The Bechdel Cast - Shrek the Third

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

In the most Shrekian episode yet, Caitlin and Jamie examine Shrek the Third! Come see us on tour in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle (ever heard of them??) in early 2023! Details and ticket links are at linktr.ee/bechdelcast. For Bechdel bonuses, sign up for our Patreon at patreon.com/bechdelcast. Follow @BechdelCast, @caitlindurante and @jamieloftusHELP on Twitter.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and of course, the culture. Don't miss Katherine Hahn on Las Culturistas. Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

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the patriarchy's effing vast start changing it with the bechdel cast welcome to the bechdel wow wow happy new year caitlin happy new year to you jamie we are in good sorts as you can tell we're in good we're in good, we're in good sorts. We're in high spirits. Yes. And we're covering Shrek 3. I feel like we like to bring in the new year, you know, just kind of like on a good, on a good vibe. Yeah. We want to give people something that they're like familiar with, something that makes them smile, but also something that makes them think. Exactly. We want to set a precedent and what better way to set a precedent for 2023 than with Shrek the third. Yeah, this is a very cerebral podcast. And you can tell

because of our S tier movie selection. I was being driven home by a friend last night because I don't have a driver's license. And I was, thank you so much. I was mortified at how many times in the space of one conversation I said, well, that would require reading a book and I'm just not going to do that. I mean, we famously don't read books, so.

We don't read books, But this is ultimately an intellectual endeavor. And we're trying to change hearts and minds. Yeah. Happy New Year. HNY, as it were. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Ditto. Right back at you. Oh, cute. Okay. We're using phrases this year. I don't know what i'm trying to say welcome to the bechdel cast my name is jamie loftis my name is caitlin dorante and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the bechdel test simply as a jumping off point to initiate a much larger conversation about representation and such of justin timberlake in animation yeah god i feel like this was the justin timberlake stunt casting era and he really was giving it a hard 35 in this movie he is stinky stinky stinky and that's an example

of a conversation that would not pass the bechel test. Can I tell you what it is? Please do. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel-Wallace test. Originally, it was created as a one-off jokey kind of metric in her iconic Wow. Okay. Her iconic comic. I comic, maybe. I Tanya. I Frankenstein. I robot. And now the juices are kind of flowing, right? Okay, okay. Am I awake?

It started as a bit in her iconic comic, Dykes to Watch Out For. Highly recommend it. But it's since become a kind of commonly accepted metric. There's a lot of different versions of it. The one we use requires that there are two characters with names of a marginalized gender that speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue. Ideally, an impactful few lines of dialogue. This movie, I was frustrated with how they did it but they did

yes they did do it it was mostly uh women negging each other at a baby shower yeah but they did technically do it and then negging each other in a dark corridor which is actually where i would feel more at home is good i'm no stranger to getting negged in a dark corridor. Sure. Same. If you do stand up long enough, that will happen to you actually kind of like on a constant basis. And it maybe happened to me yesterday. Oh, no.

Last night, I failed to win a $25 gift card to Red Robin. Oh oh my gosh i had a stand-up comedy show i'm so sorry i didn't have what it took you know who won who the pianist none of the stand-ups won what not fair yeah the crowd really liked the pianist well um not to completely blow up your spot jamie but yes someone was gifted a little something from a certain other someone oh my god are you shouting out your christmas gift to me yeah i am because you're plugging your gift i'm plugging the 25 olive garden gift card that I bestowed upon you for Xmas. It's true. And I'm going to use it on you with you. I cannot wait. Oh my god. I'm

thrilled. I'm thrilled. I'm laughing. I'm crying. I'm ready to discuss Shrek the Third. Shrek 3. Okay. What's your history? Sorry. Shrek the Third. It's Shrek the Third. Get it right. That was fine. That was fucked up of me. I'm sorry. okay what's your history sorry sorry Shrek the third it's Shrek the third get it right that was fine I was fucked up with me I'm sorry I mean Shrek the third what can I say I mean they if

you're if this is the first episode you're listening to of this show that's very funny I guess you know I would say I've I am a Shrek head I think I would have seen this in theaters I think this would have been I didn't start seeing the Shrek movies in theaters until it was like as a joke, if I'm remembering correctly. I would have seen the first two on like home video under duress with some cousins, I think. And then, you know, this one I would have maybe seen in theaters. The fourth one I strongly remember seeing in theaters because I believe that I let my high school boyfriend finger me at the fourth one. But that was in 2010 and I was not quite an adult. I was still a child getting fingered at the movies.

Oh, no. Well, it was by another child. So it's okay. Am I awake? I would have seen this in theaters i will say that this is my least favorite shrek i am a i i feel intimately linked with this franchise for many years now um i've given my body to it's also canon to the show we are yeah the Bechtel cast is synonymous with Shrek it's there's no way around it it's true the first time I went viral in my whole life was Shrek related like it's all connected I went to actually I was thinking about this because I went back and looked at some of my

notes because at the end of 2021 I was depressed. And you will understand why I did this when I tell you I was very depressed. I went to a 10-hour long Zoom in conference on Shrek. And there were a lot of different speakers. There was a lot. There was actually kind of like a lot of good shit. Not to, you know, send you into a panic, but I learned a lot of good shit not to you know send you into a panic but i learned a lot and shrek 3 not a heavily discussed shrek because i feel like it wasn't well reviewed and isn't very beloved in spite of almost making a billion dollars yeah but 813 million at the box office

kind of absurd but there was talk of like you know a lot of feminist discussion about fiona and shrek 3 does come up quite a bit because of how she is um she is mommy in this one she's mommyfied she's mommy pilled yeah and yeah it's just like it's honestly my least favorite shrek i feel like all the characters are underused and I feel like at this point in I'll say the franchise yeah we're like running out of things for Shrek to be bad at and yeah this one feels a little a little forced oh I totally agree all of the conflict in this movie is very contrived and it's so bizarre to me like how far this movie like the gymnastics it has to do to make it about fathers and sons when it just like did not have to be about fathers and sons they make a whole new character so that the

movie can be about fathers and sons when at the beginning fiona loses her father there's the conflict right there's the thing why are we creating and why are we making some like justin timberlake character with bangs also have this plot rewriting the arthur legend it's like i'm sorry he becomes king not because shrek is like you should be king he famously pulls a sword out of a stone no sword no stone but pro of this movie donkey has a son named bananas which and i liked that ties the minions into i did like yes exactly you man we really are close friends so synced i was like wow there is a ship wreck so i was like okay titanic is here and then it's like donkey son is named bananas i'm like okay and so they're some of the minions are here um but ultimately uh yeah this is this is a challenging entry but you know i think that it's it would be silly to cover

Shrek 4 without without kind of muscling through Shrek 3 it's true Caitlin what's your history with this movie I had only seen it once before and I could not tell you when it was sometime between 2007 when this movie came out and 2023 I would guess like I probably saw it around when it came out. Maybe like or it could have been like 2015. I don't know. Yeah. Time is a very much a flat circle. Did you like it when you did you like it when you saw it?

I don't think so because I never returned to it after that. But you know what I will return to is puss in boots the last wish which i saw it is so good it's like my third favorite movie of 2022 wow it rocks yeah i know that people are really loving it yeah we i guess um i don't know why i'm i feel constantly defensive for no reason um it has something to do with my childhood but um we were supposed to see Puss in Boots together on Christmas day but Caitlin and I both recently had COVID so if you hate this episode it's because we literally have brain damage we have post-COVID brain fog and yes that's gonna be my excuse for everything moving forward in life.

