The Daily Stoic - Ask Daily Stoic: Ryan and NBA G League Coach Coby Karl Answer Your Questions About Stoicism and Sports

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

Today Ryan talks with Coby Karl, a former member of the Los Angeles Lakers and current head coach of the NBA G League’s South Bay Lakers. They take questions from Daily Stoic readers and listeners about the merits of coaching, and how to stay physically and mentally healthy with the tenets of Stoicism.This episode is brought to you by Future. Future pairs you up with a remote personal trainer that you can get in touch with from your home. Your trainer will give you a full exercise regimen that works for your specific fitness goals, using the equipment you have at home. It works with your Apple Watch, and if you don’t already have one, Future will give you one for free. Sign up at tryfuture.com/stoic and get your first two weeks with your personal trainer for just $1.This episode is brought to you by GoMacro.Go Macro is a family-owned maker of some of the finest protein bars around. They're vegan, non-GMO, and they come in a bunch of delicious flavors. Visit http://gomacro.com and use promo code STOIC for 30% off your order plus free shipping.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryanholidayInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanholiday/Facebook: http://facebook.com/ryanholidayYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Coby Karl and the South Bay Lakers: https://twitter.com/SouthBayLakersSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoke, where each day we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living good life. wisdom necessary for living good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000 year old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com. It's, hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars.

And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to Business Wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. We are doing another episode of Astyle Stoke today, but with a guest, as you know, we've had Stephen Pressfield on, we've had Austin Cleon on, and then this week we've have Kobe Carl, the former NBA player, now the head coach for the Los Angeles Lakers, G League team, the South Bay Lakers. He shot me a random email. Apparently

he got my email from Brent Berry, the former NBA player who's now at the Spurs. It's been really cool to see the book sort of work their way through the NBA and professional sports over the years Certainly when you sit down and you write a book about ancient philosophy or not thinking like professional sports But I think the reason the books have resonated in sports is First and foremost the the still X were almost certainly athletes Marcus really is talks so comfortably about wrestling, about boxing, he was a hunter, he clearly, although he wasn't into sort of frivolous activities,

I think he saw sports as a metaphor, as a training ground for life. And this goes way back in the Stoke history, there was one of the early Stokes clientes, was a boxer, Cricipus was actually a distance runner. They did this insane distance event in ancient Athens. So they would run something like three or four miles,

but it wasn't like in a long track. Like we did it was almost basically like wind sprints. So they ran like a couple hundred yards, touched the ground, a couple hundred yards, touched the ground, and they went back and forth for up to three miles. So sports sort of permeates stoic philosophy in the ancient world because it was an opportunity

to test those forced stoic virtues of temperance and justice and wisdom and most of all courage. Epicetus speaks probably the most familiarly with athletics, which is somewhat interesting given that he was sort of permanently crippled. But in one part of his lecture, he says, like, it's sort of show me your shoulders. He doesn't want to see what they look like in an athlete. He's not interested in what the athlete's physique looks like. He's interested in what the athlete is capable of doing.

What can they lift? What have they been able to accomplish from the training that they're doing? So I don't think the sort of stoicism sports thing is just this kind of interesting quirk or random twist of audience for my books. I think that actually sports are a place that we test out these virtues in both a safe but also a sort of a high stakes environment. And so it was really awesome to get to talk to Kobe. His team was playing up near Round Rock. They played the Austin Spurs,

which is ironically the farm team of the San Antonio Spurs, who I've been lucky enough to talk to as well. So they played last night, it was telling me sort of a close played game. They'd almost pulled off a victory. Of course, my loyalties are torn, knowing both teams, but he had then spent the extra day that they had a trip before they were supposed to go.

