The Daily Stoic - Amelia Boone On Excellence and Endurance

Episode Date: February 10, 2021

Ryan speaks to champion obstacle racer and attorney Amelia Boone about the absence of clear communication during the pandemic, creating structure and balance for success in multiple careers, how Stoicism offers tools to deal with our emotions, and more.Amelia Boone is a 4x world champion obstacle racer as well as a full-time practicing attorney. She is one of the most decorated obstacle racers in history and has been written about in the Wall Street Journal, Sports Illustrated, and ESPN. This episode is brought to you by Beekeeper’s Naturals, the company that’s reinventing your medicine with clean, effective products that actually work. Beekeepers Naturals has great products like Propolis Spray and B.LXR. As a listener of the Daily Stoic Podcast you can receive 15% off your first order. Just go to beekeepersnaturals.com/STOIC or use code STOIC at checkout to claim this deal.This episode is also brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs is the best platform for finding the right candidate to join your business this fall. It’s the largest marketplace for job seekers in the world, and it has great search features so that you can find candidates with any hard or soft skills that you need. And now, you can post a job for free. Just visit linkedin.com/STOIC to post a job for free. This episode is also brought to you by Blinkist, the app that gets you fifteen-minute summaries of the best nonfiction books out there. Blinkist lets you get the topline information and the most important points from the most important nonfiction books out there. Go to blinkist.com/stoic, try it free for 7 days, and save 25% off your new subscription, too.This episode is also brought to you by Public Goods, the one stop shop for sustainable, high quality everyday essentials made from clean ingredients at an affordable price. Everything from coffee to toilet paper & shampoo to pet food. Public Goods is your new everything store, thoughtfully designed for the conscious consumer. Receive $15 off your first Public Goods order with no minimum purchase. Just go to publicgoods.com/STOIC or use code STOIC at checkout.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Amelia Boone:Homepage: http://ameliabooneracing.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ameliabooneInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/arboone11/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amelia.boone See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stood Podcast early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stood Podcast where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoward.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward.

Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoop Podcast. My guest today, Amelia Boone, obstacle course race champion, ultra endurance athlete, and as it happens practicing attorney so I'm always impressed by people who are good at more than one thing. I think this is maybe the first or one of the first podcast guests who has spent the night at my house. Amelia was dating a friend of mine and the friend was visiting Austin and Amelia came

and I didn't know who she was. We'd never talked before and only when we met when she showed up, did that introduce me into Amelia's fascinating world? Obviously we talk about elite performance a lot in the show and Amelia has a lot to teach us about that. But I think more directly, she's a lot to teach us about overcoming adversity. She's been quite open about her struggles with a lifelong eating disorder, how that affected her personally, where that came from, how she has struggled to triumph over it,

and there's a number of great pieces that I recommend. You read where she sort of opens up about this and shared, and I think it's helped a lot of people. And so we get into that in the episode, how often, like the sort of the elements that the drive that makes us do things can also, when turned against us, be a source of great pain and suffering. But then also another opportunity to to grow and improve and change if we if we choose to

accept the challenge that our life and our experiences have put before us. So Amelia is on the show today. I think you'll really like this episode. You can follow her on Twitter at at Emilia Boone, A-M-E-I-L-A-B-O-O-N-E. On Instagram, she is at A-R-B-O-O-N-E-E-E-Levin. R-Boone 11. Ultra Runner Attorney

Fascinating all-around person our Boone 11 ultra runner attorney fascinating all around person four time obstacle racing world champion. I think there's some still tendencies in there and so I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. I was thinking you this is a weird situation where I'm having someone on the podcast who's spent the night in my house, but I may be talked to for like 10 minutes of my entire life. That is very true. That is true. I do remember why I went for a run from your house and you warned me about the dogs and

that I used to sometimes run with a Billy Glob club. And I was like, I don't really know if I want to run with one of those. It's very large. Did you have an issue? I don't remember. No, I saw a few, but then I got terrified. And because I was like, oh, they were going to attack me. But no, no dogs attacked me on my run. It was successful. Yeah, I run with like a collapsible like police baton. Because I think people think that moving out in the country means that your dog is just allowed to be whatever it wants. Like it could be whatever monster it wants to be.

And my house has this sort of dirt road on it and these dogs. They think they're protecting the house or whatever, but it's like it's not the house. This is the road. So on the one hand, it's wonderful because I can run, I can do three miles not leaving the not stepping on pavement. On the other hand, I do sometimes have to fight off dogs. Yes, exactly. I mean, that was the first time I was like, okay, we are out in the country for sure, but there's there's a lot of benefits to that as well.

Definitely as I'm sure you know. It is funny though, my, my, my wife my wife asked me, she's like, what dog is you talking about? All the dogs on our street love me. And so it's just me. It's like a me problem, really. Oh, just, just terrified, just terrified of you.

Yes, I guess. Well, I was trying to think of where to start on this. One thing I know you and I have gone back and forth. It's weirdly, this is a very first world problem, but it's been a hard thing for me during the pandemic, which is that I haven't been able to swim the way that I was really getting into swimming.

