The Bechdel Cast - The Muppet Movie (1979)

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

IT'S JAMIE'S BIRTHDAY AND WE'RE COVERING THE MUPPET MOVIE!!! Here is the video essay by Be Kind Rewind that we cite, "Miss Piggy, Camp, and the Death of the Movie Star" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkvAckgH4Yw and grab tickets to the screening we're presenting of Chicken Run with American Cinemateque's Friend of the Fest at linktr.ee/bechdelcast  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Any thoughts? I loved it. You came in hot. You came in hot. Well, how about this one? How about this one? Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Oh, see, now you're speaking my language.

I love Beaker Stone. He's great. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Welcome to the Vectel cast. I'm in as good a mood as possible right now because we just watched the Muppet movie, 1979. And it's your birthday episode, Jamie. Happy birthday. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. It is indeed my birthday episode. Can't wait to live, laugh, love all all over my birthday I don't even know really what I'm like planning to do this year I don't have any plans it's just like a random you know

it's not an exciting birthday so we'll see we'll see what I choose I think I actually kind of just want to go to Knott's Berry Farm again I'll go with you I'll be I'll be there you want to come I was like I have made zero plans but I kind of want to go to Knott's Berry Farm. I want to go see Snoopy. I feel like it would help. And the last slash first time I went to Knott's Berry Farm, which was also on a birthday, I knew that they were like a berry farm, but I didn't know that they put berries in like any food.

I had berry meatloaf okay and it was good i was like what the fuck is going on in this place i've never been so i don't know it's really fun the theming is all over the place and it's like i would say that it's a flop but it's so kind of funny where they're like the theme is california and you're like okay but they're like but snoopy's here and berries and berries they also have their own characters like they're trying to make their own lore but it's like it's just not happening they're like the bear family you know them and you're like no who are they they're like the bear family and there's a whole ride dedicated to the bear family

they have an antagonist he's the wolf he's trying to steal all the berries and you're supposed to be invested in this journey they're on and you're just like but who the hell are they anyways i bought merch i was like yeah someone's got to because no one gives a shit about this bear family unfortunately i can't wait to go again. Let's go. Let's go. I want to get berry meatloaf. Anyways, my two birthday wishes are to go to Mnott's Berry Farm.

And to, I mean, it's such a fun time of year when you get to enforce your will on the Bechtelcast feed. It's so thrilling. What were your picks this year? You did Mr. and Mrs. Smith. You did Mars Attacks. What was the last one? Oh my gosh, who can remember? Not me. I don't know. I have no idea. It's so funny because I feel like every year I'm like, I'm out of favorite movies. I can't like what I'm just gonna have to start picking random stuff. But that's the thing about movies. There's always more good ones that you don't want to shut up about.

So yeah, this is my main feed pick. And then we'll also have some other picks going on the Patreon aka Matreon, which you can check out. Oh, wait, it was Monsters, Inc. Was my other birthday pick. Yeah, all bangers. All bangers. And yeah. So before we get into the episode about the Muppet movie, 1979, parentheses, not the Jason Segel one, even though it's fine. I feel like people are like people remember that movie less charitably than they should because they don't like jason siegel and i get it he is in the movie too much yes he's in the movie way too much and he has just like him and i was thinking about this a lot recently because of just like the terror that has been the advertising campaign

for harold and the purple crayon but like like he and Zachary Levi they like share this like bizarre aura of menace to me more so Zachary Levi I really feel like there's like something's not quite right with him I know he's like he makes me uneasy same the Shazam thing wait I think about your Shazam Shazam incident you mean the time that i went to go see shazam one with our dear friend bryant and there was someone in the elevator with us after the movie who had also just seen shazam and he's like that was so fun did you guys like it and not being able to pick up on social cues very well sometimes i was like i thought it fucking sucked and it was flimsy storytelling and it was visually bad and

everything about it sucked and the guy's like oh i liked it brian's behind me being like caitlin shut the fuck up i think that in that interaction, everyone wins. I was right to express my opinion. What? Oh, two men want to silence a femme person? No, I'm going to say my thoughts. And everyone got a great story out of that. So there's no, there's nothing wrong there.

But yeah, Zachary Levi, Aura of Menace, Jason Segel, a little bit less so. Anyways, the Muppet movie itself, I think, well, what is it? They gave it the same title. Don't do that. I think it's called The Muppets, that one. The Muppets. Yeah. It's a fine movie, but we're not talking about it today.

We're talking about real OG Muppet lore. But before we do that and six full minutes into the episode, welcome to the Bechdelcast. My name is Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante. This is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point, which, you know, it's a birthday episode. We don't really have time to get into that. We are too busy having fun talking about the Muppets. So you can just look up the Bechdel test on your own time

or listen to any of our other 500 fucking episodes. Google it. I don't think this- Sorry to be hostile about it. No, but there's, you've had 500 opportunities to get it together for today and so you know i just like don't even really know what to say to you after all we've been through it's been eight years i was gonna say something 84 years it will basically here's

something that does pass the bechdel test if you learn by example hey jamie hey caitlin Hey, Jamie. Mm-hmm. Hey, Caitlin. Oh, sorry. Happy birthday. I'm like, are you going to do the thing? Happy birthday. Happy Muppet movie day. Thank you. And that would pass. And that passed the Bechdel test. Okay.

Yeah. Anyway, Jamie, what is your relationship with this movie slash the Muppets in general? Mm-hmm. I love this movie and I love the Muppets. Pretty short story. Always have, always will. This movie in particular, I don't think I saw until like a little later on. I feel like the Muppet content I had spinning in my home, outside of Sesame Street, obviously,

which almost feels like its own thing. Yeah. But I was like raised on the Muppet movies that were coming out when I was a kid. So I'm thinking Muppet Treasure Island, Muppets in Space. Oh, my gosh. There's a Muppet Christmas Carol, like the ones that were more recent. And so I think it was like a little later. And by later, I mean, I was probably 10. Like when I saw the older Muppet movies,

great Muppet caper, the Muppet movie, Muppets take Manhattan, et cetera. And then it wasn't until college that I saw the Muppet show, which for a long time was like pretty hard to, at least unless you like bought the DVDs or whatever, like was pretty hard to access. And at least from what I

could tell, they weren't like re-aired very often. And so then I sort of had a second run of really being into the Muppets in college when I found, God, this is going to make me sound so fucking old. I found a lot of old Muppet show episodes on dailymotion.com. And I watched them and really fell in love with deep Muppet lore and how funny and edgy and cool they were. I watched the Jason Segel Muppet movies. The first one I was into, especially because do you remember the cultural moment Caitlin when we were all so excited that Brett from Flight of the Conchords won an Oscar for his Muppet song yes we were excited about that I was excited about that I was there the Tina Fey Muppet one I was like

not as much Muppets Most Wanted yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Wasn't too wild about it. Was definitely not wild about their like weird The Office ripoff that they aired. I didn't even know that existed until watching a video essay, which we'll bring up later on. But yeah, that was not on my radar at all. It was a mess. I don't know why that was so very on my radar, but I was watching that show week to week. And I remember the like backlash of I mean, it's so funny. I OK, this is my birthday episode and I have covid and my dad died.

So this is gonna be like a vibes episode. But I do like if my brain was working as normal. I do think that there's like an element of like the brief amount of time that quote unquote Kermit and Miss Piggy broke up being very similar to the times that quote unquote Barbie and Ken broke up. Where they are like an iteration of like they have to be dating forever. forever like and there are times canonically and they're definitely with Kermit and Miss Piggy where I think it's Muppets Take Manhattan where at the end they canonically get married but there's just an element to that something I really love about the Muppet world is like there's this element to it where the relationship dynamics remain the same but things just like reset every once in a while and it's like oh sure maybe it's like cathartic for some people to see miss piggy and kermit get married but in the next movie they're just dating again and like they're having the same relationship problems and there's like this kind of cyclical nature to the world of the muppets that I really love and find comforting. And I just love them.

Caitlin, who are your top Muppets? I'm really having a hard time. Like it's hard to choose, but I have like a few Muppets that I'm like, I will ride for them and a few Muppets that I'm like overrated and it's going to be controversial. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There are probably many Muppets that I don't know about or know well enough to say. Because when I share my history with the Muppets, you'll find that I have not been exposed to as much Muppet media as you perhaps. But my favorites are Gonzo, Rizzo the Rat. I like Rauf, and I'm a big fan of Statler and Waldorf. I mean, how could you not? They rock.

Yeah. So I think those are my faves. Okay. How about you? My faves are, I mean, it feels almost like a cop-out to be like, I love Kermit, but I do. Well, as you can and should. Kermit and Miss Piggy, unequivocally. I also love Rizzo.

I also love Statler and Waldorf. I think Beaker is probably my favorite. Of course. He's probably my all time favorite Muppet. And I like the Swedish chef, too. The Swedishish chef is awesome and i like fozzie bear okay see that's where we're gonna have i hate fozzie bear i just love a bear you know a bear who likes a sweet treat fozzie bear is so triggering for me think of how many delusional comedians we've spent time around fair i just think fozzie bear like there is such a beauty to the muppets world of like they're always pursuing this dream they're

always like very positive and very encouraging and i feel like fozzie bear disrupts that for me because i think he should quit i think he like his dreams could only come true completely by chance or by riding the coattails. He's talentless. He's annoying. Uh huh. I just like don't really support his dreams coming true. I just like don't. I think I just like a bear in a hat a la Paddington.

