The Daily Stoic - Adam Kinzinger On Doing The Unexpected And Freeing Ourselves From Fear

Episode Date: November 8, 2023

Ryan speaks with Adam Kinzinger on losing the things in life that become normal to us, freeing ourselves from fear, his new book Renegade: Defending Democracy and Liberty in Our Divided Country, and putting his job on the line for a better purpose. Adam Daniel Kinzinger is an American former politician and senior political commentator for CNN. He served as a United States representative from Illinois from 2011 to 2023.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of $20 or more using the code daily stoic 20. Hey you, yeah you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Jiffy is the fastest and easiest way to get jobs done around the house. Just hop on the Jiffy app, choose from the 40 plus services, and bam, you'll be matched with a reliable pro in seconds. Windows and eaves cleaning, check, yard cleanup, check. Plumbing, you guessed it! They've got it all! Plus, all jobs come with a satisfaction guarantee. Download the Jiffy app or sign up at jiffyondemand.com and don't forget to use the code first for $25 off your first job. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series.

Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Brighten and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the Ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are,

and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I'm going to ask you something for today's episode. I want you to put away what you think you know, I want you to put away your political affiliation, I want you to put away any preconceived notions here at all. And I'm just gonna tell you, I'm gonna talk to someone who was a pilot in the National Guard, was deployed in Operation Iraqi Freedom, in Operation Enduring Freedom.

He's a guy who, as you'll hear in today's episode, saved a woman's life when she was nearly decapitated by some sort of crazy method, and he steps in and saves a woman's life when she was nearly decapitated by some sort of crazy method and he steps in and saves his person's life. He runs for a political office. He serves six terms as a congressman. And there's certainly things I disagree about his political views.

And that's great. That's fine. I have no problem with that. What I respect here, why I wanted to talk to today's guest, is that when Shikar Rio, when a line was crossed, he put his job on the line to do what he thought was right. And it did. It cost him his job. It cost him relationships, it cost him friends.

It threatened his safety as anyone who's sort of waited into these matters, can tell you all the crazy people come out of the woodwork. And it required him to cross party lines, it required him to speak truth to power, it required him to make an enemy of what was then the most powerful man in the world and even once out of power one of the most indicative and allowed melts in the world.

And I think he withstood all this with a remarkable aplomb with some courage, with some insights about American history and democracy and our obligations to each other. And so I was really excited to have Adam Kinziger on the podcast, former congressman, member of the January 6th commission, former House committee member on energy and commerce, foreign affairs committee.

And as I said, a rack in Afghanistan veteran pilot, he flew out to this interview and flew out after he's a new Texas resident, and the author of a book, Renegade Defending Democracy and Liberty in our divided country is out as of Halloween. You can follow him at Twitter and on Instagram, at Adam Kinzinger. He's actually quite funny there,

and doesn't suffer fools gladly, and claps back at all the trolls. I think this is actually quite funny there and doesn't suffer fools gladly and claps back at all the trolls. I think this is a really important interview. I had Colonel Alexander Vinman on a few years back. That was one of my favorite interviews and I think this is important. If you think stoicism is a political, you're getting it wrong.

The stoics were not just politicians. We can imagine Kato taking stands against the strong man populist figures of his day. That's who the Stoic's were. There was a whole thing actually called the Stoic opposition, right, who stood against the tyranny of their time and suffered for it, had to put the job on the line. Not comparing Adam to this.

I'm just saying this is a tradition in the Stoics, and that's one of the things we talk about. Talk about Stockdale amongst many other things. So thanks to Adam for coming on the podcast. Check out his new book, Renegade Defending Democracy and Liberty in our divided country. Follow him on social media. And anyways, I wish we had more politicians with him.

And it's a shame to me that someone taking a stand like this cost of their job is actually precisely the kind of person we need. That for their due. Here's my interview. So we were like sold the house and then it was just like, well let's go, we'll just live in there because they have a place they're not in. So we'll just stay there while we figured out and then it was just like, I'm done moving. I'm just not going to keep moving. It is weird. Texas doesn't have a reputation. Well, rightfully so. But you don't think like sort of

immigrants, Texas, as like, I mean, obviously you think of the border, but you don't think of Texas as like Houston's the most diverse city in the United States. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And so it doesn't, it's, it's weird. The sort of reputation of Texas. And then you actually look at like who's here and what's going on, it's totally different. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it is, I was actually surprised because like a few years ago, I was saying Texas is purple, you know, it's like, and it's kind of had this like,

not purple thing going on for a little bit, but there's a really diverse, I mean, I was at the trip fast yesterday. And that was, I mean, that was interesting, right? It's like all the Texas liberals. And it's like, there's a pretty big, it's a pretty big community of people that aren't kinpaxed in here, you know? Yes, thankfully, he is literally not representative in the sense that there's just sort of this sort of minority takeover of the all. I don't think a Democrat has been elected to statewide office in Texas in like 20 or 30 years. It's something like crazy. Yeah, it's been, was it Ann Richards would have been the last one, right? I think so, or maybe, you know, maybe some of the other, like the other person right there in the middle.

Yeah, that's crazy. Well, thanks for doing this. Yeah, it's good to do it. Yeah, I am cool set up. Thank you. I like it. This was a barber shop for a hundred years and then the guy passed away and so we're like these are the original floors. That's been the process of turning it into a studio. I like the book thing though. That's cool. Oh, the bookstore? No, the book source cool, but this is like the whole wall school. Yeah, it's not that. I did this talk in Seattle yesterday or not day before yesterday, and sort of in the middle of it. I don't know, I don't know, goes about something and she passed out and hit her head. Oh, dude. And like the paramedics had to come, the whole thing stopped for it. And it was really interesting to see how people like, like, so I'm on stage with someone else and we're sort of, you know,

the lights come on because nothing happens. But I watched like a thousand people respond to a crisis. It was like a weird science experiment. Yeah. And then I like, I couldn't really do anything about it. It was one I'm on stage, but two by the time I saw what's happening like people had already knew yeah, but like you sort of watched a bunch of people Do nothing yes you watched a bunch of people get really involved then you watched people sort of Try to be involved like just sort of shout things at the people who are involved. It was it was strange