I think they're playing in Iowa. He wanted to use this as sort of a development day. So he took the team to team building exercise all morning, and then he was spending this time in Austin trying to meet and talk to people who could help him get better at what he's doing. And I've been, we talked about this a little bit in the episode, but I've been really sort of humbled and inspired and encouraged with the coaches that I've gotten to meet through the books

because they are sort of obsessed with getting better. They're willing to learn from everyone. We talk in the episode a little bit about coaching and what it's like to be coachable. But I've actually been very interested in impressed with how coachable most of the coaches are, sort of how hungry they are to learn how uncomplaced and they are. There's sort of very much the embodiment of that idea from Epic Titus, you know, that you can't learn that, which you think you already know. These coaches don't think that they're as good a coach as they can be. In fact, each off-season,

they're working on getting better, and then throughout the season, they're working on getting better, and that means asking for advice. That means reading books. That means listening to podcasts. That means watching videos. Like the amount of coaches that I've heard from that have either listened to this podcast or watched her YouTube videos, you might think that these coaches have no time

to watch YouTube videos. But that is what they're doing, and they know that if they can get one insight that helps them connect with one player in one play of one game, it could totally transform that kid's life. It could transform the coach's life. It could transform the fate of an entire season. And so it's awesome to get to talk to Kobe.

I'm hoping we're gonna bring some more people to you guys that are sort of applying stoicism or these philosophies in the real world in interesting ways. And I hope you like the format and keep sending us your questions and we will talk again very soon. I'm Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of Ask Daily Stoic. I'm here with Kobe Carl, former NBA player, head coach of the South Bay Lakers, player, head coach of the South Bay Lakers and any other superlatives we should add. Father of two, father of two. So we're here. You send in your questions info at dailistoke.com. And we

answer them. And so our first question today, this is from forest. My name is forest. I'm a student at the University of Utah. Here's my question, what advice does Stoicism provide for dealing with diet, exercise, and lifestyle, and joy being healthy? But as a college kid, I also enjoy my fair share of intoxication. You and I were just talking about moderation. So maybe we, maybe we start there. What do you think? I mean, one thing I've learned as I've gotten older is I was really disciplined as an athlete, and I was probably over disciplined. Okay. So, you know, I don't know how this applies in a city stosome, but I've learned to enjoy certain things.

Sure. I guess it does apply, but not overdo it. Or rely on it in terms of a tradition. Yeah, I think so this idea of moderation pertains even to itself. So it's all things in moderation, including moderation. Obviously, alcohol was even more prevalent in the ancient world than in today because water was typically contaminated. So one of the interesting things you see in the ancient Texas, they do talk about drinking wine all the time,

but anyone who like didn't water their wine down was considered like a barbarian, right? Like it was a sign of a very unbalanced person that you wouldn't dilute the wine. And that's because the wine was stronger than it is today. But so the symbol for moderation actually in most sort of ancient literature or art is of someone sprinkling water into wine. So I don't think you, like personally, I don't drink,

I just, but it's more because I just don't like it. I think the idea is, how can you do this thing in a way that you're in control rather than it's in control of you? And I think that's what happens with college students. Yeah, now as I see that, I mean, even in your life, you can see it's not just one thing that you do. Yeah.

But if it's controlling your life or you're doing it, maybe when you don't want to do it, yeah. I think that's when you got to take a step back and maybe try something different. But how do you talk to your athletes? Because I imagine one part element of training and being healthy. And then another element is just not getting in trouble. But there must also be like, you know, for some of them, this is the first time they made pretty good money. Or maybe you saw this when you're in the NBA,

like how do you talk to them about balancing sort of like working really hard and not maybe playing equally hard? Well, I think you can see it with athletes because the performance usually, or like the groginess when they come into practice, but for, you know, this generation is actually a lot different than the previous ones, where they're more focused and it's more video games and social media addictions rather than alcohol addiction or drug, whereas the league that I played in when I came in, we're still going out. Which I'm sure it still happens, but alcohol is more of an issue. And then even before

that, in the 70s and 80s, it was, you know, the cocaine with, you know, like the showtime, like, air. So, but yeah, what we're seeing now with our younger kids is like, they don't really like to go out. They don't like to get drunk or, you know, we see, like you said, a guy that don't even drink. But it is weird, like, with, with, like, pot, like, I don't have like a huge problem with pop, but it is interesting. It's like, if someone told me I couldn't do it, and then I'd lose millions of dollars, if I did do it, it wouldn't be a huge problem with pop, but it is interesting. It's like, if someone told me I couldn't do it, and then I'd lose millions of dollars, if I did do it, it wouldn't be a problem for me not to do it.

