The Daily Stoic - Bozoma Saint John on the Power of Embracing Memento Mori

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Ryan speaks with Bozoma Saint John about her new book The Urgent Life: My Story of My Story of Love, Loss, and Survival, how intense personal traumas have shifted her perspective on life, why the best legacy to leave behind is to have treated people well, viewing grief as a choice, and more.Bozoma Saint John is an American businessperson and marketing executive who has served as the Chief Marketing Officer at Netflix, CMO at Endeavor, Chief Brand Officer at Uber, a Marketing Executive at Apple Music and Beats Music, Head of Music and Entertainment Marketing at PepsiCo. She has also served as an ambassador for the African Diaspora, special envoy to the President of Ghana, and philanthropic ambassador to Pencils of Promise, and was named among the Top 50 Most Influential Female Leaders in Africa within the corporate and business sphere by Leading Ladies Africa. A series of personal tragedies that culminated in the death of Bozoma’s husband to cancer in 2013 prompted her to embrace her life by living urgently. Now, she lectures around the world on that theme. You can find Bozoma’s work at theurgentlife.com and on Twitter @badassboz.✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short Passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are,

and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. I don't talk much about my marketing days here at Daily Stoke. It feels like it was a lifetime ago, but it was a big part of my life. And I respect it as an art, right? An art form, people who can craft messages, who can captivate attention, who can tell a brand story, who can help a brand sort of take what its inner essence is and communicate it to the world to do that effectively. And to do it in big, enormous, high-flying companies,

that's one of the hardest things to do in the world. This is the reason it pays so well. My guest today, Bozama St. John, has done this for some of the biggest companies in the world. She's a Hall of Fame marketing executive. She was the chief marketing officer at Netflix. She was the CMO at Endeavor. She was the chief brand officer at Uber.

She was a marketing executive. Apple, she was part of Beats when they acquired it. She's worked at Pepsi. I mean, she just worked at some of the biggest companies in the world because she's one of the biggest companies in the world because she's one of the best marketers in the world. But that's actually not what we're going to be talking about in today's episode. We're going to be talking about what is one of the most difficult, but powerful stoic concepts, the idea of the Minto Mori, that life is short.

And she's written a beautiful new book about this very idea. Her new book, The Urgent Life, My Story of Love, Laws, and Survival, was released back in late February. And it's about the loss of her husband, a loss of child, and the lessons that came out of that, what she calls the urgent life, her version of sort of what comes out of Memento Mori. It's a beautiful book. We have a great conversation. I was so excited to get to talk to her. Bozama was born in Connecticut, but then her family moved to Ghana when she was six months old. Then they came back to Colorado when she was 12.

She's served as an ambassador for the African diaspora, special envoy to the president of Ghana. She's a philanthropic ambassador to pencils of promise and has worked with a bunch of fascinating non-profits over the years. Her new book, The Urgent Life, My Story of Love, Lost and Survival, is just a beautiful, haunting eye-opening book. I'm really glad she came on the podcast, and I'm excited to bring that episode to you. Now you can go to theurgentlife.com.

You can follow her on Twitter at badassboz, and I'll link to that in today's show notes, but she's a great follow. The Dell Technologies Black Friday in July event is on with limited quantity deals on top business PCs with Windows 11 Pro. Save on select Vostro laptops with built-in OS recovery fingerprint readers and antivirus protections. Plus, you can save on select latitude laptops with built-in OS recovery, fingerprint readers and antivirus protections. Plus, you can save on select latitude laptops with a wide range of built-in privacy, collaboration, and connectivity features. Enjoy unmatched productivity and connectivity with incredible savings on our best tech. Get free shipping and special financing with Dell Business Credit. Dell Technologies recommends Windows 11 Pro for business. Find the right tech for your needs by calling a Dell Technologies Advisor at 877-Ask-Dell.

That's 877-Ask-Dell offered to business customers by WebBank who determines qualifications for in terms of credit. Life can get you down, I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something. Obviously, I use my journal, obviously a turn to stosism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country,

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therapists and over 40 specialties. It's secure and private and in network with most major insurers. As a listener of this podcast, you can get 80 bucks off your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com. Soshtoic. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com.sashtoic to get 80 bucks off your first month and show your support for the day with Stoic. That's Talkspace.com.sashtoic. Well, it's amazing to talk. I want to start with the epigraph of the book because I thought it was quite beautiful.

