The Big Flop - Rome's Most Bonkers Emperor: Nero with Rachel Bloom | 46

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

How much do you think about the Roman Empire? Emperor Nero’s answer would have been “not that much.” At just 16 years old, Nero starts his reign off with a bang, throwing lavish festivals for the plebs and giving himself headlining gigs as an aspiring singer-songwriter. But thanks to a power-hungry mom, some heated rivalries, and a whole lot of sex with people who are not his wife, Nero goes down in actual flames. Rachel Bloom (Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) joins Misha to tell the epic tale of how Nero's legacy went up in smoke.Follow The Big Flop on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to The Big Flop early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. It's the first century AD. The villainess La Custa sits in her dingy cell scheming a way out. She's a notorious poisoner, a mistress of doom, famous throughout the ancient Roman world for her craft. But she's been languishing in lockdown, a caged animal, perhaps now facing death herself. Although it's been like forever since her arrest. What gives? Why is she still alive? But then she hears clanking and footsteps, two sets of footsteps. Who could it be? She sees a guard, and it's the Roman Emperor Nero?

card, and it's the Roman Emperor Nero? She hasn't seen him in a year, not since she poisoned his father, Emperor Claudius. That was his overbearing mother Acropina's idea. Is Emperor Nero here to finally punish La Custa for his father's assassination? Nah, he wouldn't bother. He'd send somebody else. As it turns out, he needs Lacosta's very particular set of skills. He wants his brother dead. Finally, Lacosta can sleep well tonight. With Nero calling the shots, ordering the murders of rivals and family members at the drop of a hat, she'll be in the game for a long time. But she can't help think. The Emperor's got a weird vibe, like a skeevy musician or something. What's this guy's deal? He's young and intelligent, but impulsive. Could this guy bring down his family's dynasty?

Or maybe even the Empire? Is he dead? Yes. Yes, he's dead. Oh, Caesar, I have brought your illustrious name before the four corners of the earth. I've subdued and conquered the barbaric hordes in the name of Rome.

I will quash my deluded enemy, not with the sword, but with art, my art. Thou art just in time for the treat of thy life. Thou art about to hear Rome's greatest entertainer. Everyone hang on to thy togas. We are on a sinking ship. From Wondery and Atwill Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and sociopathic theater kid at Don't Cross a Gay Man. And today we're talking about our very oldest flop to date, Rome's very own Broadway baby, it's Emperor Nero. Anyway baby, it's Emperor Nero! Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. And we are the hosts of Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases.

From the Idaho student killings, the Delphi murders, and our recent rundown of the Murdoch Saga. Last year, we also started a second weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for us to talk about anything we find interesting because it's our show and we can do what we like. We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction.

Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts and access our bonus shorthand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music, or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Y'all, I am so excited because on the show today, we have an incomparable musician and comedian.

You know her as the crazy ex-girlfriend, and you can catch her one-woman musical comedy, Death Let Me Do My Show, in Chicago next month. It's Rachel Bloom. Welcome to the show, Rachel. Thrilled to be here. Here's a question. How much do you think about the Roman Empire?

Honestly, once a month. Because when you look up history, I like going down Wikipedia rabbit holes. And when you look at history, the Roman Empire lasted a long time. It sure did. And then I'm confused. Like, there's the Roman Empire. And then I was looking something up the other day. And there's the Holy Roman Empire, which I think is different. Right? You got me. Today's story is about one of the most disastrously weird leaders in history. It's a man who brought down his own dynasty, and it takes place between 37 and 69 AD in the ancient Roman Empire. So at this point, Rome controls most of Western Europe, the northern coast

of Africa, and modern day Turkey, Syria, and parts of the Middle East. So everywhere. Wow. So, if you're in charge of Rome, you are the most influential man in the world with almost no checks on your power. Oh, and women aren't allowed to rule, at least not directly. With that being said, enter Acropina the Younger, the future Emperor Nero's mother. We really can't talk about Nero without Acropina. Unfortunately for her, Nero's entrance into the world

is extremely traumatic. A breach birth, which not only hurts a lot, but is considered by Romans to be a terrible omen. A breach birth in the Roman Empire, I mean, I can't picture it. I think the Caesarian section was invented because it's Caesar sometime in the Roman Empire. I read somewhere that the original mechanism

of the chainsaw was invented, something to do with C-sections. Birth is horrible. Continue. Well, undeterred, Agrippina calls for a fortune teller to read her baby's horoscope. So cute. And the outlook is mixed. A real good news, bad news situation. Her son will one day become emperor. Also, he will murder his mother. What do you think Akrapina says in response to that? She says, well, you got to die sometime. Almost. She says, accadat dum imperit. Fluent in Latin, are we? I wish. It's a goal. It's on my to-do list.