Then I was reading your book and and I was reading about your incident in the parking lot. Yeah. So that's really interesting, because that's what I was gonna say is there's, there's like this idea, they teach you this in like officer training and stuff. Thank you, that, you know, like 10,

what is it? 50% of people will run, okay? 40% will freeze, because they wanna act, but they can't think it through, and then 10% will act. And I saw that even in my incident. So we could talk about that. Yeah. What happened? So some I'm I'm walking back with my girlfriend. It was like 12 20 in the morning. And we had gone out like gone out to dinner, a couple of drinks. So it was like a buddy. The girl I was dating, we're walking back to the car,

and like this girl just, the best way to describe it, I first thought it was like this Halloween thing. Okay. And even though it was August, like it's just your mind. Yeah. And this girl's running across street and just bleeding out basically. And Guy is following her and he had basically thrown her down on the ground and tried to, and that's not trying to decapitate her, but try to cut her head. We try to cut her head off, I guess, cut her twice. She rolls out and runs, and then that's when I hadn't ended up intervening. At one point he had gone, like, go pull her out of the car and he was going to stab her again.

And that's when I don't have any real memory of doing this part, but that's when I like grabbed his hand and just pulled him away. And I just remember feeling him like trying to stab me. Yeah. It was just like, uh, oh my gosh. And then thankfully got him down, but that was crazy. That was like, what was that O6? I think. Yeah, it's weird because you have this, uh, moment to do something or not to say, like the the idea that some people can involve some people don't, I think it's also, it's like the same person in different situations, in different moments.

Oh, it's so true. That's so true. It's not like there's heroic people and cowardly people. It's like, what were you thinking about two seconds before? What did you have for a dinner last night? You know, like all these factors go into what you do in that moment when it counts.

It's crazy, because the one thing I think about is, if, you know, it's like fight or flee, and that is the biggest, realist battle, like the most primal battle in your body, right? And your mind and your body. And I just remember, I think if somebody would have even whispered in my ear like, Ron,, I would have gone. Oh, interesting. Because you're just waiting for that, like, your mind, even my own mind is just like,

what do I do? Do I run or do I fight? Yeah, yeah. And I just remember thinking, like, okay, if I fight, I'm going to get stabbed and die. Yeah. Because I mean, I would fight a guy with a gun before I'd fight a guy with a knife. Yeah. Second was, I can't watch this happen to her

and live with myself. Like, I can't wake up every day with this memory and feel like, sure. I feel like I'm worthy of even being called anything tough, so yeah. But I really, and if it happened right now, like if somebody came in here, I'd find me run too. I don't know.

But that time I didn't. I remember I was at a gas station, was all these things seemed to happen at like, way late at night. Which is a good reason to just not be out at night. I just go home. But I was like at a gas station, it was like, I don't know, like 12 of them when I was coming back

from something. And like I saw this car sort of over by the side of the gas station and the guys like trying to get in the car. And then you know that game you would play with like your brothers and sisters, but like you're in the car and you're you're locking, you know, go, go. You're like, so I thought that's what's happening is like frantically sort of like clawing at the handle. And so I'm like, what is this guy doing?

And I don't think he could see me. And then all of a sudden the door opens. And in like a second, he's in the car and he just starts wailing on this woman who clearly was trying not to let him in the car and I don't know maybe he had his so she starts wailing on her and so I go like hey hey what the fuck are you doing you know like and and so he freezes and then I'm like well what am I supposed to do he freezes and then he's both like yeah because like I think he thought he was all alone and then he gets in the car and sort of peels off. Yeah.

And so now I'm like, do I have to follow this person, right? And so they kind of drove like a few guards down the road and then stopped for a second. And then so I got my car and I'm sort of calling man on the on the on my cell phone. I got the license plate plate and then it, but what's weird too now in this crazy world that we're living, especially in Texas,

is you're like, now I have to worry about getting shot by this person. You know, we live in a world where that is unfortunately a wash with guns. I actually have my concealed carry permit, but I don't carry, because I don't feel safe for doing it, but you're just like, you, I think there is this sort of wanting to get involved

and then there are the reasons to not get involved and that's probably where the just sort of instantaneous just do the thing is what matters. But if you think about it too much, you get your, there's all the reasons not to do it. Yeah, and I think like, it's okay. So when you get overwhelmed with this like idea,

like when you see this guy wailing on this woman, when I saw a lady come over stabbed, I just had something in, I was in Pompo, no beach. And so I have this weird thing where I see car fires all the time. Really? I've seen like 20 car fires in my life. Those people like, they've seen one car on fire.

It happens to me all the time. Anyway, so this is probably two months ago. I'm sitting in a 7-11 and pompano beach and I'm taking a drink of water and I'm calling to FaceTime my kid. I'm getting ready to and I look at my rearview mirror and there's freaking huge vans on fire. And I'm like, so I get out and everybody's just like, and they're like running away. And I call 911 and this guy's trying to get into his car. It's a terrible story. The guy was homeless, lived in his car, his car,

caught fire. And so I'm not just trying to get away from this thing. He's trying to get his stuff out. Yeah, yeah. He had a dog in there. Oh, God. The dog came out, but, you know, he's going to lose his house, basically.

And so I ended up having to like having to be aggressive and be like, dude, get out. There's nothing we can do to this thing. But you still, what you see in that is just like, this is why I think it makes mental sense to kind of prepare yourself for these moments. Because there's all the time where I'm thinking, how many times do you drive by somebody in distress

on the side of the road, total time? It doesn't mean pull over every time. Like we got to be realistic here. But I always play in my mind like, okay, what happens if I see somebody who's truly hurting and doesn't just have a flat tire? And that like I think programs you to make the right decision.

But again, it's dangerous because it's also like, look, don't fight guys with knives. You know, I got lucky and it was literally lucky. Don't do it. Yeah, there is this, I think one of the dangers of this sort of collapse of some of our like civil and polite society is that it makes it very hard for people to do what is the right thing because there's

this sort of other element of it, right? Like you think about this sort of even like the political realization of some of police, right? So now, like I remember I was driving actually on the road to come to here to do a podcast one time. And I see this car sort of, Korean, it crashes through, it goes off the side of the road, flips.

