The Best of Car Talk - #2470: The God of Thermostats

Episode Date: August 31, 2024

Max needs help keeping his junker going in Hawaii. John has to tell his Honda mechanic in the most tactful way possible that he's incompetent and Jill and her Ford have to rely on the oracles 'Clickus' and 'Clackus' to appeal to the God of thermostats on this episode of the Best of Car Talk.Get access to hundreds of episodes in the Car Talk archive when you sign up for Car Talk+ at plus.npr.org/cartalkLearn more about sponsor message choices: podcastchoices.com/adchoicesNPR Privacy Policy

Here at Shortwave Space Camp, we escape our everyday lives to explore the mysteries and quirks of the universe. We find weird, fun, interesting stories that explain how the cosmos is parting all around us. From stars to dwarf planets to black holes and beyond, we've got you. Listen now to the Shortwave Podcast from NPR. Hello and welcome to Car Talk from National Public Radio with us clicking clack the tappet brothers and we're broadcasting this week from the Laboratories of Murky Research here at Car Talk Plaza. Yes, because we have, as some people may know.

Some murky research. As some people may know, on our website, CarTalk.com, we had a survey and we have some of the results. And not out of 10 users said they hated it. No, I mean we got some interesting stuff. I mean we got the, I just wanted to mention that this stuff is up on the website right now. Get out. Surprised me too. Here's some interesting things.

Percentage who have children by make of car. Do you know that owners or drivers of Plymouths are more likely to have kids than any other vehicle? Well, sure, I'm not surprised by that statistic whatsoever. Well, you'll be surprised later. Wow, I mean, you can actually... Well, Plymouth has always been considered the cheaper of the Chrysler cars. So people who are concerned with value would buy a Plymouth in the Chrysler.

If that's the case, you might have an interesting theory having to do with this. I always have a theory. We have a chart that says the percentage who follow the maintenance procedures religiously. And we have this by make of car. The people who own sobs take care of their cars better than anybody else. And here's an interesting thing. Dodge and Plymouth, which are exactly the same car, but people who follow the maintenance procedures religiously, for Dodge cars, it's something like 50%. For Plymouth vehicles, it's like 30%.

Too busy with the kids. Too busy with the kids. Too busy with the kids. Not enough time to service the car. But shoo. Now get this, the big question of the whole question there was if you had it to do all over again, would you buy? Would you get married? Would you buy the same car again?

Loyalty. Loyalty, yeah. So give me multiple choice. Toyota. Ooh, that's a possibility. BMW. And Pontiac. I'll give you those three. Pontiac, no.

It's a toss up between Toyota and BMW, but I would have to say the BMW drivers are fanatics. And you are right. The BMW led the pack. Toyota, in fact, was way down. And you are right. The BMW led the pack. Toyota, in fact, was way down. Their cars are boring. They don't break down enough. They don't break down enough. Here's another biggie.

Considering just your experience with the dealership, would you buy the car again? Who leads the pack there? Just considering not the car or the the price, or how it runs. Do I get multiple choices? Just the dealership. Really? Just the dealership, huh? Yeah. Who's first and who's last?

Multiple choice. You mean? Alright, I'll give you a multiple choice. Volvo, Subaru, Mazda. Well, we know Mazda's last from your experiences with Mazda. Well we know Mazda's last from your experiences with Mazda. Subaru would be first. No Subaru is right about in the middle of the top 20 and I didn't give you the first one because I lied. Is it the head of Volvo? Well then it's first. It's ahead of Volvo. Well, then it's first. Volvo's way up there. But actually, I had already given you three, but I forgot that I didn't give you Saturn.

Saturn was way out in front. People love Saturn dealerships. And who do they hate? You're absolutely right. Mazda dealerships. Everybody hates Mazda. Woohoo! And that's it.

You can see these charts. You can see what's happening with your car take a look at car talk calm You click on something. I don't virtually use It's probably in the this week's What's new and by the way, we have a brand new survey. We're launching this Oh, yeah, whether you participated in the previous survey or not You should go to car talk calm and take the new survey And in a few months, we'll have even more interesting information. This is really wild stuff.

