The Daily Stoic - Adrian Grenier On How Turning To Philosophy Saved His Life

Episode Date: September 9, 2023

Ryan speaks with Adrian Grenier in the first of a two-part episode about their parallel career and life trajectories, what it’s really like to be famous, the rock-bottom moment that led to Adrian taking control of his life, why he is striving to be a better father than his own, why farming is the only profession for a philosopher, and more.Adrian Grenier is an actor, director, producer, podcaster, entrepreneur, and musician. He is best known for his role as Vincent Chase on the show Entourage and his roles in The Devil Wears Prada and Clickbait, as well as his directorial debut Shot in the Dark, which chronicled his search for his estranged father, as well as Teenage Paparazzo. He is currently producing a documentary series called Earth Speed in which he seeks out better ways for humanity to use its resources and capabilities to make positive impacts on the planet. Adrian’s philanthropic work, including his promotion of sustainable living with his brand SHFT.com and his work with the Lonely Whale Foundation, garnered him the appointment of a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations Environment Programme in 2017. You can follow him on Instagram @adriangrenier and on Twitter @adriangrenier.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Bosh Legacy returns, now streaming. Matt has been taken. Oh God. His daughter is in the hands of a madman. What are the police have been looking for me? But nothing can stop a father. We want to find her just as much as you do. I doubt that very much.

From doing what the law can't. And we have to do this the very way. You have to. I don't. Bosh Legacy. Watch the new season now streaming exclusively on FreeVie. Emily, do you remember when One Direction called it a day? I think you'll find there are still many people who can't talk about it.

Well luckily, we can. A lot. Because our new season of terribly famous is all about the first One Directioner to go it alone. Zayn Malik. We'll take you on Zayn's journey from Shilad from Bradford to being in the world's biggest boy band and explore why when he reached the top, he decided to walk away. Follow terribly famous wherever you get your podcasts.

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Endbridge. Life takes energy. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time.

Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoke Podcast. I was at this party, I'm not sure what it was, it was a while ago, and sort of hanging out. There's a bunch of fancy people there. And it was time to go. And Adrian Grenier walked up to me and said, hey, can I have a ride home? And I said, what? He said, yeah, can I have a ride home?

I think we're neighbors. And I said, what? That can't possibly be right. I live like in the middle of nowhere. And it turns out we sort of were neighbors. He hadn't moved out to where I live where the painted porch is, out in Bastrop, Texas, which is about 30 to 45 minutes from Austin. And he and I were on sort of similar tracks.

We're sort of on different. It's a very big county. We're not exactly next to each other, but it's small enough. It's a small town. We live in the same small town. And I did drive him back and we've gotten to know each other quite a bit since. We bumped into each other in town a bunch of different times. It was funny. He just recently moved out and he asked if he could use the office a couple times

to use our Wi-Fi. This is during the pandemic when there was some zoom stuff, when people are doing a lot more zoom stuff because the internet is the one thing they don't tell you when you move out to the country is that the internet is going to be terrible. And it is quite terrible. So I totally understood, I used my office a bunch. Anyways, he sends me a text one day and he says, hey, can I have a package delivered to the bookstore and I go, yeah, sure. And I don't think twice about it.

And then he gets the package delivered, it's the whole thing. And a couple weeks later, I see like an announcement in the news that Adrian Grenier has been gotten engaged. And I go to my wife and I go, hey, did you know Adrian got engaged in that cool? And she goes, what the hell do you think he was getting delivered to the bookstore? And it turns out that when he was getting delivered to the bookstore and it turns out that's when he was getting delivered to the bookstore

was the engagement ring and of course she and all the employees knew all about it and it did not occur to me Why someone would be getting a package delivered what it would mean all of that so it was it was funny to play a small role in that and he and I become friends and shared farming and shared ranching tips and practices, and hey, you've got a guy that can do this, you've got a guy that can do this. And we've become friends, he's also friends with my end-laws because they live close to him too. And so this was a long time coming, he and I had been trying to get this done, and he was

going to have me on his podcast, which is also awesome called Man Up Right as part of his Earth Speed docus series. So we just decided, you know what, you come out to the studio there next to the pain and porch, we'll sit down and we'll just talk for a really long time, which we did. This is one of the longest episodes we've ever done on the Daily Stuck. So I'm going to split it up into two episodes. If you don't know who I'm talking about, by Stoic. So I'm going to split it up into two episodes. If you don't know who I'm talking about, by the way, I know I'm just sort of Adrian because that's how I'm thinking about him. But Adrian is a spectacular actor. He was the star of Entourage. He was in the Devil, whereas Prada, Marauders, Drive Me Crazy. He was in the new Netflix

series Clickbait. And you've seen him a million times. He's had this unique experience of getting famous playing a famous person and then made a documentary about it called teenage paparazzi. That's great too. He was a good will ambassador for the United Nations environmental program. He has a charity called the Lonely Whale Foundation where he advocates for a reduction in single use plastics. And I'm excited to bring you this interview with the one and only Adrian Grenier. You can follow him on Instagram at Adrian Grenier. You can follow his nature-based lifestyle platform at Earth Speed. And you can check out his podcast, Man Up Right on his YouTube channel at Earth Speed, Adrian Crainier. When did you move here? Man, it's been about, so almost two and a half years.

To the backdrop. Yeah. Austin, I've been here for almost six years. Okay. Yeah, five and a half years. And I've been coming to Austin for over a decade. Yeah. And I had a little bungalow on the east side.

So I'd come here quite often. I'd come here at least once or twice a year for Southby because I had an artist run music label. So we used to do showcases at Arlen's studio every year. And then I just met a bunch of cool people, made some friends, and started a beer company with many investors from Austin and just fell in love at the town. I think we have the same almost exact trajectory because I basically moved to Austin

from New York and then to East to the East side which I loved and then we were like well we're going to live in Texas we should live in Texas and end up. We've come a long way, baby. I'm having, from Dove Charney here, you know? I was gonna ask, I'm gonna ask you about that. I know. So, well, we started this interview, right? Yeah, yeah. So, I guess in no particular order,

we are on my parallel paths and how long have you been here? I moved here in 2013, so 10 years. Not, to Texas, 2013. Oh yeah. And then we got our place out here in 2015. Okay, yeah, you were a few years before. Yeah, the first weekend we moved here. So it's like we moved here on, I think it was Memorial Day,

and it starts like raining. It's like, okay, on I think it was Memorial Day and it starts like raining It's like okay. I don't think like Memorial Day lots of rain starts raining raining raining raining raining and then Then there's like a tornado watch and our house has like a safe room in it So we're like cool. Oh cool in in the safe. So that like I've not lived in the South that long So now I'm like conquered down from a tornado where you like the, the, the alerts or whatever on your phone. And then it's like, damn has burst, move to higher ground. Damn has burst, move to higher ground. And there's, there was an earthen dam

in the lost mine's park up here. What's it called? Bastrop State Park. Oh. Is it still there? Well, it burst. And all the water flowed from the park down into Deheach and Village and into Bastrop and stuff.