Okay. Yes, that's fair. But it's like I just like think that Fozzie Bear like doesn't deserve success. And I resent him. I resent him. I mean, we see his like shtick in this movie and it does suck very badly. So, OK, I I could be swayed against Fozzie Bear, I think. Fozzie Bear to me represents every bad stand up I've ever had to spend time with and like tacitly encourage. And I resent that.

Yeah. It's just like, you know what? No, Fozzie Bear. Like quit. Learn and trade. Get out. Like your art has no play. And I resent Fozzie Bear because he's more successful than me.

OK, so we're getting somewhere now. He's a household name. He's a household name. And we're not somewhere now he's a household name he's a household name and we're not and that's fucked up that is and it represents a lot of what's wrong with america is fozzie bear he sucks i don't like fozzie bear i think that's really my only controversial ralph i like but i feel like he's like a problematic favorite. Well, especially his conduct. His conduct. His conduct.

And I would say that I, since I was a kid, I love the band. I love Janice. Okay. Yeah. I love Animal, but I didn't really remember or realize that Animal like really was, I mean, obviously the elements of his character he's loud he screams one word he's like a pokemon on meth but that he's a bit misogynist in these early iterations i kind of forgot i kind of forgot i think that a lot of the muppets low-key don't like women and whether

this has to do with the fact that the muppet creative team is all men and we can't be sure and we can't be sure but anyways yes there's a lot to be discussed i also was thinking okay maybe i'm just thinking about the scooby-doo of it all but there was i'm trying to think if we can think of a third example of this it's a thing okay maybe it's just a coincidence but in this movie we meet like kermit's nephew scrabby do is scooby-doo's nephew like i can't think of what is that the uncle nephew relationship being like critical i don't know oh well i, there's Scrooge McDuck. Is that his name? And then his

nephews, Huey, Dewey, and Louie. That's interesting. I don't have a specific thought on it, but it's like all movies are about fathers and sons, but every once in a while they're about uncles and nephews. Whoa. Makes you think. It's kind of interesting. I mean, Robin the Frog doesn't really have much of a role

in this except to be like, Hey, Uncle Kermit, is this a movie? And he's like, yes. Anyways, I hate Fozzie Bear. I just wanted to get that out of the way at the top. Point well taken. And I'm finding myself less enthusiastic about Fozzie. And I would just say to all of the fans like

Fozzie fans do not interact with me I don't want to hear from you I'm not interested in a counter-argument like I've heard it all you're not gonna sell me on him yeah okay fair period my history with the Muppets yes I like the Mets a lot, although a lot of what I know about them comes either from cultural osmosis or specifically the Muppet Christmas Carol, which is my favorite holiday movie of all time. But I haven't really consumed a whole lot of other Muppet media. And if there are Muppets who weren't in the Muppet Christmas Carol, I have no idea who they are. For example, I was on a kickball team when I lived in Boston,

Bragg, that was called the Electric Mayhem. And I had no idea that that was a Muppets reference for the entire like three years that I was on that kickball team. I think that that is a deceptively like deep cut. I think. I thought so too. But they're also like popular enough that people named a kickball team after them. Anyway, I have seen a few of the other Muppet movies, especially Muppet Treasure Island. Although there's a Muppet Treasure Island video game, like a computer, like you put in your little CD-ROM and there was a video game that I played way more than I watched the movie. I think I've seen Muppets Take Manhattan. I thought I had seen

the Muppet movie 1979. But as I was watching it for this episode, You hadn't seen it? Nothing was familiar. Yeah, but as I was watching it for this episode, you hadn't seen it. Nothing was familiar. Yeah, I think this was my first time. Wow. Oh, that's so fun. And then I did see the Muppets 2011 and Muppets Most Wanted 2014. But yeah, I never really saw any of the shows that existed aside from, you know, Sesame Street. But again, like specifically like shows revolving around these Muppet characters haven't watched any of those shows.

Yeah. Only watched a handful of the movies. So, yeah, really, it's Muppet Christmas Carol. Wow. I don't know why I thought you had a closer connection with the Muppets. That's like that's fascinating. Muppets Treasure Island was definitely a moment I remember like my cousin Chloe had the VHS and one of the only true fights I remember getting into with her was over who could marry Jim from Muppet Treasure

Island and it could only be one of us and we got into a huge fight about it and i lost because she pushed me and started making out with the tv screen when jim from muppet treasure island was on which meant i'd been bested and children are amazing I think that was the first movie that I saw Tim Curry in and I was like who's this he's an icon I love him Tim Curry I mean iconic icon there I also was really

I mean the Muppet movie the one we're talking about today like is such a fun like in the years I feel like every time I watch this movie I recognize one person i didn't recognize before because it's like the who's who of the 70s kind of yeah and yeah it's so fun richard pryor is in this movie elliot gould elliot gould is in multiple muppet movies oh no kidding yeah i think he's also in the muppetsets Take Manhattan. I think he was maybe just a fan.

Aw. Well, like, celebrities, like, when the show was airing in the 70s, like, they were lining up to be guest stars on The Muppet Show, I read. It's really amazing. I mean, I was thinking the same thing about, I recently re-watched the Pee Wee Herman Christmas special from 1988 and it's like I know that now we think of that as like some random show from the late 80s early 90s but kind of the same deal at the time where it was like everyone was in this where like oprah winfrey was on it whoopi goldberg grace jones little richard like

frankie avalon like share like every single share of mamma mia 2 fame her most famous credit besides the pb's christmas special like yeah it was just like every single person. Zsa Zsa Gabor. Whoa. It's just like, it's really fun revisiting stuff like that. Even if they're not like celebrities that connect for you, which certainly the Muppet Movie won. None of them. I'm like, oh, cool. But it is cool seeing like something that is very wholesome and kind, you know, drawing in so many people.

I know, right? And it's like a cool time capsule i'm like i feel like i sort of get 1979 ish and also just like i feel like the celebrity cameos are very well paced in this too where it's like at the very end of the movie you hit orson wells a person you never think will appear in a muuppet movie. And there he is. And there he is. Wild. Giving them a contract to be rich and famous. So cool.

Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and recap it. Yeah. We'll be right back. Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch, and I'm exhausted. But turns out, the end is near, right in help me out, like Ezra Klein, Van Jones, Jen Psaki, Astead Herndon, and political strategists like Karl Rove and David Axelrod. But we're also going to have some fun, even though these days fun and politics seems like an oxymoron.

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Waka waka. Here we go again. Here we go again. Welcome. Welcome. Here we go again. Wow. I Caitlin, I have to say, I feel like I have not given due attention to the fact that I hope that this opens a Muppet era for you.

Because what I've found is that like, I saw Muppets Take Manhattan in theaters recently like they still pretty frequently reshow these movies for like children's matinees but still counts yeah of course yeah yeah I want to see more of the movies certainly so I'll make it a point to do that. I'll come with anytime. Excellent. In the meantime, here is the story of the Muppet movie that all the Muppets have gathered to watch. So it's very meta. They're watching the movie that they're in. Which is the whole point. I mean, that's all of the Muppet show is like, they're so good at doing behind the scenes, like showbiz stuff. It's awesome.

Yeah. And the whole gang is there. We've got Kermit the Frog. We've got Miss Piggy. Fozzie. Boo. Gonzo is there. The Electric Mayhem. Statler and Waldorf.

You know, all the Muppets you know and love. Except for Rizzo the Rat. Where's he? What the fuck? I don't know. I wonder if this predates Rizzo. I wonder. Let's see.

Let's look up the Rizzo the Rat Wikipedia page because I did a fair amount of research. OK, so wait, I just remembered something that's a part of my history. One of my favorite Muppets properties is Muppets Wizard of Oz. Oh, yes. With Ashanti. Yes. Yes. That's really good. That was like one of the more modern ones that I've heard. I remember watching that because it like aired on TV. Yeah, I saw it on DVD, but I loved it. I thought it was hilarious when I watched it in like 2006

or something. It was really cute. And this is, okay, I know that this is a very common, whatever. It's a birthday episode. You have to deal with it if you're listening. It's a very common criticism, but the fact that Disney bought Jim Henson Studios and the Muppets like IP I want to say well over 10 years ago now it was in 2004 20 years ago yeah and they have yet to really do very much with it I mean not that there hasn't been attempts I know that there have been Disney plus shows some of which have been good Netflix shows,

stuff like that. But in terms of like a huge return to form, I feel like the Jason Segel movies were kind of it and that the rest have either been like underperformed or been under promoted or there's just, I don't know. It makes me sad that the Muppets are right there and they're so like rife for, I don't know.

You look at like, I haven't seen it, but like how well meta comedy plays in the general market where like Deadpool just made a billion dollars and he's fucking annoying. And meanwhile, Kermit's rotting like a whole cast of beloved characters that do meta Hollywood commentary like historically better than most just not being put to use at all it just is a damn shame I checked and Rizzo the rat does not debut till 1980 so that is why this is happening because I do know that at the end which I can't wait to talk about the very, very end of the Muppet movie where it's that huge crowd of Muppets sort of doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection.