And so it's crazy too when you see it. You just like, this isn't real. Because you're in your just normal life and then like movie life happened. I'm just talking about it with you. And so Korean flips up, sit down. So I get out of the car, I run over, or just normal life and then like movie life happened. I just thought it would be a bad thing. So Koreans flip-ups sit down. So get out of the car, I run over some other guys running over to the cars upside down.

The guys in the car, the wheels are still spinning. And we sort of break the window and the guy crawls out and we're like, wow, OK. And you think, OK, we're going to wait around for the police, what's going to happen. And this got, it was crazy. Like within maybe two minutes, another car pulls up, and this guy just gets and runs and jumps in that car

and drives away. And he goes, oh, this is a guy who doesn't want to see the police. And I mean, out here, you're like, oh, this is probably an immigration issue, right? And so you go, oh, yeah, this is what happens when like, hey, people want to do the right thing and then they're worried about getting shot or people are worried about doing the wrong thing. They don't, but they don't, they don't trust the police.

They don't trust other people. You know, so it becomes this kind of feedback loop where very quickly the, the good Samaritan nists of people, you know, bumps into the messy reality of like, you're going to regret doing something or they're going to, and so it's this, it's this weird sort of sad commentary, I think, on where we are. And it's like, like further reinforces this division, because it's like all of a sudden, you know, you can't trust somebody you don't know. We used to kind of default to, like, you can trust somebody until you can't trust them. Yeah. We kind of default to you, you can't trust somebody

until you learn you can. Well, in like society where there's millions of people and thousands of interactions in your life every day, you know, to have a default like you have to earn my trust. Yeah. Nobody's gonna earn your trust because you have these limited time windows. The interesting thing, by the way,

you're talking about the car flipping over. What I think a lot of people don't think about until you're in that moment is, so if you'd have played that out in your mind prior and said, okay, I know that there's going to be this car that flips over. The thing, you know, you would have had a certain view, and it's beneficial, but when you show up and you talked about the wheel spinning, that's what triggered me on a site, because I'm like, you probably heard the wheel spinning, you could probably smell something. There's like this overwhelming senses

that are actually all screaming danger by the way. You might smell fuel, you might smell fumes, you might, you know, hearing that those tires if the accelerator is still going, that sounds dangerous. And it's like everything firing is saying, go away from this. And it takes like really disciplining the thing to say, I'm gonna, like breaking the window and pulling a guy out

may seem simple, it's actually a pretty big decision. And it's a hard decision, because now you're saying this car could blow up, and I'm right here, because you catch on fire, this guy could be dead. Maybe he dies while I'm doing this. It's somebody else's property. You know what I mean?

You're having to make these sort of executive adult decisions that are outside the bounds of normal reality. Yeah, yeah. But it's good. Once you do it also, like once you're someone who gets involved, then you build this muscle of being the person who gets involved. Like, are you the person who keeps driving? Are you the person who drives, it'll call 911? Are you the person that walks and sees what's happening, or are you the person that, you know, and so that I think building the muscle of being the responsible person that gets involved

is good because then you're, every time you do it, it's still scary, but it's a little bit less scary also. Everyone leaves the legacy. For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human. From Wondering and Goldhanger podcasts, I'm Afwahersh. I'm Peter Frankertpern.

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in her neck, the dude got charged with attempted murder. And I think he's out now. This was still, I guess we're approaching 15 years ago, say 17 years ago. But I, if that wouldn't have happened, first off, I don't know if I'd have ever been elected to Congress. Sure. Secondly, would I have been the one kind of standing up on the January 6th stuff? I don't know.

Sure. Because what it does, because you mentioned, it's like you build that muscle, I proved it to myself that I had what it took in a situation like that. Right. Because I think every, particularly a young man, but probably everybody in their life thinks about, okay, if something happens, do I have what it takes to act? Everybody plays this through their mind. And at that moment, I did. Like I said, that doesn't mean I'll have it at every time. Sure. I may run faster than you if something happens next time, but, but it was something where you can prove like, yeah, I can survive that and I can do what it takes. And so it's just, I don't know, I think it's important when even just calling 911.

Yes. I've called 911 probably five times just in these car fire incidents. And it's like each time I'm nervous calling 911, it's not like, I don't like call and then I'm just like, hey, what's up 911? It's like, there's a little bit of nerves in talking to it because you're like, okay, I'm now, I'm not pulling the handle basically. I said this once, I was like, if you've never called 911, you're not living an interesting enough life. Like, you're not out doing thing. But like, that's true. You actually even learn, like, the first time you call 911, you've never done it before, so you don't know what's happening, right? And. And then I remember the I probably call 911 like 20 times because I'm always seeing stuff and whatever. But like, you know, car accidents and stuff. I remember one time

my wife and I were driving we're driving to New Orleans from Texas and we saw we saw someone like, you know, you're on this sort of like, by you, there's highways where you can see the water. And someone was clearly stuck because their boat was there and then they were standing next to the boat and they were just like waving by the side of the road. So we had to call them, we got transferred

to like the Coast Guard. But anyways, you call and the person is very calm and you're super stressed. And then they're like asking all these questions, you know? And I remember I was like, I don't have time for this shit. Like something is happening. And I remember she was like, I've already contacted the police. Like she was like, I message like she was explaining how it works, which is like, I thought

she's like asking me all these questions that are much less important than like, where is it and when is it coming and whatever. And she's like, all these questions that are much less important than where is it and when is it coming and whatever. And she's like, I've already done that. I'm just getting the additional information from you and I'm realizing, oh, she's just trying to keep me on the phone in case something else happens. And so you realize that there's just this whole other world

of emergencies, crises, whatever, that a lot of people are very experienced dealing with and you're not and you get this sort of peek into it and then yeah, you're not as intimidated when you call 911. You're like, hey, there's this thing. No, I don't wanna leave my number. I do, you know, and you're just like,

you just know how it works. And then you're part of the club of people who help as opposed to the, you know then the bystander club. Yeah, and it's funny because it's like, it's kind of like, I guess flying on a plane, your first time you go up on a plane, you're like, how in God's name is this thing in the air? Yes. And then like me, you become a pilot and it's just like second nature. And so you think of like calling 911, try to call it a couple times. Don't fake call 911. Yes. Please don't do that. But you know, if there's a moment where you think there's an emergency, give it a call.

