The Chris Cuomo Project - BREAKING: Ex-Chief of Staff Frank Carone on Eric Adams’ Independent Run for NYC Mayor

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

Frank Carone (former Chief of Staff, New York City Mayor Eric Adams, and co-author, “Everyone Wins!”) joins Chris Cuomo to discuss the road ahead for Adams’s reelection campaign following his break from the Democratic Party. Carone defends Adams’s record on housing, crime, and economic recovery, reflects on the mayor’s relationship with Andrew Cuomo, and breaks down how he sees New York’s political landscape shifting. He also shares lessons from his own time in City Hall and talks about his new book on negotiation and leadership. Follow and subscribe to The Chris Cuomo Project on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube for new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday: https://linktr.ee/cuomoproject Join Chris Ad-Free On Substack: http://thechriscuomoproject.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? Uh, a little bigger. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Nice. Now the offer? Lease a 2025 Escape Active all-wheel drive from 198 bi-weekly at 1.99% APR for 36 months with $27.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week.

Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.55 down. Wow, that's like $99 a week. Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. You wanna know why Mayor Adams just announced what he did? Let's talk to one of his main advisors. I'm Chris Cuomo, welcome to the Chris Cuomo Project. Frank Carone knows all things Eric Adams. He worked with him in City Hall.

He's part of his defense team. He's one of his main advisors. He's one of his main advisors. He's been through hell with Adams and he's been through hell himself. You want some perspective? Let's get after it. Frank, thank you for joining us. Pleasure to be here. You deserve allowed me a chance to speak to you. What do you think as a legal, as a political, and as a media savvy guy, what do you see as the state of play in American politics right now? You know, it's interesting, that question. And We talk about it a lot,

Mayor Adams and I, as a close friend, and also many of my friends. I'm a patriot at heart. I served in the United States Marine Corps. My grandfather fought in the Battle of the Bulge. I think there's a lot more needed that we tone down rhetoric, tone down ideology. I don't view politics as a religion.

Some people act that way. And it is a method to elevate the entire country. And we've got to remember we are one country, one people. It's unfortunate to see how aggressive the narrative and the conversation has become. Get back to my children, back to my children's children. And I think we're part of the fabric of the country. So it's disappointing to see the vitriolic nature of politics today. How is it different than it was in the 80s? It's hard to be to say. You know, I was busy chasing girls and being a teenager in Kinasen, so I wasn't that focused. Although I was attending the Thomas Jefferson Democratic Club back then. My dad made me on my own,

walk in there and say hello to Tony Genovese and Frank Sedeo and Perry Ketchum and the whole gang. But I think with the social media and information age, it's gotten a little too fast. Not a chance to calm down, digest what you're hearing, and formulate an opinion around identity, like we used to do. What was the biggest lesson, positive, biggest lesson, negative, that you learned being in

house with Mayor Adams at City Hall? You know, the biggest positive lesson I learned is that government can do good. And there's a lot it can do to help move the economy and elevate everyone to a place that they aspire to be. Negative is the self-serving nature of it, the raw ambition and the sort of distrust that exists among so many people. And disappointment you find from folks who you thought were aligned and if polling goes a certain way, the wind blows a certain way, next to you know, they're at each other's throats.

So that's the most disappointing. And as a person, I don't live my life that way. So it's very difficult to be around. Does Mayor Adams, not just because he won, but because of the process that you watched unfold, does Mayor Adams' first election bear witness to you of the value of rank choice voting? No, I'm not a fan.

Matter of fact, I actually brought litigation to stop it in 21. But if we would have brought the suit a little earlier, perhaps we would have had better success if the judge did not want to disenfranchise overseas military men and women. So those ballots were about to go out. It was too late. I remember round one, the Bear Adams was up on Maya Wiley, 90,000 votes. And by the end of the sixth or seventh round, I don't remember which round.

