The Big Flop - How O.J. Simpson's Memoir Ended Up in Book Jail with Boze and Carl Tart | 43

Episode Date: July 8, 2024

You know the Bronco chase, the trial and the glove, but do you know …the book? In 2006, O.J. Simpson teamed up with prominent publisher, Judith Regan, to make a killing from his controversial life story. With the help of a ghostwriter, they created a “hypothetical” tell-all book about the actual murders O.J. stood trial for. Thousands of copies were printed and a companion TV special was filmed. But, when news of the unsavory book surfaced, there was an uproar, leading to the cancellation of the project and a grizzly amount of lawsuits. However the story takes a surprising turn when the family of one of the victims earns the right to release the book themselves.Ericka Bozeman aka Boze (Boze vs the World) and Carl Tart (Comedy Bang! Bang! Grand Crew) join Misha to unpack the story of OJ's book, "If I Did It."Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. [♪THEME MUSIC PLAYING—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME SONG PLAYS—WONDERY PLUS THEME S In late April 2006, writer Pablo Fenves gets an unexpected call from his former colleague from the National Enquirer, Judith Regan. Judith wants Pablo to help her pen a highly confidential project, a book that will rock the foundation of American Culture, O.J. Simpson's confession to the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman. What? Could this be for real?

Well, Judith explains, it's a fictional account of a real-life event with hypothetical details about how one would commit a murder if they committed the murders from the viewpoint of the only suspect in the case, but who's been found not guilty. It doesn't make complete sense, but just go with it. Pablo doesn't know what to say. He's not interested in selling a lurid, sensational fantasy,

but he would be interested in getting O what to say. He's not interested in selling a lurid, sensational fantasy, but he would be interested in getting OJ to confess. After all, he thinks he's guilty. Is it roundabout? Confusing? Ridiculous? Sure, but it might be the only way. This book could officially close the chapter on this whole ugly incident and skyrocket Pablo and Judith's career in the process.

Right? Wrong. MUSIC Simpson agreed that he would write a book about the killings. Some people say maybe it's blood money. Is he really going to confess? Is he going to tell the truth? After the victim's families protested, the book's publication was suspended. Should we not cover horrible people and horrible experiences?

We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and AtWillMedia, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time. I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and author of Don't Cross a Gay Man, a coloring book for the petty bitch and all of us at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today we're talking about O.J. Simpson's If I Did It,

a book that came back from the dead. On our show today, we have a true crime legend, aka Erika Bozeman, aka Boz. Welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. We also have on the show a comedian and actor, most recently on the show Grand Cru, give it up for Carl Tart. Welcome to the show, Carl. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk about this subject seriously because everybody always wants me to joke about it.

But today I'm getting down to the nitty gritty of what happened that night. I'm just playing. I'm just playing. I was like, okay. So Orenthal James Simpson died on April 10th of 2024. Like it or not, OJ is history, and as you know, it is History Month at Wondery. So today, instead of talking about the murder trial for which he is most famous, we're

going to talk about his supposed tell-all confessional book, If I Did It, and how not even Double Jeopardy could save O.J. from the ultimate self-own. So, Carl, you are a frequent guest on the Comedy Bang Bang podcast where O.J. also turns up regularly. Did you ever cross paths? No. No, I never met O.J. But I, why I bravely started doingJ. But I... But I...

Why I bravely started doing that on the show, because I know how certain people feel about OJ. He got back on Twitter when he got out of jail. And he would make these videos every day. He would just be rambling on, like, nothing was wrong in his life. And OJ was such a fascinating character to me, because he didn't just disappear.