And, like, breathe in the whole experience of being somebody that now called 911. And that person on the other end, by the way, you know, you hear 911 calls. And sometimes it's like, okay, why was the 911 operator such an ass or whatever? And it's like, well, they deal with fake calls all the time. Yes. But, like, I couldn't imagine being on the other end all day long of somebody's worst moment in their life. Yeah, you basically have a job where people are just

injecting cortisol and adrenaline into you. And you can't receive any of it. Right. So you have this sort of, that is interesting. You know, we don't, we sometimes think like, yeah, police officers, EMTs, military people, especially for like, they're not actually like magically better than anyone else. They've just been exposed to it over and over and over again. It's a training thing. And they've just had reps.

Well, that's where it comes like, okay, and I know this is what you like to focus on, too, is like kind of that mental discipline. Yeah. So the physical discipline, too, says, okay, if you're a police officer, and frankly, I think if you're, so I typically can see you'll carry, I'm not today, because I had to fly commercial, but typically, but, and it's not because I want to be cool about it, it's because of the threats I've had, but like one of the things I'm encouraging anybody that does carry, or obviously if you're in law enforcement, you already know this, is practice in your mind when you pull that gun, and practice pulling it,

because not so that you become some John Wayne that does it, you know, proactively, I think actually that makes it less likely you pull it out. And if you do pull that gun out because you need to, or if you're an officer because you need to use lethal force, now your entire hands aren't going to go numb, which is actually what happens, right? Because your brain becomes your, your body becomes basically self-preserving. So you lose all your, you can't hear or you can't see well. Sure.

Um, and but on the mental side of thing, it's that, it thinks it's that too. It's just being able to discipline, being able to take pain, being able to push through that moment, being able to continually have repetitions of what happens if this happens, what happens if this happens, what happens if you're in Congress and you have to take a basically a career ending vote, whatever that is. I think the more you think through and focus on it, the more you're apt to actually do the right thing

and it won't hurt as bad because it's just not strange. You've already thought this through. Well, you're talking in your book about sort of the refueling in the air. And you just think about how stressful and high stakes that is and you're talking, there's like the fuel hose is 50 feet long. Just to give you a set, you know what I mean? They're not like a mile apart.

And so I've got to imagine you're just exposed over and over again to high stress situations and you practice all the different contingencies. So, I mean, you're still alert and there's nerves. And if there aren't nerves, that's probably means it's time to go, but you are familiar with it, and that familiarity creates the calmness,

which then allows you to do what you have to do. Yeah, so on, I flew refuelers for about two years, and there are a couple of planes, specifically, to produce what's called a really big bow wave. And you think about it, it's like, if a boat's going fast in the water, that wave it's pushing in front of it. Well, the same thing happens in the air.

And so, particularly with B2s or C17s, they're very maneuverable, but they have this bow wave that as they come up, you don't notice, and then all of a sudden boom, it pushes it. So they're pushing you as they come up towards. Yeah, it creates like a disturbance in the air, and you just, you feel your tail kind of go up,

and it's just unsteady First time that happens you're like oh balls. We're dead, you know, we're gonna die And then you eventually just get used to it even though that's still a very dangerous moment But the most that the scared Scaredest isn't the right word the most like the high anxiety I've ever had in flying was always nighttime in Iraq in the RC26, which is the thing I've flown for the last 15 years. Common in night vision goggles, where out, I don't know, you start at like 10,000 feet in the air, 10 miles out from the end of the runway.

And you basically just create this massive drag so you can descend as fast as you can, and as intensely as you can, and you can't get it wrong. Because if you get it wrong, you're gonna land too fast on the runway and go off the runway, or worst case, you've gotta go around and you're now in like enemy weapons area. First few times I did that, I was just like,

if you saw my vitals, they'd be off the charts, then they got better, and it's like Navy pilots landing on carriers, they say that's worse for them than combat. So. Yeah, I, um, have you read Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Yeah, yeah, yeah say that's worse for them than combat. So. Yeah. Have you read Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff? Yeah. Yeah.

Great. Great book. Yeah. One of the greatest. And I remember the thing that struck me in that book is he's talking about when John Glenn orbits the Earth. His heart rate never goes above 100. You know, he's there like, you know, he's like 12, 16 hours, something he's just orbiting the Earth.

But he's so, he's been in this situation so many times, and been in planes doing crazy stuff so many times, that he's just sort of calmed himself down. I remember I went to this conference one time and I get seated at this table and I'm sitting across from Jim Lovell, the guy in Apollo 13. And I would go, is that could that possibly have been true? Could his heart rate have never gone up? And he was like, oh, we were just so chill because, you know, we just done it so many times.

They practiced for every contingency. You're just high stress situations are just sort of the sea that you learn how to swim in. Yeah, yeah. And well, it's like it, by the way, and that's the coolest story, by the way, just because like, I would love to just hang out and drink with those guys one night and that's the coolest story, by the way. Just because like, I would love to just hang out and drink with those guys one night. And just like, I mean, I'm sure there was just,

I mean, it was pretty intense, but you know, they drink you under the table. Oh, for sure. Of course, they would, I mean, if you're gonna go into space, you better learn how to drink prior to that. Well, you see like someone like Buzz Aldrin right now, he looks like this old man,

and you don't realize what a badass you was. Yeah, so, you know, he would have ripped your throat out, you know. Can you punch some dude in the face for like, questioning the moon land they went 10 years ago? Yes, I thought that was perfect. He just punched him and knocked him out. It's old man. But yeah, I mean, so I think that,

so it was, it was one, I guess one of the more kind of examples of that in my training was something called sear, which is survival, evasion, resist, and escape. And so every pile it'll tell you or every air crew member that's gone through, it'll tell you like it's the worst training, but it's the best. And you just get like, you live in the woods, you know, you're eating bugs, right? It's that thing. Don't you have to kill a rabbit? You talk about it.