It was this crazy flood. They just rebuilt the dam, but all that happened the first. And then that summer, then the park on on fire. So it was quite a- Were you seriously questioning your choice? Totally. Yeah, yeah.

And then anyone that moves, like I think you think it's going to be fun to like move out to the country and you get part and and it is fun. Like the first like couple weeks you do it. And then these are butterflies. Everything goes wrong and you have no none of the skills required to fix it. And so you're just completely overwhelmed and you're like, I think I made a huge mistake. And and then you, you huge mistake. And then you realize the people sold you what you bought because they were tired of it. And because they deferred all the maintenance on it.

And so all of that bill comes due for you like the first month and year. Yeah, everything starts falling apart. They won. Yeah, I was in there. But so, okay, so just in terms of of the timeline you moved here and then you is that what got you interested in stoicism? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah, my first book, without imagine you would have to reach into, you know, book of the Stoics books and Mark is really is in order to help you get through life in the country.

Yes, although, so, okay, so my first book on Stoicism came out right, the year after we moved to Austin, so I was living in East Austin and that came out. And then I wrote a chunk of Ego's the enemy and the Daily Stook on the Ranch. That was like those were the first projects that I did there. That's what I was getting at. Yes, yes, yes.

So it was in college and then I was studying and researching it and that was my life. But then I had that was what I was intellectually interested in. But then my life was very, very different because I worked for DevCharnate. Right. Yeah. Right, so you took a little side. I took a break. Yeah, you worked.

Or I think, and you can probably relate to this, there was a very big divergence between what, who I thought I was, and what I was interested in, and who I was aspiring to be, and then what I did for a living, and what my work was like every day. Where people would pay you to do. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

So that was, yeah, that was, that was, and in my head, like in retrospect, that was a, that was like a short period and then actually a very long period. And it, you rationalize and justify things because it seems crazy to walk away, if things seems crazy to quit. It's just supposed to be one more thing or whatever. And then it's just one more job.

Yeah, it's a lot getting out is a lot longer, takes a lot longer than you think it's going to take. Yes, yes. We are so alike. So you dropped out of school, I dropped out of school. We all, we were hipstered intellectuals and then we ended up becoming, you know, media sellouts, I guess. Yes. And then we ended up here. And then we ended up here. No, I had the same trajectory because I resisted entourage and Hollywood and fame. And I had a lot of chances to become famous

and I said no all the time. I used to not, like I used to blow off auditions that I knew I was gonna get because I didn't wanna do it. And then I got so broke that it was like, all right, I compromised my values a little bit and then found success. And you have to rationalize it.

Otherwise you're gonna be miserable. And then the more you rationalize it. Otherwise, you're gonna be miserable. And then the more you rationalize it, the more it becomes your identity, the more you start to appreciate it, just the lifestyle and the, you know, the materialism, then suddenly you become it. I think I wanted it more. Like I think I was like,

I'm a little bit younger than you, so I watched those shows, right? So like I remember, I worked for this writer Tucker Maxx when I was in college. And I went to live with him this summer after my sophomore year of college. He was like, I just saw this screenplay. And I wanted to be a writer.

Yeah, I wanted to be a writer. And so I was like, he just saw this screenplay, they were turning it into a movie, had all these projects going on. And so I remember, he was like, just come live with me for the summer in LA. And I think Entourage had just come out,

it was the first of the second season. And so I'm like, this gonna be like Entourage. Like that's what it's gonna be like. And then he lived that, I ruined Ryan Holiday. He lived at Crenshaw and Pico. So as far like in essentially the ghetto. And I slept on a mattress on the floor of the living room with like his dogs. Like it was as unglamorous as I remember day, a dog just walked into the front yard

of a front yard as glamorous because it was concrete. Like it was like a chain-linked concrete paddock and this dog that was clearly from a dogfighting ring just walked into the front yard and died. And you're like, I was like, this is not the Los Angeles lifestyle that I thought I was moving to. So I think there was a part of, I was an assistant at a talent management agency, and that was really, so I thought I was gonna be this whole crazy, cool thing,

and it was the opposite of that in every way. Right, well you're young, you know, I was sleeping on couches myself, you know, hanging out in offices just to use the Wi-Fi. You know, in fact, I was in Mexico before entourage. I have $1,000 to my name. I was making a documentary, but I was like trying to sneak in a Cuba to make a documentary about Cuban hip hop. And I was just like at my lowest in life.

I needed to like go home and get a real job this time. And I got a call to about the show, Entourage, and ended up like having my agent send me a ticket, like fly me to LA reluctantly to sleep on my manager's couch. And I just, grin, I like close my eyes, like held my breath on my manager's couch and I just, grin, I closed my eyes, like held my breath and just swallowed it even though it wasn't who I was. Ultimate.

Who did you think you were? I was a filmmaker, I was a musician. I acted because when I was younger, we used to make movies and on the high eight cameras, like me and my friends on a Friday night. And you do what you needed to do. You'd hold the boom or you'd act or you'd hold the camera because there's only a few people.

So you all play many different roles. So I was acting really at a necessity, but it wasn't, I didn't want to be famous. I didn't want to be, I didn't want that to be my, you know, I was always uncomfortable being the center of anything to be honest. I like to be sort of in the back. Do you think that's kind of maybe why they wanted you

is that you weren't that famous to be? 100%, 100% because I said no to the audition multiple times. And they were like, who's this kid who we can't get? Because if there's a celebrity out there, they're already famous and they're not going to do this show, this pilot show, without getting paid more than the budget. And everybody who wanted it was too thirsty. They were just desperate for it. So they didn't feel, you know, celebrities don't beg for a part. So I was the opposite of begging. I was very indifferent, nonchalant, cool, swave, whatever,

and I think that worked. Interesting. Yeah, it is weird. You think that when you don't want it as bad, you seem to get the things that when you were trying, like the Buddhist call it willful will, like the harder you're trying, the sort of the worst you are at stuff. And that role specifically sort of, it's weird to be playing a thing that you're not.

It's like when, it's weird about that role, it's kind of like when you listen to like rappers first albums and they're talking about like flying out of the chest. They couldn't have possibly afforded yet. So you have to have some sense that but but so what that really is is like the sort of confidence and the the identity of the thing before you've actually the faking it to you make it of it. And you not being interested because you're interested in something else sort of mimics the attitude that that person would have. And look, I think you got a

fake it to you make it on some level. Sure. That's what acting is. Sure. I always think in terms of personal development, you're not the thing you want to be, but you have to try it on. You have to fake acting as if. As if. Right. Even do an extreme version that may be kind of phony

and fake and feel awkward until it becomes more familiar than adjust it into something more natural. And the next thing you know, it's like what I do with chess. chess. When I was younger, I wanted to be, I wanted to be the type of guy that drank whiskey, listen to jazz and played chess. Right. And I just, you saw those somewhere and they meant something to you.

