The Daily Stoic - Ask Daily Stoic: Ryan and Billy Bush Discuss the Stoic Reaction to Public Shaming and How to Grow Beyond It

Episode Date: July 5, 2020

In today’s episode, Ryan and TV news anchor Billy Bush discuss how to deal with being publicly shamed, the practical use of premeditatio malorum, and what Billy learned from being enmeshed in a significant public controversy.Billy Bush is the current anchor for TV’s Extra, with a career in broadcast journalism spanning over 20 years. He was part of one of the defining moments of the 2016 US presidential campaign, when footage was leaked of a 2005 appearance by Donald Trump on Access Hollywood during which Trump made lewd comments about various women.This episode is brought to you by the Theragun. The new Gen 4 Theragun is perfect for easing muscle aches and tightness, helping you recover from physical exertion, long periods of sitting down, and more—and its new motor makes it as quiet as an electric toothbrush. Try the Theragun risk-free for 30 days, starting at just $199.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Billy Bush: Twitter: https://twitter.com/thebillybushInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/billybush/Extra on Twitter: https://twitter.com/extratvExtra on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/extratv/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy in a way that's more

possible here when we're not rushing to worker to get the kids to school. When we have the time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with our journals, and to prepare for what the future will bring. Ah, the Bahamas. What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for? FTX Founder Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded with other people's money, but he allegedly stole. Many thought Sam Bankman Freed was changing the game as he graced the pages of Forbes

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Follow Spellcaster wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, prime members, you can listen to episodes Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Still A Quadcast. I don't know if you remember what happened on October 7th, 2016, but that date is seared into the memory of my next guest. The person that I talked to on the podcast this week is someone I've gotten to know over the last three plus years, someone who I would not have expected I would get to know,

someone I would have not expected to have a friendship with. Certainly when I was sitting down and writing my books, not someone I thought that I was writing for, but that's the direction that life takes us, and specifically it took me, and it's been an eye-opening friendship for me. It's been a sort of humbling and an educational one for me, and it's just, you know, one I think is sort of emblematic of our times. And so the person I'm talking about, I'm talking about Billy Bush, and if you don't remember what happened on October 7th, 2016,

that is the day that the Access Hollywood tape of Donald Trump infamously and alarmingly talking about grabbing women by the pussy and all the other disturbing gross things that were recorded on that bus while filming a segment for Access Hollywood for which Billy Bush was the host. And we don't need to get into the politics of it. I don't think we need to get into whether those remarks qualify or disqualify someone for president. I think we can all decide that individually. What I'm interested in, I think this is very much a non-political episode, I'm interested in how does it feel to have a single event define your life? How does it feel to have something that you'd utterly forgotten about that had happened years and years earlier?

That by the way, you were not the sort of primary guilty party for come back and utterly up-end your life. As I say to Billy, a lot of people are interested in what happened on that bus, but I'm interested in the fact that basically Billy Bush got hit by the bus. And I'm interested in that, not just because it's human and it's real and it deals with the intersection of technology and culture and so much of what's going on in our world right now,

but because of the journey that that put Billy Bush on specifically to Stoicism. You know, if you read the Daily Stoic, you read the obstacle as the way, he's done a number of the challenges now that we've done with Daily Stoic. And he and I have had a number of discussions about Stoicism since. And so when we talk about stoicism as being this philosophy for life, we're not just talking about James Stockdale in a prison camp and we're not just talking about, you know, university professors, we're talking about real people who find themselves

in incredible surreal, life-altering situations. And we're looking at how one survives that, how one picks up the pieces of their life. Again, even if you think that Billy Bush is totally guilty, that he made a huge mistake, that he was as complicit in what happened as Trump was, which I don't agree with at all. But even if you think that, do you think that he deserves the career death penalty? Do you think that he should be driven to despair and despondency to the point where he contemplated suicide as I happen to know Billy did?

