The Besties - Going down Animal Well's Rabbit Hole

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

The gang has a spoiler-free discussion of one of the most intriguing games of the year, Animal Well. Will Griffin's life ever be the same? Probably not! We also dive into some of the horrendous studio closures happening this week. Get the full list of games (and other stuff) discussed at www.besties.fan. Want more episodes? Join us at patreon.com/thebesties for three bonus episodes each month! Use code BESTIES at the link below to get an exclusive 60% off an annual Incogni plan: https://incogni.com/besties

Griffin, have you considered how utterly insufferable Frustick is gonna be talking about this game? I am not sure he'll let us say the title. That is the level of spoiler fear. Like, he has been so Yoda every time I've asked him for even the gentlest nudge in this game. I'm really worried he won't have anything to say. Like,'m worried he's just gonna sit in the entire podcast recording just like. Yeah, just quick cut check. Russ, how many hours have you clocked in this one? The play clock says like 35 hours. Yeah, I'm at 38, Justin,

so I don't think you understand the dynamic. You're walking into the fucking tiger pit right now, baby. There is no safe space for you. I only mean in Russ's hesitance to reveal anything about the game. What is there to reveal even, Justin? What will Fresh Stick even be comfortable? You guys are both gonna be like, God!

This is life of Pi, baby. You're on the fucking boat, but there's two tigers. I'm on the boat with two tigers! Two tigers! But the two tigers is actually a clue to the soul. That's right. It might lead to something. How many stripes are on that tiger?

Are the tigers looking at each other? How many teeth are they? Count the teeth. People understand these references when they play the game. Or they won't. I'm fine with that too. Or there is no game. Maybe there is no game. All I know is that I'm fine with that too. Or there is no game! Maybe there is no game. All I know is that game of the week.

My name is Griffin Macari. For real, I know the best game of the week. My name is Russ Fruschen and I know the best game of the week. Welcome to the Besties where we talk about the latest and greatest in home interactive entertainment. It is a video game club. And just by listening, my friend, you have become a member. And this week we are talking about an excellent game called Animal Well.

Russ Freshdick. What's Animal Well? Careful, Russ. Fuck. Don't ruin it. You're holding a baby bird in your hands right now. Do not squish this baby bird. Justin just got up to leave. He doesn't want any spoilers. You're an egg person.

And yes, we know you're an egg person. Go ahead and start describing the game though, Rush. And I am the egg person. That is a walrus. It has four teeth. It's facing the left. It's a mysterious platforming exploration game in the spirit of games like Fez,

and I guess Tuneck, which isn't really a platforming game, but it does have mysteries in it. Lots of mysteries. In which nothing is as it seems. Puzzles upon puzzles within puzzles beside puzzles. In the puzzles. In the puzzles. This is part of Animal Well.

Yeah. If you're listening to this podcast for clues of the animal well ARG, you will not be disappointed six five four five Okay, we're going to take a break and then we'll talk about the game right after this I'm gonna start because you two would be insufferable Probably a fair there is actually something I wanted to start with before we talk about the game itself. I wanted to start with the message that I sent you guys when I sent code for this game several weeks ago.

This is exactly what I wanted to try to avoid is your fucking chicanery, but please go right ahead, Russ. Okay, so when we got code, this was a while ago, like a couple weeks ago, I wrote, important. I have a request for this one. I want you guys to really try to get as far as you can without getting help. I kind of want to see what happens when other people have

the, quote, frustrating experience of staying completely blind on something. I think it might make for a fun episode. If you get stuck, I can try to nudge you further along, but this is really one of those games you're supposed to puzzle out for yourself. I think that was sage advice for us. I think that this is gonna be kind of a weird one to talk about because I think my experience with the game,

which has been sublime. I told you motherfuckers to let me tell them what the fucking game is before you start with this garbage! Go ahead, Deuce. Okay! Fuck! Animal Well looks like an old game, like a lot of games do these days, but it looks like

an old game in a really, really pretty way. There are effects in this I've never seen in a 2D pixel thing at all. It's incredible. The, this is a, like they said, puzzle platformer. And it is ostensibly a search action game in a sense. It's sort of a, I would almost call it if this is a search puzzle game. Because you are, there are puzzles

and the main thing you're doing is solving puzzles, but there are times when you don't have what you need to solve the puzzle. There's not a lot of action either. No. There's not. When there is though, it's pretty intense. Yeah, sure. There is almost no handholding from the game whatsoever in terms of the very explicit, I want you to go do this now. Right. Right. But it is laid out in a way where the design of it is doing that and is helping you to find the next thing that you need to puzzle out. And what is really, I think, most admirable about it,

and what's coolest about it is that in a lot of these games, when you clear out an area, you sort of like close that down in your mind. Like, okay, well, that's done with. I cleaned it all out. I'm not going back. Forget in Animal Well. And like a Metroid, you might go back and there's like a missile tank or something.

Yeah, exactly. But you know where it is. You know when to come back to it. You know what you're missing to go and get that thing, right? Right. What Animal Well does that I think is so cool is that a lot of the times the things that you are unlocking to help you progress are items

and sometimes they're understanding. And the understanding, you may not even know what it is that you saw earlier, but like half in your mind, there'll be some part of you that's like, oh my God, I've seen this. Yes. It's in one of the biggest maps. It's somewhere. Yeah. And maps. Like, it's somewhere.

And that is like, we're speaking really generally here because this sort of meta uncovering of the mechanics really is what the experience is. Yeah. Yeah, Justin's mention of the knowledge being like an unlocking feature, is I will say this as one of the few things Again, Justin was right when he said I'm just gonna be really cagey one of the few things that you unlock about like a couple hours into the game is a

Pencil and I told Justin when he found it because he said to me he was like, oh I found some bullshit It was like a pencil or something. I said, Justin, that is one of the most important items in the entire game. Yeah. And it is because so much of this game, my, so at a certain point- I took a single note with the pencil. I wrote HJ in one spot to remind myself

that I need a high jump apparently. And then every time I looked at it, I'm like, I need a hand job to get past there? All right, fine. That's the only note I took. It actually looked more like HGJ with like a scribble because it's impossible to write with the pencil. So you are actually high about the pencil.