Yeah, I have to kill a rabbit. And I killed a rabbit. I'm sorry, Jesus. You have to catch the rabbit or do they give you the rabbit? rabbit, you talk about it. Yeah, yeah, I have to kill a rabbit. And I killed a rabbit, I'm sorry, sorry Jesus. You have to catch the rabbit or do they give you the rabbit? No, they give it to you. Yeah, it would be good worse if you had to chase this thing and like, then you're just like a real ass. But I guess it's worse because he's in a cage,

but they wanna get you past, I mean, it's important because they wanna get you past that like a version. Sure. So it's not, they're not gonna bring out like some, you know, a deer that you may have shot when you were a kid. They're going to bring out a rabbit which is so cute and fluffy. And you've got to kill it. And it's like, look, we're not here to like like celebrate killing animals, but we've got to get you past your aversion. And that includes like, I was always scared of death of spiders. I still am. I hate spiders.

But when I'm out in the field, I'd see one crawling over me and I'd just kind of like rush it away. Whereas even now I'd be like, oh, damn, it's a spider. But like the thing about the survival was then you go into this prisoner camp where really good people, really good actors I'll say are basically treating you as a prisoner.

And I mean, a lot of the enhanced interrogation techniques you hear about is stuff they actually took from what they do to us, but it's fantastic training. And it just teaches you kind of, again, the mental side of what happens if you're captured by the enemy. Well, in Vietnam, they didn't tell anybody what to do. And these guys tried to resist to the point of death. Length side, John, for instance, died from resisting.

John McCain and everybody else broke at some point. Well, you're going to break under pressure. And you need to not have guilt for that. And a lot of these guys had guilt racked. That's what soul thing was about. Did you study stockdale at all? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, he was a pretty intense dude.

Yeah, like, and that's what's sad when he ran for Vice President, you know, he kind of became a caricature. Yes. But that dude is, I don't remember all the details of his story, but like, I just remember being like, this dude is, he's one of the best. Like him, Sam Johnson from Texas, former representative, I actually got to serve with him for a few years.

When I actually read his book, like, that was a pretty incredible story. He was in prison for, he was there like with McCain, but for like six years as well. Yes, Stockdale studied stoicism that the Navy had sent him to Stanford where he gets this philosophy degree. So he has a pectetus with him.

And so supposedly as he's parachuting down, he goes, I'm leaving the world of technology and entering the world of ectetus. And his point was this is, this is where you test those ideas in the laboratory. Interesting. But yeah, there was this idea,

and I think some people think that's what stoic means, is sort of invincible and invulnerable. And one of the things that Stockdale sort of puts into place in those camps is what he's primarily dealing with is the guilt, right? Is like, you think you're not going to break and then he realized very quickly that inevitably everyone does break. And so what it, what actually he found as job was, was not so much enforcing discipline, as far as making everyone strong and resilient,

or rather he found that resilience was, how do you bring a guy back after he breaks or after he feels shame or guilt? Because that's what creates the downward spiral that says, I'm worthless, I'll just give them everything or I'm worthless, I don't deserve to live. And so it was really about sort of the forgiving of the guilt, bringing them back into the folds and also kind of being strategic about what they did, Brick. What were you willing to give? And then what actually do you resist unto death? And the reality is most of the guys didn't know anything worth resisting unto the death for. The only thing that, you know, in Stockdale's case that he wins the Medal of Honor for is he's like, all die if it saves someone else from torture, right?

So he famously shatters a mirror and cuts his own wrist and then he beats himself, they oughtn't nearly to death with a stool. So they're taking him down to do this propaganda video. And he's like, okay, can I just like use the restroom really fast? He walks in and he grabs this stool and he, first he shatters the mirror and he cuts his forehead. So he's bleeding all over the place. And then he starts beating himself with a stool. So he's not camera ready. And he's like, I won't be going downtown. But I think that's where they're going to film. And so for him, resistance wasn't, oh, I have these state secrets.

I mean, what does he really know? He's so pilot, but he's like, I won't be used as a tool to hurt the other people in the camp. And that's what they say is like, I mean, I wish I could go into all the secrets, but like, that's the thing is, is understanding they're going to make propaganda with you. And one of the things they did to us, I guess I can't even say reveal this, but you end up in the very first part of this when you're being interrogated, making propaganda that you had no idea you're making.

So a lot of that is eye-opening, just like you thought you were doing one thing. Oh, just noticing the subtle ways in which they could get you to do something that could be used against you, but you don't even understand what's happening. Yeah, I mean, imagine this. Imagine if they're putting you in a stress position and saying, hold this board, right? So you're holding a board, you think that that is the punishment until you realize later that in front of the board is a sign that says like, I bomb women and children. Right. Right. And so it's recognizing that. It's also recognizing how to be able to make your, when you are forced to be on camera,

like what Stockdale did, you are not credible. You know, if you're nervous, if you're shifting around, if you're looking off camera, for instance, if I'm looking at the camera making a video and I look over like this, you know, everybody's like, oh, there's somebody over there that's talented.

So you just discredit that stuff. But that is in a time when you're getting beat and you know, whatever is not something that you're going to think about unless you think it through ahead of time and you're trained on it. Do you know who Jeremiah Denton was? I know the name, but he was in that same, those same camps. And then he he ran for Senate in maybe Alabama or Mississippi. He was a senator for a couple years, but he famously forced to do this propaganda video and he blinks. Yes. Moritz code.

Yep. Some sort of sort of, yeah, I forget what the message was, but it was some giant middle finger to the to the cap. I think it was like coercion or torture. I think he blinks torture. Yep. I mean, there's so many kind of cool things I've forgotten them all, but I think like if I actually was put in a prisoner camp today, you'd probably come up with them.

That's probably why they taught you. It's not supposed to be at the top of your mind. It's supposed to sit there as the sort of deep, deep, deep thing that you access only when certain pressure is applied. Yeah. And then when, if two of you are in prison together, you're like, hey, remember that thing that shows coercion? It's like, well, oh, yeah, it was this thing, right?

