The Besties - The Besties 63 - The Last of Russ

Episode Date: July 12, 2013

It's possible you've never noticed this odd bit of Besties trivia. Each week, we invite a new clone of the original Russ Frushtick to discuss the week's best things. The new clone is cloned from the previous week's clone, Multiplicity style. Surely, you've assumed as much. The strange characters. The shrill introduction. The clues have been on the proverbial bottom of the mug all along. This week, we invited the 63rd member of the Frushtick bloodline to discuss Rogue Legacy. After the podcast, we repeated the weekly chore, locking the clone in a tank full of water and filing that tank into the back of a theater alongside its 62 brothers. This will be the last of Russ. Join us next week when the original Russ Frushtick returns to the show for the first time since episode one! 2:20 - Best family tree in gaming (Rogue Legacy) 14:40 - Best turning point of the week (The Last of Us) 30:00 - Halftime! 35:20 - Best way to play a stealth game (Dishonored, Deus Ex: Human Revolution) 42:00 - Best anniversary of the week (App Store's 5th anniversary) 49:00 - The winner is ... Theme song by Ian Dorsch Get the show: Download MP3" Subscribe to the podcast (RSS) Subscribe on iTunes Get the full list of games (and other stuff) discussed at www.besties.fan. Want more episodes? Join us at patreon.com/thebesties for three bonus episodes each month!

I had no idea that turnips spoiled, so I was... I wish... I've never wanted to be in a game more than to be in this shitty town watching this shitty mayor scoop rotten turnips out of his locker at the train station. turnips out of his locker at the train station. Like, what could have helped you build faith in your town less than seeing the mayor like, oh, this is

disgusting. What have I done? What have I done? All those tens of thousands of, like, this is what the city's money is going. No wonder the Resetti Center isn't done yet. You're literally just, like, letting our money rot in a train station locker. Oh, Animal Crossing.

I love you. My name is Justin McElroy, and I know the best game of the week. My name is Dave Tack, and I know the best thing of the week. My name is Christopher Plant, and I know the best thing of the week. My name is Russ Froschig, and I know the best game of the week. He lives next to someone. Think about that for a second. He lives in a house next to other houses. It's an apartment, so it's actually like I'm bordered by many apartments.

Think about that. Think about that wake-up call. I'd rather have Robin Williams in the apartment adjacent doing the good morning Vietnam. Hey, how's it going? I'm a doctor. My daughter's Zelda? I'm the pits. So, big week in gaming

and we've got a lot to talk about this week. I've been playing some fun stuff, some enjoyable games. Maybe you should go first then. I would like that actually, that would be nice. Let me remember what the thing was that I was gonna talk about. Ah yes, the best family tree of gaming 2013 belongs to

the Rogues, I guess I'll call them. The Rogues, I guess I'll call them. The Rogue Legacy family of adventurers in the hit indie PC game Rogue Legacy. Now, am I alone in having played Rogue Legacy? Yeah, I wanted to play it, but it's PC only only and i only got a mac in this piece i hope that when games like rogue legacy are released that microsoft counts it as like the massive failure that it is uh that that these game this game is not on their their platform because it is i mean microsoft i mean it's no of course but they're not getting like a slice of that you know they're not this isn't on their marketplace right um so rogue legacy is here uh it's similar to

a castlevania game uh if you can if you can imagine that a very difficult castlevania game where the castle regenerates every time you play and each time you start a new run on the castle regenerates every time you play. And each time you start a new run on the castle, you're actually the descendant of the character that just played through. So just to give you sort of an example of what it might look like, I make a run at the castle. I've got a barbarian, let's say. So he's really tough, but he doesn't hit as hard as some of the other classes. He has one magic spell that is assigned to him that he can use.

And all this is randomly generated. And you have basically three different children to choose from. He makes a run on the castle. He collects a lot of gold gold but doesn't do much else okay the he dies he's killed on like a spike trap let's say and then you're it is sad and then you're taken back to the title screen and you start again and you're given a choice between one of his three kids each one will have a different class uh they have traits uh that affect things positively or negatively, like color blindness, for example, which makes the whole screen gray. Oh, that's not funny.

No. A vertigo, which makes everything upside down, which sucks and doesn't happen a lot. Or, like, dwarfism. So they're smaller. They hit just as hard and everything, but they're smaller. That lets them get into some tight spots are they craftier no no they're they and no no they're not craftier they can't like they're not running the realm no no no no no tyrian influences here they're just they're just smaller uh and you choose between one of these three kids, and you inherit all of the...

There are some stuff that's permanent on each run that you collect. You collect runes that lets you augment your skills. You can collect skill upgrades. Collect armor. Can you collect zunes? No, there's no zunes in the castle. If you're going to interrupt, please just try to make it funny. That's all I ask. Just one it funny. That's all I ask.