And the scary part is you may not even be wrong. I know. And that's been on my mind constantly. Anyway, Shrek 3. Sorry, Shrek the third. Shrek 3. Also, my aunt died. But Shrek 3.

I know. My condolences. The beginning of Shrek 3 reminded me because I'm the protagonist of the world. Yes, of course. The beginning of Shrek 3 reminded me of my birthday party. At medieval times, I had the same exact thought. Yes. I was thinking about red night vibes.

Yeah. Folks, we're friends. I was thinking about the red night but i was like wow prince charming can't hold a candle to the red knight i do like that like i do i think it's like a trope but a trope that i generally like an aggrieved actor becoming a villain kind of never gets old for me i enjoy it yeah but i just don't like charming as a character paddington too much hello hello kind of the peak of that trope yeah yeah nothing's done it better than paddington too i didn't write oh i should have thought of paddington too but that is i guess that's

technically your department at the office thank you at the bechdel cast office yes i am the the director of the paddingdington 2 department. I thought of the villain origin stories at the opening scene where Prince Charming is working at a medieval timesy restaurant. It's clear that they're pulling from that. And he's like, I'm too good for this shit. You don't appreciate me, blah, blah, blah. Things it reminded me of.

Donald Trump at the White House Correspondents Dinner being made fun of and then deciding to ruin the world. Reminded me of that. Yeah. Not that, I mean, not, and I don't like to make a Trump joke because good Lord. But it also kind of reminded me of the Joker. And it definitely reminded me of that episode of spongebob squarepants i watched it just the other day where spongebob or the crusty crab is putting on a talent show have you seen this one i'm so sorry to say this but i've never seen a single episode of spongebob squarepants i i know it took a second to hit me like not even one I'm really sorry like not even bubbles or

jelly fishing or I don't know the one where they play the halftime show at the football game no not even the Krusty Krab training video this no this is but I do remember this This is a lot. I know that you didn't grow up with it. Okay. Okay. Yes. No, go. There's an episode where you, I freak, something else reminded you of an episode of SpongeBob SquarePants. And I distinctly remember you saying something like, it's like when maybe Squidward eats a Krabby Patty and then he eats a hundred Krabby Patties. Yes.

That's a classic episode. I don't know what it means, but it is. I need to rewatch that. I think that there's maybe a bit of fat phobia in that episode, but the, um, the line is Squidward can't stop eating Krabby Patties.

He compulsively eating the Krabby Patties and SpongeBob's on the other side of the door. He's like, you have to stop eating the Krabby Patties. And Squidward says, what am I going to do? Blow up. And then SpongeBob says, no, it'll go straight to your thighs. like you have to stop eating the Krabby Patties and Squidward says what am I gonna do blow up and then SpongeBob says no it'll go straight to your thighs and then they have indeed gone straight to his thighs and then he says and then you'll blow up and then Squidward blows up

the best show ever and that's comedy that was not the episode I was thinking of SpongeBob heads will know this one it's a classic I made someone watch it with me after I had sex with them which was very powerful of me to do yeah yeah it was but the sex was reminding me it was not reminding me of that but it was just on my mind it's an episode where the Krusty Krab is putting on a talent show and Squidward he wants to be a respected artist that's kind of a big part of his character and so he's like i'm gonna do a huge dance routine and everyone hates it they think he's terrible and then spongebob comes up and mops a little bit and people start cheering okay but it reminded me of that because squidward regularly feels so artistically rejected that he seems like he may in fact kill someone and he

runs out on stage on this one and he says you don't even know talent and then the audience starts yelling back at him no talent no tell do you get it I get it it's very nuanced but I understand person I had sex with also wasn't cracking up at that. And I thought that was interesting. And then I kicked him out of my house. Wow. Well, should we read? I truly feel like I've entered a new area of my brain today.

I am now just constantly in an altered state state of yeah reality well we don't use what is like we don't use like 90 of our brains but today that changes yeah i am now able to access the other 90 of my brain that was a scarlett johansson movie once yeah lucy i think yeah all right check three let's do it here we go uh actually let's take a quick break and then we will come back for the recap definitely caruana galizia was a maltaltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was murdered. There are crooks everywhere you look now. The situation is desperate. My name is Manuel Delia. I am one of the hosts of Crooks Everywhere, a podcast that unhearts the plot to murder a one-woman Wikileaks.

Daphne exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. And she paid the ultimate price. Listen to Crooks everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Only Katherine Hahn is joining us on Lost Culture East. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful. Tune in for all the laughs, the stories, and of course, the culture. I feel some Sandra Bernhard in you.

Oh, my God, I would love it. I have to watch Lost. Oh, you have to. No, I know, I'm so behind. Katherine Hahn can sing. Oh, I'm really good at karaoke. What's your song? Yeah, what's your song?

Oh, I love a ballad. I felt Bjork's music. I just was like, who is this person? I got to hawk this slalom, Luge. I'm not going to hawk this slalom, Rudy Not hawk the slalom I absolutely love it It was somehow Shakespearean when you said it It was somehow gorgeous

Yee, must flock your hollum Listen to Las Culturistas on Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts Apple Podcasts Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

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sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we are back. Okay, we open on Jinji, Pinocchio. And then also, it's Pinocchio Wars time. And I was triggered when I saw Pinocchio. And I was like, ugh, yet another Pinocchio. Well, okay, so this is not a spoiler or anything, but in Puss in Boots, The Last Wish, Pinocchio makes a little cameo.

Oh. So there are three Pinocchio movies in 2022. Well, there's four because there's like the crummy. There's a fourth one. Maggie Mae Fish sent it to me and it's not like the animation you find at the gas station, but's not like the animation you find at the gas station, but it looks like the animation you find at the gas station. Not a theatrically released Pinocchio, but a really cheap. So it's like the Legend of Titanic version of Pinocchio. Yeah. Except it came out last year, which is kind of wild. Yeah. Unclear who no idea um okay so we've got jingy pinocchio

the big bad wolf and the three little pigs they are watching prince charming do dinner theater because he's a loser now and his life is in shambles and he is bitter because he thinks that he's the rightful king of far far away yeah but guess who is king or at least filling in for king while the real king is sick it's shrek oh and i bet he's gonna be a little awkward random and uh not quite at home being the king yeah yeah you would be correct yeah so he and fiona are sort of like stepping in as king and queen for the time being donkey and puss and boots are obviously around they are still the sidekicks and like you said shrek is bad at being king and he's like fiona we are leaving and going back to the swamp and she's like yeah and maybe when we're there, we could start a family. And Shrek is not thrilled by this idea. No, because of tropes.

Yes. And then the king is on his deathbed and he's like, Shrek, you're next in line to be king. And Shrek is like, oh, an ogre king. That sounds like a bad idea. And the king is like, like well there is one other option cousin arthur okay bye-bye and then he dies that scene is so frustrating to me because fiona's standing right there we spend so much of it shrek 3 acting like shrek 2 literally never happened because shrek 2 is a lot of like of Fiona coming into her own as a person.

And figuring out her role in this. Also, this is a very pro-monarchy. We can't deal with it today. We can't deal with it today. I understand it's very pro-monarchy. And more pro-monarchy as it goes on. And it's like, I just am assuming that they're colonial. You know, they tried to colonize Shrek's swamp.

Yeah. Hello. The plot of Shrek 1. Yeah. We know it. We love it. I don't think that we had the cultural know-how at the time to say that in our first episode about Shrek.