I mean, there's not really anything dangerous about swimming, but it's just like, I'm not really leaving my house or going anywhere. So like the act of going to a pool, even an outdoor pool is just something we decided not to do. Have you been swimming? You know, I did during the summer

when there were outdoor pools open. And it was actually, it was a bit nerve-racking for me at first. I think I have aired more on the very cautious side during the pandemic. But there was this part of me that, you know, I used to swim three, four or five times a week when I was living in the Bay area, and I just adored it. And not so much for exercise, but for me, it was almost a very kind of silent meditation. And not just the world was

just shut off around me, something about the wishing water and the staring at the black line. And I found myself definitely craving that. And so I did swim a bit when there was, were outdoor pools open. Now it's winter and Colorado. So I'm, I miss them again, for sure. But it is one of those things. I'm like, maybe I can find a wet suit and just find a pond that's not frozen and jump in. But that's not working so well. find a palm that's not frozen and jump in, but that's not working so well. Well, it's sort of, there's like a double whammy with the pandemic where it's like,

so it's not just that you're like locked in and, you know, dealing with all this stuff, but then often I think a lot of the things that we do for mental health, like swimming being one of those things for me, there is something magical about being in the water. I think it's like exercising in a sensory deprivation chamber or something like there, you know, like when I run, I listen to music and and I'm, there's benefits to that, but like when I'm

underwater, I'm just underwater and there's nothing. And not being able to do it has made the, it compounds already the mental health issues of the pandemic, like it's a, it's a tricky thing. Yeah, and I mean, I think this was one of the things that I realized very early on when everything started shutting down in March, especially I was in California at the time and we shut down super early, is that my first thought went that to, you know, physical health is going to take a huge toll because of the pandemic, but the toll on mental health is going to be disastrous. And for years and years to come, I think, on people. But at the same time, I think that it will show us a lot about how resilient we are, for sure, but it is something that over this past year, I've just actually just realized how much it has taken a toll on our mental health, you know, and in how difficult it is an isolation for people, you know, and I, I think for myself, I generally think I'm more of an introvert that I don't like people. And if there's one thing to pandemic has taught me,

it's that I actually need people more than I thought. And so all of these different lessons just compounding over and over. Yeah, it's like, I like knowing there are people around, I don't like being around people. So it's one thing's a great thing where it's like, hey, we're all doing our own thing in the same area. And maybe we'll nod at each other and say hello, but we don't have to hang out. Like, like for me, like with CrossFit, one of the reasons I didn't, I'm not a huge CrossFit

guy, it's like, I need this sort of solitary introverted, like going into your own world, part of the workout. So I would find it, I would go to CrossFit and it'd be a great workout, but it would take an hour. And then I'd have to go do some form of solitary exercise as well. So it's like, you know what? I don't have time to work out for three hours a day. Like this that's not in my time budget. So swimming is swimming and running are great because it's like, you're doing it alone, but you're also not being a total like, uh, shut in. Right. Yeah. I mean, and that was a thing with me

with running one of my, I love giving people high fives, just random people high fives as I'm running along. And I would do that if, when I've been in Austin before and running, um, you know, like around the lake. I'm like, yeah, I'm Tom Lake, and I would just like, put on my hand and see if anyone gave me a high five. And I definitely missed that too, because I'm sure if you tried to give somebody a high

five right now, they were just running away in terror. I mean, even waving at somebody, some people run away in terror right now. So I do, I do think I would have probably run away from terror, run away in terror on a normal day. If a total stranger tried to give me a high five while running, but it's certainly compounded in the pandemic. Exactly. We were at the beach this summer and it's weird how these sort of things that under ordinary

circumstances would be totally polite gestures, but then the context of it changes in the pandemic. We were at the beach and, you know, so like, I don't know if you've been to the beach turn in the pinnacle. It was like, we're like, okay, we're all being safe, we're outside, but we got to be in like our little area. And especially when you have kids, you're like, okay, like don't go outside this ring of sand.

So we're like being our thing, and we're hanging out. And this guy walks up like into our area, and he's like, do you want me to take a picture of you as a family? And we're like, that's very nice, but also get the fuck out of our area and he's like, do you want me to take a picture of you as a family? And we're like, that's very nice, but also get the fuck out of our area, dude. Like, this is, are you aware what's happening in the world? So it's like, these things that I think extroverted people

think are very kind. They're having trouble wrapping their head around being like, now the opposite of kind. Oh, absolutely. A woman ran into me the other day in the store and she immediately like grasped out and held onto my shoulder and it's like, oh, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.

And my initial reaction was to shrink back because I'm like, wait, I have a stranger touching me right now. This is not supposed to be happening. Whereas any other time, and be like, okay, she's just trying to be polite and apologize so that she did that. You know, in a part of me just starts to go down this rabbit hole, what is this going

to do to us in the future, and especially children, you know, learning to be scared of other people? I, you know, I just can't imagine. Yeah, or how's it going to be in like Silicon Valley where people are already socially awkward? And, and now there's been been this weird set of new rules and then all the muscles atrophy, like what is that going to do?

I know. And I think that everybody thought, I'm like, oh Silicon Valley is like, people have been preparing this for this their entire lives because they aren't around people. But I work for a tech company and the vast majority of people that I know are saying, oh gosh, we've actually realized that we miss the office.

We miss being around people. We miss that interaction, even if it's not something that's intentional, just knowing that there are other people there and just those highs at the water cooler in the bathroom. I think are just little pieces that we've taken for granted for so long. I think are just little pieces that we've taken for granted for so long. And that aren't possible now. I've found that even with my own employees. It's like, okay,

you're all working remotely. But then because we're not even like, hey, occasionally in the same room together, like traveling or meetups or offsets or whatever, the biggest thing has been like not realizing how much stress someone is under or how much is on their plate. Because like you would see, like if you were in the same office, you would see that someone is frenzied or busy or overloaded or staying late. It's like, I was having to tell someone who works

to me and is like, contrary to what you might think, I don't have cameras in your house, telling me what you're doing. So like, I'm assuming you're working, but I'm also assuming, like so on the one hand, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt,, I'm assuming you're working, but I'm also assuming, like, so on the one hand, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Like, I'm assuming you're working hard in the way that that's like the big worry on remote working is like, if someone taking the advantage of you, but I was like, conversely, also, I don't know whether I'm taking

the advantage of you. Like, I don't know if I'm giving you so much work that you can't do it all in a reasonable amount of hours. And if you don't tell me, I have no know if I'm giving you so much work that you can't do it all in a reasonable amount of hours. And if you don't tell me, I have no idea that that's happening. So it's like, I think it's also creating the need for... It's like it's creating the need for discipline if you're an ill-disciplined person. But then it's also creating the need for boundaries if you're a person who doesn't have good work life balance.

