowest point of the movie is when Felicia is attacked by the angry mob, which obviously was reflective of how queer people were brutalized in Sydney. And there were a lot of examples sort of given throughout the documentary we'll be linking to of how that

reflected, you know, real life at that time. And that Bernadette steps up and puts the fact that she isn't really like Felicia aside, and they have a moment and they I don't know there I appreciated some moments worked and that unfortunately was undercut by Adam Felicia's complete lack of growth when it came to dead naming and then with Mitzi I really liked I mean just the when I was like returning to watch this movie earlier this year I feel like you always sort of expect Marion to be not who she is. Like, you don't, I never am expecting for her to be, like, loving and accepting just because of how, you know, how the world is and how we've seen characters act in this movie towards the girls leading up to this point. I think it's really cool to see, you know, that happy ending for Mitzi and that, you know, this whole, that all these anxieties that are expressed throughout

the movie of like, will I be accepted? Will I be able to be a parent and do this job? And the answer is, of course you can. And that Benji is such a sweetheart and also a little Mary-Kate and Ashley of like, do you have a boyfriend? Do you have a boyfriend? I think it's sweet, you know, and something that you weren't seeing in movies very often. And you get the flip side of that as well with the understanding that, you know, Bernadette was rejected by her family and that Adam has a deeply complicated relationship with his mom where he's like, I'll take the bus money money but we're never going to be close you know like there you see the sort of wide array of how these characters interact with their own families and all of the struggles they have and i thought it was uh you know i mean not

perfect but pretty well done yeah we also see that flashback of felicia slash adam telling the story of how when adam was a little boy his uncle tried to sexually abuse him and adam recalls this memory with laughter because like he pulled the plug of the bathtub and he turned the tables on his abuser Yeah. But it's like interesting way to frame a story about an attempt at sexual abuse, like child sexual abuse. I don't know. There were certain examples where this movie felt like it was taking a very serious situation and like making light of it in a way that feltally dissonant and weird. And like, I understand like adding comedy in an attempt to like make a serious topic more palatable

or like finding humor. And I mean, you know, tragedy plus time equals comedy. But like the way this movie handled some of those examples, I was like, okay, I guess. I don't feel comfortable being like that works or doesn't because I do appreciate that it's coming from, you know, a situation where I think, you know, Stefan Elliott is setting you up for a very tragic reveal. And then Adam gets the upper hand. And I don't know. I mean, I definitely would understand if that doesn't play

for everyone but I also understand why it does play as like a cathartic win which I feel like the characters in this movie at different points you know because there are the real life queer phobia and homophobia and transphobia of the world is constantly you know basically following them around and is sometimes inside of the bus itself. But you do have like a series of moments in this movie where I think as an audience member and just understanding the time this movie came out, you expect something horrible to happen. And then the characters triumph. And that's cathartic. And yeah, moment to moment, I don't know. Yeah, I get that it doesn't always work, but I don't know.

Yeah, I think the triumph at the end, you know, it's certainly not saying like, isn't child abuse hilarious? I think that we're coming from a dark place with a lot of the humorous situations. And you're right that there is a catharsis of we came out on top to, you know, to the extent that we could have in this situation. You know, whether it's that flashback or, I i don't fight getting the chosen family at the end there's the gay bashing where the basher gets beaten up by bernadette there's the woman in is it it's not in cooper pd it's in um broken hill where the woman in the bar is like no you can't your kind isn't welcome here and bernadette has this incredibly off-color joke that everybody laughs at. And I guess to me, the question is, is the movie punching down? And I don't think it is.

I think it's actually punching up and successfully most of the time. I tend to agree. There is the portrayal of working class, small town people kind of painted with a very broad brush of being like, they're not smart. They're closed minded bigots, things like that. And I mean, that is a stereotype that is to some degree rooted in reality, but to paint all people like that with that broad stroke, which I guess is kind of subverted with bob a little bit but like and the fact that we know that adam is from a fabulously wealthy family who are also openly homophobic for sure we don't get but we don't get as much time that's sort of like a flash yeah yeah scene yeah ultimately you know i get the sense that adam uh his good looks and his

money have insulated him from a lot of suffering that the other characters may be very familiar with. And so, you know, it's not awesome that he gets knocked around a little bit at one point, but he experiences a gay bashing. It is terrifying. And then I really do love the, you know, I think that has to happen so that we get the scene where Bernadette has that wonderful line. Don't let it drag you down. Let it toughen you up. And it sucks that as a minority, you do have to make that choice to either be dragged down or to toughen up. And it's not always easy to do. Yeah, exactly.