But I do think that there are like actively, truly serious brain, returning to the brain I know, they're a colonial force it's a monarchy but if we're going with girl boss logic of like girl is king is good whatever yeah fiona's right fucking there we've spent so much of shrek 2 of her coming into her own and then the third movie acts like nothing happened yeah nothing happened because i did think that like i was like i wonder if her father will even suggest that she could be you know in power as a joke i wonder if she will say what about me as a joke but it doesn't even it it doesn't even come up no it's we have a new character we hired justin timberlake to do it and why and and why yeah but

yeah that's that's what happens and then he dies oh the king dies yes yes yeah as a frog he's a frog he's in his frog state sees shrek 2 for why that is we've got brain fog the king has brain frog and then he doesn't because he dies yeah and then his brain his brain's dead okay meanwhile charming goes into a tavern where a bunch of fairy tale villains are hanging out and i do not appreciate the implication that only villains would hang out at a pub or like that a pub or tavern would be full of only villains and no one else as a frequenter of pubs taverns pubs dark corridors exactly yet another way that this movie kind of like feels like it's contradicting prior entries to the franchise is that like charming okay well let's let's say what charming

is doing he's trying to like galvanize the villains yeah he's like hey hook hey evil queen from snow white hey rumple stiltzkin join me in this cause of kind of reclaiming our own narratives and it's our turn to get a happily ever after which i feel like it's not anywhere close to like one for one what's happening in shrek one but the theme is similar of like these like classically villainized characters are trying to like prove that there's more to them than how they've been classically characterized that is literally shrek's arc yeah all the time in every fucking movie but this time it's bad and you're like well what i would say that this movie shrek the third is not particularly shrekian and i can't believe it took us over 20 minutes to say shrekian in this episode about a shrek movie merch plug we've got shrekian merch i'm looking at my shrek pillow my shrekian pillow

i have my shrekian sweatshirt not on because it's in the wash because i can't stop wearing it and that's t-ball flick.com slash the bechdel cast wow yes amazing um but this is the least shrekian entry it's like this it's like shrek 3 doesn't even know what happens in shreks one and two which is wild because they fucking lived it it's absurd yeah um okay so so charming is is rallying the fairy tale villains to you know be like hey it's it's our turn to be the heroes or whatever so then we cut back to shrek he's about to go on a voyage to find cousin arthur but before he leaves Fiona is like Shrek I'm Gregnant but also I was I was considering experimenting with Shrecknant or Shregnant I like Shregnant well you coined the term Shreg in our Shrek 2 episode I don't know if you remember this, Jamie. No, I just have so many good ideas

that I just kind of forget about some of them. That was so good of me to do. I'm so glad I did that. So proud of you. Thank you. Thank you so much. So Fiona is like, I'm Shregnant. And Shrek is like, yay.

But wait. But he's very worried about being a bad dad because ogres are not known for being nurturing oh my god such a forced plot point i'm like yeah enough with the ogre lore oh my goodness yeah it's a lot i also wait quick question so the timing of like when they're in far far away do you think that they fucked raw yeah the day her father died i'll i'll ask it do you think they fucked raw the day her father died or do you think it was before a good question it seems as though shrek leaves on this journey very shortly thereafter but then that introduces like well we don't know about ogre gestation well yes true so maybe they fuck raw and then two days later she knows she's shregnant. She's shregnant.

I would have actually, because this movie, like, you know, it's very Shrekian to show something that happens in the real world, but like covered in goo and stinky. Yeah. I would have liked to see a stinky pregnancy test. Oh. I would have liked to see it say shregnant on the clear blue or the clear green more like clear green test okay okay now we're talking we're writing a movie right now there so I want the clear green to show two gooey lines and it says she says oh no I'm shregnant um and then to you this my pee smells horrible or whatever

yeah but we don't get that we just get the scene where fiona is like i'm pregnant and then shrek is reacting with apprehension he has a nightmare about it where hundreds of little shregs are like running around he's scrambling to take care of them and to keep them safe his scrambled shregs there i i like i did like when that whole i that whole nightmare sequence is annoying because you're just like okay this is well i don't know we'll talk about it in the discussion because Because I do think that exploring the theme of anxiety around being a parent, very valid theme to explore. Yeah.

I think this movie just does it in a kind of bizarre and lazy, half-assed way. Just like a tropey, gendered way. Yeah. Exactly. We're not saying that, I mean, if I found out I was pregnant, I would be having dreams about donkey with my face on. Yeah, yeah. I would just be beside myself.

But yeah, I don't know. It just, there are like worthwhile themes being explored in the laziest, most boring way possible in this movie. Yes, indeed. yes indeed so then shrek donkey and puss in boots arrive at their destination which turns out to be a high school and cousin arthur turns out to be a teenager voiced by justin timberlake who everyone thinks is a huge loser terrible twist yeah i also think justin timberlake is a huge loser same do you think that david fincher saw Shrek the Third and was like, we got to put him in the social network? Yes or no?

He's got the chops. No, I think he saw Black Snake Moan and was like, got to put him in the social network. I don't know if that movie came out before the social network, but. I haven't even seen Black Snake Moan. Is that Samuel L. Jackson and Christina Ricci, right? Yeah. And I think if I'm remembering correctly, social network but i haven't even seen black snake moan is that that's samuel l jackson and christina ricci right yeah and i think if i'm remembering correctly justin timberlake is also in it or maybe he is i'm looking at his filmography right now i regret to inform you or maybe david

fincher saw southland tales and was like i gotta put justin timberlake in the social network i feel like david fincher did see Southland Tales. That movie, sorry for anyone who likes it, but I think is the, and this is not an unpopular opinion, but that movie, in my humble opinion, is a turd. Whoa. Anyway. I haven't seen it, but I just, I looked at the poster. I'm like, yeah, I think David Fincher's seen it. But I don't know.

I don't really know what he's like. I'll have to text him. He does seem mean, but not like funny mean, like James Cameron, just mean. Yeah. Like do 70 takes until you're crying mean. Yeah. Like a Kubrick kind of mean. Yeah.

Not James Cameron being like, if anyone wants my attention on set, they have to sound the awooga. That's like, did you see that? No. Oh my God. That's, I'm not making that up.

That is something that he said. He's just like, do he's the, he's the worst. He's, he's bad. And like, we could get into that because there's i mean we will

when we cover another titanic episode this year yeah actually i think we really should because there's been discourse around avatar 2 that i feel like is very much worth discussing even though we just talked about avatar for a very long time with ali nadi but it's just like okay compartmentalizing my feelings just to share this yes the film crew on avatar way of water has to play an awooga sound effect of a submarine diving alarm to get james cameron's attention on set cameron quote i don't even respond unless they do the awooga unquote embarrassing that's funny mean embarrassing uh yeah moving on anyway so justin terberlake is in the movie is the point and we don't love it shrek is like guess what arthur you're first in line for

the throne and so arthur leaves with shrek excited by the idea of being king, but when Arthur realizes how much responsibility it requires, he freaks out and tries to turn the ship around. He and Shrek start fighting. The ship crashes on an island where Merlin, famously a wizard, voiced by Eric Idle this time. I'm always delighted to see Eric Idle but I'm like oh my god what is happening they're just the doing backbends to tell me more things about masculine responsibility like shut okay so Merlin is like Shrekrek, I'm not going to help you until you stop being so angry. And then he has all of the characters do some soul searching.

