The Daily Stoic - Austin Kleon On Maintaining Healthy Habits, Growing As Parents, And Interrogating The Stoic Virtues

Episode Date: July 22, 2023

Ryan speaks with his longtime friend fellow father Austin Kleon during a stop along his book tour for The Daily Dad: 366 Meditations on Parenting, Love, and Raising Great Kids. They discuss the life habits that they maintain in order to help fuel their creative success, why the most effective form of parenting is indirect, what parenting skills they are working on right now, how adopting a daily journaling habit vastly improved their lives, and more.Austin Kleon is a writer, author, artist, speaker, and blogger whose work focuses on creativity in the modern world. Although he is most known for his five New York Times bestselling books Steal Like An Artist:10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative, Show Your Work!, Keep Going, Steal Like An Artist Journal, and Newspaper Blackout, Austin has spoken for organizations such as Pixar, Google, SXSW, TEDx, and The Economist. He lives in Austin, Texas with his wife and sons. You can follow his work at austinkleon.com, Instagram @austinkleon, and Twitter @austinkleon.You can listen to a few of Austin’s other appearances on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel:Ryan Holiday & Austin Kleon Discuss Stoicism, Creativity, Journaling & MoreRyan Holiday and Austin Kleon On How To Increase Creativity With Stoicism✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time

to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. One of my favorite people in the whole world is today's guest, Austin Cleon. I loved his books keep going. I loved show your work. I loved steel like an artist. There's some of the most popular books we sell at the painted porch here in Master of Texas. And I was actually just writing about Austin the other day, giving me this really important advice when I was moving to Austin, thinking about having kids, he said,

work, family, scene, pick two. And I think about that all the time. I think about it when I think about saying yes to something, when I'm leaning towards saying no to something. What's important? What do I prioritize? If you try to have it all, you end up losing some of the most important things in the world to you,

often for things that are not that important to you. So I brought you a couple weeks ago, I brought you my conversation at Barnes & Noble with the one and only Casey Neistat. I also did one here in Austin at the Barnes & Noble at the Arbor Reedum, which I'd actually never been to. It's a cool bookstore.

That's actually a pretty cool Barnes & Noble. The staff was great, signed a bunch of books while I was there. Certainly not anywhere close to my worst book signing. My worst was that a Barnes and Noble in Hawaii, I think on Maui and all of one person came up. Quite a few more people at this one in Austin, which was really cool, thanks to everyone who came out. Thanks to Austin for having this great conversation

with me about work, about creativity, about managing all the impositions on our time, how to raise good people in a crazy messed up world. Austin's been on the podcast a couple of times, I'll link to those episodes. He has just shaped me in many, many ways, great friend, great person, great writer. You can follow him at Austin Cleon.

You can go to his website, austincleon.com, where he has a fantastic newsletter, one of the few that I get and love. And check out still, I can't just show you where we keep going. His poetry book, newspaper, blackout is also really cool. And there's a reason his books are very, very popular. There's a reason I recommend them all the time. And there's a reason that when I was choosing who to do that conversation with the first person I thought of, the first person I asked was Austin Clean, and I was very grateful he said, yes, so enjoy this conversation and thanks again, Austin. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wondery's podcast Business Wars.

And in our new season, two of the world's leading hotel brands, Hilton and Marriott, stare down family drama and financial disasters. Listen to Business Wars on Amazon Music so we can talk about parenting. So I was actually thinking about you this morning flying back here and I feel like I'm in a bit of a deep rut. Not that I haven't found any good books recently, but I find that my ability to read and concentrate on books is suffering. Do you ever got to something like that? I mean, yeah, especially after you read something really good. Yeah, like that's really dangerous. So when you get something good,

then it's like the reentry problem. Like Walker Percy is like, Walker Percy and Austin, the cosmos has this theory of reentry where it's like we need to have a train, the more transcendent an experience, like the harder it is to come down from. Yeah, do you find like when you write about

going back to regular life as far? Yeah. We've got vacation reentry, regular life as as I have. But this is more like like I would I would read a couple pages and then I pick up my phone and use up but like I ability to read is normally I ability to sort of is normally predicated on the power to push through that and do uninterrupted, concentrated periods of focusing on something that is not screened.

Do you think it's because you're in like marketing book release mode? I do. I do tend to find that, yeah, weeding dips are correlated with periods of burnout or eventually, because you have to be able to focus on what you're doing. But also, I find weeding is like, it's a habit. So it's like walking, running, or working out. We're gonna do a lot. It's easy to keep doing it.

And then when you've been doing it intermittently, then it's easy to come up with excuses for not doing. I agree. For me, I have genres that I go back to. So like junk, like my favorite genre is like rock and roll, like oral history books. So I'll like just find like a music oral history that I've never read. And then I'll reread stuff. I do that too. Yeah. So it's like if you're struggling instead of going, I hope this next book does it for me this yaks book does it for me

Go back to something that you know does do it for you. Yep Color old girlfriend No, but like Charles Portis is somebody who like every time I read a Charles Gordes book Like I just fall into it and I end up reading at least one and a half book. Like I'll read the one I'm reading and then I'll read at least half of the next one

because there's only five. If I go back, then you'll take that momentum and channel towards things, you can either read your reader, whatever. Yeah, and I'll just be like, I just, every night just take a chance on something that's like in my Like all my kindle or something is that when you read you tend to read at night? Well, I read fiction at night. That's before that. Yeah. I can't read nonfiction because my brain starts going

I read nonfiction like in the afternoon like after I pick the kids up and I get them on the screen. So they're snacks. And the pup is going out. And this is, and it's almost pool season. And the great luxurious, decadent thing about my life now is like, I'll just lay in the pool and read for two hours and call it work. Do you get centered?

Yeah. Like, I know, I'll like put up the umbrella and I'll even flow on a raft or I'll just stand by the side of the pool with the book. Just like read. And it's kind of a screen free environment also, right? So it's on the pool. So you can't really pick up your phone.

I can change music on my watch or I can text me So like if there's a kid emergency. I'm sure she loves that. Yeah. Hey honey You bring out like no, but like you know if there's any like emergency or a little bit of a shout-out to it's not like I'm not like no like to me it's like I'm very like one of the things I'm really into, I used to be a very unfussy kind of like, I can read anywhere, I can work anywhere, I can do whatever. But like now that I have, now that this is my life, like I've been really interested in like, what are things I can do? Because I do this all the time and it's like work for me.