It translates to let him kill provided he rules. I'm assuming the fortune teller is correct, but also if you're a fortune teller in what, 37 AD, odds are probably 50-50 that your kid's going to kill you. Yeah. It's like now where it's like, everyone thinks you're outgoing, but you're actually an introvert. That's the vague horoscope of then, like, your child will kill you. It's like, yeah, probably. Well, Nero's dad, he dies from a swelling disease called dropsy

when Nero is barely two years old, which I think is so embarrassing. Like, I died from dropsy's. I've heard of dropsy as like a, I have the dropsy, but it's probably really serious. Probably. But by that point, Acropina is banished from Rome for plotting to assassinate her brother, the mad emperor Caligula, a man who is now synonymous with cruelty and erratic behavior.

Also the Helen Mirren movie where she's naked and everyone's like giving blowjobs for real. Do you remember what happens to Caligula? No, I've like only watched the orgy scene. Flex. Well, eventually he is assassinated. He's stabbed 30 times and shockingly dies. So Agrippina can now return to Rome to plot how her son can take the purple, aka the throne, because emperors wore purple cloaks.

So, Claudius, Caligula's sickly uncle, is declared emperor. Unfortunately for Acropena, Claudius already has a wife, Messalina. She's messy. And unfortunately for Nero, Messalina and Claudius have an heir named Britannicus. There are so many names. I promise it gets easier. Oh, well, now I'm going to Encyclopedia Britannica. I'm going to like Britain. So he goes over to England and invents tea. Probably. Great.

So what do you think Acropena does to get her boy Nero to take the throne? She just kills everyone in her way. Not yet. Okay. She does absolutely nothing because Messalina is so messy, she flames out on her own by being a big floozy, which is a big no-no back in the day. So I have a passage written by Juvenal, who was a popular satirist at the time. So could you read this for us?

The Empress dared at night to wear the hood of a whore, and she preferred a mat to her bed in the Palatine Palace. Dressed in that way with a blonde wig hiding her natural hair, she'd enter a brothel that stank of old soiled sheets and make an empty cubicle her own, then sell herself. Oh! Is that true? Well, he was a satirist, but I gotta see what a whorehood looks like. I can kind of picture it. Yeah. Just hiding in the night.

Well, one day, while Claudius is away on business, Messalina announces she's divorced from him, marries her lover, and tries to take over the empire. Wait, but she has a son. So what about Britannica? What about him? Well, bad news for Messalina and sad news for Claudius. He now needs to have his wife executed for treason. She knew this was going to happen, right?

I mean, you'd have to be pretty daft to not realize that the emperor was going to execute you. You're right. She's a mess. She sounds really delusional. Well, for political power reasons, Claudius decides to tie the knot with Acropina, his niece, who is a quarter century younger than him. This is what people did. Royalty. Nero is pampered and adopted as Claudius' son. So Acropena procures Nero the greatest tutor she can find, the famous Stoic author Seneca,

who teaches Nero how to speak in public, how to write, plus some music and acting, which happened to be Nero's favorite subjects. I mean, sounds like he got his BFA from Seneca. Yeah, yes, he was doing all the warm-up trails for sure. Full scholarship. Full scholarship. Nero is also arranged to be married to Claudia Octavia, Claudius' daughter. Oh boy, so his cousin. Yes. And also his step-sister.

So his cousin. Yes. And also his stepsister. Yes. Claudius, meanwhile, a real wife guy, he treats Acropina with reverence and grants her as much power as a lady can legally have back then. Like for example, she's allowed to attend Senate debates,

which no woman has ever done, but she needs to sit behind a thick curtain so nobody can see her. Opposite of seen but not heard. I really love that. To sit behind a fucking curtain. So as Claudius gets older, Akrippina has one great fear. The possibility that Claudius thinks Britannicus and Nero could be dual emperors. And that is just not good enough for her.

