The Bechdel Cast - Saw

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

This week, we're playing a little game and unlocking an episode from the Patreon aka Matreon on the movie Saw!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th 2017 was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unearthed the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. What was that?

That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can Kay trust her sister or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller

from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos,

host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. On the Bechdelcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them. Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

or do they have individualism? The patriarchy's effin' vast. Start changing it with the Bechdelcast. Jamie, let's play a game. What? The game is... I just woke up. I don't know where I am. No, you have to play the game and play by all the rules. And the game that you're playing is releasing a Matreon episode about Saw, which will be the inciting incident that we have to cover all the rest of the Saw movies on the Bechtel cast.

And if we don't do that within six months, Jigsaw will kill us. Usually I feel like if there's one thing jigsaw loves is to chop off a leg it's his favorite it's one of yeah it's one of his favorites welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jigsaw jamie whoa my name is caitlin saurante nope that didn't work no i like it saw rante let's let's fucking go yeah let's do it and it's true today we're playing a game the game being unlocking a matrion episode because the way that the characters in saw movies have to unlock Chains and shackles and boxes. Da-na-na. Da-na-na. Da-na-na. And yeah, we do this every so often.

And if you enjoy this episode, it's just Caitlin and I. We're talking about Saw Obviously. It was recorded last year. Saw-viously. Saw-viously. And if you like the sort of like more casual tone of this episode, that's what you can expect from our Matreon hot plug incoming. Yes, we have a Matreon patreon.com slash Bechdel cast where every month Caitlin and I based on a theme that always definitely makes a lot of sense. We talk about two movies. So if you go over there right now and you enjoy this episode, you can go and get over 150 episodes that are not on our main feed.

And it's only five bucks a month. Come on. What a bargain. Come on. So, yes, this is our Saw episode that we released around two years ago but since two oh my goodness it was your birthday you did it for your birthday month in august i believe i was right to coming up on two years ago yeah so quickly before we get to the episode let's do a little bit of housekeeping this episode is a little more informal. So in case you haven't listened

to the show before, weird place to start, but hey, welcome. This is our podcast where we talk about your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. But this time it's like a spiky little lens that could kill you. Oh no. Yeah. Oh no. The The the saw test where if you don't play Jigsaw's game, he'll chop off your limbs. Yeah. He'll do something really terrible to you because he is not an ally, which is actually true. I feel like I've seen people be like, actually, Jigsaw is an ally because he hired a woman and you're like that's not how that works jigsaw is lawless he's anti everyone yes he's he's anarchy he's chaos it's true so jigsaw plays by the saw test we play by the bechdel test except we don't even really do that except for talk about it for three minutes every episode and then the rest of the time is us having serious discourse but also goofing sorry it's discourse

oh my gosh what if jigsaw had an air horn that would be so that would have to be like and then we can't make any more movies if we give jigsaw. Okay. Anyways, what's the Bechdel test? It's a media metric sometimes called the Bechdel-Wallace test that first appeared in queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel's comic in 1985, Dykes to Watch Out For. And it was intended as a bit, as a goof. And there are many versions of the test. The one that we use is this. Do two characters of a marginalized

gender have names? Do those characters speak to each other? And is their conversation about something other than a man? And then another little caveat we give is, is it a narratively meaningful conversation, which we prefer over like throwaway dialogue that might pass the Bechdel test and that's where they get you and that's where they get you and we'll leave it at that but before we cut to the episode because Kayla and I are very invested in Saw yeah the franchise spoiler alert we're talking about Saw because we really like it and it's been almost two years. So let's just like rapid fire some Saw updates. I think the first thing that comes to mind is we just saw Saw the Musical together. That's right. Saw the Musical on Broadway. And by Broadway, I mean a very small theater

in Los Angeles, California. Ever heard of it? Very small space. Impossible to pee mid show. Yes. And that's why i missed the last like 20 minutes of the show because i had to pee so bad i was so close to pissing my pants and so i had to like dive over a row of people as like the show's climax was climaxing and and it was climaxing because it was a very horny it was a parody musical so it was like horny and queer and like it was great I highly recommend if you live in LA it goes up in New York and I believe a few other cities around the US in San Diego like it's it seems to be making the rounds if it's still making

the rounds and it's in your town you gotta go see Saw the Musical and I need to see it again because I again I missed the last 20 minutes because i had to go pee and then i didn't feel comfortable coming back in because i felt like it would have been disruptive to the show because it was a rather small theater so i was like well i'll just have to guess at what happens i'm guessing someone saws their foot off yeah it doesn't severely deviate from the narrative but like don't take my word for it yeah seesaw the musical again seesaw seesaw the musical um okay your turn for a saw update okay i dressed up as jigsaw for halloween boy did you the most

recent halloween that we had brag oh and i went to a party that was within bicycling distance of my apartment so i it wasn't a tricycle and that was my horrible blunder but i did ride a bicycle to the party so i'm like rolling up as jigsaw i did not know that that's so funny yeah i forgot i forgot because didn't we pick you up from that party or i'm trying to remember it was a different one wow because we just i get invited to so many freaking parties oh yeah my other saw update is that uh and you can watch it right now on hbo max unless by the time you listen to this uh hbo max has deleted more stuff but i was a writer and producer on a show called teenage euthanasia it's a great show two great seasons and in our second

season i pitched and successfully executed a character named jug saw and i think by the name you can sort of guess what jug saw's whole deal is girl jigsaw jug as in like jugs as in big old honkers okay big old honkers yeah i mean i would say i i can't say anything else i refuse to say anything else let me just grab the name of the episode in case you need to go watch jug saw she has a whole story come on trust me we've been doing this podcast you think i'm not gonna write jug saw a complicated backstory and a problem with her mother of course i am of course from now on all stories are about jug saws and their moms and their moms it's drama um okay so the name of it is viva la flappinista

season two episode six of teenage euthanasia go check it out amazing and just check out the whole show it's fun um we got canceled that's fine sorry about it whatever the saw episode do you have any other saw updates i have two oh okay well i guess we also didn't talk about saw x well yeah that's one of them so uh since this episode was released on the matron saw x aka saw 10 came out we both saw in theaters not together unfortunately saw we both saw saw x now what did you i don't remember your review of saw x i thought it was bad but i still loved every second of it like it was not a well-written movie i think it was one of the weaker installments in the franchise but um i did pay money well no i probably didn't pay money i went to see it with my

amc a-list stubs membership i know i always because we come to this place for saw for magic you know these days nicole is watching she's watching austin butler elvis i saw her watching lady gaga star is born the other day oh they have even more they just keep switching out her movies whoa okay i also saw saw x i also thought it was maybe not so awesome so awesome like but like i'm not saw some saw movie is still better than or i'm gonna enjoy myself more than 90 of movies because it's just really fun to like show up in a movie rubbing your hands together being like now what is he gonna get up to and it's always something he's always gonna get up to something um so I thought it was good

I thought in conclusion I thought it was an awesome perfect movie I love Tobin Bell. I love that he's still sawing after all these years. He's 81. Whoa. Yeah. So he is like, he is in it to win it. I hope we have a lot more Saw movies with Tobin Bell. Same. Okay.

Do you have any more? That's all my Saw bits. Okay. Yes. My final one is that, so our mutual friend Bryant and I often watch movies together and we kept being like should we watch a Saw movie and we would go and see if it was available to stream anymore and most of them are only available to rent and so you pay $3.99 to rent it and we're like okay there's got to be a more cost-effective way to do this because I don't want to spend $3.99 on like 10 Saw movies. So what I did

instead is I bought one of those like Blu-ray bundles with the first eight Saw movies on Blu-ray and it was only like it just makes sense it was like $12. So that's violent. I know. It's kind of an insult to the Saw franchise, but I made the investment of a lifetime and bought this eight Saw movie bundle on Blu-ray and Bryant and I are working our way through it. You're welcome to join us at any time, Jamie. Yeah, please. I think you're out of town. I think I was out of town when that started.

Where did you guys leave off? We have so far only watched Saw 2 together. So there's so there's a lot oh oh so the door's wide open yeah okay until jigsaw slams it and says game over slam slam okay well yeah i'm i'm in i'm joining in saw three the second you're home okay great i can't wait um but yeah those are all my saw updates and um so what we also do generally when we release a matrion episode to the main feed is we'll just kind of edit it a bit because we're sometimes matrioning out a little too hard

in different points of the episodes a lot of uh sidebars not like what we've been doing for the last 10 minutes which is all very on topic about feminism well it's on topic for saw at least so yes we'll edit out some chunks here and there some of it's like references to something that's like a year or two old that kind of dates the episode so i kind of i try to get rid of as much of that as I can. So I cut out a little bit at the beginning where I pretend to be Jigsaw and I say that we have two hours to finish the episode or else the episode will be too long

and the consequences will be dire. So when you hear references to that later on, that is me doing that hilarious little bit. Why don't you just do it now? Tell us. Jamie. What? It's me, Jigsaw.

Oh, no. I'm also Jigsaw, but you're in charge. And it's also, we're playing the game for ourselves. We have to complete this episode within two hours or else the episode will be too long and it might be annoying for some listeners. Oh, no, we've never made an episode too long. It'll be a new experience. Yeah. So we better get started.

Yeah, we better get started yeah we better oh and then right when we cut in is us talking i guess questioning if saw one is actually a good movie or not so this is where we will i know how dare we even question it that's as close as we get to being edgelords we're like is side one even good i regret it i regret it yeah it's great and you'll hear us say many things to that effect um but yeah that's where we cut in so enjoy the episode definitely caruana galizia was a maltaltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhurts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up?

Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago.

We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from?

Like what's the history behind bacon-wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. Our podcast, Hungry for History, is back. Season two. Season two. Are we recording? Are we good? Oh, we push record, right? Okay.

And this season, we're taking an even bigger bite out of the most delicious food and its history. Saying that the most popular cocktail is the margarita, followed by the mojito from Cuba, and the piña colada from Puerto Rico. So all of these things. We have, we think, Latin culture. There's a mention of blood sausage in Homer's Odyssey that dates back to the 9th century B.C. B.C.?

I didn't realize how old the hot dog was. Listen to Hungry for History as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Saw is, um, oh no, now I'm getting nervous. I was like, I thought the first Saw was like pretty well written. Yes, but I refuse to acknowledge any of the plow holes in Saw. Okay, here are my gripes with the writing of saw although i think most of my gripes have to do with the acting which is atrocious from most of the characters or the actors who is your least who is your least favorite i mean i feel like we have to make an exception there for the legend the icon tobin bell as jigsaw his performance is kind of untouchable

sure and i can't really be hearing anything negative about it but everyone else is doing a horrible job who do you think is doing the worst job i think the guy who is clearly not an actor and who co-wrote the screenplay. Lee Wannell? Yes. I think he's doing. In this house, we stan-le Lee Wannell. But yeah, he's not a very good actor, is he? He's not. But Carrie, you will.