I'm going to read it. Diana Acrimon. It says, I don't just want to get to the end of my life and find that I have just lived the length of it. I want to have lived the width of it as well. What is living the width of it mean to you? Yes. I know.

The first time I read that, it like really. I mean, when I tell you, not to me over, I was like, boom. Like, whoever thought of that, you know. You know, the first time I read that, it like really, I mean, when I tell you not to me over, I was like, like, whoever thought of that, you know what I mean? Like, did you ever really consider that? It's like, of course, we all, right, I work out, I eat well, I try to be as mentally sound as possible so I can have longevity. You know what I mean? Like, isn't that what we're all looking for? It's like, oh, yes, we want to get to be 90 years old and still like be able walk across town, like the whole thing. And I'd never considered the idea of the width of it,

you know, meaning that I want to fill every day. And therefore, all the years with an expansive experience that feels like I am making the most out of every day. You know, that feels like a different goal. It feels like then it doesn't matter when the length of it comes to an end. Because if I live the width of it, I will feel happy and satisfied with my life. And that's really what I feel like constantly. Yeah, there's an interesting observation from Seneca. He's talking about, he says, wouldn't it be a shame to be one of these people that get

to the end of a long life and all they have to show for it is the number of years? And I thought of that when I read this quote, like that you're literally living the length of your life, but you don't have anything to show for it other than the number 80, 90, 100. Maybe you set the record, it's one, 20, six, or whatever it is, but like it doesn't really matter if the width of it that years themselves weren't meaningful and purposeful.

Yes, yes. And I think sometimes I can be overwhelming, you know? It can feel like, oh my God, I've got to do like all these big, amazing things. Otherwise, my life isn't worth anything. But I like the softness of Diane's quote. And by the way, I didn't even know about that Sennaka one. So thank you for adding now to my arsenal of information.

But it's like, you know, I feel like the idea of the width of it just makes me think of like, you know, just expanding life, you know, just making sure that like every day feels a little bigger than the last one, not because of these monumental things. Meanwhile, I won't pretend that I'm not ambitious, but the point is that I do feel like it's more manageable to think about, okay, every experience I wanted to feel like, great, how do I do that? Well, the other thing that Senaika says that I think about constantly, he says, it's wrong to think of death as a thing that happens at the end of your life. He says, actually we're dying every day,

meaning that he says the time that passes belongs to death in that like, so his point was don't see yourself as, like so I'm 35, so it's not that I, if I'm lucky I have 45 or 50 years left. It's that I've already died 35 years. And so this isn't like the question of have you lived the length or the width of your life isn't this thing that you evaluate in the future at the end. Actually the only way to answer that question is you've had X many years so far, hopefully

you get more, but are you running that evaluation like, hey, what did I get out of 2022? Did I live the width of 2022 or not? Yes, yes, yes, yes. And if I live the width of Monday, you know, it's like, did I live the width of Monday? And all of these experiences, like did I do that well enough? And to my satisfaction, by the way, not to like some external, you know, like the mom or somebody else's expectation of what

that should be, it's like, it didn't meet mine. And do I feel good about that? That's how I think of it. Yeah. Well, I like that you shrunk. So we're saying your whole life. And then I said 2022. And then you said Monday. But I think it shrinks. It's like, did you experience the breadth of your drive to work this morning doing additions? And I think it shrinks small enough down to this present moment in front

of you. Are you here for it or not, or are you regretting something that already happened, or dreading something that might happen? And if so, you are giving up the width or the fullness of what you could be doing right now. Yeah, yeah. In fact, like, you know, even coming into this conversation, I was thinking about the fact that, look, I've had lots of conversations over the course of my career. And then most recently, now I've had a few of them about my book. But coming into this conversation, I was like, okay, well, Ryan is a new person to me, a new conversation to be had. You know, in every, every experience

like that is new and unique. And the things we will talk about will be different from other conversations. And so it's like, how do I expand the width of even this very experience that we're having right now, you know, to make it feel as full. Like when we are done with this conversation, I want to be like, man, I talked to Ryan and it was dope. You know, that was a good conversation. Like that's how I want to feel. What's like, did you just go through the motions? Did you run through the script? You normally do. Were you thinking about something else or did you actually decide to be there for that thing? I think about that with my kids all the time where it's like,