Just one solid joke. That's all I need. I'd hate to kill you and have your kid take over your spot on the podcast. So all that stuff is passed down to the next generation, as well as all the gold you collected on the previous run. next generation as well as all the gold you collected on the previous run so that gold you have to spend on new equipment stat upgrades uh upgrades to classes new classes uh uh there's a and and the gold that you don't use is actually taken from you as soon as you walk into the castle it's charged at the gate so you uh you know you have to spend it all or you're

gonna lose it okay so here's my question because i love i love roguelikes this definitely sounds like a roguelike it is so what are the things roguelite they call it oh so that's a good point actually that addresses what i'm about to talk about is one of the things i like about roguelikes which i realize that a lot of people don't like is that you start pretty much from scratch every time you play and the reason i like it is because it creates this infinite new experience loop um where you never really beat a game you're just essentially getting better at it um it sounds to me like because there's so much that carries over and unlocks that eventually you get to a point where pretty much everything is unlocked and it's just a matter of just like plowing through the final boss. There is, let me say this, there's so much to unlock.

I mean, to give you an example, there are 75 levels of health you can increase. levels of health you can increase and 75 I believe 75 levels of love 75 levels of belief no 75 levels of like the percentage

of times you get a critical hit it's very much about choosing the path you want to take like for example even with the armor you buy new armor but it has weight to it so you have to take. Like, for example, even with the armor, you buy new armor, but it has weight to it, so you have to spend money to upgrade your basically

armor class, like how much armor you can carry with you. So there's so, so, so much that you can unlock and upgrade that it's not really like, well, I've got everything now, and now I'm going to make a run at the castle. I mean, it's very much, there are four sort of central sections. There's the main castle you start out in.

There's a place called Maya that's sort of the light area that's above you. There's a forest that's always to one side of the main castle. And then there's a land of darkness that's below the castle. Each one of those is harder than the main castle and then there's a land of darkness that's below the castle each one of those is harder than the central castle so the progression is very much you know play the castle over and over and over again until you can finally oh i get it finish the boss of the castle and then you can start making your way into the forest and you play the forest over and over and that's what you're focusing on interesting so you and there's a boss at the end of each of the sections, so it really does require you to, and in each section there's a new,

there's new enemies that have new attack patterns, and tons of new stuff for you to learn. It does seem to me like essentially, not like it's a free-to-play game and you're paying to win, but essentially it's not super skill centric in that you can you know what i mean i'll hop in because i i like rust i i prefer something like spelunky or even binding of isaac where it's like a full reset because i feel like i'm progressing because of skill right well with a lot of free to play games or rogue lights that

i it's hard for me to get into them because all i think every time i get an upgrade is like am i actually getting better at this game or is this game just making itself easier by the values just being like tilted in that favor but having played some of rogue legacy it seems like a really comfortable in between for two reasons and one is like justin's saying you can kind of one it's difficult so you do have to have skill just yeah it's hard yeah and two you're kind of adjusting your family line in a way that you have to have a skill in how you do that um but the the third thing which is kind of related that i really like about the game is the story matches the gameplay. Like, what you're really doing is grinding, which drives me crazy about these types of games,

where you're just trying to, you know, not just get better, but also unlock as much as possible. But this whole story of family lines kind of softens the blow of the grinding because you feel a weird connection to all the characters and like you want one to make it as far as it can you want to see what its children are going to look like um i know in that way i think i think the story as little as there is really benefits the entire game the other thing that I think helps soften the blow of paying to win or what have you is with each run, you have to pick a class. And you actually don't get to pick. You have three different options

that have been sort of randomly rolled for you. How many classes are there? God, like, I haven't even unlocked all of them. There's a barbarian Who's super strong, there's an assassin That's crafty Or, you know, does more critical hits And is a little bit faster It can also turn into a puff of smoke to avoid certain things

There's a mage That's focused on the magic spells That can switch between spells There's a lich king That is really interesting Because he starts with really low health and then with every kill his health increases so his max health increases um but there's a bunch essentially there's a lot and and it and it's very and the class that you pick and the class you can depend on or the class that you uh you know go with into the castle really dictates how you're going to approach

that run at the castle. There's a miner, for example, that knows where all the- Like a little kid, you mean? No, no. Well, I guess they're all kids. No, they're not kids. They're like adults.