Wild. I love it. If you have a question about your car, you can call us at 1-800-332-9287. Hello, you're on Car Talk. Hi, Tom and Ray. Yes, yes. Hi, it's Max calling from Honolulu. How are you?

Max from Honolulu. Max are you? Max from Honolulu! Max, Honolulu? Wowzee. Actually, I moved from our fair city not too long ago. But yes, I'm, this present moment, I'm school in Honolulu. Oh, you're at school! That's correct, yes. I'm wearing my University of Honolulu hat today, as a matter of fact.

No, that's not possible. Yes, it is. Really? The University of Honolulu hat today, as a matter of fact. No, that's not possible. Yes it is. Really? The University of Honolulu rainbows. Wow! Hey, you thought I was joking here, huh? How do you know about UH? What are you talking about?

Right, I was trying to get a faculty appointment for the last 25 years. I've been sending them my resume every six months! Right, the only ones that have responded, he's gotten three offers to be towel boy at the Royal Hawaiian. That's right. And he's about to accept one. And apparently he got a hat too. Yeah, they got a hat.

So what's going on, Max? Well, the deal is here, after I moved here, I found I needed a car. Where'd you move from, by the way? Well, I spent a year living in Cambridge, then was living with my parents in Gloucester for a while, then I moved here I found I needed a car. Where'd you move from by the way? Well I spent a year living in Cambridge then was living with my parents in Gloucester for a while then I moved here. Oh but you're coming back? Well no well perhaps when I get my degree I will come back. It might take you 18-20 years to get that degree huh? I'm in a PhD program in clinical psychology. 18 to 20, yeah. 18, yeah, 18 to 20 minimum. Clinical psych?

Yeah. PhD. Alright, so 20 years from now you're coming back, but in the meantime? Well, in the meantime, I bought this car that has got this problem with a rough idol that is driving me and my girlfriend crazy. And the mechanics here... Wait a minute. Ooh.

You already have a girlfriend? How long you been down there? Well, she moved here with me. Oh you brought the girlfriend with you? I did, yes. Good thinking there. Excellent. I'm sorry to interrupt. Oh no. Sorry. It's the eleventh time. Okay what kind of a car is this? It's an 89 Nissan 240SX. Good. Okay. As soon as we bought it, which I should have done this before we bought it, but after we bought it, I bought it to the mechanic who said it needed things such as a clutch, which

we promptly put in, that the timing chain was getting noisy. He said, do you hear that clattering sound when it starts up? And I said, yes. And he said, well, that's the timing chain. And then he said, well, and he's got this mysterious rough idle, he said. So we brought it into a Nissan dealer, um, because the other mechanic had said, well, maybe it's fuel injection.

And the Nissan dealer had it for a day and a half and ran through every conceivable system and said that they could find nothing wrong with it. So now this, let me, let me just ask one question. This rough idle, idle, if you were to open the hood and look at the engine, can you actually see the engine shaking or is it something that you just feel like a vibration when you sit in the car? Oh, you see it. Yes, it's smooth and then it's pooo, pooo. Oh really? So it isn't a regular risk? It's intermittent.

No, it goes away. It's funny because that's the issue when when the AC kicks in You know when the idle speed kicks up. Yeah, then it smooths out, but when that idle speed kicks down Then it goes then it gets rough. But also when you're driving, you know when you're when you're accelerating and the engine is working It doesn't seem to do this so it's primarily a problem in idle it's it's Ameliorated by having the the air conditioner on which boosts the idle That's right, and it's worse when it's warm and been idling for a long time. Yeah, I mean I would imagine You would you would imagine that they would start from the basics wouldn't you that they would have done the obvious stuff like a compression Test somebody must have done. I think the first guy did.