No, absolutely. And I think that that's one big thing. And certainly that I've had to work on too is that that, you know, we have the ability now to there is no dichotomy between home life and work life. Right. And so you could be on call 24 hours a day if you wanted to. And I think really it's weird to feel like you can take a vacation when you're

already working remotely or that you're working from home, but just working on setting those boundaries is is is massive. And I think it's also making us become better communicators because we lose so much nuance in being able to be there in people with in person with people and how much we pick up on nonverbal cues and you know and things like that that like you just sense based on body language that you don't even get even on a video call sometimes because you don't see all of the body language. So it's all those little things that we're all learning. Yeah, I'm learning that like I'm I give often vague sort of instructions that I'm assuming the person not like like and this is something you struggle with as a writer too where you're like, oh, I said this sentence, but there's like 50 assumptions based baked into this thing.

I'm sure as a lawyer, you like you're trained to like, no, you actually have to say, you have to spell out all the things. You can't take anything for granted. But I think I think communication is key. And then I also think we're learning from a leadership perspective. Like I was listening, I was listening to that, I don't know if you heard it, but that clip of Tom Cruise blowing up

at the people on the film set. And on the one hand, obviously it's not all. It's not good to yell at people, but there was a part of me that was listening to that and thinking, this is the first time I in 10 months, I've seen a person in a part of me that was listening to that and thinking, this is the first time I, in 10 months, I've seen a person in a position of authority and responsibility actually lay out what is at stake and what they want in a clear,

and fatic like non-heji way. Like I was like, imagine if the president or a mayor had in May been like, guys, what the fuck are you doing? Here's what the instructions are. Here's what the instructions are, here's what the stakes are, people are looking at us like I expect you to be an adult or you're fucking out of here. Like there was a communication in that in a way that I feel like we've been lacking. Oh, absolutely. And I think that there's just been such a vacuum. And people, if anything, I was telling people,

this has been actually a great civics kind of lesson for everyone, because when in our lives, have you really paid attention to your governors or your local municipalities? And because it is such a patchwork here in the US that all of a sudden people are trying, it's like we're looking at state leaders, we're looking at local leaders instead of just the federal government. And I think that a lot of people, I will fully admit for many, many years, I never paid attention to local

politics because I didn't think it mattered. And now I kind of realize that local leadership definitely matters. Yeah, and you sort of realize these systems we have are completely nonsensical. Like like in Texas where I live, like so a normal town has a mayor, but I don't live in a town. I live in a rural county. So we have a, we have a county judge who's not a judge. Like that's just the name is judge, but they're not a judge. They're basically like the mayor of the county. And then there's like a county council. And you're just like, oh, okay, like, yeah, you think it's like, hey, why doesn't, why doesn't this person just, why doesn't a person just make a decision?

And like, there isn't a person. No one who's job this is. And, and so I think people, people have struggled under the lack of leadership, but also the lack of communication. And then not realizing that the absence of clear communication only puts greater responsibility on yourself. There's a great Atlantic piece about the reporter

was going, I see all these people I know eating at restaurants, like eating inside restaurants, which is like the number one thing you should not be doing during the pandemic. For people who are listening, there's no reason to eat inside at a restaurant. But he or she, I forget who wrote listening, like, there's no reason to eat inside of the restaurant. But he or she, I forget who wrote it, was saying like, I just assumed that they knew what was happening and were taking the risk.

And he's like, and I talked to them, they were like, oh, we just assumed because they were open, it was safe. And you're like, no, you have to make these decisions. You have the absence of directives means that you have to take responsibility for yourself. Absolutely. And I think that there is this level of personal responsibility that maybe we, especially as Americans,

haven't really owned up to for so long. And then now all of a sudden, it's like, okay, we have to, we're fearing out who is really good at following rules and who is not. And our country apparently is very, very much not, you know, that is, and it is just something that's baked into, you know, how we were formed and how the US was formed and our early origins. And I think in a time like this,

it's actually really coming back to Hauntas. Because you look at the difference in Germany where people are very, very law by the insidicents and very, you know, like they don't even, you get on the trains there, it's all an honor system. Like you don't pay and no one really checks your tickets. Or sorry, you don't, like no one really checks your tickets or sorry, you don't like no one's collecting money, but everybody pays. And that's just how their society

works. That is not how America works at all. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Ah, the Bahamas. What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for? FTX Founder's Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded with other people's money, but he allegedly stole. Many thought Sam Bankman Fried was changing the game as he graced the pages of Forbes and Vanity Fair.

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rise and spectacular fall of FTX and its founder, Sam Beckman-Freed. Follow Spellcaster wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, prime members, you can listen to episodes Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today. you can listen to episodes ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Yeah, there's, that's the weird thing. So I could, I don't agree with it, but I get the argument of like the government shouldn't be telling us that we have to wear a mask, right? Like I get that. But it's, you would think then the person who would be arguing that, like you're going, hey, the government shouldn't have a safety net, we should have a private charity safety net. Like if you make that argument, you better be a person who gives a lot of money to charity.

You know what I mean? And so it's funny that you have these people like, you know, masks, mandating mask use is a pressure or whatever, which is obviously absurd. But you would think that those people would then be big voluntary mask proponents, but they're not. So you sort of get, it's like, oh, at the root of it, you just don't wanna do this thing and you're making up excuses, right?

I totally get the argument like, hey, we're all adults, we should be responsible for ourselves. But you then have to be responsible for yourself, which is to me, kind of the essence of stoicism. It's like freedom is the opportunity for discipline. But if you don't have the discipline, you lose the freedom. That's how it works. Right. Exactly. Like you can't, you can't have it both ways at all. And I think that that's really what everyone is trying is human nature to what, you know, to pick and choose. And, but it's just it's just not gonna work in this situation.