There's a miner with an E who has really low health and really low magic, but all the coins that he collects, he gets like 30% more treasure for each pickup. So it's like, okay, if I got a miner, I know what this runs about. It's about finding as much treasure as I can. And there's so many things in the,

like there's fairy chests that have runes in them and those are basically like challenge rooms where it's like get through this really trap heavy room without taking damage or kill everybody in this room that's really that's like jam-packed with enemies and taking it on is very much sort of a risk reward question of well i'm i can do this but it might cost me so much that I'm going to have to abandon my dream of making a run at the boss this go. Because if I do this room, I'm just not going to have the health to get through it. So you're making those sorts of decisions every time you play,

which helps keep it super varied and makes every run really interesting. And myself, I'm not a big fan of the roguelike that sort of starts you out to zero every time. And that's I think what's attracted me so much to Rogue Legacy is it is skill-based. You do need a lot of practice to

get good at it, but you always have something to show for your run. Yeah, you're not like, every death isn't like a crushing defeat that sets you back to zero. Exactly, exactly. And now, interestingly, it does get to a point where to upgrade anything,

like I'm at a point now where to upgrade any of my skills, to buy anything, to get any armor, I need at least 1,000 gold coins. And I know that metric doesn't mean anything to you, but it's a decent amount. If I don't get a thousand gold coins in that run, then I don't get anything, which does sort of force you to,

okay, you've got to at least be good enough to get the amount of coins you need to upgrade. It's a really cool game. I think it's 15 bucks. You can buy it from their website. Here's what I'm waiting for, Vita. This sounds like such a good Vita game. I think it's 15 bucks. You can buy it from their website. Here's what I'm waiting for. Vita. This sounds like such a good Vita game.

It would be great. Yeah. It would be a great Xbox 360 game. Just like put it on your platform. I don't know. Maybe it'll come to indie games. That's not going to happen. That's not going to happen.

They don't care anymore. Okay. But yeah, Rogue Legacy is really, really, really fun. I wrote some dumb fan fiction about it on Polygon. I'm so sort of obsessed with it.

How will people find that? Just go to Polygon.com. It's mine, so I keep it pinned for longer because I wrote it. What's the title of the piece, though? I think it's Opinion, the something, something. I don't know. Plant right there. Okay.

The Legacy of the Rogues. The Legacy of the Rogues. Your family. Wow, that's great. Legacy of the Rogue family. Search engine opposition. Hey, can you do me a favor and shut the hell up you don't need search engine optimization when you the managing editor

could just keep it pinned to the top of the site uh good point okay um i'll go next if no one feels obliged to go next please um i want to give the best turning point of the week for me at least even though I realize this game is a few weeks old and that is for Last of Us we are finally going to talk about Last of Us get excited so how many of us have played Last of Us I have

that's everyone right so I should mention that I'm about 6 or 7 hours into the game I haven't beaten it I'm probably like a third based on what I'm about six or seven hours into the game. I haven't beaten it. I'm probably, like, a third based on what I'm hearing in terms of the length. And I will also say that apart from the intro, the first, like, ten minutes, which are quite good and pretty impactful, if maybe a ripoff of Dawn of the Dead, still really awesome and well done,

the first five hours of the game are really bad. Like, really bad. To the point where I was like, I have no idea why people are excited about this game. It's dull. It's typical. These stealth sequences are, like, really basic and boring and linear. And I'm failing for no reason, etc etc at this point i'm like ready to quit on the game but like i'm seeing all these tens and like people are bonker jerks over it so

i felt like to be part of the zeitgeist the conversation i needed to play through more of it and there's a very clear turning point at least for me um there's a moment where you essentially i won't give any major spoilers but you essentially come to this like forested area outside of a small town and it was from there on out that the game really turned for me because i think uh the developers really take the um the handhold off and let you uh sort of go wherever you want and handle combat situations however you want. And the game is way, way bigger than I thought it was, at least in terms of the environments.

Like, you're dealing with, like, I don't know how you guys felt, but, like, I know Plant hasn't gotten to this point. I'm right at it. Okay, you're before it. You're before it. And I don't know how you guys felt, but, like, some of the action sequences that I've done are in the biggest environments. Environments that are almost as big as, like, a Gears of War map, a multiplayer map. Like, enormous for a single-player campaign.

And the amount of freedom and, like, control over that, like, realm. Like, what you're doing, how you're interacting with enemies how you're dealing with the situation like hiding behind a box as you're healing yourself and like there's a tense moment where the guy is like walking up on you uh is is really remarkable and and it really kind of codified why people really dig this game apart from the story which is obviously a big draw but um it's pretty innovative what they've done um with all the systems at work and you don't really see that in the first five hours so i would just say stick with it for people that um are kind of not happy with what goes on before

that i'm gonna keep playing it but it just drives me batshit with video games in general. I can't think of any other medium where people are like, just give it six hours. Just give it 20 hours. I completely agree. I think that's crap. Oh, my gosh. Even like a book, I feel like it's like after an hour, you're in it no matter what. You either know you're done with it or not.

It drives me crazy that I have to commit this much time in my life to something that generally isn't as enriching. I mean, hopefully this is, but. I would argue, first of all, I think, Rush, you're exactly right. The game starts amazing and then slides into something like mediocrity and then becomes really, really interesting.

But it's only after that stretch of time where they're sort of trying to tell you what to do. It's a tutorial. Confusing. Yes. And it is, in my experience, a five hour tutorial. Right. And it's also a super confusing and frustrating tutorial at times. But there is a moment, like you said, where they just let you go. They sort of assume that you know what's going on. And that's where the game gets great to me. Does it stay like that, Dave?

