The Daily Stoic - Be An Everyday Person | Coach Buzz Williams

Episode Date: August 17, 2024

Being consistent creates real, lasting change. It is the compound interest towards our future accomplishments and who we want to be. This is what Texas A&M Men’s Basketball Head Coach, Buzz Williams, calls “being an everyday guy”. Whether you’re practicing free throws in the gym every afternoon like Coach Buzz's players or you’re writing each morning like Ryan, the common denominator that leads each of us to where we want to go is consistently showing up and doing the work. Tune in to today’s episode to hear Coach Buzz and Ryan talk about being an everyday person, why all success is a lagging indicator, how Buzz thinks about winning and losing, coaching players in the age of social media fame, and more. Don’t forget to listen to part 1:🎙️ Part 1: Coach Buzz Williams’ Playbook for Mentorship and Motivation 🎥 Watch the full clip of Coach Buzz talking about “being an everyday guy” on YouTubeFollow Buzz Williams on Instagram: @TeamCoachBuzz and on X: @TeamCoachBuzz🔓 Unlock early access to Daily Stoic episodes by signing up for Wondery+!✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. We've got a bit of a commute now with the kids and their new school. And so one of the things we've been doing as a family is listening to audiobooks in the car. Instead of having that be dead time, we want to use it to have a live time. We really want to help their imagination soar. And listening to Audible helps you do precisely that. Whether you listen to short stories,

self-development, fantasy, expert advice, really any genre that you love, maybe you're into stoicism. And there's some books there that I might recommend by this one guy named Ryan. Audible has the best selection of audio books without exception and exclusive Audible originals all in one easy app.

And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. By the way, you can grab Right Thing right Now on Audible. You can sign up right now for a free 30-day audible trial and try your first audiobook for free. You'll get Right Thing Right Now totally for free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. I'm Mike Bubbins. I'm Ellis James. And I'm Steph Guerrero. And we're convinced that our podcast, The Socially Distanced Sports Bar, is going to be your new favourite comedy podcast with just a little bit of sport thrown in. You don't have to love sport, like sport or even know anything about sport to listen. Because nobody has conversations which stay on topic and it's the same on our podcast.

We might start off talking about ice hockey but end up discussing, I don't know, 1980s British sitcom Alo Alo instead. Imagine using the word nuance in your pitch for Alo Alo. He's not cheating on his wife, he's French. It's a different culture. If you like me and Mammoth, or you like Alice in Fantasy Football League, then you'll love our podcast. Follow the Socially Distant Sports Bar wherever you get your podcasts.

The Socially Distant Sports Bar, it's not about asymmetrical overlords. James, podcasting from his study, and you have to say that's magnificent. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics.

We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast.

One of the benefits of being a writer is you wear whatever you want. The Rose Line about beware of any enterprise that requires new clothes. I think about that a lot. I get to wear what I want. I get to dress how I want. The Rose line about beware of any enterprise that requires new clothes. I think about that a lot. I get to wear what I want. I get to dress how I want. You notice I'm mostly wearing band t-shirts these days and it's hot in Texas so I usually wear basketball shorts. But when one of my favorite guests was coming, Buzz Williams, the head basketball coach at Texas A&M, he's a disciplined dude and important dude. I was like, you know what? I should put on some real clothes.

So I put on pants and of course, Buzz showed up in basketball shorts and a shirt, which of course he did. He's a basketball coach. That's what he would wear. But the reason I'm telling the story is I just laughed when I saw it. Like one of my favorite stories in Discipline is Destiny

is this story about Zachary Taylor. And here, I'll plug that in for you right now. How we dress and style ourselves is one of those tricky edge cases that makes temperance difficult to pinpoint. A person who is sloppy and slovenly can hardly be said to be particularly self-disciplined. But on the other hand, those

who value the superficial, sharp creases, brand names, or the fanciest new styles over the substantive are equally off track. General Zachary Taylor hated wearing a uniform and disliked displaying his rank or honors, which were considerable. Yet when he met with Commodore David Connor on the Rio Grande during the Mexican-American War, Taylor dressed up to make his guests more comfortable as full dress was expected for naval officers. Meanwhile, Commodore Connor, in a gesture of respect at his peers' humble style, came in civilian dress. All of which is to say that every situation,