And, but yeah, I mean, it's the Vietnam generation. Maybe this is a bit off topic, but the Vietnam generation, I every time I get a chance, I thank them because regardless of the Vietnam war, I think we all agree like it was not a great war, right? We shouldn't have gone in. But these guys and what they took, I mean, when I got back all agree like, but it was not a great war, right? We shouldn't have gone in. But these guys, and what they took, I mean, when I got back from Iraq, both in 08 and 09,

you know, the weird thing is, so people imagine guys coming back from war, men and women coming back from war, and like, you somehow go through this plinco set of deprogramming, and then you end up kind of magically back at your unit. The truth is, you literally end up on a plane to go to like Qatar and then you take a plane to Baltimore

and then you get your connection home. And you're just like, you're just done. Yeah, you're just there. And, but coming off that plane in Baltimore, there was like 100 people I think that just stand there and like line the way and applaud as we walk off. And it's like, there's like three or 400 of us coming off this plane.

And all they do is just turn clap. And I mean, I know that they probably are there clapping all day every day. Sure. But the fact that they were there saying like, walk them home and thank you. And I'm not a ground soldier. You know, I don't have PTSD from my time,

but it just meant so much. And those Vietnam guys are the reason we have that, because of the crap they had to endure at home. Sure. And then when they got in prison or camp, the complete lack of training they had, and having to deal with the shame that we've now been taught, like,

don't carry that shame. Yes, yes. I interviewed Captain Dave Carey who was also there, and he was talking about how he found he didn't need therapy afterwards, because what Stockdale and McCann and these other guys had set up in the camps was these sort of groups where they were constantly debriefing

and talking about what happened. And so it was the camaraderie of the unit that provides the processing and it sort of dealing with the moral injury and the doubt and all of that. And you can joke about it. Like, dad actually makes a huge difference too. Yes. Being able to just joke about it. Like, the dark humor, by the way, and war, any of your veterans that have been to war, I'll know this. Like, if, when I was in politics, my biggest fear was,

like, somehow somebody recorded our conversations that I rack and like, oh, how am I going to explain some of this stuff? But you just, it's all that dark humor that helps you just deal with that moment and that camaraderie is so important. And that's why like when you look at the breakdown of society and I think when you look at whether it's the political system, whether it's even your neighborhood, I mean, who goes out and does barbecues with their neighbors anymore?

Sure. Really? Nobody. There are a few neighborhoods I've been to where you can kind of see camaraderie, but that used to be a regular thing. Sure. Remember that, Krona? It's just the importance of that social interaction and the importance of seeing people

outside of their meme, outside of their front and having those relationships again, you know, whether it's, I mean, it doesn't matter. Just being able to share it, being able to be vulnerable and not vulnerable in a weak way of like, I'm going to sit around and cry and just share everything. But just like, sometimes you have to offload those emotions. And I know you obviously are into this stuff, even far better than I am. And all the stuff I've seen is pretty impressive and it's like just that ability to be able to handle those stresses every day. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Suryte.

And we are the hosts of A Red Handed, a weekly True Crime Podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Find, download, and binge-red-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. Get ready for Puck Drop at Bet MGM, an official sports betting partner of the National Hockey League. BetmGM.com for terms and conditions.

Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact CONNECTS ONTERIO at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BEDMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with eye gaming Ontario. Well, transitions are really hard, right? You're leaving professional sports and suddenly you're civilian again. You're leaving the military or suddenly a civilian again.

Or I imagine there's not much of a transition slash support system for someone who leaves office, right? There is. Especially under the circumstances that you end up having to do it, right? Right. Like it's not like the end of a long career and you're passing it to a successor and you feel great about the state of things. And they were peraged. Yeah, sure.

Right. Yeah, no, it was, look, I'd always imagine kind of early on. It's funny. So when I got back for my rack and I announced I was running for Congress, the one thing I said I said it a few times publicly, which is like, but I repeated it to myself a lot. I Said if I'm gonna vote on issues of war and peace. Like if I'm gonna vote to send men and women to combat and inevitably die I have to be willing to give my career for the country because that is such a tiny tiny like sacrifice versus somebody that's given their life.

And so I'd always imagine like the end of my career would be like I'd make some announcement. You'd go to the local Kwanese club where they give you all your freaking hats and whatever for all your service. And you know, maybe I took some career in to vote to save social security or social security. When this happened, and it was like, I basically kind of got ghosted by my district in essence. It was kind of like lack of support anymore. Yeah, it was when I got out in January, out of the combat of the January 6th stuff and the hearings, it took a while for it to sink in the actual toll it took. Yes, there is no, and there shouldn't be like, you know, support groups for former members of Congress, but it does because Congress, just like military, whatever is your

identity. Yeah. You know, when I, when I for 13 years, if I would go into a room, it unless the president was there, yes, unless the president of the United States was there, I was one of the most important people in the room. Sure. That's something that takes them getting used to not having that, but I love it now. Well, and because you get so used to it, it becomes normal and thus you're afraid to

lose it. Right. You, you, you forget what it's like to be a regular person, even though you existed for a long time as a regular person. And so you don't want to lose it. There's this story about Senaqa, who's a very wealthy guy. And then he becomes a political power broker, talk about sort of modern equivalents. He ends up the tutor for this young kid who's going to be the emperor of Rome.

And that kid turns out to be Neuro. So he has basically the worst adult in the room job you can imagine. But he would supposedly practice poverty on a regular basis. So he'd like wear rags and not eat, not stay in his house. And his point was he said, you wanted to get up close and personal with this thing. So you could say to yourself, is this what you're afraid of?

That's it. And I can imagine obviously 99.9% of people who leave office leave so and become do better. Right? Like they become lobbyists, they become authors, they become speakers, they become whatever. Maybe they even get a better office, right? But they don't, unless they go to jail,

unless they're leaving because they committed crimes, right? They're, it's a pretty soft land, and even in the worst case scenarios. And yet, there is this intense fear of that future because it's unknown, and so because they're afraid of it, they'll do things they shouldn't do to keep it. Totally, so it's the moral,

so it's like, when I look and say, like, okay, why is it that my colleagues couldn't see the danger I saw? And it's like, well, they could. Yeah, they could see it. They just didn't think they could make a difference and their own fear of losing their identity. Their fear of being kicked out of their tribe. Yeah.