Oh, come on. Agrippina, like, take the win. Here's a question. How do we feel about poisoning husbands? Oh, I don't like it. And it sounds like he's a great husband. So there's this lady, Lacusta, who's supposed to be an amazing poisoner, like a master of the craft, if you will. And Lacusta's already in custody for, you guessed it, poisoning

somebody. So Acropena gets ahold of her pretty easily. And together, they decide on sprinkling some weird little toxin on Claudius's favorite food, mushrooms, to get past the food testers. The dish is brought unpoisoned to the table and only the mushroom intended for Claudius is tainted just before serving. Akrapina eats around the bad mushroom to prove there's no poison in the dish, which there absolutely is poison in the dish. What would be your poison mushroom? Like what food would absolutely do you in? Oh, Pecorino Romano cheese.

Yeah, I'm on board with that. Well, Claudius takes the bait. He eats the mushroom and then he starts to feel crappy. Like literally because he craps himself and vomits, which is apparently normal for Claudius. So nobody thinks it's weird. My friend is writing a historical movie and something she said to me is like, you have to understand everyone had diarrhea all the time. The food was unclean. They were not washing their hands. They were shitting where they ate.

Yeah, in the streets as well. In the streets. And we bid Emperor Claudius adieu. But he still has Britannica. Yes. So how are you going to get rid of Britannica? So what happens is that Claudius' will is very suspiciously destroyed and Nero is crowned emperor. We did it, Acropena! Congratulations. Then, as a consolation prize for killing him, Akrapina and Nero declare Claudius a god. Worth it? You can do that?

I guess so. It's like sainthood and stuff? So, Nero is only 16 years old when he officially rises to power. 16 year old boys are the worst people. Just stinky little stupid hat, wearing slack jawed... Mouth breathing, yes. Neanderthals. But Acropena is the one that's actually in control. So everything's coming up Acropena. actually in control. So everything's coming up Acropena. Acropena is extremely interested in ruling Rome, even if it is through her son. But the best part, she no longer has to sit behind a curtain in the Senate house to listen to debates. No, she makes the Senate come to her palace where she can sit behind any curtain she likes.

So she still has to sit behind a curtain? She still has to sit behind a curtain. That's great. Just one she chooses. But is she the ultimate girl boss? I have this debate about historical figures and the girl bossification of psychopaths all the time. That where is the line between a woman getting whatever power she can in a time where women were disenfranchised, which is most of history, and when is she a bad person?

You know, I think that Yas only takes one so far. When you start getting into murder, the hashtags fall away for me. So how does Nero feel about being emperor? Well, his mother annoys him too much for it to be fun. I mean, he's a teen, he's a stinky teen, and he just become the most powerful person on the planet. He's like, I'm trying to rule, mom. Get out of my room. Would you trust any 16 year old with ultimate authority?

Absolutely not. They cannot even take care of their own facility. Maybe like Greta Thunberg or Malala? Oh yeah. Your brain is not fully formed until you're 25. Your prefrontal cortex is not fully finished. And I'm including myself in this. You don't want to know me before 25. My name is Georgia King and I am thrilled to be the host of And Away We Go, a brand

new travel podcast on Wondry Plus, where we'll be whisked away on immersive adventures all around the world. Where we go, what we do, what we eat, drink, and listen to will all be up to my very special guests. We've got Ben Schwartz taking us on a whirlwind trip around Disneyland. We'll eat a bowl of life-changing pasta with Jimmy O'Yang in Tuscany, Italy. And how do you feel about a spot of sugaring off with Emily Hampshire in Montreal? And away we go, we'll immerse you in some of the wonders of the world. We're gonna be seeing some yellows and vibrant oranges.

And the shoes clicking against the cobblestone. If you're looking to get somebody in the mood, have them look at the Chicago skyline. You can listen to And Away We Go exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Georgia, do you know what joy sounds like? I think I'm hearing it right now. Nero, however, has always been a good student and he knows how to be a politician, but man does he desperately want to goof off

and just hang out with his friends. His mom disapproves. She wants her good little boy to be a good little ruler, but Nero is just so fascinated by the chariot racing and poetry and acting. And like stuff probably like bugs. Yeah. But he also likes to party. Like hardcore, like clockwork orange style partying. At night, he dresses up as a commoner and goes into the city with a gang

of his friends where he has sex in brothels, drinks in wine bars, and stabs unsuspecting pastors by. You know, kid stuff. Very, I was about to say very dirty dancing, except for the stabbing. Until we got to the stabbing. He just stabs people? And what do you think happens to anybody who fights back? They get killed by guards, because I'm assuming he also has guards with him and stuff. Well, there was one time Nero and his buddies, they jump a senator.