I don't know what you're talking about. Dude, my map looks like the fucking Unabomber's notebook. It is covered in scrawl. It is full Da Vinci code on that shit. So you can literally, you get a map. It's like a traditional Metroid search action game shit. So you can literally, you get a map, it's like a traditional Metroidvania search action game map, but you can literally draw on it when you unlock this pencil. So you can write text, but you're using like a pixel analog stick like drawing tool. So it's not really

convenient at all, but if you needed to draw like words or arrows or things like that, it's serviceable. And what it ends up looking like, as Griffin alluded to, is you are an insane person, like scrawling all over this map. Like I have one area that has like just cave wolf written on it. And there's like a little being inside a cave that I thought maybe was a wolf, but other

thing, other people think it's a groundhog. Um, there's like patterns that I thought might be important, but might not be. The entire thing is like trying to track this knowledge and trying to get yourself in a place where you don't have to be like, Oh, where the hell was that thing again? Let me, let me say this, because I don't want to scare people off of this game. Yeah. I think what makes this game so this is a make you feel smart game. It is also, I think what makes this game so, this is a make you feel smart game. It is also, I think, in the inverse,

as sometimes those games are, a make you feel kind of not smart game if you get stymied by something. It certainly makes you feel paranoid at times. It certainly makes you feel pretty fucking paranoid, I think is a pretty good way of thinking about it, where you all see like some flickering light in the background of one screen and be like,

is this a butterfly? And I, but like it delivers those like breakthrough, like, uh, eureka moments better than like maybe any game I've ever played. This is, this is this year's like, for me, chance, chance of Senar or golden idol or Obra din. Like this year's like for me chance of Senar or Golden Idol or Obra Dinn. Like this is the like. It also reminds me of Outer Wilds was the other game. Outer Wilds, yeah.

Outer Wilds is a perfect example of like when you start to understand it, the feeling that it gives you is not like a feeling that games usually do give you, which is not like, oh, I got strong enough. This is like, fuck it. Like I'm so glad I used my human brain to crack this open. What I think is cool is that there's different strata

of that, there are different levels of completing this game. You can play it, you know, pretty straightforward search action game and hit the credits. Then there's- It's basically what Justin did, correct? Yes, I believe so. Yeah, and everyone's speaking about it in an incredibly dismissive way.

Oh, I don't mean to. It's like, all this stuff that you're, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that because that was very like, that is also an excellent experience. Like the- Yeah, for sure. I totally agree.

Okay. I think I went too deep. I went too deep down the rabbit hole and have gone a very long time without breakthroughs. So there's also a wrong way to go into this. You're in the, Griffin is in the inception, like beach, like crumbled skyscraper level of the game.

I've had maybe a full five or six hours without any breakthroughs or anything happening. Coop's just had like the awesome heist sequence, basically. Then there's these, this isn't really a spoiler, there's eggs that you find all over the map. And they're not particularly, they don't do anything for you at face value, there's just a bunch of hidden items throughout the map,

and you can go through and find those. And then there's an even deeper layer of full-blown pseudo-G like tinfoil hat level that you can also get into. And I think each one of those is very rewarding even though I feel like I have hit a full roadblock and can no longer make any progress in one of those layers. For the people listening at home,

I think basically anyone who has played a search action game before can get to the credits of this game. It might be tricky at times. It certainly can be a little bit hard to figure out where to. I would say if you're pretty decent at platformers, too, towards the end, it gets a little fiddly with, not even fiddly, because that has a negative foundation, but it demands some pretty precise timing.

It's not like meepoy level, but it's more involved than like you'd see in a Metroid certainly. Yeah. And then I think the second layer is for people that are like, generally completionists, people that like to find all the little collectibles and things like that.

And what's cool about that stage is that they're not like randomly placed, like each of little collectibles and things like that. And what's cool about that stage is that they're not like randomly placed. Like each of those collectibles usually has like a mini puzzle associated with it. And it's pretty satisfying to like go through and find them all. The game has also in game ways for you to like kind of find those kind of track.

It doesn't do the like, there's no item that's like a compass that leads you to the collectible you're missing, but there is some in-game stuff that makes it a little bit easier to get that. Yeah, the analog being like when I was trying to find all the frogs in fucking Tears of the Kingdom, finding the tool that let you highlight

where all the caves were was like a big luxury. And the fact that was in the game that I didn't need to use a guide or whatever to find them all made it much more satisfying to me because I felt like I did it myself. And this game definitely offers those same sort of tools. They just really do a good job of obfuscating like where those tools are. I tell you what's really kind of stunning about this is that like Russ has been alluding to

and I think Griffin and Russ both have been talking about the amount of time that they've been spending in this game. And once I rolled credits, I was like, okay, there must be, there's obviously a lot more that is going on past this that is happening. But now, right now at the point that I'm at, having finished it, I don't know what that is. And that's wild because it's not like, I don't know.

And what's cool about that is that whatever you all have been studying and referring to and clinging to, it has not been so forefront that it has distracted me. And that's really, if you think about that, the challenge of that in a game that has like no text instruction almost, that you are able to like layer mechanics within each other out in plain view.

Like it's amazing. I'll give you a simple example of something they do that's really cool. You have an inventory screen. You'll find gear that like example of something they do that's really cool. You have an inventory screen. You'll find gear that like lets you explore the map, things like that. And you'll be like, oh, I can kind of guess how much inventory I'll get

based on how much space there is in the map. And then they'll start dropping inventory items in the like corners of your inventory screen. Like you didn't fucking think there's gonna be anything there. And suddenly you have this new ability or this new unlocking whatever, a key to something. And you don't fucking think there's gonna be anything there and suddenly you have this new ability or this new unlocking Whatever a key to something and you don't know where it goes

But you know it does something and you know it's important And so the game is constantly giving me these little like ropes to pull you along into something like new mystery that you're trying to cover I I Here's a complicated thought that I have about this game I think I, here's a complicated thought that I have about this game. I think that if I did not have pre-release code for this game, my experience playing it would have been dramatically different. Because here, and we're recording this, you know,

before the game is out. Once it's out, there will be guides. There will be resources online, I'm assuming within a week or two. Probably less, because I'm sure there are people that are playing right now that have probably been writing guides for us. Yeah, but they're going to crack this wide open.