Oh my God. Oh. I listened to the, I didn't finish it. I'll be full disclosure. But I listened to, I I didn't finish it. I'll be full disclosure, but I listened to, I watched this movie last week and then I watched half of it with the commentary track with Lee Wannel and James Wan. And it's so cute because they're such good friends,

but they say Carrie Elwes, Elwes, Elwes, Elwes, wait, Elwes, but they're Australian. So it could be a pronunciation thing. It tripped right off the tongue for them. It was very easy for them. They're like Carrie Elwes. Elwes. Elwes. Elwes. Wait. Elwes. But they're Australian, so it could be a pronunciation thing.

It tripped right off the tongue for them. It was very easy for them. They're like, Cary Elwes. The thing about him is he's really British. And that's true. And you can tell that he's a British person because he's letting his accent slip through on almost every word. Oh, they're fighting for their lives with the accent.

I don't know why they had to be canonically American because Lee Whannell is Australian. And once you know that, you're just like, oh, he's like crikeying out the whole time. Like, just let them speak in their natural accents. And it's so wild because you know that like, Lee Whannell literally made that choice for them on purpose. Yeah.

They were young though. Like, it's so wild. james wan is a like a middle schooler when he directs this he's so like he's like 26 but that's like wild yeah they're like pretty fresh out of film school right because they because james wan and lee wannell i feel like also there's like is it wannell what Wannel Wannel I don't know well I'm trying to do like a Bennifer thing where it's like love that we're kind of marrying the two names together as just like Wannell love that Flea okay hello oh and Flea freaking loved it too and you know that's gonna that that's gonna be loud and that's gonna too. And you know that's going to be loud and that's going to pick up.

Yeah, you know that. Sorry, he's stressed out because there's been someone next door just absolutely hammering something for about six days. Do you think it's someone building a saw room? Do you think it's Jigsaw's production designer? That is like one of my, i'm sure that there is either a very good or a very horrible sketch about that somewhere like who's setting up jigsaw's traps you could you know that they tried that on mad tv i would i would bet money on it and if not

jamie you just wrote a sketch oh god it's almost like it was almost too easy but yes they're so young when they make this movie i just think it's beautiful to set james wan on his journey to you know being one of my favorite directors ever he oh my gosh he's the best what was the other movie of his we covered on the show aquaman oh my gosh i always forget that that was his movie me too me i always forget that he's aquaman man but he is aquaman man but um but yeah he okay so his directorial resume is pretty wild i'm just gonna rattle some stuff off please saw saw three okay okay he only directed saw and saw three which uh not coincidentally are two of the best ones saw two is pretty iconic as well saw one through three are good

and then so the rest are also good i've i'll get into this when we talk about our histories with the Saw franchise. But I've seen way more Saw movies than you might expect. I'm very excited. I'll tell the full story. Oh, I can't wait. Okay, so sorry. Saw, Saw 3, Insidious, The Conjuring, Insidious Chapter 2, Furious 7, question mark, The Conjuring 2. Oh, yeah. Fast and the Furious 7. He directed one of the Fast and the Furious 7, question mark. The Conjuring 2. Oh, yeah.

Fast and the Furious 7. He directed one of the Fast and the Furious movies. I did not know that. Yeah. I knew Aquaman. I knew the Conjuring franchise is all him. Malignant, one of our faves from last year. Oh, Malignant was the best movie of 2021.

One. Yeah. I think. We should cover that this Octoberober malignant was kind of a perfect film credible i didn't really have any negative thoughts well actually i had a lot of negative thought but like in a good way yeah yeah yeah i didn't have a single critical thought i was like all i thought all i thought on a loop was he did it again. Anyways, but enough about how obsessed I am with James Wan, even though I forgot one of his biggest movies in the space of the last minute.

What's your history with the Saw franchise? Okay. I saw Saw. Oh, I used to make a joke and this might even be something that if I like dug through my Twitter, I could find, but it's like a little dialogue where someone says like, not a little dialogue, like person A sees, I've seen Saw 2. And then I respond by saying, I saw Saw 2 too. Okay, that's good. That's a good joke if I do say so myself.

Okay, so there's no way around it that joke rules i saw saw right when it came out i don't think in theaters though but like is ah but i don't remember it was 2004 what month did it come out let's see let's see it was october i think it was like halloween season yeah 2004 makes sense it's pretty scary i mean i would say yeah scary so i would have just started college i would have been like a month into college and i feel like i was like probably too stressed out to go to the movies so i i don't think i saw it in the theaters i think i would have remembered that yeah i mean i don't think that i don't think i saw it in the theaters i think i would have remembered that yeah i mean i don't think that i don't think that this movie would have calmed you down no but i i saw it on dvd as soon as it came out on dvd probably a few months later because i remember like all the buzz

about it and so i saw it and i remember thinking the twist at the very end when jigsaw gets up off the floor the dead body you thought was a dead body the whole time the reveal he starts to stand up i was like oh my freaking gosh biggest twist in cinema history we're not saying oh my freaking god it was it was good it's one of the it's one of my favorite twists ever it's so unexpected it's it's truly do you think tobin bell was in the room the whole time is he that good oh he's like i'm committing to this i am in character all it's he's like method acting this man has been in 9 000 movies but his most iconic role is saw interestingly he lives in massachusetts he's like the king of a town in massachusetts

whoa and then they have to like fly him out they're like oh you want jigsaw he just lives in whatever jigsaw mansion in massachusetts one of this is this information comes from a very credible source aka my brother's friend okay all right okay i was talking to my brother catching up with my brother's friend side note my brother's friends are getting hot don't love that oh okay yeah but but he was like did you know that jigsaw is local and i was like relevant to my interests so i continue okay so i saw saw shortly after it was released and i was like relevant to my interests so i continue okay so i saw saw shortly after it was released and i remember thinking it was pretty awesome especially oh my gosh like the music as jigsaw standing up and it's like iconic john williams could never in his life john williams found dead in a ditch after hearing the

theme from saw unbelievable so i took it upon myself to continue to see the saw movies i'm not sure if i ever saw any of them in theaters but there was a span of time where I was, I mean, and it was a long time and longer than maybe anyone else was getting Netflix DVDs delivered to their mailbox. Yes, that's true. You were getting Netflix DVDs while this show was airing. Yeah, I since stopped, but I was getting them well into probably like 2016. I mean, blessed. getting them well into probably like 2016 i mean you know blessed 2017 maybe even so blessed i saw saw two two and saw three and saw four and saw five i think i stopped at five i think i stopped at six but i but then i was reading the description

for six and i was like honestly i could have seen this but also right that my recall after three gets a little fuzzy i had to read through some of the things and then did you see spiral i did not watch spiral i did not see spiral i i wanted to but it came and went in theaters in like a blip and i i completely missed it and it was also i think still not a great i think it came out like right before people were actually comfortable going back to movie theaters oh maybe that's why i think it was like there was a covid timing where maybe they should have just sent it to streaming kind of thing i didn't watch it i heard it's actually very very good but i read i read a piece about it today and now i'm like oh i do um i have so many saw tabs open right now my god

um i read an article on uh screen rant that i thought was quite good by a writer named cathal gunning also a great name um But I guess that the deal with Spiral, my understanding is a jigsaw copycat killer, and they're trying to flip the franchise so that this new copycat killer is targeting cops, which is a good modern, I think a better take. But in doing so, and this is a small gripe i don't think it's a bad thing that spiral is killing cops and you can put me on the record there but but basically it

was done with the ethos of like well jigsaw never killed cops i'm like jigsaw spent whole movies killing cops jigsaw tortured detective donnie walberg corrupt cop jigsaw slashes the throat of danny glover cop jigsaw famously does not like cops jigsaw said a cab but he also said all innocent people are bastards also so he's just sort of like he's like all cops are bastards but only because they fall under the umbrella of people all people are bastards apab except my wife um okay so kind of jigsaws approach so i saw so many of the saws up to five maybe six because Because I remember being like, Caitlin, what are you even doing? But I kept watching them because each Saw movie has the most unexpected twist you've ever seen in any movie.

Like, they just know how to twist. How do they keep doing it? I know. How do they keep movie after? And like, the movies do get worse and worse sure as with any franchise i feel like horror franchises are commonly associated as often getting much worse and more convoluted but i don't think it gets as bad if we're doing pound for pound next to other horror franchises it could have been much worse i mean the halloween

franchise oh my god the most recent two after they tried to reboot it the most recent halloween movie is one of the worst movies i've ever seen in my entire life i didn't see the second one i thought the first one was fine i was like oh it's i liked i liked hearing jamie lee curtis say trauma and other than that i was and i love danny mcbride right i love david gordon green and i love judy greer but i didn't like the movie that one was like okay ish to me but the second one in this reboot series pp pp poo poo wow yeah disappointing and there's still one more and oh no one's gonna want to see it but saw even though the storytelling you know gets a little bit wonky you know the movies

decline in quality the quality of the twists stays top notch i agree so i felt compelled to keep watching saw movies because i was like, oh my gosh, there's no way they're going to top this twist in the movie prior to this one. And then they do. It's just like, oh. Although I hadn't seen the first Saw

since like 2005 and I remembered very little about it except for Jigsaw standing up at the very end and being like, Hey, it's me. Game over. And then you're like, slam. So that in a very long story is my history with the Saw franchise. Jamie, what about you? Oh, I was a late comer to the Saw franchise. Jamie, what about you? Oh, I was a latecomer to the Saw franchise. I was not, I mean, as I've said on the show before, I was not a horror girl growing up. I've become a horror girl as an adult.

My franchise of, so I only had like, I don't know what this logic was. But I only had room for one horror franchise in my formative years sure and I was a final destination girl I didn't have room for saw right it was a hard line final destination girl started seeing them with final destination three iconically the tanning bed one slash the roller coaster one it's awesome and then and then I proceeded to see the rest in theaters and loved those movies. Did they hold up? Not even a little bit. Nowhere close to Saw, I will say.