And instinctively, the senator fights back and gives Nero two shiners. And at first, Nero, he didn't mind getting beat up because it was all part of his weird fun. But once the senator realizes that he hit the emperor, he sends an apology letter. And then Nero accuses him of treason because the senator knows he hit the emperor. So the senator doesn't know what to do and hopeless, he kills himself. Oh my god. I don't like how much we disincentivize people to apologize, because we say, say you're sorry. But does it really help? Because then you end up killing yourself.

Well, Nero chills out a bit, and with the guidance of Seneca and Acropina, enacts a few progressive policies. He ends secret trials. He offers the Senate more independence, which they really appreciate. He bans capital punishment. He reduces taxes. And he allows slaves to sue their owners if they're especially unjust. Or you could just stop slavery. But I guess the second thing is okay. But here's the thing.

As good as his policies are, Nero is anxious and continues to like anarchy. So he just channels his chaos into satirical writing, sports and side pieces. So Nero also, as we're alluding to, he loves the arts and likes nothing more in the world than playing music on his sitara, an early type of guitar. Obviously, his mommy hates this. She does not like this behavior.

Oh, really? I thought she educated him in the arts. She disapproves of the behavior because he's also overspending. She wants him to grow up, basically. And the more that Akropina tries to keep Nero in line for the sake of the empire, the more he resists. And the two start to bicker, and Akina starts to think maybe she's made a mistake. But the fortune teller said he's gonna kill you. Yeah.

So like... But as long as he rules. But now she's like, I fucked up. She starts to hint that with the help of the Praetorian Guard, she might back Britannicus instead of her own son. Oh, that's... what are you doing? And what do you think that accomplishes? He kills her.

Not her. Britannicus. Britannicus. Mm-hmm. Okay. Lacusta, the Poisoner, she's still in custody, so Nero sends an order to her to poison Britannicus just in case he proves to be a strong rival and overthrows him. Shortly thereafter, rumors begin to spread across Rome alleging that Acropina is somehow plotting to overthrow her own son.

And when she's tried for treason, she vehemently, and more importantly, successfully defends her honor. She gets out of it. After her trial, there is no record of any discord between the two of them. I mean, maybe things are even too good because now new rumors spread that Nero and Acropina are incestuous lovers.

Whoa. Didn't see that coming. But what really bothers him is that he's the emperor of Rome and he still has to take orders from his mother. Or at least that's what people say. So whether he feels embarrassed or just wants his freedom, Nero decides to get rid of Acropina once and for all. So is he fucking his mom or we don't know? We don't know. Wow. But probably. Okay. So he throws her a big party to get her drunk and then he puts her on a poorly built boat and pushes

her off to sea so she can drown, making it all look like a tiny little accident. Very white Lotus season 2. You know? Akrapina survives, but she's smart. And even though she suspects her son of plotting against her, she pretends it really was an accident, giving Nero a chance to change his mind. Unfortunately, he doesn't. Akropina finds out the hard way that her son is determined to murder her. So when the Centurions arrive at her home to finish the job, Akropina knows that Nero's prophecy is about to come true, so she dramatically tears open her clothes

and orders the soldiers to strike her in the womb, the organ that brought the killer into the world in the first place. Oh, my God. Now that Akropina is out of the way, Nero can finally throw himself into his true passion. Entertainment, give them the o. He has unlimited power and money.

What would you do with unlimited power and money? And I like the arts. And also I'm the emperor. I'd start a theater company. I'd make myself the lead of all the plays. Right? Is that what he does? Well, he does love culture and entertainment, all of it, the good and the bad.

And to commemorate Akropina's unfortunate demise, he throws a gigantic festival in her honor. Some attractions include huge prize giveaways, like horses and gold, beautiful clothing, and people, that is, slaves. Yeah. There are gladiator fights, circus acts, music, pantomimes. I mean, it was a huge shindig. As this is going on, the elites think

it's a huge waste of money. Like, ordinary Romans love it, but the elites hate it. All that being said, Nero's first festival is a huge success, and he's hooked. This is just the beginning. So he pours tons of money into renovating performance spaces and producing these spectacles. Broadway.