And there are so many times where I got stuck by a puzzle and really, really wrestled with it. I played this game a lot. We've been traveling a lot. And I played this game on flights, where I have no internet connection, no wrestle with it. I played this game a lot. We've been traveling a lot, and I played this game on flights, where I have no internet connection, no Rust connection whatsoever. I can't hit him.

So I'd just be playing for three hours, just slamming my head against a wall, just trying to make some breakthroughs. I know that if those guides existed out there, I would have caved in and gone for them, right? And that's not to say that that ruins the experience of the game, because I think this is a tremendous foundational game

that genuinely everybody should play. But I also think that there has been something very unique about the fact that, especially as you hit that, what I assume is the final strata of the most hidden of most hidden of most hidden secrets. Like, I have needed, like, book club level sort of assistance from other people playing the game. Like, do you have anything? Do you know what this is? Have you figured out what this is? That experience has been fucking rad. That experience has been very, very cool.

And I think if you, you know, play games and talk about games with other people, try and recreate that as best you can. Like have a buddy that you play this game with that you can like try and bounce off solutions with. Because I do think it would rob you of something of the experience for you to go to game facts like as soon as you hit a wall. To second that with Griffin, I am a huge proponent of using a guide in a game

if you are at a part that you're struggling with, or you wanna make track day a bunch of collectibles more fun, or literally any reason that you want to. This is one that I got to the end of without doing that. I got a couple of nudges from Russ and Griffin throughout, but I really, I think that if you, in addition to like, you'll just kind of ruin it for yourself because it is the game.

I think that learning how to, and that's where the nature of most of those nudges was not like learning a solution, but learning how to think and what you should be looking at. And like, I'll give you an example, right? I needed a couple of nudges from Griffin and Russ early on because I was playing in the way that I would play

most other search action games. And it wasn't until about halfway through the game where I would go into a new screen, and this would be my one tip that I would actually give, just look at it. You know what I mean? Just look at it for a second before, because like instantly, right?

I run in the room and I start, oh, there's a path. I'm gonna jump over here. Oh, there's a guy. If I just stopped and like looked at it, because that gave me so much information that I was completely missing before. So I didn't need a guide. I was getting it easier later

because I was thinking in the right way. I was paying attention to more stuff. Yeah. It got easier. But if I had used a guide, I think I would have had a gap in my brain that I would have needed to build to the next thing. There's so much intentionality

to the way the map is designed. Everything has a purpose. Every strand of branch that's hanging down has a reason that it's there beyond just the aesthetic or For the most part, you know some of them are just aesthetic and just for looks and you know can be tricky to discern which ones are important versus not but I agree with Justin like not only is like looking at a screen important Like I spent so much time just like zoomed in as much as I could

to the overall map of the game, looking for an open pixel here or an open door there that might lead to that next step. And then when you find that next step and if you feel like you haven't really gotten any help or whatever, you feel ownership over the item that you found or the thing you uncovered because you uncovered it on your own.

And I think that is the thing that I want more people to experience if they can, that feeling of ownership, of feeling like you did this thing rather than someone kind of spoon feeding it to you. And it's also worth noting that like Chance of Cenar, like Obra Dinn, like Golden Idol, you can only figure this out once.

And then once you've done it, once you crack the code, once you make these realizations, once you have these epiphanies, you get those once. And if you blow through it with a guide, there's really nothing to come back to. The subtitle that like this game kind of unofficially has in all of its marketing is a game of secrets.

And it really is. And if you, once you figure those secrets out, it's a very cool moment, but they really only packs that punch one time. And so like- Although the game for its credit does have like, it clearly supports a speed running in some way. Yeah, for sure.

So, you know, people are already gonna find routes through the game on replays that kind of create a new game in that way. I mean, it won't be the same level of secrets, but it does kind of make you look at the map in a very different way when you're going through it again. I will say, this is one of those where it really is not about the game, but it is a bit of a like,

if you are not the sort of person that is cool with like slowing down a bit and really focusing on something or you're just not great with like, I think my navigational skills and my memory are bad enough that like this was probably a lot harder than it needed to be. Pencil. Like I'm the... That's what I'm saying, man. But like you are the sort of person...

You're a pencil weirdo, Russ, and not everybody is. If you're not a pencil weirdo, if you're not down for it, I think you will still have a very, it's very cool. Like I don't, like this meta stuff is actually a side effect of the fact that, like, this is not just a podcast about this game. Because for the, like, level of survey that we would normally do, getting to the end of the credits

is usually discussion. It's usually sufficient, yeah. What, like, a year from now, once, like, this game has been cracked wide open, I would love to come back and talk about some of the shit that this game has pulled. Oh, yeah. Because it's genuinely stunning, some of the things that this game has been cracked right open. I would love to come back and talk about some of the shit that this game has pulled. Because it's genuinely stunning,

some of the things that this game has done in these like wild arcane layers of it. Griffin, I have a serious question though on that topic. Do you really honestly think that the game will be fully uncovered in a year? Based on the secrets that we've seen? I don't know, I don't know. I don't know, there may be, see this is the thing.

This is the thing. this is the thing. I played the game at the search action game level and then I was like, ooh, there's all these. You played it as a video game and now. I beat it as a video game and then I was like, ooh, there's all these little eggs. I'm gonna find all these tasty little eggs. And then I was like, oh shit, wait a minute,

there's a whole nother thing underneath the eggs. You know, whether or not we get through that layer, there might be a whole nother fucking layer. Who knows? I wanted to say really quick, because we talked about sort of like best practices, something that this game has made me do, that I've never, I don't think I've ever really

utilized this function in any other video game ever. I have been taking screenshots like I'm doing a fuckin' nature documentary, like I'm doing a spread for Nat Geo. I have like 45 screenshots on my Steam Deck of this thing, which if you're playing on Steam Deck, hold Steam, hit R1, that's the screenshot button, do that, anytime you see any pattern,

anything weird, anything at all, take a screenshot of that shit, because otherwise you will forget where it is and you will wanna refer back to it later and you will not be able to do so. Griffin, I shortcutted screenshot to back to R5 on my Steam deck. That's great.