every person may require a different approach. Sweat the small stuff, but don't be superficial. Welcome to temperance. It's a balance of opposites by definition. Sometimes we have to be a bit of Commodore Conner and sometimes we have to be General Taylor. We dress well, but not too well. We take care of ourselves, but never at the neglect of the people or things in our care. We take our appearance seriously without taking ourselves seriously. So anyways, what I find so sweet about that story

and what I found so sweet about Buzz coming out is, you know, it's about empathy, right? You're like, how would this person like me to dress? What's respectful to this person? And the best scenarios are where they are also doing that for you. I really loved this conversation with Buzz. He's awesome as always.

If you missed part one, definitely check that out. But actually my favorite little nugget from Buzz is this thing, he talks about being an everyday guy. And here, I'm gonna run a clip of that real fast. The best thing we do is everyday. But the hardest thing we do is everyday. And all that September proves is who's an everyday guy. And if you're not an everyday guy,

it doesn't mean we love you less. It just means you're gonna have to sit over there on the side. You want that, right? You have to be every day and it's not gonna change and it's not gonna go away and I'm not gonna lose my patience and go, oh never mind, we'll just do it again tomorrow. No, we're gonna do it today. That's what makes our program our program, but that's the hardest thing. He's a great basketball coach and a great thinker and a student of the game, but also a student of human beings and life. And you can find Buzz on Instagram

and Twitter at Team Coach Buzz. And I'm gonna take my kids out to watch A&M play at least a couple of times this year. I'm excited to see that. I hope you enjoy this episode. times this year. I'm excited to see that. I hope you enjoy this episode. Think of this idea of like, we focus on what we control. I think that must be interesting as a coach because you have what seems like a lot of control, right? Coaches are powerful, they're important.

They can do this, run these laps. You have a lot of discretion. And yet I've got to imagine the longer you do it, either as a coach you become egotistical and convinced you're the puppet master can make anything happen, you become a tyrantrant or you're the kind of coach who in almost more of a Zen like way become aware of how little control you have over things and the tension between that.

That must be an interesting balance. I think early, this is, uh, I just finished my 30th season in coaching a 17 now I've been a head coach. And I would say before I knew you or before I'd read any of your work, I would say I was on the way to egotistical, power-hungry, driven for the wrong reasons. probably at a normal rate, maybe slightly faster. And I think now that I'm wherever I'm at in my career, I'm completely against that way and much more aware of the constant tension

in every possible way and how little control I do have. every possible way and how little control I do have. That has changed how I have spent my time as a leader, but it's also changed how I do many things within our program, whether it's with my staff, whether it's with our team, who I hire, who we recruit, because I think the greatest impact I can have is on the hearts and the minds and the souls of the people involved, regardless of their title, regardless of their age, regardless of where they came from. I feel like that is more my calling, so to say. I'm not saying that courage is my calling, but I feel like that is more my calling, so to say. I'm not saying that courage is my calling, but I feel like that's more my purpose than what's my favorite sideline out of bounds play to score with two seconds left.

I'm not saying I don't care about the sideline out of bounds play, but I think early in my career to be vulnerable, I think I was wanting to have the right sideline out of bounds play so that the narrative would be what a great coach buzz is. And so we would spend an inordinate amount of time in preparation if by chance, which it's a low percentage chance, that that occurrence would happen, that we would be prepared. And now I'm almost probably to the other extreme. And we probably need to have a sideline out of bounds play

to score guys. If we need one, I'm gonna call time out. That might be one thing. And here's the other thing. If you guys don't mind, we're gonna give some time to specials, a special situation on these days. And I've just created within the routine of what we do that everybody's aware we're gonna work on that sideline out of bounds play or whatever. But it's because my heart has changed on what I believe the most important impact should be.

It sounds like, and I can relate to this, you're a little less outcome focused and more process and people focused. I found this like, I would say early on, I was like, how many copies is this gonna sell? How is this gonna do? What am I gonna get? As opposed to like, what are the things that I need to do?