okay, at some point, I will give literally anything for five more minutes with these people. And then here I am going like, can you just watch TV for five minutes so I can do nothing? You know, like you're giving up the thing that you know will be priceless in the future. You're giving it up right now. Yes, yes, oh God, that's such a great way to put it that you know will be priced in the future. You're giving it up right now. Yes, yes. Oh God, that's such a great way to put it. You know, and the thing is that look, I also don't want to shame anyone who's just like, look, I really need five minutes because if I don't, I really like some bashes going

to happen. I totally get that too. But you're right, which is that like how many times, and this is why, you know, urgency to me is so important. It's not so much about speed, but about the intention of things. If you think about that, you're just like, man, are there things that like I really want to be doing

that I'm not doing right now, that I would say in the future, like, I should have started that thing earlier. I mean, I'll just feel that at some point, right? It's like something that you're just like, oh, if I knew it was so damn great, I would have done this years ago. You know, it's like, well, do you wanna wait a few more years so you can say that

about this very moment in time? No, you don't wanna do that. It was like, so whether it's the width of life for us the years that are already dead and gone, the point is that like, how can we live a life that makes you feel that you're actually living it, that you're actually living it, you're actually feeling you know like good or bad by the way, it doesn't mean that it's everyday

joy, it's just like are you living the life that you have and if you can say yes that's a dope thing. Well I want to get into your, but I thought we'd start with the idea of the urgent life, because sometimes when I talk about like memento mori, you know, thinking about the femerality of life, the shortness of life, people find that they find that either depressing or they find it sort of like overwhelming, like it puts like too much importance too much pressure on them in the moment. But I sometimes think about, it's like we go, if I knew an asteroid was coming to Earth, right now,

we're all gonna die, or I knew I was gonna die tomorrow, you know, I think it's different if you're acting as if it is a certainty that your life is about to end. And then acting with what you're saying in this book and what I think urgency does is acting as if it could come to a close soon. Do you see a distinction there? I'm curious.

No, because I think it's absolutely certain that we're going to die, right? I mean, we know that, obviously. We may not know if it's going to happen tomorrow, but look, in my book, I talk about the fact that my, I mean, my book is centered on the fact that my husband was diagnosed in dead in six months. You know? So when I think about urgency, I'm not thinking about like, oh, well, what if? Like, yeah, you could wake up tomorrow and it could, you could know that like, it's going to end soon, or it could just be over. Or maybe it's not for another 40 years, but my, I don't see that as, I don't see that

as morbid. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I actually see it as inspiring. You know, it's like, look, the process by which I think about my life is just like, how much can I fit into it? How amazing. Sometimes I wonder, I'm just like, man, like, I don't wanna wait for the front porch

in the rocking chair to tell these stories about this life I've lived. It's like, I wanna do that next week over the drinks with my girlfriends. You know, I wanna be like I want to do that next week over the drinks with my girlfriends. You know, I want to be like, bitch, you will not believe what happened last week. You know what I mean? Like, I want that life. You know, that's the life I want.

And so I see it then as inspiring to live life like that. You know, I'm like, if every day, I'm like, wow, if I did that thing right now, like that thing I really want to do, man, it would be amazing. And then you do it, and sometimes it's a failure. Sometimes it's really great. Sometimes it leads you to the next thing. And so why not be inspired by the idea that death is coming at some point.

So you got to like, live it now. You got to live all of the things. There's no time to waste, as they say. No time. I totally agree. I don't find it morb bit at all. I think what I'm saying is that, okay, if you knew for certain that the world was coming to an end tomorrow, there's a certain amount of desperation that comes there because there's nothing you can do about it. It's definitely ending. Yeah. Actual life is more like you don't know if an asteroid is coming tomorrow, right? So you have to live urgently, but you don't live so urgently that you are caught off guard

if you happen to wake up the day after, right? So I think urgent is the perfect word, right? Because you're operating as if time is of the essence, but if you knew for certain an asteroid was coming, time is really not of the essence anymore because kind of nothing matters. Like it's definitely. Exactly, exactly. Time doesn't matter at all.