That included every single Muppet that had ever been canonically introduced up until that time. So it was like 250 Muppets. And Rizzo just unfortunately did not quite exist yet. Also, did you know that Rizzo is based on a character in Midnight Cowboy? Was it the Dustin Hoffman character? Yes. Yes, because his name is Ratso Rizzo. Yeah.

And so they made a rat named Rizzo. And that's wild. We can't get into Rizzo lore today because he wasn't there. But it's like really let that sink in. Especially because Midnight Cowboy, I think, is technically an X rated movie. So for them to make a reference. Well, yeah, because it was too gay for 1969. Yeah. So that's amazing. I love that detail. Me too. I'm smiling.

Anyway, so the Muppets start watching the movie, which opens on Kermit in a swamp singing about the Rainbow Connection. And he's approached in a boat by a guy named bernie who turns out to be a big hollywood agent who recognizes kermit's talent and tells him about an audition for frogs who are looking to become rich and famous and kermit is intrigued boy is he on his way home where kermit is riding a bicycle, which is a pretty awesome special effect. Which had never happened before. Like, it was a huge

moment. I think it is considered one of the great moments in cinema. And I don't even think I'm joking. No, you're not. And it's true. Yeah. Anyway, he rides past a billboard advertising a restaurant. Doc hopper's french fried frog legs and kermit is like what the fuck is that then he wanders into a bar called el slizo

awesome where fozzie bear is doing prop comedy but the audience him. So Kermit jumps up on stage to try to help him. They start dancing, which is seen by Doc Hopper, the owner of that frog leg restaurant, played by Charles Durning, along with his minion, Max. It's true. So played by someone who is a Muppets person. Like he's a. Yeah.

Some inside baseball kind of guy. I honestly, with all due respect. Austin Pendleton. Oh, oh. And he also is the voice of Kermit's nephew. Oh, OK. Wow. Look at God.

So anyway, that's Max. He's a minion. He's the Kevin, if you will, of the group. They see Kermit dancing and Doc Hopper is like, Oh, who's that frog? Who's that frog? Meanwhile, Kermit invites Fozzie to come with him to Hollywood. So they set off in Fozzie's uncle's Studebaker. But Doc Hopper is following them and he approaches Kermit to try to get him to be the spokesperson or rather spokes frog for his frog leg restaurant but kermit is like hard pass and he and fozzy continue on their way

you might even say they're moving right along and i'm willing to put my feelings about fozzy bear aside to say that this is an amazing song it's pretty good yeah it is after another run-in with doc hopper kermit and fozzie stop at a church where a band of musical muppets called the electric mayhem is playing we've got dr teeth janice animal the others they're there and they're like what brings you here so kermit gives them the screenplay for the muppet movie that we are currently watching so that the band can be brought up to speed hilarious joke i know and it's so like i do think that a lot of the gags that the muppets do would be annoying to me if it was not Muppets doing them. If it was Deadpool, for example.

Again, yes. I think if you apply, because unfortunately, and I don't like to say this, but they're pulling from the same meta playbook. But when Deadpool does it, it's, it hits a little bit different. Even if you like, I, you know, and I'm over 30 now, you know, I can't be like, if you like Deadpool, shut the hell, like, you know, who cares? But now you know I can't be like if you like Deadpool shut the hell like you know who cares but the Muppets do it better they do it better I will say that I did see Deadpool and Wolverine and the jokes that I liked the best were the like meta Hollywood commentary jokes about Disney jokes about MCU within the movie those are the jokes I tended

to find the funniest sure maybe I have a small brain I don't know no you don't have a small brain I think like the thing that really hits for me I mean I think it's just easier and more fun to watch a puppet do anything sure but also I mean my at least my understanding, unless I'm not fully understanding the business situation at the time, is that like part of what bugs me about Deadpool is that, I mean, first of all, he's annoying. Right. Fine. But that that same company that's making the stuff he's making fun of is profiting off of making fun of the thing that the where it like yeah he's in the mcu the same people profit off of him talking about how mcu movies suck and at least the muppets not that they were like outsider like they were underdogs like they were unbelievably popular at this time yeah but they weren't owned by disney you know it's like they were still sort of like doing their own thing

which is like maybe a little more palatable and maybe just for me funnier. But yeah, without doubt, I love the Electric Mayhem. They're so good. They're so fun. I love Janet. Don't you love Janet? I don't know. There's something.

Sorry, I'm tired. Again, because they weren't in Muppet Christmas Carol, I don't know them. And I don't really feel one way or the other about them. Sorry. I also don't like the design of most of those puppets. Here's something that I was going to bring up later. But I think that something we talk about very frequently in children's media and animation is that there's a very gendered approach to the design of the characters and i think that the muppets are like they straddle kind of an interesting

line here where i feel like they are but also are doing it less than normal where the very comparatively few because you do sort of have a like smurf aspect to why is this Muppet world so dominated by men? And the women you see are very femme presenting. But I appreciate that when there are women and femme Muppet characters that they can still look fucking weird. It doesn't just look like a sexy adult woman. True. Like we've talked about in a million children and animated properties where it's like it's so absurd to think of a woman looking not, you know, Western beauty standards hot. Which I know it's like that is definitely arguable in the way that miss piggy is presenting all this stuff but like i like that janice looks comparably weird to the rest of the band fair but yeah i uh even though i was on a kickball team named after them i'm just like

whatever i love caitlin lore i love it where you guys play? We played at this park just outside of Harvard Square. So every Sunday I would ride my bike to the park. My team was so good. And one year we went to the national championships in Vegas. What? Yeah. How did I not know this? I don't know.

That was the first time I ever went to Vegas. I flew there from Boston. Oh my God. That's so cool. I could not afford it because I just started grad school. But I was like, this is my one chance to go to Vegas. I have to go with my kickball team. That's so cool.

Yeah. Yeah. How did you all do? So it was like a tournament of I forget how many teams, but we definitely lost and were like eliminated in the first round of games. But that was OK because I just like hung out by the pool the rest of our time to spend in Vegas. That rocks.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. So fun little fact about me. You are the most successful athlete I know. I should be in the Olympics. You should. You should. Have you seen that TikTok trend? Oh god me sounding a thousand years old again. But have you seen that TikTok trend? That boils down to unfortunately I have not been admitted to the paris olympics 2024 and it's just like people reposting them sucking at high school sports no i have not seen this it's mostly

gymnastics and swimming clips of just like someone accidentally belly flopping or like jumping on the balance beam and getting their crotch just shattered but pretty fun i love i love it yeah okay well anyways the muppet movie am i right you were so right so basically now the electric mayhem know what's happening and why kermit and Fozzie are there. And they want to help Kermit avoid Doc Hopper. So they paint Fozzie's Studebaker so that Doc Hopper won't recognize the car. Kermit then invites the band to accompany them to Hollywood, but they decline. So Kermit and fozzie head out on the road again this time they run into gonzo and his chicken wife his chicken wife okay that is that's canon that's predating canon i see yeah camilla and gonzo are end game and it's interesting because we just before this recorded our intro to Chicken Run and I feel like Camilla has the juice.

She has the riz to be treated like a Chicken Run chicken and she's not. And we should be talking about that. Well, she comes up in my notes later on. Thank God. Thank God, me too. We'll circle back. we will but gonzo wants to be a movie star we don't know what camilla wants because no one checks in with her yeah we're not

supposed to care yeah it's all about what gonzo wants and so he and camilla join them on the trip to hollywood the group stops at a used car lot to get a bigger car they also stop at a county fair where miss piggy is competing in and wins a beauty pageant and the moment she sees kermit it's love at first sight she imagines her life with kermit they meet and kermit invites miss piggy to join him for ice cream but she mistakes this for an invitation to go with them to hollywood but before they can really clear that up, Gonzo flies away because he's holding a bunch of balloons. Yeah, he goes full up mode. Yeah, for sure. Everyone piles in the car to catch him, which they do after a near run in with Doc Hopper, who is still following them with his minion Max.

Although Max is starting to have misgivings about this whole thing. Meanwhile, Miss Piggy is lusting after Kermit, and she suggests they stop so that she and Kermit can have a romantic dinner. Steve Martin is their server. Because it's 1979, and these sorts of things would happen. Yes. She steps away to answer a call from her agent but then it seems like she leaves all together and like stands kermit up so he is sad and then he starts talking to the piano player ralph who sings a song about women you can't live with them You can't live with them. You can't live without them.

And we're like, okay, feminist icon, Ralph. Come on, Ralph. It's not right. Then Kermit learns that Miss Piggy is gone because Doc Hopper abducted her. And then he kidnaps Kermit too. And we're like, oh no, is this going to be a damsel situation? And you're

like, well, let them cook. Let them cook. Give it a second. Yeah. But Doc Hopper has hired a Nazi doctor played by Mel Brooks. Which I think is a pre-existing character from Mel Brooks. I'm fairly certain he'd played versions of this character before probably and in fact now that i say i think he in fact played a version of this character on the muppet show oh okay previously so i think this if you were seeing this in 1979 and you were a muppets fan this would have been a callback to mel brooks playing said nazi doctor which is like in his catalog of characters is not unheard of. Right, right, right. Because the producers had already come out. That's a good question. I think it might have. Yeah, I think that that was the late 60s.