And Shrek is still clearly anxious about being a father. We learn that Arthur was abandoned by his father. And Shrek and Arthur have a heart to heart. And they are bonding almost as if they are father and son and Shrek does say something interesting that I think I was trying to figure out if there's any way that Shrek the musical which is my favorite uh Shrek Shrekian Shrekian. Shrekian property. Yeah. Because I believe that Shrek the Musical debuts in 08, the year after this. Okay. But I was curious if like this was being like developed alongside Shrek 3 or if like Shrek 3 wasn't able to be like to get into Shrek the Musical because they were kind of close together and it takes so long to develop a musical but shrek does say that his

father tried to eat him yes when he was a little shrek a shrek he just hatched out of his shrek and and his father says i'm gonna eat you yeah that's not good but they're in i believe in the musical the way that shrek's childhood shrek's childhood trauma is actually like a huge plot point in shrek the musical and it's why it's the best shrek they are examining shrek's sensitive side with farts of course but what happens in shrek the musical is that shrek's parents kick shrek out of their house when he's seven oh my gosh and say go make something of yourself and you look like shit and like that's kind of they're like it's going to be hard to be an ogre in the world which is why we're kicking you out of our house question mark but so he was like badly parented in a different way yeah in the musical are shrek's parents also

ogres or was there like yes an adoption thing okay so they were that's why it's confusing that they kick him out they're like the world is hostile and so are we like i don't understand yeah but in the musical it's very effective and i feel like again just another way that shrek is lazy he's like um my dad tried to eat me that won't be coming up again yeah the point is uh shrek is now justin timberlake's daddy back in far far away and to be clear like we and i don't want to speak for you jamie but i don't have a problem with the idea of a story being about a father-son relationship there's nothing inherently wrong with that and i think there should be more stories that at least feature a positive and like meaningful story about a father-son relationship because so many of the

ones that we get on screen are actually very toxic relationships but the movie doesn't present them that way it's just like yeah this is how fatherhood is or whatever i i am inclined to agree with that i just feel like it's like not in first position for me i feel like they've had no people have had a lot of shots to get it right and if they haven't at this point i'm like well that's none of my business right but but i also i do agree i think that there are there are versions of this story that have been historically ignored right but unfortunately this movie is not doing anything right and when we're coming down on like father son movies which are almost all of them yeah i'm just coming down at the sheer volume of them and how

they're like it's i feel like it's just like a classically i'm more saying like and there's not a lot else it's very rare to see any other parent-child relationship of any sort other than fathers and sons because of who's been historically who's been historically put first so i actually am very sick of fathers and sons movies but if the movie's really good then uh fine good for that but it just this movie isn't this is not an example yeah right yes so back in far far away charming shows up with his army of villains. They storm the castle. He claims the throne as his own.

And he plans to basically kill Shrek and Arthur upon their return. Yeah. Fiona, her mom and her friends, such as Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, and Rapunzel, try to escape. But Rapunzel betrays Fiona because she she turns out to be charming's his girlfriend and something that they also do basically nothing with it's yeah yeah and so charming locks fiona and the others in the dungeon meanwhile merlin uses his magic to transport shrek arthur donkey and puss in Boots back to Far Far Away. But also during this teleportation, Donkey and Puss's bodies are accidentally switched.

Hello? And that's comedy. And does that lead anywhere? Of course not. No. No. Just a bunch of boring jokes. Yeah.

Yes. no just a bunch of some goof boring jokes yeah yes so then shrek goes to stop charming and to save fiona but charming captures shrek and his friends and this is when arthur finds out that he isn't really next in line to be king that shrek is and that shrek just didn't want to do it and Shrek calls Arthur a fool and a loser and tells him to leave and he's really mean so Arthur does just that he leaves and it's just and at this point you're really like struggling to care yeah I'm like what's happening oh no Justin Timberlake has exited the movie darn uh so then uh charming puts on this show it's similar to the dinner theater show we saw him doing at the beginning of the movie where he vanquishes an ogre because charming's plan is to kill shrek on stage during the show. Which is both lazy and iconic.

Yes. I don't hate it. And it plays out. I couldn't decide if I... But then I did hate it. As the scene was happening, I'm like, this is so ridiculous. Okay.

Yeah. All right. He's going to kill him on stage. Yes. Meanwhile, Fiona and the others break out of the dungeon and storm the castle with the help of donkey puss pinocchio jinji the whole gang along the way they bump into arthur and puss and donkey tell arthur that shrek said all of those mean things to protect him so that charming wouldn't kill arthur cut to the play charming is about to

kill shrek but fiona and the other ladies bust into save the day but oh no i mean there is the the classic another i think something very shrekian is um a moment of woman empowerment that goes nowhere correct a classic shrekian thing to do it's like and now it's it's the woman is kicking and now back to your regularly scheduled shrek doing stand-up like what the fuck was that yeah he's doing a tight fight he's he's uh he's doing a roast of charming he was he's in a roast battle yeah yeah and he won he won of course i think it's safe to say he won um so yeah so fiona and the other princesses show up to save the day but it doesn't go anywhere and charming and the villains get the upper hand again but then arthur shows back up and gives a speech about how they don't have to be villains they can be whoever they want to be because even though everyone might think they're

a monster it's about who you think you are and you're like oh yeah sort of like exactly what happens in shrek one but makes less sense and is from justin timberlake like i'm so not interested on in justin timberlake's journey towards becoming a diplomat like oh i hate it but his speech inspires the villains to throw down their weapons but charming isn't having it and he tries to kill shrek but then charming gets crushed by a tower and presumably killed and then arthur takes the crown and accept his role as king i can't believe it then merlin switches donkey and puss back in their rightful bodies and then we cut back to the swamp where fiona has three little shregs and they've hatched they've hatched out of their out of their shrag eggs and

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And we're back. Yeah. Yeah. What should we talk about first about first well I feel like we actually have um touched on quite a bit of stuff already I think I mean but let's I guess close the loop on the every movie is about fathers and sons thing I do stand by what I said and I I feel like this movie is kind of a classic example of why that can be so frustrating because it's like i just feel like there's so many more interesting parent-child dynamics in this movie that to some extent is supposed to be about parental anxiety right and like i just think it's really um it was a huge missed opportunity and and you know I guess missing an opportunity is very Shrekian in a way true to say something impactful but introducing a new character instead of like focusing on the characters we have just felt like a huge mistake because it's like not that I want

Shrek the third to be about grieving a parent but it's I just like I truly was baffled and I felt like it really spoke to how poorly Fiona has been characterized historically yes and really reminded me about how it took five white guys to write this story. That we are given like a really strong thread. That should be playing into the whole movie. At the very beginning. Fiona's father dies. Is it funny when he dies?

Yes. I kind of like the frog bit. Oh he's not dead yet. It went on for so long. I was so over it. After the first movie. I was over it because I was feeling for Fiona but I do think that the few people I've told I was watching Shrek the third that scene is the only thing anyone remembers they're like is that the one where the frog dies and it takes a long time

shocking but yes yes but yeah I just feel like that's like a really strong thread and it's not called back to at all like Fiona I feel like it's it's so it ties into like a really strong thread and it's not called back to at all like fiona i feel like it's it's so it ties into like a huge issue with fiona in this or just like a very heavily gendered trope in this where it's like it's never considered that fiona might have anxieties about becoming a parent it's like that's such so part and parcel to like lazy motherhood narratives that are generally written by not mothers right where it's like oh well yes it is her feminine duty not only to want to get pregnant but not have a single worry in the world about the little shrags um yes like nothing nothing nothing nothing and the fact that she's just lost her parent would be another sort of way

into exploring that anxiety of like what was her childhood like does she have any anxieties about like her children being a part of this like royal fucking mess does she have anxieties about shrek's ability to parent is there like there's just like so like a 10 year old could come up with a bunch of different ways for fiona to be more active within this story and it's just like completely ignored so aggressively that they feel the need to introduce a character that no one cares about in order to like get shrek to the same place but like in a worse less effective way like she's right there I feel like that's every Shrek discussion you're like Fiona's right there yeah she has the narrative thrust why can't she fucking like have a an actual story and not just

like and to the point where like when she comes out and I forgot that there was like the princess fight scene. And I guess like theoretically, like that's better than nothing. But I was actually really annoyed by it because it was just like, oh cool. You're going to do the one thing Fiona's ever allowed to do, which is one fight scene per movie.