But there was one, my first serious relationship in high school. Thank you so much. So it had been in 2009 or 10 and story time i've probably told you this story before and then sometimes i forget i'm like oh someone people are listening to this so i do have to say it again so in high school i worked at a skating rink. Ice skating or roller skating? Ice skating. Thus Zamboni culture. Right. Well, and also my dad is a hockey reporter, grew up around Zambonis, a lot of formative experiences around Zambonis. But yeah, I worked at the snack bar. And then on Friday nights, I had to work in the skate, like high schoolers would hand you their stinky shoes, and then you had to give them

skates. And it was all my classmates. and it was maybe traumatizing and humiliating because people would really delight in giving jamie their stinky shoes and while they were going on dates with my crushes and i had to smell their shoes nasty anyways i'm over it though so anyways had a crush on a boy who his name is Steven I've literally made shows about him so anyways he came to the skating rink one day and we were not yet dating and he was like very sweet awkward high school boy and like tipped me one dollar and I was like oh my god what I'm bad at this job and um then he was like hey I don't know like have you seen the Saw movies and I was like no I haven't seen them and he was like oh well I was just thinking if you ever want to come over my house or something like we could watch the Saw movies or i don't know and i was like okay

and then whenever later i went to his house and he spent five saw movies five whole saw movies no pee breaks getting the nerve up to kiss me i was there i got there at like wait 1 p.m yeah and it was like 10 at night and then we finally kissed but we watched five saw movies in a row we did take a pee break i was being dramatic but like but we watched you marathoned five saw movies in one day yeah and then and then and then i and then i got a kiss i mean perfect day it was kind of an awesome day in the end honestly by the end I was a little by the time he put in because he had all of them on dvd it was a weird ultimately it was a weird date um but it was very sweet that it took someone five saw movies to give you a little kiss

but yeah takes me five minutes into a saw movie to give someone a kiss these days. I mean, I wouldn't even get to the twist. But yeah, in this case. So anyway, I saw all five in one day. And then I just kept revisiting them over the years. I think I saw six at one point. I definitely fell off the Saw franchise. I don't think I'm alone there. So wait, how many are there now oh boy uh let's see because i think that there's through they're like the titles are confusing wait let's see okay so we have saws one through six then you have saw 3d which is technically saw seven and that one i don't think i've seen but i've heard is quite bad then there's jaw, which is supposed to be the worst one. And that's like an origin story question mark.

And then there's Spiral, which is a post Jigsaw copycat killer. And that's the one with Chris Rock. Okay. I don't know. Jigsaw was on my radar as something that existed. He's one of the hollywood reporters stars to watch it was on the um you know like eight saw movies that you can't miss

saw 3d i had no idea was a thing They did the same thing with Final Destination. I was supposed to say Fatal Attraction. What? Yeah, they did the same thing. I think that that was just like during the 3D boom in the early 2010s. Like after Avatar came out, they're like, oh, everything successful needs to be 3D now. And they all kind of sucked, including Avatar. Right.

Okay, so there's Saw 1 through 6 and then saw 3d jigsaw spiral yeah so that is nine saw movies total in the sauna verse yeah the sauna verse i think it's i hope they make more they gotta make more sometimes you're like kill the franchise enough is enough i can't imagine getting to a place like i probably won't see them but i would be sad if they stopped making them yeah i'm now tempted to for halloween this year do a saw marathon oh that would be so fun oh oh we would have what a time we'd have what a time watching all the sauce and then we would have to kiss after the fifth one just because i don't know how else to act after five saw movies

i mean consistency is important so yes i consent thank you uh yeah let's let's do it i'll have a a sawn-a-thon yay oh okay so our history was it's hard like i think we'll try to stick to the first movie there are like certain elements of jigsaw that i feel like you can't not discuss further installment because you find out i mean jigsaw look do i agree with the actions he took no did he have some points i think so i think he had some points now did he need to lash out like that no that's i had this whole jokey premise that i was going to try to start the episode with by being like jigsaw's male privilege what where does this guy get off thinking he can just set up all these elaborate little games that take 27 days to set up canonically according to the production design department and then start killing people that's patriarchy in action but see my version of that is like you know how like viola davis's instagram feed is just a lot

of like very like inspirational or like very mom hey are you struggling like then remember this these five things to help you you know get through the day or just like i love very much like her instagram it's great yeah and it's just very like healing and like, I want to help you. And then Jigsaw, his whole thing is like, he seems to want to help people or like show them how to be appreciative, but he's doing it in the most violent way possible. And I'm like, that's toxic masculinity you know literally he's like he is like um I don't see people practicing gratitude very much better kill them like it's he ultimately you know it's we we here at the Bechtel at Bechtelcast Industries cannot endorse the actions of one

John Kramer like that is not okay no and we want to go on the record as saying that was not okay what John Kramer slash Jigsaw did but did he look good doing it kind of indisputably yes did he sound good doing it oh my gosh Jigsaw's voice don't get me started do do do do do do do do Tobin Bell who plays jigsaw yeah okay so first of all a massachusetts local as we've learned i want i wanted to confirm i didn't i didn't want to speak out of turn it's weymouth weymouth massachusetts okay a good town a good town i think but he um so he's like one of the he's like an iconic character actor who eventually became best known for being Jigsaw, which is incredible. But I'm trying to think of another example of this where he like came up with a ton of like prestige actors.

And like he studied like the Strasberg method in New York. And he's like he's like very classically trained he did Meisner he did all of the random acting things that I know 0.1% about yeah but he was like on Broadway he came up with Ellen Burstyn and Jessica Tandy he like came up with all these kind of legends did small character parts and then didn't pop off until his 60s when he began to play the iconic role of jigsaw so it was a role he was born to play he's a lifetime member of the actress i just love that jigsaw is a lifetime actor uh member of the actress studio that's like yeah and you know what else that's the type of thing that on her instagram viola davis would be

like hey if you're worried that you just like haven't quite made it in your career yet tobin bell didn't become jigsaw until he was 62 years old don't stop dreaming honestly i was thinking about this because i just had my la anniversary and. anniversary. And I was like, oh, what if me seven years ago knew what I would be doing now? And I'm like, hmm. I would kind of be on the fence. And that's how I think that might be the unintentional reaction of like, well, if you work really hard for 40 years, one day you can be jigsaw. And I think I would be like, I might just like have a family. I don't know.

But good to know anyways yeah james tobin i mean but why not both he does have a family wait what did i call him is his name tobin bell sorry okay i said james tobin what am i i don't know who's that james james wan mixed with Tobin Bell is what just happened. Also, there's a comedian named Tone Bell. Yes. Who I keep wanting to call instead of Tobin Bell. Anyway. So the point is, Jigsaw, iconic. Yeah.

Little Jigsaw, more iconic. The puppet you mean, who rides a tricycle the way they try to explain the doll i think it's in like saw three or something it's a mess i'm just like just let the jigsaw doll be a doll it's supposed he's like oh well i i made a doll for my son but then my wife had a miscarriage because this franchise has serious issues with like needing to punish and abuse people suffering from addiction issues. Yeah. That's a big note I have for the soft friend cheese. Yeah.

But there he was like, yeah, I made this doll for my son, but then my wife had a miscarriage. And so now I'm the doll here. Like, Oh my God. Jigsaw. Jigsaw jigsaw the thing okay i was gonna propose the jigsaw test oh yeah please and it states if jigsaw appears on screen

he's gonna want to play a little game and yeah gonna be a little sick and twisted. I mean, every Saw movie passes this test. Every Saw movie passes this test, and I hope that it stays that way. I don't want, that's, you know, some things need subversion. That, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't want to see the movie where Jigsaw goes to therapy

and learns that he should stop playing games. I do feel like the Saw franchise was ahead of its time in many ways. Because I feel like right now we were talking about it with the Halloween franchise where they're in this process of, and I know some people like it, some people don't. I'm ambivalent towards it. you know examining post-traumatic stress for horror movie characters and like introducing the idea of trauma into horror that like didn't exist in the original franchise as much but i feel like saw that's canonical saw two you find out the source of jigsaw's pain you find out that he like i mean don't get me started on what happened to jigsaw see i don't remember despite having seen many of the saws i don't remember the only thing i remember about saw

two is that there's like a bunch of people who are trying to escape different scenarios and they're like we were brought together for a reason and it's like kind of them trying to figure it out but beyond that it has to do with corrupt cops. It saw two. Okay. But the approach I need, I didn't rewatch saw two. So I hope I'm not mischaracterizing it.

Cause I had to reread the, I haven't seen saw two easily in 10 years. Yeah. But the premise of it is that jigsaw again, I'm just like, it's convoluted. He's going to play a little game he's gonna so there's all these people trapped in a house that's slowly filling with gas they seem to have

nothing in common detective donnie walberg's on the case and donnie walberg's son is in the house turns out donnie walberg is a corrupt cop the house is full of people that he is knowingly and wrongfully framed for crimes who have since been incarcerated an interesting premise why does Jigsaw feel comfortable furthering the torture of these innocent people lives by filling a house with gas

look his methods are convoluted it's a sick twisted game and do most of the people who have already wrongly served time in prison die in the house they do yeah but there was an idea there it was like what i was saying is the software tries attempted to comment on corrupt cops at several times now was it done successfully and the case of saw two absolutely not didn't really make a lot of sense but they reveal jigsaw's backstory and saw two and sort of at

the end of saw one because they're like he was a patient of carrie elwes and he had an inoperable tumor so that's his whole thing but there's a whole convoluted story that happens with his wife and a miscarriage and his marriage falls apart and they all blame it on one recovering addict who then jigsaw later kills in a very brutal way but that's the jigsaw's way he finds it like i i didn't remember this one there's a whole saw dedicated to letting a father exact revenge on the drunk driver and the judge and the like lawyer and jury because his son died in a drunk driving accident. And it's just like Jigsaw's like go nuts. Kill the cop. Kill the judge.

Kill the driver. Like. Yeah. So that's focused. Okay. Jigsaw's whole thing. The clock is ticking, Jamie. The clock is ticking.

We've been recording for 39 minutes. Jigsaw. Also, commentary on American health care for some reason. Jigsaw has a bad doctor who like gives him a like doesn't i forget if it's if they either catch a tumor too late or they tell him a tumor is inoperable when it is not either way it's like a negligent doctor situation that jigsaw's found himself in so he believes he has an inoperable tumor his marriage has fallen to shit and he attempts to take his own life by driving off a cliff he lives and then he has a realization which is that he's jigsaw and so he so i think that for the most part he spends the rest of his life which

i believe ends in saw three and i remember there's a scene where amanda who's in the first movie yeah i believe she has she has to do like brain surgery on him or something anyways he dies um but he spends the rest of his life being like people are so ungrateful and yeah i'm god um and that's male privilege. Anyways, that's Jigsaw's deal. Not that it really becomes relevant during Saw 1 until the very end. Wait, we should recap the movie. Yeah, let, was murdered.