And it's been weird from my books because my first book is about sort of medium manipulation and the sort of mob mentality of the online system. And because of my stoicism books, I happen to meet a lot of the people that have been on the other side of what we now call public shaming or sort of mob justices. And even when they are culpable,

and even when they have made major mistakes, these are situations I try to respond to with sympathy, with empathy, with understanding. What I said because most beautiful essays is an essay about clemency, which is how do people with power treat people who are without power? And one of the things that our system now does

is very quickly take a powerful person and render them someone who is now without power. And so this conversation with Billy I think is illustrative again I try to get into the personal of it I want to know how does someone bounce back from something like that how does one deal with and process what must have been an overwhelming number of different emotions from fear and anxiety to anger and pain and self-loathing and how can good come out of that. And you know, Billy talks about a New York Times op-ed that he wrote that he feels like he never would have had the opportunity to have written had this not happened. He talks about the new gig that he has. He's now the host of Fox's extra and he talks about how he's tried to keep going through this pandemic, how I think other people may be caught off guard by their life flipping upside down, but he's had at least a little bit of training in this. And then I think

more inspiring is how he's tried to become a resource or a shoulder for people who have now found themselves in similarly surprising, unnerving, overwhelming situations as he had, which of course I think is at the core stosis of how do we, if we can't solve something for ourselves, how can we at least help those who come after us. Then finally, we talk a little bit about momentum or because less or known fact, but shortly after this happened to Billy Bush, he was nearly killed in a golf accident. And so, you know, Billy's life intersects so well with the things we're talking about. I appreciate him, you know, being

willing to share. I could certainly understand just wanting to close that chapter of my life and never talk about it again So you can hear him on the podcast he's upbeat. He's interesting. He's vulnerable and willing to share And I hope you give this episode a chance and again, I hope we can put in a little bit of a police aside and just focus on the human element Which is certainly what I try to do in this episode and I hope you can as well All right, so so walk me through your introduction to Stoicism.

I'm flat, and I believe it was one of my books, but do you remember how you came to hear about them? Yeah, it's the Daily Stoic, and it was given to me by a great friend when we all go through something in life and I was going through my thing. My friend, David Walulton, who's an actor, done a lot of different shows about a boy on NBC and a new girl on Fox. And anyway,

he said, you got to read this every day, page a day. And I threw myself into it and it was really, really important. It opened my eyes to life. So I became a modern stoic in that moment. Now I love it. And talking about you going through something, I imagine most people want to know or are curious about sort of what happened on that famous incident on the bus, but I'm more interested in what happens

to a person when they are figuratively hit by a bus. Your life was going along, your career was never better and then you find yourself, you know, how does that affect a person? I'm fascinated with that. Well, you know, if you're fort a person? I'm fascinated with that. Well, you know, if you're fortified and you're studied in stoicism, it doesn't affect you that terribly because you've become a master of controlling your reaction to things. Certain events, you know, happen. The basic tenet stowsism is, you know, you can't control events. You can only control how you react to them.

And I was just so unprepared because, as can happen in this, you know, internet age, in two seconds, you can go from as high as you've ever been to as low as you've ever been, and getting lower. And it happens on a dime. And I was not fortified. I fell apart completely and realized how immature and, you know, weak, I guess I was. And I had to build myself up back from that sort of entirely. And stoicism helped a lot. I think the next bad thing that happens to me, there will not be, and will not fall apart, like I did, because I know bad things are gonna happen again. At some point, something.

It must have been a surreal experience too, because obviously you played a role in what had happened and there were things I imagine you look back you'd wish you'd done differently. But at the same time, you were getting, it must be weird to be the recipient of a lot of anger and rage and pence of feelings that people have that you must have known really had not that much to do with you.

And yet there wasn't anything you could do about it. Nothing you can do about it. That's right. And yeah, it's sort of a lost feeling, but nobody goes unscathed, you know, in life. And that's an absolute fact. If you haven't gone through something calamitous, you will. And the best thing you can do is be ready for it, right?

There's another tenant of stilicism is to expect it. It's to lie and wait for it. Imagine it, picture it, and then sort of feel out how you'll respond to that. What's the best way? And know that it will pass. and you will move on and you will grow. It's very hard to know that until you've gone through it.

Yeah. So is that something you actively practice now that your life sort of has regained some some ones of normalcy? You're you're back on TV. You're doing what you do. Obviously, we're in the middle of a pandemic. So that's sort of one of these unexpected events. But, but do you sort of practice that, that idea of pre-medication, morham? How do you fortify yourself? Yeah, I also am just a, I grew up. I think I had some growing up to do anyway in my life. I had a reckoning do for me in my life, because I think it was pretty sheltered and pampered and you know

one contract after the next a little more money here a little more money kept going keep going talking to celebrities hey what up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up and up form like, woo, the details. It's so unique. But I got it. And two years ago, two and a half years ago, I would think it impossible to be able to sit at any point and say, boy, that was actually a good thing because I think I stood to be a little more patient. I could be a little nicer. I could be a little more thoughtful of other people. And having your ass handed to you, you know, like that, brings that gift with it. In the end, if you're willing to accept it. Yeah, it must be strange for you now to sort of watch also.