I was doing it that much. Right now, having finished it, I think my main hesitation about going back is, I get really frustrated seeing a spot on the map I want to go to and not knowing how to get there. And I know that like if I was smarter and better, a better person, more moral, more obedient, like I would be able to do it.

But like, that is my main struggle with like, you see a spot, you're like, oh, there's something there I wanna check out, but like not knowing how to get there, I found pretty frustrating. I'm at 38 hours, Russ is at 35. I know for a fact this is true for Russ, it's true for me. There's still spots on the map that are empty for me

that I cannot figure out how to fucking get to. I think that's a rarity though. I think for the most part- It's not like, it's not as much like spots I wanna explore. It's like spots I've seen before. It's like, oh God, how do I get back to the, even if I can point to it on the map and see the path that it kind of connects,

like it's just a lot of times it's a big long slog I get back to this even if I can point to it on the map and see the path? I kind of connects like it's just a lot of times. It's a big long slog to get back to something. Oh, man I have a question Justin yes, I know the question you're gonna ask him I would rather not even get into it on the podcast if I'm being okay, that's very insightful Let's take a break and then we'll come back about animal kicks ass go get it It's fucking literally anything else fucking good do go get animal well You're gonna hear about it on the besties a couple times. It's been a can I say guys so far This can't I this downloaded on the day that Hades to showed up on my code you look at this year so far

The besties are eating good. Yeah, we got we got an insane Poker game you can play for 60 hours And a puzzle platformer that doesn't appear to be finite. We're eating a good in 2024. It's a good year for the besties. What's that? A Yakuza game with Animal Crossing inside it? A yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza game, yakuza Even plant got his dirty unicorn game. That's the book appearing to be a video game. I'm trying not to fall.

Let's take a break. We'll bring the tone down considerably. No fucking kidding. Okay, so that was Animal Well. Obviously we all are big, big fans of it. We are gonna bring down the tone a little bit because this week saw the closure of several studios who, apart from employing people, and we certainly

want people to be employed, also made really, really great games. And it's a big, big drag of that. And I kind of wanted to take a moment and appreciate some of the works they've done. The studios that closed were Arcane Austin, Tango Gameworks, Roundhouse, and Alpha Dog. Closed by Microsoft, like if,

these were all closed by Microsoft after being acquired in the like Zinamax deal. Right, when Microsoft bought Bethesda, these were studios that were part of that company and this is Microsoft shuttled. If you're not like, in following the industry to a degree where you recognize developer names,

this is, Arcane Austin made, most recently Redfall, which was not great, but they also made fucking Prey. And they co-developed Dishonored One. Co-developed Dishonored One, they made some incredible games. Tango Gameworks made some of the best survival horror games in the last decade in The Evil Within.

They also made last year fucking Hi-Fi Rush, which was a critical darling. That one's wild to me, because that's like a mid-level, mid-budget, I guess I mean, game. I think it came out like $40, surprise hit, everybody loved it. It was free on Game Pass.

It was a day-in-day launch on Game Pass. But I think it's a- What else do you want from this? This is why this news is so, it's infuriating and it's exasperating, because like the tone, this has happened, this has been, this is not the first studio closure or mass layoff that's happened in the last year.

This is the one where I'm seeing a lot of people in the industry saying like, what the fuck are we doing, like why are we still a part of this industry when you can make a fucking smash hit game and then just get destroyed for Microsoft to hit some line item on their budget for them to appease some shareholder instead of incubating and cultivating the kind of stuff

that you need for a developer to become the powerhouse that it needs to be. It's fucking, it's enraging to me. Particularly Tango hits really hard. Because Tango Gameworks, Tango was Shinji Mikami's like, supposed to be like incubator for young talent in this industry. And it's like the, it is such a huge slap in the face

to have that get shut down after having a track record that is, in my book, pretty fucking strong, pretty pristine. I mean, the track, like it, Microsoft, holistically speaking, they need some hits. Like Microsoft needs some hits. Microsoft has been in a real dry spell. And the more of these closures that come down,

the more I wonder like, where is it? Who's gonna make them? Where's gonna come from? I mean, like, is it just gonna be that they're like getting out of the video game business and they just wanna be in the Call of Duty business? I mean, is that like, is it really going to be, I mean, we laughed but like Activision had Call of Duty and made that exact

business decision. Like they were like, we don't want to be in the video game business. We want to be in the Call of Duty business. And I, I mean, obviously, well, and the mobile gaming and the right and the candy crush, the candy crush. But at least in that, in that case, like, I'm not, I'm, aside from this show, this show is my foothold in the games industry, and that foothold is more tenuous. I love doing this show. It's more tenuous than it was when I was a fucking nose to the grindstone reporter for

polygon.com, right? So like, I'm not as like keyed into this as maybe I would be, but like, at least you talk about Activision. Bungie got out of Activision with Destiny, right? There were some conflicts there that are probably above my head, but Bungie at least got out. They divested themselves from Activision.

What has happened? I mean, they did get bought by Sony later, so. That's fair, that is true, but like, I don't know. To me, it's just, this is such an enormous amount of talent and creative spark that, you know, honestly had not even, I think, gotten much of a chance, a fair chance to flourish. IP and games that people really, really clicked with

and really, really loved recently that have overnight been snuffed out. That's, it is a loss on a level that is genuinely like, I've been working in this industry for a while now, it is tough to comprehend, let alone stomach. The really fucked up thing is actually the IP has not been snuffed out because Microsoft still owns the IP. Right, so like, but they're not gonna, like,

who's gonna make it? Like back to the question, it's like, who's gonna make this fucking, who's gonna make these things? Microsoft could make a prey too, if they, I mean, not to say that the first game did like gangbusters, but. But who, where?

Who at Microsoft, like, Phil Spencer's not gonna be in the fucking studio working, you know. No, sure. Yeah, they need the studios, Microsoft, like Phil Spencer's not gonna be in the fucking studio working. No, sure. You know. Yeah, they need the studios, I agree. They need people, they need people to make the game. Like this is a, this is a, Microsoft, I feel like, has made so many plays at being a friend to developers

and being this like safe haven, you know, first party, you know, first party generator that can support these studios. And I don't know how they could possibly ever try and salvage that reputation after yesterday. I am increasingly convinced. I don't think at this point, I don't think Microsoft is point, I don't think Microsoft is going to make another game console.