I'm into this. I have no problem with this. Love this part. Nero invests in the Circus Maximus, which is a venue that can seat 150,000 chariot racing fans and they attend for free. Oh my God. He's a man of the people. So if you're a Roman at this time,

there's almost always something fun to do. I mean, at least once a week, there's usually a gladiator contest, some theatrical performance, or a wild animal hunt. What's the hot ticket that you would have gone to? I'd like to say theater performance because the other two sound barbaric, but I might have been a monster and gone to the wild animal hunt. Who knows? It's terrible. Well, for his 22nd year... Oh my god, he's just 22.

Nero, per tradition, can shave his beard for the first time and officially becomes a full adult. Clearly they didn't know about that frontal lobe. LAUGHS Well, to celebrate, he founds the Juvenalia, which means youth games. Think of it like Coachella meets Burning Man. So now, there's only one appropriate way to learn about the youth games,

and that's by playing a game. Oh. I'm going to ask you some multiple choice questions and if you get more right than wrong, you won't be poisoned today or something. First question. One of the biggest spectacles at Nero's Circus was an animal walking on a tightrope with a rider on its back. What was the animal?

Was it A. A chimpanzee B. An elephant or C. A lion? C. No, it was an elephant. On a tightrope? On a tightrope. Oh my god. I mean, maybe that was the inspiration for Dumbo. How the fuck would they do that? How would you get an elephant to walk on a tightrope?

I guess beating the elephant. Yeah, yeah. Something not so great. Yeah. Alright, second question. Although Nero isn't fond of spilling blood at Juvenalia, there is one accidental death of a ballet dancer who tries to fly too high to the sun. Oh no!

What mythical character is he depicting when he falls? A. Prometheus B. Oedipus Or C. Icarus. I'm gonna guess it's C. Icarus. Yes. It was during a high-flying act the mechanical device supporting the fake Icarus breaks and so too does fake Icarus, who falls to his death and lands next to Nero's throne.

One more question. One of the highlights of Juvenalia was water-based entertainment. People could watch reenacted naval battles or even sea monsters getting killed for sport. What were the sea monsters actually? Were they A, dolphins, B, political enemies dressed up as dolphins, or C, fish? I'm gonna guess dolphins. They were dolphins. Oh.

Yeah, that was juvenile. It also included plays, mimes, gladiator fights, chariots drawn by camels, and all sorts of performances featuring noble people, which was very scandalous. Oh. But it sounds like a fun time to me, besides the one death. And all the dolphins.

So while you and I might have loved Nero's Fest, aside from the gory stuff, one aspect that really pisses off the elites is the proper nobles participating in those performances. Because to them, it's uncouth, it's gross, and Nero is fully aware of that, just doesn't give a F. One possible reason that Nero enlists members of the upper class to perform in the festival is so that it looks

less weird when he does it. Right. Because as mentioned, Nero dabbles with that sitara. And the Juvenelio Festival is where he makes his debut as a singer-songwriter. Great. And to make sure it goes well, he hires thousands of young people to be his groupies. Tell me something boy. Wasn't he famous for a violin though, or is that coming? Oh, that's coming. And just like Nero's whole deal, there's more to Juvenilia than good clean artistry. At night, there are makeshift brothels, roaming sex workers, debauchery everywhere,

so take that, Fire Fest. By the way, if you haven't heard it yet, check out our Fire Fest episode where event promoter Billy McFarland goes from hyping up the greatest music festival ever to becoming the emperor of catastrophe. Very tragic. Back to this episode. Nero, however, he's not all about sexy fun times, but he also isn't necessarily always about work. He reluctantly governs, but he also builds a new gym, a wrestling school, new spa facilities. It's giving very hashtag self-care. And he launches the Neuronia Festival, modeled after the Greek Olympics, where people compete athletically, but also artistically as poets, painters, and sculptors.