What can I do like make this lush? Like what can I do to like make this like real sensually wonderful? So like I spent more money on an Apple monitor recently than like I'd probably have for like, it was like I, I just somewhat ungodly amount. The new Mac like, they're like $1,500 or something which to me is just like, I'm gonna pay $1,500 for everything.

But these are so awesome. Like every time I say to read now, because it's my son, I don't know, and he's 10, he's like, you can't see the pixels. You know, and so it's like, oh, you know, it's like all impressed. And it makes it like, so I'm like kind of interested right now in like silly rituals. And then like, I've I'm like kind of interested right now in like silly rituals and then like

I've always been like someone who I don't have silly rituals when I sit down to write But I always thought it'd be fun to have like a dumb robe or something that you put on Or like can you tell me the road? No, what I do is silly Sometimes I'll smoke I have these cigarette pencils that are like, they're pencils, but they look like cigarettes. And I'll sit there at my desk, like an old grizzled. That's like the dumbest thing I do in the studio. That's one of my questions, actually.

What's the dumbest thing you do in the studio? I love asking people that. Like, what's the silliest thing you do when you're working? Um, when I'm writing, well, I listen to the same song on repeat. Yeah. Wait, it's not, when I say that people go, oh, what is the song? It's not that. It's always a song of the moments.

Um, do you write down which song you listen to with different books? No, it's usually what I'll do is I'll look, you know, in like the Spotify, um, Yep. Back-up comes. I'll be like, oh, I don't give this one. It gives me what each of the, like, the normal person, you know, that list of songs there, like,

oh, you've probably listened to this song, 20 times, this song, 15 times. For me, it was like 700, this is the song, you know. Yeah. Like, I forget what you're paying to us, but they sent me a note that I was like in the point, oh, oh, I'm just listening to that band. But I tend to listen to songs on repeat, over and over and over again. And I can, if it's somewhat serendipitous, like how I find those songs, but

like my productivity can rise and lower depending on how good the songs have been recently. Yeah I wrote a book proposal to pet shop boys, West End girls with that method. Yeah, I threw it out so I don't know like if it works for me. Maybe that's not the right one. It was fun to listen to it. I mean it was a good sound track. I... You mentioned Walker Percy. Show me foot in Walker Percy's best friend. You would famously write in the bathroom or whatever. And I find actually though, and I talk a little bit about this in the discipline book, I do think,

like as a writer you can dress how you want, you're off school. Look how you want to. I do think there's actually something about getting dressed, putting on clothes, shaving, etc. Like I do think there's actually something about getting dressed, getting put on clothes, shaving, etc. Like I do feel like there's the fresher you set yourself up to be, the fresher you're up to. Like there's something to me about just fuffling around the house in your pajamas that might seem fun, but it's actually maybe like not conducive. Like I'm much more interested in the Robert Peril like dresses in a three piece suit that's in the office. Yeah.

Not quite there, but like I do think like that seems like a silly ritual, but it also makes sense to me. Yeah. The idea of like how you look is a reflection of how the seriousness would put your taking the thing. I also, I'm really, I guess one of the points I was trying to make when I was talking about making my process like lush is I'm very interested in sensory things right now and to me close to like a sensory thing, it's like the feel of the clothing that you're wearing.

And so I feel like when you're wearing a suit, it's really a feel thing. It's like a touch thing. And I think that like when I'm interested in like sensory cues you can give yourself to like when it's time to work, right? I have a good one. Did I tell you this? You have been to my absence, but I have Joan Didin's writing chair. You told me that. And it's like this. It's not comfortable. It's really comfortable. But there is something about Joan D in front of Trump. It's all basically furniture from a little old lady of the,

like trendy but a little lady. But like she's probably had it forever. Yes. I mean, she's like the age of my grandmother. So it's like whatever your grandmother's stuff would be. If your grandmother was like the coolest person in the world. But there is, I have found, there's something about sitting in that.

And I have little things like that. Like I have a little pen knife that is from Rome like the second or third century. Like it looks like a knife that like a senator would carry, right? I just got this new one. It's like a, it's a hand. It's like a, it's a rock and you can see all the chipping on it, but it's like a primitive stone tool from like 10,000 years ago. I like to have little momentos or haze and I just know that I can touch them or move them around. They're obviously like little luxuries or their antiques or whatever.

I kind of like searching for them is almost more fun than having them. But there is something about like a vibe or an environment. And I think having the chair or whatever, I have little pictures and prins of math. But there's something about like kind of setting the mood of your creative space, yes, I think it matters. And I think that's really like, I mean, I think that really ties into your work. I mean, so much of your work is about going to the past, bringing the past to the present, and finding lessons for the contemporary now. And so it makes sense to me that you have like old artifacts around. Then the other one that I got recently,

as a sort of reminder about saying no, as I had this little, it's like a little, probably no bigger than this no card. Yeah. And it's an inter-office memo from the Truman administration. And which again, the idea you give us by papers from Truman's White House, like you think it was like a few hundred dollars. It wasn't like, right, it was this priceless antique

that it was sold at Southern Beats, like I... But anyways, it's a memo from a secretary and it says, you know, due to all of the constraints on the president's time, should I tell them that due to so many similar inquiries, the president must decline. And then, the president must decline is underlined, and it says in this sort of scroll handwriting,

it says, the proper response is underlined, HST. So it was like Truman writing a note to a secretary, like you have to step, like, she passed him like, you know, an interoperate memory, you have to start saying no, and he's like, yeah, she have to start saying no. And I had that on my wall next to the two pictures of my kids, and the idea being, like, I'm having to say no,

not just because there's too many requests, but you're saying no in order to say yes to other things. So again, I think obviously I could just write the word N-O or I could just remember this, but there is something about having that embodied from a person that's much more busy and important but also that I admire on the wall. And there's something about that that's like, I look at that and go,

I'm just gonna ignore this thing. Yeah, I'm just gonna say, I'm gonna pass this to someone to say now. Well, I'm like, I'm obsessed with that word in body right now because I'm actually really into embodied cognition right now, this idea that we think with our bodies that are, it's literally our, and I think that's something that you really go about writing about is how much an active life, whether it's walking or running,

or being active with your body, really. And the body, if you score, I haven't read that. I just read a book called, I think the best selling, it was one of the top 20, best selling books of the year last year. And it's like 30 years old. It's basically a tenel.