And this episode today is about one of those examples of like, yo man, you just beat the system. Get out of here, go somewhere. Like, go away. Like, we don't want to hear from you no more. And he said, nope, I got to stay in the limelight. So I was like, I'm going to do O.J. on the show. So just to be clear, we are here to talk about his book,

not the whole story of the murders and the trial, but we do have to cover some basics. So, between the late 60s and the mid-80s, O.J., nicknamed The Juice, is one of the best football players on the planet. He wins the Heisman and sets all sorts of college and NFL records. Then he has a few choice acting gigs. He becomes a spokesperson for Hertz Rental, famously running through airports and commercials. Most notably, he's in the Towering Inferno, Roots, the miniseries,

and the Naked Gun comedies. Did you see any of those? Yeah, hell yeah. SawARREN Uh, yeah. JAY Saw all of them. DARREN Yeah. For decades, he is beloved by all. And then, O.J.'s entire career screeches to a halt in 1994 when he's accused of murdering his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman. Now, here's a question. Do you remember where you were

when the infamous Bronco chase happened? Yeah, this is Pascagoula, Mississippi in 1994. I'm five years old. And I remember my grandma coming and speeding and picking me up. And she going back home and running the turn on CNN. And she did that same thing every day when the trial was going on too.

Can I tell you guys one of my favorite little tidbits from the end of the Bronco chase? Yeah. When they were chasing him in the Bronco, this is going on forever. And then finally, when he pulls over and all the police surround him, and at one point they were at his house, and they saw that in O.J.'s house,

there was all these pictures of himself, like, everywhere, like, giant pictures. Because O.JJ loved himself. That man loved himself so much. And so they were like, hey, OJ, people love you. Your fans love you. Everybody loves you. Like, they played to his ego to get him to stop the chase and it works. I just always thought that was so interesting. That is really interesting. I need to put some pictures of myself up in my house.

Yeah, I was like, my thing's looking a little bare back there. Yeah. Well, you remember or at least have heard of the glove that supposedly wouldn't fit and that OJ has found not guilty in 1995. Can you guess how many people tuned into the trial? Let's see, it's 1995. There's not as many people as there are today.

So let's say 30 million. I was gonna say like 20 million, but I'm really bad at guessing any number. You know when you had to like guess how many skittles were in the jar back in the day? I would say something crazy, so I don't know. Well, if you wanna hear crazy crazy, it was $95 million. Wow.

Wow. $95 million. The art of TV is failing. I know. We just gotta get some drama back on TV, everybody. Really? So, again, O.J. is found not guilty in a criminal court, but the families of the victims believe the verdict is wrong.

Even if O.J. won't go to jail for the murders, they want to find some way to hold him accountable, so they take him to civil court where he is found liable in 1997. The jury awards the two families of the victims, the Goldmans and the Browns, $33.5 million. Nice. But O.J. argues he doesn't have any assets to give, snubbing his nose at the families and saying they, quote, don't deserve one red cent. He adds, if it means that I have to sit on my butt or sit on a golf course for the rest of my life and not make one extra penny, I'll do that. Yeah, he knew they were going to reach in and take that money. You make a dollar, we're taking half.

So O.J. moves to Florida, which, intended or not, has the benefit of keeping his remaining assets protected from the court order, including his pensions. He makes good on his promise to play golf all day, and even when he's ordered by a judge to give his gold Rolex to the Goldman's, it turns out to be a fake. CARLOS LAUGHS Shady. So by the mid-2000s,

the public fascination with O.J. has died down a little. He could just lay low, like you said, Carl, go take a nap. But no, he decides to reenter full force. Do you know how he reintroduced himself? Was it called Juiced? Yes! The sketch prank show that he had made,

where he was going around as himself, like making fun of things that were case-related. Yes. So it was like a punked style show that was very popular at the time. This sounds horrible. Yeah. Do I need to watch this? It sounds horrible, but like in a I might need to spectate kind of way.

So, Bo, there were pranks like O.J. pretending to be a used car salesman offloading a white Bronco with a bullet hole in it. No, no! Misha, my mouth is, jaw is on the floor the entire time. I have never heard of this and this is horrible. Like who is in the boardroom working this out? Well, Bose, I'm here to tell you that we're givers here on The Big Flop and you asked

and you shall receive. Let's watch a clip of OJ in old person makeup calling a game of bingo for seniors. So we invented a character named Carl. Carl was born over three hours. Makeup made me look like I was an 81 year old. Take a look. My name is Carl. I just went to Florida.

And boy, my arms tired. 96 or 69. Oh, I'm sorry. That was so painful. That was awful. First of all, why did his name have to be Carl? Uh... That part sucks.