Yes, it absolutely does. Yeah, and it's fantastic. I know the point you're talking about. About halfway through, when they really take the wheels off i it it's fantastic and and i think what we're bumping up into is actually really interesting because i think it's a question of authorship versus expectation i guess you know you the people making this game know that they're working in a vocabulary that is not so dissimilar from one that's been worked in before.

They could have made the assumption that you, the player, are familiar with this gameplay vocabulary that they're using because it's, again, not that revolutionary. And I think in doing that, what they could have done is just really let you focus on the narrative of what they're doing. But again, I think that that limits the audience for the game, or at least that's the perception, right?

That just seems so silly to me when it's so complex to play a shooter at this point. Even with that five-hour intro, if you don't know how to play a third-person shooter, you're not going to learn how to play it with that game. There's no way in hell. Well, I would also say, I don't think, and to address Justin's point, it's important to, like, this doesn't feel at all like a third-person shooter to me, just because you're so weak and powerless with a gun. I mean, you're powerful, but not nearly the level of, like,

I'm a walking tank like you are in a game like Gears of War. You can decide to shoot at the wrong time and completely screw yourself. I think it's a mistake to think of it as a third-person shooter, although it looks and behaves like that. I think the game teaches you, based on how bad you are at shooting, that you shouldn't use it like that. I'd say Metal Gear is actually a better comparison. To clarify my point, if you are not fluent in the language of video games, I don't think this game is going to teach you

how to play it with a nervous cycle. No, this definitely feels like expert-level video game to me. Yeah, I had to bump it. I think of any game where I have to bump it i mean i i think of any game where like i have to bump it down to easy to enjoy it i've been playing video games for over two decades i mean if i have to bump your game down to easy to have fun like that's that's a pretty complex uh game that you've that you've created there and for me normal is like a real challenge and i'm

like a golden god at video games he's not kidding i mean it's really weird um this is another thing where um video game critic dick measuring drove me crazy and i think turned me off entirely to the game uh and i imagine a few other people where everything i saw the day that games reviews came out was if you didn't like it you were doing it wrong and you should be playing it on the hardest setting yeah and it's like great so not only was i doing it wrong and the reality is i should have been going easy i was getting bad advice from people who are psychopaths yeah i mean that's i it's that's an answer i never like hearing where it's like oh you're

not playing the game right if you're not playing on the hardest difficult like that just means the game isn't balanced correctly or just you're not playing it right yeah that's just well the the not playing it right is actually kind of an interesting question that i was i was having this conversation with with chris grant or our boss he said that he was bored by the combat because he was able to very methodically, systematically eliminate the enemies by exploiting the AI. Right, because he's a robot. Really taking his time and slowly eliminating them one by one. And he said it was boring.

And I had to make the argument for him, and I don't know that there's a right answer one way or the other, but is that a case where if you're bored by the way you're playing it isn't it fair i mean isn't it fair to design based on the idea that people won't want to play in a way that bores them it no i don't think so i think in this case the game um sort of assumes that you're gonna fuck up like sort of assumes that you're not going fuck up. Like, sort of assumes that you're not going to be Chris Grant robot perfectly calculating every percentage of visibility and taking out every guy super, super stealthy.

And I think the best moments of this game are when you fuck up because you're sort of having to deal with the chaos that happens because of that. That's the way I tried to play it actually is that I tried, I started stealth stealth and, and, and went methodically, but I didn't, my,

um, my gut wants me in any game like this to reload a checkpoint, but I made it a point when I was playing the last of us to, uh, to let it roll to when, when something happens, I wanted to be able to figure out a way to make my way out of that situation. So you kind of get both if you play it that way.

You get as much stealth as you can based on your skills, and you also get the combat. The problem that I had actually with playing it on normal was when I bumped up against the first difficulty spike, which was for me, and you guys probably got to this point. I don't know. Have we all finished it? No, no.

I'm only like six hours in. You know that first office building that you're trying to clear? I think it's the first time you actually run into clickers, which are these zombies that can hear you but can't see you. I know the sequence you're talking about, yeah. And if they hear you, they're going to come for you, and if they touch you, you're dead. They auto-kill you unless you have a shiv later in the game.

But I had to replay that section. When I was playing on normal, I had to replay that section literally like 10 times. It's infuriating. And it cannot, this game cannot hold up to it is not rogue legacy it cannot hold up to that kind of repeat viewing because you're not having jules baby play through it for you yeah exactly um i i do want to be it would be unfair to the game i think though to focus on just the mechanical elements because where i think it really sets itself apart is uh storytelling

there are beats in this game that are as good or better than god any game i've played before i mean there there are some things it does so well and so elegantly yeah um that that they really it shows like a level of faith in the player um i'd like to illustrate that with a little anecdote and i'm uh there are lots of little moments like this so hopefully i'm i'm you know there's plenty more to discover after i say this but um you i'm worried about spoilers now i'm not gonna spoil anything for you don't worry but if you decide that we shouldn't include it i won't but um there's a moment uh uh got close to midway through the game i guess not even uh too deep into it where you meet another uh couple survivors and one of them is a kid uh and he picks up a toy in a nursery.