But I think that that kind of ties into what you do as an athlete. Like it's I think some people might go, oh, there's so much freedom in being an athlete, like you're an athlete, the sort of the solitary sports. Although I know sometimes you do it as part of a team, but it's like you realize, oh, now you have to be your own tyrant instead of a coach and a manager and a system that sort of tells you what to do.

It's like, no, you actually have to have more discipline than an ordinary athlete. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think that it's interesting because for me personally, I have never lacked the discipline aspect from it. And I don't know where that came from. It was from a very, very early age.

It was always that I, you know, I remember my parents being like, it's okay to let up, it's okay to not play by the rules. It's okay to, and I the rules, it's okay to, and I always wonder, like, where does that come from? And is it in people ask, is it a Nate, or is it something that then leads you to the success that you have?

And then what are also the downfalls of that at the same time? Because while self-discipline is fantastic in so many regards, I think in a lot of ways, it also then can create kind of a very rigid box. And so I don't know, I go back forth out with it all the time. I've talked about this. It's like you almost have to cultivate a meta level of self-discipline where you're disciplined about your discipline. Yes, Yes. And it's very much that knowing when to turn the discipline on and off and knowing when

you know, because sometimes the discipline for me can lead me into very bad situations and very you know, like points where I'm breaking bones and running through them and and all the things where I'm just like, but, but this is my program and I have to follow this, but taking off like to a point where I'm no longer paying attention to anything with my body with my mind, you know, complete or regard or lack of regard for that. Yeah, you, you, it's like the, I think the number one cause of injury and athletes is overtraining. And that's like, that's the cost of discipline. Like most people suffer from a lack of discipline, but at the elite level, it's the excess of discipline that can get you in trouble. And that's where moderation comes in.

I guess. Oh, yeah. And I mean, that's where actually where I have safety mechanism set up with like I always say my coach is there to dial me back to prevent me from going as opposed to like pushing you be like, come on, you need you need to get moving. You need to run more said he's like, no, maybe you should take some rest right now. And because I think for many high achievers also the idea of rest or the idea of just like taking it down a notch is something that is so like, antithetical to everything that we believe in. And it feels almost like a failure at points.

One of the weird side benefits of the pandemic for me is I haven't gotten sick in 10 months. Like I've been gotten, like, cause I would get colds all the time from traveling and stuff. Yeah. Weirdly like that's, one of the tests of discipline for me in like, because I would get cold all the time from traveling and stuff. Yeah. Weirdly, like that's one of the tests of discipline for me is like, I don't feel good. I'm sick. I cannot, but I try to run every day.

And it's like, if I stay home and I don't run, I will feel bad, but I will also get better sooner. But I'd like, you know, like the discipline of deciding not to work out sometimes requires more discipline than pushing through the pain. So absolutely, I think that rest for an athlete is one of the hardest things that we have to do. And, you know, I take a rest day every week and it was actually, it's always my least favorite day

because for me, that is harder than not going out and then going out and running, you know, 10 miles or something like that. To be like, no, today, I'm just going to go for a walk and I'm letting my body recover. And it does definitely require, I've had to flip that on its head to like see that it's actually doing that as more of a strength than a weakness. Yeah. Yeah.

Right, but it's like this is part of the training regimen. Like you're supposed to, you are working hard and not working today. Yes. That's as weird as that sounds. Is there an element of OCD-ness in it for you? I feel I got to wonder like, I mean, I think it can become a little bit of an addiction,

but then how much are, like maybe your point about childhood, I maybe I picked up somewhere that like, if I don't do it this way, something bad will happen. And there's like flipping the light switch 15 times before you go to bed or something. Yeah, I mean, so that completely resonates with me. I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder when I was probably seven or eight years old.

And it took all the classic forms of what you would see as obsess compulsive, the cleanliness, the light, the rituals, the light switch flipping, everything, the checking, everything like that. And so there is that part of me that questions and always wonders, you know, is that is the athletics, everything that I've done in my life, how much of that is tied to the obsessive compulsive nature and tendencies.

And like, are we just, am I just diluting myself in thinking, like, well, I've kind of rid of the rest of, I've worked through all of the other obsessive compulsive issues, but I'm still doing this, has it just channeled itself into, you know, into a different form. You know, and I don't, I honestly don't have a good answer for that. And I think that that's actually really where the test of coming in and taking breaks

and taking unplanned breaks and taking breaks when I feel fine, kind of like to challenge that, almost like an exposure therapy type of way. Kids have been a little bit of that for me because it's like, so it's like, let's say like I go for a walk in the morning and it's cold, like this morning it was like 32 degrees or something. And much colder I'm sure, whereas you are,

but it's cold, it's like I will drop dead before I turn around and go back inside. But it's like the two year old and the stroller who's crying because it's cold. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it reveals to you how sort of destructive the compulsion can be because you're like, you're like, I'm just going to push through the pain and there's definitely benefits to that. Like, you couldn't have won the races you've won if you didn't push through pain and I couldn't have written my books if I didn't push through resistance. But you're like, oh, I'm also inflicting this

on innocent people who didn't sign up for it. And it was quite literally strapped in and cannot escape. Right. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that it's, you know, I don't have kids, but I've heard that in terms of creating flexibility in your life and learning how to roll with that, then that is the number one thing that that can help you in terms of creating flexibility in your life and learning how to roll with that, then

that is the number one thing that that can help you get through that. I think you get really used to like as a creative person or an athlete or something, you get because of that OCD thing we're talking about, you get it, it's like you go into whatever the thing you do is as kind of a respite from the chaos of the world. It's like, I know it doesn't matter anything that's happening in the world. I sit down on my computer and I write, I go into a non-paying headspace. You know what I mean? Like, it's certainly painful to write, but it's like, I have control over this world and

it's mine and nothing else matters. And you kind of need thing, that can be great, but if you, unless you want to end up miserable and alone and bitter or something, you have to be able to figure out how to let people and things in. And again, it's the sort of the cost. I had right Thompson on the sports writer. His book is titled The Cost of These Dreams.