But also, that's such a bad sketch. So bad. And you know what else I hated about it too, is that you could just tell by his demeanor he thought he was so funny in this. He was like, I'm really about to get... Don't you hate that? He thought he was so funny. Also that undercover boss level makeup. Yeah. It took three hours of makeup. No, man. That thing was about to come off your head.

That party city ass ball cap craziness. I hate it. Well, only one episode was ever released. So it might not surprise you that the producers of Juiced are also responsible for the bum fights and backyard wrestling videos. And if you don't know what those are, please do not look them up.

Oh my God. Yeah, I've seen enough of those in middle school. Yeah. What other wacky things could OJ do with his notoriety? Go to jail. Go on vacation, just away from society. To him, there was always a new audience to turn around, right? Like he believed that he was worthy of worship

and he was going to pursue that by any means necessary, which is like so corny. Get over yourself. Become a televangelist. Honestly, that would have worked, Carl. Christians, look, we'd be forgiven anything and everything. You say, you know, you would be put God first and then all your sins are forgiven no matter what they are. It would have worked.

He could have been a televangelist. Well, he has a different idea, and it comes in the form of a tell-all book. Now, the idea supposedly comes from this dude, Raffles van Exel, a Dutch entertainment consultant and guy who pops up in the weirdest stories. Like, Raffles has admitted to cleaning up the hotel room Whitney Houston died in before the cops came. But, of course, we have to say that he has not been convicted of any crimes and has not admitted to any wrongdoing. OJ's oldest daughter Arnelle claims Raffles came to her and was like, hey, what if your

dad wrote a book? The concept? O.J.'s semi-fictional account of how he would have committed the real murder of his ex-wife and her friend. Think of it as a multiverse, where O.J. can see into another dimension where he did kill two people. Again, Raffles hasn't confirmed this story or admitted to any wrongdoing,

but what do you think about that approach? Yeah, that to me is one of the dumbest things that anybody could do. There's no way you're not telling some of the truth here. Here's another question. Would it sell? 100%. It will be a New York Times bestseller.

Yes. Oh, I just feel like there's so much press around this that could be like, this is like a dumpster fire. But I love to spectate a dumpster fire, so I don't know. Well, exactly. And you have to remember, this is before social media, where people got to like do all their rage baiting, you know, on their phones.

I think this would have been huge. So, O.J. agrees, and he goes for it. Shopping the Book to Publishers. Officially, the book is being pitched by Lorraine Brooks Associates, O.J.'s daughter's company. Conveniently, that might keep those pesky victims' families from getting any of the money. Now, one of the people to receive the pitch is Judith Regan, a controversial but extremely successful publisher. Judith started her career working for the National Enquirer, and now, a few decades

later, she's built a publishing empire and has her own imprint at HarperCollins called Regan Books. Judith is also sort of famous for her relationship with Bernard Carrick, a 9-11 hero police commissioner who just happened to be married at the time. Wow. After the scandal, she moves to LA where she sets up shop hoping to turn her books into TV shows. So to really get a sense of the kind of book Judith gets involved with, let's play a game! So here are the rules. I'm going to ask you some questions, multiple choice, about

Judith Regan's catalog. Whoever Man, an American warrior's uncensored story about martial artist Frank Dux. Jean-Claude Van Damme plays Frank in the movie adaptation. What is the movie called? Is it A. Lionheart, B. Kickboxer. Or C, Bloodsport. C, Bloodsport. Ding, ding, ding! Fave move? No, I just used... I'm so shocked. I got that.

When you first started talking, I was like, what is Misha saying? And then you said Jean-Claude, and I was like, Bloodsport! Am I supposed to buzz in? Sorry, Carl. No, it's all right. Well, the winner does get a signed copy of If I Did It. Oh my God! Thank you.

Oh no! Give me another question! Second question. 2002's No Lifeguard on Duty, The Accidental Life of the World's First Supermodel is the origin story of which supermodel? Is it Lisa Fonsgraves, Janice Dickinson, or Gia Karangi? Buzz. Buzz.