Yeah, 1967. Yeah. So this was I mean, this was like if you were a Mel Brooks fan. And obviously, if you live under a rock, he's a Jewish comedian. Like this was very much in his playbook. It's a little disorienting in the middle of a Muppet movie. But I think even if you were a Muppet fan, this would have been a callback to an episode he'd already done with them. Got it. Okay. In any case, he has been hired by Doc Hopper to brainwash Kermit so that he will agree to be in Doc Hopper's commercials. But Miss Piggy breaks loose and does her signature chop kick move. Iconic. To attack the doctor and all of the minions, and she saves Kermit. But then she immediately bails on him because her agent calls and offers her a commercial.

And this is why we love Miss Piggy so much is because she's trying to have it all and it's not quite possible. Exactly. But she's career first. She chooses career. It's awesome when she's like, well, I have to go. I got a commercial. Yeah.

You're just like, yes, she's awesome. Mm hmm. I have to go. I got a commercial. Yeah. You're just like, yes, she's awesome. So anyway, Kermit and friends head back on the road. Sans, Miss Piggy, plus Ralph. But they come upon Piggy hitchhiking to Hollywood. So they pick her up again. Although Kermit is a bit sour that she left him. And fair enough. Yeah.

I'm excited to talk about their relationship because for me, it's kind of all over the place. But anyway, they're in the car, but it breaks down. So they have to camp for the night in the desert. And they realize that they're probably not going to make it to this Hollywood audition, which is the next day and kermit thinks it's all his fault and that he has let his friends down plus doc hopper has hired a specialist to kill kermit if he doesn't agree to be in the commercials so things are looking pretty low

for kermit the frog but then the electric mayhem shows up in their tour bus. They knew where to find the group because they read the screenplay to the Muppet movie that Kermit had left behind. So they show up and they all set off in the bus. They get pulled over by a cop who turns out to be Doc Hopper's minion, Max, who wants to warn them about this like frog killer that's after Kermit. And Kermit decides to have a showdown with Doc Hopper because he's tired of running away. He's going to face his bully. Yeah. face his bully yeah so they head to this ghost town where kermit meets dr bunsen honeydew and

his assistant beaker oh and at that point it's such a relief because you're like is beaker going to be in the movie and you know two-thirds of the way in they're like not to worry beaker is on the way. And he's like, me, me, me, me, me. And you're like, yes! What a legend. And something I love about Beaker that I feel like in the last 10 years we've really lost sight of is that I don't need to know anything more about Beaker than I already know. I feel like in the modern context, they're like, okay, let's do a very serious limited series about how Beaker came to me, me, me, me, me. And it's like, I actually don't, I don't need to know. I just feel like Beaker comes through to me so clearly that it's not a big deal. We need no more information. Say no more. say no more i get it in any case dr bunsen and beaker have developed these instagrow pills that make anything temporarily huge and we're like hmm wonder how that's gonna pay off this is also echoed in minions one when kevin gets so big oh my gosh you're right whoa but in this case animal gets so big and yeah it all sort of yeah

comes back true so what happens is doc hopper shows up and there's this like cowboy standoff thing between him and kermit and doc hopper is about to kill kermit but then animal who has eaten one of those instagrow pills is suddenly huge and it scares doc hopper and his minions away so the muppets are free to travel the rest of the way to Hollywood, and they enter the office of a producer named Lou Lord, played by Orson Welles. Awesome. Just so awesome. It's so funny because Kermit's like,

uh, we're here to be rich and famous. And then Orson Welles, you know, he looks very stony-faced and stoic, and he's pumping on a cigar. He's like full- late Orson Welles. Like he's like very he is old Hollywood. It's awesome. True.

And you think he's going to be like, who the fuck are you guys? Get out of here. But instead, he's like, my assistant played by Cloris Leachman, drop the rich and famous contract. And we're like, they didn't even have to audition. That's how good the Muppets are. Yeah, Orson Welles, I mean, Orson Welles could spot raw Riz. It's just like, it's so awesome. Yeah, and he is pretty much real life Lou Grade,

who is the producer who financed the Muppet movie in real life. So another meta joke here. Then we cut to the Muppets starting production on the Muppet movie. They're doing the reprise of the Rainbow Connection. And then we flash forward back to the screening room where all of the Muppets are watching the finished movie. And that's the end of the Muppet movie. So let's take another quick break and we'll come back to discuss. Hey, everyone, it's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch and I'm exhausted.

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And we're back. Before we jump into the nitty gritty discussion discussion i just like i watched this movie earlier this year which normally i mean i've watched it like maybe once every five years but earlier this year happened to get into a muppet hole because i found out that my boyfriend had never seen most of like really any muppet movie before he hadn't seen them like any muppet movies or the muppet show and so i was like oh this is good and then at the new beverly they were doing an afternoon matinee of muppets take manhattan and it all just felt very kismet and so i was like showing him the great muppet oeuvre um and we watched this movie and so i've been thinking they've just been on my mind a lot this year and i really really love the end scene to this movie i think

it's so like poignant and so special where i don't know and i think this happens like pretty frequently with the muppets gang where they're always pursuing this dream they're always underdogs and in other movies it's even more emphasized that they are these underdogs who want to make it big and then eventually they do after kermit has an existential crisis which i also love but how at the end of this movie, they get everything they ever wanted. They achieve this dream. And then it all collapses. And it's essentially a return to their underdogs again. They have gotten everything they ever wanted.

And yet, for some reason, their set collapses and they've completely failed. And their movie isn't going to happen and then it's still okay and it's like they're just going to start pursuing it again and somehow this like grand failure at the end of the movie is all a part of what the plan was the whole time and then they turn to the camera and you know it's like there's this very reassuring pure wonderful thing i can't think of many movies that do that one of my favorite movies does school of rock where like these scrappy the scrappy group like gets to the very top they get further than you would ever imagine and then they still fail and it's like they're still reveling in like the joy of that failure and how it brought them together and i just think that's really beautiful it's one of my favorite things about movies at all

is that that life is full of these setbacks And that is also part of what makes life very interesting. So I love that this movie ends on a huge win with the Orson Welles thing, and they get to make their movie, but then they kind of don't. But then they sort of do. But then they do because they're watching the movie that they made in the screening room.

Exactly. Exactly. I just I really love the sequence where the set falls and they don't panic because after the set falls, there is something beautiful and the rainbow comes in and it's all corny. But I just like it. I don't know. Both times I've seen it this year. It made me very emotional because that's so cool. And it feels very connected to just general Jim Henson lore.

I'm really interested in Jim Henson lore and like how many false starts and how challenging it was for him to get even that far in making Muppet stuff where I think most people thought he would have topped out at creating Sesame Street and that there was no adult market for what he was doing. And just the sort of like stops and starts and really trying to make it happen. And this movie being such an amazing example of like, no, it really, really worked, but it was still punctuated by all these failures. I just love it i find it very inspiring and sweet and just like a cool universal thing i love the muppets did i tell you so there was this show that would happen in la calledian Cinema Club that we would occasionally participate in. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so basically it was comedians loosely recreating the plots of specific movies, but it was like a lot of improv and you were just sort of doing it from memory. It was so fun. It was super fun. And one time when I was doing it, we were doing the movie Labyrinth. Oh, I remember that and someone from the jim henson studio in la came to watch that show and then they invited the whole cast of comedians who performed on the show to the jim henson studio so we all went and like got a little like private tour yeah it was super

cool it's a small tiny little studio but it's in all these like cool little bungalows yeah yeah i've passed it a million times and i think it's closing too which is really sad that would be so sad yeah but yeah that you like go in different rooms it's just a lot of like you know production offices but there's a lot of like familiar models of Muppets and other, you know, Sesame Street characters and things like that. They're like, wow, look at that little guy. Anyway, it was fun. It really is incredible how much of an impact. And like Jim Henson, something I would really, I'll send the links to so we can include it in the notes to this episode is there is a real I mean,

there's been a lot written about Jim Henson's life. And I don't mean to single any single thing out. But the thing that was easiest for me to consume, and I really enjoyed was a few years back, probably a while ago now, defunct land, one of my favorite YouTube channels did an incredible multi part analysis and documentary on Jim Henson's life and legacy. And he was an extremely flawed person as anyone is. But just the fact that in like such a short amount of time, he was able to make such an incredible impact is just really special and really cool. And I don't know, I know it's like not part of what this show is to be like this man, but like it's really, it's really special.

And I feel like that as we'll get into also for me very much applies to Frank Oz, who is thankfully still with us and has been a fixture in so much iconic work in the last, you know, 50, 60 years. Especially because he's Miss Piggy and like all of the stuff that comes with that. So, I don't know. Do we want to start with Miss Piggy? Let's start with Miss Piggy. Now, listen. Here's the thing. Is is miss piggy an emotionally abusive partner i would say maybe yes yes but i love her i would say she's also physically abusive at times and she's not good at respecting boundaries i agree i agree i on paper, it doesn't look good for her.