Be an ex or something, I don't know. And then I didn't know how to play jazz. I didn't like the taste of whiskey and I was, you know, I didn't listen to jazz yet. So it was like all weird and, you know, I, you know, abstract for me. So then what did I do? Just went to jazz clubs, ordered whiskey,

inserted plain chess. Next thing, you know, I got pretty good at chess. I started to really enjoy jazz and men, that whiskey went down smooth and I became that guy just by, you know, I got pretty good at chess. I started to really enjoy jazz and man, that whiskey went down smooth and I became that guy just by, you know, faking it for long enough. But did you, but that's the other thing is like, was that actually who you were? Like, I think for me too, there was this sense,

as I grew up in New Orleans, so Southern California sort of had this allure. And then I found that a good chunk of my 20s was sort of being drawn towards things, not because I was interested in them, but because people were interested in them. And you're like those people or you wanted to be a part of that. Yeah, there's this philosopher René Girard, he has this thing called memetic desire, you know what this concept is. Yeah, yeah. It's René Girard, he has this thing called memetic desire, do you know what this concept is? Yeah, yeah.

It's the idea that like, you don't know what you want so you want what other people want. Yeah. And so like, it wasn't like, I didn't even, a lot of the things I ended up doing, I didn't even know existed, right? I ended up doing them because someone was like, that's a thing that exists that you could be good at

and I want you to do that thing. And I was like, okay. Are they in body cool? Yes. You know exists that you could be good at. And I want you to do that thing. And I was like, okay. Are they in body cool? Yes. You know enough that you're like, oh, I want to dress like that guy or be a rock star and live the lifestyle and be on entourage. Yeah, you just want something better

than the life you come from or more. Interesting than the life you come from. Or you want what's associated with it, which for me I think was like, there was sort of like a dad energy in it of like approval slash like they support you, they see your potential, things that I didn't really get growing up. So I was like, I was like, oh, well, if these father like figures are telling me I should do it, I should do it.

But also just the human drive to explore and try. The frontier of your own life, looking at what you could be and try it all, try it all a little bit. Well, I noticed like I had a series of very powerful, but like controversial bosses. And my sister has the same. What's your father was in the picture? Yeah, he was, but he wasn't

like some sort of abusive or distant figure, but he sort of loomed large in our house. Do you know what I mean? And was kind of, I don't even know how to describe. I'm still actually sort of working on figuring it out myself, but my sister and I both have had very similar bosses and very similar sort of like next to the throne jobs. And you think it's reflective of your father or... It doesn't strike me as a coincidence. Right. Do you know what I mean?

Right. Because you could work and do anything. Right. And very few people tend to get those kinds of jobs slash roles. So the fact that we both ended up doing it, I've always found to be somewhat illustrated. You know, it's like you're always looking for something that you didn't get, or they're sort of a daddy, daddy, tell me you're proud of me, kind of a vibe. Sure.

Yeah. Which can be very motivating, but also very, can take you far from where you should go or where you deep down wanna go. Right, yeah, I mean, I've been exploring a lot about father wounds and how they manifest and how we recreate them to try and overcome

or earn approval or daddy don't leave. In my case, you know, all that stuff comes out. I talked about this in my stillness book, but like at the height of his golf career, Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer in the world. Maybe the greatest, most dominant athlete in any sport, and he seriously considers leaving to join the Navy Seals, like he tries to make it

as a Navy Seal, which seems insane on its face until you realize this. When did he do this? This is like 10, 15 years ago. Did he? Yeah. I did not know that. That's how he fucks up his knees and his back is like, I don't know. Jumping out of airplanes, he's sort of,

so why he's so much stronger than he actually needs to be. And he fucks up his knee in one case in these sort of training exercises where he gets his knee kicked out. Like they're, you know, like you're clearing a room, like he's doing his military exercise, and some of the action that kicks out his knee. It all seems insane. You're like, why would you go from golf, which doesn't seem to be the super aggressive physical sports in Navy SEALS?

Well, his father was a green beret in Vietnam, and a complete asshole, and a sort of dominating abusive figure in Tiger Woods' life. And you're like, oh, you want it. Even though his dad wasn't even around anymore, there was some part of like, I'm, it doesn't matter how much I have, how much I've done, I'm not anything until I've done what my dad's done.

Yeah. It's very, very Freudian. Oh, well, you know, I was thinking about this interview with you and I in it sort of clicked I was like great because I have a series called Man Up right and it's all about because now I'm a father right you're a father so like how old now he's two months. Okay. Yeah. During the shit. But not wanting to repeat the patterns, wanting to show up as a better man,

and a better father for my son, and managing just knowing that no matter what you do, on some level, you're gonna instill some things that, you know, you're not immune. You can't reach perfection. No. Right? So you're kind of stumbled through it in many ways? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, everyone has, there's no people that do not have some issues with their childhood. I think, so I'm sort of letting, not letting yourself off the hook, but being kind to yourself going like, this isn't like a thing you can win. Yeah, and it's not zero sum. There's no right and wrong, right?

You're in a continuum of learning yourself. And part of learning yourself is through imitation. You know, when you're younger, you look up and you, I mean, I'm doing the imitation with my son right now, like faces and tongue and on the whole thing. That's where they think empathy comes from. The ability to go like, oh, they're making this face at me, they're having their mirroring my emotions back to me.

So that's what my emotions are. And so I think if you have parents that are bad at that, that's why you can become bad at that. Yeah, wow. Huh. So Tiger Woods, I think, while maybe his dad was an asshole, I don't know, we were still instilled in him some drive to achieve, you know, I don't know if his bodily physique, you know, heights or... Well, there's a story you might like, so he's like, you know,

the famous story is like Tiger Woods is golfing at like two years old, right? And there's a story you might like, so he's like, you know, the famous story is like Tiger Woods is golfing at like two years old, right? And there's a story that Tiger Woods, there's some things that you don't quite understand until you have kids. So like, there's a story that what his dad would do is strap him into the like high chair and then just hit golf balls in the garage for like hours and hours and hours.

And then one day Tiger Woods gets out of the thing, picks up a golf club and hits it, right? And I remember I first heard that, and I was like, oh, that's what it takes, like, to be great. And then I go like, who just forces their kid to watch them hit golf balls for hours? Like, that must suck for the kid. Right, you sort of go like, oh, that's weird.

But there's a story where, like, because he started golfing, so young, he became this sort of, like, prodigy-sash media sensation. So, So like maybe at three or four he was on like the Merv Griffin show. So one of those like old daytime like talk shows and so he's like showing how he can golf and everyone's like clapping cheering. And some actor was the other guests. It was like Gregory Packer, you know, someone like that. I'm forgetting who it was, but they're watching this, and everyone's clapping and cheering, and this is amazing.

And supposedly, Gregory Peck leans over to the host and goes, this isn't cool at all. And he goes, what are you talking about? And he's like, I've seen too many child actors and performers over the years. And he's like, I know what it took to make this kid do it. And he's like, this won't end well. And so for like 40 years, it doesn't, it seems, or let's say 35 years, it seems that,

that's totally forgotten because Tiger Woods seems like the most successful, most well-adjusted, like, greatest athlete ever. He was performing. Yes, he was just doing what he had been molded to do. And there's actually a great book I have in the books that I'll give it to you. Have you read range by David Epstein? He's actually this really great sort of parenting book in disguise. The whole book is basically a contrast

between Tiger Woods and Roger Federer. So Tiger Woods is supposed to be like, that's what it takes to be great. And Roger Federer like doesn't pick up a tennis racket seriously until he's like 19 or something. Like he doesn't do that, but he plays lots, he has this more like easy going childhood with a lot of different experimentation.