How can I get lost in actually doing it and be present for it? And the paradoxical thing was it has, for the most part, translated into better outcomes. I just spend less time thinking about and aiming at very specific outcomes. Because that part's not in my control. Like I heard this story about john wooden, that he, you know,

he practices a team very intensely throughout the week. And then right before they would go on, like run out of the tunnel, he would say, Well, guys, I've done my job. And there's something about the like handing it to them. Now, obviously when you would watch Sideline footage, he's clearly coaching. He's not just like sitting there, but he's basically saying the bulk of my contribution

was last week and 10 years ago, leading up to this moment. I'm not gonna grip everything so tightly in the minute it's happening to get it to go a very specific way Because that's actually much less in my power than I would like to think it is So I've read I think this is your 12th book. I've read the other 11 and I've bought 2,000 copies of the other 11 to give them away and you know what? I've learned a lot from you on the work is the win Not to take it away from what you do for a living or even make it about what I do. But it's almost regardless of industry.

We live in a world of expectations. And then we're constantly trying to meet those expectations as if when we meet them, okay, we made it. And then we realize, no, it's gotta go to the next one. They just moved the expectations. Let's just keep changing the goalpost. And so I think what I have sensed, trying to be ultra self-aware over the last, I don't know, five, 10 years,

and I see it even evolving in that timeframe is, well, we live in a world of expectations. And so I've just kind of quit paying attention to those expectations. I'm not saying that they're not a part or they should go away or I get all of it. But if we live in an expectation world, I've just let that go and tried to

be consumed with today regardless of the result of today. Because whether we win this game or lose this game, if I'm going about the process or the work the right way, I don't think it should alter or affect what I'm going to do tomorrow, right? If I'm going about this the right way, what I'm doing today, the intent and the purpose and more maybe the why. So are you saying that the result of today should change what I'm doing tomorrow? No, it should. It may alter it if it makes the process better the next

day, but that's the only reason why. Yeah, it's like, look, if a professional baseball player strikes out at one at bat, I mean, they know they're getting multiple at bats in that game, unless they did something extremely wrong, right? Or they learned something dramatic about the picture in front of them. The best thing for them to do is to act as if it never happened, whether they hit a home run or they struck out, right? Is to go up and do your thing exactly the same way the next time. And the problem is we see the thing in front of us as this looming enormous thing, as opposed to one of many reps of that thing, you know? And look, if you don't win any games, they're not going to let you coach anymore. If I don't sell any books,

they're not like, it obviously matters to a degree. It's just, you kind of realize the more you're focusing on these very specific outcomes, it's actually taking you away from putting more resources at doing the thing. It's making you worse at the thing. That's interesting. I'm listening to what you're saying.

There's over a hundred years of experience on my staff with me. Yeah. You know most of those guys and they've been with us, some of them from the very beginning, no matter where they joined the tour at. And during this past season, on an off day, following a win, one of them who's been with me over a decade, he was like, hey coach, it's kind of different than what you once were. And I was like, I hope so. I mean, surely I'm a little better.

Is that what you're saying? He goes, no, just like, you don't really like get hyped up and you don't like just snap completely. He goes, you get excited, I'm not saying that. And you don't get upset. I'm not saying that, but it's just, it's kind of more level. Even keel. Yeah. And I go, yeah, I don't know if that's good or bad. I said, but it's good internally for me. Yeah. I said, just because I think I have a more direct path on what I'm supposed to do and I'm more comfortable in how we're

doing it. And I think some of the emotions, whether they were good or bad, in an immature way were because of the result of what had just transpired. And I'm trying to improve on not ever using the word win and never using the word lose with our team. And I don't wanna be Nick Saban and say, it's the process. I'm not trying to steal a mantra, but I have to be careful in a world of expectations with a group of 20-year-old men who are living in a different world than I live in, whose historical perspective is very narrow, and

this is their chance, and I want to give them their best chance. So I want to make sure that what I'm providing for them gives them their best chance, not specifically to on the floor, but in all categories of their life. And if they're on a roller coaster because they're seeing me on a roller coaster, well, I don't think in a world of expectations that gives them the most stability. And it's almost like I feel like some of the instability that comes from all of these expectations, that's not really who you're competing against anyway. I think the leverage should be from the instability. Well, what is the leverage? Well, the leverage should be the

stability if you have a path on the purpose and the how and the why to the instability that comes from all the expectations. Alice and Matt here from British Scandal. Matt, if we had a bingo card, what would be on there? Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men, and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal, the show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe.