It's not be selling the way that it is but it is a reminder of the power of a really good title. And then when you tap into a concept that is true to people. And what would you say is the concept of your mind? The concept is basically that your body is operating with an understanding or cognition of the things that it's been through, whether those are traumas or that experiences or pain or memories that you might not be aware

of at a conscious level or operating by and that your body is processing that admittedly. Yeah, I did it. Like, yeah, we're a product of what we've been through. So we think we're making, you know, like I find for instance, like whenever I get really upset or triggered about something, like that thing is never what's actually going on. It's just that thing needs some other thing to me. And either I have a conscious understanding of what that thing is, and I go, oh, this is that thing's why I'm acting that way. Or it's actually a really helpful fit of self feedback because you're like, oh, why this person gave me, it spoke to me in this way and that hit me in some soft or, you know, strange place.

And so now I need to figure out what that thing is because whether they should have acted that way or not, your reaction was disproportionate or not something fully controlled, totally aware of what's happening. So anyways, it's very good, but I don't have the guys' names unpronounceable. Yeah, the book I read is called The One I Read recently is The Extended Mind. And that's Annie Murphy Paul's book. And her thing is that we think with our body,

she kind of like almost, I see this concentric circle. She's like, we think with our, there's inside our body and then, oh my God, why am I blanking? Because it's like, this is usually when I like zone out much beauty. And the dig at that like at night as anyone else like I'm in a 7 years. I don't know many people that do their best in eights.

Yeah right. But this idea, oh I know it was it was thinking with thinking with like her point is that a lot of our thinking comes from internal stuff with our body and then our bodies interactions with our environment and like the other people around us. And so there are all these different, oh I don't know what it was, it's the body and it's space and then it's other people. Those are kind of her concentric circles. And so if you're no cards, for example, that's like a space thing. Yeah, so when you write things down on no cards and have them in a place, that's you're using space and materials

to externalize. It's like a second brain, it's like a second brain, right? And when we text each other, that's an interaction where we're thinking together. You know, that's sure we're thinking with, I'm thinking of your brain, if you can find brain. And I just really enjoyed, but the thing I really liked about what she talks about with the body, and what I think is really true is a creative person, the body knows what to do before you conscious mind us, and that's what I'm really, really interested in. Can you write the inner game of tennis?

No, who wrote that in the first place? It's a, they probably haven't here. It's some greatest favorite book, but it's in. Okay, this idea that, for instance, a tennis player, they're sort of the conscious understanding of what you can do. Yeah. And then there's when your sort of training takes over.

Yeah. And that like almost all great performances operating at that second level, rather the thingy mind and then the thinking passing slows on a similar level. But that's more about cognition as opposed to performance, I guess. Yeah, it's like playing the piano. You hear something and it grabs you on some sort of weird level. And then you have to try to learn the piece. And that like a different part of the brain where you like have to be real meticulous and like learn it and then you let that sink into the back of your mind and then when you sit down to the recital it's like it just happens.

Yeah and anyway if you're trained as an athlete you know you would drill and you drill until it's automatic when it's game time. Do you find that your best writing is in that phase or is it on the, I have to do something for it? Well, I think writing is interesting because it's not in the moment. It's not like, it doesn't have to be like, immediate, like you can go back and fix it. You know what I mean?

Like what they're drawing, it's a little bit more like, when I'm making like an eight drawing or something, that's a little bit more like when I'm making like an eight drawing or something that's a little bit more like there's a little bit higher stakes because if I mess this up like yeah I can kind of go back but not as much so um you know that that almost requires a certain lot like I think early on you're starting to do something you you are not good at being bad at the thing. Yeah. And so one of the things that's a rire, I think you learn it being comfortable

just sort of doing the thing, just sort of seeing where it goes, which I think is the point between sort of consciously trying to hit the ball very hard because it's in tennis or golf. And then just hitting the ball as one goes to and actually understanding that if you have trained sufficiently, if you gathered

the material, it'll happen. I think one of the things I tend to find like when I'm stuck, like if I'm riding, and I get stuck, like I'm supposed to ride today, I don't have anything. Almost invariably, like if I just go lead stuff, like I take that as a sign that I just need to go do more research.

And if I do more research, when I have, when even though I might not fully think I know what I want to say, when I have gathered up enough like raw materials or fuel, I just sort of know. Like, yeah, it should come naturally to the most parts. I, yeah, I agree. Like, I've, my new attitude towards block or like not which really just means you don't have anything to say. Oh yeah my approach to that

honestly is the same. Go get something to say. They go for a walk or read. Readings great. The thing I'm this is gonna sound. It's gonna sound really good it's to go but I like to read myself like out-hole diaries off because I have all these what something I do which is in line with the book is I love to read what I wrote on this day five years ago. Yeah so I'll grab a diary and I'll read like a pay-in. They're organized by dates or? Yeah, they're up on my shelf like ordered by date.

And so I just, I can go right to the spot. You know, I've written the dates on the spot. I can go there and I read and now I like to skip from the next year and see what I read on that day. And the spook, your brain automatically makes connections between the things, but spookily it's often the same problem. Like there's some weird, like it's, and that makes sense. I got this from reading foro because I started reading foro's diary this way, which is why I like that introduction of the daily dad so much when you talked about the value of like reading a book every day

And instead of just like devouring it once because what I decided to do was throw diary because it's so thick This was an annotated version But I decided to read everything you wrote on the day that on the calendar day that I was reading sure And so I had these tabs in the diary So I just looked to whatever date if if there was something for... You made your own, like, KGD day of exactly. That would actually be a great book too. Oh yeah, I think this row.

Yeah. And the University of Chicago press did that. Oh, he did. There's like a daily throw, yeah. And it's, but it's not as diary, it's from like, it's from everything. So it's from the diary, but it's also from like,

all the necessary, some letters and everything. It's pretty good. Have's from the diary, but it's also from like all the essays and letters and everything. It's pretty good. Have you read that calendar with them? Well, I was going to ask you, yeah, that's some post-boys. I did that. I was going to ask you actually when you got interested in this idea of the daily devotional type thing. Because I have a memory from childhood.