And I gotta tell you, that is a fear that I think is stronger than death. Like, is being kicked out of your tribe. Why is it that people will willingly die for their country versus being shamed? Some of that is this tribal thing, which in that case, it's important that we have people willing to fight.

But in the case of politics, when it's like, look, I got so many of the texts that are just like, you're a traitor. I got my copilot and Iraq sent me that he was ashamed to ever fly with me. Yeah, and I mean, this stuff is stuff that, you know, family members that would send things. It's stuff that I'll tell you, it would almost be easier to die than deal with that. What's a form of death losing your identity? Totally.

It totally is. Like, the only thing you're not losing is your physical presence somewhere, but everything else, all this other cloak. And so I think that's what happens in politics where people are too scared to lose that identity. And like you said, once you walk the plank, so once I started like really speaking out, once January 6th happened, I started prior to that. But then it's all the sudden like, okay, I can do this. It's not that hard. And by the way, yes, I can, if I look at all my Twitter comments, they're not that good. So I'm like, okay, I can do this. It's not that hard. And by the way, yes, I can, if I look at all my Twitter comments, they're not that good.

So I'm just not gonna look at them. And if I do this and you realize like, life is actually quite better when you all of a sudden are freed from fear. And I got freed from fear of losing my job. I was freed from fear of losing my tribe. And even though it was an intense couple of years, it was much more mentally healthy

for me than anything else. Well, just like physical courage is this muscle you have to build, you expose yourself to high stress situations. The problem, I think, with moral courage is that usually, like, to become the CEO, to make it that long in Congress, right, to get where you get, even in the military, to work your way up the ranks, you almost by definition are someone who has to go along to get along, right? You're actually building the opposite muscle. Like you think about someone like Tim Cook. The reason he's not doing these massively transgressive bold visionary things with Apple is that he's a career employee of Apple working under Steve

jobs. Like there was only room for one of those people. So you end up building this muscle that says, I don't really rock the boat. I suppress certain opinions. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student.

I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm going to be a very good student. I'm I've learned is very few people get those kind of big public moments, those opportunities, and a minuscule amount do it.

So if you think about now, if you've been in Congress for eight years, or you're just starting your congressional career and you have these visions of grandeur, because it takes a lot of ego to run for office, let's be honest. Yeah, and I think it's important to say, because nobody runs for office completely selflessly. There is a, there is a bit of ego and everything, including in me.

You go that 100 people are senators. I deserve to be one of the 100, or there's one most powerful person in the world. That's me. That is inherently a, a sort of a superior self-righteous point of view. Yeah, you think about it. In Congress, you represent 700,000 people. So you look around and go, boy, there's 35 soldier fields of people here.

I'm definitely the best one for this job, right? Yeah. You know, there's probably people better than me out there. But when you're invested in that career, whether it's the beginning, whether it's the middle, I mean, even at 12 years, I did 12 years, yeah. I could look and say, well, I could be a chairman of a committee next time. And there's always some further step.

And by then, you get into Sankin cost fallacy. Why did we not leave Vietnam after 10,000 men died? Because 10,000 men already died. How could we leave Vietnam now? Why is it? Well, I mean, Johnson was like, I won't be the coward that leaves, right? Even though that would have been the braver thing.

Right, it was a cowardly decision to stay. Yes. And so, you look at it now, let's say you've been in the GOP and you don't like what Donald Trump's been doing, but you've gone along with it because you've convinced yourself. Now all of a sudden, he's crossed a line where you say, I have to speak out. What you're two things are happening. Number one, you've never practiced that muscle. And number two, you

have to admit by admitting that, that everything you did already to enable him to this point was wrong. I mean, I've tried to come clean on that. Like, I voted against the first impeachment and I have deeper grits on that. You know, I was probably the most outspoken Republican House member against Trump, but there was a lot of stuff I swallowed and dealt with. And I think we have to be able to confront that and say it, disarms it. If you sit back and you're like, boy, I'm afraid somebody's gonna ask me why I voted against the first impeachment,

then you don't speak out, you don't speak up. And isn't that the tricky part of it though? Like if you hadn't, you wouldn't have been in the position. It's catch-one too. To speak out on January 6th and vote for the second impeachment potentially. Right. So the insidious part, this is the trap that Seneca finds himself in, right? Eventually,

he does conspire against Nero and sort of loses his life in the process, but he was always telling himself, if I go someone worse will take my spouse, right? And so, and he's not wrong, but morally, he also is wrong. And so it's this incredibly complicated moral dilemma that I don't envy the people who have to do. Well, it's like, okay, so let's look at the not to just inject, keep injecting politics, but look at the Republican debate, the Republicans that aren't Trump. Yeah. Like they're all saying, yes, I'll vote for Trump if he wins. Well, why? Because you have to say that to have a chance of winning the GOP primary.

But the fact that everybody is saying I'll vote for Trump is telling the base that Trump's actually not that bad. Is there all going to vote for him? Well, nobody wants to be the one who goes over the wall first. Right. Like, I've been there. It's not funny. You get shot. Yeah. I remember this one Republican Senator had

read some of my books and so he invited me. I had dinner or I'd breakfast in the Senate dining room and I was like he was sort of telling me privately all these sort of things about Trump. So why don't you say something and he goes see that guy over there and he points to Bob Corcor. And he goes he could have been ahead he could have been the head of the CIA or he could have been, he starts naming all these things and you get it and then you also go, but look, you're waiting for some more powerful person to come in and do this and it's like you're one of a hundred.

There's no one else, like, it's like everyone's kicking the problem upstairs and there's almost a certain amount of ego and going, no, I'm going to be the one that does something about it. And so that's like a sort of a good ego. It's like a good self-importance. There's kind of an absurdity in the people that take these moral stands for which they end up being martyred for. But if we don't have people that do it, then everyone just continues to go along. Well, and our system is set up that way.