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Do you ever wonder where your favorite foods come from? Like what's the history behind bacon-wrapped hot dogs? Hi, I'm Eva Longoria. Hi, I'm Maite Gomez-Rejon. Our podcast, Hungry for History, is back. Season two. Season two. Are we recording? Are we good? Oh, we push record, right?

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also this is one of the longest recaps i've ever written i tried to condense it i just but like there's just so much in there and most of the movie happens in one room and yet so much happens and it's genius anyway okay so we open on a guy waking up in a bathtub full of water in a dark room he doesn't know where he is or what's going on he's very freaked out yeah he hears a voice the lights come on it's carrie elwyn mcgregor i love that you i forgot that you also can't say it i yes i can say ewan mcgregor i cannot say carrie i had a physical response to hearing you say that man's name correctly because i just know i can't do it it's just ewan it just happened again like my

stomach turns i had to have like a physical response even like looking at his name makes me just nervous okay so okay so it's carrie l l west l l wills ls ls i'm not sure okay so there are two men in a room it's a disgusting dilapidated bathroom both of the men are chained to the wall or to something like pipes by their one of their feet they also see a dead body lying in a pool of blood in the middle of the floor we don't think about this we don't think about this for hours we know it's there but yes we don't it's in our periphery but not in our main line of sight for most of the movie oh henry couldn't come up with this twist it's the greatest twist it is i don't disagree okay in one hand the dead man is holding a gun and he seems to have shot himself in the head hence the large pool of blood he appears to have lost jigsaw's game exactly yes

yeah in the other hand he is holding a tape player now carrie ill i think we should always refer to him as his as his full name and i don't want to remember i was like what is his character's name because i just keep thinking Carrie Elwes well I'm going and Adam I do think of the other one as Adam did you as you were watching this were you just like this is is this the is Nathan Fielder jigsaw it was a passing thought I had it was I could just I was like fast forward 20 years in nathan fielder's career is he jigsaw and let's not rule it out movies are just long episodes of nathan for you is that perhaps the rehearsal season nine has stunning power this is a clickbait piece from the future this this the rehearsal

season nine has stunning parallels to saw three in this essay i will uh i feel like nathan fielder he doesn't have jigsaw energy but no jigsaw methods it could get there anyways okay so carrie will is like i'm dr lawrence gordon i'm a surgeon yeah and the other guy is like i'm adam and he is played by lee wannell wannell lee wannell sure i mean i'm just i'm going wannell wannell sticking to it he wrote the screenplay and co-created the story with james wan anyway lawrence and adam introduced themselves yes and they try to figure out why they might be there who their captor is and what they want from Lawrence and Adam they then discover envelopes that were placed in their pockets Adam's envelope has a tape Lawrence's has a tape a bullet and a

key they try to unlock their chains with the key, but it doesn't work. So then they get the tape player in the dead guy's hand. Adam plays his tape first and it's a creepy voice who we will learn belongs to Jigsaw. I like how every time I refer to the voice, you start humming the theme song as if it's the voice which which it famously is not that i i want a jigsaw i'm unfortunately on ebay as we speak

i'm paying attention but i'm also shopping for a jigsaw doll. Oh, yeah, of course. Well, hey, it's your birthday coming up. Maybe hold off on buying yourself stuff. I almost bought... Look, I'm not saying I've bought you a jigsaw doll yet. Please bring it to my birthday party at Medieval Times. Bring a jigsaw doll to Medieval Times. I feel like it would be a hit. I almost bought a

doll earlier this year when i was working when i was in the trenches on my my with my female jigsaw character yeah and i almost bought something off of etsy called baby jigsaw but then i decided too scary didn't buy it oh my god i think it's time to design some new merch similar to the queer icon Baby Grinch. Baby Jigsaw is so funny. I feel like in the same way that you're like, Baby Gru is not going to work, but it works better than Adult Gru. Baby Jigsaw? I don't know.

Could work better than, it would, you know, it would, it would kind of fuck with canon, but give me a chance, James Wan. Let me write the baby jigsaw franchise. I guess that's kind of Chucky adjacent, but I'm okay with that. Yeah. Hmm. All right. Sorry.

What's happening? So the creepy voice on the tape player is saying to Adam, basically, you're a pathetic loser and you've done nothing with your life and maybe you'll die today now lawrence's tape is pretty harsh really harsh that's causing jigsaw you know he it's it's it's tough but fair he's a fair he's a he's a vengeful god but but you know he's a fair god okay so lawrence's tape is the voice saying you have to kill adam and you have until six o'clock to do it and if you don't do it alison and diana will die so we are already in we're damseling the whole family there is a subversion of that later on but for the majority we've we've double damseled the elwes ladies correct yes so it says that and then jigsaw is like by the way x marks the spot for treasure let the game begin we're like what is he talking about whoa and then i love this guy

and then in a whisper he says follow your heart and then they notice a heart my mom says that they notice a heart drawn on the toilet next to adam and inside the tank are two hand saws which they use to try to saw through their chains but the chains are way too thick and strong and then Lawrence realizes their captor doesn't want them to cut through the chains he wants them to cut through their feet awesome what was that horrible james franco movie where he had to do the same thing and it was like nice try oh that was based on a true story i think someone really had to do that yeah that is definitely a true story 127 hours correct if i had to cut my own limb off, I would take comfort in the fact that... It's what Jigsaw would have wanted.

Jigsaw vibes. I'm channeling Jigsaw right now. But it would not be good. Yes. All right. Now that I've made that insightful comment. Yeah. All due respect to the real life person who had to cut off their arm in that scenario.

Yeah, I know. i'm mostly saying i hate james franco yeah yeah yeah for sure he james franco should cut off every appendage got his ass on his body got his ass yeah okay and he should cut his ass off too exactly all right so lawrence All right. So Lawrence starts to realize, or he starts to, you know, kind of suspect who might be behind this. We flash back to various crime scenes where a few detectives, including Detective Tapp, played by Danny Glover,

and Detective Singh, played by Ken Lang, they find the victims of the jigsaw killer and this killer's whole thing is that he wants to punish his victims for something they did some vice they have or something and he will jigsaw loves to punish people struggling with addiction it's one of my least favorite things about jigsaw yeah he's got some work to do yeah um so what jigsaw will do is devise an elaborate and horrific escape room like scenario you forgot iconic and iconic um he basically builds little escape rooms and he puts his victims in them and they are usually unable to escape and they end up doing something to kill themselves in the process

because they have to climb through razor wire or they accidentally light themselves on fire stuff like that i feel like he kind of i wonder how inspired that was by like charles manson kind of stuff of like well i didn't do the how can you prosecute me for being a killer i didn't do it myself when it's like no jigsaw no no jigsaw you are a killer yeah do you remember at some point well i guess you weren't i i was embarrassingly back in the day, a big Gilmore Girls fan. And I think it's Saw 4 where Luke from Gilmore Girls enters the Saw universe. And you're just like, what? Yeah, they really rough him up.

You thought they roughed up his heart on Gilmore Girls? Well, all I'll say is if you were Team Christopher on on gilmore girls you were loving saw four five and maybe six because they were they were really handing luke's ass back to him he was like an associate of detective donnie walberg these movies describing these movies does make you sound like really disconnected from reality but they put like he was the guy that i also have a list of like best saw kills and it was kind of refreshing my memory a little bit um he was this guy the guy that they put the cube on his head do you remember cube head was that from saw two no i think it's from like four oh then but they all really blend together for me it's it's funny because you can see his like

bad hair plugs even in this like grainy shot um i also feel like embrace balding luke right here's a thought that i just had which is that um i feel like a lot of what they do on jackass is not unlike yes what jigsaw does to his victims. Cause I didn't see the Jackass movie, but I just remember like I saw the trailer a million times and there's like a scenario where they like pour honey on a guy, strap him to a chair and then put a grizzly bear in the room with him. Or there's a part where like they put a box around someone's head and then they put a

tarantula in a tube heading toward it so i'm just like this is jigsaw stuff the new jackass movie was i thought pretty fun um and also it now the parallels are are kind of blowing my mind because i later had sex with a guy as an adult in b Boston who made me watch two jackass movies before he would kiss me on the mouth. Whoa. Do you remember? And then bleep that out. I don't remember this person, though. Oh, well, he did improv and he didn't have a bed frame.

And I watched two jackass movies with him. He had he had also like not i mean what i we were all broke but there's different ways to be you know whatever he was a real he was a real i think classic maybe not a winner yeah because his he'd in lieu of a tv stand he had a stack of jfk conspiracy books anyways absolutely was in love with him for some reason nice oh the last thing i was gonna say was i feel like on one side of saw adjacent you have jackass which predated saw and i wonder if you would imagine that the writers at some point would have to go to the jackass well for inspiration um and then on the other side i think you have kind of the because i mean correctly probably uh saw was criticized in its time for being torture porn now this is this is a good point um but i

think that the success of this movie because this movie made its budget back 100 times yeah so fucking wild but it influenced a lot of other horror franchises that i think like leaned into the torture porn with no attempted commentary and i'm thinking of the hostile franchise yeah same yeah i know that i was reading the wan and wannell that's what i'm gonna call them the boys the best friends the w's they drew inspiration from seven oh i haven't um which is one of my favorite thriller is that what's in the box yeah what was it what was in the box i'm not gonna spoil it. Oh, okay. That'd be really funny if there was like, a ton of listeners that were like, no. Okay, so we learn about Jigsaw's MO. Yeah, we get another flashback of Dr. Lawrence,

talking to med students, maybe about a patient who has terminal cancer and yeah like an inoperable tumor put a pin in that yeah as turns out he's the problem he's too busy cheating on his wife to give jigsaw a correct diagnosis and then we also meet very briefly an orderly named zep good name uh who comes in and he's like that patient you're talking about um actually his name is john and he's very interesting and when you're watching the movie you don't think much of it as you're watching it but then when you're re-watching it you're like important yeah i would say john is a little interesting i guess i would say that because he's jigsaw there yeah so then detectives tap and sing question lawrence because he's a suspect in the jigsaw case because his pen light was found at the scene of one of the crimes at one of the escape rooms

but lawrence has an alibi that checks out and it's implied that he is having an affair yeah but he's deeply ashamed of the affair yeah and that's a whole thing for him lawrence is then asked to listen to the testimony of one of jigsaw's only victim to ever escape a woman named amanda who turns out to be his associate what i don't remember that oh my gosh amanda's in a bunch of them because she ends up because you know how she's like jigsaw helped me and then she like kind of becomes his sidekick for several, I think up until his death. Okay. I do kind of remember that. And then I don't know.