So the day is so came because my agent suggested that he had published a book called The Daily Drucker, Coles Peter Drucker, it's like sort of theories of man down. And the mission was really good. Which I had read. And I thought it was interesting because like someone like Peter Drucker, you take some of these things as you go like, well, where should I start? I think that's often a time, where do you start? If you're someone's like, where should I start with

throughout, where should I start with throughout with Greene or where should I start with. So, where do you start? And there's something, spending a year with them as a catalog, it's like, where should I start with this band? Is it, did they perfectly encapsulate everything that's great about them on a singular album? do you pull up like the essential Bruce Bruce or whatever and is a playlist a better way to sample a thing and I think the page

today format is really good for that and then so I hadn't actually read that many books in that genre I've grabbed a couple and there's a bunch of things I didn't like about them yeah a lot of them like for instance there's a bunch of things I didn't like about them. Yeah a lot of them like for instance There's a 366 Zen one that I like but doesn't have dates. It's just 360 something even though it's totally arbitrary about picking the date. I think you think it's important Yeah, you know there some are very kind of prompt driven Which I didn't I didn't tend to like it's about to be like a little artificial You know some didn't I don't know there's, but I found it to be like a little artificial.

You know, some didn't, I don't know. There's a, I've read most of them. I think it's hard, you know, it's totally it's your favorite. It's also is probably the one that I read the most and most consistently. Although I've come to learn some things about it like, I'll fall in love with some of the quotes. I'm like, where's that from? And then it's like, hope he made this quote out basically. Like, he's very, he plays fast and loose with the translations, let's say, which whatever work for him, you know, it's like a little more religious

than I would like it to be. Like it's very, very religious. But it's a collection of thoughts from one of the smartest people that I've ever lived, which is, and it's rare, usually those page day things are assembled afterwards by like a mentor, of, you know, the estate or something. And so I like that he did that.

Yeah, actually, but it's got to happen, but, I don't know what to say. So I like that he did that. He actually played it together, but it's great. What's the thing? What's the thing? What's the thing? What's the thing? What's the thing? When we think of sports stories, we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory. But the new podcast Sports Explains the World brings you some of the wildest and most surprising

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So when I was growing up, I grew up with, you know, very religious parents, and they still are. And my dad would sit at the table. My dad, I never saw my dad read that much, but one thing I would see my dad do is, our church had these little, there were almost booklets. There were like, there were like, zines or something. They were like, well, booklets.

And I think they might have been called our daily bread or something like that, to make someone wear those. But they would have the day, they would be by date. And there would be like day they would be by date and and there would be like a there would be an entry for you know read this scripture and then this thought and I think it's interesting how I was reading a lot of the daily dad in the past couple of days and one of the things I was thinking about is how ambient parenting is and what I mean by that is like how many of the things that translate and you get into this in a lot of entries.

A lot of things like it transmitted are... I'd like... They're like from... they're not direct. Like direct is not the way that I don't find that direct transmission works real well with kids. I think kids really pick up on the ambient stuff so much. And everything you're trying to throw it under, it kind of deflects or bounces off, but the things you have around, I'm very interested in like the ambient. I think that's kind of the whole of the house. The page of the thing is that you're just dipping in and out of it and you're getting the

you're getting, if you spend enough time with it, you sort of, if you absorb it through osmosis or whatever and it becomes part of your overall understanding where if you read it and if you read the whole thing from start to finish maybe you walk away three or four things. Yeah. By reading it in smaller pieces over a long period of time, multiple times over a long period of time, you end up taking in more of it. And that's obviously been the experience with what they was doing. You know, it's like eight years now. So, so there's some people who have been reading it every day for years. And it feels weird to me because I mean who I was when I wrote it a year ago that feels very far away and yet people are reading those pages for the

first time. How do you not repeat yourself or do you just go ahead? Oh continuing to write? Yeah. Oh, in the email? Yeah. Well, yeah, that's a good question. I mean obviously continuing to write has been its own thing and being forced to revisit the same themes. It would be interesting. I wonder if at some point maybe I could categorize all of them, but like to look at the use of certain quotes. Like how has, have I interpreted them different ways in different days?

Has my understanding of it changed over time? I don't know exactly, but I usually go come up with a title or some way into a thing. It's weird to say that it writes itself, but it just writes itself. You usually have a sentence or a thought or a quote I want to use, and then the rest of it comes together. It's a very big batch.

We read for it. I just have one document. It's called Unsent. I was too. So I've got Unsent for Daily Stoke. It's Unsent for Daily Dad. Okay, that's where I'm working on them always. So I'll hear a lyric in a song or read an article

and I'll paste that in there. Or what I go back to when I read after books I read, I put all this stuff there. And then I usually try to write one or two a day. Sometimes more if I feel like I'm gonna be awake for a while, but I try to make a contribution to the pile every day. Yeah. And then I edit them.

Yeah, so I write them and then I tag Kristen, who is the manager he had to introduce, so I tag her. And she takes it as a pass on it, comes back to the audio and you can listen to it as a podcast every day, so I see that I read it out loud and I usually edit it again there. And then once there is edited audio and edited text, that gets put into a calendar which I don't, at this point, I don't select. Like I don't decide what runs on each day. So some of the people email like, how do you know? Okay. What was today's? Because I know you. But I, so it's like, I'm just always

making them and then it sort of goes out, but I touched them, I hand, I touched them in the written and then I touched them two other times usually. And then it sort of goes out, but I touched them, I hand, I touched them in the written and then I touched them two other times usually and then it kind of is just this stream of stuff and that way there's too much to think about like is today's too similar, yesterday is a more than this one, so they're kind of working out the cadence of all of it, but I'm just always writing them. And to me the value is in writing, like I get something out of writing on this day. It's a lot of writing. I mean, that could be its own.

It's about a book a year, a three book a year. Yeah. You know, there about, let's say, 250 to 300 words. And then you're doing five days a week. Then the day is still, it was a seven days week. So yeah, it adds up. It's a lot of work. But the daily practice of it is really great

it's like a sort of a forced journaling like output I cannot recommend like he last me a lot like about who last me a lot about like how to get started and everything and I'm always just like have some repeatable thing that you have to put out at a certain frequency. Like I just feel like... When you make a commitment to, there's a forcing function there that gets over your preciousness.

And yeah, the hardest part about getting into anything is reps, right? And like books, especially the problem with books is like, you might only do a handful of them in your entire life. So if that is your you know you might only do a handful of them in your entire life so if that is your reps you know you're not you're not gonna get very many of them so you have to have some other way that you're getting the reps for us at comedians it's it's you do you were you an athlete in high school my parents did make me do a sport I did track across countries, but not super ballroom, apparently.

Are you a sports fan? Yeah. Because I'm always curious about, because sports teams seem to really, really like, connect with your stuff. Is that a marketing thing on your part, or was that something where like one team was, I mean, I definitely was how that happened.