It's like a robot and that he wants to keep with him. And his the his guardian says, you know, we only take what we need. You have to leave it kind of scolds him. So this and the kid drops the toy. And the kid drops the toy. So you see that scene happen, that cut scene ends, and everyone starts walking out of the room. As I'm walking out, I notice,

and this is not like the camera zoomed in on her. It's not like, you know, there was any noise to indicate. Nothing was glowing. I just noticed out of the corner of my eye, Ellie looking at the toy. And I waited for a second because I was like okay is what's gonna happen I mean something's gonna happen here because she's just kind of hanging out and I waited and I waited and I waited nothing happened and then I started to walk out of the room and as I was walking out of the room out of the corner of my eye I saw her pick up the toy and put it in her backpack.

And it was like, God, that would have been so easy to miss. You know, that would have been that was it was such a personal moment for me because it was it was it felt so organic. Of course, she wasn't going to pick it up while I was watching her. But when my back was turned she did it and like that kind of trust in the player to like invest the time and money into making a beat like that that maybe not everybody is going to see maybe most people won't see um really speaks a lot i think to the the care they took in the storytelling of the game i'm right there with you i took my headphones off for that whole thing but I'm sure it was really important

good podcast it's great keep going it's really really good especially in the second half it's really good it's interesting

though the point you bring up. I mean, would this game have been, as an overall idea, do you guys think it would have succeeded more if it was the sort of game that was easy enough that you could put it in the hands of a non-gamer and they could still sort of get what they were going for? It's a different reality. I don't know.

I'm going to try to think about that. I don't think don't think so i mean plan hasn't really gotten to a point that's like meant to be a gameplay challenge or at least gameplay interesting and i think the reason why this game succeeds apart from the story is because of the like constant minute second to second decisions that you're making uh during combat and by dialing down the difficulty to, like, a Gears of War level on normal, for example, it sort of takes all of that tension out and I think makes it a very different game. Part of what I like about the game is that there are definite periods of combat intensity or stealth intensity or sneaking intensity. of combat intensity or stealth intensity or sneaking intensity. And then there are also very deliberate periods of non-combat of small exploration.

I can do without the ladders, to be honest. They lean on those a bit. Literally. The ladders lean on things, right? that or lean on things right um and but the the game is also aware uh self-aware enough to to know that it's doing that uh too so it actually becomes um self-referential or referential um but yeah i that balance between the two i think is pretty great it's a it's a it better, is what I'm saying. Yeah.

And it continues to do so. Excellent. Well, that's the last of us. Shall we devolve into halftime? Yeah. Anybody have anything fun that happened this week? You know, I saw that White House down to celebrate the birth of our nation. How realistic would you say it was?

On a scale of, like, one to realistic? Yeah. I would say probably, like, I would say it is the most realistic action movie made this summer. Hmm. I think that's pretty fair. I can't think of any other action movie that was more realistic would you call The Heat an action movie? no I wouldn't

I wouldn't call anything by Paul Feig an action movie do you think that'll hold up after Pacific Rim? you know I'm not positive because I you know a inter-galaxy dimensional vortex could open in the ocean tomorrow,

and suddenly I'd be a liar. Sounds like a big spoiler. Sounds like the trailer. But yeah, it's good. Channing Tatum, looking good. Jamie Foxx is our president. You know what I liked about this movie? It's that it's shamelessly political political which all of his movies are the guy who made independence day and day after

tomorrow but it is just it is the obama fantasy of like this guy gets elected and he's like young and you know full of big ideas and then he doesn't really do anything. But then he has a big idea to pull all of the soldiers out of everywhere in the Middle East. And those weapon industry people, they're not for it. And then White House down. That sounds like a huge spoiler. Now we know the motivation. Welcome to the first five minutes of this movie when they cue you into everything. Wait, are you telling me that White House goes down?

The White House goes down. Here's a great spoiler. One of the characters, the hacker, is, do you know the really creepy people from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Yeah. The milky guy is the, like, lead hacker of the movie, and he does great. There are a lot of great character actors in this movie.

That's why you should go see it. That's all. That was my weekend. I saw one movie. I went back to hibernation, and then I woke up and went to work. I set off fireworks. Lucky you. That's cool.

I did that too. They were lame though. We went and got a $25 multi-pack of fireworks. Those are always, yeah. And all of them were like friendship fountain. And it's just like, hey, some sparks come out of a box. I like to run through those. Do you?