Maya Wiley dropped all the way off, and Catherine Lagasse came within 8,000 votes. It's strange, you know, people do coalitions, and I'm not sure the purpose behind this question. Well, the counter is Adams' proof that it works because he was the most moderate candidate in that field. And over time, even though he didn't have 50% right out of the box, he made more sense to more people no matter what their personal preference was. Yeah, I mean, that's an argument. I'm a fan of open primers, like particularly having California,

that method I think would sort of enfranchise voters more than current state. What do you say to the party folks that you and I grew up with, was, hey, what do you mean you wanna let people into the club to vote for our own guy? They're gonna sabotage us. They're not our people.

Why would you wanna do that? And bring it back to point one. We're all in the office. We're all Americans. Listen, I'm a quintessential company inside and I've used that skill set to my advantage, the party's advantage for two decades. Doesn't mean it's the best system. Now with the benefit of experience and age behind me, I believe it's not the best system. I know that now with the benefit of experience and age behind me, I believe it's not the best system. What do you want people to know about why you left City Hall? It was a great privilege to serve the city as future staff, particularly with a new administration

where you could create the culture, create the team, and actually do things that we always dreamed of doing. It's always a privilege that I'll never forget and one that I thank the mayor for asking me to do. But I said to the mayor the day he asked me, and well actually a couple days later, I still know my family, you know, I have a private practice, I have responsibilities. I can do this. I can set this in a way that I think best together, but I can only serve one year. So I resigned the day that I began. And I told him and everybody to team that up front. And I believe that's

healthy, by the way. I know it happens more often in Washington and in DC than it does in local government. But professionals parachuting in and out of government, sharing their experience, I think is healthy. It's not done as often. And of course, they took that a lot of attention. So I do believe it should happen more often. So you have lived through or are living through something where you were questioned personally,

politically, your faith, your religion, what made you decide, well, I'm still going to stay in the business. I'm still going to stay in this fight. I'm still going to have my firm and we're going to consult and I'm going to be part of the political process. Why with all the stink that you've had to waft through? A little bit of stubbornness. Truthfully, I like challenges. I like working on difficult projects and it's still a privilege to do. It's something that's in my blood. When I believe in a person and I could be authentic and we're aligned, I would not do it as a business for an individual, let's say in politics, I didn't believe in, it was authentic and credible.

In contrast to when I was a lawyer, I completely thought inside of a box and I was focused on the client, not my personal views. In politics, it's a little different. You sound like my brother. I say to him, listen, I mean, my brother, I have to explain this to you, but once someone you love in your family wants something, you're there.

And I was like, but why this? I mean, haven't you done enough after everything you've been through? Why don't you go make money some other way? Why don't you serve some other way? What is it about public service that makes it worth the beating that comes along with it?

You know, it's just this feeling when you're accomplishing something that you really can't describe in words. It's doing, you know, helping people. It's listening, you know, fixing intractable problems and dealing with, you know, different sides of an issue that seem to be completely at odds and then finding common ground. It's very rewarding. Also, part of it is like you just said,

you're there when your family calls on you, you develop relationships and those relationships, you want to fight for and continue to do what you can as a friend and as a colleague. It's just something that the more you're called on, I guess the better, more success you have, you become a victim of that or you're asked to help. And you come from the same background as I do, we're loyal individuals in our nature.

And when someone asks, you want to do it together with the challenge and the good you could really do. Completely different from private sector. And it's definitely not at all about earning you know, earning or making a living. It's the opposite of that. It's spending time and spending a lot of time without thanks and without pay. But there is a rewarding side to it. And I can't explain why we keep coming back to it, but we all do.

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Buy the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. What do you want people to understand about what happened with the people around Mayor Adams and the eventual federal indictment that came against him? Well, the first part of your question is the people around him. And I remember Buddy Ryan, the coach of Eagles, where he was cutting or not resigning Chris Carter, and he was getting criticism. He says all he does is sport touch-down. And I say the same thing to other people around the Bay. Everyone, all they've done is create success and achieve things.