I wasn't like, you know who these philosophy books would be perfect for. No, I mean, I definitely was how it like that happened. I wasn't like, you know, who these philosophy books would be perfect for. No, I mean, so like that, but that was not at all expected. Yeah. And certainly the publisher didn't expect it. I didn't expect it. But if I, when the octopus away came out, I got a couple of emails like in the first few months that had signatures for there, someone from the Rockies, there's someone from the Patriots, someone from another team and I was like, oh that's weird. And maybe I only noticed the pattern because the organizations had email signatures and the other people I didn't recognize. But so I recognize that pattern pretty quickly and I think from a marketing standpoint, they've published a cave away with lots of books

to those groups. But I spoke at the University of Tennessee today. I spoke to the athletics department, like all the different coaches and administrators and athletic directors and whatever. And I always talk what's cool about sports than other like CEOs don't tend to call each other and recommend books. But there's something about sports

where there's like kind of a fellowship in a community and it's very interesting. Maybe because all the people hired each other at one point is it's revolving door, but there seems to be a lot of like recommending of self-development stuff that is really interesting. And so that's been just like a cool community to fall into the military communities, but a similar one. Yeah, politics has been one kind of,

you've actually now like, look like the entertainment business. This industry is like, if something works, it tends to make its way through, which takes time. It takes, like, it takes a lot of time. I think there's something in it in Stoicism, in particular, too, that they really speak to that kind of that scene, too. Well, there is this thing. Cicero has a series of fake dialogues

with that, but it's called the Scipionic Circle. And these people would meet in the house of this guy, the ScipioEO and they would talk to us and it's kind of one of the first like little like groups like book clubbies sort of philosophy circles that we have. They all go on to be sort of powerful and important people but they're like kind of sharing book recommendations. I think it's good to have a scene like that that where where stuff is being surfaced to you and talk to you.

And I think the problem is that some domains don't really have, like, there's one of the reasons I wanted to do daily dad is like, you get surfaced stuff that makes you better at your work all the time. But the parenting stuff seems to be this, like, we these books, we're about to have kids and then just have a wimpy for me. Yeah. That seemed like the wrong way to do it. Yeah. So hopefully this has that same pattern. I have a question for you about parenting. Okay. Do you worry about overplaying the agency of parents? What do you mean, because one of the things when I was reading the Daily Dad was I was like,

I love all this stuff. I think it's all super important. But at the end of the day, something is my kids get, oh, this might be something you feel when your kids get older, I feel very much at the mercy of their environment. It becomes less and less about me and it becomes more and more about the kind of ambience like our street art. It goes beyond our house to church. It's our street.

It's the school. It's the city. It's the state. It's the country. It's the world. Like my, one of the things I hate about being a parent is I felt very, and this was probably delusional, I felt very protected from the environment. I felt very much like, really on? Yeah, I felt a real agency, free agent kind of thing where it's like, well, nothing really matters,

because I can bounce out, I can be flexible, I can like, you know, I can take a whole of my ground and stay there. You know what I mean to? Like the minute I had kids, I felt so vulnerable to the world and it kind of awakened me just how connected I was to everything. Well, that's something I was going to ask you, it was awesome as a small, deep going, which I very much recommend.

And, you know, how does one keep going when you awaken each day to a fresh set of four? Yeah. No, I think there is so much that's fundamentally outside of your control. And you are at the mercy of, I mean, do you have some control over what's we live on? Yeah. I think we, stoicism is is to me, the paradox of stoicism is the idea that we don't have agency over a vast majority of what's ahead. We have agency of how we respond to the tricks we make in the face of those things. So I think there's a tension there. But I feel like everyone is struggling with that idea of like, well, I don't like all these things that are happening.

I'm not sure if you could find an era though where, like, I just read David McCullough's book on John Adams. I don't think John Adams is like, what a wonderful place in time to raise children, right? Well, I don't know if there's any period where parents where people have ever felt that, and that's kind of this myth or this illusion that we're chasing but

The idea of just sort of soldiering through and then the paradox of like you look back and you go, oh, it was so wonderful back then Just mostly nonsense. Yeah, there's a quote I have in the book from Caitlin Flanagan, and she's talking about the dream time of early childhood. She takes them to the ice cream truck, and she gets them a sponge bob ice cream. And they were just blown away that such trucky shifts. And then you get like, you know, so there is something also though about having kids where like, who

knows what, I don't know what year that was happening, but I'm sure actually if we pulled up like a series in New York Times front pages from that period, the world was horrible. And it's always going to be that way. And then what I think think so you are very vulnerable But it also does actually give you the thing to retreat into which is this sort of Sure a bit of chaos and innocence and Yeah, that was I just really like having a family because I feel like it's a little gang I belong to that like I just really enjoy the just

I belong to that. Like I just really enjoy the just weirdo. My favorite, like one of my favorite parenting books, if people ask me like a list of my favorite parenting books, like one of the books would be Toe the Anson's Moomin comics. Do you know the Moomin's? They're like this little like cartoon character family. And I read those books when I think my youngest

was like three, two or three. And I read these books and I was like, this is where I want to live. Like this is what I want. This is what I want my house to look like. Like there's movement pop-up, there's movement mama, and there's, you know. So like I like the game. And I like the, we even have gang like Lindo. Like we have Alexa kind of in our house.

I like, I'm always, I love that families, do you ever think about like in your family or like, we have Alexa coming in. I like, I always, I love that families, do you ever think about like, in your family or like, where you grew up, like, did you have weird words that no one else would understand or like, weird phrases and stuff like that? Like, we have, we have some in our house that I just love and I'm like, this is it. This is like the best thing to get, you know?

This is good, this is good. This is good, this is good. No one has this good to do, right? It's not, it's not. No one has this good to do, right? It's not. No, that's not good. It has it better than us. Yeah, I love that part of the book.