That's fun. Yeah, like around like four or five. Run through the sparks. Just feel alive. My skin tingles with the possibility of danger. Do you spell your name? In what? In the air? No, that's a sparkler.

As I'm running? J-U-S-T-I-N! Obviously, I'm in something. I'm so sorry. The spark fountains. You put them on the ground and light them and they're just ejecting. Dave, you come from the land where fireworks were invented. It's true. Ohio? China, right?

He's from China. No, Ohio probably has fireworks out the ass, right? We do. Phantom fireworks is from here. They're really big. Are you jaded? You had some unfortunate incidents with fireworks in the past in Ohio. That Scott town, was that

Ohio? It was Virginia. I might have been here. Was that Ohio? I thought it was Virginia. It might have been here. I don't know. I want to hear a great story about someone in Michigan who's stupid and they went to Ohio and they messed everything up. What? So in Michigan.

Oh, God. Chris Plant is a, what are they? Ohio State Okies? You're an Okie? Shut up. Anyway, he hates Michigan. So we should couch that story with this. Michigan people are dumb anyway.

So they don't have the fireworks, right? They're illegal. So you have to go into Ohio to buy your fireworks. But Michigan people are too stupid to be allowed to cross state lines. So this guy from Michigan goes into one of the giant fireworks tents. Wait, they're in a tent? Yeah, they're in a big tent. And it's been very hot and dry.

Oh, no. And he lights a cigar. And the person's like, don't do that in slow motion. And the guy's like, oh, this? So he throws it. I've done that. He just throws it and lights the entire place up. Okay.

It explodes. Okay. He's dead. He died. He died. Did anyone else die? I can't confirm how many people died, but I do know he died. That sort of makes it hard to make fun of.

No, it's an Ohio story. Basically, anything that happens that's tragic in Ohio and Florida, you can make jokes about it. Because it's like the Darwin Awards. But Dave Tack's from Ohio. He could have known that guy. He's from East Ohio. He could have been born in that fireworks tent. Dave Tack, were you born in that fireworks tent?

I, yes. Do you guys know a guy that'll sell you illegal fireworks? Like, dirty stuff? Oh, I know a guy. Like an M-80? Yeah, like the... I get you one. You need an M-80? I need a Roman candle as well. I like those. Are those illegal? That shoots

things out the end and makes me feel like a wizard. You hold it and it makes me feel like a wizard. You hold it, makes you feel like a wizard. Magic coming out of your wand, you feel like a wizard. Happy birthday, America. I'm your wizard king. Dave Tack, what'd you play this week? Well, I've been playing, other than Animal Crossing, three things. So I played The Last of Us.

I'm wrapping up Dishonored, which I never did. Great game. Yeah. And also because it was on PlayStation Plus and I'd never gotten around to it, I've been playing Deus Ex Human human revolution all of those games zzzz what you're crazy that game was boring i didn't like that game i have i'm not super far into it uh you bought yet no no because i'm still learning and which is actually what i wanted to talk about segue um the uh all three of those games happen to be turn out to be sort of stealthy. And I have I think I have finally figured out after many years of playing stealth games, what might be the best way to start playing a stealth game. Because usually because I like stealth. First of all, I understand that lots of people don't. And that's fine. But I would rather, if given the option, do the stealthy thing, sort of not be seen if I don't have to, choke somebody instead of stab somebody.

And I always tend to finish a game without doing that because I never quite figure out the stealth mechanic. without doing that because I never quite figure out the stealth mechanic. Sure. And having played three of these back-to-back, simultaneously, whatever, I started to realize that what the best way to approach a stealth game might be. Wait, is that your best? Yes. The best way to approach a stealth game. Got it.

Might be to start by poking at it by figuring out exactly where you need to be next to a clicker in the last of us before the clicker sees you you know because you might play that part 15 times and not know why you died every time or to figure out what somebody's line of sight is in dishonored orored or all of that. And it never occurred to me. I always just guessed and felt really tense for, you know, a decade and a half of playing stealth games. But now I just realize if I spend the beginning of the game poking at the box and figuring out. Yeah.

Scoring out. Right. Right. Breaking, figuring out what doesn't work and what stealth is that I don't have to walk around wondering what I'm doing all the time. And I wondered if you guys ever did that or if you like stealth. Here's the thing. I play stealth games like real life where I only have one life.

And if I get spotted and die, I throw the disc out the window. So I've never done that. Wow. That's intense. Yeah. I like games where I don't have to do that. Like, what is it? Ninja?

Way of the Ninja? Shadow of the Ninja? What is it? Mark of the Ninja? Mark of the Ninja? Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. Mark of the Ninja.