And I think the cost of it is, of the thing is often very real, but hard to discern. Yeah, and absolutely. And I think that we can fool ourselves into thinking, our lives are complete if we are only pursuing one thing. And if we're head down in it. And then, you know, for many years, when I was very, very focused on racing

and that was in my entire world, and I mean, I still had my job and everything, but I just, everything was win, win, win, win. And I realized like everything else was just starting to fall by the wayside. And people would say, well, how do you do it all, Amelia? How can you be, you know, a high-powered attorney and also be a world champion? And I said, well, that's all I have, you know? Like everything else in my life, like I couldn't hold a relationship, like I couldn't, you know, I didn't cook, I didn't have outside

interest. I didn't, you know, like all the little things that are just like little snippets of well-rounded life weren't there. And so I always wondered about that, you know. Could you have had a dog before? Was that a breakthrough for you? That was definitely a breakthrough for me, because for me, yeah, so I just got a dog

and you know, she throws a wrench in your routine, especially as a puppy because it's kind of like having a kid. But yeah, no, for me, I said, well, no, I would have to give up, I would have to give up, you know, five hour long runs or something like that because I need to get back to care of the puppy. So learning that flexibility has been huge. I'm going to go back to the compulsion thing in a bit, but I was curious because you brought up being an athlete and having a day job. There is kind of this myth that you can only be great

at one thing or that to pursue a dream, whether it's being a writer, an athlete, or a musician, or whatever, like you have to blow up your life and only do that thing. And I'm curious how you managed to pull off a career and like excellence in a, in a essentially an all-consuming other pursuit. Yeah, you know, I think a lit of it

I was timing and luck in some ways, but I also have kind of always lived by this motto that if you want to get something done, give it to a busy person. So I have actually found that I work better when I have multiple balls up in the air. know, there was a point where people said, are you going to quit being a lawyer and become and just be a full time professional athlete? And I said, no, because then my entire life would be focused around training and racing and winning. And if I didn't win, I couldn't put food on the table. And I think for me, I knew that, okay, I have to be, I have my first call at work at 8 a.m. So I need to be up and running and out the door by 5.30 in the morning so I can get ready for that. And so it was just, it created a very much a structure around my day. And that I think because I and Nailey really need a lot of structure, like that is the one thing I like, stability and structure, that being able to do that allowed me to have success in both.

But it's not perfect. I had to realize at times that the racing would have to give way to being an attorney, for instance, and to make that work. But I definitely thrive when I have way more on my plate than when I have less on it for sure. Do you feel like you left performance on the table? I imagine it doesn't keep you up at night to think you left on the table.

But do you think you let like like when you look at your times or your victories, do you think like, hey, if I'd only been doing X, I would have been 5% better, or do you actually think like you can't separate it. And in fact, the two professions were fueling each other. You know, I don't, I infer from an athletic standpoint, I don't think that I left anything on the table. I actually do think that in the legal world, I left stuff on the table. I actually do think that in the legal world, I left stuff on the table.

I decided to not pursue becoming a partner at a law firm, for instance, because for me, that's kind of the pinnacle people think, you know, you get the best job at the biggest law firm and you rise to the ranks, you become a partner, you pull a million dollars a year, a year, and I realized that was not compatible with also being an athlete. So I did actually leave stuff on the table in my legal career, but for me, I think that I've kind of found peace with just, you know, having that balance. That that worked for me as an attorney is great and I love it, but I also want to be able to pursue outside passions.

Yeah, sort of, I wonder if like that's almost like a bullet dodged, right? Like if you hadn't had this other thing, you would have been so focused and maybe you would have got to a place where you got the thing that everyone wants and then you realize why very few people who get it are happy. Yeah, oh, absolutely. I think that I looked around and I very much, I didn't start racing until I was out of law school because I did everything. I went through college to get into the best law school. I went through law school, got the best grades, get the best law firm and I got to the law firm

and I was like, wait, is this it? Is this what life is about? And racing kind of just fell into my lap. I think at that point, and I realized like, oh, no, like either there are other things out there. So I don't have any regrets about how I kind of structure and everything for sure. It gives you kind of a clarity to having one foot in and one foot out. Like, like I did my first three books when I worked in American apparel. And on the one hand, to go to your point,

it's like I, but by having a career in a salary, I was actually able to take creative risks that I probably couldn't have taken your point about, you know, not the winning and losing, not riding on, you're rent, not riding on winning or losing is sort of freeing in some ways. But then also, I think, it can be dangerous to be a lifer in a career. And so to have this like sort of exit valve all the time that was creatively fulfilling, I think that's why

you know, the company that I worked at, which is very dysfunctional, didn't break or corrupt me because it was always like, I had other shit to do. Not just like on the weekends and at 6 p.m. but like I was good at it and I was doing it because I was good at it, but like my identity wasn't tied up in it. Like my identity was in the writing, just as I'm sure for you, the passion was where you found the meaning and fulfillment.

So you're able to be a good lawyer, but it wasn't like, you weren't, your ego wasn't tied up in being a lawyer. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that for anybody, if you have, if you put all your eggs in one basket, if you just have one thing that you're going to derive your identity from, which I have fallen into many, many times, and you know, and I actually fell into it as an athlete, many times and you know, and I actually fell into it as an athlete. That if I thought the only way that I was going to achieve success or half people love me was through this one thing, you're setting yourself up for failure, you know, and I think that we all learn that in a very hard way at

different times. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Did were there things you learned from the two different professions that helped you at either one? I mean, I think that I think that definitely there was a weird crossover in terms of just in just just in the discipline in different ways, you know, I think because they that crossover of having to be able like, okay, I can sit here and pull in all night or at my desk

and write briefs for 24 hours or I can go run for 24 hours and like, it sucks what I'm going to get through it, you know. And so I just think if anything, it's just more of an innate personality trait that led to success in both. Yeah, in Maracame's book, what I talk about, when I talk about running, he says like, it's exercise and a metaphor. And so when you're like, I can push past what I think is I'm capable of or what other people think I'm capable of

and that sort of pain or doubt or wanting to quit Isn't what makes me quit? It's sort of an invincibility in the other stuff that you do in life. So absolutely, you know, and I think that now whenever I go through something hard I always kind of draw on other experiences in my life that have been hard and I think that that and be like, well, if I got through that, I can certainly get through this. Right. Yes, although, although to go to our point about the bad side of this, you can also learn the lesson of like stuff is supposed to be painful and you just push through it. Like sometimes you're just not supposed to do stuff, right? Like the Epicurians would say, like, the pain is a bad sign.