But I feel like Miss Piggy is a character like that is so rooted in camp and satire and catharsis. It is like this is being consumed by children. And I certainly hope that young femmes were not karate chopping their male counterparts after this. But I also don't think that a lot of people are mapping their relationship goals on Kermit and Miss Piggy. I don't know. I could be wrong about that. But because the Muppets have historically been consumed by children and adults, it feels to me like Miss Piggy is a character that is like rooted in subversion and in camp and in doing something you wouldn't expect and in some ways that beat to beat it does not always hold up but I really appreciate the spirit of her character where she is rooted in this you know like can't be there's a great video essay that i know we've both watched by be kind rewind who is just like so wonderful about the history of

who miss piggy is and how rooted she is in all of these like hollywood divas of the 20th century especially old hollywood divas and this very glamorous woman trying to have it all who's very over the top and all of this stuff. And there are so many references to past movies and movies and history to who she is. At her core, what I really love about Miss Piggy is that she is a character who very much wants a career and wants success and wants a romantic relationship. And I feel like that is like at its core something we

do not get very much of. We're very often presented with someone who is very motivated towards one or the other. And it's a very common experience to want both. And even as over the top, and yes, do I think that, you know, it's like if I'm writing a dissertation on, do I think Kermit and Miss Piggy have a healthy relationship? No. But I think that the spirit of what she's doing of like, trying to have a relationship where she can love and feel loved, and pursue a dream aggressively. It's like, it's cool. It's rare. And I feel like in most situations, especially from the group of women and stars that she's pulling from, these people don't often get to have it all. They get one or the other.

And it's their tragic downfall either way. And Miss Piggy, in the way that this universe resets and resets and resets, she does have it all for the most part. And she's often striving towards one thing or the other. But you know that there is a certain amount of security and like she will achieve her dream. She will have the relationship that she wants. And I think like it's weirdly cathartic and nice, especially because she is so intensely herself where, you know, and in order to be loved, she doesn't have to compromise who she is so intensely herself where, you know, and in order to be loved,

she doesn't have to compromise who she is. And I really appreciate that about her. I think, yeah, beat to beat it's imperfect extremely, but that's also cool because so many characters who are women are presented in this pretty like one-dimensional way as far as they don't have any flaws because like the men writing these characters sure haven't given enough thought to the women they're writing that they don't seem like fully formed people with strengths and flaws but both in her pursuit of like success in show business

and her relationship with kermit like she's fucking up a lot of the time yeah and that's also refreshing to see a woman not be perfect again and again and still be loved however i do think especially because this is like fairly early into miss piggy's tenure i guess yeah and i know that the character has been revised to sort of meet the um expectations of the time repeatedly up until about almost 10 years ago in 2015 when this like shitty abc mockumentary show was being released in 2015 miss piggy wrote an op-ed for time magazine called miss piggy why i am a feminist pig And this character has been revised and updated so many times to sort of meet whatever cultural moment is required in a way that feels, for the most part, genuine.

And I think that in 79, she is very subversive, but also, like, yeah, at every phase of kermit and piggy's relationship kermit does feel sort of bullied into the relationship yes every time i see a troubling moment with kermit and piggy i'm sort of like they should go to couples counseling i'm sure they have canonically at least once because it does seem like he loves her. Sometimes. And other times he's like, get away from me. So that's why I think their relationship is all over the place, at least in the confines of this movie. Right. We don't meet Miss Piggy until about 40 minutes into the movie.

Up until then. I mean, we see Janice briefly. And that's a problem. But other than that, there are no other Muppets of a marginalized gender. Right. Until Miss Piggy is introduced again about 40 minutes into the movie. She wins the beauty pageant. She sees Kermit and is immediately smitten. She imagines her whole life with him. Kermit has no such dream sequence as far

as any like longing to be with Piggy forever. He notices her, but it's not like he is, he doesn't reciprocate this like crush right away. And we have also seen Kermit invite every other Muppet that he has encountered on this trip to Hollywood, including Muppets that he barely interacts with, such as Sweetums, who is the like person sized Muppet at the car dealership, which I left out of the recap. But they like barely even talk to him but still a relevant character yes and also so sad when they're like do you want to come and then he runs away to like grab his suitcase but then they thought he was like rejecting them so they drove away and then he comes back to be like wait not too dissimilar from what happens with Miss Piggy, where, like, in this case, Miss Piggy misunderstands. I mean, they both misunderstand. Right.

It's just that Sweetums needs to learn to use his words a little bit better. But what struck me about the Miss Piggy situation is that, like, why wouldn't Kermit, who knows that Miss Piggy has aspirations of becoming a performer and a star and all of this why wouldn't he invite her along and instead she invites herself along and is there a gendered thing to that or is it just that Miss Piggy has made Kermit uncomfortable which we also saw her do that was sort of my my take on it where it was like i think she did make him uncomfortable i don't know it's so hard because it's like at this point what are we doing we're pathologizing the muppets well that's our job i guess so and we have to live with that but yeah i don't know i i sort of was going back and forth on that where maybe that is like part

of why their relationship is so interesting where it is like a little bit confusing of like does he not want her to come is he kind of like freaked out by having a romantic feeling like which is it and I honestly I mean on this viewing I wasn't totally sure where it doesn't seem like he's disinterested or like does not like her it seems like they get along well but I don't know I mean there's especially in a like an ambiguous romantic interaction where I feel like there's the feeling of like well they wouldn't want to come with me like they're so cool they wouldn't you know and it feels like they're so cool they wouldn't you know and it feels like there's an element of that but then i think you can also look at it on the flip side

of like she is kind of pressuring him into taking her along i don't know i think that there's a lot of different ways to interpret that interaction and that's part of why their relationship is so like not healthy, but definitely compelling. Right. Well, because after that, she has like invited herself along. She gets in the car and then is like, let's have a romantic dinner. And she keeps being like flaky and she leaves. And sometimes that's because she's been abducted by Doc Hopper. But she'll often, you know, as we've said, she won't hesitate to like, take a call from her agent. And she always seems to be putting if there's a career opportunity that comes up, she'll put that first over Kermit.

Right. So up until that point, it seems like Kermit is just sort of going along with this. He doesn't seem as enthusiastic about spending time with Miss Piggy as she feels about spending time with him. But then when she leaves and he thinks that she has stood him up, he's heartbroken. And then there's that scene with Rolf where he's like, oh, man, away from women that's my motto right and then he sings the song about how you can't live with him you can't live without him and we're like right Rolf and you're like Rolf you're being counterproductive and again I think this is part of why Kermit and Piggy are so interesting and why I can understand the argument

for like kids are seeing this movie they shouldn't witness this like kind of unhealthy dynamic but I also think that when you're a kid I don't know this just does feel different to me in tone than like when you're a kid and you see a princess movie, it just feels more authoritative in the way that the values of the movie are presented than a Muppet movie. I could be wrong about that. I don't know. I enjoy watching these movies more than I enjoy watching a princess movie because those feel very firmly for children and very like here is the value. Here is the sin. Here is the choice.

And like in this, it's sort of presented more like, well, you know, you know, like it's so silly in a way that I think weirdly a lot of children's movies aren't silly. Where I think that both of them are kind of making unhealthy, ego driven choices throughout this relationship. And so it's hard, at least in my view, it's kind of hard to take a side. Yeah. Because I do think that Miss Piggy can absolutely be a bully. And I also think that Kermit can kind of be like, I don't know. I mean, Miss Piggy is certainly the more aggressive party in the relationship. But you also see moments where Kermit has not expressed a lot

of interest in her and she walks away right and then he's like well wait a second why don't you want to be my girlfriend and you're like well you kind of rejected her you know that's the thing with kermit he needs to express he needs to learn how to understand and express his feelings more effectively because he's either like get him yeah i'm gonna get kermit's ass right now ready uh-huh no he just like if he is interested or if he is not interested he needs to communicate those things more clearly but he doesn't he doesn't seem to have any you know what kermit needs to grow a spine and he needs to express his feelings more clearly and communicate better frogs even have spines they do they're vertebrae yes they do okay sorry

yeah they're they're amphibians which which are one of the... Okay, drag me. Yeah. Okay, a little science lesson. Shut the hell up. I'm Dr. Bunsen Honeydew, okay? I'm just Mrs. Beaker over here being like, really? Really? Yeah. So no, amphibians have vertebrae, so they have spines. Okay.

But Kermit doesn't. And he needs to freaking grow one and learn how to communicate more effectively. Because when he's aloof, I don't know what that means for how he's feeling. When he's uncomfortable, he doesn't say that. I don't know what he's feeling. And neither does Miss Piggy. And again, I think that that is like what is compelling about their relationship as these are two very emotionally immature characters who are almost the perfect storm of emotional immaturity because the ways in which they're emotionally immature, they can't understand the other. where like Miss Piggy is so straightforward and when she doesn't receive straightforward feedback in return, she's either hurt or like, okay, I'm going to move on.