Carl. Janice Dickinson. Ding, ding, ding. Of course, world's first supermodel. Although that title is disputed. God, I love Janice Dickinson. Same. I just followed her on Instagram like two weeks ago.

Oh my god, on TikTok, she does their review of model walks, and I love it. I watch those all the time. Oh, my God. On TikTok, she does their, like, review of model walks. And I love it. I watch those all the time. I love Janice. All right. One more. Which of these did Regan Books not publish? Was it A, snakes in suits when psychopaths go to work? B, Jose Canseco's juiced wild times, rampant roids, smash hits, and how baseball got big.

Or C, Jenna Jameson's, how to make love like a porn star. Buzz. Bose? I can't. I'm gonna go with the Jenna James one. I'm gonna say A. Well, I'm so sorry to say, neither one of you got this one correct,

but that's only because it was a trick question. She published all of them. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. You gotta give of them. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. You got to give us another of the above. So those are the kinds of books that she was into. I get it.

I want to know all the gossip. I want to know. I want to be as far away from it as possible, but I've got like cop to the wall. I'm all in. My name is Georgia King, and I am thrilled to be the host of And Away We Go, a brand new travel podcast on Wondry+, where we'll be whisked away on immersive adventures all around the world. Where we go, what we do, what we eat, drink, and listen to will all be up to my very special guests. We've got Ben Schwartz taking us

on a whirlwind trip around Disneyland. We'll eat a bowl of life-changing pasta with Jimmy O'Yang in Tuscany, Italy. And how do you feel about a spot of sugaring off with Emily Hampshire in Montreal? And away we go, we'll immerse you in some of the wonders of the world. We're gonna be seeing some yellows and vibrant oranges.

And the shoes clicking against the cobblestone. If you're looking to get somebody in the mood, have them look at the Chicago skyline. You can listen to And Away We Go exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Georgia, do you know what joy sounds like? I think I'm hearing it right now. So in 2005, when Judith gets the call from a lawyer claiming to represent OJ, she thinks she's being pranked. Excuse me, juiced.

But once she realizes it's a serious offer, she gets fired up. Judith agrees to pay OJ $1.1 million for both the book and an interview and pays about $600,000 of that as an advance. She hires an old colleague from her National Enquirer days, Pablo Fenves, to be O.J.'s ghostwriter. Pablo has actually crossed paths with O.J. before. He testified in O.J.'s trial. Wow. He lived near where the murder took place and heard Nicole's dog barking while watching the news, which helped the prosecution establish a timeline of the killings.

And he, like Judith, believes O.J. is guilty. Oh, my God. And, dude, that was part of the marketing aspect of that. You know, like, that the writer was involved in the trial and actually testified, you know? So weird. It's so weird! Well, the plan is to call the book OJ Simpson. If I Did It, Here's How It Happened.

What do you think of that title? I mean, it's on the nose. It's on the nose. But before agreeing to publish If I Did It, Judith has two big stipulations that OJ agrees to. The first one, the money cannot go to OJ directly, and she's assured that it won't. That only his children will benefit. The money will be paid directly to Lorraine Brooks Associates, the company owned by his daughter Arnelle. Again, this has a convenient benefit for OJ because the families of the victims

can claim his earnings thanks to that civil trial. The second stipulation, OJ must sit for an on-camera interview for the deal to work. If OJ doesn't talk on camera, Judith feels he can always take back the seeming confession and say it's all something the ghostwriter came up with. Also, it doesn't hurt that the TV special where OJ seemingly confesses will make a big splash on its own and give the book some welcome publicity. So do you think America really wants more of OJ at this time?

The fascination has been so consistent that I think now that he's dead, it might be finally kind of dying down. No pun intended. I think also if they released it during a time where nothing was going on, like no gossip, no tea, like no drama, no nothing, and it was coming out during that period, it would just absolutely take over, you know?

But like me personally, do I want to listen to anybody lie to me for 300 pages? Not really. So News Corp, HarperCollins corporate deity, also happens to own the Fox Broadcasting Company, and Fox agrees to air the interview. Fox is stuck in last place ratings wise against the other three major networks. So even if people watch the interview and refuse to buy the book, they still win. The selling point of the book

is the chapter where O.J. describes the night of the crime. Now, before we read from it, do either of you know about Charlie? Charlie? Uh, I think I do. I don't. OJ claims he couldn't have done the murders by himself. He'd need help. So Pablo suggests they name this other person Charlie so they can move forward. Yes, yes, yes, I do, I do.