You know, everyone, the mayor is a non-judgmental person. If he believes it's a person sincere and is the best at what they do, he'll surround himself with him. Sometimes he gets stung by that decision. But I believe that most of the people around the mayor really pray public service and have a track record of success just like Chris Conner only scoring touchdowns. As terms of the mayor's, you know, the sort of rite of passage he's gone through, it's been a homily experience to him, like it is for anyone. And again, being, starting my career as a defense lawyer in the early 90s, seeing what families go through and the stress, it's really difficult. But I give him a lot of credit for keeping his head up high, allowing people who have to move on, move on without judgment and without criticism.

So he's the more that I get to know him through these trials and looks like I think anything with someone most broke and you're in the trenches, you feel like an extra bond and respect. And that's how I feel in your eyes. People can check this for themselves, but I have been an open critic of the indictment against the mayor. I thought it was weak sauce. The guys around him, I see some of those cases differently than you, but let the process play out.

I certainly didn't see him as being connected to the mayor, other than, as you mentioned, his judgment about who he has around him. That's a fair question. that's a fair criticism, but the cases have to play out. And of course, my brother is running in the same primary as the mayor. My brother is not an enemy of the mayor.

I haven't heard him go out of his way to attack Eric personally, but that's sometimes part of politics. But I'm concerned. I think that either you think someone deserves clemency or a pardon, and you dismiss the charges, or you don't. But do you think it was fair to Adams that the Trump administration kept hooks in him until the, let's see what happens after the election?

I don't know if that's fair to Adams, but you think it was fair to Adams that the Trump administration kept hooks in him until the, let's see what happens after the election? I don't know that's fair to Adams. No, no, you know, just a couple of points in what you just said, when we get to the conclusion of where the justice is complicated. Yes, the mayor also used Governor Cuomo as a friend. I remember one we've had early on. After Governor's struggles, we would routinely meet with him for dinner. And we were happy to do so.

When we received the criticism for our answer was, you have a lot to learn from this man. He's been a great public servant for a long time. And we'll meet who we want to meet. And I was proud to be at those meetings and proud to say that. And I feel similar, and great respect that I've said over and over again.

I can assure you, firstly, it was no deal for someone who was at some of these meetings. It was never, ever discussed whatsoever. How the Justice Department came to their conclusions, you have to ask them. Why they decided to move the why they, you know, decided to move the way they did. Only they know. I'm not privy to that. I can tell you that it was without question, not a deal, because what are you getting in return? It just doesn't

work that way. Explain to me what the theory is of the campaign. As I've said to my brother in the past, the party has a problem with you. That also seems pretty clear about Adams also. The party has a problem with him. Why run at all? Why run as a Democrat when you know the party has a problem with you?

That's a great question. The party has a problem period full stop at the moment, as evidenced by the recent elections on the national level. And I think what the party stands for, and does it stand for the working class in middle America? Or does it not? Or does it stand the ideology and advocacy and yelling and screaming. I think the party itself is doing some soul searching. I don't

see a clear message from the party that's going to, you know, engender itself back to the middle class and working people. Not that it can't, not that it won't, but at the moment I think the party has a problem outside of Eric Adams and Governor Cornyn. My although it depends who you ask, they are the problem, depending on who you ask in that party right now. I can't tell you when I'm on the subways, especially if I'm heading out of Manhattan into Queens, I mean, there is a wing of your party that is really, I mean, listen, I grew up in this party, right?