Oh, absolutely, you know, and I think that, unfortunately, Epicurians have never really resonated with me, but there is this idea. Also, I think that I've also tossed around of that the pain becomes addictive in ways. And that for me, in a lot of my life, I think that I was using the pain to escape other types of pain that I didn't want to confront at times. And I also really, so that's the lot of things that I think about, like keeping myself busy all the time,

keeping all the balls up in the air, like running for hundreds of miles at a time. What am I avoiding? And I actually, people always say, what are you running from? That's your big question when they ask, why are you running 100 miles? And in many ways, it's very, very true as cliche as it is. My friend Neal's, who's also my writing partner on a lot of projects. He jokes that you should be the most wary of triathletes because they are running, swimming, and biking away from their problems. Very true. There was a reason why I've resisted triathlon because I would get into it, I know.

Yeah, the San, the, the San O'Johnson quote is like he who makes, he who turns himself into a beast gets rid of the pain of being a man. And I think like you can, you can turn yourself into a machine that runs or writes or trades stocks or builds companies. Like I got to imagine there's like when you look at Elon Musk's life, I mean clearly he's very brilliant. There must be some stillness that he's afraid of that would make one do all of those things simultaneously and and then on top of it like constantly be like

blowing up your life with dumb remarks and waiting into controversy. Do you know what I'm like? They're clear. There's an addiction there. Oh, there it is. You know, and I think I think that is the key. And I think we all have this is getting to the point where you recognize this, you know, where you are self-aware enough. And I think for many years, I personally wasn't. You know, I as a young child,

then this goes back kind of to like the obsessive-emulsive. I had a lot of feelings. I was a very emotional kid. I was all over the place. I was tantrums. I was up and down. And I learned that feelings were bad.

And I learned that, I needed to kind of like stamp those out of me because I was such a quote unquote problem child. And I think that I found through like the discipline through the running through the achievements, if I could just run myself into oblivion, then I didn't have to feel things, you know, and I didn't have to deal with those. And it was almost a way through disorder, through the obsessive compulsive, through the eating disorder that that turned into, that I just wanted all of that emotion to go away, but I didn't know how to deal with it

in a productive manner, aside from just through disorder and chaos. Do you ever watch the show intervention? I have, yeah, a few. It's always like wonderful idyllic childhood. Everything's going great. And then it's like, and then it's like, then this thing happened and everything was different. You know, like there's always that turning point where they learned the exact lesson you were talking about. And sometimes it's heroin, sometimes it's, sometimes it's, you know,

whatever. Was it a moment for you or was it a series of experiences that taught you like, hey, run away from your feelings? Like, or, or I, like, I know for me, because I have some of that, I have this weird thing where I can't even, I, like, like, you know, you do like inner child work or whatever. I can't even like, really even, I can't even find myself as a child.

I'm like, it's like, it clearly happened before I was like 13 or 14, but anything beyond that is kind of this weird blur. Can you access what that was? Yeah, I mean, I can, I definitely, somewhere along the way, and I don't know if there was never a big event or a big trauma or anything like that, but I learned that I could, I was different than other kids in that in terms of how emotional I was and I cried every single day and I saw everybody, I wasn't functioning in that way. And so I wanted to be different. And I wanted to, I kind of vaulted this idea

and that the perfect person would have no emotions, and that the perfect person would have no feelings, and that everything would be controlled by logic and thought. Yes. Which, you know, and I was like, okay, I want to be that person, I'm going to be that person. And so what I had to do was kind of find a way to get, to go against what was very kind of innate in me

and these very large emotions. And so I just started over time learning these different coping mechanisms that could do that, you know, and running did that. And, you know, and I went, I was diagnosed with anorexia when I was 16 and I spent 20 years starving myself into oblivion to like just kind of beat all of that out. And, but it never really fixed anything, you know,

because underneath that was also there. And I had to kind of come to grips with that. Emotions aren't bad. It's just how you deal with them and how you present them, you know, for sure. Really glad you bring that up because I think a lot of people sort of miss stoicism, like some other writers have talked about this, the sort of the difference between lower case stoicism and upper case stoicism. And this idea of stuffing our emotions down,

pretending they don't exist, distracting ourselves from them with other stuff, that's one not what stochism is, but also that doesn't work. Like, I mean, as you found, it's like, and I think this is like the definition of every plot line of intervention, which is like, you're stuffing it down, and then think this is like the definition of every plot line of intervention. Which is like, you're stopping it down. And then it explodes all over you and it can blow you up. It can blow your whole family up. It can blow.

It's like, it never works out. Mm-hmm. Oh, absolutely. And I think I will fully admit that I was one of those people that thought stoicism was very much. Just emotions are bad. Thoughts logic is great, but you're not supposed to have any emotions.