I do not think Microsoft is going to make another game console because if you're going to make a game console, the kind of games that you want are the games where you're like, only we can make this. You can only play Dishonored here. You can only play Hi-Fi Rush here. You can only play those games here. Like these are the sort of like they need to have a first party business if they're going to be a first party company. And the more and more of these studios that they shutter, it makes me feel like they are not going to continue to be in the first party development, like trying to be a player in the console space.

It doesn't look like they're trying to keep the bench. I mean, they wouldn't be a player in the console space, it doesn't look like they're trying to keep the bench. I mean, they wouldn't be a player in the PC space, apart from their like Windows, you know, business. Like if you're not making games, doesn't matter if it's, you know, PC or console at that point, like you're just not really in the game business. I think that they could get to,

I think though that if I'm a third party developer that doesn't need to worry about keeping a robust slate I think though that if I'm a third party developer that doesn't need to worry about keeping a robust slate of titles on my console, then I can focus on just the things that are big money generators. And I don't have to make sure it's a diverse ecosystem of games on the console, right?

So like Sega. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, sure. I mean, Sega I think is, yup. They're doing it. They're doing it a lot like Sega. I mean, like Sega, except they own this wide swath of the console, the PC market where they have this like software foothold over there that has like, that can smooth that over.

I just don't see, I don't see Microsoft with these, with layoffs like this, like I don't think they're gonna keep being a first-party developer. I think that they are keeping the most profitable parts, segments of the business, and they're getting out of the rest of it. It is a bungling, like it is a mismanagement on a catastrophic level.

When you think about how acquisition crazy they have been over the last few years, if you look at the studios that are under Microsoft, like Obsidian, Ninja Theory, Double Fine, Rare, like, I would be extremely worried if I worked for one of those, like, what do you have to do? What is good enough? Fucking Double Fine, man, that's, it's terrifying to me. I have no idea. Well, okay, I I, I'm glad you guys mentioned Double Fine.

So I think we all watched a lot of the documentary, if not the whole thing. Yeah. The pretty clear assumption regarding the documentary was that Double Fine as a business, when it was independent, was like on a needle's edge basically constantly. Like Tim and whomever, Greg were going out

and pitching their games for every single time they had a game coming out and really like trying to get money for them. And so Microsoft came in and bought them. And in a lot of ways you could think that Microsoft gave them more of a lifeline than they would have had as an independent studio, but with that deal comes the precariousness that you are no longer in control of your own fate.

Your fate is determined not by just you, but also by the business world and what other things they're going on within Microsoft. Now granted, if you have a big smash hit, that is you kind of controlling your fate Like you know if some studio had like sold a billion billion copies They're not gonna get closed down But yeah, I mean that's that is the challenge that I think all of these studios are facing

especially these like mid-level mid-size studios I should say is like keeping that shit alive with the expense of making games which continues to get more and more expensive is so fucking hard. So sometimes you just wanna be like, I just need someone else to fucking decide whether we're gonna exist or not. That's what I, like, I don't know.

This industry is pretty fucked. I think, like right now, more than maybe any time that I've ever worked in the games industry, like you can't look at the news feed for the last year and not come to the conclusion that the industry's pretty fucked. And I don't know how you unfuck it. I think having more sort of small to mid-level publishers,

just so people have options to support their, the work, like the creative work that they do instead of being thrown into the woodchip. Fucking, Animal Well is the first game published by Big Mode, which is a new game publisher. Something on the, I'm not familiar enough with Devolver's back end, but more options so that you don't have to, so that when Microsoft comes to your door, you can say, are you fucking kidding me?

Like, no way, dude. Well, it's also worth noting that Animal Well was basically created by one person, Billy Basso, over the course of seven years. Right, it's a question of scale that has made it difficult to replicate. I just, man, it- I love that, man.

I love Billy Basso working on this game for seven years, and being like, man, it- I love that, man. I love Billy Bassett working on this game for seven years and be like, Russ, I've been looking for the candle for 15 minutes, where is it? Just tell me where it is, Billy, please. Where do I use it? Yeah, I spoke to, I DM'd him a little bit, not asking questions, but just like talking about like cool moments that happen.

And you can tell, like this is a true personal passion project. Obviously you worked on it for seven years. I love that you felt the need to clarify that you didn't ask him questions. I felt tempted. Well, and also like I wasn't. In what universe would you rush fresh to be like,

hey, let me get a chicken. Bra, bra. What's up with this bird? Hey bra, give me the no clip. Bra, let me get a G. Bra, bra. What's up with this bird? Hey bra, give me the no clip. Bra, let me get the no clip. Does this call into question like Game Pass as a, like, can't be that great, like, can't be that great as a business model

if companies keep making games that are pretty fucking good that go up on it day one and then they get there, they get closed down within a year. I certainly think it shows that there's a lot of risk in Game Pass because you invest so heavily in a game. Let's look at Redfall, for example, which is in development for many years, big studio, lots of expenses, goes up on Game Pass

as like an advertisement basically for people to sign up for Game Pass. And it comes out and it tanks. Like that's way more of a loss for Microsoft than it would be if it sold for $60 in tanks. But there's also- But Game Pass makes sense only in the context of games that have a super long tail.

I mean, one of the uniting factors like with both of these, with Arkane Austin and Tango Gameworks, like they are finite experiences. Like we saw how making like an ongoing thing went for Redfall and like, if Redfall had been a persistent hit that was continuing to generate revenue, there's no question they'd be open.

Like, but that is the kind of, I think that's the kind of business they want to be in is Game Pass, right? Cause even a great game only feeds the engine for so long, then you gotta get something and put something else in. But how many games get put on Game Pass with no marketing support or any? I think this is what Microsoft is the worst at.