I never have been a Democrat unless it was to vote for a Cuomo, otherwise I've always been an independent. I'm not a particular fan of the Democratic Party, but it's not my father's Democratic Party. There's a lot of way out there, radical culture, ideas that my father never had on his radar screen. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And the same with me. I grew up in the Bill Clinton Democrat, you know, under the

learning from John F. Kennedy, from your dad, all the speeches, we had there was a message, he was clear, it was compromised, and you move things forward. Your brother says often, you know, what progress is, progress, right? That's what we stood for. And I agree that there's a loud minority that has usurped the party. And I think we're going to, it'll come full circle and be fixed. But really, like you said, when I'm out with him, there's a real dichotomy, Chris, that I found. And this gives me some comfort, Rumaise, real action chances. When I'm out and about with him, which is often,

I see a dichotomy between how the general public greets him when they exchange pleasantries, they walk with pleasantries. We can't walk a half a block without taking several dozen photos. And then I hear the political pundits and the hyper insiders, the polling, you know, polling is done very specific to a group. And then I look at the success where we were January 1, 2022, you know, primate record numbers, tourism record lows, offices empty, storefronts being vandalized,

mental illness not identified as approximately caused of crime and of disarray, et cetera, et cetera. And then, fast forward to today, I was talking to a friend recently who was a partner on a large law firm who likes to invest in restaurants. And he said, you know, I have 10 in New York City, and not to say with those 10 are,

you should be named all 10, because all 10 are profitable. Then I was thinking to myself, when do you ever hear that? Who works in these restaurants? I'm not trying to get a reservation. You're seeing the city, you want to do, always want to do.

We're not perfect, always want to do. But we're moving in the right direction. When I see the mayor's greetings on the street, I see his success, and I see we've had probably a billion dollars worth of negative ads surrounding the indictment, his story has not been told. And when he does, hopefully the people recognize the work that he's done and give him another chance. What do you see as the explanation for this perception that New York City is like it was when you and I were 10 to 15 years old? It's hard for me to answer that because I know too much.

I know the stats in my mind so often. So I'm not really objective to that question at all. But I guess if I had to step out of it and answer it, you know, we dealt with a real crisis. The migrant crisis is a real thing. I remember arguing with the Biden administration as chief of staff for decompression strategy, arguing for work visas, doing my executive order. And I was told time and time again, no, and that argument continued. And I thought it was just not sustainable and unfair to just absorb all of that into pockets of cities, particularly New York City. And the Adams administration has transitioned 185,000 migrants out of their system and out

of their care. But how can so many individuals looking for a better life, you know, you want to bring back down this about it, but it's not working because they don't can't work without work visas. But in midtown and online to get into buildings gets a sense of what's happening here. It doesn't look like the city that, you know, is bustling and working and people, because you have individuals there, you know, I guess in pockets. So that could add to some of the feeling.

Other than that, there's just a hyper attention on isolated occurrences. Of course, transit, a lot of policing is needed there. And that's being addressed. Mental illness, the laws that prevented individuals you know, individuals from being detained if they're against it, and all this has to be changed. So you add all that, I guess it adds to the feeling that the city is not going in the right direction. But when you look at the real numbers, it says it paints a different story. So for me, it's hard for me to, you know, really answer the question

when I know about it. Well, there's perception and there's reality. And in politics, the former usually beats the latter. And I'm not saying I share the perspective. I'm just saying I can't remember the last time I had people asking me if it's safe enough to bring their family to the city. Well, we'll go back to the start of this question.

You remember, wasn't this dirty? A nightmare. Nothing like today. Nothing. I used to sell canas parmias on the Elk Strait and take it to Broadway Junction in the late 70s. It was scary. But, you know, you mind your business, you got through it. But it's nothing like the new.

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the challenge and the challenge to get the story out would be he is a still a Democrat running on an independent line. And that independent line will be called whatever it's going to be called. And so that would be the challenge in educating the voting population. Hey, I'm still William Clement. I am the mayor. This is a track record I did despite the perception. And, you know, I guess getting messaging, all those successes and all the work that he's done to New Yorkers is something that he's up for and will do. He has work to do, of course, we all do. Then he's educating people that it's just another line on the document. It's just another column.