Malcolm said he ran it through the scope. Yes, well. No, he ran it through the scope, and he did a cylinder balance test and all that. But sometimes the easiest things are overlooked. For example, I wouldn't surprise me at all if the previous owner had adjusted the valves before he sold it to try to get rid of some of the noise that turned out to be the

loose timing chain. Actually, it was the dealer who sold it. Ah, OK. of some of the noise that turned out to be the loose timing chain. Actually, it was the dealer who sold it. Ah, okay. Even more than, or more likely. So it's possible that somebody has over adjusted or over tightened one of the valves. And that could make it run rough at idle. It wouldn't necessarily diminish the power significantly.

That's a possibility. That's a possible. On the other hand, you could have a bad injector. You could also have a vacuum leak. So these are three possible nearly you could have a bad inject you could also vacuum lease of these are three things that you should have looked at having checked for a vacuum leak which they may have done already but haven't check again okay uh... what they could do if if they suspect a bad injector is they could

replace they could replace all the injectors and see if that fixes it all put one known good one each of the cylinders one at a time okay which isn't that hard to do. But before you do any of that stuff, I would certainly do a compression test, but whether that's good or not, I would go and run through the valves and make sure they're not too tight. I see. Okay.

Check out that stuff. I will, I will. Thank you for your help. Don't be surprised if you don't figure it out. Okay. But at least the weather's nice. It is, it is. No matter what happens to your car, the weather is nice. It is, it is. No matter what happens to your car, the weather is nice.

It is nice. Right, and no matter how bad the compression is, it will always start in Hawaii. See, if you lived in Minnesota, you would have figured it out by now because it wouldn't have started in the winter. That's right, that's right. Good luck. Thank you very much. See you, Max.

Good luck, Max. Bye-bye. Is he busting a whole lot? Oh yeah, he's knocking himself out, I can tell. Probably takes a class a he's knocking himself out. I can probably take the class a day stressed out We'll be right back with the answer to the puzzler after these messages Support for this podcast and the following message come from wise the app that makes managing your money in different currencies easy with wise You can send and spend money internationally at the mid-market exchange rate.

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then it's time to sign up for perks across more than 20 podcasts with the NPR Plus bundle. Learn more at plus.npr.org. Wayland, how much do you think it would cost to buy one of those big digital billboards in Times Square to promote our show, the indicator from Planet Money and big lights. In this economy?

I mean, you're probably right. But this question is the exact kind of thing that we find answers to on our show. We take one big economic idea, make it understandable, and, you know, even fun. That's the indicator from Planet Money and NPR. The Constitution, our founding document, says a lot about how our country has evolved

and who we want to be. But it's not set in stone. So for the next month, we'll be digging into the history behind some of its most pivotal amendments. Listen to We the People on the Thru Line podcast from NPR. Hey, it's time for the puzzler. What are the odds? I mean, come on, I did pretty well

in all that statistical data that you have here. Yeah, you did, you did magnificently. Why can't I remember a puzzler from one week to the next? Well, I just wanna know what are the odds that you're gonna remember it. They're very low. I don't have any feel for it. Well, I thought you'd remember this because it's about you.

That didn't help. Back in the old days when my brother used to work, his wife drove him to the train station. Oh, that was a good puzzler. Then he'd take the train to work and then two hours later after lunch, he'd get on the train and come home. And his wife would meet him at the train station and they'd what? Go home. Well, one day, he decides to leave work extra early.

In fact, he didn't even bother to go to his office. No lunch. Skip lunch. You're on a diet. Skip lunch, get right back on the train. He decides to leave at noon instead of 1, and needless to say, he gets to the train station an hour early. Right? You leave an hour early, you take an earlier train to get there an hour early. Well,

rather than call his wife, it's a nice day and he decides to hoof it. Yeah. So he starts walking home along the route that she takes to pick him up. Yeah. I actually did not spend time working on this. I'm gonna do it right now. And lo and behold, he sees his wife coming up the road and she sees him. He gets in the car and they drive home and they arrive 20 minutes earlier than usual. Don't forget, she left home at her usual time because she was unencumbered by the thought process. She didn't know that you had left work early. In fact, she wasn't even sure

that you had gone to work at all. So you got this, they get home 20 minutes earlier than they would normally have gotten home and the question is How long was he walking before they met now notice? There's there's no mention of how long she was driving how fast he walked with Trainee took how fast the train went what the distances were any of that stuff interesting question. What was the question? How far what? What was the question how long was he walking question? How long was he walking?