I wonder what sort of insights it gives you into where we are culturally. I was, I won't get into specifics of it, but I was watching some sort of thing that all my friends were sharing on, on social media, sort of a social justice thing, you know, a video came out on the internet, and they were all very convinced that they knew exactly what happened, and they were demanding, you know, sort of very specific actions.

And they totally agree on the, on the face of this from what I saw, it does not look good at all, But it is interesting how quickly the mob mentality sort of rises up within us and how bad we are as a culture, questioning those simple narratives and that lack of any humility that we might not know what happened just yet and it may need time to sort itself out.

Yeah, that's true. And I think, although since, you know, three years ago when my sort of world came undone in an instant, I think it's gotten a little bit better and people have gotten a little more open to embracing failure and falling down and forgiving and letting people sort of see how they respond and build themselves back. That's the ideal. Oprah said, it's not the little successes in her life that led to the big success. It's the failures. We have to be able to fail. We have to tell our children it's okay to fail and to not be at your best and to screw up and be deplorable or do whatever it is as long as you can, you know, and then build yourself back up, but people have to allow other people

to do that. And it's not sustaining to not allow people to do that, because it's gonna be you looking at some point for that welcoming empathetic embrace and the room to better yourself. Yeah, it's like we do a bad job imagining ourselves on the other side of the judgment we are swiftly rendering against other people.

So I, I, has, has going through this, made you, I would wonder if it would make you a better journalist in that you're more empathetic. Way better. Yes. Way more empathetic. Way more understanding, not about, not about cast judgment. And I was a little bit of a judgy shit in a way sometimes.

I looked back at like, you know, six years ago, oh my god, no one in Hollywood stays married. Look at these people, they're so immoral and then, then, then, look at what a little high horse are you on, you know what I mean? And now, there's always something more. You never have the full picture. You know, you're, you're, you're

sort of DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy, cognitive behavior therapy. These are things my child is going through and I've learned, I think I should teach it in every university. You don't know what someone's going through, what the different ingredients are, what all the components are. So wait, breathe until you do, right? And then justice is a stoic value, you know what I mean? So it'd be served, but this, you know, lash out, destroy thing is not sustainable and it's not gonna help anyone.

Yes, Seneca, he says, you know, like we're wicked people living amongst wicked people. And I think making sure that you see that you probably wouldn't stand up to scrutiny if your worst most embarrassing moment was flashed in front of the entire world as one of yours was. Yeah, and that's not even my worst. I mean, if I went through, if everything we did in our lives was public domain, I mean, every one of through, if everything we did in our lives was public domain, I mean, every one of us, I think, would be, you know, torched. If we wouldn't select it out, let me see. Ryan Holiday, circa 93. Let me see. Let me find a moment. And then I'm going to judge Ryan Holiday on that moment, in that moment alone. Yeah, no, and I think that's why this no sort of talk about resisting the impulses of the mob.

Yeah, I think the, the mob is comforting though, right? I guess, I mean, I don't know if I've ever been, I've never launched a hate tweet in my life and never would. I'm too scared. And you know, that karma's got to come back in some form. I wouldn't do that. But you know, the mark, yeah, it feels good, I guess, community and, you know, knocking people down. It's kind of a dopamine hit or something.

Well, yeah, it's like you got to be awfully certain of yourself to write the things that people are willing to write about people they've never met on social media. Yeah, I've been so wrong about people so many times. It's like that guy guy this, that guy that or maybe it's a reflection of my own insecurity or something and then you meet them and you're like, what a terrific guy. Well, you know, I like that woman. It's just how many times have we all done that? You know, totally. Well, I was talking to someone the other day and actually all this podcast is in Ben Hardy.

He's a great writer. He was talking about how, you know, what you want to do is realize that the person who you were in the past is a different person than who you are now. And the person who you'll be in the future is a different person than who you are now. And so, you know, I imagine one of the things people have asked you is this idea of like, if you could do it again, would you do it differently? Yes, of course I would.

