The Daily Stoic - Ask Daily Stoic: Ryan and Sunday Night Football’s Michele Tafoya Talk Stoicism and Making the Most of Each Day

Episode Date: June 6, 2020

In today’s episode, Ryan and Michele Tafoya, NFL sideline reporter and radio host, discuss self-improvement in quarantine, sympatheia, and more.This episode is brought to you by WHOOP. WHOOP is a fitness wearable that provides personalized insights on how well you’re sleeping, how much you’ve recovered from your workouts, and how much you’re stressed out from each day. It’s the ultimate whole-body tracker for someone who needs an all-in-one solution. Visit WHOOP.com and enter STOIC at checkout to save 15% on your order.This episode is brought to you by Mack Weldon, an amazing online retailer for men’s basics. Mack Weldon believes in smart design, premium fabrics and simple shopping—and they’ve created a great new loyalty program, Weldon Blue. Try out Mack Weldon today. And for 20% off your first order, visit http://mackweldon.com and use promo code STOIC.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/ryanholidayInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ryanholiday/Facebook: http://facebook.com/ryanholidayYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Michele Tafoya: Twitter: https://twitter.com/Michele_TafoyaInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/micheleonsundays/Facebook: https://facebook.com/michele.tafoya.vandersallSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four that can help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here, on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy

in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school when we have the time to think to go for a walk to sit with our journals and to prepare for what the future will bring. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the

world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduke Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Codopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together they discuss their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to

learn along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired, and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early, and add free, on the Amazon, or Wondaria. Is this thing all? Check one, two, one, two. Hey y'all! I'm Kiki Palmer, I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Check one, two, one, two. Hey y'all, I'm Kiki Palmer.

I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo. I'm just the name of you. Now I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Kiki Pabag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a bad love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started. And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host.

I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby Mrs. Kiki Palmer podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind. What will former child stars be if they weren't actors? What happened to sitcoms? It's only fans, only bad. I want to know. So I asked my mom about it.

These are the questions that keep me up at night, but I'm taking these questions out of my head and I'm bringing these questions out of my head and I'm bringing them to you. Because on Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, no topping is off limits. Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, whatever you get your podcasts. Hey, prime members, you can listen early

and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. Today's guest is one of my favorite people, Michelle Tafoya. You might know her from her day job, which is as the sideline reporter for NBC's Sunday Night Football. She also usually does the Thanksgiving game.

She's the one handing out the big turkey leg, but Michelle is not only a great journalist covering the Olympics and tennis championships and all sorts of major sporting events, but also is a big student of Stoic philosophy and is a big part of how my books have made their way through professional sports. She heard about the book. I believe from Michael Embardi who brought the book to the Patriots, but when I was in Minneapolis several years ago, now Michelle was nice enough to have me on her radio show. We talked about how my books had made their way through sports and the Patriots. That was the story that got picked up all over and

really I think kicked off the trend of stoicism in sports. So Michelle is someone who has used her platform to help bring philosophy to all sorts of different people and you can follow her on Twitter. She talks about stoicism quite often just a really interesting lady and you know, we interviewed Michelle several years ago for Daily Stoic. We did an email interview. And, you know, she said something that I actually think about pretty often. I was asking her about breaking into journalism as a woman. And and they're sort of probably moments of frustration and unfairness. And she said, and this is

of course, she said, life is unfair. That is a fact. If life were fair, no child would ever die. If life were fair, everyone would look the same. If life were fair, cupcakes and potato chips would be good for you. And she said, accepting that life is not fair is liberating, it reminds you that there are some things with which you have to deal and accept. And she says, like, look, there's no value in playing the victim, there's no value in complaining. She's like, I focus on what I control. I focus on the work that I can do. And I focus on being really, really good at my job.

And as we talked about before, she says that she doesn't identify as a female sports reporter, but as a sports reporter. And she's saying that this notion helps her focus on the job at hand, rather than other people's perceptions. And so, you know, Michelle is a fascinating reporter. She's got some counterintuitive, contrarian viewpoints, which I love. And yeah, just a great chat we talked while she was in Florida where she'd been stuck during the COVID-19 crisis. And I think she's got some great advice for how to cope with that. So I'm a big fan of Michelle Tafoya.