And Kermit is so, it seems like kind of like compartmentalized and like not sure how to express emotion and affection for whatever canonical reason. But I also feel like it's playing on at least in the opinion of or in the view of the writers who are majority men, which is important to keep in mind is that this is, you know, men of I'm assuming varying emotional maturity. They're interpreting how men interpret emotions versus women. And it is kind of this binary view. But it does seem like these are two characters who, at least in my opinion,

and it seems like in the writer's opinions, do genuinely care for each other and do love each other. But the reason that they are like in this it's different than barbie and ken in that way because like barbie and ken at least outside of the greta gerwig lore are kind of perfect and so it's like almost a more ambiguous loop but with Kermit and Piggy you almost understand why there's no conclusion because they don't necessarily grow significantly as individuals right where Miss Piggy is always you know it's like they just never go to therapy and so they're in this infinity loop of like we love each other but we cannot adequately express it to the other. So it never feels completely secure.

And that sucks. It does. I also think it's worth noting again, because we've brought this up, but the person who brings Miss Piggy to life is a man. It's Frank Oz. Yeah, it's like Shakespearean, basically, how this all plays out. Right. So it's Frank Oz who both voices Miss Piggy and is the like puppeteer for her. And he was also the person who had a big hand in kind of developing. Hand. A literal hand. It's his hand, Caitlin. He shoves his hand up inside her and brings her to life.

Relatable much? No. Uh-huh. I mean, such things have happened. Yes. Yes. Anyway, he was the person to largely develop her as a character. And that video essay that you mentioned, entitled Miss Piggy Camp and the Death of the Movie Star, the Be Kind Rewind video essay, dives into this a lot as far as Frank oz brings this character to life but it's like a man interpreting a woman's behavior and so there are examples of like miss piggy being quote-unquote hysterical which is like okay is that a man's interpretation of how a woman behaves but there's also this element of like she is mimicking these

like old hollywood stars who have a tendency to like be very melodramatic in their performances in movies and like that's who miss piggy is emulating i feel like you could make the argument that miss piggy even though it seems like like Frank Oz initially is like uncomfortable really taking this on, is a drag character. Like. Fair. Because she pulls so heavily from this era of exaggerated femininity in aesthetics, in behavior. Miss Piggy to me seems like Frank Oz not fully understanding that he's performing a drag character. That's so interesting. But yeah, I agree. Because there's

this element of her character, which again, like Frank Oz helped to develop where, you know, she acts like this diva. She's mimicking these old Hollywood stars. she's putting on an air of like sophistication and class that she doesn't actually have because like deep down miss piggy is a farm girl she's a farm pig he keeps calling her a truck driver who will like beat your ass if you piss her off. Right, which is just like another way of saying like a woman who comes from like humble beginnings who has been launched to this level of glamour and fame that requires a level of docility and femininity that would be impossible with the amount of effort and determination it would take

to get there in the first place, which is the situation was so. I mean, that's what I love about Be Kind Rewind's video essay is that it's so clearly demonstrated of like where Miss Piggy's character is pulling from and how it feels like in conversation with Pearl. Yeah. yeah more recent movie which is also referenced in that video essay but just about how anyone who is presented to you in the way miss piggy is on such a large platform you know historically would have had to either come from privilege and money or really had to work their ass off to get to the top. And often when you see women and femmes get to the top, the expectation is to be like, oh, I don't know. And like Miss Piggy does that in a way that is obviously put on. And I love that.

I don't know. I wonder, I mean, Frank Oz is in his 80s, so who fucking knows. But yeah, Miss Piggy does feel like one of our iconic drag characters to me. Mm-hmm. Definitely. I want to talk about the scene, we touched on it a little bit, but just to kind of reiterate, the scene where Kermit and Miss Piggy are both being held captive. And she's saying to Kermit, like, oh, I know you have a great plan to rescue us. And it seems like it's going to be up to Kermit to save Miss Piggy. You know, that classic trope of a woman needs to be saved by a man. She's expecting that this will

happen. But Kermit does nothing to save them them he gets put in an even more compromised situation where he's about to be brainwashed and it's miss piggy is the one who has to break free from her restraints she fights off all the bad guys there's like a half a dozen guys that she beats the shit out of and then she saves kermit from being brainwashed and then puts the big bad of this scene which is the mel brooks nazi doctor character puts him in the brainwashing machine and then he turns into a frog or something and then she bails onto him and then she's like bye kermit i booked a commercial see you later it's so hard to not be on her side here because it's like she subverts everything that you expect the damsel in distress because that is how like she's set up as a damsel

in distress i feel like very knowingly by the writers and then she does everything that a damsel in distress doesn't do which is liberate herself and save the man and saves the man who traditionally would save her and then bails on him romantically as well. Like, it's just so hard. Like, it's very hard for me to apply the, like, Miss Piggy is an unhealthy romantic character. Which is, like, basically true. But because this is so meta, like, the point of this scene is that Miss Piggy is doing everything a damsel in distress doesn't do. She frees her and the man via kung fu violence

and then gets a professional opportunity and bails on him. And while Kermit is well within his rights to be hurt by that, you know, even though you're right, he doesn't know how to emotionally communicate because they're just both so emotionally fucking stunted but i just i love that scene miss picky does everything wrong and it makes you love her more and it like i feel like by her being such a compelling and fun character to watch and watching her do everything quote-unquote wrong or just like not what you expect someone in that situation to do it almost makes

it easier you know like when i was a kid watching this to call into question like well why does the opposite usually happen if i love it so much when it doesn't happen like it's a cool sort of entry point to analyze some of the common movie tropes that you've seen a million times in a lot of kids' movies up until that point. Like Miss Piggy, she is cooking. She's doing something. True. You know who isn't doing something? Camilla.

Fozzie. Oh, well, that too. Camilla. Yes, Camilla should be doing more. Yes. Do you have anything else to say about miss piggy before we move on i mean i think that another thing that has come up with miss piggy over the years not necessarily within the scope of this movie is just like her i think rightfully earned

place in feminist canon and just like the idea of an imperfect woman being this icon and a very ambitious woman being an icon and also she's kind of delulu and like you know i think every muppets raw talent besides kermit can kind of be called into question and i kind of love that too we're like yeah that's who succeeds in Hollywood is like one person who's actually good every once in a while and then like 40 people who basically suck especially Fozzie Bear I would even question Kermit's talent there I said it I just feel like Rainbow Connection he did that off the top of the dome. Come on. But was his voice good? Wow.

Jim Henson spinning in his grave. Well, sorry. These are just my thoughts and feelings. You said it. You said what you said. I think the only other thing I bring up with Miss Piggy canonically is the way that her and Kermit's physical size is used as comedy is something that I think has been discussed quite a lot I don't really feel qualified to because I just haven't done enough research on

it to intelligently comment on but I know that in the show leading up to this movie not as much actually in this movie but I think that they're like difference like miss piggy is just physically bigger than kermit because she is a pig and he is a frog right it's just true but that at different points in their relationship that the difference in their size has been called attention to in a way that has not always been sensitive but i think that there's also been a lot of thoughtful reclaimings of their dynamic just all that to say like we're just talking about Miss Piggy and Curbit in the scope of this movie there's a lot of conversation that has gone on about their relationship um outside of that I just wanted to acknowledge that I don't feel able to intelligently comment on it at this time

sure and now we've entered the Camilla zone let's talk about it let's talk about Camilla because she is like I feel like a very underrated under-discussed Muppet character because she's been around since 1978. Wow. Yeah. And this is honestly the first time I've noticed her in any Muppet thing. Ain't it a shame? It's a shame. So she's Gonzo's wife. She is.

His chicken wife or girlfriend or partner of some kind. They're committed. It seems like they're committed. Yeah. And they seem like they're monogamous too. Yeah, I would guess so. But wouldn't it be funny if they had an open marriage? Good for Camilla.

And were practicing ethical non-monogamy. Anyway, so she does not speak English. She clucks and it seems as though only Gonzo understands her, or at least he's the only one to talk to her, which means that it's really hard for us to know anything about her as a character. We don't see her interacting with anyone else. Everyone else ignores her. No one acknowledges her as a character. And no one seems to care about her or what she wants. And therefore, the audience has a hard time knowing and caring about her. And I think that's a damn shame because she's one of the few characters who's not like male coded like the all the other muppets are i agree with you i think

that camilla is extremely disrespected and if there is any five years ago over the top unnecessary origin mini series about a muppet's character i would like to see camilla because i just can't unlike miss piggy who i could watch for a million years, but I don't think that her character has been like under thought or under discussed as the years have gone on. Camilla, I just don't think has been thought about at once because yeah, as I was watching this, I was like, well, has Camilla ever been given more consideration

than this movie? And the answer appears to be a hard no, ever been given more consideration than this movie? And the answer appears to be a hard no, where Camilla was introduced in the late 70s on The Muppet Show, always in conversation with Gonzo, which is not the case for Miss Piggy. Miss Piggy was originally a utility player on The Muppet Show,

who was later brought into Kermit's orbit. But she was originally sort of her own thing but she was introduced in episode 305 of the muppet show most prominently in episode 309 and i'm pulling from the muppet wiki here okay scholarly journal muppet wiki when gonzo attempted to audition her and another chicken named nelly for liberace's concert so just to remind you what year we're in here so camilla was sort of the standout chicken from a group of chickens much like miss piggy was a standout from a group of pigs and again it's like is this how women prominent? By standing out from a pack of other women? It's just interesting.