So it is interesting how the habit can be innocuous, but how quickly it can become sort of poor over the lives, and then we can't not do it. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I mean, I think that's when like mental health issues and addiction issues come into play, which is something I think is pretty prevalent now that we don't talk about a lot about. Sure. I just don't see it as much and maybe they're just covered up better or maybe with the money growing

in professional sports that it's just too big of a risk. I think that that's actually a good distinction. It's like, are you doing the thing because you actually enjoy the thing? In which case, it's probably not that bad, right? Are you doing the thing to treat some other thing? Like are you drinking because you don't want to feel depressed or are you smoking pop because it's treating your anxiety or whatever. You know, like it's when you're doing, when you're doing the thing as a way to not feel something. That's usually not a good sign. And that's true with work and exercise and ambition too. Well, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, even myself, I didn't drink until I was 21.

And then when I did, I was like, and I'm, you know, introverted, socially awkward. And when I did, I was like, wow, this is a lot easier to be in social situations. Sure. But that's where, you know, like, you gotta, you gotta take a look at, is it worth the ramifications of waking up with a hangover?

Is it taking away from, you know, your joy the next day? It was probably good to get the build the muscle of being socially, like having to be a socially awkward person in awkward situations and not have at an early age gotten the crutch. Yeah, I know I'm, for me personally, I'm happy I didn't have that because you see it as it was a lot of people at a younger age, and it becomes just a pattern. Sure. Like I'm going to put it in my body just to feel better or more at ease. Right, right, right.

Okay. Janice question, it's a question about mental toughness and perseverance. My whole life, I've been groomed to play professional tennis. I'm currently in the ITF circuit with little luck breaking through the next level. When I'm practicing I know I'm as good as anyone on the tour, but in matches I get nervous and then in my head about being nervous. She didn't have this as a kid, but it's manifesting now in her 20s. At these tournaments you can lose money, the travel expenses pile up and she's read about athletes reading stoicism to help in their games. Are there specific stoic practices

that could help get her out of her head-dring matches? And how do you know when it's time to move on from the dream and get a job that doesn't lose money? You know, like I dealt with some of those same things as an athlete, like we were talking about it earlier. My father was a workaholic. So like I learned how to work. Yeah. But I found how to work. Yeah.

But I found when I got to the level where I wasn't, you know, I wasn't either physically capable or I was running into these issues that she's running into was, and then I didn't have any, like, where's that gross comment? And that's where I think, you know, mental strength and meditation is something that I practice and I learn when I was playing

with the Lakers from Phil Jackson. And that to me was like the opposite of physical training. So being aware of it and then trying to have self-awareness of understanding why I'm nervous or why am I not performing in these situations is I think where the growth starts for an athlete. But, you know, most of the time as you want it so bad, that you're not able to step away from it and understand why. Well, have you read the inner game of tennis?

Yes, I have. So I would recommend that book. It'd be quite fitting here for an actual tennis player. But like that book sticks with me because sometimes it's like the other book that's similar is the Zen and the Art of Artery, which is that oftentimes you're sort of all the things that suit you well

sort of from a training perspective, like wanting it really bad, really loving it, having clear goals, messes with you in performance because you have to really perform at the elite level level you have to be able to turn everything down and become sort of fully president President and let the training take over and so I think I would read those two books It's like if you had some sort of physical Problem with your game like your backhand was slow or you know you shuffled your feet or you had some problem