I think not enough attention gets paid to the female Stoics out there. And unfortunately, the ancient world was a man's world. And so not enough recognition was given to the various female Stoics. But this is not a philosophy only for men. And as Musoneus Rufus says, which we talk about in the interview, there really is nothing gendered about courage or justice or wisdom or moderation. And so I think it's important that we show

just all the different walks of life and styles and approaches that this philosophy can be applied to and with. And Michelle's a great example of that. And so I hope you enjoy this conversation. Today I thought I would read Sena's letter 11 from letters from Astoak. This is the Penguin Classics Translations, one of my favorites. He says, I see in myself Lucilius not just an improvement but a transformation. Although I would not venture as yet to assure you or even hope that there is nothing left in me needing to be changed. Naturally, there are lots of things about me requiring to be built up or find down or

eliminated. Even this, the fact that it perceives the failings it was unaware of in itself before is evidence of change for the better in one's character. In the case of some sick people, it is a matter for congratulations that they come to realize for themselves that they are sick. I should very much like then to share all this sudden, menamorphosis of mine with you. Doing so would make me start to feel a sure faith in the friendship that exists between us, that true friendship, which not hope nor fear nor concern for personal advantage ever sunders, that friendship in which and for people are ready to die. I can give you plenty of examples of people who have not been lacking a friend,

but friendship, something that can never happen when mutual inclination draws two personalities together in a fellowship of desire for all that is honorable. Why can't it happen? Because they know that everything and especially their setbacks is shared between them. You can't imagine how much in alteration I see each day bringing about in me. Send me to you will be saying the things you have found so effectual. Indeed, I desire to transfer every one of them to you. Part of my joy in learning is that it puts me in a position to teach. Nothing, however, outstanding and, however, helpful,

will ever give me any pleasure if for the knowledge it is to be for my benefit alone. If wisdom were offered to me on one condition that I should keep it shut and not divulge it to anyone, I should reject it. There is no enjoying the possession of anything valuable unless someone has someone to share it with. I shall send you accordingly the, the actual books themselves,

and save you a lot of trouble hunting all over for the passages likely to be of use of you. I shall mark the passages so that you can turn straight away to the words I approve and admire. Personal converse, though, and daily intimacy with someone will be of more benefit to you than any discourse. You should really be here and on the spot, firstly,

because people believe their eyes more than their ears. And secondly, because the road is a long one if one proceeds by way of precepts, but short and effectual if by way of personal example. Clientes would never have been the image of Zeno if he had merely heard him lecture. He lived with him, studied his private life, watched him to see if he lived in accordance

with his own principle. Plato, Aristotle, and a host of other philosophers all destined to take different paths derived more from Socrates's character than from his words. It was not Epicurus' school but living under the same roof as Epicurus that turned Medidorus, Hermarchus, and Polyannius into great men. And yet I do not summon you to my side solely for your sake of your own progress but for my own as well, for we shall be of the utmost benefit to each other. Meanwhile I owe you my daily allowance. I'll tell you what took my fancy in the writings

of Hicato today. What progress have I made? I am beginning to be my own friend. This is progress indeed. Such a person will never be alone and you may be sure he is a friend of all. So I was looking at I was looking you and I texted each other in late February and I asked you if you were enjoying the offseason and you said immensely are you still enjoying the offseason? Well, things have certainly changed since February, haven't they? It's it's a very different kind of enjoyment. Our family's been sequestered, if you will, together just the four of us. And the one thing that I certainly have enjoyed is having dinner together

every single night. You know, there are no soccer practices, no baseball games. And that has been really cool. And, you know, that's sort of the silver lining in all of this. And we've been playing a lot of cards together. But it's, I am really trying, Ryan, to make the very most of every moment that we're in this

because I would hate to come out of it and think, boy, I just wasted a lot of time. Yeah, sure. No, and what's weird for me, and I imagine maybe similar for you as someone who travels a lot for work, I'm like, I can't, even though it's only been like a month and a half, I can't wrap my head around the fact that I used to leave this so often and so regularly. Yeah, it does feel kind of strange to be in one place for so long. And,

you know, I'll go out on walks and think, my gosh, I've got every tree memorized. I've got, you know, there's nothing new here. And that part of it is different. But I think, you know, look, I've been reading my daily stoic and it reminds me to try to enjoy finding things on my walks that maybe I hadn't seen before. So I keep looking. Well, that's what's going to ask you sort of what has been your stoic practice in this? How have you sort of stayed sane and and and you know, not let the uncertainty and chaos and worry of it gets you. Early on in this, our family had started on vacation. And so there was this feeling of vacation mode.