And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome to the Offensive Line. You guys, on this podcast, we're going to make some picks, talk some s***, and hopefully make you some money in the process. I'm your host, Annie Agar. So here's how this show's going to work, okay? We're going to run through the weekly slate of NFL and college football matchups, breaking

them down into very serious categories like no offense. No offense Travis Kelce, but you gotta step up your game if Pat Mahomes is saying the Chiefs need to have more fun this year. We're also handing out a series of awards and making picks for the top storylines surrounding the world of football.

Awards like the He May Have a Point Award for the wide receiver that's most justifiably bitter. Is it Brandon Iyuk, T. Higgins, or Devontae Adams? Plus, on Thursdays we're doing an exclusive bonus episode on Wondery+, where I share my fantasy football picks ahead of Thursday Night Football and the weekend's matchups. Your fantasy league is as good as locked in. Follow the offensive line on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can access bonus episodes and listen ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Well, it's like probably a 19 year olds who's trying to make the NBA or get out of where they're coming from through the game of basketball.

This thing they've been good at their whole life that they're deeply passionate about and love. The lesson they need from their coach is probably not that winning is really, really important and losing really, really sucks. They know that. What they need from you is the ability to bounce back from both of those, right?

The ability to be like, there's this great passage from Mark Sturlus, he says, to accept it without arrogance and to let it go with indifference. That's what you're teaching, right? You're going, hey, we won, that doesn't say anything about us. We lost, that doesn't say anything about us.

We gotta go do the thing tomorrow and the day after and the day after. And yeah, winning shouldn't knock us off our block We gotta go do the thing tomorrow and the day after and the day after. And yeah, winning shouldn't knock us off our block and losing shouldn't knock us off our block. The only thing that we should be concerned about is if we think we didn't do what we were trying to do, right? Like I gotta, it's like, did I think the book was good?

Did I do my best? Did I put everything into it? Great, some random reviewer, you know, I got a real shitty review on this book from someone. That guy who I don't know, who I didn't care about eight seconds ago, I never even heard of,

him saying that I didn't do this thing I wasn't even trying to do to begin with, that doesn't determine whether it's good or not. And if I overcorrect,, I now on the next project, which is what I'm onto, that guy's voice is in my head. I'm not gonna do as good a job because I'm gonna be trying to please this one person as opposed to following the process and values

and ideas that I should be focused on. But I think you've done an extraordinary job of not allowing the 99 positive comments versus the one negative comment. I think you handle the criticism and the praise the same. Yeah, sure, you have to. I think how you go about that is the secret sauce. Yes.

And I don't know that I'm mature enough to go, all right, well, let me see all 100 and let me just read them, just so that I can be happy about the 99 and then be upset about the one. And so I don't know if this is the right thing. So I've just tried to stay away from all 100, but I don't exactly,

I haven't completely figured out how to do that, to be transparent. No, no, look, it would be amazing if someone was so secure, so self-aware, so rational, that they could take all the feedback and just deal with it. Like it didn't matter and it didn't have impact. The highest level of stoicism is, yeah, you could have someone spit in your face

and then someone tell you that the best and not have either of those things register with you. But I think that's extremely hard and extremely unlikely. And so yeah, creating a bit of a bubble, a protective space around you is really critical. It can't be absolute because then you can start to live in some fake reality, but at the same time, the more you insulate, there's a letter from Hemingway

to Fitzgerald or Fitzgerald to Hemingway, I forget it, but he basically says, look, if you read the good reviews and you let them matter to you, you gotta read the bad reviews and they're gonna matter to you. And it's better to just be like, look, does it matter? Did it do what I was trying to do? And do the people I care about that I'm close to that love me regardless, are they like, you did it, you didn't do it? That's the only kind of

feedback you want to let into the inner sanctum. And I've got to get better at that because I think it's directly proportional, in my opinion. I think it's directly proportional that my growth is based on the willingness to accept the truth. So even if the one negative is the truth, my growth is based on can I accept that without running away per se and saying, 99 said this was great. This guy over here said it's bad. Yeah, but I think my growth over the rest of my life is can I receive the truth? Am I filtering the truth through the right filters to receive it and go whatever the truth is, good or bad, I'm

not going to run away from it. I think that that's where I have to continue to figure out how to improve because of the exposure. Like what you're doing, you're everywhere. And so, okay, well, there's going to be 99 good things and one bad thing. Yeah. So how are you filtering? Are you paying attention to all 100 or just like, no, I don't even look at it,