And so I said, okay, I am going to be that person, but I not know. You know, we all have them. I don't care who you are. I actually don't trust people that don't have emotions. So it's just, I think that is one of the things that, you know, people get very confused about socialism, for sure. I know clearly I did. Well, we have this. I think it's like, so you face with a strong emotion, envy, hatred,

self-loathing, fear, whatever. And it's like, you have a choice. You can shove that down, and then it goes away, but it comes back. I sort of like it, it's like you're putting it on your credit card at a high interest rate. Like it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah. Or you can pay for it right now and deal with it. You know, you can go like, I'm like in marriage,

I find this, it's like you're feeling grouchy, upset, worried. You have something on your mind. So you don't, you don't want to say anything about it because you want things to go well. And then actually ends up blowing all of it. And then you get in a huge fight. And it's way worse than just like the whatever the uncomfortable conversation was in the first place. And I think that's a good metaphor for life, which is like you can process the emotion

you have, or you can stuff it down. The end result is actually the same in the long run, which is that you don't have the thing anymore. One is much cheaper. It's much cheaper to deal with it. If you want to pay, there was a credit card commercial I saw a few years ago that was like, talking about credit card interests and they're basically like, they're like, the check is $100 at dinner and I said, I'd prefer to pay $180, right? Like the point of like, if you, you know, pay the minimum balance, it's more.

And I think that's often what we do with emotions. We say like, well, I don't want to pay it right now. I want to pay three times the cost of this emotion six years from now, and I finally get around to dealing with it. Oh, absolutely. And I think that the longer that you do it, you know, and I'd spend a good 20 years for me. And then all of a sudden,

just 20 years. All I just 20 years. And then all of a sudden, you know, I like age, when I was like age 35, everything came back up. And I was like, felt like I was being transported back to being a child again in terms of dealing with everything. And, you know, instead of just being like, oh, I wonder what would have happened if, you know, throughout my 20s and things like that, I just had as emotions came up, I processed them. And I talked talked about them and I got them out and I moved on instead

of just being like, no, these are not happening. I'm just denying any of this is happening right now. Was it was there like a rock bottom moment for you? Was there was it kind of an intervention thing or was it just a slow realization like you didn't want to do this anymore? I was a combo I think of few there was it wasn't an intervention for me. It was kind of a personal rock bottom in terms of I had been breaking my body enough. I had ended up with five stress fractures in four years. Sport had been taken from me. And so, I wasn't running. I wasn't doing any of that.

And I just got to this point where I was like, I'm shooting myself in the foot every single day because I can't do the things that I love to do. And I just wasn't present in life in a lot of ways. And so I think I just hit this point where I was like, I have to fix things and I need more help. And that's kind of where I went from there. And it's one of those things now that I look back on.

I did I wait so long. You know? Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Right like, oh, life isn't supposed to be an awful, like, grueling affair that you're just putting up with. Like it's, it's possible to be happy and not

hate yourself. Oh, absolutely. And I think for me, there was also a resistance to asking for help because I also found that I had this idea on my head that the most enlightened, the best person would be the person that had no needs, they had no wants, they didn't need help from anyone, they would be completely self-sufficient. And so for me to ask for help to be like, I need to go back into therapy, I need to go back into a treatment facility. That would mean I was a weak person. And that would mean that, you know, I had failed, that I was not self-sufficient. And so it was getting over that portion of the ego to even just be able to reach out for help. Well, that goes back to the lower case uppercase doses and thing. I think one of the,

one of the more underrated lines in markets, really, he talks about, he says like, we're like soldiers storming a wall. If you fall, why would you not be able to ask a comrade to help pull you up like that? Like you should be able to ask for help because we're all doing this thing together. But and it's weird. It would, it seems so weird that it sometimes it takes more courage to like ask for help to admit that you fucked up to get therapy to like own something. Then it does to just like keep barreling forward, but in a weird way, like this is the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, but she really just means be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah, and it admit that we are social creatures and we need each other and there's nothing wrong with having needs, you know, that you can't fulfill on your own, you know. There's nothing wrong with realizing that you need other people in your life and that no man is an island type of thing. It's weird too because like when other people ask us for help,

we're not like, oh, what a fucking loser. Like, you know, like how like, like, like, that's never a reaction. We always feel unless you're a horrible person, your instinct is like, oh, I feel so bad for you. Why didn't you ask me sooner? What can I do? And then it just, it's inconceivable to us that people would have the same reaction when we would do it. Exactly.

And I think that, and then the other thing that I always have to remember is how do you feel when somebody asks you for help? You feel good. Like it makes you feel good to help somebody else. And so like I feel really good when I can help a friend who needs something. So, and that brings us closer together as friends.

And so why wouldn't the reverse be true, for instance? There's even a thing it was actually like if you're a very intellectual person, sometimes sometimes you have that emotional block so you kind of, you can if you can think your way through it. It's helpful like Robert Green talks about this, I think, in laws of human nature, but there's this thing called the Ben Franklin effect, which Ben Franklin realizes, like, hey, actually, if you do a favor for someone, they kind of resent you for it.

But if you ask someone to do a favor for you, cognitive dissonance works out, where now they feel somehow like you guys are linked together forever. And so actually asking for help can be, I mean, you shouldn't abuse this, but asking for help not only doesn't like draw on your capital in relationships, but it actually makes the relationship stronger because now you've been through something together. Oh, absolutely. I mean, there is a reason why you people ask about, about why run crazy races. Why do I run hundreds of miles and do all of that? There, there's a number of reasons, but the relationships that I have formed from like being out on a course with somebody running

around in circles for 24 hours, because you're going through shit together. And those are the people that like when you have that shared suffering, that's what brings people together, you know, and it's the same with relationships. If a person, if you don't ever need anything from your partner, like how are you actually ever going to even connect because it is just a series of mutual needs that you need to fulfill. And it was kind of funny that it took me a very long time to realize that. It's sad though to bring it sort of back full circle. You one would have hoped that, you know, a global pandemic that kills hundreds of thousands of people that devastates small businesses and forces us to make all these changes and sacrifices. You'd hope that you'd get that coming together,

right? Like no one would say that the coming together out of 9-11 was worth going through 9-11, but it is the only redeeming quality in a tragedy. I don't know what it says about where we are now or what we have to do differently, but it's so sad to me that like the opposite of that has happened. Yeah, no, I agree. And I actually remember back,

I think I wrote a blog post back in March or something like that about how I was certain that this was gonna to be awful, but it was going to bring us all together as people. I know, well, I just, you know, how naive I was, and you're right, and I don't really know where we went wrong there, except to say I think that a leadership vacuum in terms of not being able to follow a coherent kind of, not having a coherent message that, and everyone listening to the same message

was able to drive us apart. Because I realized that I started thinking like how good people not believe this is real or how good people, and I just, and then I went down the rabbit hole at looking at other news sources that I don't generally look at. And I go, oh, that's how they believe it, you know?