So apparently there was a lot of cocaine money owed by Nicole Brown Simpson and that guy, Charlie, was a mobster that was coming to collect the money. And OJ's like, I'm not paying any of her debts. She's free from him now in a way. She's dating other people and stuff like that. He's really, really upset about it. And he's like, I'm not paying nothing.

And so the guy, Charlie, is like, we got to go over to that house. And OJ's like, perfect, and I'll go. He got a call from one of the kids, been like, oh, mom's friend is here. Mom's friend Ron, and that made him go into a jealous rage or something like that. Now, would you like to hear an excerpt from the book? No, thank you.

No, thank you. Yes. Yes. So we're going to read from chapter six, The Night in Question. Charlie and OJ are about to break into Nicole's home, and to make this a little more interactive, I'd love your help. Bose, would you please play the part of Charlie? Okay. Carl, you'll be O.J. and Al Nere. Sweet. All right, let's go.

I don't like this. Let's go the fuck back to your house. You worry too much. What if she's with someone? She better not be. Not with my kids in the house. I reached into the back seat for my blue wool cap and my gloves. I kept them there for those mornings when it was nippy on the golf course. I slipped into them. What the fuck are you doing, man? You look like a burglar. Good. I reached under the seat for my knife. It was a very nice knife.

A limited edition. And I kept it on hand for the crazies. Los Angeles is full of crazies. Nice, huh? Check out that blade. Carl, I have not heard your O.J. impression before. It is too good. Thank you. So, it goes on like this, taking the reader through OJ and Charlie actually committing the murders, which is bonkers, right? See, excerpts like that make me go, no way. That's the dialogue, like, oh, look at this blade.

LA is full of crazies. That makes me go, okay, this is some BS. I also am of the mind that he couldn't have done it by himself, because he was an old-ass man by that time who played football in the 70s when it was its most brutal and they just had cotton swabs and shoulder pads. Well, while Pablo focuses on interviewing OJ and putting together the manuscript, Judith tries to rope the great Barbara Walters into interviewing O.J. for sweeps week. Now Walters, she's interested, but she can't make up her mind. She's concerned

that if I did it might, you know, completely tank her career. So while she drags her feet, Judith and Pablo's former employer, the National Enquirer, leaks the chapter describing the murder, essentially scooping their book. This is so National Enquirer and the fact that they both used to work there is hilarious. So funny. So Regan Books and News Corp, they can't wait. They need to release this book ASAP and get the interview done now before everybody loses interest.

Pablo advises Judith to scrap the interview with OJ, but she's made up her mind, and she's gonna do it herself. Now keep it in mind, Judith has been a TV host for Fox News, but she is not a police interrogator, she is not a criminal prosecutor, she doesn't even meet or talk to O.J. directly until the day she interviews him. But, she says, 53 years of life have prepared her for this event. Oh my god. Dude, that eye rolls me so hard because, like, okay, police interrogators are very, very good at

what they do. They have a lot of different tactics. Like, if somebody has control issues, they'll play good cop, bad cop to, like, make them relinquish control to the good person so they feel like they're in control even though they're both in on it. And I look at interrogations, like, all day, every day. And so the fact that she just walks in and is like, like, oh, my God, what a cornball. I'm mad.

Yeah. So, O.J.'s interview will be a two-parter, and it'll air the last week of November in 2006, with the book releasing two days later on the 30th. And this is where the shit hits the fan. The families of the victims, the Browns and Goldman's, are livid. And they rail against everyone involved, especially Judith Regan. Here's just a snippet of a letter from Fred Goldman, Ronald's father. Quote,

It is an all-time low for television. To imagine that a major network will put a murderer on TV to have him tell how he would murder the mother of his children and my son is beyond comprehension. If Fox believes their viewers want this kind of trash on television, they must not think very highly of their viewers. For reference, some of Fox's biggest shows in 2006 are Nanny 911, Cops, and Trading Spouses. Yeah. So. When they make these big specials, like for example, the Dahlmer one

that was very popular a while ago, they know that there's quote a publicity risk of the family coming in to Chapa. Like they don't care. They just take it anyway. So I love that Ron's family was like, hey, you pieces of shit. I love that. They didn't expect it.