So, you know, think about, so politics, obviously, an example, but think about like anything in any community. What is the old saying? It's like, if you're 10 steps ahead, you're a martyr, if you're five steps ahead, you're a leader. You know, something like that. Sure. But, you know, the question, when you say like, talk about, I call it the white horse syndrome

and I didn't come up with that. Probably you did and it came through. But the idea is like, everybody is waiting around because we since we were kids, something goes wrong at school, mom and dad are there or the principals there. There's always some level of something that fixes things. Yeah.

We get attacked on 9-11, the military is gonna to protect us. There's a point in your adult life when whether it's in your community, whether it's in your home, whether it's in anything, where you are the white horse, you're the guy on the white horse, or the girl on the white horse.

And I'd come to realize, as you mentioned, literally, people that I worked with in the house had this idea that somehow this whole kind of corruption that's happening was going to naturally work itself out magically because it always had. I was looking around going, if anything's going to happen, it's from us because we're the people that can do it. We're the only ones that can do it.

And we're sitting here waiting for what? There's not like a super-congress that we elect. You know, that's going to come along. And I think that's a lesson that I think people have to take, whether you're ever in Congress or not, it doesn't matter. But in your community and your home and your neighborhood and your friendships is like, if there's something that's not working, there's not somebody else going to come and fix it. It's you. When it goes back to you're in the parking lot and something happens. Right. Somebody is going gonna have to deal with this

Like somebody's gonna get their hands dirty or their shirt bloody like somebody has to do something and you There's not an infinite supply of people other than you who will do it and and when you got elected to do it or You know you signed an oath to do it or whatever it is like at some point you got to go Oh, yeah, this is what they've painted before. And you gotta reread the oath. Yeah. And say, like, this is, sorry, doesn't it? All right, we'll wrap up.

We've got like five minutes. Yeah, whatever we need. It's good. No, I think the other interesting thing is that, especially when you talk to people in politics, is that they all also hate it, right? They hate it. Like, it's a shitty job.

It is a shitty job, yeah. And so the irony is they don't want to lose the job that five seconds ago, they were complaining about, right? So there's this paradox too of like, we were comfortable with the status quo, even that we're uncomfortable with. That's how afraid we are of the future. But if we had a little more confidence like to go like, whatever it is, I'll figure it out.

I'm not going to end up under a bridge somewhere. There's plenty of other people who are making a living and surviving. I'm going to be okay. Even if I'm humiliated, I'm going to be okay. But there's almost boils down to a sort of a lack of belief in our own ability to deal with the future. I cannot explain to you how right you are, particularly when it comes to, I mean, my experience, members of government, how absolutely right you are that there is that fear. And I'll say I had it where it's like, if you talk to any member of really any political thing

that's me, announce they're not gonna run again. The biggest fear is not really not being an office. The biggest fear is the second after you announce it, having regrets. So you think about it, because you're like, now you're already like the cards out of the horse, the horse is out of the barn.

And the winduck. Yeah, and so, but that's exactly what that is. And the second you announce it, it's fine. But it's that deep-seated fear of like, I don't know what comes next. And all I know is that, you know, my unique experience in the house is one thing that hopefully people can learn from.

But I'm sure that has replicated a thousand ways in everybody's life on any different level. Well, imagine you leave the Air Force and you run for office and you lose. Now, in the 80s, who laughed the good thing to do that, you know? But that's life, right? Like sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

There's this great quote I love from Mark's Rez, is like, how will you meet the future? And he says, like, but the same weapons that you met the past with. And going, like, oh, yeah, I've been through all sorts of things in my life. I'm going to be fine. This might be the hardest thing that I've gone through or maybe it's not. Like it turns out it could be not as crazy as you think, but to have the courage to go like, this is the right thing and I'll figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just to embrace the, I don't

know. And I'm going to say this as somebody that doesn't do this, but like embrace kind of the excitement of the fear, the excitement of the challenge, the excitement of the change. You know, it's harder, I think, as I'm 45 now, as I get older, I have a kid, I have a family, I can't go be as reckless as I could have been younger. Sure. Not reckless, but more like kind of changing. But I think there is some excitement in, I think of everything I've done when I made the decision to go into the military, that scared the living shit out of me.

And because I'm like, I made a 12 year commitment to the military, right? I may not have liked it, but I was in for 12 years. I mean, I was in for 20, I've been in, but that was the commitment was 12 years. But I also look back and say, those were my proudest moments. Sure.

The time I voted in Congress against my party, not just the impeachment, all the other bills, those are the proudest moments I look at. Not when I went along with the crowd, it was when I stood alone. That's the irony of cognitive dissonance is that you almost never regret the scary brave thing that you did

because your mind won't let you. Right, so you think you're gonna be like, oh, I don't wanna look back on it. But no, you're gonna look back at it and your mind's gonna tell you it was the greatest thing that you ever did, right? Yup, yup. And so it's actually, to look back at it and your mind's going to tell you it was the greatest thing that you ever did, right? And so it's actually, it's scary up until the moment that you do it.

And then you're so busy doing it, that it's not scary anymore. Yeah, that's right. And like you said, I mean, how many times, again, particularly in Congress, but I think in anything, if you make a tough decision, you make a change, you kind of jump into the water, you're probably not going you kind of jump into the water, you're probably not gonna end up living under a bridge bagging for food. Yes. You're probably not.

Now, maybe you will. I don't know, I can't make a promise. I don't, you know, assume me if you do, but like chances are, whether you make more or less, here's what I've learned in my life, man. The more money I make makes zero freaking difference on how happy I am. Yes. And now that doesn't mean I want to go back

to making what I used to. Because now it becomes a different calculus. But I have never gotten a pay raise. Like I make more now than I made in Congress. Never got a pay raise that made me appreciably happier. I've had lifestyle changes that have made me happier. I've had relationships that have made me happier. I had decisions that have made me happier. Never money. I think have made me happier. I've had decisions that have made me happier.

Never money. I think that's a great place to stop comments, but thank you so much. Oh, this is awesome. Thank you. I'm glad you did. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and ad free on Amazon Music.

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