Oh, how long was he walking? They got home 20 minutes early. I got it. I got it. He was walking for 40 minutes. So close. 45? Closer! 46.

50. 50. No kidding. How did you figure it out? Well, if they arrived home 20 minutes earlier than usual, he saved by walking, he saved 10 minutes off her travel time to the station and 10 minutes of her travel time away from the station. Yeah. Right. So therefore he was walking for 50 minutes when she picked him up. Don't forget, you got to put all the pieces together. The hour. Where's the hour come from? The hour, he left walking for 50 minutes when she picked him up. Don't forget, you've got to put all the pieces together. The hour.

Where's the hour come from? The hour, he left an hour early. Oh, he left an hour early. Right, but she leaves it the regular time, but she saves 20 minutes off the total trip, which is 10 minutes. In other words, his 50 minutes of walking allows her to save 10 minutes off her ride to the station. Because it's as if he moved the station 10 minutes closer.

Yeah, well how'd you get 50 minutes out of that? 10 minutes and 10 and 20. Oh 10 and 50 is an hour! There you go! And 10 and 10 is what? 20! There you go! Gee, that's good, you know?

Do we have a winner? Yes, we have a winner. The winner is Florence Feldman Wood from Hay, from our first state and over Massachusetts, and for having your correct answer chosen at random as I would have this week. Florence will get, you Florence will get a copy of this year's comedy album of the year. You might ask according to whom is it this year's comedy album of the year? Well, the American Political Prisoners Association is the other ones who voted us that you're gonna get a brand new second best of car talk and we're getting these for everybody for Christmas this year you

know why because I get them for 63 cents apiece from Dougie also anyway we wish you wish we have a new puzzler coming up during the second half of car talk so stay tuned! In the meantime, you can call us at 1-800-332-9287. Hello, you're on Car Talk. Hi, my name is Jill, and I'm calling from Port Byron, Illinois. Hi, Jill. Port Byron.

We don't even want to know where Port Byron is because I'm going to forget it, but we'll remember you, Jill. Okay, great. So what's on your mind? I repeatedly have to replace the thermostat in my Ford probe Which is a 1991 which I bought new and the past four years every fall. I have to replace my thermostat I have no heat when I'm driving. I have plenty heat when I'm idling but none when I'm driving So I'm wondering if there's some

Cause and I just keep treating the symptoms and wondering if you can help me out with that. And replacing the thermostat always fixes this no heat problem? That's correct. At least for a year until the fall, but then following year. So the last time you had a thermostat put in was last fall? That's correct. You drove it all summer long with that thermostat in there?

That's correct. Experienced no problems? That's right. Well, I don't know because I didn't have the heat on during the summer. Well, but it didn't overheat. You had no overheating problems. Yeah, that's right. I did not have any overheating problems. And then the cold weather comes, you get no heat, unless you're sitting at idle. That's correct. But when I'm driving, as soon as I start driving, the thermostat gauge inside my car drops to nothing.

It's not in the normal range, just blanks out completely. And then you go into your local filling station, and Mort throws in a new thermostat. You know Mort? Oh yeah. Port Byron Exxon. And he throws in a new thermostat. Hold more oh yeah port byron exxon and he throws in a new thermostat order one and you paid you drive out of the heat is magnificent

well you know i don't have a wide range of heat i'd just have hot or cool well i have to say jill that this whole story smacks of wackiness yeah i mean all of these things simply do not fit together. Now, as Mort confessed to doing anything else, does he have a clue? No, no, I take it to the Ford garage repeatedly

and they just say, it's a thermostat. Oh, so you go to the dealer. I go to the dealer. So that's the disadvantage of going to the dealer because you get a fresh face every time. Yeah. They just hand the work order to some guy and they say hey this woman is no heat fixer car and he's not looking for the answer. He doesn't have any history. He doesn't have a history. He doesn't have a sense of