Just like great Mario Cuomo did in 1977 in the liberal line, almost Pete Koch, and the way John Lindsay did in 69 when he did win re-election, you have to lose in the primary. They had similar challenges, that's without the information age. So perhaps maybe your dad, Bill and Polo in today's technology may have pulled it off but it came close.

I don't know, Koch was a big deal. His honor, the original his honor. Koch was a gold standard in terms of retail politics and being there for the work in Mary and Joe, how onerous is it as a prospect to run without the party's favor in the city or state of New York? You know, I don't think you, the endorsements don't win races, people do.

And here's how I would handicap this. I don't think you, the endorsements don't win races, people do. And here's how I would handicap this. You only need 400, 500,000 votes to win in a general election. May the Blasio won with 240,000 in 2012. Mayor Adams won in the primary with 289,000. And then in the general 750,000 to a race to Curtis Lee, who got about 330.

That represented 67 percent of the vote. Can you believe Curtis Lee got 300,000 votes? Chris, I can't believe in a city of almost nine million people, 900,000 people, that's all that votes. So the challenge is, how do you motivate people to vote? How do you enfranchise them? How do you speak to ethnic communities? How do you speak to the five boroughs to come out and vote and feel like they're part of the process? And I think the

candidate that does that most effectively is going to win. And it will be outside the door. I think we're living outside of them over the last couple years and I think it's going to continue to trend. Curtis Sliwa? Yeah, well, you know, I have nothing to say on that. Curtis Sliwa? I mean, if I haven't told you that. If that's the best Republican needs to put up with, then I tell you no. Curtis Sliwa? Look, you got to talk to the Republican leadership this. A two-party robust system is healthy. It brings us to the center. It brings us to brings compromise.

It brings a healthy debate. Debating within primaries, which I said it like open primaries earlier, is a better way to bring a healthy debate. If that's an individual who has ever worked in government, has no executive experience whatsoever, manages brand new organizations, if that's the best that the Republican Party could put forth in 2021, if they do it again, you know, that's an issue that they have to address.

Curtis Sliwa? I mean, that guy is the only thing that connects us to when the city was really a problem was that he was there with the guardian angels. He's still wearing the hat. You know, that's like the only through line that makes any sense to this reality that he's trying to architect for people that he thinks we're living in Thunderdome. That guy, but I think he's, he's living in the sevens as well. The way, the way you describe the perception. I think he encourages people to view it that way. That's what gave him his, you know, his necessary existence. Yeah, the guardian angel who wants you to see everybody as a devil.

Exactly. You know, look, I'm sure when some people, you know, say, oh, look, what's he talking about? What's Cu he talking about? What's Cuomo talking about with this guy, Caron? They're going to be surprised because I should be attacking you for being with Adams or whatever it is. But what do you think that you know from all your years of being inside?

Now, you're right, it's changed. People are nasty gratuitously now. But in terms of what it's supposed to be about and how you're supposed to be able to talk to people, even if it's the case where your guy is running and my brother, who's my guy, is running, here we are talking. Listen, the mayor, the reason that I have so much respect

for Mayor Amjad is because he has courage to speak his mind when he believes it to be correct. And a case in point, and one that highlights the heightened rhetoric, is when President Trump was campaigning and he was speaking to a crowd in Madison Square Garden and those calling for either a fascist or a Naziist. I mean, someone who has a grandfather who fought in the barrel of the bulge and many friends who lost relatives in the Holocaust. I said, you don't just say those terms lightly, particularly when someone is in another literal persuasion than you.

You can disagree vehemently, but you don't use those kinds of terms. It was completely disrespectful. And they said we should tone down the rhetoric and he has the right to be there. I agreed with them and it was the right choice. And I remember liking some of the difficult decisions he's made that he thought was right.

We cut, we did what's called pegs of programs to eliminate the gap. We had to cut some of the agencies down by 5%. And we took great heat for that. It was politically unpopular. Rallies on City Hall steps and Beaches Union and others criticizing it. But you know what? It was right to do. And the city's bond ratings have improved dramatically. And it is that courage that I think is necessary, you know, leader. And I hope the people of New York see that in May or until the time comes.