Buzz. I'm paying somebody else to look at it because I'm just going to keep going on what I have planned. And I think that's where I have to improve because I want to receive the truth. And I don't want to run away. But I think that the truth, as long as it's filtered appropriately, is directly proportional to my growth. But I also think you have such a powerful role in modeling and teaching this to like, so look, you're a grown ass man. You have a sense of who you are. You have 30 years of accomplishments.

You have other things outside the game that can balance you and fulfill you, right? I gotta imagine it is so destabilizing and dangerous to be 20 years old and have tens of thousands of people cheering for you, millions of people following you on social media, that means hundreds of thousands of people not liking you on social media. And so to be able to sort of maintain, the Stokes would call this having an inner citadel, like just a sense of your core worth and strength, what's in your control,

you know, your agency as a person that's indifferent to all these things that are happening outside. That's something you accumulate over experience and time. Most of us are not thrust into the literal arena where people are going like this or like this to you. That would just be insane as a kid. I try to give them a lot of grace because I think everything you said is exactly what it is. I feel very lucky that my book slowly succeeded because if I had gotten everything I thought I wanted,

which is what I have now, on my first book, would have destroyed me. I think so. And I've tried to find unique ways to connect with each of our guys. Because if they're at our level, they are that. Whether they're doing it in real time at that particular day.

But I try to ask them more questions than make statements on, how do you feel about that? Like, how do you think about that? Like, teach it to me. And they're like, well, you're the coach. And I'm like, I know, but I'm, I'm 51. Like not being a jerk to you, like I already made it. You're trying to make it and I'm watching what you're going through and how can I support you? How can I give you help? How can I show you grace? Cause I'm watching it happen. And I'm like, I'm offended. Like, Hey, shut up. Yeah, he's a kid.

Leave the kid alone. Not to negate the passion towards your team, but like, they're kids. I know his mom. Yeah. I know where his mom lives. Yeah. Like, he's doing great. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, he's an overcomer. He's an overachiever. That he's here. Like, if I showed you, you'd be like, good job. This every shot. And I think I've seen it more clearly as now some of my children are the age of our players. And see like 15 years ago when I've got little kids, I didn't see it like that.

Sure. And it wasn't the exposure that it is now, but I've learned a lot from our guys on, hey, thanks for teaching me that. That's a powerful lesson. And I'm gonna do better, and I'm gonna figure out a way to help you. Yeah, and the next version of you

and the version after you. Oh my goodness, it's real. It's real. So what is it, cause you have this awesome video about, what's an everyday guy? Are you tough enough to be an everyday guy? I think, I don't think it has anything to do with Paul. I think a lot of it has to do with how I was raised

and what I witnessed as I was growing up is whatever it is that you're trying to do, however you deem success, are you tough enough to do that every single day? And I think that time, if you're basing it on talent, well, talent at some point in time probably will prevail, but not always. And so if you remove talent, then it becomes consistency, then it becomes discipline, then it becomes how are you spending your time and are you tough enough to do those things every day?

And like I tell our guys all the time, I would like to win, but I want to win playing my hand and I'm okay losing if I'm not playing my hand. And my hand is what I believe is right and I can't sacrifice What I believe those things to be are right and I'm not saying that I am right I'm just saying an everyday person is who I respect the most an Everyday person their talent is going to improve because they're tough enough to do it every day. Hey, I can't shoot. Well, it's like compound interest.