But it's like, even that's fucking lazy at this point yes because it's not really leading anywhere and she still doesn't get to do anything like it just ugh for sure yeah just touching a little bit more on the like parenthood through of the movie reiterating how easy of a choice it is to put the woman in the role of being so hyper enthusiastic about becoming a parent to the point where she has seemingly no anxieties no hesitations nothing like that because i think it's like leaning into this trope of like women are quote-unquote baby crazy whereas men are so often presented in media as being extremely reluctant about becoming a father because they think it's gonna like right i don't, ruin his life or something. As if to say in hetero couples, women don't experience like doubt and apprehension about becoming a parent and that men don't experience enthusiasm when we know that the full range of emotion is available to people of all genders as it relates to parenthood and everything in the world um right like it it's not like we're

even saying you know like this is not like a woman has never has never felt this way about parenting and a man has never felt this way about parenting right obviously like tropes don't come from nowhere we're not saying that no one's ever reacted this way to a pregnancy or even a shregnancy sure yeah but it is so so done to fucking death and i and i think it's like this is something that always kind of bugs me about the shrek movies is like they're so aggressively marketed as like an alternative to like the tropes that you're used to but it's like very much not like leaning into the tropes yeah yeah in terms of its values i feel like the first one is like the closest to actually subverting something and like you know like with beauty is more than how you appear and like all

that stuff like that felt genuinely subversive for a kid's movie but by the time they get to the third one it's like it's just like no one's even trying it bums me out and it's because i do think that fiona is an awesome character she's awesome yeah and like i've i felt like she was disrespected in the second one because they literally tried to like roofie her. And then in the third one, it's even worse. They like I was glad that at least we I don't know. There's like large chunks of this movie where she's completely absent. Oh, yeah.

Because Shrek's going off on a quest with Donkey and Puss in Boots. And we only cut back to her to see her baby shower like which again is just so lazy and gendered it's so and it also is my impression of that scene i've been to i've been to many baby showers i love being an auntie it very much read to me as like five men trying to imagine what a baby shower would be like right and it's like oh it's just women insulting each other and giving each other gifts and i'm like oh it's so it's so lazy they didn't play any games no one had it like all the princesses the way they're characterized they're basically indistinguishable from each other because they're all character i think the subversion that they're making is like they're characterized they're basically indistinguishable from each other because they're all character i think the subversion that they're making is like they're actually

vapid evil bitches right isn't that funny right and you're like no why are fiona's friends mean like i hate it and also shouldn't we cut back to a scene where like Fiona is making choices about the kingdom? Like she is right now the de facto leader of the kingdom. Like, yeah. Shouldn't we see her be doing stuff? Or, you know, not that again, not that we're pro monarchy here, but like even so. But the movie is so like. Right.

So like. Can she do something? Can she do something? I felt the same way about um queen is it queen gertrude oh my god get that right fiona's mom yes i don't know queen lillian queen lillian oh my god i'm so why did i say queen gertrude i think that's literally from hamlet i'm sorry i'm so smart um so okay queen lillian yeah i felt like she again was just like not she was a bigger part of shrek too than she is in shrek the third but again you have like a really really strong like i would

totally understand if like a shrek movie doesn't really want to explore grief fine fine it's for eight-year-olds i get it yeah but even if you take that out of the equation why isn't queen like it just feels like theoretically because i don't i there should be like an some little snappy little title for whatever this this trope is and i feel like it is really like thriving around this time where it's like the character has all of the trappings of a quote-unquote strong female character but it means nothing it's like strictly symbolic because it never has any bearing on the plot and they'll always sort of go towards the traditional feminine expectations but sometimes they get to kick right but they're not really subverting anything.

And I feel like queen Lillian is the same thing where it's like, she gets her like fighting girl boss moment where she like slams her head against the wall and the wall breaks. Great. Love that. But like, why can't, I don't know.

It's like Lillian and Fiona are, we're told repeatedly, these are empowered women, right? These are strong female characters but it's never brought up between the two of them why couldn't one of us like why not queen lillian why is she like disqualified what are the rules of this monarchy like it never comes up that she would have any interest in like but we're told she's like this girl boss but she has no interest in the boss portion it just doesn't make sense to me no it doesn't make sense here's a pitch for a snappy

name yeah for this trope because these characters are so or because this like presentation of like quote-unquote girl power is very hollow and never like leads to anything what if it's hollow holly thank you thank you so much oh my gosh cheers applause wow people are getting out of their seats i'm screaming crying wow oh anyway okay i just had an orgasm um i i'll keep workshopping it but uh i think that's kind of perfect i feel like hollow that's a strong hollow hollow we'll figure it out listeners sound off what the fuck or maybe someone has already like attributed a label to this and we just haven't heard about it but like because we have been you know it's like it like ties into like you're just saying like girl power feminism right where it's

insisting that it's a really subversive feminist thing but it's falling into traditional values pretty cleanly at the end of the day but they're allowed to like say one swear or something um yeah it's very symbolic hollow peepee poopoo i don't like it and that's my pitch um i love that too but yeah i just was really frustrated by like you know and to the point where it's like queen lillian and fiona are like standing in the background of a lot of these scenes and they never say anything it's really frustrating i want to go through beat by beat as far as what happens with fiona as they're like escaping the castle and like doing this like again quote unquote girl power part of the story yeah so charming breaks into the castle fiona takes initiative she leads the other women to safety yes which include snow white cinderella sleeping beauty and rapunzel who are

four of the most damseled characters in fairy tale lore right which will come back in a moment and then also an ugly stepsister and we'll an get back to that. An ugly stepsister and Fiona's mom. Yes. Yeah. And I do feel like that. I don't know if Shrek is the first franchise to do this, but like that has been, it feels, this actually feels quite Shrekian. I don't like how they're like, let's create an alternative to the aggressively damsel

characters by making them horrible. Like that just felt like there's so many ways to do that. Why would you choose that direction? Right. an alternative to the aggressively damseled characters by making them horrible like that just felt like there's so many ways to do that why would you choose that direction right whatever that's the creative choice they made and i don't have to like it um yeah but um i feel like that is like very shrekian because that's why the movies exist is to like make fun of disney shit because it started with jeffrey katzenberg wanting to spite disney right so it's like that is the formula of like find disney tropes and then put them on their head even if you're making it bad in a different way so that feels very in line with the shrekian stuff yes and then that's like kind of weirdly like something that

Disney also starts to do because that that whole sequence reminded me of like the Wreck-It Ralph thing where like the Disney princesses appear as themselves but now they're like different and it's like it's Shrek's impact look Shrek the third not very good but Shrek's impact. Look, Shrek the third, not very good, but Shrek's impact really kind of culturally cannot be overstated because it's like Shrek did so well at making fun of Disney that Disney had no choice but to make fun of Disney. And that really makes you think. Wow. Okay.