I don't remember. Assuming she dies at some point. But she's in Saw movies. Right. Everybody dies. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Whether you're in a Saw movie or not, guess what?

You're going to die someday. You're going to die. Just hopefully not in a oh i was thinking of this one i don't remember what saw movie it was do you remember the pile of syringes the syringe lake kind of yeah someone had to crawl through the syringe like oh baby that was not that was that was unfortunate yeah sure thing um this this is also when we see the little jigsaw puppet guy who comes pedaling into the room on a tricycle and we're like we're like yeah we're standing we're cheering yeah we cut back to the present with lawrence and adam in the room They figure out that there's a camera in the room and that they're being

watched presumably by Jigsaw. Adam finds a Polaroid of Lawrence's family who have been like kidnapped and tied up and there's an X written on the back of it but Adam doesn't show this to Lawrence right away. Then we get another flashback with lawrence and his daughter she's talking about a scary man that's in her room lawrence comforts her and puts her to bed and then was i the only one that felt that i felt that i was i i didn't look this up but carrie elwes is um parenting i found to be patronizing and creepy he's like what do you mean i would never abandon you and your mom and i was like okay this girl's she's too old to be spoken to like that i wasn't sure if you could like chalk that up to just like his poorly written character or carrie ellis's really bad acting or genuinely

i mean his character and this is giving him too much crap but like his character is full of shit so maybe he's like I should sound like I'm kind of lying because it sounds like he kind of maybe could bail on his family like he doesn't care about them as much as he should although I'll say my least favorite actor in the movie in like this scene specifically but there's a few scenes where the woman what is um because i don't want to spend the whole time saying his wife um what is his wife's name allison allison yeah so the first scene allison is in i don't know what was going on there but she that acting was what was going on there she was like she was like carrie elwes you can't this is bullshit i can't believe that you are you're met you're messing around on me like it was just like total dead fish she said energy that she was

bringing to the role her performance later on it gets kind of good once she gets a gun she kind of she kind of wakes up i agree i thought she was good in those scenes but earlier yeah there's a scene where she's like don't stand there and try to convince me that you're happy scream at me and tell me you hate me at least then there would be some passion and like that was delivered at the same like that was her delivery also at least then there would be some passion i'm like oh i'm like i'm breaking up with this lady this is not helping there also how did they get danny glover to be in this movie and how dare they kill him so early and they're how did his character is also like bizarre weird and at some point they're like this character's kind of like jigsaw you don't want to hand it to jigsaw

but jigsaw's like this guy's a weirdo and i'm like oh no i kind of agree um he's he is he is acting a bit weird yeah it's very cartoonish yeah okay so we're in this flashback where we see lawrence interacting with his family we see him and his wife allison have an argument their marriage seems to be very tense it seems like she suspects him of cheating and she's right storms out and she's right he storms out then a scary man who is hiding in the little girl's closet abducts lawrence's wife and daughter torments them a bit and then we see that it's zep that orderly from the hospital oh yeah so we are thinking okay zep is jigsaw i guess then we flash back to detective tap studying the video that jigsaw made and showed to amanda the woman who had escaped and tap discovers a clue that leads him and detective sing to what appears to be jigsaw's secret layer in an abandoned mannequin factory so that was my i was like again iconic iconic and i'm like oh he

found that a mannequin and then made it into the little jigsaw puppet that was sort of what i was thinking must have happened which is the easiest explanation but i don't think that's ultimately the one they go with i think that they're just like no it had to do with his they made they connected it to like jigsaw trauma like he could just find a mannequin it seems like they were all around yeah but also the jigsaw doll what would that have been for at any point a haunted house Like that's the only thing I can think of. Right. Oh, because also Jigsaw has this mask of like a pig's face that he puts on to abduct people.

And then there's also the puppet. And then Jigsaw also just sometimes wears like a hooded trench coat kind of thing. Nothing wrong with that. He's got a lot of different personas, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, he's got a lot of he's he's got a lot of different personas i guess is what i'm saying yeah he's got a lot of fits he's got a lot of looks the fashion oh my cursed youtube video the fashion evolution of jigsaw there wow another great sketch i really love cursed youtube and like there's those videos on like i think it's like the vogue channel where they bring in huge celebrities when it would be interesting and more interesting if they brought in Jigsaw. And they're like, whatever, like, Nicole Kidman breaks down 10 iconic looks from across her career and it's fine. Yeah. But if

you brought in Jigsaw, Jigsaw breaks down 10 iconic looks from his career as murderer. Hang on a second. If we're talking abouticole kidman's iconic looks obviously the most iconic one is the one that she wears in the amc theaters oh you know it commercial the pinstripe suit with a little bit of glitter and did you see that she got picked up for an additional year for that i'm like what does that even mean is that they're gonna be like they're shooting another one i don't know or they just need to like license her likeness so they can show it forever. I kind of would be like sad if there was a new one. I'd be excited, but I would miss the old one.

What if there was a whole franchise? AMC one, AMC two, AMC three, up until AMC six and then AMC three D. And then they'll be like, okay, we had to ease off this franchise. This is getting to be a bit much oh my god i look saw is so fun okay so wait where do we leave off in the story of saw jamie you've been recording for 72 minutes oh no the clock is ticking did i show you my picture with jigsaw i posted it earlier this year oh here you keep talking i'll send you my jigsaw picture okay thank you so much okay you're welcome so they go to jigsaw's secret lair yeah there is a man there another one of jigsaw's victims

he's about to be killed jigsaw shows up there's a big scuffle where the detectives save the victim. They're chasing after Jigsaw. Singh is killed in a trap. Jigsaw slits Tap's throat and ultimately escapes. So then we cut back to the present where Tap has survived, which is wild because his throat was cut so deep i always kind of forget that because it it defies logic by so much like i was i mean i don't get me wrong i was happy to see that danny glover was still in the movie but it really is against all logic that he's still in the movie that injury would almost certainly kill i'm not a doctor but

i really i'm no dr lawrence gordon played by carrie illwiss well good because then you would misdiagnose jigsaw and then you and then you'd be in for a real ride there i oh god jigsaw he's so complicated he's so complicated okay so tap survives he now has a big scar on his neck and he is now obsessed with this case it has completely consumed him and this is where the character gets very cartoonish and weird and just some weird choices are made sure okay so we cut to the room again lawrence is like okay we need to figure out this whole x marks the spot thing which they find by turning off the lights and they see an x on the wall and glow in the dark paint lawrence busts open the wall and finds a box in which is a cell phone a couple cigarettes and a lighter adam is desperate to smoke the cigarette because he's stressed because he's so stressed but there's also this ominous note from jigsaw for lawrence about the cigarette and how lawrence could maybe

poison adam with the cigarette and the poison that's in the blood and blah, blah, blah. So Lawrence, first he tries to make a call. He tries to like call 911, but turns out this phone is only for incoming calls. So then Lawrence hatches a plan to make Jigsaw think that he's poisoning the cigarette with the blood from the dead guy lawrence has adam play along he smokes the cigarette he pretends to die but he is horrible at faking it yeah it's such a bad job i think that he's supposed to be bad at it in the movie and i was like that's a good fake death that was a good fake death yeah he really phoned it in you would have thought though that because lawrence is a doctor and you would think he would know how long it would take for like a poison to

take effect and what you would probably not a good doctor he's a canonically shitty doctor and meanwhile and he and also if anyone's gonna know a bad actor actor, it's Tobin Bell. He studied Meisner. As did the character Jigsaw. He's falling for Lee Whannell's bullshit. Oh, I wish. Wouldn't that be great? Oh,

I, we don't have time there. Yeah. Jigsaw is not, is not falling for it. Not having it. No fucking way. He doesn't fall.

And he punishes adam by electrocuting him via the chain which is also apparently has an electrical current going through it yes who knows yep so then we get the reveal that adam has been photographing lawrence and he knows who lawrence is even though he pretended not to right then the cell phone rings it's lawrence's daughter and wife and allison confirms this that adam knows who lawrence is and it turns out that adam had been taking pictures of lawrence's indiscretions the past few nights for danny glover question mark right and so i don't know if that's supposed to be another red herring where it's like maybe tap maybe it's jigsaw i guess i never even thought

maybe that is i don't even know at that point you're just like i'm just i i kind of forget that we're supposed to be wondering who jigsaw is i'm like i almost don't care i just i just am like waiting for carrie elwes to have his ass handed to him. That was another interesting... I do think the swings that the Saw franchise takes at trying to say something but never quite saying anything is interesting, where Jigsaw is so lawless that he doesn't really have a code of ethics other than practice X Games gratitude at all times.

But I do think he's you know he he jigsaw does not like cops probably partially because he's wanted but on that front jigsaw and i are a united front um yeah but he does not like danny glover for being i don't even like all cops are corrupt in this specific case he's just like acting really weird he's too into it and you're like why are you like spending possibly your own money but then also like kind of taking on like surveillance and like adam deserves to die because he colluded with the cops but then also you do get from adam the fact that he's like well i've been put in this position because of a class issue i don't have any fucking money what am i

supposed to do and then with carrie elwes you have the idea of like shame and like is it right to surveil someone against their will even if they are doing something fucked up no it's always wrong but carrie elw is also not a great guy like just everyone in the soft franchise is complex and bad i just think it's good like it's good it's simply good they're but they're like they're not there's no i mean i guess there's it's not that there's no value judgments it's that there's only value judgments. And they're mostly coming from Jigsaw himself. Jigsaw. Jigsaw kind of above criticism, in Jigsaw's opinion.

Yeah. You know who's never having to play a little game? Jigsaw. Until I think Saw III. Anyways. I cannot wait to rewatch all of these movies. Okay. So we've learned that Detective tap is is no longer a cop

first of all and he's paying adam to surveil lawrence for reasons for reasons i think tap still thinks that lawrence is jigsaw i think so yes i think he thinks that the whole time and i mean that is i guess true to shitty cop logic of just and and that is explored and later so wait this is blowing my mind that's explored in later saw movies where like danny glover has in his mind who he thinks did the crime and he's exhausting every possible resource to arrest who he thinks did the crime so he can close the case which happens all the time. And then Saw 2 is all about how Detective Donnie Wahlberg does the same thing. And it's like put people in prison and ruined lives.