history. He's probably 19 years old just out of technical school and all he knows is to go by the book. I mean this is so crazy that the only solution that the only thing I can come up with that fits all the facts that you gave us is that sometime in September, somebody from the dealership sneaks into your driveway and puts in the thermostat that was there last year when you came in. That's the only theory that fits all the facts. Okay. But when they take the thermostat out, have they ever... This is impossible. Come on, it's impossible. If you ask to see any of the old thermostats, are they in fact stuck open? Are they corroded? They're stuck in some open position, which means

nothing to me, but they're stuck open. They're stuck open. Sheet that I can only assume that there's some contaminant that's causing this to happen, but there's no logical reason. Yeah. I don't know what quite honestly causes thermostats to fail.

I don't think anyone does except overwork. The god of thermostats. Well, I mean, I mean- Colonias I think it was. Yes. Well the only thing I can think of is I bought the car in the south. Thermipoli I think. You saw that, sorry? We weren't listening. We should listen, we know that. It would help if we listened. Well you can tell that you've lost us. I mean we know we haven't got a snowball chance of giving you the answer

So we've given up Jill. We're talking about Greek gods I bought the car in the south and all I think you can think of now is now that I've moved north It has failed. So maybe it has a regional Problem. Yeah. Thanks for calling No, no, wait a minute Have you ever drained out the whole cooling system and replaced the coolant? Yes. And flushed it out? Yes. I haven't. I've had some. I mean, we've had cars in our shop that have had the same thermostat in there for 20 years. Wow. I mean, thermostats just don't fail. It's a pretty simple design. And unless,

ah, unless it's, I've got to believe there's some contaminant in your cooling system. Either there's the wrong coolant is in there or something. Well, maybe something is falling apart like the seal on the water pump and the little pieces of it are going through the cooling system and... Yeah, I think you're about to enter Bogersville again. The only trouble with all this is it would never make the thing fail open. I mean, the only thing that would make it fail open is like a stick. Popsicle sticks. Popsicle sticks.

I don't know, but I would suggest that the next time it happens that you don't go to the Ford dealer, that in fact you get a thermostat from a local garage and tell them what has gone on and ask them to flush out the whole system to make sure there's nothing that could be causing this. Because I haven't any explanation whatsoever. And I have no idea either. But if they're really stuck open, do you have one of these? Stuck open? Oh, I just threw it away actually. Well, get it it run down to the trash and get it and send it to us

okay I want to see a lab I mean we could we can we can analyze anything okay right we don't come up with any answer but we analyze yeah okay good luck Joe we didn't help at all but it was great talking to you wow the boy Wow. I know who it is, the god of thermostats. Celsius. Celsius, there you go. Don't move because more calls and the new puzzler are coming right up. I just don't want to leave a mess. On Bullseye, the great Dan Aykroyd talks about the Blues Brothers, Ghostbusters, and his

very detailed plans about how he will spend his afterlife. I think I'm going to roam in a few places, yes. I'm going to manifest and roam. All that and more on the Bullseye Podcast from MaximumFun.org and NPR. Wilderness is changing. More wildfires, more people, more cell service. Nicole S from KALW, part of the NPR network. Listening to the news can feel like a journey, but the 1A podcast guides you beyond the headlines and cuts through the noise. Listen to 1A, where we celebrate your freedom to listen by getting to the heart of the story together, only from NPR.

You care about what's happening in the world. Let State of the World from NPR keep you informed. Each day we transport you to a different point on the globe and introduce you to the people living world events. We don't just tell you world news, we take you there. And you can make this journey while you're doing the dishes or driving your car. State of the World podcast from NPR, vital international stories every day. Hi, we're back. You're listening to Car Talk on National Public Radio with us, Click and Clack the Tappet Brothers, and we're here to discuss cars, car repair, and the three-year lifetime warranty revisited. I mean, I would have thought that we would get a...