The Shrekian impact on the world is palpable. It's, I can smell it. Okay. So we've got this, this group of women fiona is leading them to safety we see that scene in the dark corridor where the princesses are bickering they seem to be jealous of each other's beauty fiona's mom even has to say like let go of your petty complaints and let's work together fiona leads them out of the castle and it seems like they're safe until rapunzel betrays them and the rest of them are captured and thrown in the dungeon and then fiona is like we need to find a way out but she only says that

after she learns that like shrek is in danger so like why wouldn't she try to like be more adamant about escaping just because they're locked in a dungeon, but it's not until she's like, Oh my God, my husband, my husband, I have to get out now. I don't know.

Like, I truly think that like Fiona's plot line is like comically under thought, like truly her mode. Like it just, this is like a bizarre gripe but just like another way where i'm just like wow ah like the the guy's writing this movie it's just like fiona's having a baby shower it seems like and then which made me ask myself how long has shrek been gone if we're to believe that like fiona has basically the gestation period of a human

which i think she would because she was human for a very long time but also i don't know i don't know how that works right but it's like a shrek been gone for six months like baby showers generally don't happen until pretty far into the pregnancy into the shreganancy yeah the shreganancy but again it's just like these are just not things that the writers know or care about. Or like, her motivation from scene to scene makes no sense. It's just like, it feels like they are like, okay, there's a scene where she's kicking. And we can call it a day. I found that her bringing her friends and mother to safety to be the most effective, motivated Fiona moment. Because it didn't feel forced.

All the other stuff felt really forced but it unfortunately he as we've said goes nowhere because what happens is so she's like we need to escape and then the other princesses the very traditionally damseled ones assume the position of waiting to be rescued by a man and fiona is like what are you doing and they're like we're waiting around to be rescued and snow white says something like you know we're just a bunch of hot princesses and a pregnant ogre and an old lady like what are we supposed to do and that's when fiona's mom is like bashes her head against two stone walls to break them down and you know fiona is like we're gonna

take care of business we're gonna actively do something and that's when we have this like quote-unquote girl power montage where they're like tearing their dresses to make them easier to move around in cinderella is like sharpening her glass slipper there's like a bra burning moment which is like when you think about what that's symbolic of right i i again you're like well i mean i guess it's very shrekian to uh present an empty reference that makes no sense within the story right so i sure but yeah i mean well bra burning is like a whole other thing because like that was that's like a cultural myth like that didn't even happen but not that five white guys in a room would know that i'm sure they're like oh that definitely

happened and that meant that they're like um girl power feminism what does it look like they burn a bra okay let's put that in the movie done done done write it down like it's uh it's so yeah it's just like really really um lazy lazy lazy lazy doesn't make sense then the women storm the castle and fight using their specific skills to the best of their ability i guess in terms of like didn't hate it yeah because it's like snow snow white uses the animals yeah she summons a bunch of woodland critters and has them attack the guards cinderella uses her glass slipper as a weapon sleeping beauty passes out and trips some people with her body and then they all invade the castle during charming's show and fiona's like shrek i'm here to save you but then fiona is immediately tied up and damseled subversive it's up to you right and so it's up to Shrek to like fight the villain. And then it ends up being Dragon, who was also basically written out of the movie.

Yeah. Who swoops in and lands the killing blow by knocking a tower over onto Charming. Right. Not that she gets any like recognition for doing that. Because she's really like mommy-fied by this story as well. Where like she's really like mommyfied by this story as well where like she's basically only mommy like she's she's now mommy to bananas yes bananas the donkey dragon which and there's nothing wrong with that but it's like yeah she it it's i feel like it is a very tropey thing i know it's a very tropey thing that once a character is a mother, they are like, and that's the whole character now. Yes.

A mother could not possibly have another facet to their life. Exactly. And that is very much what happens to Dragon. And then it's eventually what happens to Fiona. And don't we love that? We do not. Yeah, ultimately it's the veil or like the facade of women being empowered and like doing something, having some agency,

but it's all extremely hollow because when the moment comes where they can actually like affect the story in some significant way such as fiona saving shrek that doesn't happen she's tied up she's damn sold so it's it's it's a bummer I do think that like you know this movie came out in 2007 and I think if it was made today that would be less of an issue I do feel like children I'm and maybe correct me if I'm wrong but like I think the kids movies specifically have come a very very long way in the last like 15 to 20 years and i think like more so than a lot of genres for adults like i think it's come further than rom-coms it's come further than

action movies i think honestly if i'm poking a little fun at current movie tropes if this movie came out today it would be about shrek's childhood trauma and it would be about fiona's childhood trauma and it would be beautiful and it would make us cry yeah and that's why i'm excited for shrek 5 um but but yeah like i think that like this era is it's so bizarre and it makes you feel like you me much like queen lillian banging my head against a wall but the wall is not breaking it remains much the same yes because you're telling me that this is an empowered female character but then but that's not what's happening correct um but you know i think that i don't know there's there's better shreks ahead i can feel it i can just feel

yes hello oh my god i shouldn't have said that i shouldn't have said that yeah there's an emergency happening don't get this out of the it's an emergency everyone's getting to the set of shrek 5 because we're gonna add a female character oh my god because Shrek 5 there's a set because Shrek 5 is live action they're doing it's Brian Darcy James and Sutton Foster just like the musical right um and it looks normal it doesn't look scary okay so did you have anything else to say about the um the hollow feminism of of this movie no i don't think so okay we've we've talked about this before in shrek episodes there are so many of the era um i wasn't picking up on quite as many gay jokes in this one. I think that there was a queer coded stylist, which we've seen a million times.

It's a very lazy trope. Yes, yes. But the Shrek franchise, especially in earlier installments, it skews transphobic. For sure. Like all the time. And it's tricky because it's like, I don't know how the ugly stepsisters are. I mean, they're coded as like looking more masculine and therefore they are ugly like they have masculine features and so they're ugly and are voiced by male voice actors

exactly and not just male voice actors i just want to make sure i'm getting this right they're voiced by larry king and regis philbin i did not recognize those voices and so you're like and why on earth is that like I like I just was like well okay like for what I mean I I don't think that this movie is as aggressively transphobic as the first movie and not as aggressively transphobic as Shrek the musical, which had to have several lines removed for subsequent productions, which I think we've talked about on the show before. And Shrek 2, this was a big part of our discussion because Shrek 2 is still leaning into a lot of very transphobic gender normative jokes. Yes. And because this is a sidebar, but because Shrek three is called Shrek the third,

I think Shrek two should have been called Shrek junior. It's only right. Whoa. But we can move on from that. But yes, I want bananas to get his own movie. Oh, what a good spinoff.

Nanners. Okay. No, but I, I think it's it's i think frustrating that from what i can remember is the least transphobic shrek movie and it's still pretty pretty transphobic um yes indeed yeah um and it's baffling to me that in a movie franchise that's all about beauty is found within that being the sorry to say thrust again but being the thrust of the narrative it's do not just don't include characters from literature who are called the ugly stepsisters because like or if you're going to include them subvert like you know subvert that or like anything just try do something but because these ugly stepsister characters

are presented as not conforming to rigid western beauty standards and it seems like the intention of the joke is something along the lines of these women are masculine and therefore ugly right horrible statement to make in any movie but especially one targeted toward children and why include that's about accepting yourself exactly yeah it's so it's just like these movies are like it's very shrekian for something to mean nothing because it yeah i was really i was really frustrated about that it's so like i guess i apologize if we're if we're not like having the conversation that deserves to be had about like transphobia inside of this franchise this one for me famously uh cis person with one brain cell so but like there was so much like weird coding that it was like difficult to like there wasn't an outright

like the characters were not never declared to be anything but a cis woman but like because of all these creative choices you're like the coding is there yeah coding is for sure there absolutely and like i just yeah it's just so fucking ridiculous that yeah like you're totally right that this franchise specifically it's just nothing means anything no nope this is sidebar, but like also why do people want Prince Charming to come back? I couldn't stand him in the last movie. Why is he back? I don't because they need a villain. I'm not sure.