He plays all the sports, you know, his identity isn't tied up and whether he wins or loses. And you know, arguably they're't tied up and whether he wins or loses. And, you know, arguably they're the two equally dominant athletes, but one doesn't hate himself and blow up his life. And the other does. Yeah, I really am feeling into the fact that I can't teach my kid anything. I can't, you know, show them and make them do anything. I can mostly live by example and be the best man I can be. And they, they will see that and emulate it and then hopefully become their own person.

And really something I'm learning. And I think it's, it's, it's related is true sovereignty, like being in charge of your choices. Yes. Right. sovereignty, like being in charge of your choices, right? And not just pretending so that you look cool or pleasing your friends or making mommy and daddy proud or doing the work that your boss is going to give you a raise for all these things. And it wasn't until recently that I have found that I'm truly making my own choices. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling,

the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on. So do sit back and enjoy. Briden and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ghosts aren't real. At least as a journalist, that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom. But ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house

is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too. Including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. And it gets even stranger. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunting my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother. It was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. From wandering in Pineapple Street Studios comes Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets

overwhelming coincidence and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondering app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wondering Plus. and one dream plus. will be pleased with you, proud of you, like the illusion of success or that's a bling. Like compare to actors, right? One who really wants the director, dad, to be proud of them, like them, approve of them, you know, please with them, that's the actor who will do anything and everything and will not quit. And then the one who's like self-motivated, self-contained,

has their own sense of what, like, ultimately one is I think more sustainable and well-adjusted and healthy, but the other is more conducive to like being controlled, being directed, you know, and also being motivated. And so like, these parts of ourselves are rewarded, you know, and also being motivated. And so like, you, you, these, these parts of ourselves are rewarded, you know, um, and then it becomes this feedback loop. And so it's really hard to break out of it. In some ways, you almost, you either need, either needs to really not work for you, or you need to achieve a certain amount of success. And then you have the power to go, I just don't wanna be that way anymore

and you can't make me. Yeah, well it's tough because there's a certain discipline inherent within other people telling you what to do or trying to please them, it's motivating. There's motivation in it, like I just want to be loved or I don't leave me so I'm gonna do a song and dance so that you like me and stay versus having to find the motivation and the driving force without all of that neurotic layer.

Yeah. And that's something, frankly, that I'm working on is like, how do I continue to achieve make, well, it's really more financial. Like, how do I continue to bring in money even though I'm not playing those games? Yes. And I'm truly making a decision to live a life that is what I really, who I am, yes, is that really who you were?

Like who I really am is me now. Well, growing up my parents were very interested in like what people did, how much money they made, their proximity or adjacent jacentness to fame or attention or whatever, right? Like, oh, they'd be like, we went on vacation and wine. You know who saw the beach? Like, insert famous person, right?

Or like, this person lives in this neighborhood and you know who else lives in that neighborhood, right? So like, even now my parents will be like, you know, we just found out so-and-so move to our town. So there's a lot of that, right? And so I don't think in retrospect, it's coincidence that there was some part of me that moved to Los Angeles, that wanted to be on the bestseller list, that wanted to make money, that wanted to have certain people put in my books, or to even just be an author, right? So there was this part of me that was motivated by those things

to even just be an author, right? So there was this part of me that was motivated by those things that are really not healthy motivations and really not meaningful motivations, but they're obviously good. They're powerful motivations, right? And so it's been a process of shedding that over time. Like I still like what I do and I still wanna do it and I still wanna do it at a high level,

but I want to not be doing it. I've tried to become more and more as associated in different to those sort of things that are not really up to me and be more, do I think it's good, did it accomplish what I was trying to do, did I work hard on it. And the weird paradoxical thing is that I've actually done better, the less I have been interested in those things. Now, it could be a coincidence or it could just be, I was so motivated by those other things that it's just completely. Well, what's your metric for better? I mean, I just mean, even by those old metrics, like, okay. So my last book, Discipline's Destiny, is my, is the book that I have checked on the sales

the least, where I actively made decisions that made hitting the seller list less likely. I sold copies through my store, which don't count for the list. And my publisher was like, you know, if you do this, it will affect where you end up. So a bunch of stuff like that, right? And then the way I wrote the book, how you- Are you not getting the accolades from the outside world? Are you still are? Well, what I'm saying is that so as I've gone on,

I've optimized slash aimed at those things less, but actually sold more, gotten a good chunk of those things anyway, but are they being counted by the outside metrics? So it's a certain degree. It's this weird thing where like, it's kind of like the harder your aiming, it's like actually golf is a good metaphor. The harder you're trying to hit the ball and golf,

the more you're gonna flank it. The more you're gonna flank it, or just miss it all together, right? And so it's this kind of weird thing where you have to try less hard to do better. And I've found that in my writing career. Right, it's a meditation. So I'm selling better, the less I'm thinking about

trying to make something that sells. Right. Or trying to spend all my energy on the sales side of things rather than the making stuff of things. I don't know if people can hear that, but there's literally a parade going by the door. That one of the wonderful slash strange things about being in a small town. You need to get a trailer and take this on the road. Do a moving podcast.

Oh, we should be doing the podcast as part of the parade. Exactly. We can announce it. It's a, that's one of the things I really like about living here though is just like, it's just a totally different, you, there's just aren't parades in, I mean, there's the Macy's Day Parade, let's say, but like, there's not just like, hey, all the neighbors are getting together for a pioneer festival next week. And by the way, anybody,

the Macy's Day Parade, you can't just go walk it. Yeah, you can't participate in this. Get your truck, throw on a trailer, put some balloons up, and you're in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, no, it's amazing. It's like living in a hundred years ago or so. Well, and my appreciation for a former equipment now

has, is that an all-time high? I got a tractor, by the way. Nice. We may have the same one, Braden picked it out for me. Oh, really? No, I don't think so. I bought mine from the Cowboys who sold me the ranch. Oh, I thought he helped you pick one out.

No, no, it was one of his. I think he might have ripped me off, but. Branded? No, no, no, no. No, no, I thought, remember you had he. He was helping me decide whether or not I should buy it. Oh, okay, got it, got it. Yeah, yeah, maybe.

Anyways, it's fine. It's actually, it's not, it's in the shop right now. And in the shop means I'm trying to fix it. Oh. Which takes a lot longer, I'll tell you. But I'm trying to, because he's old. I'm trying to fix it. Of. Which takes a lot longer, I'll tell you. But I'm trying to, because he's always trying to learn how to do it. What would you get a John Deere?