Yeah. Bose, can I ask you something as a person who's an expert on this? Yes. I know this is going to sound crazy, but why would he be saying this stuff if he really did it? It feels like it's coming from a place of ego, which we know O.J. had a huge ego, but it feels like it's coming from a place of like, I'm going to toy with these people because they made my life a living hell.

It doesn't feel like he actually would commit this crime. I get what you're saying, in my opinion, because what you're doing is you're putting it in a world of rationality. You're putting him on the same playing field as us. But to me, OJ lives in a world of delusion. Like if we're over here in this little bubble in front of us, we all live there, he's in a little bubble all the way over here to the side

that doesn't even cross over with our bubble. And in his world, he's the best. Everybody loves him. You can't tell him otherwise. Did I do it? Did I not do it? It doesn't matter because you love me. So everything he does is going to be extremely irrational. Does that make sense?

That totally makes sense. And thank you for saying that. I knew I could get the great answer out of Bose. And Carl, there's a lot of people like that. They're everywhere. Tell me about it. I'm dating in LA. Well, News Corp, who again owns Fox and Regan Books, tries to salvage the project.

They offer to share profits from advertising with the victims' families. That also backfires. One of the family members says they're offered millions of dollars to keep our mouths shut. Fox denies that it made any improper payments of any kind. Then suddenly, the owners of Fox-affiliated channels across the country promise to boycott the OJ special. And that's too far. Too far. Enter Rupert Murdoch, CEO of News Corp, creator of Fox News, owner of multiple tabloids.

We know who he is. Murdoch doesn't usually quell scandals. He fans the flames, right? But with the affiliates taking a stand, he has to put out the fire. Ten days before the release of the book, Rupert Murdoch gives an extremely rare apology for green lighting if I did it and cancels the release of both the book and TV special. Okay. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Now there's a but. The book has already been printed. There are 400,000 copies sitting in a warehouse ready to ship, and now they'll have to be pulped. What would you do with 400,000 copies of a book that can't be released? Silk Road. Burn them. Have a campfire.

Make some s'mores. Okay. Well, with egg on her face, Judith just needs to get back and start brainstorming her next buzzy project. But she doesn't. She can't let it go. Bose, could you please read from what the New York Times refers to as Judith's unhinged eight-page defense

of the interview? Yeah. I took on this project with the belief that his life must be a constant torture, a kind of hell. And I wondered, in his confession, however he chose to state it, would he do his penance? Could he amend his life? Could he say he was sorry?

Oh, it hurts me to read this. It hurts. Yeah. I mean, do you agree with the characterization that this is unhinged? It's so unhinged. And you know what? It really strikes me that she can't believe this is happening. And it's like, how did you not think that this was going to happen? You know,

like, she thought it was her meal ticket. Yeah. Well, how do you think News Corp handles Judith? Oh, they fired that ass, don't they? She's out. Outstid. So she's fired, but she doesn't take it lying down. Judith files a $100 million lawsuit against her former bosses for wrongful termination and throws a bombshell accusation in there. So remember her little affair with the former New York City police commissioner? Well, according to Judith's lawsuit, News Corp tried to shut her up about it because the commissioner was a close friend of Rudy Giuliani, a Fox News fave.

Scandals upon scandals upon scandals. Well in only a few weeks, Murdoch's company settles without admitting any wrongdoing, a fan fave, and Judith walks away with millions, and more importantly, praise, for her outstanding contributions during her 12 and a half years with the company. It's wild. It's wild. It's wild. It's, yeah.