Just, just shoot then if you can't shoot. Hey, I want to get stronger. We'll go in there and lift weights. Hey, I want to lose some weight. And I just think maybe it's counterintuitive to constantly talk about the end. Hey, you want to lose some weight? I can tell you how to lose weight. Don't eat breakfast for 200 days and walk on the treadmill. Do that for 200 days and then get on the scale. Not going the other way around.

And I think that's, to me, that's what an everyday guy is. Yeah, it's like, it's the difference between, my friend Austin Kleon talks about, he says, you know, a lot of of people wanna be the noun, they don't wanna do the verb. That's good. And I think- That's really good. I think it's like we want these end states,

we wanna be seen as X, but we don't understand that it's really a result of doing Y, right? Like people wanna publish books,, people want to publish books. They don't want to write books, but publishing is a byproduct of writing and yeah, improving is a, is a byproduct of doing the work. Having a great jump shot is the result of having done many,

many jump shots. So, so much of what you're being praised for publicly is whatever it is that you're doing privately. Yes. Yes. Whether it's somebody making a jumper or somebody writing another bestseller. Ron, how are you doing that? There's layers to that.

But somewhere in that layer of what you've done over the last 15 years. Somewhere in that layer, you've continued to refine the process and somewhere in that process is included, I'm going to do it every day. Now, I may write more on Wednesday than I do on Saturday when I'm taking the kids to get donuts, but somewhere in there, the consistency of I'm going to do it every single day for me, where I'm from, how I grew up. That's what I respect, is the toughness to do it every day. Hey, I'm Mike Corey, the host of Wondery's podcast Against the Odds. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories

of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who live to tell the tale. In our next season, it's July 6th, 1988, and workers are settling into the night shift aboard Piper Alpha, the world's largest offshore oil rig. Home to 226 men, the rig is stationed in the stormy North Sea off the coast of Scotland. At around 10pm, workers accidentally trigger a gas leak that leads to an explosion and

a fire. As they wait to be rescued, the workers soon realize that Piper Alpha has transformed into a death trap. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wondery app. What's up guys, it's your girl Kiki and my podcast is back with a new season and let me tell you it's too good and I'm diving into the brains of entertainment's best and brightest, okay?

Every episode I bring on a friend and have a real conversation. And I don't mean just friends, I mean the likes of Amy Poehler, Kel Mitchell, Vivica Fox, the list goes on so follow watch and listen to baby This is Kiki Palmer on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts The success is a lagging indicator of the things you were doing. It's a quote shirt. I sent it to you. All success is a lagging indicator. And so that's the point on the biggest loser or the best jump shooter or the best author.

If you're asking me about this, no question is a bad question, but that's the wrong question. And to what you said, like, I don't want you to talk about my Twitter feed. I don't want you to talk about my Instagram reel. I understand how I got a million followers. I understand how I have an email list of 1 million people. What you don't understand is where it started and how it got to that. And if we're only talking about right now, well, then you're never gonna get it. I saw this thing with Chris Rock. He was talking more about inspiration,

but I think it's true here. He was saying, a comedian makes the money during the day, but they collect it at night. So it's going around thinking about the things, working on the things, riffing about it with other comedians. That's where it's made.

But then it's made. But then when you go up on stage for eight minutes or an hour, whether you're in a club or you're selling out of theater, that's the lagging indicator coming true. But the work, the important part was earlier that day or probably earlier that decade. So good. Yeah. So good. Yeah, you're collecting, publishing is collecting, you know? But writing is where the money's made or the gym is where the money's made.

It's doing the thing that's the important part. The public facing part is this accidental byproduct of doing the thing. And I think too often times, it would be like me understanding what you do. I don't. I enjoy and I learn from and I grow from what you do. But the interaction, the association, the tour,

all of the things that come with writing that book. That's a very small percentage of the actual work. Yeah, for sure. And that's one thing that as my career has unfolded, the percentage of time that goes to what comes from this versus what it took to make this diametrically opposed. And it's very easy, whether it's money, whether it's ego, whether it's power, whether it's followings, you have to be really careful that on that 180, you don't go all the way over there and tip the scales upside