No, it's, I don't even know. It's orange. That's what I know. Probably yeah. Okay. So my appreciation for farm equipment has piked. And I don't remember what it was that they have a parade here where it's literally just

to tell the stuff. It's like like big farm equipment and hydraulic machines and drill drills. And they just roll through the town and you're just like, wow, look at this. So cool. Well, yeah. And then you'll meet someone and they drive like the dustiest, crappiest, oldest truck. And then, and then they have like a $200,000 tractor. And you're like, oh, okay. Different priorities. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very expensive. That's why I put it. I just,

I mean, I've lived out here eight years. And for, hey, I used like my ATV has this like trailer that hooks up to it. And you back the trailer up. And then it flip it. It's like a it's a non mechanized way of picking up the hay bells. It's really cool. The physics on this thing are like insane. Okay. So it just so basically you you you hook it up to your ATV. It's a dump truck of sorts.

No, no. So it's it's like this. It just looks like a trailer that you would like put a boat on or something, just like a standard. It doesn't look fancy, you hook it up to your ATV, you back it up to the hay bell, like, let's say this is sideways, the round bell, you back it up, and then you slam on the,

like you lock the brakes, and then it folds, the trailer folds over the bail, and then these two spikes. To inertia through, it's over. Because you're backing up, but the wheels can't move. So it's got this hinge in it. I'll show you a video. I see.

Are you doing it yourself? Yeah, yeah. And then, so, because I want to come out for a proper tour of the farm and see what you're up to out there. By the way, we've been neighbors for how many years and we've yet, I know. I've been to your place. You've been in my place, yeah. Your place is closer. You've been keeping for how many years and we've yet I know why I've been I've been to your place You've been in my place. Yeah, your place is closer

You've been keeping me away from I don't know what you're doing out there. Yeah, yeah, it turns out I actually like live in So there's this kind so this one is cool You just back that up and then it stabs the bail and then you crank it by hand and it it goes like that Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but there's a lot of tension and it's kind of sketchy. We have a, I just have a, basically a spike that goes on the back of the tractor. You just poke it and lift it and move it. That's what I'm doing my one.

That's what I did yesterday. But for like eight years, I did this old way because I didn't trust myself to not break, to not take care of a tractor. So are you actually mowing your fields for hay or you're, you're, you're get it delivered. I think the put the head and that's for the cows for the cows. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. How many cows you have now? 15. Yeah. And, and just cows. I have, with cows, donkeys, we had goats, do we have a wild dog incident? And then the dog. Yeah, that's the main predator out here.

The dog killed the goats. Like a pack of wild dogs killed three goats. Pock. Brutally. Oh, man. It was horrible. And we actually had them when we lived in East Austin. So they were like more than pets.

Oh, family. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I'm sorry. It was a, that is what I was jumping ahead. But I have found that living out here has been, like the Stoke's talking about momentum oil, like this practice of meditating and motel. The proximity to death, even when you are trying very hard and doing your best, is,

you're talking my language. I mean, yes, very eye opening and life changing. All day, every day. Yeah, have you lost anything yet? Of course, we just, our llama just had a stillbirth. Ooh. It was brutal.

You know, we're all of a sudden, you know, Jordan's has, you know, elbows inside trying to coax this poor baby out and it was, it was real baby out and it was alive. And it's heartbreaking. And a year, Lama's gestation is a year. And we just had our child. So it's just like, this isn't this abstract thing that animals do.

Like you're like, oh, that's a mammal thing. Yeah. And we're not that different. Yeah, and so I'm working on a project. It's a television series that I created about grief. Oh. And for too long, we've been in the cities. Yeah.

And cities are designed to mask you from those realities. Of course. They're an escape from armortality, right? And here on the ranch and farm within nature, you are definitely hitting up against that razor's edge. Everything is trying to survive, trying to live, something dies and something else eats it. It's for food, right?

We know the longhorn skulls that are on the wall in the bookstore. Like, so we bought the place and then the neighbor and guy had the cows and then he got old and he wanted to leave so he was like, do you want to buy my cows? So we got these cows, which he assured us were like, he's like, oh, they're like seven, eight, nine,

10 years old and it's like immediately after we got them, they all started dying of old age. Like they were like 20 years old. Like, like immediately after we got them they all started dying of old age like they were like 20 years old like like I have that is one of the slaker one of the humbling things we've learned out here is just like the your neighbors are really nice but they will also trick the shit out of you if they want to get rid of something a deal is a deal exactly so we bought these we bought these old cows and then so like one of them, like one of them got so old, it couldn't eat anymore.

Like so it's like slowly dying. So, you know, the vet comes out and he's like, I think you got a little more time. Well, bless you, we're like, okay. And then like, you know, flash forward a couple of months later, it's like definitely near death. It's not eating. And then you're called a vet.

And the vet's like, okay, I could come out like next week and you know, it'll be like $ okay, I could come out next week and it'll be $250 all I put it down. But you should just take care of it. And I go, well, what does that mean? It's like, you have a gun right, you should take care of it. And I was like, okay. And so now I have to go put down.

Brother, my own cow. And I ultimately end up doing it, but there's a bullet hole in the skull of that cow because I had to put it there. And it's a different relationship with life. Because you didn't want to spend that money. No, no, it's not like that. It's like because you wanted to yourself.

No, no, it was like, am I gonna let this, it's not the $250, do I want to let this thing suffer for an additional week of the week of the event, right? The vet's like, I'm busy, I'll come out, but the animal's going to suffer in the meantime. Well, more to the point, not only is being in charge of your choice making about your own life and how you be, and who you are, it's also about what you take responsibility for.

Like you took charge of that situation to be a protector, to be compassionate to this animal. Before the animal rights, you know, peace and love, we are all one mentality from my liberal upbringing in New York was like, don't kill animals like, oh, those poor things that, you know, but, you know you have a different relationship to life and death now and to killing. Yeah, it's, if you read the little prince, did you hear that book when you were a kid?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, he goes, we're responsible for ever for what we've done. I should probably read it. No, that I'm, and it's a great kids book. Yeah, yeah. But he says, we're responsible for what we've tamed. And it's like, I didn't domesticate this cow.

I didn't put it here, but it's my problem now. And it can't handle. Like, so it's this, what is less cruel putting it down or letting it die naturally, painfully, in a situation of its own making or not of its own making? Like, it wasn't, it was bred to do something that it is fundamentally unnatural and unsustainable. And now it's not like a lion's going to come take care of this problem now that it's the weakest member of the herd. It's just going to wither and die. And either not making a choice, like not choosing not to do something about it is also an ethical choice. Yeah, yeah.

And so it forces you to reckon with things that, yeah, living in the city, you know, you don't. How many people put aside, like, see a person die? How many people see literally anything die? Right, yeah. Their whole life. Yeah, yeah. You just hear about it.

Yeah. Yeah. Their whole life. Yeah. Yeah. You just hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, um, you know, we have chickens and, you know, um, we can let them free range. Yeah. So that they're natural and out in the fields and, you know, foraging for insects. But then guess who else is, is foraging? Yeah. The bobcats. They're in The hawks. So, you know, you have to make these choices, right? Are you going to close them in, smothering mother, like protect them, you know, in their life, but make them suffer in a cage? You know, it's, it's, I had done it easy. I heard a noise on the porch last night and there was five raccoons on my porch. And it was like brutal. Those guys. My, we had slowly been watching the chickens disappear.