Well, I'll just read this. But... You don't want to give any background? Well, I mean, we had a letter a couple of weeks ago that we read in which someone asked us, they said, look, I went to this place called, what's the name of this dump? Discount Tire Company in some place. Unimportant. And the salesman said that the tire that she was planning to buy had a lifetime three-year warranty.

And she said, excuse me, what did you say? And he said, a lifetime three-year warranty. And she said, what the heck is a lifetime three-year warranty? We have a sort of response from someone who used to work or does work, I won't mention this guy's name because he'll get fired, at Discount Tire. Sure used to work then if you... Michigan, they're in Michigan. The only reason I read his letter is because he has here a quote from the actual warranty certificate. Now here's what it says. I'm ready. For a nominal fee collected at the time of the original tire purchase. Discount tire stores or affiliated America's tire company stores promises to replace any

tire registered above absolutely free of charge." Now you notice that there is no time mentioned in that sentence so far. That's what? Lifetime. In the event of a failure due to workmanship and materials or a non-repairable road hazard, here it is, for the life of the original tread down to three thirty seconds of an inch remaining or three years from date of purchase. Okay. So there it is. I guess maybe I do understand it now that I've read it again. For the life of the original tread. Yeah. Or three years from the date of purchase. Here you go. So I think it's legit.

I think it's legit too. I think it's legit, don't you? Let's take a vote. Catherine doesn't think it's legit. Karen doesn't... What do you mean? It's his lifetime, not your lifetime. You have a future as a tire salesman. Hahahaha! No, I think it's legit.

It's the life of the tire. Yeah. So for a nominal fee, when you buy the Tizu, here's my read on it. For a couple of bucks a tire, or some such amount, nominal fee, you buy this insurance. And if enough people buy it, they don't care. You buy this insurance so that if, as long as car the tire has three thirty seconds of tread in other words as long as it's a legal tire. It's still a legit tire therefore it is not dead it is a live tire so it's the lifetime of the tire. So you can't come in with a

Baldy and say I had a blowout to say well of course you had a blowout you had no tread left. Of course. But if you come in with a blowout on a viable what would have been a viable tire. Yeah. As long as three years hasn't gone by. I have to say, as strange as it sounded when I heard it, a lifetime three-year warranty, now that I read it here, it makes perfect sense. These guys are sweethearts. So I think all of America wants to apologize to Discount Tire Sleeves Ball, Discount Tire Company of America stores, I think that makes sense and I think it's a pretty good deal.

Dougie says they're on line two, can you start Monday? Okay, that's it. I'm sick of them. In their Ann Arbor store. I can be there. Okay, here's the puzzle. When I promised it would be automotive in nature, I didn't say it would be brief, but I'll try to make it as brief as possible considering how

lengthy the three year limited lifetime exclusive warranty explanation was. Yeah. A customer came in a few weeks ago. We've only had one in the last few weeks. A customer came in and complained and everyone said, you're being a customer. Complained to the following problem.

He said, when I try to climb a long rather steep hill, if you're about, about a third of the way up the hill or maybe more, the car starts to behave peculiarly as if someone has turned the key off. Just turn the key right off and then it turns it right back on. It comes back on and turns off, comes back on. And so the car lurches severely. Yeah. He said on level ground, I have no problem,

and I can drive the car perfectly OK at any speed I want whatsoever. And I was writing this down, level ground, da da da. And one of my guys is standing behind me listening. And he says, oh, one other thing. He said, if I try to climb a much steeper hill, but shorter. Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen at all.

Whoopie. Right? And my guy says, I got it. I got it. Exactly. He says, you don't have a fuel injected car, do you? And he said, no, I don't.