You know who should be back more is Dragon again. Yes. Basically written out of this movie this was also part of our discussion on the shrek 2 episode where she's not in the movie because someone maybe fiona is like hey donkey where's dragon and he says oh she's really moody so i'm like distancing myself from her she's on her dragon period so you're just like oh my god in this one when donkey is about to embark on his journey with shrek dragon is there with their five babies and donkey says something like oh yeah i don't want to leave either but you know shrek he needs me. So Donkey is just like leaving Dragon with their many babies.

Yes. He's shirking his parental responsibilities. And well, I will say, I think that Donkey appears to be a good parent, which that is he's very nurturing. He seems supportive and loving. Yeah. I think it is like, again, very tropey and shitty that it's like well the father needs to go on a quest and like the mother needs to stay at home yeah i don't think it's even bad that donkey

goes on a quest but it's like well but we're never gonna see that in the reverse in these movies for sure and that is more the issue i was happy that he that donkey was enthusiastic about parenthood in opposition to shrek true and i was happy that he was excited to be an uncle like i i have no real issue with donkey in this movie and that's partially because he doesn't really do anything he sees shrek's dick he that's it that's the last thing that happens before the title sequence this is very true i also found it fascinating that so there's a moment where puss starts explaining sex to shrek to be like this is how babies are made and shrek is like yeah i know because shrek fucks this is canon we know this well yeah he but then he fucked his wife raw the day her father died yes be serious yeah grow up people and that's canon like put it on the wikipedia page

check if you're gonna fuck raw immediately after receiving the news of the death of her father it's how they blow off steam and you're rude to judge them for it it was making love and so it's not weird anyway okay so so grief can look like anything so puss is explaining sex and shrek is like i know but then donkey is like wait how does it work as if donkey doesn't understand sex or like conceiving of babies meanwhile donkey is the father of five children so he presumably yeah had sex it does appear again this is a very like it appears that donkey's kids are all the same age which and and shrek eventually has i think triplets yes which leads me to another thing that happens when five straight white guys write a movie together,

which is that they seem to believe that women give birth in litters, like cats and dogs. And I celebrate that. That is a level of not knowing. I'm like, I have to assume because they're all like in their 30s and 40s. Statistically, probably one of them is a parent. And like, how could you still say that? I'm like I have to assume because they're all like in their you know 30s and 40s statistically probably one of them is a parent and like how could you still say that um it's really bizarre no not sure no person with a womb gives birth to just one it's a bunch it's a t-shirt gun of children it's a it's a heap what I will say going back quickly to the very like tropey

gendered way in which the like shrek and fiona parenthood storyline is represented yes i did appreciate that the story takes it in the direction of shrek not being worried about his life being ruined because I think so much of that like tropey narrative is like oh you know I don't want to get married to some ball and chain I don't want to have kids they're just gonna drag me down and not let me live my like whatever dick swinging lifestyle I want to live but I at least appreciate that Shrek is like i'm not worried about my life being ruined i'm worried about not being a good parent and that i'm going to like mess up my kids right but his reasoning is you know ogres are not known for being sweet nurturing caregivers but the whole premise of the movie is that ogres are misunderstood and they are vilified for no reason and all these things so it's curious why he i mean i get why he's still

why he thinks that and again i understand apprehension and reluctance as it relates to parenting this is something though that people of all genders experience uh which we've talked about right but i think yeah again it's like it's not it's the same thing with um with donkey going on a quest it's not the issue isn't that he goes on a quest the issue is that dragon it would never happen that dragon would go on a quest it's not an issue that shrek has anxieties about what kind of parent he's going to be it's that the franchise would never let fiona have those same anxieties right it's not an equitable environment for storytelling exactly the final thing i want to say is that jinji there's a scene where he is scared surrounded by villains with weapons yes and jinji poops

and what jinji poops out is a little purple gumdrop which is identical to the two purple gumdrops on his chest does that mean that jinji wears his own poop on as n on his chest as nipples, as two vertical nipples. Or, or does he poop nipples? Whoa. These are some interesting thoughts that we have posited. Yes. Don't rule it out. There's a lot to think about i okay this is maybe maybe maybe this

is our new wet scabs dry scabs does gingy poop nipples or does he wear his shit as nipples it's a good question it's a valid question yeah did shrek and fiona fuck rock actually we answer that question yes yes 100 and there's a tape i've seen the tape have you ever seen the colin farrell sex tape because i have no i haven't seen that one it's good oh okay nice well i guess you can leave that in the episode or not and i guess i'll just be surprised all right okay um do you have anything else you want to say let me see uh what else i mean i think that like there's probably more to oh i guess um merlin i feel like there's a bunch of like very of the time mental health jokes made around merlin where the justin timberlake character is

like oh yeah they sent merlin out here after he had a mental breakdown and it's like Merlin is using like mental health terms and Shrek is like oh shut up like but then he's also using extremely ableist language in a few examples and he's also with that he's insulting other characters for their struggles with mental health but then so at the same time like what Merlin does is helpful in like further characterizing Justin Timberlake. But then once Justin Timberlake uses the mental health exercise that Merlin has him do, Merlin is then like, you're a basket case and i was like all right like which like oh gosh and all that happens there is that we learn that arthur has abandonment issues because he was abandoned by his father of course that would lead to right trauma for a person but yeah for merlin to be like wow what a nutcase and then it's so ridiculous i really like can't stand it yeah shrek the third it's a stinky more like shrek the turd but is it more shrek the

nipples we don't know i think i smell some new merch coming i think i smell some nipples i oh god no one wants that merch caitlin um oh subvert okay i did say subversion a plot warlock because we usually get plot witches oh a plot witch but this time it's merlin we get a wizard so it doesn't do anything but it is something that happened yeah um i and then i think my last thought on this one is that this movie convinced me that fiona would be not unreasonable to leave shrek i agree yeah yes because if i'm fiona and my husband doesn't even say doesn't even say well you could do the job because she we've just seen a whole montage where she's doing the job better than him yeah it's her family yeah if i'm married to

someone that it doesn't even occur to them they would rather go on a quest and bring back justin timberlake than suggest that i could do a job that i had been doing to some extent for a huge chunk of my life i would not stay with that ogre yeah i wouldn't i think that and i certainly wouldn't let them inshragnate me and that's and that's my feminism yeah i want to be with someone who tells me i can do it a job nothing else brave of you um thank you some people will say that's extreme not me i support it thank you at the end of the day shrek and shrekian properties think they are being subversive but now that we've covered three shrek movies and you better believe we're gonna at some point cover Shrek 4 and make no mistake we're still absolutely wild about this franchise in spite of only really having negative things to

say about it um it's hard to explain you wouldn't understand yeah sorry that was that was needlessly combative you might understand if people have been listening to this show for seven years you would understand i bet there are a lot of people who would understand i think so i think so and i'm sorry i came in too hot and i shouldn't have i'm gonna issue a notes app apology for coming in too hot on the shrek the third episode I already forgive you Jamie but um the point is to be Shrekian is to be subversive but not but never in quite the right ways never in ways that are actually commenting on things or like championing marginalized people or are using effective comedy things like that so except for the frog thing which apparently really stuck with general audiences yeah i did kind of so right after the frog king

dies there's a like kind of funeral procession scene where it's like raining and dark and sad and some they're saying cover let die die is playing and i did i was like damn that is sad about that king die it was pretty yeah and again like we were saying at the beginning of the episode that could have been and you can kid movie if i this pixar movies exist you know like not that i want shrek to be a pixar movie that would be so fucked up actually yeah i actually don't want to like i don't really want shrek to plumb the depths really but like if you're gonna have that whole funeral scene you can't like never bring that up again yeah like fiona has lost her father, who we know because of Shrek 2. She has a very complicated relationship with.