And then unfortunately, Jigsaw fills a house with gas and they all die. So that, again, that part was confusing. But Jigsaw does not like lazy cops he does not yeah okay where are we we're almost done with yeah the recap okay so the clock strikes six which is when lawrence was supposed to kill adam by jigsaw's got an early bedtime he's like i've got a dinner he's gotta watch big bang theory i've got dinner plans two and a half men is on at eight and i'm not missing it so we gotta wrap we gotta be done yeah so zepp calls the cell

phone and has allison tell lawrence that he failed since he didn't kill adam in time but allison has untied herself and fights back against zep and there's a struggle detective tap comes in who had been monitoring the whole situation so he goes over to see what's going on. There's a big shootout, and Allison and Diana have a chance to escape. But Lawrence is listening on the phone. He hears all the gunshots, all the screaming, and he assumes the worst. He thinks that his family is being murdered. Sure, he doesn't know.

It's almost like he forgets that there's a little game going on. And that's on him. He does seem to forget yeah so thinking that his family is perishing he takes the saw and saws his foot off so that he can escape no way around that he then he does he also takes the bullet crawls over to the dead body, loads the gun, and shoots Adam, thinking that that will be a good idea. I'm like really not. Sometimes I'm just like, what was he going for there?

And Adam seems to sort of, I mean, understandably kind of feels the same way. He's like, no. He's like, what are you doing? Don feels the same way he's like no he's like what what are you doing don't and he's like i yeah wait a second what is happening right now what are you doing could you could you stop excuse me could you stop stop oh jigsaw okay wait okay so meanwhile tap is chasing zepp who we still think is jigsaw yeah he catches up to zepp there's a scuffle and tap is shot and killed yeah so then zepp comes into the room to kill lawrence because he was too late he didn't follow the rules he didn't kill adam by six o'clock but oh wait adam is still alive and he attacks and kills zep yes so then lawrence crawls

away to find help because he's bleeding to death and adam has been shot and he's like i need to go find help carrie elwes is the last girl in this movie which is interesting well no i feel like it's actually adam i guess oh yeah that is true yeah but also i'm just thinking like because carrie elwes i believe is later revealed to still be work i think he goes to work for jigsaw what that's a twist hold on no wait i might be i might be misremembering that there's some there's a cast member that you think couldn't possibly come back that does and those are the twists of the saw franchise and that you love to see and these are the saw moments we love the most yeah no he does he doesn't die yeah he i think later goes on to

i think that i don't know if he does it willingly i don't know if he like i forget if he like joins the like jigsaw ethos or if jigsaw is simply punishing him for having told him that his tumor was inoperable when it wasn't which was you know he was right to be mad he was right to be mad yeah because if carrie elwes had been a less shitty doctor jigsaw wouldn't even be a thing is that the catalyst that gets everything going for jigsaw yeah it's when jigsaw is so um he attempts to take his own life after learning he has an inoperable tumor that wasn't actually inoperable. Right.

And then it's after he survives that accident that he becomes jigsaw. So not that it, Carrie Elwes is being a shitty doctor kind of sets off the chain of events that leads to jigsaw. But we don't, we don't learn that until a later saw movie yeah that's not that's i i don't think that they thought there was going to be more saws but they made up for it by making some of the best movies ever okay so lawrence has crawled away he's bleeding to death although apparently doesn't die then adam searches zep's body for

a key to try to unlock his chains but what he finds is another tape player he hits play and it's jigsaw's voice a message to zep yeah giving him a game to play so jigsaw had poisoned zep and said i have the antidote and you have to kill allison and diana in order to get the antidote so basically this is the reveal Zep wasn't Jigsaw after all. No. But who is? And then. Then get ready for a montage, baby. The dead man who has been lying in the pool of blood in the middle of the room throughout the entire movie stands up. He's Jigsaw.

Yeah, but who is that? He's John, the patient in lawrence's hospital who has terminal cancer and he gets up and he's like adam you suck and and you are gonna die and then he he says game over and then he slams the door leaving adam to perish afi's top 100 movie lines game over game over slam oh my god yeah my blood pressure is spiking okay so i just looked up lawrence gordon because i was like it doesn't come up for a long time okay so lawrence gordon in the saw universe yeah still canonically alive so what lawrence gordon this is from scholarly journal wikipedia lawrence gordon is the man who diagnosed John Kramer's terminal cancer and was initially a suspect in the Jigsaw murder case.

Of course. John targets Lawrence for being cold and uncaring to others and for cheating on his wife, Allison. Lawrence is placed in a trap. Blah, blah, blah. His fate is unknown until Saw 3D when it is revealed that Lawrence passed out after using a hot steam pipe to cauterize his ankle stump. John found him unconscious shortly after and congratulated him for surviving. He then helped Lawrence recover and gave him a prosthetic foot. John recruited Lawrence afterwards and used his medical skills to prepare other traps.

And this we don't learn until Saw 7? Until Saw 7. What? prepare other traps and this we don't learn until saw seven until saw seven what yeah because i was i was scanning wikipedia earlier and i'm like oh i guess he lives but he like they there's also like flashbacks to the first saw movie in almost every saw movie right which gets confusing so after even though jigsaw's in every movie jigsaw dies in the third movie yeah but you see flashbacks so tobin bell is still getting those checks but he's canonically dead right carrie elwes can be brought back at any time really i think that that is such a wild but yeah so then he's like brought on to the production design team for jigsaw basically yeah who's on jigsaw's team we don't okay we have to talk about the movie um okay there's actually we've we have like say what you will listeners we have had some interesting discussions yeah so far i i think

that like truly again i i don't think that the saw franchise until apparently spiral which i now want to watch was never like trying to explicitly tackle one social issue right because jigsaw is um it sounds like such like an understatement to say morally ambiguous um jigsaw it's hard to kind of know what his moral code is um and you can quote me on that um but but i do think it's like interesting that in a movie from 2004 that there are these attempts to i think subvert classic horror tropes where it feels like it's playing on our expectations of, you know, in horror movies, I feel like we are often,

it's often assumed that we are going to side with the police detectives, assume that they are good at their jobs, that they are morally upright, all this stuff that is like inherent to copaganda, which I kind of was like i wonder how i forget how on danny glover's side we're supposed to be it's pretty ambiguous like it is pointed at like it i don't think that we're supposed to hate him i don't think we're supposed

to be rooting for his demise i think we're supposed to be on his side even but he's also like real i i was sort of struggling with it this time i could believe in 2004 you were supposed to but i think it could be read in a lot of different i think i think the intention is that all right me defending soft i think the the intention of the the filmmakers is for danny glover's character to be even after he gets like booted off the force and he's doing his weird like ongoing investigation where he's mostly just like he hires like TMZ to like spy on Carrie Elwes for no right and he also seems to know that because he's like surveilling Zep and it seems like he because he's like what's this guy doing in this? I don't know. That all got confusing.

But sensing how I think the filmmakers intended for the audience to perceive the various characters, I think that we are supposed to be rooting for Detective Tapp slash Danny Glover. Not as like the protagonist, but like. Which does make sense because casting Danny Glover. Right. I feel like also yeah it does kind of tell you that like you're not gonna put danny glover in a movie and then be like we hate him because he's so canonically loved right okay then i guess i'll i totally see what

you're saying but i do think that in retrospect there's a lot of different ways to look at it sure and as the series goes on there are more explicit criticisms of police brutality and like corruption, propaganda. Yeah. Like and and also there are tropes at play in this movie that are subverting nothing. So so there's there's a pretty intense damseling. I mean, I guess that you could argue everyone in Saw is a damsel to an extent because that's kind of Jigsaw's whole thing. But it does seem like Cary Elwes' family, his wife and his daughter, are damseled in the more traditional sense. They are kept captive in their own home and they don't appear to have skills to get out of the situation. Which, I mean, why would they kind of thing but

that's true for me they didn't go to jigsaw boot camp like me i dare you put a bear trap on my head not a problem not a problem i'll be at dinner on time there should be sort of like kind of like a self-defense class but it's like a jigsaw defense class like if you get trapped in a jigsaw trap this is how you get out of it and that should be a class this is another mad tv sketch from 2007 that we should have written it's just not fair okay so my i see what you're saying and i think what this is this is the big thing for me in this movie that i think otherwise holds up pretty well it's that the the female characters and particularly his wife and his daughter are mostly there to provide stakes for yes one of the male protagonists they get captured they get held

hostage i would say at least his wife allison fights back against zep she gets herself untied and in a way that's like realistic and didn't seem like magic you know right we're right like she manages it because it kind of like happens gradually and it all feels like it tracks um so she gets herself untied kind of tricks him a little bit, you know, waits for the opportune moment, springs a little trap on him, grabs the gun from Zep, holds him at gunpoint, fights with him because he kind of fights back and grabs the gun again. She then grabs a pair of scissors and stabs him in the leg while he's kind of incapacitated and then also distracted. It is a household object kill it is but it's not it's yeah it's not good it's not one of those like traditionally like feminine ones that we see a lot where it's like oh well a woman is would be in the kitchen cooking

with a frying pan frying pan kind of thing so it's scissors because women be crafting that's my that's my that's my disingenuous read uh honestly if i if like women be scrapbooking therefore uh exactly so so she stabs him with scissors and then he's like you know injured and then also i think this is when dannyver comes in. So Zep is distracted. And this gives Allison a chance for her to grab Diana and run away. So she manages to like fight back and escape on her own. Again, Danny Glover comes in right around then, but he doesn't save them. She saves herself and her daughter. Yes. So I felt like that was kind of out of the ordinary for what we would generally see.

Partial credit. I'll give partial credit on that because I do agree that they are, they're like damsel for the majority of the movie. They're not characterized outside of giving Carrie Elwes stakes. There is kind of an attempt made at that especially with the relationship between Lawrence and Allison but it feels so just like half-baked and tropey it's mostly like off screen too it's mostly just like what you hear an argument they're having while Diana's in bed and like yeah yeah, well, you know, an attempt.

Sure. But not amazing. Not amazing. It's not amazing. Controversially not amazing. Did you know, you want to know something about Lee Wannell? Tell me.