And then it was sort of like, wow, this vacation mode isn't going to stop because we're going to be sitting here and the kids are going to go to school online and we're just, we have no obligations. But then I said, wait a minute, this is a really good opportunity. So I have been trying to get as much routine in every day as I can, waking up, going for a walk, doing the other things that I like to do to stay fit, having my meals sort of at the same time, going through, you know, reading, planning, doing all the little things that normally you don't have time for or that you complain, you don't have time for. Suddenly, you've got time for all of it, so there really is no excuse.

And so that has kept me really focused. And it does feel a little bit like Groundhog Day sometimes because the scenery never changes. But I really am trying to just stay on some sort of a schedule that makes a difference that matters where I can see some even even minimal results each day. Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's maybe it's that because the world used to be sort of so normal and structured, you know, like you had school or you had, you know, work started at a certain time or, you know, this is, these are the traffic patterns. You like as individuals, we could have more chaos in and be less ordered and organized. And then with the pandemic, things precisely flipped. Now the world is in complete chaos and disarray. And so we're being reminded that it's like,

oh, I have to individually have order and organization or I'm just gonna spin off the planet. I think that's such a great point because you easily could just spin off the planet. You could never get out of bed. You could sit around and watch Netflix till the cows come home, you could just, you know, be reckless in a million ways. And so I agree with you, this is kind of

forced, forced order on people. And it's surreal, it's a little crazed, but I do feel like there is another side. And we'll all see each other on the other side as it were and I just hope that sooner than later. Yeah, or the this folks would say we either will or we won't so there's no, you know, there's no reason to get stressed either way. Right, exactly. How has this changed your sort of news habits? I'd be curious as a journalist do you do you watch the news or do you just go like, I know how the sausage is made so I'm just going to tune this out entirely. A little above. I certainly watch a lot less than I used to. I kind of tune in when I feel as though I might garner something or learn something. But I must tell you as a journalist and I think that I'll preface this by saying that I'm sure

White House correspondence would look upon me as a lowly sports journalist But I have to say that it's been really disappointing to watch some of these journalists at work some of it has been kind of Are you kidding me? You know, just startlingly bad. And at a time when there are so many good questions to be asked, I am baffled by some of the approaches of these journalists. So that part, and you know, it's been interesting too. My husband never watched the news. Ever. He just reads papers. Yeah. But he would sit down

and watch these briefings with me and say, oh my gosh, I had no idea how an epst some of these people are. And that's been really disappointing for me. Not that the answers were always what you want them to be either. Believe me. But it just that part of it from a news standpoint has been a little bit depressing. Yeah. I don't think I was trying to think about this. I'm not sure there's any institution, whether it's the media or politicians or local governments or basically, I was trying to think who have I admired in terms of how they've handled this.

I would say I've sort of admired a lot of ordinary people. I feel like I've admired chunks of the armed forces through this and then obviously doctors and nurses and pretty much everyone else has just completely fallen down on the job. Yeah, it's an interesting look at all of this. And I mean, and yeah, a lot of people all over creation, if you will, have fallen asleep at the wheel and yeah, a lot of people all over creation,

if you will, have fallen asleep at the wheel and it's very sad. I have looked at great admiration as you just mentioned at the doctors and nurses and first responders. And I'll include in that by the way, I'm really grateful to the delivery guys who show up with packages at my door. I look at them and I say,

you know, thanks for saying staying in there and doing this. And when I go to the grocery store or whatever, target Walmart, whatever, I look at these people who are checking us all out and I think they don't have to be doing this. I mean, granted, it's better to have a job than not, but they're really hanging in there and the truck drivers and the farmers

and these people that keep on keeping on for the sake of the rest of us. And that has been inspiring. Yeah, I gave a talk. So I gave a talk in January at a NATO base in Northern Italy that US Fighter Wing stationed at. And then like three days later, coronavirus hit Italy.