And I turned around and I gave him a black eye for divulging the answer because now we couldn't charge him for six hours of research. And he said no, I don't and I turned around I gave him a black eye for Devolving the answer because now we couldn't charge it for six hours of research Diagnosis six hours by knowing that this person had a carburetor was like an old Toyota or something I know when you had a carburetted car not a fuel injected one gave him the answer Yeah, if you think you know the answer, I think I do. Well, you're not allowed to participate. If you are a listener. What if I wanted to win one of these Blase CDs? If you are a listener, thinks he knows the answer, send it to us at Puzzler Tower, Car Talk Plaza, Box 3500, Harvard Square, Cambridge. Our

Fast City. Math 02238 or you can email us your answer from Car Talk dot com by clicking on the Talk to Car Talk section and if we choose your correct answer at random as the winner next week and your catch us will send you a second Best of Car Talk cassette or CD just in time for the holidays. You know, like the Ides of March, Passover, Easter, you're not in any hurry for this, right? No. Now if you'd like to call us with a question about your car or anything else, the number is 1-800-332-9287.

Hello, you're on Car Talk. Hi, this is John from Durham. question about your car or anything else. The number is 1-800-332-9287. Hello, you're on Car Talk. Hi, this is John from Durham. John, Durham. Which Durham is that? Durham, North Carolina. North Carolina. Oh yeah.

So what's up, John? Okay, recently I was hearing a loud grinding sound from my brakes. Yeah. So I brought my 88 Honda Accord into my local Honda guy and he said of course it needs some brake work which he did and so I got the car back and what was happening was when I applied the brakes and was going from decelerating from about 20 miles per hour I would hear a about about about at the back up lower it would

it would get slower so i assume that uh... they had done something wrong and it was rubbing against something if the will with spending and so some bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob i like it bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob friends in the car would say what the heck is that what the heck who's that drummer there yeah so I brought it back and they called me a couple hours later and said hey you know we we let Bubba take it for a spin and there was no noise there's nothing and I said you know that can't be did you could you

actually hear over the air in the over the telephone the parenthetical you moron? Mean that's that they always try to make you feel like you're such a Absolutely, yeah, that's exactly how I felt and and so I said look I'd like you guys to check again because I Know there was this thing if other people mentioned it did it happen to you every time you stepped on the break Yeah, I gotcha okay though so then he said okay i'll take it out for a spin and try it and any call back to you could still nothing and then i went and picked up

the car and indeed there was nothing so my question is my question is what could they have done originally that was stupid and dumb that they were embarrassed

to tell me what it was and they actually lied to me. Because I know that there was something seriously wrong. Well, this is a huge ethical question that confronts mechanics of all kinds and it has since the beginning of time. Right. Yeah. I mean, they didn't charge me to look at it the second time. Is it better to admit complete incompetence and stupidity in saying that they left a bolt

off one of the calipers, which is probably what they did? Or to make you think that you're a complete idiot. That you're in that case by imagining a noise that no one else in the universe could possibly have heard because it isn't there. Although you did have witnesses. I had witnesses. Yeah, but I bet you're not one of them would stand up in a court of law. Is this standard ethical practice among mechanics?

It is standard ethical practice among men. No, I'll tell you. To never admit that you have actually made a mistake. If they had told you that they left a bolt loose Right number one you would never go back there again Because they made a mistake on something as important as your brakes right by doing what they did They have planted a seed of doubt in your head. That's right Oh, yeah, and you would never forget first of all if they had told you they left the bolt loose

You would never have forgotten that and would have told everyone that you know not to go there. Don't ever go to this guy. They left a bolt loose on one of your calipers. My wheel could have fallen off, who knows what would have happened. Sooner or later, you will forget the entire thing. And more importantly, you won't tell anybody. Because there's nothing to tell. Is that what would cause the noise? It certainly could.

Sure. You'd feel it in a brake pedal like this? Yeah, or pads that were installed incorrectly. Or maybe they only put three pads in instead of four. Who knows? Well, they could have left the wheel nuts loose, but any number of things could cause the noise you had. Yeah. Right. Okay. I like the Latin rhythm. The ba-da-da-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba. Very good. It wasn't syncopated, but it definitely had a good beat to it. Well, don't go back there. Okay. Good luck, John. Thanks. Bye-bye. Anyway, you've wasted another perfectly good hour listening to Car Talk. Have I? Our esteemed producer is Doug the subway fugitive, not a slave to fashion, Berman. Our associate producer and Dean of the College of Autonomous Ecology is Ken Babyface Rogers.

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