But, you know, look, sometimes that is the choice. Like either you can wallow forever or you can grit your teeth and power through it, sometimes with the help of other people. Yeah, I love that scene. Like, let it toughen you up is something that it sucks that you have to do it, but you do. Yeah, and I do appreciate that. I wish this happened to a greater degree, especially between Felicia and Bernadette.

But this trip, you know, strengthens their bond. They realize that they need each other for just support and love and safety. And that this trip brings these friends closer together in a beautiful way. It really is. Like, it's the perfect road trip movie. It's just like, it's so Joseph Campbell. And it's like, you know, the hero's journey of these characters. And I know the comparison is often made to Too Wong Fu.

I really do think, you know, there's a lot to recommend about Too Wong Fu. There are some things to recommend about Too Wong Fu. And I think that this movie really outdoes most other road trip. Like I'm trying to think of a road trip film that I like as much as this one. I can't think of anything. My tops are A Little Miss Sunshine. And I would classify Mad Max Fury Road as a road trip movie. Okay, sure.

Similarly through the Australian Outback, I think is where. Yeah, it's, I rewatched. Yeah, because I saw Furiosa the same week that I rewatched this. I was like, oh, Australian Outback road trip movies, you know, they come in all genres. Yeah. You know, talk about like Joseph Candler, like the Dan Harmon story circle, like the journey back to our point of origin having changed. Like it is so clear the parallels between Priscilla and Fury Road are so interesting

now that you mention it. It really does match up to a lot of those plot beats that we expect from a road trip movie, from a really well-tightly plotted, eight-part structured kind of story. It really hits them at kind of the same points, doesn't it? Yeah. I think so, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt. I totally understand why this movie is a classic. There's so much to love about it. The last, just like a moment where just speaking to your point matt about the resilience of of these characters um after the bus is uh you know graffitied with slurs there's just like that one moment with mitzi tick somethingick, something akin to like, you know, you always think it's going to get easier, but it still hurts every time. And it's just a passing moment. And within five minutes, you know, they've moved on, they're painting the bus, allegedly lavender, like they're,

you know, singing. Exactly. But you have those sort of like moments of reflection that I feel like really speaks to that. This is a queer movie from a queer director because there are plenty of movies centered around queer people that come out in the 90s that are written and directed by straight people. And there's like a dissonant element to it. And I think like stephan elliott hits he hits and when he misses he misses but that's you know the nature can you imagine if um they had done this movie just a little bit differently like i can 100 see some like grant awarding body being like you need you need a straight character to get the audience in like if they had like a fourth character on the bus who is like they're straight i don't know it's like now i'm thinking of like meatloaf from spice world but like there's some straight

character in the mix there who's like a pull yeah you girls you crazy driver in that oh yeah yeah meatloaf is their bus driver and i know this because it came out on vhs when i was working at a video store and we had like a list of like five movies that we could play. It's like Armageddon and like all these like action films. And the only two I could stomach were the pro shot of Cats and Spice World. So many a time I put Spice World on because I couldn't stomach any other any other thing on the on the approved list for what was it? Strawberries. OK, yeah.

God, I need to rewatch Spice World. It's been too damn long. Same. What a treasure. I would say give yourself permission to have the finger on Fast Forward because there's some bits that's like, all right, just get me to the next music.

Get me to the next song. But I would say the opening, the opening of Spice World is, I think one of the, I wouldn't put it in the top 10, but it's an upper tier opening of a movie with the music and the finale is a lot of fun. There's a moment where, oh my God, I love it so much. There's a moment where a woman gives birth and the Spice Girls are all crowded around this woman who's literally just given birth. And one of them says, that's real girl power. And it is such an

incredible moment. I love it so much. Every time I see a woman do something amazing in a movie, I think that's real girl power. 90s feminism is such a trip. Like what happened? You're like, what are you saying? What are you on about? It's great.