We have a couple of months to go here, but I think that there's something reassuring in the idea that I think that to the extent that Andrew and he don't openly become their worst selves, I think no matter who wins, there's a good message in that. Because you know that the guys don't dislike each other. And what you said about the mayor is right, I lived it. Andrew was taking meetings with you guys

when other guys would not meet with him. I don't know who he was asking or who he wasn't, but I know that the mayor was saying yes and saying it in public at restaurants or whatever. And that is true and I know Andrew remembers it. And I think that no matter who wins or no matter what they disagree about, if they disagree without being disagreeable and being assholes, I think it's good for the whole process. I completely agree.

I've set the example that needs to be set of how mature professionals can react. You know, it's suff just to go in the ring. You could fire it out and go for a drink after. And you know, I'm certainly a person who lives by that mantra. We'll see how it plays out, and I hope that's exactly the way this ends. And you know what's funny?

Just let me just add this to that topic. Mayor believes that he's been completely, despite all his troubles, fortunate to be able to serve the city. I'm sure the governor almost feels the same way. There's a chance he's got a governor. He's going to give it his all. I said to someone recently, I asked,

what do you think is going to happen to Mayor Worms? He said, nothing. He's going to give it his all. We'll go out to dinner and we'll continue our lives. All you can do is your best. That's all you can ask for. Authenticity, credibility, and your best. And I know both of them are going to do just that. What do you think the top three reasons are that people pull a lever in the mayoral primary? Forget about for whom they pull it. What do you think it is? I think it's going to be the fact

that the mayor has done more for affordable housing than any mayor in history, particularly the city of Guest, 80,000 new units, more affordable housing permits than in history. It's going to be public safety, 70,000 ghost cars off the street, 1,300 illegal weed shops closed so those lawfully licensed individuals can make a living, 20,000 illegal guns taken off the streets, and small businesses

who are now seeing red tape cut. Believe it or not, there's been 50,000 storefront small businesses opened since the end of the pandemic. Tourism, record numbers, as I said earlier, restaurants built the capacity. I mean, trying to get a reservation after calling a favor to get a reservation these days, that's a healthy city. So that message versus the perception

is just saying that's out there, just has to be told. When it is, if they give him credit as they should for his leadership, I certainly believe that the mayor will be seen in positive light and re-elected. Not to mention healthcare. Stranding dyslexic, stranding teachers, they screen dyslexia. 40% of Rikers Island inmates have dyslexia unscreened and live a life of despair. He's now screening early on, brought the world dyslexia form to New York for the first time ever. So there's a life of despair. He's now screening early on, brought the world dyslexia form to New York for the first time ever. So there's a lot of good stories

that May can articulate when he does. And also he's a great campaigner. He just is an inspirational speaker. He's a hard worker. So I think when you take that work ethic, you have the narrative and you have the body of work behind you and that work ethic, you have the narrative and you have their body of work behind you and it is an incumbent,

I like his chances. I think you're right in circling around what it is. I think it's a safety pull. I think they see it safety just in terms of their lived experience, safety in terms of values and safety in terms of income and tax structure. I will tell you, I moved out of the city because I live on Long Island. I mean, I still have a place in the city, but I made my residence out in East Hampton

because I wanted to stop getting banged by the city tax. It's a reality of city life and people reviewing tax burdens right now as a function of what they think they're getting for. And I think it's a safety election. Do you feel safe on the streets, on the subways? Do you feel safe in your property value? And do you feel safe in terms of your ability

to grow your family and get paid here and keep as much of it as you can. Now those are also tough buckets in politics on a national level also. You know, you raise the taxation, it's a great point, there's some somewhat New York is a victim of its own success,

I know Maine Bloomberg is still out to say that. And the more you have people wanting to live here and move in, the more, you know, supply shrinks and as a result, prices are increased. So through programs like the City of U.S. and cutting through that and creating supply, hopefully alleviates that. Plus, what the May did for the poorest New Yorkers with accident tax, if you're at 150% below the federal poverty line, you may have eliminated city tax down to zero. And I don't know that that has really been in the press at all, has been articulated to the public the way it should.