And then so they had me do a zoom call last week. And we were talking about this stoic idea of sympathy, a that was sort of all part of this larger system. And it's really easy to take people for granted. And one of the things I'm hoping comes out of this. And obviously, there's economic considerations and political considerations. And a whole bunch of factors to weigh. But I do hope that when we when when we do go back to dealing with let's call less pressing issues that we can have good discussions about minimum wage, about health care, about homelessness, again, understanding these are complex issues, but with a little deeper understanding for the

humanity of the people who are affected by those issues and some wisdom with the fact that like, oh, their fate affects the fate of your family and your livelihood, even if it doesn't seem like, you're like, I don't care what the minimum wage is, but it's like, actually, if the minimum wage isn't good, these people don't show up to work during a pandemic and you starve to death.

Yeah, it's, there really is a, you can kind of take yourself 30,000 feet back or even further from time to time and think, my goodness, look at how we're intertwined. And, you know, maybe I did take some of this for granted before. And I pray I never will again, because I feel so strongly about it now. And I would hate to lose that and have time sort of erode that appreciation. One of the great things about all this time is I've been able to read a lot. I just finished, I finally read John Adams by David McCollock,

and he's such a fine historian, and the stories are amazing. But one of the things that really kind of was an eye-opener about all of it was how much we are like they were in 1776 and beyond. The media and the way that politicians hammered each other relentlessly, the yellow fever. There were descriptions of these times of yellow fever that sounded like it could have been this right now that we're living in. And it's just, it gives you kind of, I don't know if it's a sense of comfort,

like, okay, we've been here before and we can get through this, or a sense of, gosh, are we ever gonna be better than this? Are we ever gonna, so it's, but I think those things, again, I think you would always say this too. If you're gonna yell and scream about it, that's one thing and it really doesn't help you out very much.

If you really care about a problem, you gotta get in there and work on it. If you really, you don't wanna make a change in it. Yelling and screaming is not gonna do anything. I've observed a lot of things here in this time that I would like to maybe have an impact on. So, but I have remained for a markedly calm. And Ryan, I swear that's because of your books.

I read Stillness is the Key again while I was down here. Thank you. And this whole stoic approach, it's funny there's one little hint at the end of John Adams where his daughter-in-law, he suggests to his daughter-in-law that she, John Quincy's wife, that she take on some stoic, to get her through, you know, the life of a first lady. And she says, oh, I'm not, she describes stoicism as something cold and unfeeling that she just wouldn't be capable of. And I thought that's so interesting

because so many people think that's what stoicism is. And as you've described countless times, it is not. No, I love your point. And it ties so great into Marcus Aurelius, right? Because we do think, we can look back in the past and think, like, I don't know, that all the generals in World War II must have been good friends, and they were all in the same team. It's like, no, they were stabbing each other in the back, and a lot of them were jerks, and had enormous egos, and you think the founding fathers were all

friends, and everyone was on the same team, and it's like, no, they hated each other and they lied about each other and they were, and yeah, we think like, oh, the American revolution, like that was what was going on. And it's like, also people's businesses were going through difficulty. And there was freak snowstorms and there was, yeah, yellow fever and you know, Marcus really wrote meditations during the plague. You know, like we've been unfortunately humanity history is a loop, you know, and it's just the same crap happening over and over again. And hopefully, yeah, we are getting a little bit better. But yeah, it does for me studying history helps me turn down the volume a little bit on, on, you know, the media telling you, oh, it's a constitutional crisis.

And, you know, this is not normal. And it's like, actually, it is pretty normal. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I was really astonished by some of the things that these politicians did to each other and said about each other and had published about each other. I mean, flat out, unbelievable lies.

And it was just really, like you said, you think about that time and it's kind of this idyllic, and you know what you see in paintings, and it is eye opening, but it's also like you said, it just kind of makes you feel like, okay, we've been here before, and this too shall pass. Well, I was curious about this idea of stoicism being cold. And one of the reasons I think you're sort of public advocacy about

stoicism is so great is that there is this that that stereotype. And then there's also kind of this stereotype that it's it's masculine or it's broy or it's only for men. I would just be curious like maybe you have thoughts on why that's not correct. It's just such a universal, the notions, the ideas, the philosophy itself applies to any situation, any situation. And I think, you know, it happens to be that most of the Stoics were men. And so I think people just naturally think that these things, the idea is apply to war.

They apply to these sort of masculine endeavors. But the fact, at least for me, is that they can apply to anything. They can apply to the way you raise your children. They can apply to the way you do your job. Keep house any of it. And when I say keep house, I'm just thinking of, okay, you know, I want to make the bed every morning because I want that to be part of my routine or whatever.