All right, we had some questions on what kind of sign. Okay, how can parents allow their children to have their own opinions, even if they don't agree with it? What choice do you have? Oh, yes. Well, this is something I was just talking I was just talking to someone I know whose son is engaged to be married, it's very young. And a lot of people they know have very strong opinions

about this and they, I just said, I don't know if you've got a lot. And thanks know have very strong opinions about this and they just said, I just love you. And he just said, he's happy, we're happy. And I just thought of that such that like, it's when you have opinions that you get yourself in trouble. And I think of so much of the conflict between parents and kids are rooted in the parents having opinions about things that not only don't really matter at all, but in the scope of their own lives as time passes, you will wonder

why you argued about these things to begin with. It's so easy to extract away, right? Well, if I let them die their hair this color, then they'll think that they can do you know like so so much What what what would actually if if if? Look that one in isolation into without much Thought as to what other people would think or what other people are doing you would be like yeah This doesn't matter at all. That's what floats your vote go for it But we don't look at things that way and so we we have opinions. One of the favorite things from our screen is, things are not asking

to be judged by you. And when you realize that, like, the people judge, the kids' opinions, their lives are their lives. But the fewer opinions you have about things, not only is that just better for overall peace, but I think then when you, when there are some things that you do need to have an opinion about, right, right, and that opinion will carry more weight if you haven't been arguing over the way to sit at the dinner table for right. Like, so I have this thing with my kids where I do mind games where I'm like what if they're right? Like I almost take the, my goal at this point in my life, I'm turning 40, we're, we

have the same birthday. Did you guys know that? We do? Yeah, I don't choose. I've got Gen 16. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we'll lose that. Yeah, yeah.

Um, and so my thing now that I'm trying to like ease into is what I call a curious elder. Um, and that is someone who kind of assumes the kids are all right, like that that's just an ethos, that you just kind of assume that your children are all right and they know what they're talking about. And even if it's true that they, even if they don't, you, that, that kick starts a curiosity. And so I'll give you a real concrete example.

Every parent I know is disgusted by their children watching a YouTube video of another person playing a video game. Yes. So they wanted it applicable. Yeah, but it did, but wait. So I had a day where I was like, I'm just going to make myself sit here and watch one of these videos with him.

And I think it was like a Minecraft Pat video or something, you know, where they blow up the whole world with TNT or something. I don't know. I was watching it and I was like, this is so weird. We're like in front of the screen. Now, watching these other people play a game. And we're not playing it, but they're playing it. And I suddenly was like, oh my god, this is like me and my uncles sitting around watching football that Sunday. We're watching like other people do something, differences that when we get done watching the video,

my kids know how to do something at their game, whereas like you watch football, you're up and being able to go with my current touchdown. So then I had this other, so like that was like a light ball. Then I had this other moment where I was like a light bulb. Then I had this other moment where I was like, wait, if people watch someone play a game, I'll get someone to watch someone make art.

So I got all these ideas for like, I'm like, I'm busy. And that was purely just because that one day, I was like, I'm gonna sit down with my kids and this statement would pulses me. I'm going to pay attention to it. I just wrote an entry about this for the emails I was to like, for the book, but I was thinking about,

if you're on a date, personally, tell me about the most famous shit and you were pretty much interested. You think about what you put up with that work? When you think about total strangers, think about your neighbor comes, they tell you about the span of vacation, you're like, how do I even get into this? You think about how strangers to my neighbor comes to tell you about the span of vacation and you're like, how do I even get into this kind of situation?

You think about how polite you are to people about shit that is totally what you feel like is a waste of time. And then you're thinking like a kid's out of it. Yeah, really? No, but then you're thinking like a kid, what do you tell you about the thing that I most excite about your entire world? You're like, you would never go to a person, but you'll do the equivalent of that. So devastatingly terrible. And you actually don't be wonderful if you could fame you know excitement and interest in such a convincing way

but let's just let's let's let's let's have our even lower what if you just don't express your distinct right I mean you just you just say I don't have to have an opinion about this this is what we're watching this is what we're doing and what a what a much more wonderful and and what a much more wonderful and amicable life you will have if you could finish to pull that off. I mean, one of the, my friend, Erica Hall, one time, she said that she did like this kind of quick thing about how to survive Thanksgiving with family members who have terrible ideas. ideas and you know she's just like just pretend you're an anthropologist or like a scientist. At the very like if you can't like fame, love and attention just be like I'm a scientist on taking notes. It's like the North Afron like everything is copy you know and I I'm from that like sometimes I'll go into that like okay like I remember so many afternoons on the playgrounds, they're like, okay, I'm

a nampropologist looking, you know, around with these people. And this question is, is the study of stoke velocity gaining in popularity or declining? I mean, I would say almost certainly, you know, if we just look at how many Rome, let's say Mark's realist of time, is the pinnacle of stochastic. The entire Roman Empire, or sort of Western Rome, which is like 50 million people. So what percentage of those people were super excited? Like almost certainly more people get

that they always stoch email than were ever interested in ancient plasping in the ancient world. So like, it might not feel like these ideas are in the ancient world. Yeah, I'm like that. I'm like that. I'm like that. Yeah, I know. So, it might not feel like these things have the penetration or the, you know, the impact that they did then, but actually that it's spread out more globally, but almost certainly

the numbers are much, much larger. You know, philosophy might seem like this sort of obscure academic discipline. But if you just think about how many people are studying, like even if every year, you know, philosophy degrees are declining, you're just like, there's still a lot of colleges and a lot of people are just, which I think is wonderful. Well, it's interesting. I find that when Stoicism is kind of abstracted into me, like I've been wonderful. Well, it's interesting. I fight I find that when stoicism is kind of abstracted to me Like I'm very much like, you know, I fight with a lot like when you when you do your four-partneral virtues

I always am like Thinking about like what's the opposite of each virtue and how much me ping ponging in between them is actually how my work What is the opposite of the torture? Well, like, so for courage in some ways, I see it more as fight or flight. There are times when flight is more advantageous and it's sometimes a fight. I think about the, for each virtue,

there's like a vice in the sense, but then they create a spectrum of possibilities. So I like kind of locate, like for discipline, there's also lack of discipline, and like idolists or whatever. And there are times when my lack of discipline actually like is in contact, is in communication with work. But that's the inner career there. But wait, wait, wait, like, is in contact, is in communication with work.

But that's the intercurre there. But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Actually, Aristotle talks about this. And he uses discipline as the example of what he calls the cool and mean. You know this? OK, yeah. So he basically says, this one is usually rendered

as temperance or moderation, right? And he's saying like courage, for instance, courage is actually in the middle between two vices. It's in the middle between recklessness, which would be too much courage, like has a little... A riot, yes. You know, things only of plunging ahead, how the consequences of that on themselves are other people. And then the other end of the vice-pectrum is cowardice. And it courage is actually in the middle. Oh.

It's the right, I like that. I like that. The key to virtue is the right amount of the right thing at the right time, the right place. But this idea of being in between two vices. Yeah, it's really good. Does he do that for each one? Yeah Okay, I'll read that part. So like justice is talking about like generosity, right?