Oh, big fan. Big fan. I love it. He loves the festival. But at this point, besides having his mom killed, do you think he would have been a good friend? He's so young. I think he'd be a weird friend. I think if he loves you, he loves have been a good friend? I mean, so young. I think he'd be a weird friend. I think if he loves you, he loves you,

and then he kills you if he doesn't like you. Exactly. I think Nero's a good buddy. Till he isn't. One of his greatest friends is a guy named Otho, and they have tons in common. They both love art and luxury. They tell each other secrets. They party together,

maybe even have sex together, who knows? Otho also has this really hot wife named Poppy. Oh boy. So Nero immediately steals her and exiles Otho so that Nero can install Poppy as his official mistress. Meanwhile, he still has a wife, right? Oh, oh yeah. His cousin's sister. Sister cousin. Yeah. Yeah. For people other than Otho, Nero's popularity grows. But privately, he struggles with the elites. They think he's effeminate, bad with money, deeply inappropriate. And he's also never gotten over killing his own mom and becomes paranoid that people are out to get him for it. gotten over killing his own mom and becomes paranoid that people are out to get him for it. Fair. So he starts eliminating anybody who threatens his power, bumping off or banishing folks who aren't even interested in being emperor themselves. He even begins to suspect his advisor

and childhood mentor Seneca of plotting against him. Oh my god, people need to get out of Rome. I would just get out of Rome. I'd be like, we're leaving. This is not good. Well, that's exactly what Seneca tried to do. He just suddenly retires. He signals that he just wants to live a quiet life in a nice big house, except that makes Nero even more paranoid. Oh my god, Nero. Yeah. So he tries to have Seneca killed by bribing one of his servants to poison him. But that plot fails, as they continually do. But Seneca and him are now enemies for life. So Nero now starts thinking about his succession and realizes, hey, I don't have a kid. I need an heir. And usually that's a pretty straightforward path to fixing, get your wife pregnant. But

Nero loves sex, hates his wife, Octavia, the one he was arranged to marry by his domineering mother. So there's no way they're going to have any babies. He can't even bring himself to have sex with his wife. That's how much he hates her. Yeah. And have you ever met a 22 year old? I mean, that's some real hatred if you can. Yeah, and have you ever met a 22-year-old? I mean, that's some real hatred, if you can. Yeah. So, Nero, he simply divorces Octavia,

claiming she's barren, and then marries Poppy, the lady he seduced away from his ex-friend, Otto. Now, Poppy's known to be intelligent, but she's also accused of having extravagant hobbies, like bathing in donkey's milk. (*Nero laughs*) Same, I guess. LAUGHS

She's also the jealous type. So, she feels insecure about public support for Octavia, so they have to destroy her. Nero and Poppy accuse Octavia of adultery with a flute player. GASPS Nero then forces a man to falsely accuse her of seduction. So for the crime of being married to a dude who just doesn't like her, Octavia is banished to a tiny island, killed, and decapitated so that Poppy can look at her head to make sure her rival is finally gone for good.

So why banish her then? Because like banished I'm like oh she's okay. So strange. Oh my god. Unhinged. Oh these people are so fucked up. But with her gone, the newlyweds can finally relax. All known enemies have been neutralized for the time being. The past sucks.

I know we like look to the past like oh ancient Rome. But also everyone sucks. So like should we really look to the past? And these are the rich and like, oh ancient Rome. It's like, but also everyone sucks. So like, should we really look to the past? And these are the rich and powerful people. They have everything they could possibly desire. Think of all the people who are walking around in the diarrhea filled streets. Oh, these people. And worse, things are about to heat up because Rome's literally about to catch fire. So it's July of 64, not 1964, just 64. And Nero is taking in the fresh sea air at his coastal villa. He's having some wine, reading poetry, very living, laughing, loving.

And suddenly, Rome catches fire. Italy is hot, and not only is Rome mostly built out of wood, it's severely overcrowded. In fact, every couple of years, there's a serious fire in Rome. But this one was especially devastating, like it rages for almost a week. Temples, libraries, at least 12,000 homes all burn up, and a fifth of Rome is destroyed, leaving a quarter of a million Romans homeless. Oh my god. Yeah. Bummer. So now, Nero has to put down his satara, say goodbye to the sandy beaches,

and go be a fucking emperor. So from what you've heard, what does Nero do while Rome burns? He fiddles. He fiddles. First of all, he doesn't fiddle. Because violins didn't even exist yet. So why do we say fiddling? It should be plucking, right? Well he doesn't even play his sitara either. Despite legend, Nero shows up and does his job. Myth busted.