Yeah. Anyway, so that's what's coming down. If you like Priscilla Queen of the Desert, check out Spice World. Wonderful takeaway yeah two bus movies yes my other takeaway is ultimately and to not a huge degree but this is a story about fathers and sons but a really like endearing one where it's kind of flipped as far as what you would normally see as far as a queer child not sure if they're going to get the acceptance and approval of their parent. And then we get this flip. And it also happens in the way that we see it represented in this

movie as far as the parent wondering if you know his child will accept him as a drag performer and a gay man and things like that and the kid is absolutely fine with it and it speaks to how ridiculous it is that there's all this like anti-drag and anti-trans legislation in the U.S. and elsewhere that it's they're justifying it as far as like, but the kids protect the kids. And it's just like, if you just don't teach kids hate and intolerance, they'll be fucking fine with it. Oh yeah. It's wild because there's an episode of Alice, the sitcom from like the mid seventies where she's really worried that her son

is going to find out that her friend is gay. And at the end of the episode, she sits him down and she's like, alright, I need to let you know. There's something that you need to know about this guy. And the kid's like, yeah, and? I thought, yeah, that's it. That's always the situation. The kids are like, so? Yeah.

Exactly. And at the end, it's like, yeah, extremely clear that Benji is better off now because like his family has like tripled in size overnight so many people to play legos with um like what more do you want as a kid is fun people to play legos with who love you come on i do wonder like tick is tick slash mitzi as far as i can, this is like her main bread and butter is doing drag. And now she's got to raise a kid on this on this income. Now, I know the 90s are different and the economics are different.

And we're not all spending like 90 percent of our income on rent in those days. But, you know, becoming a parent isn't just assuming the role of parenting full time. There's a lot of work that this character is about to take on and you know that's not what this movie is but yeah i do like it's kind of like there's some movies where i'm like what happened the next day like ghost is very much like i think about that all the time with the movie ghost like what happened the day the next day after ghost like they call the police at the end of that film and like you know there's all this stuff that happens like somebody gets killed anyway what's the next day after you know they all get

back to sydney and i'm you know i would love to see like that kid's first day at school at his new school in sydney or whatever maybe he's homeschool who knows whatever another spinoff we need in addition to the alan spinoff hell yeah yes does anyone have anything else to say about Priscilla, Queen of the Desert? Not really. Just that I love this cast. I mean, Hugo Weaving is in several of my favorite movies, a la The Matrix and Lord of the Rings. I love that he went on to have a career where he was in these huge blockbuster, high-grossing franchises. I also love him in V for Vend, high-grossing franchises.

I also love him in V for Vendetta. I love Guy Pearce. He is one of my crushes. I understand that. He's so handsome. Terrence Stamp, he plays a hilarious character in one of my favorite movies, Bowfinger. Oh, my God. Oh, great. Welcome to Mind Think.

Oh, my God. I love that film. It's so good. It's so Think. Oh, my God. I love that film. It's so good. It's so good. We've got to cover it. I know. Does anyone want a Bowfinger episode? Let us know.

Directed by Frank Oz, the before of Miss Piggy. Like, what are you doing here? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so great cast. And yeah, I really like this movie, despite its flaws. I will say this is what I, you know, always tell people about Priscilla is it is a great movie to watch with friends, like watching a group because the music's so great.

The dance is so great. The mood is great. It is a fantastic movie to see in like a huge group. Like if there's like a movies in the park or just a midnight film or and I just want to throw it out there if anybody wants to organize a big screening at a venue for priscilla queen of the desert fly me out to introduce to a pre-show whatever i love this film it is so great to see as a mass group experience it's just one of those films that really like just begs to be seen with 300 people yeah i would absolutely love to see this movie with a crowd oh

my god it's a classic it's a damn classic it's i can't believe it's 30 years old this year it's wild and i mean i would i also would love to see the musical holy shit yeah yeah if you're a fan of this movie definitely check out the documentary as well it's a very um it's a fun complimentary companion piece indeed does this movie pass the battle test i already made a case for when they drive priscilla it passes yeah i mean i guess it depends on if you count mitzi and felicia when they're like in their drag personas speaking to each other. If you consider that a pass, I'm fine with it. Obviously, drag is a subversion of gender. So I'm like, yeah, I'm fine with that.

I would consider their conversations a pass. It passes regardless because Bernadette has conversations with Marion brief conversation with Marion and also Cheryl who she beats in that drinking contest so yeah it's not the warmest interaction but yeah no no and and I think her interaction with Marion's pretty passing you know like what is the stage like? Big or something like that. But yeah, I mean, it certainly does pass. And I, yeah, I think regardless of where you land on that, it passes. I think this passage happens in sort of a blurry area of the gender spectrum. Like it's somewhere, I wouldn't say like, I would say maybe it passes like the Schmechdel test.