But these are little positive steps that sort of leave some of the burden. So Frank, when you're figuring out how to process your life and your experiences, you're not an old guy, and I gotta say that because you're the same age as me, but you have lived enough at this point where there were stories to be told. So you decided to write a book. First of all, how many people in your life said, I love you, but be careful, be careful, be careful. Oh, if I, when I hear the be careful. Be careful, be careful. When I hear the be careful, it just, I cringe. I've heard it so often.

You know, all you can do is live your life as best as you can, make the decisions that you think are appropriate, and roll with the punches, that's about it. So yeah, I hear that quite often. So when you decided, yeah, I hear it, I'm gonna write the book, why? So you know, it's just,. So when you decided, yeah, I hear it, I'm going to write the book. Why? So, you know, it's just a little background out there. I'm a voracious reader, particularly

of history and of business books. And I was reading a book once upon a time called A Bargaining Brilliance by a fellow named, I think, Louis Schiff. And in the prologue, it was the mention of a fellow who he called my mentor, who lives at the records in Connecticut, but who grew up in Grinney, Canarsie, so my antenna went up. I said, Canarsie, wait a minute. So I send this guy, Russ Prince, an e-mail within two minutes, he responds,

we have breakfast and we start collaborating. At that same time, I was joining Abram Spenceman at Honor of Olive, in about 2010, and we took a methodology that I had in my personal experience and what Rusty sort of taught as a business writer himself and built through this model of networking and relationship building. And Abram Spenceman grew together with myself

and some of these ideas. We then 30 lawyers, ultimately 130 in the largest law firm in the history of Brooklyn. So taking those lessons, and I spoke about them often on CLE courses, how to negotiate vis-a-vis the process of everybody wins, which is essentially creating direct alignment in your goals, and the individual that can negotiate what

they're not looking at in negotiation as a zero sum game. Playing the long game, the mindset of identifying what it is that you need if you're a person who's negotiating with listening through empathy. Some people call it tactical empathy but listen carefully and then finding common ground and then building off that common ground and doing so with credibility and humility so that you can play this long game and don't look at every negotiation

as I have to win or outtalk you. And that's something that we then found successful. And the feedback we got, we decided to write the second volume, and that's what we just did. Now it's available on Amazon as of a couple of days ago. Happy to say. And I think the second version is even better. Why?

Well, we use, I think we're clearer on our explanations when it's more user-friendly. The process is sort of one, two, three, four, and learnable. And we learn, you know, sometimes as you write, tense, trailer, you know, we're particularly a little bit more than necessary. And when people are reading books like this, I think it's easier to just be very matter of fact

and speaking late terms, and that's what we did. And also we have a body of work, but I went from the first book we've learned. So I have many examples of more real life than the second version as well. So I believe it's a better product. Well, I think that there's a how-to aspect to this that is very applicable.

And I think what you did in my understanding of volume two versus volume one is application. Sure, who doesn't want to succeed in business? Who doesn't want to be like the superstars? Sure, it's a great aspiration. It's a great selling point. But I think that you making it to all these different relationships in your life,

there are all these different, not negotiations, but there are these different dynamics that the same concepts apply to in terms of how you do with the friends, how you do at work with the colleagues, you know, how you do with the customer base, how do you do with your partner, how you do with your kids. You know, there are a lot of transferable skills that you outlined in the first volume that now can be a more broad palette. Yeah, that's right. We tried to use application and examples. I bring some in from my experience at City Hall where some projects were in track group before in different administrations and

just lagged, but good projects, we just couldn't find common ground. And taking those processes and applying them to the real world and then writing them in the book as, hey, you see, this is one example of how this principle worked, I think will resonate the read room more than just speaking in theory. Now, there's one aspect of it is understanding how to surrender the me to the we. And I thought that that was interesting when I was doing the research for the interview that you recommended to people you were working with at City Hall, one of my friend, Ryan Holliday's books,