Maybe it's of the big- Can't justify marketing maybe If the game doesn't cost money, I mean You know what I mean? Like it's funny It's like Netflix you look at how many shows go up there and you like what the fuck is this? And yeah, you might hear like critical response, but you certainly didn't hear from well I'm not sure that we should hold Netflix up as the paragon of being Right, it's just it's it's there's there's clearly there's a bottom-filling example of a company not doing it right. It's just, it's, it's, there's, there's, clearly there's a way of doing this right. There's companies out there who aren't acquiring and then closing down beloved game studios and frankly ruining hundreds and hundreds, scores of lives over the span of like a single

email. That is, that is heinous beyond measure. There's a way of doing this right. I just don't think Microsoft knows what the fuck they're doing and how to act in this industry at this time. I don't know that there's a big giant publisher that necessarily is doing it much better, unfortunately. Like you're seeing Square Enix do major big cuts.

You know, a lot of this is also, this is not excusing anyone, but a lot of this is also the global economy, where it's at right now. Sure. There is no padding to allow for like, oh, this was a miss, but we can sustain ourselves for the next one.

It's like, because capitalism at its core is a little kind of broken. Yeah. That you end up in these situations where it's like the only way to succeed is to narrow and make sure your margins are as tight as fucking possible so that your shareholders are getting what they want. So it's just like.

It's tough because when you're talking about, and I think that this is like, you know, listener, especially if you're a little bit younger, please try to remember this is like a, an encapsulation of something. Because when you have a merger or you have an acquisition, by definition, that means, Hey, I bet I could run that for cheaper than you're running it. I bet I could make more money than you're making off of that.

Because otherwise, why else am I buying it? Right? This is by design. You buy these studios and like, it doesn't usually, because otherwise, why else am I buying it, right? This is by design. You buy these studios and like, it doesn't usually, you know, I think that it's more notable when it's large creative teams being laid off, but you don't buy a Bethesda because you want to keep their entire HR operation. Right. You buy a Bethesda because you want to, you know, lay off a bunch of their support staff.

And I mean, you look at even the DoubleFi documentary, Greg Rice, who'd been partnered with Tim for, Greg Rice? No. Yeah. Yes. Greg Rice, who'd been partnered with Tim for many, many years as soon as that acquisition went through. I mean, the documentary, it's played for like, and this may very well be true, I don't know, but there's nothing more for me to do here, so I'm going to move on. But I bet the writing was also on the wall that like, hey, we're owned by Xbox now. We don't need a business guy. It is no longer my job to get us money. This is by design.

That's what Microsoft's job. That's what I'm saying. This is all by design, right? You buy the Bethesda so you can get the two profitable things that make a ton of money, so you can keep making Starfield and Fallout and Elder Scrollss and then anything else that isn't generating huge profits,

you don't notice because you're Microsoft, suppose. I mean- Do you think Microsoft is out of the acquisition game? I mean, I can't, no. No. Not even less than they have been over the last year. Microsoft doesn't care that this is happening. Microsoft knew, you don't fight as hard for that,

the money for the Activision acquisition doesn't come from nowhere. Obviously there's probably some loans that it's taking out against the company, but like this may all be by design, guys. And I would also say the value is not, sadly, this kills me, but the value for Microsoft is not always the people,

it's the IP, it's the franchises, the fact that Fallout is a giant. And by Microsoft, you mean literally every company on the face of the earth. Yeah, every company, but in this case, the Microsoft example, the fact that Fallout is a giant success is now a Microsoft success,

it's not a Bethesda success, for a TV show I'm talking about. So like they're, you know, a studio of that scale is more dead set on ensuring that they have these franchises rather than making sure that they have like 30 studios to make games for those franchises. It's just, but that is so, and I know this is easy for us to say, it's so fucking short-sighted.

It's so short-sighted. This is such a huge hit industry-wide, just from a human being level. Like the human beings who make games are not going to be making games for Microsoft, they're not going to be working with these studios to make games are not going to, are not going to be making games for Microsoft. They're not going to be working with these studios to make games anymore. And that process-

And a lot of them won't ever make another game. And those processes, like sometimes they require some failures, right? This is the, how many game studios have had hits be their first fucking game? Like almost nobody. It takes a while to kind of like ramp up, learn how to work together,

learn like what gets you excited. I understand that like that model doesn't fit into the dollars and cents of running an enormous corporation like Microsoft, but also Microsoft cleared like 20 billion fucking dollars in profit last year. I always say it's a big company with lots of different slices in it, but like at a certain point, you got to understand if you had a steady hand on the rudder of this fucking thing You would be able to weather the like yeah, yeah, you know Maybe hi-fi rush a lot of people loved it, but it wasn't this huge commercial success for us like To have the confidence to say like well, we'll stick with it. Maybe the next one will be the big

there's a certain element of that that is intrinsic to will be the big, there's a certain element of that that is intrinsic to making games in this industry that hit at the level that Microsoft obviously wants games to hit at and they will never ever, ever, ever, ever get there with this type of strategy. I think that, to try to put a little bit more of a positive or at least, I mean- Can't wait to hear that.

Good luck, Justin. No, well, I mean, this is longer down the road, but I think that this is my hope at least. And, you know, it's always a risk trying to predict stuff. But my hope is that we're going to continue to see, well, this is not my hope. This will just happen. We're going to continue to see more layoffs like this in 2024. It's going to continue to be a big, a big problem.

I think part of it is a gap created by COVID. There's a big window that we lost in development and that has a cost. I think that some of that is probably people overspending and overreaching during that when there was cheap money available and then it catching up with them. My hope is that this talent is still talent and these people still want to make games. My hope is that you are seeing a press of the gigantic mega corp publisher being pushed, losing their taste for gobbling things up. And some of this talent is going to find itself at a smaller, more sustainable level

and work on projects independently that they know and that they have the expertise that we're going to see like smaller studios start to rise up again and be more wary of this sort of rampant acquisition. That's what I hope at least because the talent is still there. Yes. And I have to hope that eventually some of these people find their way back to making games. I hope that as well. But there's also an element of this, that there are now probably hundreds,

if not over a thousand, I don't know the scale of how many people these studios employed. It was a great deal of people, I have to imagine, who now don't know how to make rent next month. There's an element of this of like, this is so- I mean, yeah, I'm not saying that you are oblivious to that. I'm saying that- What's your counterpoint

to what I'm saying? Like I am obviously zooming out quite a bit. I do understand that it's very bad to lose your job. I am not saying that you don't recognize that. I am saying that how many of these people are just gonna say, I'm fucking done. Like, I'm fucking done. Yeah, and I do think- Oh, I wouldn't blame them.