Well, the saga of the ill-conceived O.J. Tell-All seems to be over. Judith got her consolation payout, but the book itself hasn't made anyone money. Well, actually one other person did make money. O.J.'s daughter's company strolls away from the wreckage, coffers still full of the book's advance. Is it toxic of me that this whole time I was like,

screw this book, I don't want to read this book, I don't want him lying to me, but the minute that it gets banned and it's taboo, I'm like, I kind of want to read the book now. Oh, yeah, you got to get in there. Yeah. I think that's fair. If I Did It is no longer headed for your weird uncle's coffee table. Judith Regan is no

longer involved. But the book is written, and all it takes is a publisher with less of an aversion to public outcry to bring it back to life. Since HarperCollins' cancelled distribution, the rights revert back to Lorraine Brooks' associates, O.J.'s daughter's company. That may seem like a minor development, but suddenly this raises a very interesting conundrum for the families of the murder victims. At first, both families saw the book as exploitative and a cash grab by O.J. and just wanted it buried. But the Goldman's get their hands on a copy and end up agreeing with Judith's take. More than anything, this is a confession. Also, OJ still owes them millions of dollars

from the civil suit. So they had a wild idea. What if they publish it? What do you think of that plan? That's a good plan for them. I like it. It feels like now the power is taken out of O.J.'s hands. It's very petty vendetti.

Yes. So now a back and forth legal battle ensues. The Goldman's claim Lorraine Brooks Associates is a shell corporation where O.J. can safely park his money and a judge in California awards ownership of If I Did It to the Goldman's as part of their 1997 settlement. Oh my God. Lorraine Brooks Associates turns around and files for bankruptcy and keeps the IP transfer in limbo.

Then the Goldman's sued the bankruptcy court in Florida and win and the judge tells the Associated Press that Lorraine Brooks Associates was clearly formed to, quote, perpetuate fraud. Neither the company nor O.J.'s daughter were ever found guilty of fraud or any other crime, but now it's official. The Goldman's own the rights to O.J.'s book. And here's the fun part. They get to name it whatever they want.

Ooh, Carl, you're so funny. What's the best possible name for this book right now? Okay. The best name for this book is like, I told y'all asses. I would go with the, if I did it, parenthesis, I did. Well they settle on, if I did It, Confessions of the Killer. And here's a picture of the cover. It's a black book with a little crime scene tape across the bottom. Is there anything like unique or interesting about the word if? If is extremely tiny inside the eye.

So basically the book is called I Did It If You Have a Stigmatism. Wow. Yeah. They hid that tiny little if in there. So before publishing, they add an introduction written by themselves, a prologue written by the ghostwriter Pablo, a section for victim resources, and an afterword by their friend and reporter Dominic Dunn, who covered the O.J. trial for Vanity Fair.

Through the book sales, the Goldman's finally start collecting on O.J.'s debt. For them, it's a relief. The first time in 11 years that they feel like they're finally able to get something from O.J. since the civil suit was decided. The family, they're out promoting the book. And one day, as they leave the set of the Today Show, Ron Goldman's sister Kim feels her blackberry vibrate, and it's an urgent email. To find out what she learns, let's listen to this clip from the Associated Press.

O.J. Simpson is back in handcuffs once again facing serious charges. This all stems from an alleged robbery that took place at the Palis station casino last Thursday. Simpson now faces up to 30 years in state prison off of each of the robbery charges. Yikes. Stupid. Is it karma? Yeah, sure. You could call it that.

I love somebody having an ego so big that they're like, I'm gonna rob a casino in Las Vegas. Yeah. So, OJ brings weapons and gets a group of his friends to help him rob some memorabilia dealers. He's there to take back his own sports collectibles to steal back his own stuff. So, after being acquitted of double murder, the dude ends up being jailed on kidnapping charges in Vegas.

No. So, yes, he does serve prison time, nine years before getting parole. And while O.J. sits in prison, the world keeps chugging along until 2016, television creator Ryan Murphy releases that mini-series we keep talking about. There was also the documentary film on O.J. that comes out the same year and wins an Oscar. So Fox decides to repackage the O.J. interview and finally air it.

This time, the Goldman's and the Browns give their blessing... Oh, my God. ...to show the footage because they watched it and they think O.J. comes off as super guilty. Here's a clip. And I remember I grabbed a knife. I do remember that portion, taking a knife from Charlie. And to be honest, after that, I don't remember.