Wow. Yeah, rumors about Nero taking a backseat while Rome needed him are fabricated by enemies much later. Much later? Mm-hmm. Okay. But in the present moment, he starts rebuilding. And because he appears to be a perfectionist, he wants to build back better. So he addresses the overcrowding by spacing out buildings,

which will now be made from fireproof materials. He also plans to commission grand public spaces for the arts. So these projects, they take a few years, and while new Rome gets off the ground, accusations start flying. Rumors spread that Nero burned Rome down on purpose so that he could build it in his own image. Oh.

Either way, somebody's gotta take the heat for the big fire. Good job. And there's this new cult called the Christians. Uh-huh. So at this point in history, the Christians are seen as chaotic nonconformist, and they're easy scapegoats. Nero accuses Christians of setting fire and spreading the fire, thinking everyone will

buy the explanation, and weirdly, some of them actually confess to it. No. Uh-huh. They're almost certainly executed, but probably not in some gruesome ways that we hear about today. Think Burning Alive, that's probably not how that happened. Fed to lions is what you hear. Yeah, because those rumors of Nero's cruelty

are spread centuries later. Like, remember, he got rid of capital punishment, even though they did die. I mean, yeah, it's probably political agendas. He did stab dolphins though. He did stab dolphins. So like, just- He's crazy.

Well, in the future, Nero will be called the Antichrist, but in the present, public perception of Nero is simply trending in the present, public perception of Nero is simply trending in the wrong direction. And the list of Nero faux pas keeps getting longer and longer. For starters, in addition to his wife Poppy, whom he still loves, Nero marries a man, which apparently hasn't been done before. So you can get married to multiple people? Guess so.

Okay, and he marries a man. Yeah. So this little quirk of Roman culture is hard to gently explain, but essentially it's okay to have sex with servant boys because they're sort of ladylike and have no agency, but openly going around with grown consenting men is just too weird. Lest we not forget, the elites still hate Nero for wasting money on public art spaces like this guy needs to go. And the elites think they have just the solution. In 65, a prominent statesman named Gaius Calpurnius Piso gained support as a possible alternative

for Nero. Piso has lots of backers, including senators, members of the Praetorian Guard, and the Equestrians. One of Pizzo's backers is Seneca's nephew, Lucan. As for Seneca himself, Nero's childhood tutor, nobody's really sure if he's involved in the plot, but he probably supports Pizzo, given that Nero's gone off the rails and tried to poison him. Any guesses as to what happens to Pizzo? Oh, he's dead. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. They're discovered and ordered to poison him. Any guesses as to what happens to Pizzo? Oh, he's dead. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're discovered

and ordered to die. Yeah. And Seneca stages an extremely dramatic suicide. I'll spare you the details here, but if you're into gory deaths, look it up yourself. Because he's like, I'm fucked. Yeah. So I might as well do this on my own terms, which is throw myself into a volcano or whatever he does. So, after the dust of the inquiry settles, Nero is in shock that so many people hate him. Isn't he the funnest ever? But the elites just think he's delusional and he still has no air to take his place.

The Julio-Claudian dynasty hangs in the balance. So one night, coming home late and probably inebriated, Nero lashes out at Poppy, who is pregnant, and he kills her accidentally. Wait, but she's pregnant. And he loves her. With his heir. Yeah. So why the fuck would he do this?

Who knows? Jesus. But he's, Rachel, he's so grief stricken by this accidental death that he immediately starts dating another woman who looks just like her. Wow. But then he comes across a young boy who looks even more like Poppy.

So he marries him and then makes him live as Poppy. Oh, okay. So we got some behind the candelabra, although this is worse. So strange. Well, then comes a plague. Oh boy. Where 30,000 Romans die. But Nero, instead of becoming a better leader in the face of adversity, officially transitions into full tyrant. And he's like, no one should wear a mask. Absolutely.

Nobody should wear a mask. We're not mandating JIT. But he sees these conspirators everywhere and launches a far reaching investigation that sees 27 more potential traders dead. Then, after that, Nero plans to spend a full year in Greece. Okay. He's going to compete in art and athletic festivals based on the original Olympics. He wants to win prizes, soak up the culture, pilfer artifacts from sacred temples to decorate

his palace. Okay. The political elite have been forced to come along with him on this journey so that he can keep an eye on them. And he's left a former slave who's now a freed man in charge of Rome while he's gone. Wow. And every inch of this trip is completely unacceptable to the elites and proves just how unserious Nero is about being emperor.