And I felt that way with Dishonored, too, where I didn't... There were enough clues or skills I had where i didn't have to spend a lot of time learning where the boundaries were that it drives me crazy in a game where i have to like figure out how they coded it to enjoy the game so the second i have to do that and that's why i've had so much trouble with the beginning of last of us it just drives me nuts um but apparently it gets away from that so yeah well not really visibility is still pretty important in last of us um and knowing like when you're going to be spotted and not is very important um i agree that uh it definitely helps to know the boundaries but i also agree like plant was saying that games that make it very clear for whatever reason,

whether it's through visual cues or HUD elements or whatever, tend to make stealth a lot more approachable for people that don't ordinarily play stealth games. So developers should do that. I loved in Dishonored and if there's a game that has executed on this better I don't know what it is but I

loved in Dishonored how there was a moment where things would go sideways and when it went sideways you found that there was another perfectly good game there I mean it was just another you know it was not punitive it was not bad it was just sort of like well this is what we're doing now i guess like and that's felt very realistic right

you wouldn't be able to and of course realism is so stupid in a game where you teleport five feet and you have a heart that talks to you but it it felt very true to the situation that like, well, I can't go back to my plan. I can't unfuck this. So I have to kind of keep pushing through. And I love that about Dishonored. I love that in games in general that have multiple layers where you think you're playing one type of game and it reveals itself to be another. I think that's why GTA has always been so popular. That idea of like i'm on a mission oh crap i screwed up suddenly i'm in a police chase something else is happening and to get away from this now i'm going to go jump off

a bridge or i'm going to be on a boat where the type of game that you're playing is constantly evolving it's never what you expected only in gta can you get the visceral thrill of leaping from one middling gameplay experience to yet another. No, they're actually all better because the traditional game is just, hey, can you drive from point A to point B? It'll take you about 30 minutes and you have to shoot somebody. See, this is why

Saints Row is better because it's can you drive from point A to point B and it turns out that halfway through your car it's a dinosaur. And there's a tiger in it. And it's got a giant cock. Yeah, see, I like both. I like the idea of rolling with the punches,

being stealthy, and then just playing it out, like I said, with The Last of Us. And then the complete opposite of that, which is the way I've been playing dishonored uh is completely stealthy and uh it means i don't it means that the only time i ever get to engage in combat by my own design is when i screw up and then i just start fighting people because yeah yeah i agree because that's how you get your rocks off you guys want to hear my my thing of the week yeah i'm ready do you know do you know what this week is it's july the five year anniversary

of the app store really that's yeah oh i'm sorry that's much more important than... No, I was surprised. What's your superlative? It's the best anniversary of the week, and it's beating the 30th anniversary of the Famicom. Because, don't worry, we're going to come back to it when it's released in America. Because that's what mattered to me, because it was the year of my birth. Oh, my God.

I'm going to be 30. How old are you now? 27. So in this fantasy reality, this show lasts another three years. Oh, great. Well, hey, you know what? That's okay. As long as I last another three years.

That's good. So the App Store, five years. How amazing is that that before that, there wasn't even an App store on your iPhone. There was no app store. You just had apps. And then one day, you have some really mediocre Njimoko games to play wherever or whenever you want. I don't remember this.

So the app store launched after the iPhone launched? After the iPhone. Really? Yep. How did you get apps? You had the apps. What does get apps? You had the apps. What does that mean? You had the apps. It came with the apps. Right. And there was a point at which

Apple was just saying, make web apps. Web apps. That would be fun. And then they came out with the App Store. Yeah. And then everything changed. And in those five years we've gone from NG MoCo, becoming what it is now. NG MoCo was a big deal back then and now man

they had such an opportunity and they wasted it every which way oh that being said they probably make way more money than they did then now uh yeah but they could have been huge what was it what was the they could have been like zynga level massive. And they also had like the hold on the whole achievement system and basically their lack of – I mean it seemed like Apple was pretty cool with that until they didn't innovate on it in any way. Well, no. Apple just pretty much did their own thing. Yeah.

And one of them. What was the big – what was the first – there were a handful of NJ Mocha games that were like that. Rolando. Rolando. That was the big first one, right? And there NG Mocha games that were like that. Rolando. That was the big first one, right? And there was also the Doctor one where you could cut. Oh, yeah. Which is still a great game.

Which one? I don't know. Yeah. The Quix ripoff. It was like Quix. Kix. Q-I-X, that game. I forget what the NG Mocha version was called.

Yeah, no, they had really good games. They were like the first legit developer trying to make good mobile games, and it really, I mean, at least one of the first. And now we have so, so, so many. Yeah. But now we have XCOM and Limbo. Well, let's name a mobile game that actually came out on mobile first before we start going down the list.

Oh, I mean, I just think that's impressive in general that you can port to it. Oh, yeah. I don't think that's so bad. Yeah. Okay, Drop 7. Drop 7. The best game of the last decade. Okay, you're a madman.