Time then is not of the essence. It means nothing. You know? So I totally understand what you're saying. I mean, look, I am very much aware that the this idea of recklessness and purposefulness is actually the tug of urgency. You know, it is the tension of urgency, because you do have to be very aware of when you are doing things that are reckless versus

when you're doing things that are purposeful for you. And I think that little part right there for you is, in fact, the part that I think actually bothers people most, it's not even so much the urgency part, you know, because like, yeah, like we could make decisions all day to run fast or to like go in this direction. But the reason you don't is because you're considering somebody else or you're considering some other thing or some other possibility or it's something external to you. And so the, what I'm trying to anchor is that the origin

of life, I think, is very, very clear that I'm actually talking about your life, you know, my life. And so there is no room to consider anything else because we're actually just talking about this one that you have right now. Well, that's what I thought was so moving and it really hit me hard in the book. Your husband is dying. And he basically, you guys had separated. You were in the process of ending your marriage.

And it's sort of the gravity of how little time he had left basically puts everything in perspective for you guys. He gives you a list of things he wants or needs and this thing that I imagine was important to both of you and that you had been deciding to make this life change, suddenly is it important, right? And so I think part of what this sort of immediate perspective that we get when we consider how little time we have is that things that we're all consuming and we were so wrapped up in, or we thought were the only way, it's just, it's wiped clean and we're able to see it differently.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the most amazing gift that I received in this. And maybe that sounds so strange because who wants their partner to die, you know, and feel like it's a gift. Nobody wants that. And if I had the choice to make,

I wouldn't have made that choice. know, when I have made that choice. But what I choose to see in it is the gift of understanding that, you know, and being able to apply to my life in a way that has really, I think, been life changing for me, you know, has made my life so much better for it. Again, it's not as if you don't sit in grief a lot of times and dream about what could have been if cancer didn't come and steal his life. But at the same time, I'm like, gosh, it's like we really did have to really evaluate the things that were important. And by the way, it wasn't always just like these big enormous things. That's also the point I'm making. You know, it's just like, look, on the

list were things like go get gelato. You ever say? Like to some people gelato is very, very important. To my husband, it's very, very important. But my point is that like, again, it's like when we look at the things that we're doing and we evaluate for ourselves, is this really important? Does this really matter? Do I really care about this? And if you don't, or if you're feeling like the tug of like I have to do it because all the obligation, the obligation, then you may not be living your life to its fullest.

And so that's what I'm challenging for myself every day. And I'm hoping that my book will will allow people to also evaluate that for themselves. Well, let me ask you then, what changes? So obviously in a marriage, life's not a fairytale, no marriage is perfect. And there must have been a bunch of things that collectively made you guys decide

we shouldn't be together. And then this diagnosis happens, and you throw that out and you come back together. Again, life's not a fairy tale. So I imagine things weren't perfect there either. But what? You have the interesting perspective that people wouldn't typically have, which is like, here's my marriage slash relationship with the

old perspective. And here's that same marriage with the new perspective. What was different? Like day to day, how did you how were you both change that made it workable with this new perspective? Gosh, that's such a beautiful question. You know, in all honesty, and again, I'll just make it super personal to me, right? Not necessarily what everybody else's marriage is, but I think in mind, I certainly was looking at him as the wrong doer. The one who was like, oh, if only he would be more understanding, if only he would do this, if only he would do that. And looking at all the things and really was him.

Not necessarily me, even though I was just like, oh, if I'm free of this relationship then I'll be so much better. That's the way I was looking at it. And I don't want to make it so flippant because we battled so many things and that's what ended to, you know, set us on this course to the demise of our marriage. It was lots of painful things, but still when I look at it now, to your point of have the real privilege of this, you know, perspective now of looking at it and saying, gosh, was that, was it always him?

No, it was me, though. You know? And so the difference was that when faced with his death, I looked at myself and thought, I don't want to live this experience without this person. That's what changed. You know, and everything else wasn't like it disappeared. It didn't matter. Those things were still there.

But I contemplated what life would be like without him. And I had not done that before. You know, because life without him meant, you know, like you'd be living 15 minutes away, I would see him every other weekend or something, you know, we figure out custody, like that felt more reasonable. It still be around, but just not in my life every day, you know. And I am now in the position where I contemplate decisions that way, you know, like I have the real privilege, like I said, of having learned a very, very hard lesson and now able to look at decisions and say, gosh, you know, is this something that like,