And so, yeah, I would strongly encourage any woman out there and I do all the time to take this. In fact, I think one of the most important things that I've taken away from stoicism is this notion of If you're hurt if your feelings get hurt Well, part of that's your decision and I hear I do hear more and more women saying that to their friends to their kids And it's something that I preach all the time to my own children You can choose how to respond to this.

What does this person really mean in your life? Why are you handing over so much of your power to them? Why are you allowing this jerk to control your emotions about yourself? And I think that that is something that is just universal. I think the world is just catching up. I started reading some Winston Churchill biographies and he wanted to write a book about Willa Woman or an article about Willa Woman ever become Prime Minister of England and no publisher would take that idea on because

it was just too fanciful. Now this was not that long ago, right? So I think that people haven't viewed women in a role of strength and sturdiness and in a fill and people who are full of philosophical strength or thought. And I think that that I hope that that's changing. And so yeah, I would so strongly and I encourage to a lot of my female friends and family members to please read the books because I truly do think it applies to anyone. I was just, I was writing about this in the new book because we were, it's a series of biographies of the Stoke figures.

And so it was really important that there be, you know, some female figures, but it was hard because in the ancient world, there really weren't any Kato's daughter, Porsche, is really the only one we could talk about. But it's interesting because Musoneus Rufus' epic teedus' teacher says, like, look, he's like, you don't care what you don't care what gender your dog is or what gender your horse is. Like, any male or female can do the job, right? He's like, there's nothing, sex, there's nothing virtue has nothing to do with one sex organ, right? It's totally,

it's really separate than that. And I was, it struck me that it's like, obviously there have been female stoics throughout history and, and then just plenty of people who didn't know they were being plenty of women who didn't know they were being stoic, but were embodying the ideas. But it's almost like the ultimate stoic, the ultimate testament to their stoicism was that they didn't demand the spotlight, they didn't demand credit, they were just quietly doing what they thought was right.

You know, it's like this sort of unsung, being an unsung hero of history is actually probably more impressive and more stoic than being the emperor. You kind of just described Abigail Adams to a team. Totally. You know, she was that person for John Adams and she never sought any spotlight. She just wanted to be virtuous and the things that she accomplished and the things that she

did and the things that she put aside and for him and the in service of the country, it's really remarkable. And so, yeah, she probably didn't know. She was a stoic, but I think she was one. Well, I mean, can you imagine living with John Adams? He seems like he's such terrible anxiety and ego sometimes. He seemed like he's probably a hypochondriac. He couldn't have been pleasant to live with.

I'm only very rarely, I suppose. Well, I was curious about your job and we can wrap up, but how are you? It struck me that a lot of people are in this sort of career limbo right now. And although your job is at a very high level, you're kind of in one. No one knows whether there'll be a season or what that season will look like. How are you thinking about football? Yeah, at first, you know, we were all planning on being in Tokyo for the Olympics. All right. And you know, so that was the first shoot a drop. And that's been postponed, obviously, for a year.

So a year will go by very quickly. But, and for that, it was, it just made all the sense in the world. It was, of course, the right move to make. The football season, it's really interesting and it really depends on who you talk to. You try to get a sense of, okay, will there be a season? What will it look like? Will there be fans in the stadium? If they're televised, are we all there? What does a

sideline reporter do in that instance? And how do we prep? Because we used to go to practice every Friday. And are we going to be a lot of practice? Or are we going to have to take a test on our way into practice? Are we, you know, are we gonna do all our meetings via Zoom or conference call? How is all of this gonna work? I remain a little more optimistic, honestly. I don't know how they're gonna pull it off,

but I think they're gonna, they're going to try really hard to pull it off. It's gonna require a lot of extra little details and layers of preparation that have never before been required. And I'm talking about primarily this testing notion of probably having to test guys almost every day or every other day or whatever, and before they come into the facility.

So it's really, it's really gonna be interesting. You know, as we're recording this, it's the day of the NFL draft beginning. And so that going on, I think is going to get so many fans watching and wondering and thinking, okay, this is also exciting. And we're seeing these teams get rebuilt and replenished now what?

And everyone's really gonna want an answer, but I don't think we're gonna know it maybe until the end of June. And maybe not even then. Well, it's, we were talking about institutions that haven't stood up to the test well. I really like Tyler Cowan who does marginal revolution.