We assumed it was something like that. That's who it was. And then it was like, now I have this decision, what am I gonna do about the raccoons? And I ended up, it was actually funny. My wife grabbed a shoe and she threw it at them and it knocked them over like bowling pins. It was like the most comicals I ever heard. And then they all scapered away and all like I'll just do a trap

like tonight and I'll move them or whatever. But yeah, you realize, hey, you this, this choice that feels kind, say like not locking up the chickens is perhaps not kind, right? Or you, because it's not like you didn't breathe, like somebody bred them to be totally unprotected, un-able to defend themselves. I mean, the God made them food. Yeah. Right?

The food for you or food for something or something. Yeah, something. So you, but either way, you just get used to, you have 10 chickens and then you have 8 chickens. And then what's also revealing or interesting about it, I remember we had this goose, we had a couple of geese, and geese are hilarious and really fun. And they would live sort of on the pond,

and then they would come in. And like the first time one of the geese got attacked, we took it to the vet, paid a bunch of money to get fixed up or whatever. And then a week later, it gets taken. And we were more sad than the other geese, which did not give a shit. And you realized animals have come to cope

with the fact that somebody gets picked off on a regular basis and then They don't feel sorry for themselves about it. They help it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah So you're gonna have to come we're gonna. Okay, so we what do you do best? Nakes? What depends if we have chickens and it's a problem for the chickens, like the eggs or whatever, or whatever. It also depends on what kind of snake it is. It's a rat snake. Usually I'll hope it'll just sort of move on and go away.

Please go. Yeah, please. So you just put a fake egg out or a golf ball and then they disappear because they eat that and die. Yes. So you kill them. So that's one thing you can do. Or, oh my God.

Yes. This is where we might divert. OK. So you like snake? I'm not a snake person. So when I first moved to the land, you start to realize, either you're going to call someone to come handle the snake, which is ridiculous, because at the time they show up,

the snake's anywhere else. And you're going to pay somebody to do that, or you do it yourself, right? And the question is, what are you going to do? You're going to kill every snake you see? Sure. I tried that. Cut off the head of one with a shovel.

Rattlesnake, I wasn't. I didn't know at the time. I mean, it looked like a snake. It was just a scary snake. You know? And I was like, this is not sustainable. I was heartbroken. And then you just deliberate with yourself

and you start to realize, okay, this, if I kill every single snake, that's just, that's a lot of murder. Yeah. So I learned to wrangle the snakes. I learned to, Wow. What did you do like a stick or something?

Yeah, I was just a long clasp, you know, with a handle on the end. Cause they go in your chin coop and eat the eggs. Yeah, I've had to take one out of the chicken coop. And I actually had some mouse traps in our chicken coop, because those I will kill. That's where I draw my... Yeah.

...because they will... Although the six kids... ...that's true, that's true. But there needs to be some balance, right? Obviously, but they're not going for the rats or the mice. They're going for the chicken eggs, which we eat. So, but I had some mouse traps for the chicken eggs, which we eat. So, but I had some mouse traps in the chicken coop

because there was an infestation. And when I went to go, oh, take off the box where the mouse trap was in, because you have to protect. Yeah, you have to protect the chickens from the mouse trap. They'll eat anything. I picked up the box and there was a snake that would have tagged me, right then, but it was in the mouse trap.

So I had to free the snake in order to capture it and then relocate it. So I was getting into relocation for a long time, but then the question is where do you relocate them to? Right. Because if you take them a mile or two away, I mean, you're just going to basically release them into someone's yard. Yeah, somebody else is a problem. There's not a lot of wild areas here. You're technically not a lot to go to like the Bastrop park, right? Technically, I'm not to say that I did or I didn't, I might have, but where are you going to take it? And if you take it too far, they'll actually die anyway, because they're too far from

their habitat. Sure. And if you relocate them close by, they'll just show up again. So I've come to the point where I'm just letting them be entirely. And now that I have a kid, it makes me feel a certain way. But at the same time I just If I can create enough balance on the land as you said and leave them alone and be mindful

Sure be present in the moment. I find snakes to be a reminder To pay attention Sure, because sometimes if I'm walking like and there's a snake. I'm like oh Boom suddenly I miss'm out there. The bass you feel there. You realize that at a very primal level, you are feeling and aware of things that you are just not in a regular way. We have a relationship with snakes that goes way back.

Yes. Yes. All the way back to the first of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, all the way back to the first of us. Yeah, yeah. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Seruti. And we are the hosts of a Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast.

Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre, and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Find, download, and binge-read-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. We can't see tomorrow, but we can hear it. And it sounds like a renewable natural gas bus replacing conventional fleets.

We're bridging to a sustainable energy future, working today to ensure tomorrow is on. And bridge, life takes energy. There's a Stoke philosopher's name is Musoneus Rufusini said, the only profession suitable to a philosopher is farming, which I thought was interesting and I didn't really get it first. And then you realize just all the different ways that it challenges you ethically, morally,

challenges your patience, it challenges your, you know, it connects you with nature, if horse you'd be present, it does all these, it brings through all these weird philosophical principles, which you wouldn't think that like growing stuff or raising cattle or just taking care of the land or fixing fences would draw out of you, but it does.

Yes, chop wood, carry water. Yeah. Yeah, so how do you, how do you find the balance because you're still in your previous world on some level. Yeah. Still doing the media game. And I had a question for you about well, where do you start? How do you find the balance between your foyer into farming and ranching and still staying in it with regards to writing and all that. The hard part is like, there is something satisfying about doing it yourself.

And then there's also like, did you get this thing to take you away from your other things. I remember when we first had kids, it was in a different place, I had a lot going on. But I'd be like, I'd be like, wait, I just spent the whole day clearing brush, you know, which was like satisfying and physically, you know, invigorating, but also like, my wife was inside with our four-month-old, and maybe that's not the best use of my time. So I try to balance out. I do, I've gotten to a place where also I don't feel insecure about it anymore in the sense that like if I don't do it and I pay someone to do it, I don't feel like I'm like,

like, at least the first time. Yeah, that I've done most of it and I could do it if I wanted to. Like, we just had a good chunk of our fencing replaced, like the barbed wire, because it was really old. I can replace barbed wire and I have hung barbed wire. But do I need to hang several thousand feet of barbed wire? Am I going to do as good a job as people

who this is their thing? So, I think there's attention in farming, but in all facets of life, of like delegating versus being like a control freak. Yeah, I just think it's a slippery slope, right? I was distinctly in my other life, climbing the capitalist ladder so that I could have more money to have more free time,

to be more bougie, to have more brunches, and get more soft. And that was quite good at it. I was quite soft. You know, I was weak. I had very little skills. I had some skills, which, you know, got me a media career. Yeah. But I had no skills as a, as a man, as a, you know, um, I mean, we, we don't have to, as a man,

I'm just going to say it. And now I have to make up for lost time. And so in many ways, I do the work because it is fulfilling and invigorating, but also because I want to make sure that I'm still in it. I like, I have an embodied experience. Yeah. As opposed to just everything being abstract in my head and then letting other people do the work. abstract in my head and then letting other people do the work. So it is a balance because you lay a thousand feet of barbed wire and then you clear the

brush that there's your weak, right? Not to mention all the other things you have to do. So I was the same and that I was, I want to do it all and I'm going to do it all myself and I was just untenable. Like it just doesn't make sense. I was, I want to do it all and I'm going to do it all myself. And I was just untenable. Like it just doesn't make sense. So can I continue every day to do something and be present in my body on the land, in nature,

doing the work, getting sweaty, building calluses, and also leave room for scalability by bringing in community, bringing in others and supporting them to participate as well. So I think, yeah, the balance for sure. That's something I've been thinking about as a parent, which is weird. Like, people go like, oh, I'm gonna move my own lawn, I'm gonna change my own oil.