Except I'm standing there and there's all kind of stuff around and... What kind of stuff? Butt and stuff around. I hate to say this, but this is like... He did it. This was the one I was like, oh my God. He did it, though. He did it.

And you know, it's so funny, because I feel like Karl and I came into this episode fairly reserved, like beat the system, you know, whether you should or not or whatever, but at this point, I'm just like, bro. He really almost got away with it. But then he just kept talking. That interview was crazy. Yeah. I saw that recently and I was just like, oh man. Everyone was like, well, there's a

lot of blood around and I don't remember. I blacked out. I mean, the guy in the book blacked out. Oh yeah, this is all hypothetical. There was stuff all over the place. She said, what was it? He said, blood. It was blood. As we're walking through a lot of this, I don't think he's a good liar. I think he's a man with a lot of emotions and violent tendencies and a lot of ego. And I think he's a terrible liar because I haven't seen one good lie come out of OJ where sometimes when I'm watching these cases, these people can really jump through hoops and connect things that don't make sense. And he just said it. He just said it. BOWSER Just said it.

Well, O.J., his defense. He insists he didn't correct Pablo the Ghostwriter's editions because this is all hypothetical. But Pablo, who sat for many long interviews with OJ, disagrees. Bose, could you please read from Pablo's prologue? Okay, from Pablo. OJ read the book, his book, several times. I made every change that he asked for, and he signed off on it.

If there are errors in the book, it's because OJ didn't correct them. Or worse, he fed them to me. But that's fine too. It's his book. Self-delusion is a wonderful thing. It goes back to what you said, Bose. This man is the most delusional man on the planet. And it protects him. He doesn't have to take any accountability when he lives in his little bubble. He doesn't have to take any accountability for anything and he can just still live in La La Land. Yeah. Which is so wild when it comes to killing someone.

You know what I mean? Like, I will go nuts over like one mistake, like did I come off as rude to that person? And I'm like, that person hasn't responded to my DM. Did I do something wrong? Yeah, relatable. I'll be ruminating after this podcast. But he does not have that at all.

Well, let's do a little, where are they now? Well, upon OJ's death, he reportedly owed over a hundred million dollars to the Goldman's and Brown's. But because of the news of his passing, If I Did It has shot up in sales, with proceeds going to the Goldman family. Judith Regan currently owns and operates another publishing company, Regan Arts, which is distributed through Simon and Schuster. She still calls on Pablo from time to time. He's credited with writing Art of the Pimp, a 2015 Regan Arts book about the owner of the Moonlight Bunny Ranch, you know, the famous Nevada brothel. Oh, Judith and Pablo, please never change.

Let's end this story with a word from Fred Goldman, which I think is the closest we can get to a silver lining this week. Quote, to be able to occasionally say, damn it, we nailed the SOB is a very positive experience. I wish we could do it more often. LAUGHS Well, now that you both know about O.J. Simpson,

Judith Regan, and Fox's attempt to publish and profit off of this book, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? I gotta go big flop with this one. I agree. In my opinion, it's not a baby flop, a big flop or a mega flop? I gotta go big flop with this one. I agree. In my opinion, it's not a baby flop because a lot of people did lose jobs and, well, I mean, homegirls still got her money.

Of course there's like, we could talk hours about the racial element that is involved in this whole case, but I think it's not a mega flop because it did eventually come out and Ron Goldman did get some sort of come up. I think for me, it's definitely not a baby flop. It's just not. It's just too culturally important. But for me, a mega flop, I think has to affect more people as a whole. This had our attention, but when I think of mega flop, I think Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos

involving thousands of people, millions of customers, millions of dollars. That's kind of my barometer for it. So let's say Big Flop. Well, thank you so much to our guests, O.J. Simpson, I mean, Carl Hart, and Erica Boz Bozeman for joining us here on The Big Flop. And thanks to all of you for listening. Remember, if you are enjoying

the show, please give us a rating and review. We'll be back next week to talk about a series of trials that actually did end in convictions. The original witch trials of Salem. Bye! If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and Atwill Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

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