I don't, I mean, it happens. It's a moment. And I think what would happen, I didn't react well. I didn't drive the moment. I just didn't react well. I'm't drive the moment. I just didn't react well. I'm reacting in a way that I'm sure I would love to have reacted differently. But that's kind of what I came up with in the moment

and it was too bad, wrong one. Well, that's sort of my point. It's kind of an uninteresting question because of course you would do it differently. And even if you were not a good person, you'd have done it differently because the response was so overwhelmingly negative, like who would do it the same way?

I'm more interested in like, what have you learned from that experience and from the experiences of the last couple of years? I'm like, how do you feel like it's changed you as a person? What's the journey you're on? Being more empathetic is one of them, but what else do you sort of bring to your job and your life that you feel like maybe you didn't have

when you were a different person before we're having gone through this? You know, better ears, better listener to what other people are saying and going through. I'm very interested in transformational stories. I want to see people who have been falling down. I want to see them get up. I want to be part of the movement that says,

hang on for a second. He amongst us, who doesn't have this capability within themselves. Stand, stand up, come forward, let us applaud you because you are unbelievably noble and fantastic. But if you can acknowledge that you do have that wiring within you, that you are wired equally for evil as you are for good, then let's watch this person get up. I'll never forget when Jimmy Fallon had no, an enormous Donald booked on the Tonight Show. And Norma said something, I don't know about

Roseanne Barr, it might have been favorable or something, but it was like Roseanne was definitely out on the outs and not good and Norm's something. All of us, she's been canceled. Norm's an okay guest, right? Good guy, really funny, but it's not like you just got Spielberg or whatever, but you know, they cancel them. Norm, you can't come on, you've upset too many people. And on our staff, and you know, we're injured from what you've said, and we have to let you go, and he was in the makeup room. All of a sudden, Norm, that's a guy, all of a sudden you've got an A plus booking.

What are you talking about? I would say, I would have him on for sure and say, what did you mean? or that's a guy, all of a sudden you've got an A plus booking. What are you talking about? I would say, I would have him on for sure and say, what did you mean? What were you saying? It wasn't taking that way, you know, that way, tell us more. And listen to what Norm has to say at that point.

Instead of stuff him down like a hatch, he was gonna be left like, okay, well, geez. Here I go. That's part of what I've learned, vested in people being able to experience failure and then go on to success. No, that's a really interesting point because we talk about not wanting to normalize things. And in a weird way, I almost wonder if that's the wrong way to think about it. You should make it normal so we can have a conversation about it. And then you could, you could reasonably try to open someone's mind or reach them or, or at

least try to figure out why they're operating the way that they're operating on this sort of idea of canceling people or deleting them or eliminating them because they ran a foul of some illusionary, constantly moving lines seems both very short-sighted and then also, as you said, very unkind. Right, but like, here's the thing, right, about cancel culture. What if that person says, I agree. What I did was just awful.

I'm really not who I've been. I've done that. I want to, I want to do better. Isn't that person now aligned and a supporter of the cause that's at the root of your reaction? Right? They're now on team. They're with you. So why wouldn't you want to be stronger in numbers? Like welcome aboard. You know what I mean? Well, that's sort of the irony, right? Is that the way that the cancel culture works? Is it really only punishes the people

who are at their core decent or normal people? And the irony is that it is the trumps or the cast of the Jersey Shore or the extreme, extreme end of the spectrum. And not to conflate the Jersey Shore with Trump. But the point is, it's only the people who have decided, I really don't care what anyone says or anyone thinks of me, and I am deciding not to play by society's rules at all

that are not set like you can't cancel Donald Trump. They could cancel Billy Bush. But they could, like of the people on that bus, only one of them really felt any consequences for that exchange. Yeah, no, because it's the voters that decide, but I can get fired by NBC in two seconds. That's, you know, no problem.

But by, but you can't fire him. He's running the people are gonna vote for him or not. And, you know, and they went on and did. I mean, so, so yeah, no, it's, and I do feel like, because I remember we talked about it at the time, you have, I think, tried also, you know, your point that Norm would then make great television.

I think that's the other sort of stoic part of this, which is like, even if this is not ideal, even if we don't want this, how can we then use the spotlight or the attention or the moment for good in some way? And I really liked the New York Times op-ed that you wrote. I don't think you would have been in a position to write that. Had you not gone through what you went through? I literally just wrote it. And I sent it to a friend and I said,

what do you think? He said, I'm sending this to my friend at the New York Times. I said, well, go ahead. I mean, I was just going to put it online or something. And so the guy called me and yeah, they ran with it. But it was an eye opener for me. And I'll tell you what led me to write that, is I just finished your book, The Obstacle is the Way.