Because there is a, there's not a singular message that's being put out. So we are then divided because it's based on what you choose to listen to. I was talking to Emily Oster, who's amazing about this. And it was like, you sort of look back at those propaganda posters from World War I or World War II. And they seem so childish.

Like, loose lips, synch ships, or like, you know, keep calm in the hair out. And you're like, oh no, they were actually brilliant. Like, that's the level that the pot, like, what's that line in men and black, where it's like a person can be smart, but people are stupid. Right. It's like, no, be smart, but people are stupid.

It's like, no, no, the masses, like, which includes us, the mob is really dumb. And if the message is not like very clear and very simple, it's, of course, it's not going to work. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I still believe at, at each individual level level that people are good at heart and want to do the right thing. I truly believe that. Maybe I am super naive in that, but I do believe that we are all innately good. It's just we are not fall, we are all following disparate sources of information. And you know, that has created the chaos. Yeah, Marcus realist opens meditations with this idea of, he's like, okay, look, the people you're gonna meet today, they're gonna be jealous and mean and surly and silly

and all the things. But he goes, it's not that they're bad people. He's like, they've been cut off from truth or something happened to them. They don't know, they are good, but they don't know what good or evil is. And at the very least, the pandemic has been a test of,

of do you really believe that or not? Or you just, you know, it's like, because I was reading about John Lewis, obviously since he died this year. And he was like, there was a scene where he went, like, one of the, one of the men who beat him and one of the bus stations and the freedom rides decided he wanted to apologize. And so John Lewis, like, had him in his office, you know, and, and forgives him and,

and you're just like, wow, like, if you, if you get beaten nearly to death in a bus station and that doesn't break your hope in humanity, that's like that's the extra level stuff, but if it's like if he could do that, like what excuse do we have that we're just, you know, you know, that's that's sort of what I've been thinking about. Oh, absolutely, you know, and I think that especially this year, the one thing that I've learned from it is just trying to have compassion for everyone and that they're shaped and molded by various experiences and things like different ways. And so that's just been my one big thing. Even when I see somebody who I completely don't disagree with, and I just think, how can you possibly think that? I think, well, there's plenty of reasons why they could think that. I try to do that.

When you see the viral videos of some Karen freaking out in a grocery store about a mask, even even that horrible video of the of that woman in New York who's calling the police on that bird watcher. I mean, obviously you have to feel for the guy who's being put in real danger there. And you have, but what's happening is inexcusable and like we need to do better as a society to understanding like the the anguish and the fear that that's created in a whole segment of the population. But I've also tried as I watched that video, I tried to look at that lady and go like she's not having any fun here. Like this is a

horrible, that must be like she has to live inside that head. The person freaking out at Trader Joe's because they asked them to wear a mask or whatever. That is a broken person in a lot of pain. And they're doing a horrible thing and it's inexcusable to use your pain, to inflict pain on other people. But I do think the idea of sort of compassion and sympathy for people like that.

It's hard, but it's something you have to practice. Oh, absolutely. And it doesn't come naturally at all. It's obviously. You're right. No. I mean, we are quick to judge and condemn, you know? And I think, and in many ways, you know, that's, it's understandable.

But it has definitely been a harder practice for me. But I think one that's been helpful to try at least like create salvage some good that's going on in the world right now. Yeah, no one's happier having given up on people. That's what I try to remind myself. Like, you don't want to be a bitter, you know, depressed like, uh, hater of humanity. Like that's not, that's not going to get you where you want to go.

Nope. No. So last question, we'll wrap up. Are you racing again? Are you going to start racing again? Where are you with all that? Yeah, I mean, I will start racing when race has kind of come back. Um, I was able to run one run one race this year. That was very much kind of scaled down and smaller. But we'll see. I mean, so, yeah, so still out there competing, still out there trying to find silly things to do with my time and fail horribly at them. But that's kind of what keeps me going with it. So we'll see what 2021 has to offer for sure. It's it's weird because on the on the one hand, obviously, every athlete is in a battle against time and you once you like and the younger you are, the better you are at the thing. So there's obviously

that battle. And I guess it's a writer I experienced that too. There's also an element I was, you know, the MDA season starting and they were like, yeah, some of these athletes have had like 180 days off. starting and they were like, yeah, some of these athletes have had like 180 days off. And like they've never had 180 days off in their lives. And just like, to your point about rest, it's like, it may be the greatest gift ever, which is that it forced people to rest. And like I haven't, I haven't, I realize I haven't been home

for 10 consecutive months in my entire life. I mean, because we would go on vacation as a kid. So like literally my entire life, I have not been on an airplane this little. Oh, yeah. I mean, I've been on an airplane twice this year and I was before all of this happened really. And I mean, that's, I think I flew probably 60, 70 times last year. And it is just kind of incredible.

I mean, at the same time, I think we're all kind of wondering what happens, will be so rusty when we come back. I don't even know how to fuel for this race anymore. I'm not quite sure, but luckily, we're kind of all there together in it. So there could be actually great good that comes out of this in terms of athletics, in terms of athletics, in terms of creativity, in terms of writing, I'm sure, in the book world, so I know.

No, yeah, thank you so much. This is amazing. That's the perfect place to stop. Awesome. Thanks so much for listening. If you could leave a review for the podcast, we really appreciate it. The reviews make a difference, and of course, every nice review from a nice person helps balance out. The crazy people who get triggered and angry anytime we say something they disagree with.

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