You would break it down and you would work on it. And it's like, she may have to do that with the mental side of the game, which is like she has some problem, which is that she over thinks things, she can't get out of her head. So what are the training mechanisms to do that? And meditation being one,

instill this is key, I think sometimes you need to find balance by like finding hobbies or other things you're interested in. So it doesn't, you become a more balanced person. It could be a relationship. It could be a bunch of different things, but you've got to treat this as a serious deficiency in your game and address it. Yeah, well, as you were saying,

one thing I have a plaque on my desk that says, it's basically a privilege to play. So hard work is an activity. saying that one thing I have a plaque on my desk that says, it's basically a privilege to play. So like hard work is like, it's an activity. But like to truly play and we talk to our players often is like basketball is always basketball. Like play the sport of basketball, how you felt like when you first started playing

on the street or you didn't want to comment. You know, so the same thing is like, remember like, there was a day that you dreamt of playing on the tennis tour. Yeah. No matter what professional level it was, like, remember that. And then I think it can loosen you up. Like, I guess perspective is the best.

When I think I'd also go like, is thinking about this making you better, yes or no. And so oftentimes being conscious of these things isn't making you better. Like, I give a talk last week and the day, the night before the talk, one of the people putting on the talk sent me what they clearly thought was a nice email and it was meant very well. But they were like, hey, I just want, we're really excited to have you,

but basically weird backstory, like when we booked you, it was a whole problem to have you come and like some of the people don't want you. It was like that basically, right? And as I was reading this email, I could go like, if I finish reading this email, it will make me anxious, it will make me self-conscious, it will make me doubt myself, and it will not help my performance in the thing. And so like knowing sort of what those destructive thought patterns are and shutting them off,

there's a weird question. But have you seen the Taylor Swift documentary? Yes. I thought the most interesting scenes where she's talking about like some bad paparazzi photo and how it interacts with her like eating issues and she starts to like go and she goes, no, like we don't do that anymore. And that kind of self-talk can be really good too. Yeah, you know, for me in my life, I found that, you know, Facebook was just coming on when I was

in college. And I realized like, did you have to wait for your college email address to join me? Yeah, yeah. So like, and I found out like two years into Facebook, I was wasting so much time, and then like thinking about perceptions. And so I just got off. And part of it was I fell in love with my wife and I was like, I don't need these distractions and it's leading me in a different way. So I think that to me is a similar vein that, yeah, what are you doing that is leading you the opposite direction where you need to go?

Whether it's self-confidence or challenging situations that you know you can get through, but I mean, play to me is you know having fun playing with joy like those are the things that can get you through it. And understanding it's it's a privilege to lose a professional match. Like there's not too many people that have that opportunity in life. Yeah. And there's how many millions of kids that dreamt of doing that. Sure. Yeah. And then even thinking about it as play turns down the seriousness of it a little bit too.

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Follow Dissentel wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. Alright, so last question from Ziad. What are your thoughts on hiring coaches? Many of the great Stoke thinkers had coaches for specific skills growing up the idea of hiring a coach. Tell me you get better in my life would have seemed crazy. They've never done sports, never done counseling, never done camps.

I don't like the idea of someone thinking, you know, no better than me. How do you accept suggestions posed by a coach and what do you think about sort of making oneself more coachable? This seems a rather perfectly suited for you. But not just because you are a coach, but also we were talking earlier about performance coaches,

which even as popular as they are now, I don't think people most fans don't even realize that teams have psychologists and performance coaches and all those sort of things. I mean, like we were talking about as an athlete, I had the ability to grow physically with my skillset and then also through competition of failure. So now five years out of being an athlete, I'm missing that. So that's why we hired a performance coach to help us. Where do you find growth in your life? Sure.

It's one thing to read your books and read all these books, but to be of action and to have someone tell you you're wrong, or to do it in a different way, or to try, that that's the benefit of there's people outside of you that if you can trust or give yourself up to it, they can see it so much more clearly than you can. Sure. And, and that's where I was not very coachable because I grew up around coaching. I knew a lot. I knew too much. Too much like your dad to you. Yeah. You know, and like I knew I probably knew either equal or to more because I've been in so many situations around the sport where I was not coachable.