There's this idea of like, I wanna do everything myself. And, but the one thing, people are very quick to outsource is the care of their children, which I've always thought is so strange. So it's like, you'll hand off your kid to this stranger for hours a day so that you can me go mo your own lawn. Yeah. Or like, if I was like, you know what, you should hire an assistant and you go, I can't afford that. Like that's very expensive. There's this sort of reluctant to like staff up in a business here for an answer, whatever.

And then you'll have that same person will have babysitters and nannies or what, like so they can do it. We staff, people are very comfortable with staff in all the senses of that word for the most precious thing they have in the world and then are very possessive of things that don't matter at all,

that don't say anything about you. So like my main thing is I like to spend like a lot of time with my kids. And so I'll pay people to do other shit and I don't feel insecure about that at all. Like that doesn't make me feel like less than a man that I'm looking out and someone's like outside getting sweaty doing something for me.

Cause like I'm playing legos with my boys or we're traveling or whatever. So I think the balance of like you could do it, you know how to do it. These are all very important skills. And then there is this balance of like, you could do it, you know how to do it, these are all very important skills. And then there is this sense of like, people prioritize very strange things that are tied to their identity

and then they accept as a given that like someone else should be doing the childcare. Which I, it always struck me as very strange. Yeah, part of the emphasis for me in my homesteading journey was about not outsourcing my life to the world, but being a part of it, like, driving it. Like, I get to live my life. I get to, and really finding this balance of how do we choose community? How do we choose, you know, because our fragmented culture forces us

to outsource many of these jobs that were traditionally part of the fence, like your mom would be, where your parents would be living with you or aunts and uncles, and they'd help you with the kids as opposed to now you got to pay some stranger to come in and do that.

While that stranger has their kid, you know, in some daycare. And you're like, you're not taking care of your kids to take care of our kids and we're paying you so that we can do something out. It's backwards. So recalibrating all of these things is important. And it's not that you do it all and you just don't let anybody else touch any your lawn or your kids, but it's about reintroducing yourself to what it's like to do it so that you can then find the right balance. You and I have a similar journey that we both sort of were on either like a rocket chip

or we've gotten to the top of something that a lot of people would want to get to the top of and then we both sort of stepped away. So what was that for you? What were you running away from or what were you walking towards? Why not just continue what you're doing? Must have seemed totally insane to a lot of people. Because I was on the wrong track. I was definitely on the wrong path of life.

I was selfish, narcissistic, indulgence, bougie, as fuck, and I had an awakening, I saw my future and I realized I was going to be utterly alone. I had no family, I was in my early 40s, my girlfriend dumped me because I was a prick. And I was like rock bottom, I was like holy shit. Like I spent all this time building up this life and so that I could strategically place dopamine hit opportunities throughout the day, whether it's drugs and alcohol, you know,

party and sex and all these things that would take me out of myself. Sure. And so I was escaping presents and feeling, numbing. And then I sort of hit a rock bottom and I was like, I got to change everything. And I didn't know what that meant. Yeah. It just meant I had to strip away, start to reduce all of the lifestyle things that I had

built, the houses, the parties, and the travel, and everything, and just get really small. And that's when I took my house in Austin, and I moved in the backyard, because I was renting it out at the time to some young guys, and I basically, I moved into the trailer that I had in the backyard, and I lived there for a year, basically meditating and reading and exploring who I am and what I want to be and learning to make my own choices for the first time in my life. Sure.

You know, I have to do this job because it's going to pay me all this money and take me around the world. But what's the, you know, what's for what? For what? Yeah, like in what second to, sure I have more money, more escape, more, you know, people applauding me, but who am I? I remember at a conversation with Tim Ferris once

and he was like, he's like, I have a question for you. I was like, okay, he's like, what do you do with your money? I was like, what do you mean? I was like, is this like an investment question? He's like, no, he's like,, you're like, what do you do with your money? I was like, what do you mean? I was like, is this like an investment question? He's like, no, he's like, when you have money, what do you spend it on? He's like, you know, do you have like a speedboat? Do you like do, he was like, what do you spend the money on?

And I was like, like nothing. I don't know, there's not like things that I spend it on. I just like, just goes, you buy real estate. Yeah, well, I know, it just goes in this account and then the number gets higher, right? Like, I just save it. I don't like, I have more than I need. It's basically what I was saying. And he was like, okay, so you should, he was like, make sure you make business decisions accordingly. And that was like super helpful to me because there is this sense, like, again, if you don't know what

you want, you want what other people want. And what most people want is more. They want more money. They want lots of money. They want more money, they want lots of money, they want to get to some place where they have the most or so much or an unlimited amount. And if that's not important to you, realizing that is incredibly freeing, because then you don't have to do things that you don't want to do.

Or that you shouldn't do. And then it makes it easier to say, no, to things. It's still very hard, especially when there's a large number attached to the thing that people are offering you. But knowing like, here's the kind of thing that I want to do. So I'm going to say, yes, to those things. And then pretty much everything else, I don't need to say yes to because it doesn't give me what I want. And so there have been a handful of pivotal moments where like someone offered me something very, very cool, even if it wasn't financial, but it it would mean moving here or giving up this or not spending time with these people and going

that might be success by some traditional definition, but it's the opposite of the life that I want. And so I can confidently pass. So many people are driving the break on, you know, they're doing all these things, but it's actually keeping them from what they want. Right. So it's like you're just creating a gulf between you and your, your, your yourself. Yeah. Um, and what my growth journey converged with the pandemic. The two. And that was another thing. I was like, holy shit. Like I was in my trailer when the pandemic hit and I was like, I got this. Yeah. Like I don't need anything. I was lit. I know I was cooking on an open flame, you know, in a little fire

in the backyard, and living in a camper. I was like, I don't need all the things. And people were struggling because all of a sudden, everything that they had or their job or whatever, it's like, now they have to do it without and stay inside and be confronted with self. So for me, the pandemic was like confirmation, like you're on the right path. Yeah, it was, it was a wake up call for me. I was like, oh, I like where I live. I like my life. And now because some other things were taken away, like all my speaking got canceled. All this stuff went away. And it was like, now I, I have to spend time doing the thing that actually I want to do.