Absolutely, Griff, 100%. And I don't know where, I don't even know where the good jobs are well enough to say, hey, y'all go into, I don't know, is animation better? I don't think I haven't heard great stuff. I do know that games would be better if they were remotely unionized, I think would be a pretty good start

of just making sure that when these decisions get made, remotely unionized, I think would be a pretty good start of just making sure that when these decisions get made, the human element of them wasn't the first thing that was thrown in the goddamn garbage can. Right, if you were acquired by a company like Microsoft and they knew that they had to pay you six months of severance or whatever it is because of your union contract,

that will make Microsoft think twice about maybe a corner. About discarding you without a thought, yeah. It is, it is also, I, in addition to spring, you know, I think unionization would be fantastic. I have to imagine it's going to make everyone a lot more cautious of acquisition going forward. I would hope so. Like, if I'm an employee,

and one of these big corporations come sniffing around my small indie developer, I would already be talking to the boss like, fucking, I'll walk day one, like this is a nightmare. We see over and over and over and over and over again, to say nothing what the fan discourse is going to be. I mean, I think that you're going to see a real sharp turn against like any acquisition type stuff. It's such a tricky thing. It's a tricky thing because they need something,

like a lot of like the Double Fine example, there needs to be more support out there, there needs to be more systems of, we are describing a problem that is a hydra of like issues facing the global economy, this industry in general, and the sort of late stage capitalism circus that we all find ourselves witnessing every single day.

And there isn't an easy solution for it. There might not be any solution for it, which is scary and sad, but yeah. There is nothing about this news that is, this is heartbreaking, heartbreaking news. I am, it sucks. Yeah. Okay.

Well, we have some reader mail at least. That's a nice shift. This comes from Andrew. I just wanted to second Russ's recommendation of solo solo travel and recommend three other channels with a similar tone and genre, first person travel, which is what solo solo travel is. Dancing Bakins is basically the brother to solo solo travel, but for food, they go all around Asia and try stuff

from cool ramen restaurants and machines and candies and expensive sushi and anything else that seems cool. 4KWDW is solo solo travel, but for you guessed it, Disney World. They do everything from ride throughs to walking through the park to multiple hour long ultimate videos that cover the parks as much as they can. One can film. They even go to different parks across the country and world.

All filmed in glorious 4K as well. Finally, there are several channels that do this, but my favorite is walking ambience. That sounds cool. Which does walking tours of Las Vegas. They label their videos and point out highlights as you go along and are also 4K HDR. Hope this helps anyone who enjoys these kinds of videos or wants to show off their new high definition television.

That's cool. I really like, there's a few, I know Jeffrey and NYC is one that pops up on mine. I really like when people do that on TikTok, go live like in cities. It's always cool to like feel a little transported for a little bit knowing that someone is live somewhere else like walking around their neck of the woods.

It's probably not as cool for you to see New York, but I'm realizing that now. I've been there. Okay. I wanted to mention, this is a game we actually talked about on Resties that's coming out next week, I wanted to mention, this is a game we actually talked about on Resty's that's coming out next week, but I thought I'd give you guys a preview.

I was at a party and I ran into Bennett Foddy, maker of games QWOP and the upcoming Baby Steps. And Bennett recommended a game for me. And I thought you guys might be interested as well. I'm gonna DM it to you And you guys can take a look at the trailer live on air. Would you like us to do that live on air? Yeah, that sounds good. Not with audio, please. Okay. Okay. This is it says it's inappropriate now just now Russ Let's see. It's oh, I'm getting this seems kind of erotic. Oh my god Russ I have to log in to see this, you fucking degenerate.

This is an erotic pixel, looks like, looks like, wow, okay, wow, okay. All right, I'm gonna close this, this window now, and I don't know that we should talk about this. You know, any immediate thoughts now? Well, we did talk a little bit about it on the resties. So if you want to know what that was, you can be, you can look into it.

I do think it's an interesting project, especially given the provenance of where it was recommended from. Oh, Griffin is making a face. He's seeing things. He's seeing things. Yeah, so I guess tune in to next week's Resties to find out. You can only imagine-

I'm so mad that I can't see it. I just wanna see what you're talking about. You can only imagine Chris Plants' delicate Catholic sensibilities after having seen- It's an erotic pixel platformer. It's an erotic, it looks like an erotic pixel platformer with all kinds of sexual Lude stuff happening. So this is not an energy I expect. It's not an energy I expect or even want from Russ or Chris So like listen

2170 very positive reviews can't be wrong Griff Man, I think we might be underselling it. You can't do that. As long as people know what they're getting into. Absolutely. Support your Indies. That's where I'm at right now. So stay tuned for that.

That game is called Scarlet Maiden. If you want to ruin your algorithm, thanks Bennett Foddy for recommending that. It's a horrible one. I just don't want to hear about it from Russ. I guess it's the main sort of main thing issue. You're not King shaming, you're Russ shaming. I'm Russ shaming, absolutely.

Reasonable. Speaking of, oh, do you guys have any other honorable mentions to call out? I want to say real quick, I played Mars After Midnight, the new Lucas Pope game on the playdate. That's on the playdate, right? Where was it? On the playdate.

Where was your playdate? Oh, it was, I mean, I got it. A normal place. Is it Arms Reach? I like this old guy. Now it is, cause you've been playing it. Cause I've been playing Lucas Pope's, yeah. Lucas Pope maker of Papers, Please and Obra Dinn.

This game is a- I lost mine, I was hoping. It is so small. You had some clue as to where mine was. The play date, if you don't remember, is like the indie little very, very, very niche handheld with a crank on it that you could crank. Mars After Midnight is, first of all, it looks great.