So I think it actually makes for me to be a better coach because I understand that not everyone is receptive to coaching. But the truth of it is if you really want to grow, you've got to have people in your life that are willing to tell you you're wrong or to do it differently. Sure. No, and yeah, someone's, what was convincing to me about coaches like Tiger Woods has a coach. Like he doesn't need one, but he has a coach, right? And yeah, when you look at stoicism, most of the early stoics had sort of stoke tutors early on who were sort of advisors their whole

their whole life. Marcus Realized famously has this guy named Junius Rousticus, who's his sort of like he was his philosophy teacher, but he keeps him with him his whole life. This is like a weird historical overlap that people don't really know, but like, like Aristotle was Alexander the Great's tutor and he brought him as he was conquering the world. He was like, Aristotle, you have to come with me. So you have like the most powerful man in the world with one of the smartest people in the world because they're both benefiting each other. And so, I think historically, not only should you have like coaches, you should have advisors, you should have tutors, it's been weird for me because not coming from the sports world,

like just the emails that I get from coaches, like you sent me an unsolicited email. Like, I was surprised that coaches do that and then I realized, oh, in some respects, like, it's that they're like always interested in learning, they're always learning. And this is a lot of the easy gains in sports have already been sort of tackled. So they looked for out of the box things.

But it was what I gave a talk at Alabama and Nick Sabin sat in the front row. And then he was the first one to ask a question. And I don't remember the question. And it occurred to me sometime after the fact that like, he, there was nothing I could have possibly told. Like, it was not even probably a serious question. But one of the things he was doing was probably modeling to his

players, like, ask questions. And so I think, I think coaches are also, like, ask questions. And so I think coaches are also, like, coaches are trying to practice what they preach, you know? Well, and it's interesting because my dad raised my sisters and I to be contrairions. Okay. So, like, growing up, like, I would question authority, I would question my coaches.

And so my rookie year, I was with the Lakers, Andrafted Free Agent, I was with the Lakers undrafted free agent going to training camp and Kobe Bryant was like, we were in training camp. And I went up to Kobe, I was like, you know, talking about Phil, like, you know, this old man, like he doesn't know anything, he was like, he like stopped like still.

Like record scratch? Yeah, like, he was like, that man, like, I'd listen to anything he said, you know, basically, he was like, he had, he had dropped his ego and understood that someone knew more than him that could help him get to where he wanted to get. And I think that's the, the essence of coaching is like, someone knows more than you. Well, yeah, there's an epictetus quote, you can't learn that, which you think you already know, which I love. And, and it's not in ego as the enemy, but I tell it now in my

talks in duty, Eevee was drafted by the Timber Wolves, and they tried to send him to what was then the D league, which was a terrible name for a league. G league is so much better because it doesn't seem like it's for failing students, you know, even though it actually stands for developmentally. But there's a quote from me, he's like, I am not a developmental player. Like, you will not send me to the G-Leaks. And it's like, it's not a good sign. So he, they cut him. And I think now he plays in Turkey.

But like, that decision, the decision to not be coachable and to not accept that a coach might know more than you, which is what they were saying. They said, like, I have trouble accepting that a coach knows more than me. It's like, of course, the coach probably knows more than you, which is what they were saying. They said, I have trouble accepting that a coach knows more than me. It's like, of course, the coach probably knows more than you. They might not know more than you completely, but they probably know more than you in specific areas in wherever they're criticizing you. And anyways, this decision probably cost them $50 million. Some obscene amount of money because if you think you're as good as you can be,

it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like you are as good as you would be possible. You put us in a good way. Yeah. No, and I've done this job for four years as a coach, which I love because I'm able to help others get to where they want to be. Yeah.