That's crazy. I've played it more than anything if we want to go by hours. That's a lie. You got a problem. That's not a lie. My stepmom has played Farmville more than anything. we want to go by hours that's a lie my stepmom's played Farmville more than anything it doesn't make it a great game yeah the

do you feel it's funny I saw someone comment they made a bunch of games free on the anniversary and I saw someone comment that it was a great way to mark five years of devaluing games by making some of the best games free. And I think I it's not a completely hollow criticism. I mean, I think that like for all the good the App Store has done, I think it's I don't know.

I think it's made it kind of hard financially speaking to make a lot of really worthwhile – not worthwhile, but more expansive games, let's say. Yeah, absolutely. Like you can't – I think that's crazy. What? I think that's absolutely insane. You can't – I mean selling a game for – No, no one's tried.

Are you crazy? The XCOM is like the first game where somebody is trying to put a decent price marker and a level of quality that matches that's okay but then you could argue like square does that all the time what what else square no square marks their things up like crazy i know square sells 20 games it should be five there are five anywhere i'm just saying the vast majority of games and the games that are successful are either one or three dollars when on any other platform pc mac you name it uh they would at least be like five or ten and like x-com is not even a great example because this is a game that has recently been established as being a 50 or 60 game right that's not true anymore either because it's

constantly on sale for 25 to 30 dollars but you make the, how much are they selling it for on mobile? It's $20. And it's a smaller version of the game. What did they change, by the way? I think it's like a third of the maps or something. Oh, yeah. I just think

there's a long way to go, and I think the devaluing thing is a tired argument that was pushed out by companies like nintendo that were unwilling to move no i think there are indie developers um that struggle with like like there are like interesting indie games that should be sold for more than a dollar but the only way to get the attention of people is to sell them for a dollar like i honestly believe that yeah i i just think i think it's definitely changing and i think it will continue to change as more things come out on that platform and as that platform expands yeah i think once it shows like once apple wakes up and and get figures out a good way to get

their games on that television you'll see a very different understanding of what value is and what prices should be for those games. The crazy thing is how much has changed in the five years because of that platform. You know what bums me out, though, about how much has changed? What? Not nearly as many fart apps as there used to be. Or lighter apps or flashlight apps.

I saw Peter Molyneux's interview on Game Informer about fart apps. It is superb. Really? It's really good. He writes them. The other thing is, with the devaluing, I will say, even if it is true, which I personally don't believe, even if it is true, which I personally don't believe, the fact that all of these games actually had a place to come out and all these indie developers have become as successful as they are,

which who knows if they would have on any other platform. You're still talking about like 1% of games. 1% is better than no percent. I mean, there have been a lot more success stories on that platform. Wait, 1% is better than no percent? I'll have to check on a lot more success stories on that platform. Wait, 1% is better than no? I'll have to check on that math. I'm not sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, there are a lot of people who wouldn't be successful without an open platform like it is. That's true. That's all. Three guys in a room. And all of Rovio. Yeah, but it is definitely has changed the the um gaming uh space for the better i would say uh democratization of game publishing pretty much started on the app store and uh has spread well i guess steam was before the app store but you know app store made it like mainstream and popular and

and uh i think we're all better off with it how's that for a nice little wrap up i love it it was the best wrap it was so good it was the best wrap up as a result uh i'm gonna give the award to russ fresh dick yeah best wrap up yeah you did it but it was for my thing yeah but i trumped you no you didn't i did i won the whole week so proud of you right now russ i believe i always believed in you and i believe you listening't. I did. I won the whole week. So proud of you right now, Russ. Oh my god. I always believed in you and I believe in you listening at home. I believe that you've spent another hour-ish of your life listening to us and

I certainly appreciate you joining us. If you want more, you can go to Polygon.com I hear the cooperatives are coming back for season two. Is that going to drop this week? Monday. It'll drop Monday. Monday. Oh, I'm excited.

And we've got so much more content on the site. Lots of good stuff for you to enjoy. So go lap it all up. It's polygon.com. You can follow us at Polygon, Facebook slash Polygon, YouTube slash Polygon, Tumblr,

or polygon.com.tumblr.com. And so many other places that I can't remember right now. But most of all, we appreciate you listening to our podcast. We wish you'd go and rate it, subscribe to it, and tell all your buddies, your friends, that there's this great thing, this amazing, life-changing podcast. And while you're there,

you might want to look at this new podcast called Sawbones, which is on the iTunes app store. I'm not familiar with it. Yeah, it's excellent. It's this adorable married couple and they talk about medical maladies and oddities. Medical mysteries? It is. Well, that

too. I mean, it is superb. I hear they come out on Fridays just like our show. And their episode this week is about plague medicine. What? Plague Cool. Superb. I hear they come out on Fridays just like our show. Yeah. Their episode this week is about plague medicine. What? Plague medicine? You know a lot about this show.

Wow. I'm looking forward to it. I'm on it. So thank you so much for listening to our podcast, We're the Besties. We'll join us next week. We'll join you next week to talk about games. Our only listeners. Make sure to join us again on Friday for the Besties. Because shouldn't the world's best friends

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