My writing got better, my family life got better, and all these things. And I know this can feel very glip because so many people actually did suffer and lose all these things. But yeah, they're wake up call for a culture as well. But it's this idea of like a lot of people spend a lot of time doing things that are actually taking them further away from where they want to go or what they actually like.

And this is an out of necessity. If you're working three jobs because you're a single mom supporting their family, that's not who we're talking about. We're talking about someone who says they're doing it all for their family and so they're working, you know, 18-hour days on Wall Street or at some law firm to someday be able to not do that thing, to do the thing that they actually have right now. Like I remember I was talking to this guy news and author and, you know, at least connect. So anyways, he gets this opportunity to run this like

VC fund and he raises like a hundred million dollars for this VC fund, which is a ton of money. And I was like, but let's walk through this. Like, let's say your VC fund over the next seven years succeeds. It's huge. So you walk away. Let's say you make $20 million, $25 million, which will be insane. When you have succeeded at this thing, what will you do then? And he's like, well, I'll bubble, boils down to he would go back to writing books, right? And so it's like, okay, so basically you're hoping to pull off this million to one shot. You're going to spend every waking hour trying to do this incredibly difficult competitive thing. You're going to try to not just beat the market, but beat all the other people trying to beat the market.

And what you will do with what you have won with your winnings will be effectively to go back and do what you are already doing. There's that old email that gets forwarded around, but actually it's this story about a king. Like there's a story of like a fisherman in Vietnam or something, that's actually a story about it. The real story dates back to like the 14 or 1500s. This king and this advisor goes,

you know, we should invade this country and then invade this country and invade this country and invade this country, conquer all of them. And then then we can live at peace. But they're at peace now, right? And so there is this sense where people do a lot of things to get to a position that's actually much more accessible and realistic right now than they think it is. Yeah. And as opposed to developing the appreciation for the small things, the simple things, the

immediate, the immediacy of your situation, and not to say you shouldn't strive, but to build resilience. And that's one thing. Now I know, as you were saying before, I'm not so afraid of having to achieve and make all this money and climb that ladder because I know that I can be quite happy with very little. So it gives me a lot more freedom and I have the power of choice in the moment without having to make any choice that would be simply for the money. Yeah. You know, because I can always fall back on my fence-mending skills. Yeah.

You do it myself, and especially with the pandemic and the uncertainty of the future and the fragility of our centralized economic system, if everything collapses tomorrow, I can survive. Your spread's a little fancier than mine, but sometimes I think so we have this nice big piece of property. It looks out over this lake, which is really a tank as you learn. Right. Mine is not spring fed like yours, I don't know how to deliver. But it's beautiful, right? I look out my back window and bedroom window,

a step on the porch. I'm like, this is incredible. I can't believe I, you know, I, I have worked so hard and gotten so lucky and earned these things that this is mine. But my adjoining neighbor has like three acres that are effectively worthless and they live in a very small old trailer, but they have the same view. They have my view, right? Like they look at my property. And so like that was one of the things that I, like I reminded myself of during the pandemic, you know, like we were spending all this time together alone,

we had security and I didn't have to worry about money. I'm like a lot of people, I felt very blessed, you know, walking around and then I'd go, you know, so much of evenness is superfluous. Like, again, my next door neighbor or this person, this person, they have the same thing that I have at a much more excess, like I could fall many levels, like many rungs down the ladder and still be good.

And when you realize that, it gives you, I think, some security and confidence to be like, no, I don't really want to do that. Like, or I'm not, I don't care about that. I'm not going to get in that game. But the ability to say no is a very powerful thing. Yeah. Yeah. You think you need, you know, people, I remember I interviewed this guy who's this tech entrepreneur and he talks about how all these people are working very, very hard trying to pull out very difficult things to get fuck you money. Right? And he's like, I've met a lot of people who are doing that, who have done it. And he was like, I have not heard very many

people say fuck you. So you think that getting this thing is going to make you more independent, more You think that getting this thing is going to make you more independent, more secure, more aggressive and the risk that you take and the stands that you take, you know, just all the things that you do. But that, in fact, the exact opposite happens. Usually becoming successful makes you more conservative, not just politically, but just like, now you have it, and you know how hard it was to get it, and so you don't want to lose it. And so you end up working harder, you end up doing more than you have this stake, and you're like, what's got to grow at this percentage a year?

Or, you know, if I don't spend it, then in 20 years, it'll be worth, you know, X, right? And so, you think that getting this stuff is to get you to this place that's different. And in fact, it just gets you to a place that's more like the insecure place that you started at. Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm just hearing a lot of people being like, oh, easy for you to say, right?

Keeping up with inflation ain't nothing, right? And sure. So I guess, I'm just trying to, I remember someone told me, like, your money doesn't have to grow. Right, it just shouldn't run out. Right, I mean, it should and you should be sad, but there is also though, I think, and again, these are sort of privileged champagne problems,

but people get to a place where they feel like getting it isn't enough. Then they have to grow it and double it, triple it, or whatever. And so it creates this immense amount of insecurity. The whole point of financial success should be that you don't think about money that much. Right.

And then you talk to people who have extraordinary amounts of money and all they talk about is money and their whole life still revolves around money. Do they where are they on the Forbes list? You know, how are their investments doing? Can they afford this new fancy thing or what? And there's a poverty in that. Yeah, I think I was unlearning that myself. Always needing more, the next thrill, the next high, as opposed to just really Wittling it up, reducing it all down to just the bare essence of being, and being happy with that, being content with that because there's a lot of people who have a lot who are

very discontent, and then there are people who have very little who are also discontent like they're not recognizing what they do know, because obviously flash over all media, it's like you need more and more and more, you know, entourage is the goal. Yeah. Versus what stories we tell ourselves is so important. And you know about this, you know, from media literacy, it's like you have to be careful what you consume, what you watch. No, it can bring it to you.

It can bring it to you about yourself. Yeah, yeah. No, this is, yeah, go ahead. This very true as parents, right? So like, yeah, if you follow these accounts that give you a sense of how other parents are doing or what like what their life looks like, and it's not realistic at all.

Like, like, I've never seen a single, like sort of parenting, mom or dad Instagram account where the house wasn't spotless. I've never seen one where the kids are crying and screaming and yelling, where the parents are stressed, where they haven't shout. Like, it looks perfect. And that's not what it looks like.

And it's definitely not what my house looks like. Shit. And so now you tell me, you have like what it looks like, and it's definitely not what my house looks like. Shit. And so now you tell me, you have, like, this idea of like, who are you trying to impress, what imagery you're trying to keep up? Like, if you can get in this sort of algorithmic loop that's making you feel inadequate and shitty all the time, and this can happen to you if you're a 12 year old girl, or it can happen to you if you're a 50 year old man who thinks that the truck that you or I drive is cool

and then you see somebody else driving an insert fancy car and you go, well, I don't have that. Am I, did I make the wrong decision? Am I not, do I not have what they, it's not good for the brain. Like keeping up with the Jones is a very natural thing. So you have to be very diligent about what Jones is you let in your life.

Yeah, and that's tough for the algorithms who are telling you what Jones is you want in your life. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music,

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