"'Ego is the Enemy Enemy, where he is unpacking that particular concept of seeing who you are, but also knowing how to get away from that and see yourself as a part of something bigger. Why did you recommend it and how does it tie into what your philosophy is within your own writing? Oh, it's exactly the timing. Ego is the biggest obstacle to advancing so many different projects, both in politics,

in business, and in any relationship. And Ryan's book was really helpful to me. It actually wrote. I used to do a book of the month club, the Chief of Staff, and I'm not sure what was the second. I think it was the second, the first was Culture Club. I think the second one, the third one was Ryan's book. And I wanted to impress upon the city hall team and staff and agencies,

how important it is to put your ego aside and focus on the job at hand. Even if it's somebody else's idea, your idea is not the one taken from this side. We're here to serve the people in the city of New York. The same thing can be applied to a business. You either serve your shareholders or your partners or your customers or whatever. Ego is such a fragile thing. We all have to work as much as we could say and say,

yeah, of course we know that. We still succumb to it from time to time. But being mindful of it, I think is a step in the right direction. His book was great, it was concise, I loved it, and I recommend it to everybody in the city hall. Yeah, he's really rejuvenated in the true sense of the world. One of the oldest philosophies known to

man from the ancient Greek era. It's interesting because he used ego as the enemy, as kind of a modern application. I know all the Freudian people get upset because ego is really a modulating device and it's not conceit as we use it or self-centeredness. But it's one of the cardinal virtues in Stoicism, which is the philosophy that he has rejuvenated and brought back in. They have courage, wisdom, temperance, and justice, or the four cardinal virtues, they call them,

that are supposed to guide your reason and choice. And that goes to temperance, which is to know how to understand your own passions versus others. And when you look at politics, this is a place that is all ego and all enemy all the time. And let's be honest, it's one of the reasons

that Trump was able to come back in the way that he was, is that all the rules went out the window. And he became about just a straight play of aggression of populism that wound up overwhelming everything else. Yeah, I guess, if you highlighted politics, I'd have to incur with you. But what I was doing as Chief of Staff was sort of administering and as an executive and moving things forward, not necessarily running for your election. But what are the other books that are running now, they're almost optimal as the way.

Stoicism, I think he was quoting Marcus Aurelius. I use that principle in the book as well when I talk about long-term relationship not to be disappointed if something not necessarily goes the way you expect initially, because there may be a better path and if you play the long game with credibility, authenticity, and through tactical empathy, most certainly you'll have success maybe in a way you don't envision.

I love that other book by Ryan Holiday as well. I've used that as well to my leadership in City Hall and also in some other thinking you're directing in the book. Well, I appreciate you. I wish you good luck with the second volume. And I love the idea of everybody wins. I think it is an idea whose time is very, very much in the present, because this zero sum, you know, your worst, you gotta lose is killing us. And people who get to see it a different way are not only gonna be healthier, but they're gonna be happier.

I wish you good luck with the book. I wish you good luck with everything going forward. And I appreciate you giving me your perspective. Thank you, Chris, for having me. And a pleasure to be here. You know, I really enjoyed it. How many times you asked? Frank Carone wrote the right book. I hope for him it's at the right time.

Can everybody win when it comes to politics? I don't know. Only one gets to be mayor of New York City. We'll see what happens in those politics in this city and also to the entire national environment because let's face it, we're all in it together. I'm Chris Cuomo, thank you for subscribing and following. Appreciate you being with me here and at NewsNation 8P and 11P every weekday night. You