I think the play date kind of unbacklit, simple one bit kind of like graphics really hits real good for the way Lucas Pope makes games. As long as you've got a lamp right there, you're good. Yeah, right. Yeah, I use my floodlights, my key lights for streaming stuff. It is basically like a, honestly,

like sort of a Game Boy demake of Papers, Please. You run a community center for aliens on Mars, and each night you host a workshop for disgruntled aliens, and you have to look out for certain features, like you might do one on gassy aliens. So you open up your window, and you see if the alien is farting or not.

And if they are, open the door, you let them in, serve them some snacks, you clean up after them, and then you go right on to the next alien. So it's sort of that papers please model of checking your restrictions on who can and can't come in. But then there's also this mini game of serving snacks and having to clean up afterwards. And it's cute, it's neat.

It's not, I think, groundbreaking or going to hit my go-to list or anything like that. But it is like a lot of play date games, just a nice little snack, just a nice little boost. I wonder if those games will ever hit other platforms. I realize there is a crank, but arguably you could use a mouse wheel, right? I don't know, the crank this on this game is next fucking level

You gotta have the crank maybe they'll make like a third party crank peripheral Yeah, if we'll that you can plug it PDP will make one. Yeah, exactly power a turbo crank Justin you have anything I was just thinking I mean, um, I Played a little Hades too, but I'm keeping that. It's next week, we're doing that next week. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

You two both don't have to, I already have- That's next week, Justin. I have a dad, one dad already and a dad and a wife, so I'm actually great on that. Talked about how good Shogun was, you should watch Shogun. We covered that, that's well handled. I played something else and it was good and I wanted to tell you guys no one say anything. Oh Man legacy of Kane Soul Reaver you guys fuck with this one. Yeah, absolutely

I I've been playing legacy of Kane Soul Reaver cuz I waited you joking no No, it's what I released. Did it get re-released? No. What are you playing it on? A video game. Are you a cop? A Play Legacy game? Soul Reaver?

I haven't played it for like 20 years and it kicks ass. It's so fun. It's still so fun to the way that they have it so that the enemies in that game don't get killed by you beating them up and you, a lot of, most of the enemies in that game don't get killed by you beating them up and you a lot of most the Enemies a game you have to find a way to super kill. Yeah is so good Still the acting in that game is still really really good It's a it's just a hoot I didn't know how easy it would be to return to because especially with 3d platformers

Action platformers of that era when everyone is like 3D platformers, action platformers of that era, when everyone is like, cameras, what do we do? It's- That's the one where you can walk between the shadow world and the normal world to like- It's so neat, when you get killed in the game, you just drop out of the physical plane, and it thrusts you into the spiritual realm,

and sometimes you have to use that mechanic to die and walk into the spiritual realm to go somewhere else It's also the one where there's like Spears on the wall, you know And you can like no scope dudes with your because you have to impale enemies to kill right you have to like use Vampire rules to kill vampires. You have to like look for a fire around that game whips ass. It's great I feel like Legacy Kane is one of the great unrealized

I feel like Legacy Kane is one of the great unrealized like franchises in gaming. Like it's always been like, the potential has been there for so long and it just hasn't been capitalized on. They're probably owned by Microsoft now at this point though. I mean, probably. Probably, I don't even think I'm joking.

It was. I mean, I think Square would have probably had its cause. Maybe. Oh, they did make a sequel. I mean, they made Soul Reaver 2, right? And then they made- Yeah, not well received. Another Blood Omen game, and then they made Nosgoth, which was not- Yeah.

Right, Soul Reaver. Didn't they make a Soul Reaver 2? They did, yes. Yes. Yes, it was, it just was kind of forgettable. Wow, literally, because I forgot about it. Yeah. That's actually a really good segue

because we have a bonus episode that is live on the Patreon for backers of the Patreon where we did a bracket battles episode determining the best second game in the, I guess, history of our franchise. And we have a clip of that. so we'll throw to that clip right now Now Justin has sent us The Metacritic scores of Super Mario Kart and Mario Kart 64 Justin. Do you want to present this evidence to the jury?

Oh, I love it. Well, all I will say is that the scores for Super Mario Kart review scores were just in order, without publications, 94, 96, 9 out of 10, 9 out of 10, 93, 10 out of 10, 92. Honest gamers gave it a 10 out of 10. And then the Metacritic for Mario Kart 64 is 83. And that is much lower than the average of those numbers for Super Mario Kart. This is not my way of saying that one should win over the other. It is, however, my way of saying that I am not to be chastised. Riticuled, yeah.

Riticuled. You guys decided to ridicule me. So now this is part of the conversation. Okay, well. The scores of Super Mario Kart are better than the scores for Mario Kart 64. That's all that matters. So make of that what you will.

Yeah, I would just factor in the fact that like back then, there was a lot of lead in the water and people didn't really know. Yeah, 1997 is when Mario Kart 64 came out and people were like going through a lot of shit. Yeah That episode definitely did not end in the way I was expecting. No, no, I think you know, the best second game of all time You might be wrong As near as I can tell embrace your group owns it

I think it's been embraced the legacy of Kane The legacy of Kane branding went to, it looks like it went to Square when they bought Crystal D and then currently it looks like it's in the, in the thrall of the Embracer groups. We'll see if that gets spun off. There have been, by the way, in case I'm a little, something worried me a little bit because we discussed like those closures. and just in case you haven't read because we don't do a lot of like news.

There have been a lot like there have been a lot like this and you should try to read up and catch up on it because we don't cover all of it here. But there have been massive layoffs at in the Embracer group within the past couple of months. So I did want to mention those as well because it it's a real shitty situation all across the board. Not just in Brightsburg, obviously, but everywhere. Yeah, our heart goes out to most people. Next week. We're doing Hades 2. Next week we are doing Hades 2,

which is an early access on Steam. It's available right now if you want to go play it. As far as from a pedigree standpoint. Right into my trap. I talk to you guys, I let you guys talk about Animal Well as far as from a pedigree standpoint. Right into my trap. I talked to you guys, I let you guys talk about Animal Well as much as you want and you walked right into my trap. Well, you're coming to Thunderdome next week and we guys are gonna talk about minutia.

Because I'm getting into it. I can't wait. I'm very excited. Thanks so much for listening to the Besties. Be sure to join us again next week for the Besties, because shouldn't the world's best friends pick the world's best games? Besties!