He wrote and directed the invisible man. Starring. Yeah. He's still at it to these day to this damn day. To these days. To these days. To these days. Thank you for you for i was like maybe i didn't say that there but i did um i love that lee wannell and james wan they are friends till the very end because lee wannell's eventual he writes he writes the first three saws honestly wan and wannell or wannel depending on

your mood they really they really set a strong foundation for the saw franchise the first three saws the original saw trilogy yeah is incredible it's the full story of jigsaw um sorry uh women yes um no i i it's it's there was an attempt made and i guess the best that you can say for it is it was good for 2004 yeah i guess but maybe i think some tropes were subverted some were very much leaned into as far as like the characterization of women in a horror movie yeah so i i found that to be the most kind of glaring issue with this movie other than that like i kind of the other trope that stood out to me i mean i think that this movie is still a majority white cast there is uh there is some diversity in the movie however it did sort of like this is a trope i think we've discussed on the show at some point but the frequency that

people of color and like black actors specifically are cast as cops yeah as a way of kind of tacitly endorsing the police industrial complex which obviously has an adverse effect on the black community in a massive massive way and so you see a lot of characters who are cops who are played by people of color in not to pull a page from jane's wand book but in a bit of an insidious way you might also say that it's kind of malignant yes and it's conjuring some doubt for me but that is i mean that is a that you know i'm not gonna say that this was done intentionally to like i don't think that they were trying to do that i just think it is like a common trope that is often kind of overlooked and they die they both die like the two main

characters who are people of color are cops who die so right we don't love that i have a feeling that james wan his only intention i'd imagine was to just have some inclusive casting as a person of color himself and also have danny glover in your movie by any means necessary like obviously and also i i will say in in because i'll defend james wan till i absolutely die like lee wannell wannell and james wan are australian they very well and and young they may not have been familiar with the dark history of the American policing system outside of just like movies many Americans were not aware who were not directly affected by it you know sure but so I don't think this was done intentionally I just wanted to yeah point it out because it is it's like i don't want to knock inclusive casting right but

all are you know i mean i guess in the context of uh the police industrial complex danny glover is supposed to be a hero that you know what i'm saying it's it's a it's a complicated issue that this movie is like not a particularly bad perpetrator of it's just whatever very complicated discussion for sure but i did want to point out that our two main characters who are people of color are cast as cops who die yeah and i did that did ping for me too but then i thought about everyone else who dies or lives well although i mean as far as the people who live, I guess it's... Apparently Lawrence lives. Jigsaw?

I mean, as far as we can tell in this movie, just isolating this movie, Adam, I think we assume, will die because he doesn't escape the escape room. It was kind of giving some ex machina, pre ex machina. Right. Yeah. He's fucked in a similar way to Donaldald gleason uh-huh it really seems like lawrence is going to die because he is so close to bleeding out we'll wait till 2010 comes around turns out he cauterized the wound and passed out kind of the only people who survive are... Allison. Allison and Diana. And Jigsaw.

And Jigsaw. So we do have... Whatever. Again, this is like, I don't think intentional in the story. It doesn't seem like any of these parts were written for anyone of any particular race. Right. But it just, yeah, it just always feels like worth noting. Yeah. I mean, it's worth pondering for sure oh also the other character who we haven't talked about carla song who is

the student that carrie l was is cheating with right so that is we know nothing about this care i mean i it is basically all of the women in this movie, except for Amanda, who we should talk about, are there to flesh out Carrie Elwes' failures as a man. Sure. And Carla Song in particular is sort of there just to be like the student that he's having sex with. She has a couple of lines.

He's mostly mean to her. It is framed as bad. That is why Jigsaw, like Jigsaw is very pro Carla Song. You think? Because guess what? This isn't the last Saw thing she appears in. Per Wikipedia.

She shows up, I think, in a video game. So here's what happens. Oh, whoa. Carla Song is a medical student at St. Eustace Hospital and Dr. Lawrence Gordon's mistress. She plays a larger role in the video game Saw II Flesh and Blood, where she is targeted by Jigsaw. OK, Jigsaw. So Jigsaw is actually not Team Carlos Song.

Let's find out why. Where she is targeted by Jigsaw for stealing vital pharmaceuticals and selling them on the street for profit. She is found by Michael Tapp. So this is like, is this a prequel she's found by michael tapp with her arms secured to the ceiling of an elevator shaft and her legs secured to the roof of an elevator oh my god michael is tasked with completing a test in order to release her safely if he fails the elevator will lower and tear carla in half it is revealed that she is a part of a criminal conspiracy. Oh wait,

Danny Glover's character's name is David Tapp. So maybe Michael is his son? Brother? Tapp is a very specific... Okay, wait. Who the hell is Michael Tapp? This is so awesome. Michael Tapp is Detective David Tapp's estranged son.

There, it's the Saw universe. Don't underestimate it. You think Carla Song was a throwaway character? Well, I did too. Guess what? She gets ripped in half by an elevator. She was not forgotten by Jigsaw. And that's why the twists in Saw are the best in the business.

She shows up in a video game five years later. Are you joking? The most brilliant cinematic universe ever created. Last female character that, oh, also Amanda survives. I do think we have a lot of mostly white survivors. I will say. That is, yes. And they are mostly women, which is good.

And they do all, I think, eventually die because it's salt. You just give it a couple years. Their days are numbered. Diana, I actually don't know what happens to her. Maybe there should be a reboot. Maybe that's what I do. Maybe that's what I'm working on. Okay. Because they're alive um okay so all i have to say amanda is our last female character and i think our last

character that we haven't really discussed very much right which i think will be a conduit by which we can well i mean we're approaching the two-hour mark jamie i've been recording for one hour and 48 minutes okay the clock is ticking the clock is ticking and at the end flea tears his own fur off and it turns out it's jigsaw oh what a twist okay so amanda yeah amanda uh is an interesting character i feel like for as as much as i love talking about the song expanded universe let's just talk about her in the context of this movie because in the subsequent movies she turns she becomes an associate she becomes like one of jigsaw's minions stream rise of grew uh well do you think she's more of a kevin or more of a stewart or more of a bob oh that's a good question thank you for asking um i would say she's not she's not a kevin

i wouldn't say that she's like well no actually she may she may be close to kevin because she does have leadership qualities later on but she doesn't need to be in charge. But she is kind of the head minion. And that's how I would describe Kevin. I think she's got a little bit of a Kevin energy. Sure. Because Bob is like the baby one. Bob is the baby.

Gotta love him. Stuart is the rebel and the rock star. Kevin, he's funny, but he's the one that picks up the phone he goes kevin le mignon uh that's such a good part below kevin le mignon it's so funny um amanda i i think is interesting because she is the only woman in the movie whose stakes are not directly tied to carrie elwes she's like the only woman who like stands on her own as a character which kind of bears out throughout the franchise because the other women don't come back she does as kevin le mignon but i also think that it's like i don't know that she's necessarily treated in a i don't know what do you

think i didn't think she was treated in a particularly gendered way by jigsaw i'm more at an issue with how they were treating her character as a recovering addict i agree although her bear trap on the head doesn't feel particularly gendered to me it just feels like yeah hey don't do that to me because she's only in one sequence and it's in a flashback where she doesn't really interact with our main characters my main note about that was um why do the detectives have lawrence watch her testimony amazing question if he's a suspect that does i i mean ultimately danny glover is estranged from his son for a reason he's bad at his job and i wonder i guess that if you play the video game wrong danny glover's son is also a bad cop because carla song gets torn in half by an elevator oh shit yeah yeah so my when i was

examining the amanda piece of the puzzle if you will if we're looking at this movie as if it's a puzzle why would the detectives have lawrence watch her testimony it doesn't make any sense um good question but yes i i don't nothing pinged for me as far as like the treatment of her character seems sexist but yes and again we are trying to examine the logic and morality of jigsaw's code of ethics which often doesn't make much sense yeah no he but i think the movie approaches he's chaos chaotic evil i maybe would have to see more of the rewatch more of the franchise but i i wonder how much of this story is the filmmakers asking the audience to be like, well, yeah, these victims, like, they're sort of deserving of where they're at. And whether or not they manage to escape is going to sort of determine like, and like how they feel about if they've, you know, re-evaluated their their life if they're going to be like deserving of a redemption so i'm not really sure where the movies land on like i feel like it is kind of like left

up to you because it's like i don't know i mean it's like one of those things where you're like well no one's leaving the theater being like jigsaw was 100% correct. But... Except for... Except for us. And the people who were are on the list. But I don't know. I feel like it's supposed to be ambiguous in a way that I think is like kind of interesting. And

the more time that goes on, I think the more reads, whether intended at the time or not, kind of become possible for the modern saw connoisseur, if you will. I wanted to say something really quickly about the guy who designs the saw traps. So Saw 1, you don't, they're all, it's such a, I mean, this movie was made for a million dollars, which is wild. Because you're like, isn't that just like how much Danny Glover would make for showing up apparently it was a labor of love carrie elwes and danny glover both very big stars danny glover more so but carrie elwes you know a well-known actor like kind of

wild that it they were in this australian movie by two 25 year olds also but i think that that's beautiful i like that yeah i also like i don't know enough about like actors salaries you hear about like tom cruise gets 20 million dollars for every mission impossible movie and then i think people assume that like most stars make that on every movie there is sure but i feel like you know like not as bankable of stars and like character actors and stuff like make a far more modest living you know and like dan and clever pretty bankable pretty bankable for sure but i don't i don't know i don't know how much he was paid for this anyways i wonder if he was kind of like in a, I don't know, or maybe it's one of those one for me, one for them. And the one for me is Saw.

Could be. Saw 1, 2004. Yeah. That would be the one for me. Make no mistake. What else was he in around this time? Yeah, I guess that this wasn't like a. Well, his heyday was more in like the 80s with like Lethal Weapon.

80s and 90s. Yeah. Yeah. So he's making his indie comeback in Saw I. And I think he, I mean, his character is so weird, but I always love watching Danny Glover. So there you go. I mean, yeah.

So anyways, Saw I, the budget is very low. James Wan literally makes the jigsaw doll himself with paper mache, kind of amazing. Saw II and onwards, I believe, they get a guy to design the traps, which is really cool. They have this art director who comes on Saw 2 through 5, which is where all the iconic ones are. His name is David Hackle. I just wanted to give him a quick shout out because he designed some of the most horrific shit I've ever seen in my entire life. They describe from Saw 2, the pile of needles that I remembered. He and his department had to spend two weeks

with 120,000 syringes, individually removing the needle and replacing it with something that wouldn't hurt the actor. Whoa. I know. What? The craft.

The raw craftsmanship of the Saw franchise. Iconic. It's iconic. It blows one's mind. Not to be underestimated. Yeah. In conclusion, I think this is an amazing movie. I love that it launched James Wan's career.