Yes. There's a whole like a huge chunk of Shrek 2 is about her father being convinced by the evil fairy Prince Charming's mother, the fairy godmother, to force his daughter to change species again. Yeah. to force his daughter to change species again yeah and then like they find out at the end of that movie that they have this commonality where her father's a frog okay i just i'm sounding too serious for the sentences i'm saying no no no no keep going her father's a frog fiona's an ogre they choose to stay in their natural forms they don't want to conform right this is a huge thing they have in common and it was a hard one thing for her dad to be able to to admit that about himself and i believe if i'm remembering correctly he owes a lot of his willingness to be in his

natural form to seeing how happy his daughter is in her natural form he says that so it's like it's a whole like i mean instruct two is like not good but you have all that fucking raw gristly material and then you kill that character and the first 10 minutes after this huge arc between them and she's like two seconds later it's like well i'm greggnett now like it's it's like fiona is always treated like only one thing can be happening with her and that is not how shrek is treated he's struggling with a bunch of different things at once and he's on a quest and he's like yeah he's allowed to be a very kind of multifaceted like yeah yeah he can have more than one thing going on at one time but it's like fiona can't be grieving and shregnant and interested in having a job that would be too much

it's too much to ask for i just you know and the movie's only like 82 minutes long there was room 10 minute long credit are you joking babe it's i mean not that i'm gonna knock a movie for being 82 minutes long that's iconic i love it please let there be more short movies but yeah that's to say make it 90 minutes and give fiona or cut out just a different like i don't okay we got to get out of here we got to get out of here we must leave it passes the bechdel test it does pass when the princesses are insulting each other incessantly and it does pass um when they are i believe when they are planning the the attack yes it does also pass so there's i would say most of the passes are frustrating because it's like women insulting each other at very gendered events yes in very gendered ways

like oh yes you're not prettier i'm prettier to be fair we are always saying that to each other and that is true i'm popping out shregs like a t-shirt gun at a basketball game so you know like fair it passes the bachelor test yes it does but nipple what about the one true metric yes oh my god and now is it the nipple scale or is it the gum drop shit scale hard to say okay so our nipple scale or the scale formerly known as the nipple scale the artist formerly known as the nipple scale zero to five nipples examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens yes i would give shrek the third oh i would give it a half nipple just in case there are like small children out there

maybe little girls who saw that sequence where it is a very hollow girl power sequence or it ends up being hollow because it doesn't lead to anything really but in 2007 you know it's like in 2007 that the pickings are slim and maybe you know yeah if you've if you found it empowering more power to you and you've got better options now i i agree with you there yeah so just for that like little sliver of something that could be empowering for viewers i will give it a half nipple but because of everything else we discussed it does not deserve more than that i feel no it doesn't so i'll give my half nipple to i don't know if i should give it to fiona who always deserves more than she's given in these movies or if i should give it to jinji's possible gumdrop

nipple slash possible piece of poop i i i mean i think you know the answer and it's feminists will be furious but it's the gumdrop poop slash nipple yeah it is it very much is how about you jamie What do you think? You know, I think I'm actually, I'm going to match you. And so that Jinji can have a full. Poop nipple. A full hot shit. I will bequeath the same half nipple.

There's really not. This is, I think, a low for the franchise. But I also don't really remember what happens in trek 4 because someone was someone's hand was inside of me and yeah so it may get worse i feel like it gets better i think the fourth one involves time travel that's incredible i can't know or or it's a prequel or it's a prequel it doesn't like Justin Timberlake is not in it. Okay, good. And we thank our lucky stars.

Yes. He was too busy. He was doing so shnit. Right. I have never seen Shrek 4. So I am excited to watch it. And once again, I'll just be plugging Puss in Boots, The Last Wish, which was an incredible piece of art and cinema. Cinema.

Cinema. On that note, Happy New Year to all. Yes. And to all a good Shrek. Shrek. That's bad. But also. That was subversive.

That's subversive. Take notes. Incredible, Jamie. To all a. That's subversive. Take notes. Incredible, Jamie. All a good dot, dot, dot. But before you have it to all a good Shrek, scoot on over to our Matreon where we have the Pinocchio Wars. Yes. About to happen, actively happening.

It's coming. Especially if you enjoy these kinds of episodes. We do them pretty rarely on the main feed, but most of our Matreon episodes are just me and Caitlin. They tend to be a little looser. The movies tend to be generally pretty light, except for this month when we're doing the Pinocchio Wars, which is actually really serious. We're covering both the bad Robert Zemeckis one and the allegedly good Del Toro one. I still have yet to watch them.

But I can't wait. I love that Tom Hanks is in his flop era. It's so interesting. Yeah. He's flopping around. He's about to be a man called Otto. And I'm like, I'm not seeing that. I'm going to see Megan five times.

Same. I already have my tickets. I have my tickets. Do you want to go to Mar-a-Night? Maybe. Because I have my ticket already. Oh my tickets. Do I go tomorrow night? Maybe. Cause I have my ticket already. Oh my gosh. Oh wait,

sorry. I forgot. You're busy. Okay. Anyways, we'll figure it out. You'll go again and I'll go with you. So the matron is $5 a month and you get two bonus episodes and access to a

back catalog of well over a hundred episodes. We've been doing the matron for around five years. It's true. Also, you can follow us on social media. You certainly can on instagram and twitter and then you can go to tpublic.com slash the bechtel cast where we have none other than a brand new shrekian shirt pillow phone case other items we'll probably for promo images post with our with our shrekian merch yeah because we have some brag we also have other new designs uh we have the flubber mambo by danny

elfman which is a design honestly i wanted and so it had to happen also i think it's a really fun design it's great it's wonderful and we have feminist icon paddington a much demanded um i drank tea from my feminist icon paddington mug this morning because i don't recognize who i am as a person anymore drinking tea oh my gosh jamie yeah yeah i changed well uh oh and that so that you can get that over at tpublic.com slash the bechdel cast uh if you participate in valentine's day fuckery and so forth they're fun little gifts oh yes give them to whoever i was not sure where that was going for a minute because i forgot i was yeah take me on a date there i forgot that like people love each other and they give each other gifts romantically for Valentine's Day. I got a hat for the holiday.

I got a hat for the holidays. And it's from it's from a livestock contest that happened in Ventura County in 2013. Most romantic gift I've ever received. It's like, wow, you get me. Even more romantic of a gift than the $25 Olive Garden gift card that I gave you. We gotta go. We gotta go. Bye. Bye-bye.

Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks everywhere unearths the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, this is Matt Rogers. or wherever you get your podcasts. us on Las Culturistas. That's right, the queen of comedy herself. Get ready for a conversation that's as hilarious as it is insightful.

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