Which is right sub-perch with justice is like you give everything away and you're family starving and then Yeah, yeah, so it's like somewhere in the middle on school on all of them That's even okay, and I think discipline right? Like the person who is so regimented, so driven, always pushing harder, the person who doesn't know how to recover, who doesn't know how to rest, who doesn't, you know, and so like it's funny obviously I wrote a book about discipline but like for me this trouble is not should I get up like this word, I don't know if it's the example or not, but like I got into my hotel room at 3.30 last night and I had to be at this thing at 8.45.

But I'd really like to run before I do my tops. And so I had this balance between obviously sleep is important. Obviously you're not going to be able to perform well if you are operating on three or some odd hours of sleep. And so this tension between do I sleep in an hour or do I go for a run? And like the which which lever of discipline do you pull here? And then actually that doing the hard thing is the easier lever for me to pull. If I don't feel well, resting is usually harder than forcing, like, cutting through it, right?

And so for someone else, if I could do a tack opposite, right? Like, resting feel amazing, they don't do the thing. But we're both fundamentally struggling with discipline. Yeah. And I love tension. That's like one of my, like,

one of my little, like, pet things I like to think about a lot is Like I always use the example of a guitar string and it's like a guitar string is in between two poles and If it's too slack, it just buzzes and makes no music if it's too tight it snaps So now also that there's a tuning that you're trying to get to. You're trying to get to the optimal tension between these two things. So that would be, that was really helpful for me. One thing I did want to say about the Stoics though, I think the great thing they have in their corner is the Clique Rangers. I'm reading Santa Cous letters right now. I do read which I could put plays.

I haven't read his plays. I think I've read a couple of the pieces before, I'm like, I said, but the letters are great. Yeah, so, because sometimes they get bitchy, you know, it's just very human. And it really is just like that too. I mean, it's just like this guy's notebook. You know, I mean.

It's like, to think about in meditation, this is a guy writing a map for publication in Greek, even though the Romans, he was speaking in the philosophical language. And yet there are turns of phrases in there that you're just like, whoa. And it says something probably about one, if you're not performing or thinking,

you can just, it goes to over talking, but you just lock in and something, just straight from the mind onto the page, you can just, you go over talking about it, you just lock in and something, just straight from the mind onto the page, shooting for all this beautiful stuff. But then also this sort of practice of, like, he was trained in rhetoric, trained in writing, right, trained in poetry,

he, one of my favorite little tidbits about Marcus is like, there's lines in there and they, this doesn't, this sounds like more like a quote than the thing, and they track it down, it's't, this sounds like more like a quote than a thing and they track it down. It's like, oh, this is a lost line from a play from your rippity, so something was like, we never, this is the only existing fragment from that thing.

And he's almost certainly quoting it from memory. Just to himself, there's little lines from the great poets. This is a person steeped in all the great forms of art in addition to being a politician and a parent and a teacher and you just know what his journal was that good. Right. Right. Yeah, and I like Santa Cuck as like when you read his letters, you're like, wait a minute, you said this other thing in another letter. You know, he's very human.

He'll be like, you know, you shouldn't just quote people, you know, you should have some of your own ideas And he's like, by the way, here's this quote from Yeah, here's my daily quote from You know, so it's just like really came in, you know, and I so that that is one thing. I mean, I think that like I Think with when you're when you're writing the type of books that we write, you are hoping that people swim upstream. You know, you're hoping that people will get back to what's inspired you because I just think that's the way reading works.

I think that's the way music works. I think that's the way art works is that if you connect with something and then you swim upstream and you see where it came from. I think that's one of the really beautiful deep things. I'm talking about this in the next book of the Virtua series, I have this chapter on Coaching Trees. The way that they charge it great, Coach is not just how much they want, but like what is the assistance going to be like out. And in this way, great pop, and this is probably the greatest

coach in history, sports, it's incredible. Coach, I agree. But I think as a writer, as a creative, like how much did you repay your debt to your influences? Like did you make them more popular or not? Right. Is I think a sign, like it's like, okay, you're successful if you sell a few books or if you go to your shows or not right is I think a sign like it's like okay you're successful if you sell a few books or people go to your shows or whatever it is that you do

but like did you have enough of a connection and did you impact people enough that they go upstream like you're saying yeah and go well I want to be a fan of the things that made the thing right on the fan of. And so sometimes people will be like, though, they'll, like, and the intersections will say, like, oh, he's just a popularizer. But what an incredible compliment. Thanks. That's literally what I am attempting to do. So it's not something like I find to be an embarrassment.

It's actually also quite hard to do, but to be able to take something that isn't necessarily commercially accessible or immediately attractive to people, like if through your work people are listening to the Beatles, like, okay, they didn't need your help. But if you can help turn people on to things or bring them to a level where then they can go Because, you know, if you can help turn people on to things, or bring them to a level where then they can go to these other things, I think that's like a wonderful, that's a side of like a real success

in your chosen mind. My favorite band always did that too. Like even someone, like people forget like Nirvana brought the neat puppet front stage with them. You know, they were all, you know, Kirk Abay more a Daniel Johnson teacher, you know, Kirkabane wore a Daniel Johnson teacher. You know, like they were always really good at that, even in their brief little.

So, and I always as a fan, loved that, I always loved that. And that's always been a big part of my interest. And that's the why I operate the way that I do. And, and- What is showing your work, which he has been awesome about with that title, which part of not, part of being open about those influences,

the things you're excited about is a big, it's part of, like that's doing that, it's also, it's easy because you're not pretending to be perfect, but there's also a selflessness to it because you're exposing people to the things that you like. It also turns out to be good marketing because when you talk about the stuff that you love, you almost become an art like one of the things that I think a lot of people make their way to my work because of the stuff I share instead of my actual books.

And so they show up for like the news letter or something like that, because oh this guy points to cool stuff and then eventually I get up. Right? And eventually I can't, like hopefully I make something that they want. You know what I mean? No, no, I, someone told me once like if you introduce to people, like, you come to their level, right? So like, if you introduce two important people to each other,

you're up here because you facilitated this relationship. Yeah, yeah, that's right. I thought that is the, like they were saying this is kind of like a networking strategy. Right, but I don't know if you might like this person and then they're like connected us again, and you can remember that. And so if you are recommending music or are or are

thinking or doing something or even you just like you recommend a contractor to a friend and then that would like you have a connection there that goes really deep because you you gave them something that they used. Yes. Can you say something special about that? I agree. Got anything else you want to add? You have any more questions?