He was like, the NBA is such a great example of an institution doing well. He's like, I want to put the NBA in charge of like addressing climate change or health care. He's like, they were early to it. They've been transparent about it. They did it before. It was legally mandated. And I saw, yesterday Sean Peyton was like,

we're not doing anything in the off season. He's like, take care of your families and come back in the best shape of your life. And it was like, oh, that like actually weirdly sports, which is not always sort of a moral force for good in the universe, is kind of doing the right thing and showing us what the right thing looks like in some cases.

Yeah. In some cases, I think you're right. And Sean Payton, who actually had the virus, you know, is probably really more sensitive to it than a whole lot of people. And we're just starting to hear about some guys in the NFL, Von Miller for one of Denver, who have contracted the disease. And, but, you know, look, I would also say that I know these players and they're willing to risk being

concussed every other week. You know, these guys, they don't care about, to me, I can understand, I could just, I'm visualizing being in a conversation with a player and having them go, man, let's go. We're healthy, we don't care. But at the same time, there are certainly cooler heads and steady hands that will make the right calls, I think,

because this is just, it's too big and it's too important this whole disease. And we've got to handle it right. I am fascinated by some voices out there who think that there has been overreached, that we have overreacted. I don't, we won't know until the whole story's been told and it's going to take some

time, but this is just a fascinating time and a fascinating push and pull of people wanting to be careful, wanting to be safe, wanting to take care of each other and a fascinating push and pull of people wanting to be careful, wanting to be safe, wanting to take care of each other, and also wanting to get back to normal life as soon as they can. So the dynamic is fascinating to me. Yeah, and nobody said that living through history

was fun. I think that's the other thing. We look back at history and we think, oh, watergate must have been fascinating. Actually, it was terrifying in some respects, right? Or the Great Depression wasn't just those black and white photos you saw. Like, people didn't know what was coming next. And we're in a moment that probably surpasses both of those things.

And, you know, you could insert any international example as well. Like, this is history. And history is filled by people making good decisions and bad decisions and conflicting interests and good leaders and unfortunately lots of bad leaders and we're just sort of seeing that all play out I think. Just like as you said, history is a loop. It's so remarkable to me that we are living in this time. My mom lived through depression. She was there for post-World War II.

She talks about some of the things that she went through and I sit there and go, wow. So we keep telling our kids who are 14 and 11. You guys might wanna take some notes and keep a diary during all of this because your kids and your grandchildren will be asking you about this. Yeah, no, that's, that's, and that was going to be my last question.

How have you talked to your kid, like, that's something my wife and I sort of like, obviously we want to talk about it, but then we realize every time we were talking about it, we can see stress manifests itself in our kid and suddenly bad behavior happen, you know, or, like, acting out happened because he doesn't know what's happening. He just knows like this is not normal. How have you sort of, as you've tried to keep an even keel within also deal with what you've got to deal with, how do you sort of both prevent that from trickling down, but also talk to your kids and tell them what's happening?

Well, I have, you've got little ones, and mine are not so little anymore, and certainly my 14-year-old is well aware of the world out there, and he's very opinionated about it, and interested in it, and so he's fine with all this. They've actually both been really great,

and have applied themselves to the online courses that they have to take and all that kind of stuff. I think that we have been just very plain spoken about it and just said, here's where we are, we don't know where it's going to end, but we're in a better situation than a lot of people and don't forget that, we're very fortunate and so we're going to give back in other ways and we're going to do our part other ways. And we're going to do our part. And that's what we're going to do. And we're going to just keep calm and carry on, if you will. And they seem to be adapting really, really well to that. I think we are in a good place in terms

of their ages. It's got to be a lot more difficult with young ones like yours. It's got to be a lot more difficult with young ones like yours. Yeah, but yeah, I think in a weird way, the upside is also it's an easy and immediate sort of refreshing sort of connection to the present. It's like you can watch the worst news story and then they want to go in the pool or they want to play trains. Or, you know, and so I think that's the other. The kids are also a responsibility, a kids are a responsibility, but they are also, you know, a sort of a wonderful sort of pass to another universe. Oh, no question.

And it's such a great stage when they want to play trains, believe me. Well, it's just, it's such a great stage. You have a lot to think about and concern yourself with, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it. I'm not sure thank you so much. It's my pleasure always. If you like the podcast that we do here and you want to get it via email every morning, you can sign up at dailystoke.com slash email. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery

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