Here's this obstacle in my life. It's destroyed me. I'm so deeply depressed. I'm thinking of horrible things I could do to myself to get away from it all and take the easy way out and all these terrible things, because it just hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt, hurt. And then I read the obstacle is the way,

and I'm telling you what a brilliant book, like wait a minute, why am I trying to run away, hide from, run around? No, go right through the darn center of the thing. And that book is what led to the New York Times update. You know, you deeply affected somebody in a really hard spot. So I'll always, you know,

and then I've gone under read everything else you've done. So you know I'm a fan. No, that means a lot to me. That is ultimately what I'm trying to do. And I think that's what the, you know, Sennaka goes, what is philosophy offer? Philosophy offers counsel. And I think what's so the, you know, Santa Monica goes, what is philosophy offer, philosophy offers counsel? And I think what's so powerful about writing in philosophy

is I think you and I had met by this point, I don't remember. But the point is those words from, you know, these ancient people all these years ago, were there in the moment that you needed them. And I'd be curious, if someone listening is going through something right now, maybe they just lost their job because of COVID or maybe they messed up and did something dumb, or they're, you know, they're going, when you're in that, that sort of hellish, dark place,

I'm just curious as someone who's now come out of the other side of it, what would you say to yourself if you could look back and talk to that person? Well, what I do now is I've taken to making random phone calls to people that are the next ones in the media to take a hit. I reach out to them. I remember there's a Buffalo news weatherman in Buffalo or no Rochester. He was, they said that he said, you know, racial epithet on the air, listen to it, 10 times over, I didn't hear it, I didn't hear it, I still couldn't hear it, I still couldn't hear it, there's no way looking at this man's life that this is a racist human being. I know he's not. And his life completely dismantled in front of him. And I just I called him and I said, I'm Billy Bush. He's like, the Billy Bush that that guy said, yeah. And I know exactly what he'll you are in

right now and your family and everything. And he's like, Oh my God, like, what is this? And we just talk for half an hour and check in on him every once in a while. I'm worried because public shaming is so unbelievably brutal that I'm worried people take their lives. I mean, to go all the way to the, you know, that's not an overstatement. Many have because of it. And I was worried about this person in Rochester. So him, you know, I've done it many times. How do you feel doing that? Is that something that people have to attack? I have to. I'm a human being. I know what it feels like. To not do that is what have you learned?

What have you learned, man? I've learned a lot of things. That's part of what I've learned. And first and foremost is the guy's safety. I need him to know that it's going to be okay. That it And first and foremost is the guy's safety. I need him to know that it's gonna be okay, that it's gonna be better on the other side. And people have said that to me,

and sometimes it might work, and I listen to him, and sometimes I told him you have no idea what you're talking about, shut up. But coming from me, something so public, something so, that he had, how could he, he'd have to believe me? Sure. No, you have a unique authority about what it is like to have life kick your ass.

And I am curious about that now, because I do feel like life is kicking collectively the ass of maybe the whole country right now. How have you, having been through what you've been through the last couple of years, what was your sort of inclination and reaction to what was happening? Were you prepared, like you said,

you wanted to be prepared, and how have you sort of gotten through it so far? Yeah, the first thing I did was, I went to my bosses and said, we are an essential business. I am a journalist. I am not reading gossip on a teleprompter. I'm a journalist.

I tell stories. I get information. I call people. I do my work. We're an essential business. I know what's going to happen. I know that cable news on one side is going to begin politicizing this thing and using it as their weapon.

The other side is going to start doing that. And then that's going to take the information. And I honestly want to just get to the basic information every night with our medical professionals and give it to people straight from the independent, politically independent voice that I am. And they said, OK. I said, I don't want to do this from home. I want to come in to the studio and keep that sense of normalcy

and they said, all right, and so we have a very lean crew and I haven't missed one day. And I think we're the only show in our genre that is doing that, but we're doing it responsibly. And it's important because I know we're going to get through it. I know we're going to get to the other side. And I know that a tremendous opportunity for growth for all of us in this culture is upon us.