They gotta kill this guy. Seriously. But Nero, he doesn't care. He's just busy winning all of these talent competitions. In fact, Greece loves him so much, maybe he should just free Greece from Roman taxation. And that's exactly what he does. He just spontaneously announces that Greece can rule itself. Wow.

Not making the elites happy, I'm sure. Hmm. And then Nero plans to visit Alexandria next, a city that's supposedly even more cultured than any place he's ever been to before. But, unfortunately, the guy he left in charge back at home is struggling and begs him to return to put out all of the fires. This time, not actual literal fires, but still serious problems.

So Nero returns, but he makes one hell of an entrance. Oh, no. Because usually, Roman emperors that are returning from battle get a really big celebration. So he decides, I want one too. He's just gone to a theater festival. Yeah, I mean, he came, he saw, and he conquered art itself. I mean, why shouldn't he be treated like a freaking hero?

So, beyond the festival, he commemorates his victory with statues and coins of himself dressed as a musician. And from that point on... This is so funny, you'll understand. From this point on, he starts to save his voice for performing rather than speeches. And he brings his vocal coach around with him everywhere to make sure he's always properly warmed up. This is great.

I really go back and forth from hating him to being like, no, no, no, no, I'm from Nero. Yeah. He's like, gotta protect the gift. I can't govern. I have to stay warm. Uh-huh. So a nobleman named Vindex, yes, just like how a German would pronounce Windex, Vindex decides to put an end to Nero and his frivolity. And he backs the governor of Hispania, a senior gentleman named Galba. Couple fun facts about Galba. His joints are so swollen from gout that he cannot hold objects or wear shoes and his favorite hobbies are eating people's leftovers and having sex with men.

Okay, how? How is he having sex? He's got so much gout. sex with men. Okay. How? How is he having sex? He's got so much gout. So Vindex readies his men to overthrow Nero, who's too cowardly to lead in battle himself. Nero openly wants to give up and flee, so at least he can still perform. Nero does find a couple of friends to help him escape the city, and he disguises himself,

rides with them to a secluded home a few miles away, and he spends his last hours terrified of death and orders his servants to prepare for his funeral. If found, there are orders to torture Nero to death. Now Nero, he doesn't have the courage to stab himself, but then fearing the soldiers have discovered him, Nero gets his friend to help him stab himself in the throat. Oh. Very gruesome. His biggest regret is that he won't be going to Alexandria and that the world is losing an incredible talent.

Wait, why didn't he just flee and go to Alexandria? I mean, whatever. I'm glad he's dead. He's a bad person. Bye bye. So that's a wrap on Nero and the Julio-Claudian dynasty. So, during his 14-year reign, Nero had some good moments and some bad, obviously. No one did art better, nor was anyone more interested in infrastructure than Nero. He did usher in financial reforms to relieve debt, but his spending was too extravagant for the people in charge. He was also super paranoid and unstable and made lots of enemies.

And in the end, he was too self-centered, which is what really led to his downfall. But here on The Big Flop, we try to be positive people and kind of end on a high. So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came from Nero's rule? Is there any lasting frescoes or whatever? I thought after the Great Fire, the rebuilding of Rome thoughtfully, you know, bringing attention to safety was a good thing. Here's the thing. He's a bad guy.

No one's great. Everyone's terrible. Yeah. I think the only silver lining for him is that, like, despite propaganda, he didn't directly cause the fall of the Roman Empire. So I think that's silver lining for him. Okay. Not anybody else. Well, now that you know about Nero and the fall of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, would

you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop? Say a baby flop. This is a baby flop. Yeah. I think so. I mean, there was a lot of death. Big flop for dolphins. Yeah. Big flop for his mom and uncle, and first wife, and second wife, and cousin.

Well, thank you so much to our super theatrical guest, Rachel Bloom, for joining us here on The Big Flop. And thanks to all of you for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review. We'll be back next week to talk about the movie that saw the rise and fall of Bennifer 1.0, the truly infamous G. Lee. Bye! Bye! If you like the big flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

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