Wow. But the whole joke with Camilla for the last almost now 50 years is that Gonzo will frequently attempt to step out on Camilla because he cannot tell the difference between Camilla and other chickens, which is just a broad way of saying all women are the same to our guy gonzo so he's polyamorous by accident smooching on all these other i think that's an interesting way of saying cheating i think that's a way of saying he's cheating on her i would love i dare a man to say actually it turns out i'm polyamorous by accident. I'm like, bitch, you're cheating. Like, he is a cheater. Because he tells Camilla, you're my one and only. And then says, oops, turns out all women are the same to me.

So he is actually, I would chafe with that. I would say that he is a cheater who is lying about it. And that's the polyamorous community I love and respect. And the whole point of the polyamorous, I mean, listen, it's that you're not doing that. It's that you're open and honest with your intentions. Yes. Gonzo, I would say that honesty is not there. The thing is, I can separate the art from the artist with Gonzo.

Because I love Gonzo. And I think he's got riz and I think he's got Riz I think he's got incredible outfits I think he gave a career-defining performance in Muppet Christmas Carol like yes I love Gonzo but interpersonally I just think he just mistreats Camilla and then he's just like oh sorry I can't tell the difference between you and other chickens this is an ongoing joke for decades with Gonzo and Camilla including in again pulling from the Muppet wiki on Muppet babies Camilla is a rag doll that sometimes comes to life in baby gonzo's imagination so like she's just i don't know the level of thoughtlessness poor camilla i believe that camilla has thoughts feelings aspirations that we are just due to the language barrier not made privy to and we're just she's just

doomed to be gonzo's disrespected wife. I agree. And then there's Janice, who is one of the members of Electric Mayhem. We also touched briefly on her. She barely talks in the scenes that feature the band. And it's mostly Dr. Te teeth and animal yapping on she isn't given a whole lot of characterization yeah she's not super prominent which sucks because i think that she is like a very sweet and fun character i like her i wish that there was more but yeah like she is if anything number

three in the band where it's like dr teeth but i think she probably still speaks the least i would say so yeah it's a bummer it's a bummer because i like her i think she's fun. I guess that she was originally, again, pulling from scholarly journal Muppets Wiki. She was originally designed as a part of a Mick Jagger episode. Okay. So I guess that was like why the band was created to like play with him. And I don't know. I feel like there's a lot of music and specifically rock history in the fact that Janice is the only femme in this band where I feel like that has been a common trope that is based in reality of like the token woman. Yeah. In a band and janice very much falls into that trope without

really commenting on it or characterizing her outside of it so it just sort of feels like acknowledging a known trope versus trying to subvert it which again like sucks because you have it's almost like princess leia syndrome where you have one woman in this like whole canon miss piggy who is being thought about who is subverting tropes who is like acknowledging stuff but also pushing back against it and then you have characters like janice and camilla who are just falling into the trope of the wife who is constantly stepped out on but remains and the token woman in the band or whoever it is. Like it just feels like acknowledgments of tropes

as opposed to thoughtfully commenting on them. But get a group of men in the room and see if they're able to think about more than one woman character. It very rarely happens. This is so true. And that extends to the human women that we see on screen, because there are tons of celebrity cameos in this movie. There are only, I think, three of them are from women, because you've got Carol Kane, Madeleine Kahn, and Cloris Leachman, they all have tiny little cameos, they're doing quick bits. And that is

true of some of the men who are doing celebrity cameos, but others like Steve Martin and Mel Brooks, for example, have like pretty extended, longish scenes where they're on screen quite a bit versus all of the women are barely there. I think Cloris Leachman has the most screen time slash like plot relevancy because there's a whole thing where she's allergic to animal hair and she's the assistant to the producer who they're trying to like see to get the audition and they throw all of their animal hair in her face so that she sneezes and they can sneak into the office so all this to say the women aside from miss piggy are not thought out well at all slash are barely

there which is a shame and i also i mean just like hearkening back to the Be Kind Rewind essay I think something that she very intelligently comments on is like even though the writing and top level decisions with Miss Piggy's character come from men a lot of what makes her iconic were designed by women who designed her costumes and like designed the aesthetic that surrounds her where she is not completely beholden to men but those are the people that sort of ultimately hold the reins on what the character says and performs and i don't know i mean i think there's a lot of ways to look at that and i don't want to be too binary and like who gets to determine who this character is but when you have a room full of cis men who mostly identify as straight making these decisions you can feel it and it does feel

kind of like a miracle that you even get miss piggy out of a room of creatives like this and so i'm grateful for that and i also i think that the way that women are portrayed or just like glaringly not portrayed in The Muppets, like definitely leave something to be desired. steadily introduced more femme presenting characters into its like core group over the years to sort of rectify the original cast of majority male characters that were introduced to Sesame Street in the 1960s. So you are originally presented over half a century ago with mostly male identifying Muppets. But this is a show that's been on for half a century. And so they've brought in characters that are more representative of the actual world. And the Muppets, because I feel like of how stop and go they have been in terms of cultural relevance, that has never really happened happened they haven't been updated in the way that a weekly show that's been on for half a century would have to be updated

right and that sucks and i think while that is a frustration and while i hope and i think that like the jason siegel thing was kind of a failed attempt to do this because like what did jason siegel do in that original movie he put out besides presenting himself a cis male and this other character, Walter, a cis male Muppet? Like you just did more of the same. So there wasn't any meaningful shift. I think if the Muppets do get a huge relaunch, I hope it would be with a more diverse behind the scenes crew and just a more diverse presentation of who the Muppets are and that as long as the characters are strong it will work like right that's really all it takes if that does happen down the line I hope that there would be meaningful effort behind

that but in the meantime I mean I think a nice thing I want to say is that as dominated by male presenting characters as this world is they are more emotionally intelligent than most male characters of this era are or at least more able to present emotion and feelings i would agree with that It's almost as if characters who are not like visibly human, it allows them to kind of be more emotionally intelligent and expressive. Sure. Because the pressure of like cis men to have a certain level or perceived masculinity kind of goes out the window when it's puppets made of felt you know so i feel like that probably has something to do with it yes a very a very male coping mechanism of like,

can I express this if it's through my puppet? And you're like, yeah, if that helps, I guess. But I do appreciate that, like, I mean, and again, particularly with Kermit, that he is an imperfect character. He has a lot of self-doubt. He has a lot of uncertainty about himself and the direction his life is going that is presented you know like pretty vulnerably and pretty thoughtfully and

that's a very consistent element of that character where he is ambitious and he is invested in the characters that surround him but he also has sort of this like Achilles heel of doubt in himself. But it's almost that same doubt and questioning that often leads to a breakthrough that allows him to feel more confident. And usually that confidence is rooted in the community he's built around him. And I think that's beautiful. And, you know, in a world that is in almost any era, like dominated by these very stereotypical male characters who are, you know,

bootstrapping their way to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like just this internal confidence or sense of ability that allows them to succeed with Kermit, usually what allows him to succeed as his willingness to be self-reflective and this kind of softness to this character that doesn't just make him able to be more personally satisfied but also in terms of like his relationship with miss piggy it's his vulnerability and his softness that makes him appealing romantically which is something that we're also not frequently presented with with a male romantic hero so i think you know he and miss piggy are both very flawed characters but I don't view that as a negative. I think that that is just like part of why they are so enduring. It's part of the human experience slash the frog and pig experience.

Yeah. Yeah. I like that scene where he is talking to himself, like by the campfire in the desert. It's a very golem and S smiegel scene to me but like the cutest version of it yeah yeah it's awesome yeah i love kermit i just i love them all except fozzie bear he can suck it he can i wish him the worst just to speak a little bit more to the kind of failure to evolve in the Muppets the way that like Sesame Street has been able to become more inclusive. I think it's worth noting that this is an extremely white movie slash white cast. All of the Muppets are Muppeteered and voiced by white men and all of the cameos, except for Richard Pryor and maybe one or two other exceptions. But otherwise, it's overwhelmingly white actors who are seen like as human beings in the movie. So yeah, just overwhelmingly white cast

that I don't think improves very much as the Muppets go on, maybe with the exception of Muppet Wizard of Oz with Ashanti and Queen Latifah. Well, and neither of us have watched last year's completely uh I think watched by no people Muppet Haunted Mansion I started it I was curious and it was really bad and then I shut it off I can't I do think it would be really interesting to sort of analyze side by side because I'm not in authority on either of these, but like to see how and why Sesame Street

has kept with the times so intelligently where the Muppets, you know, they came from the same mind, but it just feels like there has been a different amount of care and creative control applied to the differing things because, yeah, I mean, from what I get to, I mean, from just Sesame Street

has always been a very diverse world from day one that has improved over time where it was like supposed to accurately reflect the demographics of New York City at the time that it started. And so it was not an entirely white world and it was a poor neighborhood that Sesame Street is set in.

And I just never, I think it's like maybe because the Muppets have such highbrow aspirations in a way that Sesame Street doesn't because they're all supposed to be four or something. I don't know. It is interesting to see how the same creative team can spawn such different legacies in terms of representation. I do like when they drive past Big Bird and they're like, do you want to come with us to Hollywood?