I wanna be part of that. So macrocosm of what happened with me is a micro, but this is a massive challenge. And I think we could be a whole lot better on the other side, I believe it. No, I believe it too, I believe it too. I believe it too. All right, so last question.

This is a little sensitive as well, but I think deep and I think very connected to stoke philosophy. So most people know what happened there on the bus. Fewer people know that was it several weeks after not long after, you nearly died, right? You got hit in the head with a golf ball. To walk me through your near death experience

and what you learned from that. Yeah, I did. I was playing at the twilight and a whole bunch of us decided to, you know, group up on the last hole in order to finish by daylight. And I was off to the right and looking on a ravine and my friend who's a very bad golfer,

took a terrible three wood. friend who's a very bad golfer, took a terrible three wood. I mean, a three wood. And he ripped it. And it bounced once before it hit me, thank God. But it was coming. It came in like unbelievable. Missed my center of the temple by about a centimeter.

But it nailed the side of my head just off my temple. But it started swelling up badly and I knocked out and I fell down and I knew I was in serious trouble and I thought this is I'm gonna swell up and die here. And I started yelling for help and they're like laughing for a second and then when they realize it's real, they you know, my guy, my buddy, swang the guy that hit me. In short, with me to the hospital and we were in a CAT scan machine in 35 minutes. And they monitored me overnight and the whole thing and in the end, I was, I was okay.

But I certainly thought in that car ride, wow, this could be the end, but keep breathing, keep going, we're gonna get there, we're fine and made it. I feel bad for my friend. What did you have him played with him since? Yes, right, right. What did coming that close, especially in sort of connection to your, your, it's like, it's like,

you went through career death and then almost actual death in such a short time. I get a message here of God. Take me. Just go ahead. I got the point. This place is better off without me. So just, but, um, yeah, they're coming to finish you off. Yeah, finish me off with a lot of of God. Stop it. No, I don't know. I think I realized sort of on the other side of that, I think it was actually a let's get going. You know what I mean? The worst is definitely behind this now. I don't know if I'm the luckiest guy because of that or the unlucky as guy. But I'm going to choose the luckiest guy because I could have died and I didn't know. Let's get rolling. You having been through what you've been through, it would turn down the volume on a lot of

crap on, you know, it would allow you to go through life not being bothered by the things that a lot of us blow up and allow us to bother us. I'm better with that. I used to sweat that small stuff like crazy. I was actually, I remember every little detail would drive me crazy at work. If we missed this or someone missed that, I was kind of like, who did that? Why did we get that wrong?

Like, you're so-and-so. Now, I don't give a shit. And I say, you know what? We get another show tomorrow. Don't worry about it. It's fine. And I feel so good to be that person, because imagine the young producer who's scared

that they screwed up something that they were supposed to have in my thing, you know, and I was some kind of mercurial prick because of it, you know? And instead of, hey, don't worry about it. We got another show tomorrow, do you go fix it? No, not a big deal.

That's the guy you want to work for, you want to learn from, you wanna be around. I wanna be that person. I choose to be that person. And I imagine that person does better work, right? That's the irony is like, it's not that you care less, it's that you care more about the things

that you have control over and thus do a better job. When we got, I started extra, the entertainment show when, you know, in September. And it was a one year deal for Fox. They said, we'll give you a shot for a year and Billy Bush is the new host and we're coming in and changing the show and five weeks later. And extra, it always got in a year to year pickup, you know, kind of NBC would take it for a year. And okay, we'll do one more year. And so everybody like, you know, people who are employees, like if they had a roof project

on their garage, you know, they couldn't, I don't know if I'm gonna be working a year from now. So I don't know. We went in and in five weeks, Fox came and said, we will pick this show up for a total of four years. And it was like jubilation in the hallways and all these employees and we were celebrating together and I got gifts and I these employees and we were celebrating together and I got gifts and I

got letters and I got tears from moms, you know single moms who were working at the show and now they can whoo take a breath and I really felt like oh my god it's not not giving myself the credit for it but you know I threw myself in and we and we decided to change the program. My executive producer was terrific and she's been awesome and we did it together and I just It was it was like wow how about that after all this comes this so hang in there whoever you are No, that's that's the perfect place to close it Billy. Thanks so much Ryan I love you. You've been a great influence in my life through your work and and the person you are. I thank you. Oh man, hit me up anytime. If you're liking this podcast, we would love for you to subscribe.

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