Like it's so, it's so close. Spiritually, it's a clear pass. Yeah. The Schmechdel test. We should start introducing that. Right? But what about our nipple scale where we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens? I think I'll go like a three or 3.5 on this

one. I appreciate its place in history and how it helped move the needle on queer representation in mainstream media. Although, as we've discussed, there's some very of the time elements of it and also not of the time yeah i mean the racist and sexist portrayal of the cynthia character justice for cynthia having the aboriginal characters mostly just as scenery and backdrop while the focus is always on the white characters. I think I'll land on a 3.5 nipples. I'll give one to Julia Cortez, who played Cynthia. I will give one to Alan Dargen, who was an Australian musician and seems to be playing himself question mark in this movie because if you look on IMDb his character is credited as aboriginal man but they call him Alan which is that person's real first name so I'm like is is he just a cameo as himself we're not sure but uh

one nipple to him I'll give one nipple to my crush, Guy Pearce. I hope he is not problematic. You always run the risk of saying you like a man, and then you find out later that he's horrible. So hopefully that's not true. And I'll give my half nipple to Hugo Weaving. I'll go three and a half on this as well. I mean, on the movies I like, it's higher

than that. But I think for all the reasons we've discussed today, it's a classic. It's a stepping stone movie that led to more thoughtfully inclusive movies. But there's so much to love about this movie. And I guess I will just leave it at that because we've been talking for an hour and a half. So I would give it three and a half. I'm going to give one to Priscilla the bus, who is recently discovered and is now going into a museum, as is her right. I'm going to give one to Julia Cortez. I will give one to Stefan Elliott. And finally, I would like to give my last half nipple to Cindy Pastel, who is the inspiration for Tick slash Bitsy

and is a cool testament to how this movie sort of captured a lot of the drag scenes and characters and people that Stefan Elliott loved from his formative years and put them in a classic movie, which is always cool.

Yeah, Matt, what do you think? You know, I think I'd be inclined to assign it to Nipples. And one of them goes to the three heroes on the bus and they can distribute it like an evenly broken up pie chart amongst themselves. And the other to the Australian Outback itself. And, you know, rising, rising like Ayers Rock above the desert is the center of that nipple going out to to Australia, just the country for, you know, embracing this film.

Hell yeah. Amazing. Well, Matt, thank you so much for being with us. This was so much fun. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on and giving me a reason to talk about this movie. It's been a big part of my life ever since I discovered it. Thanks to RuPaul and VH1.

Wow. I love that. Where can people follow you online, check out your work, tell us everything? Yeah. So I've got a video from a couple of years ago that I did on YouTube about this film I make videos on YouTube about the making of movies and television from a queer perspective so you can find me just search for my name Matt Baum on YouTube just had one about Howard Ashman and the making of Little Shop of Horrors and The Little Mermaid incredible work thank you so good and I'm working on one now about my so-called life, the TV show. So that'll be coming soon. And you can also get my book. I wrote about the history of queer characters on sitcoms. That's the book's called Hi, Honey, I'm Homo. And I've also got a podcast called The Sewers of Paris, where I chat with queer folks about

entertainment that's important to them. So you can find The Sewers of Paris wherever you listen to your podcasts. Nice. Amazing. Yay. Thank you so much. A pleasure. Come back anytime.

Happy to. You can follow us on Instagram, mostly these days at Bechtelcast. You can go to our Patreon, aka Matreon, where we do two bonus episodes every month on a brilliant, amazing theme. And that's $5 a month. Plus, you get access to our back catalog of bonus episodes. There's over 150 at this point. All for $5 a month at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast. And you can get our merch at tpublic.com slash bechtel cast and you can get our merch at

tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast never too early to holiday shop and with that uh let's let's hop on the bus let's go let's go back to sydney and raise our young son shall we yes? Yes, while singing ABBA. Bye! Bye! The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan,

with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus, and a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch, right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question, starting October 3rd. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out, like Ezra Klein, Jen Psaki, Astead Herndon, Karl Rove, and David Axelrod.

But we're also going to have some fun, thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric, starting October 3rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Guess what, Will? What's up, Mango? I've been trying to write a promo for our podcast, Part-Time Genius, but even though we've done over 250 episodes, we don't really talk about murders or cults. I mean, we did just cover the Illuminati of cheese, so I feel like that makes us pretty edgy. We also solve mysteries like how Chinese is your Chinese food and how do dollar stores make money? And then of course, can you game a dog show? So what you're saying is everyone should be listening. Listen to Part-Time Genius on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Back in 1969, four young musicians from Texas were hired to impersonate the British psychedelic rock band The Zombies.

It was one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. And now, the entire story has been uncovered in a new podcast. All episodes are available now. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search true story of the fake zombies and start listening. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project.

All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence

is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.