I've really got to let go? Or is this something that I really need to stay for? Because what will my life be like without this thing? Or with the string in it? And that is a much better way for me to value myself in my life versus looking at other people to be the example of what I do or do not want. Yeah, my wife says this to me sometimes not as a threat

or I guess it could also work as a threat. But something like, you know, what's more important, our relationship or this thing, right? And so often we're sort of implicitly choosing this thing. Like I have to get my opinion about on this thing or I have to get my way on this thing or you have to change in this way and we're trying to basically have both, right? We want the relationship and we want

our way. And I have to imagine, as you said, the things you cared about didn't suddenly go away. But in contrast to the most important thing, which was how much time you have left with this person, the volume on the things got turned out. Yes, that's exactly why. That's the right, right. And also I think that I started to value a, how do I wanna put this? It's like, you know, just re-evaluating,

not even just like they're important, but that were they breakable. You know, were those things like capable of breaking something with our marriage or in my life, you know? And the thing is that like look the we had suffered like I said losses together and One of the biggest being our first child, you know, and in that trauma we can't you know began a Real separation that we could not put back together. You know, and so

at the end when we have his diagnosis and I'm evaluating whether or not that moment in time or what I'm holding against him, you know, for our trauma together and what resulted was enough for us to be separated than no. You know? And it's just like, no, this is somebody I have experienced life with in a way that was so life changing for me that I cannot imagine letting him go without being right there beside him. There's something beautiful and poetic. Obviously to you, it's real. So I think to the reader and to us, it's just a lesson to you.

It's your actual life. So you might feel it differently. But I was struck by the sort of cemetery of loss pulling you apart and then loss bringing you together. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. lost pulling you apart and then lost bringing you together. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's, that is the miracle of it, isn't it? You know, that perhaps another perspective in my book, which is that, you know, loss doesn't always have to mean the end of things. You know, that I talk about this in my book, but afterwards, you know, depending on your

belief system, you know, I certainly still feel a quite a big connection, you know, and that I respect him even in death. I love him even in death. I love him even in death. And so the way that we were pulled back together through loss of his own life meant that I gained even more now after he's gone. That like I have so much more thoughts about like, you know, how he lived his life and what he did in his life

that certainly have an impact on me now. And I can look at our daughter, our surviving daughter and be as excited about his life and share it with her. Even more so than I was when he was alive. It's funny, I talk to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading. They're reading more than ever and I go, let me guess, you listen,

audiobooks don't you? And it's true. And almost invariably, they listen to them on Audible. That's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from best sellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs, and of course, ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio, read by me for the most part.

Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app, you'll always find the best of what you love or something new to discover, and as an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest best sellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out stillness is the key, the daily

dad I just recorded. So that's up on audible now. Coming up on the 10 year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audio books, so all those are available. And new members can try audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500 500. That's audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500 500. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page six or do, or in court. I'm Matt Bellesai. And I'm Sydney Battle. And're the host of Wonder E's new podcast, Diss and Tell,

where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud from the buildup, why it happened, and the repercussions. What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Brittany and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Brittany's fans formed the free Brittany movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling

parents, but took their anger out on each other. And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Brittany. Follow Disenthal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or The Wondery App. Well, it's interesting. I mean, you've done all these huge important things in your career that have touched millions and millions of people, companies that have changed how we live and move through cities.

But we're so focused on the impact that we can have through our work. And then in reality, the biggest impact we have, the biggest legacy we leave is exactly what you just said, people who remember us after we're gone from the sort of day to day impact we had on them, how we did things, what we said. So what you're just describing your husband, that's multi generational impact right there, that's in you, that's in your daughter.

She's gonna be modeling and saying things to her own children or people in her life years from now. And so, you know, we so, I think as ambitious people, we think about how can we have this sort of huge impact, and then we kind of neglect or don't think about just like, how am I impacting like the people that I spend the most time with. Isn't that really powerful and life changing right there? Yes, yes, exactly. I mean, that's, you know, it's just like we said before, right? You're thinking about like this urgent life

and thinking about like, you know, these big, big things you wanna do, but yet we can start to break it down into your point like, how did you live the width of 2022? And I said, how'd you live the width of Monday? Same thing, you know, in that idea of impact, right? Because it's like, look, yes, of course, we all want to have a legacy where it feels like,

oh, you know, when it's your time, no one will forget you. You know, and you'll be talking about you and seeking your praises long past. But the truth of matter is that the people who, you really affect the ones who will remember you not just because of like the career choice you made, but because of how they were in your life or you were in theirs, I know it just sounds so pifty to say, but they really

are the most important. You know? And so I am always struck by that. And thinking in both those ways about my urgent life, right? That it is both about like how am I living the width of it, but then also how am I engaging in the present moment with the people I'm with, you know, so that I also feel like I am showing up in the fullness of myself in every instance, all of the time, because that's what will remain.