It's also rare, unfortunately, in Hollywood filmmaking for an Asian director to be making movies on this scale. But again, this movie kind of isn't on this scale. He only is making Aquaman movies now because he, you know, was up till four in the morning in Australia making a little jigsaw at his house. I think it's inspiring. Yeah. It makes me want to be better it's the kind of inspiring thing that again would be on viola davis's instagram feed it's true and apparently this was like saw was also there's something called saw 0.5 uh which i've never seen but i

guess this was like similar to what we do in the shout outs it was a short film they made that was then turned into a feature so that's how they got the million dollars to make the feature was they made a saw short and that's why lee wannell is in the movie is because he was in saw 0.5 right yes i did read that on scholarly journal wikipedia i have a quick list of just kind of stray observations okay i'm gonna just so the listener knows it is almost two hours but we'll edit it we'll edit it we've been recording for one hour and 59 minutes what are your i want to know your strays okay real quick i appreciate that there is representation on screen of men being really bad at throwing and catching because they are tossing around keys, tapes, saws, cigarettes, lighters, photographs. And the only thing that either of them actually catches is one time when Lawrence catches the tape player. Everything else they throw and catch terribly.

It's bad. And I thought it was hilarious to watch. Another thing. Adam does not wash off his hand after sticking it in the toilet bowl, which seems to be full of liquid shit. There was like clean water in the toilet tank uh but he does not clean off his hand and he just keeps it all poopy for the rest of the movie disgusting horrible allison runs so slowly to her daughter's room when she hears diana screaming when she's being abducted she does a brisk walk. Shout out to the diorama that Mr. Saw, a.k.a. Jigsaw, made of the bathroom escape room. So funny.

Which we see. What are you up to? What are you doing? I like to think that James Wan also made that himself. He was like, I just need this. Honestly, not unlikely. Based on what I have heard and read about this movie yep um shout out to the line where adam says my last girlfriend a feminist vegan punk broke up with me because she thought i was too angry. And then you're like, okay, time to kill him.

Yeah. Time to kill. Yes, exactly. Okay, Jigsaw, game over. Slam. Done. There's a part where Danny Glover yells at Zep. Also, the fact that there's a character named Zep.

So Danny Glover says, I'm going to kill you, you sick-ass hoe. Amazing. Okay, here's a fun thing did not remember that i rewound maybe that's not what he says but it sounds no i hope it no let's just say let's just say it yeah carrie well is yep plays a doctor in the movie new year's eve and I like to think that he's playing the same character in that movie and in the Saw movies. Because he lives. Right.

He cauterizes wounds. Right. Oh my gosh. And he has a prosthetic foot. So I think that the Saw movies and New Year's Eve take place in the same universe. I believe that. Okay.

I'm in. I'm in. I had a quick question did escape rooms exist before the movie saw because they didn't really become popular until after but i googled i did some research okay and it turns out kind of the first like modern escape room was something called true dungeon in indianapolis indiana usa it premiered in july 2003 but they didn't become popular until like the 2010s i would say and i wonder if saw help popularize you have to imagine escape rooms saw had a hand in it i think so if not

patient zero i also wanted to shout out the guy who plays zep was on lost and then once i learned that i couldn't i didn't notice at first but then on my rewatch i'm like wait a second i was forced to watch lost once he's on like a lot of the show he's definitely in lost also in lost is Lang, the actor who plays Detective Singh. And I was like, is the whole cast of Lost in the movie Saw? And if so, did J.J. Abrams just watch Saw and be like, now this is a hell of a cast because Lost premieres in late 2004. So what do you think about that? J.J. Abrams, james wan stand i would believe it i hope so he knows what's good for him and then my final thing is the soundtrack of the movie saw

was reviewed by johnny loftus ah and five stars right okay that's my pseudonym this is hilarious johnny loftus of all music gave the soundtrack of saw three out of five stars saying that the composer uh whose name is uh oh shit clauser don't know his first name though look Hans Zimmer couldn't do it Hans Zimmer couldn't make it happen the way that

whoever this person does yeah so the composer of the saw score quote really nails it with his creaky

clammy score which makes you think that if he thinks he nails it why only three out of five stars that shit makes me so mad when someone writes you essentially a good review and then they're like i give it a c minus and you're like for what yeah who were you said you liked it scottish theater reviewer or whomever sounds like you liked the show interesting you give it three out of five stars table flip

unbelievable johnny loftus johnny loftus it's interesting that you would say that when jigsaw is still at large i'll say that what are you implying jamie or Or is it Johnny Loftus? Jigsaw Loftus. Jiggy? Jiggy Loftus. I'm sorry that I just made you spit out your Diet Coke. Question mark?

It's all right. I'll be okay. I'll be all right. Oh, boy. Well, would you look at that? It's time for me to cut my foot off. Yeah. Oops. We did record for two hours and six minutes, so we both have to cut our feet off.

Yes, there's someone at the door, and it looks like the game might be over. The game is over. Game. Oh, my God. We didn't follow the rules. Game over. Can we start playing that at the end of every episode game over slam and then the episode's over that's basically how every that's how every

podcast episode should end game over slam oh god okay so does this movie pass the Bechdel test? I don't think so. There's, okay, hang on. Okay. So Diana goes to her mom's bedside and Allison says, are you okay? Can you hear me? And Diana says, mommy. And she says, what is it, sweet pea? But then she's like, there's a man in my room.

And then they talk about the man in her room for a little bit. then she's like i want daddy to get the scary man away so that one is up for debate because it starts out passing but then ultimately the conversation the whole conversation is about the scary man and then daddy's saving them oh there's another interaction later on where allison is like i need you to be really really strong for me but like Diana's just kind of like crying and also the context is like they're scared because a scary man is has abducted them and might kill them so I feel like probably no but there is some interactions and there's some healthy debate over on Bechdel test.com about whether this passes there's like two people go absolutely going at it in the comments trying to decide whether those two scenes you just described constitute a pass or not i'm gonna say it doesn't constitute a pass

unfortunately i agree yeah i i look it's a flawed metric and But it's also not a feminist movie. Like, you know, this movie is an ally to no one because it's about Jigsaw, who is an ally to no one. He has no love in his heart, except he does, except he practices. I feel like Jigsaw is the bad side of wellness culture because he's like practice gratitude but he's absolutely diabolical scariest person in the world but always screaming about gratitude okay nipple scale whoo tough wow i feel like this movie defies the scale i honestly kind of do too um i mean there's not that much that made me feel horrified from a representation standpoint i felt horrified no it was mostly i mean especially for a movie of this era i was expecting us to have way more

non-ambiguous bad shit to talk about because it was this era i feel like especially that regardless of what the movie was about or what genre it was in you would just have characters randomly dropping homophobic slurs making racist comments seemingly randomly like just absolutely needless not on one and one else watch certainly not so um not that that one except for that one disparaging comment from adam i think that that was like literally the feminists are angry but that was like and also that character sucks so i could also see it being like oh here's a reason to not like this guy yeah and he presumably dies at the end we're not sure i don't think he does in the universe, but who does? Ultimately. Okay. I think I just need to give this like a, is it like a two nipples?

It's so hard because you're like, but I don't, I guess, I guess I'll just go right down the middle. I'll say two and a half. There's nothing wrong, but it's also not like its mission is not to further a discussion of anything except like i beg to differ this is a feminist masterpiece i mean that is kind of what i believe but i know that it's bad practice to say so and it will decrease my credibility in the eyes of all listeners. Ultimately, I do think that this is still one of my favorite movies. I had no idea you were so into the Saw-niverse. It's weird because it really is just like Saw 1 is such a classic.

And it's not like a comfort movie. But I watch Saw about like once a year. I enjoy Saw quite a bit. And I love James Wan. And the more I feel like James Wan, I got really into late last year, because I was working with Sarah Marshall on something about the couple from the Conjuring movies, and so I got deep into the Waniverse, and those movies are not good, but I still love James Wan, so what can you do? I would give this movie two and a half nipples and 500 little jigsaws.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What was I thinking? Yeah. A 500-piece jigsaw puzzle. Exactly. See, I'd give it 1,000 pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. I really want there to be more jigsaws. Here's what I'm going to do, because you gave me an idea.

Okay. Not just the saw movies for my movie marathon this halloween season i'm going to do hallowan and then we can watch malignant again because i've never seen insidious the insidious movies insidious is pretty fun i say let's i i i would advocate for us watching conjuring one and maybe then calling it a day by the time you get to the conjuring the devil that made me do it you're like this is it's too much too much too much but you we could watch annabelle because that's pretty good i was not james wan directed but he this is part of the one of us part of the universe yeah exactly god and then he's got the new aquaman coming out at some point question mark don't know true well anyway and and i love that lee wannell like i really enjoyed the invisible man i didn't realize

that it was adam from saw question good shit also they're such good friends that lee wannell had a cameo in aquaman oh isn't that't that cute? That is very cute. I like that. They're still friends. It's cute. A hundred percent. Um, okay.

Well, Caitlin, thank you for, um, talking about Saul with me for my birthday. I love Saul. Hey, happy belated birthday.

It's, it's over now, but look, but, but, but I live on until Jigsaw gets me. Oh, what an amazing movie.

I had a great time. Listeners, we hope you had a good time because we sure did. We sure did. I think it was fine. Please sound off in the comments with what I'm sure was me getting canon incorrect. Let's discuss. If anyone has a baby Jigsaw doll doll i do have buyer's remorse for not getting it wait does such a thing exist already some sicko on etsy made baby jigsaw and i failed

to buy it and then when i went to check someone else bafflingly had purchased it so it was just like a one time one and done one and done an independent creator an artist made baby jigsaw and i fucked up and i was like i would be afraid of that which i would have been but it would have been nice to have wow i know i know okay that is the end uh or that's where we're cutting out of the Matreon episode. Katelyn! Yeah, Jamie? But wait, how much time do we have left? We're definitely over two hours.

No! Oh, no! Oh, no, here comes someone. Hi, it's me, Jigsaw. No, wait, Jigsaw, just make sure first before you kill us, please subscribe to the Patreon. Please go to patreon.com slash Bechtelcast if you enjoyed this episode.

Again, over 150 bonus episodes not available on the main feed for the low price of $5 a month. Jigsaw, please. I'll consider it. But since the episode was over two hours long, guess what? What? Game over. No!

Slam! Bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Catherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus. And a special

thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearthves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state.

Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kay hasn't heard from her sister in seven years. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do.

What was that? That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. Can K trust her sister, or is history repeating itself? There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing. They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows. That we're surprisingly more united than most people think.

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