And he's like, no, I'm going to New York City. Ever heard of it? And they're like, good luck. One of the movies I considered pitching for my birthday that I was like I can't do this to Caitlin but I watched it with my niece recently it's so fun is The Adventures of Elmo in Grouchland no I would have enjoyed that I think it's so good it's really good we should cover it another time I also don't know how much there would be to talk about because it is a movie for four-year-olds.

But like, yeah, I watched it with my niece. I remember my little brother went to see it in theaters. It was a big deal. But it's basically just exactly what it sounds like. Elmo goes to Grouchland where Oscar the Grouch is from. It's so iconic. The villain is Mandy Patinkin and the fairy godmother type character is Vanessa Williams. Oscar the Grouch is from. It's so iconic. The villain is Mandy Patinkin. And the fairy godmother type character is Vanessa Williams.

And it's just unreal. It's a very special film. Okay. And I think it's one of the only... I haven't actually seen this movie because it came out a fair amount of time before I was born. So have you seen Sesame Street Follow That Bird? No. It's a movie that came out in 1985. So it predates both of us.

It's Big Bird's movie. Okay. It is showing at the New Beverly in a couple weeks. And I am going to go. Should we go? Should we go? Like Sesame Street movies have historically never worked out. Elmo in Grouchland flopped at the box office.

Damn. But it is an incredible movie. And I would recommend it. Okay. Is it a Bechdel cast movie? I don't know. I don't know. Give us a couple of years.

Anything could be a Bechdel cast movie. It's true. It's true. A movie is a Bechdel cast movie. Yeah. I don't know. Do you have anything else to say about the Muppet movie? I don't think I do. Do you? I don't think so either. I think, you know, ultimately, I, you know, on a personal level, I just think that this movie, and this world, while flawed, is really special to me. And I think I probably will in my COVID fugue state after this, go and watch the Defunctland Jim Henson series. Because for any of his flaws and personal biases, I just like I find his creative legacy and his creative trajectory so inspiring and so cool and I just really love

his and Frank Oz's collaborations I think they're so special and so boundary pushing and all of the risks that he took in times that he was willing to say like, fuck you guys, I'll take a pay cut to like try this. And sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't, but it was always interesting. And it was always, I don't know, I just like I've been thinking about a lot of artists who took those kinds of risks recently. And, and he did it in a way that made it so I mean, I know that Kermit is very much a Jim Henson self insert character. But, you know, the whole idea of that, yes, he did want success and he did want fame. But he also only wanted that to the extent that it would make others happy. Yeah, that is kind of a overly simplistic way to present any of that but i just think at its core

it's really cool and feels like what jim henson was at his core for any of his flaws really trying to do and i just love i love muppet world it's the best that's all i have to say. Beautiful. The movie does not, unfortunately, pass the Bechdel test. No, it does not. It certainly does not. No. And that's an L. That's a big L. A hard no.

But what about our nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale of 0 to 5 nipples? Examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. You know what? As much as I enjoy the Muppets, I don't think this movie does very well on the nipple scale. I would give it, I guess

a split down the middle. Let's do the Bechtelcast cheat code and do 2.5 because there are subversions like when miss piggy saves herself and saves kermit and isn't a damsel in distress which is what that scene is deliberately being set up to be and then also deliberately subverts that expectation and so i appreciated moments like that but those are few and far between. And it's mostly just female characters being ignored or not really having much bearing on the story. And it's very much a focus on

the male Muppets and what their desires are and what their journey is. And Miss Piggy is the most significant character, you know, who presents as a woman, but, you know, she has a thing or two, like the other Muppets, to learn about healthy boundaries and clear communication. So it's nice that she's flawed, but I don't know, she is, like, abusive to Kermit a lot of the time and that's not good all this to say i'll give it two and a half nipples i'll give one to miss piggy because of her just like place in the zeitgeist i'll give one to Camilla because she deserves a lot more than she was given. And I'll give my half nipple to Janice, who also deserves more. Yeah.

I will split down the middle as well. I think that there is so much to love from a starting point of subversion. Most of this goes to Miss Piggy. And I think what this movie fails to do and what the franchise fails to do, I would say the Muppet show, while that's a whole other situation, was at least more inclusive

and included a more diverse group of guest hosts in their shows. There's so many incredible, iconic episodes with people of color, with queer people that were brought onto the show. You don't really see that reflected in their first movie or subsequent movie outputs, really. And that's disappointing because it wasn't like they lacked in, you know, celebrity interest that were not cis white people. Right. I think Miss Piggy on her own, like really is a game changer, which sounds so silly, but I do think it's true. But with the other women that populate this world, there's not only not enough women and femme characters, but outside of Miss Piggy, there's kind of little to be desired in

terms of character development, or further discussion, even though I think that the interesting elements of those characters are there, which we're so often frustrated by. And that connects to who is behind the camera. You know, not to say that there is not some gender diversity behind the camera, but certainly not in leadership roles or in performers. And that obviously makes a huge difference. That said, I think that the Muppets have inspired so many incredible, creative, subsequent endeavors that have been more inclusive and have been more thoughtful. I just cannot think of anything like them. They're just so singular

and so special. And I think for all of their faults, very pure of heart and existing to bring people joy. And I love them so much. And I love this movie so much. So I'm going to go two and a half nipples in the Bechdel cast nipple scale. But five trillion nipples on the Jamie. I love it. Injected into my veins raw scale. And I will give my nipples to Miss Piggy Janice and

I'll give the half to Camilla but I do think that she deserved of anyone in this universe she deserves the vanity limited series treatment yeah give her a chicken run movie. Run away from Gonzo. You know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And with that in mind, if you are interested in the Bechdel cast talking about chickens, we are going to be at the American Cinematheque Friends of the Fest Festival at the Los Feliz 3 on August 25th at 4 p.m. Hosting a screening of Chicken chicken run ever heard of it and you can get the tickets to that in the link in our bio certainly happy birthday jamie oh thanks

i don't care this year i think we should go to knott's berry farm yeah that much i know i love that i need to see Snoopy. I just have this like need to be close to Snoopy at this time. I love that. I need to ride a roller coaster. So.

Okay. It all works out. Two in one. Two in one baby. You can subscribe to our Matreon at patreon.com slash Bechtelcast

where we put out two bonus episodes every month, plus you get access to our back catalog of over 150 bonus episodes, and that is all $5 a month. Yeah. And you can also go to our merch store, tpublic.com slash the Bechtylcast for all of your merchandising needs. In the meantime, keep it Miss Piggy.

Karate chop your romantic interests. And we will – look, no, I'm standing by it. I'm standing by it. Send me to jail. I don't give a shit. It's my birthday. True. And we'll see you next week.

Mm-hmm. Waka waka. Comes full circle. Bye. Bye. The Bechdelcast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by Caitlin Durante and Jamie Loftus, produced by Sophie Lichterman,

edited by Mo Laborde. Our theme song was composed by Mike Kaplan, with vocals by Katherine Voskrosensky. Our logo and merch is designed by Jamie Loftus. And a special thanks to Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit linktree.com. Bechtelcast. Hey, everyone. It's Katie Couric. Well, the election is in the homestretch,

right in time for a new season of my podcast, Next Question, starting October 3rd. I'm bringing in some FOKs, friends of Katie's, to help me out, like Ezra Klein, Jen Psaki, Astead Herndon, Karl Rove, and David Axelrod. But we're also going to have some fun, thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee and Charlemagne the God.'re also going to have some fun, thanks to some of my friends like Samantha Bee and Charlemagne the God. We're going to take some viewer questions as well. I mean, isn't that what democracy is all about? Check out our new season of Next Question with me, Katie Couric,

starting October 3rd on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Daphne Caruana Galizia was a Maltese investigative journalist who on October 16th, 2017, was assassinated. Crooks Everywhere unnerves the plot to murder a one-woman WikiLeaks. She exposed the culture of crime and corruption that were turning her beloved country into a mafia state. Listen to Crooks Everywhere on the iHeartRadio app,

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on Apple Podcasts. Back in 1969, four young musicians from Texas were hired to impersonate the British psychedelic rock band, The Zombies. It was one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history. And now, the entire story has been uncovered in a new podcast. All episodes are available now. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Open your free iHeart app and search true story of the fake zombies and start listening. In California during the summer of 1975, within the span of 17 days and less than 90 miles, two women did something no other woman had done before, try to assassinate the president of the United States.

One was the protege of Charles Manson. 26-year-old Lynette Fromm, nicknamed Squeaky. The other, a middle-aged housewife working undercover for the FBI. Identified by police as Sarah Jean Moore. The story of one strange

and violent summer, this season on the new podcast, Rip Current. Hear episodes of Rip Current early and completely ad-free and receive exclusive bonus content by subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts. I'm Jacob Goldstein. I used to host Planet Money. Now I'm starting a new show.

It's called What's Your Problem? Every week on What's Your Problem, entrepreneurs and engineers describe the future they're going to build once they solve a few problems. I'm talking to people trying to figure out how to do things that no one on the planet knows how to do, from creating a drone delivery business to building a car that can truly drive itself.

Listen to What's Your Problem on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.