down. And I think that's why an everyday guy over time, it's not the first one. It's not the second one. Can you do it again? Can you do it again? And if you can, it is based somewhat on talent, but it means you have kept in proportion what's required to do the actual work. Yes. Yeah, an everyday guy is in the gym early whether it was a blowout loss the night before or whether you won a championship the day before. They're in the gym whether it's been a good season, a bad season, whether they're feeling great, whether they're not feeling great, they're just, they're doing, they're doing the thing. When you write your third bestseller, human nature takes you to, well, Ron, you can go speak

across the country to Fortune 500 companies and arguably give less time, less mental energy, and make more money than when you write the next book. You just totally described the business that I'm in. Most nonfiction authors make more money from speaking than writing, and it's much easier. I mean, look, it's not, it's hard to get up on stage. It's hard to command an audience, but it kicks your ass less creatively to just talk about a thing you've already done

than to do the next thing. And so the temptation is, hey, yeah, I just wanna go collect, right? I wanna collect the rewards from the thing. Like 90% of the talks I give are still about the obstacles away. A book I wrote 10 years ago. So I could just wake up every day and just collect dividends from a thing I already did. But to me, waking up and doing the next thing is one more intellectually challenging and

fulfilling, but it's also harder. And so it keeps me honest, I think. But yeah, that you can I empathize and understand why you don't want to do it. There's a there's an expression that a writer is someone to whom writing does not come easily. So but speaking is easy in comparatively. And so yeah, you can just keep doing, you can go towards the easier thing or you can go towards the harder thing. And I think it's human nature to go towards the easier thing.

We're like water. Whether that's the success that came from the obstacle is the way book versus it's time to write the next one. And I think that how you handle that equilibrium of easy and hard is what constitutes your sustainability. But at some deeper level, it's why are you doing it? Are you doing it so you can make a million dollars speaking in 2025 on the obstacle is the way well to your point you could have done that in 2018 when it had been on the New York Times bestseller for

92 weeks like just just run around but then you wouldn't have the relationship you have with your wife or Walk and run and swim swimming with your boys. Like it wouldn't have turned into this. And like, that's why I respect you and anyone like you that you're, you have constantly fought human nature. Now I'm going to go over here and I'm going to work. What are you going to do tomorrow? I'm going to work.

Oh, I thought you were going to speak. No, I told them to stop. I'm going to work." Oh, I thought you were going to speak. No, I told him to stop. Mark Batterson, who I think is a brilliant author, who has started a church. He's about your age. And what he has done in his world is phenomenal. Author, I think he's written 14 New York Times bestsellers. Author, I think he's written 14 New York Times bestsellers, kind of got to know him the same way. And I have watched his career unfold from afar. We're not best friends. I'm not suggesting that.

But I've watched how he has stayed true to his mission. Sure. Bob Goff, another author, you know, Bob Goff, lawyer, has created academies and helped thousands of orphans, orphans outside of the States. And his rule is, I'll speak, but I have to be home before dinner. Yeah. And it's kind of like Kid Rock. You know, when Kid Rock got maybe addicted to the wrong things.

One of his rules was, I'll go sing at the concert, but I have to be at home by midnight. And so based on where the concert was, was based on the type of jet he had, and based on where the FBO was relative to the concert venue and based on the car service on who they picked up.

And like when he would finish the, whatever it's called, the mic drop, when he was done, they said that as soon as he walked off the stage that the door was already open and the driver already had started the car and he just got in. And they said that when he got to the tarmac, that when he pulled up to the FBO, the gate was already open. The driver never stopped, took him right to the gate. And they said that as soon as he got up the last step of the plane, they were already shutting it and the plane had already started and he was in the air. And they said that when he landed, it was the

exact same and that he quit asking. You know, there was a period of time, I guess when he was really popular. I don't really, I've just studied this scenario. They said that he would do the exact same thing when he landed in Detroit. Just to get home. Just to get home. Wow. And that he turned down that you know how like on some of those shirts that you wear on the back it may have had the concert tour dates. They said that you could when you would buy those shirts if you really looked at the, it would be a certain portion of the United States, but it was all based on he had to be home by midnight,

but nobody ever knew that. Wow. Yeah. I was like, oh, I like that guy. I like that too. That's awesome, man. Do you wanna go check out some books in the bookstore? Please.

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on Wondery.com slash survey.