And it's pretty obvious now, like the guys who are gonna do it. Because they come in with the clear mind, they want to be coached, they want to learn, they're open to new things. And like we've had a lot of success stories, like we had David Noaba who's been up for, I think, four year MBA vet now, came in on a tryout. Really? And he never said a word, he never questioned anything, you know, stuck to his job and

just kept getting better. By the end of the year, he got a call up. Then he got a year contract. Then next year, Thomas Bryant, who's in Washington now, he came in as a rookie with us and the Lakers. And like, he wanted to be there. Like, he took the opposite approach. He was like, I love playing with this. Like, he wanted to play.

He wanted to grow. Sure. Alex Cruz, so he's gotten a lot of fame with the Lakers now. He just wanted to play. Like, he never questioned like, why am I in the G league? Why am I down here? And it's really obvious. And those guys inspire me and their staff

because they keep you young. Like, you know, like we need to learn more so we can inspire them. And look, it doesn't, the other thing because obviously sports is not real life. In real life, you might be very good at what you do, but chances are that bumps into a bunch of adjacent things that you're not that good at.

And so that's one of the things I think about is like, okay, like, who can I buy an hour of this person's time and get briefed on this? Or, okay, maybe hiring this publicist or this tax consultant or this marketing person or whatever, it might be really expensive and not make sense to do the math the one time. But if I take from that a bunch of things,

then you don't flinch when they say, like a year of college is $40,000. But then if someone says a consultant says an hour of their time is $1,000, you're like that's obscene. But you might learn more in that hour than you could in a whole class from someone. Or just the willingness to pay the money to do it. Yes.

We'll invest you in the process of it. Totally. So like, coaching is a thing, and there are specific coaches, and look, a lot of coaches, outside sports, or complete charlatans and liars. So, be careful. But I think you can also take a more expanded definition of what coaching is. It can be hiring experts. It could be having coffee or meeting with people who are experts in different things. It can be going to conferences.

It can be taking a job or an internship somewhere where by working with this person for six months or a year, you walk away with a set of skills or a feedback or it could be mentorship. We should also expand the definition of coaching because it's more complicated than that. No, I completely agree. Sitting here to me is surreal because I've read your stuff.

I've read the Daily Soak, the Daily Dad, done the meditations. Oh, thanks. And I just wanted to learn. Like it's something that resonated within me. So one thing, a performance coach, taught was like, just find someone that you're interested in,

and go spend time with it. It doesn't have to be Ryan Holiday. It doesn't have to be Kobe Bryant or Phil Jackson. You know, it doesn't have to be somewhat famous, but someone in your life that you admire, go spend some time with them, ask them questions. And I think that in itself, or someone that you respect, that is coaching in its own way, like mentorship. Yeah, and it doesn't have to, I think it doesn't have to be that official, right? It doesn't have, like coaching is like, you're the head coach, you get to decide

like whether I play or not, you know, that sort of thing. But it can be, like people think, mentorship is this like official, like I bestow you, you know, and it's like. But it can be, like, people think mentorship is this, like, official, like, I bestow you, you know? And it's like, no, it could just be like, hey, this person answers one out of five emails that you sent, or, you know what I mean? Or like, occasionally responds to tweets that you sent. Like, you can have a distant relationship and get a ton of coaching that way. It doesn't have to be like this crazy thing.

So start small and you can grow. Absolutely. There's a lockout a year when I was playing. So like usually in the summer I train with my dad's team, the nuggets at the time. Yeah. And they couldn't. So like I had a bunch of free time.

And one of my most impactful things was I reached out to Chris Peterson, who's a coach of Washington now, or he just retired, but he was a coach of Boise State football. And I reached out to him Peterson, who's a coach of Washington now, or he just retired, but he was a coach of Boycee State Football, and I reached out to him and spent an hour with him. The two books he recommended to me, spending that hour has influenced my life in coaching and life to this day, 15 years later. Look, for me, I was introduced to Stoicism because I was at a conference, and I asked a person for a book recommendation, and then I read that book, right? Like that's coaching.

Like coaching isn't also just getting the advice. It's like deciding to listen to it. Yeah. Awesome. This was really great, man. Thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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