I might have loved all of them. Let's do a slide. Let's do a slide. This is okay. No. Let's do this last one. Okay. In our questions on parenting, what do you feel like one could prepare for?

And what do you feel like being in front of you? So yeah what parts of parenting can one prepare for in advance and then what are the things that you've learned on the job? You can probably go to therapy. I didn't do that. I still haven't done that but it might be a good idea. I would recommend it and you just won't do it. You can forgive your parents. That's something someone told me. It's like, you can forgive your parents so you can kind of, I don't know if I did that either. I didn't really need to, but you know, my parents, one of the things I was thinking about when

I was reading your book is I had this, there's this designer named Milton Blake, where he says, in my parents, I had the perfect's this designer named Milton play where he says in my parents I had the perfect gifted and talented program he said I had a mother who told me I could do anything and a father who said prove it and I was thinking about like this kind of like good cop bad cop of kind of thanks which way. I don't know the whole black and foam. Do I know the foot? Yes absolutely.

What is it they focus up on mom and dad? They may not mean too but they do. They fill us full of faults we had and add some extra just for you. They were messed up in their turn by weirdos and maniacs. So do the world of favor and don't have any kids yourself.

I only like the first person. Yeah, well, you gotta take the whole, that's context to me. You know, you owe me. Have you read his one about the hedgehog? I like that one. Yeah, I can't do that one for memory, though. It's like I barely do that. I don't know, there's still time.

Yeah, you did, the one you quoted in the book that I love is the trees. The trees are coming in for leaf, like something being said. time. Yeah, you did the one you quoted in the book that I love is the trees. The trees are coming in for leaf. Like something being said. Well, yeah, that's right. He has his poem about celebrating spring, which we're in the middle of us who it's due and how beautiful and wonderful it is to see green leaves and shoots and flowers. But he talks about what that means is the passage of a year that has gone forever. And I think about that every time I click my kids fingernails. I think of the growth. I go, I'm a little baggy. Well the same for every time. That's a little far from me.

But no, there's something sad about it, right? You're like, I just did this. And then you go, sad about it right there you're like I just did this and then you go I didn't just do this yeah two weeks ago I bought and that that time has gone forever and the person who's now as you clipped last time is gone forever and you you yourself the three weeks old version of you is gone I think there's something there's a morbid sort of stoke term to that and then also something I think that could you a kind of urgency and prioritization clarity. But also how beautiful that you get to clip your fingernails and start over. You know there's a kind of like renew that goes with the spring too. Oh I came up with an idea uh for the for the things you can plan for. You can get role models,

sure, right? Like that's that's you can pick some people who are like down the road, who you're like they seem like they did it really well and you can get to know them. Like I definitely have some I have some guy friends are about 10 years older than me and I find that really, really helpful because they're kind of and then that thing that really helped me when I was starting out is I got really lucky and got to know some writers who were good dads. And I thought that he could do it. What's that? A rare breed. A rare breed. Yeah. Well, I remember going to see George Saunders and I asked him like, how do you be a good father and a good writer at the same time? And he said, well, I used to have a Kirawak phone, or he said, I thought you had to be this wild maniac,

womanizing, drinking, guys, like be a great writer. And he's like, and then I met Tobias Wolf. And Tobias Wolf was his mentor Syracuse and also a wonderful writer. And he said, the way Toby wrote these stories with this teeth, they're so good, but he was so gentle with his children. And he was so kind and loving.

And I did that just like mock something for me. And so I think like just having a good role model, someone who does what you want to do, right? Good dad, good writer, great, you know? I think it's either in a letter or essay with Sena Faisal Square Line, and he says, we can't choose our parents, but we can choose whose children we would like to be.

Oh yeah, and so when I think about role models, obviously there's things you learn from your parents about what to do and not do. But the idea that like that, to go, in my family, right, or like, but my parents that like that should go the peak like in my family right or like my parents always did it this way I think that's a very small like uh uninspiring way to think about it you should you should go who are the just as you would go you wouldn't go oh there's a series of writers in my family that's why I do it or I come from a long line of musicians

or something you would go who are the greatest of all time those are my, that's why I do it. Or I come from a long line of musicians or something. You would go, we're the greatest of all time. Those are my influences. That's the tradition that I'm trying to continue. And I think you can do that with parents. I mean, you can do with anything, but why not do it with parents? And why not go Mr. Rogers' who I look to, right, my model, whatever.

They don't have to be related to them. Yeah, so Jay Z said the same thing. It was like, we were kids without fathers, so we found our fathers on wax. That was kind of cool. But the other thing I would say is, cross gender, because I think a lot of my, like I think finding women writers who are mothers,

or artists who are mothers. That that always for some reason because the Michael Shebaan joke, you know, he says the thing historically that Tandy for men is that the bar for fathers is so historically low. You know, he says something, anything. But mothers have always been like taking to this, you know, a much higher and more impossible standard. And so I feel like reading stories of mothers who are great artists or mothers who are great writers, I found that at a certain point to be a little bit more helpful than just

reading about it. Like the baby on my fire screen? I thought that was good, like a good survey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, and there's terrible cautionary tales too. Well, what I like about that, but there's a book called The Baby on the Fire Skaper, which is more about female writers and artists,

is, I would joke, and there's not a lot of good, creative men, parents. Yeah. But then going like, oh yeah, a lot of the ones were terrible. And that it's more of the problem of being very self-involved and dedicated to your thing. And other things can fall by the wayside. And it's not so much a gender or a societal thing.

It's a individual thing. Well, and it's interesting, and a lot of stories of parents that are good, I think, the spurfs saying, and bringing to the front. A lot of people who are good parents and also good writers, they have a good partner, that Ursula K. Le Guin had a, she was great, but she also had a husband that did his share.

Did you like her quote in the book? I mean, I like the stuff. Yeah, definitely. She says, it's impossible for one person to do two jobs. And she says, art is a job being a parent is a job, but she said three people, her two people can do three jobs. And yes, I think the partnership and caring and sharing your loads what it's all about. If anyone and I'll end with a note I'll go up by her.

Okay my favorite quote by her if anyone's thinking about being an artist and becoming a parent is she says babies eat books. Babies eat books what they spit them out in pieces again and you can take pieces back together and put them together later. Awesome thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. You're doing great. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thanks, y'all.

Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members.

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