No, that's interesting. Yeah, we try to think, you could say we're trying to maximize the length of impact we have in the sense that we want it to be as many people as possible. We want our books to sell as many copies as possible. We want our company to have as many customers as possible. We want to be remembered as long as possible. But the depth of like, hey, my grandfather as many customers as possible. We want to be remembered as long as possible.

But the depth of like, hey, like my grandfather wasn't a particularly famous or well-known person, but like day to day, I think about things that he said to me in impact that he had on the depth of that impact. It's ultimately so profound. And I would say weirdly weirdly much more attainable. Like, you can at any person, we know any person could have a huge impact on someone's life, because we know what kind of negative impact you can have by being a shitty person, a selfish person,

you know, an absent person. So like, what could you do by going all in on being a mother or a father, rather than trying to raise the market cap of your company 10%. Yes, exactly, exactly. And you know what, the thing is that like, look, I do believe that there is in fact that you can make in work too, right? Like, there are things that of course I've built that I'm like, oh yeah, do believe that there is, in fact, that you can make in in work to, right? Like, there are things that, of course, I've built that I'm like, oh, yeah, that thing over

there, it exists because I was a part of it, which is fantastic. And I love that. But the point you're making is so salient, which is that we, we consider, you know, these big, big, huge concepts with it without thinking about like the immediate about the immediate impact. I remember when I was right at the start of the pandemic, this was mid-2020 or so, right after George Floyd was murdered. And at that point, it's like, look, I feel like every news outlet, and they were looking for black executives who would speak out about what racial reckoning

meant in corporate America and this and that. And I actually remember the exact, I think it was like an MSNBC interview or something. And I remember like literally being on camera and then being so fed up with the question about like, well, how do companies like you know, like, proceed in this society and with racial reckoning? And what are you supposed to do about, you know, changing the world they're in? And I would just sat there and thought, like, what are we talking about, like, this big societal change?

You know, I was like, that sounds so stupid. It's like, no, what about your own company? You know, you do anything there, what about your own company? You know, you're doing anything there? What about your own family? What about that? How about your circle of friends? Like, did you think about the impact that you have there, or if you've done anything to change that? And if you haven't, why aren't we talking about this society as this large concept? Like, let's stop doing that. And it's the same thing that I consider when we think about life and like our personal lives or personal relationships, it's the same concept.

It's like, why are we talking about these big, big, big things when we're actually talking about you and your experience and your relationships and your life that you're living every day, not just in the 90 years, but like today and tomorrow. And how are you living the bigness of it? Yeah, and it's it's almost cynical when we when we say things like, oh, like that won't make a difference or we point out that things are systemic, right? Or've told this before, but it's like one of my favorite stories. I don't think so. I love this, right? There's a little boy on the beach, and he walks up

and all these starfish have sort of washed up on the beach in like a storm. And he starts throwing them back in the ocean and some man walks up to him and says, you know, you'll never make a difference. There's so many of them. And he says it doesn't matter. And the so many of them. And he says, um, uh, he says it doesn't matter. And the boy says it matters to the starfish, right? Like each individual

one that you throw back, it's, it matters to them. It makes all the difference. All the difference. And I think, yeah, like you could look, you could look at society, the direction of society, and it could be an inexorable decline. Everything could be falling apart. But like, you could, you know, raise a good child, you could have a good company, you could be a good neighbor. There's all these things that you as the individual can definitely do. That's absolutely right.

That's absolutely right. And that's the point you were making about sometimes feeling overwhelmed by the concept, right? It's like it's a good way not to be overwhelmed by it because you're like, look, we're not just talking about this big, huge thing. We're talking about life today. We're talking about tomorrow, you know, and how are you, how are you living that makes you feel really, really great about the life you're living? And that's the meaning of life, right? The meaning of life is what did you do for other people with the tools available to you with the hand that was dealt to you in the moment that you were in?

And can you, you don't have to end your life, at the end of your life, you don't have to be sitting there and going, I was Steve Jobs, I changed everything. You can just be like, I was a pretty good dad, I did work that mattered, I didn't leave a bunch of, like, I didn't leave a huge mess that other people have to clean up behind me. You know, like, right.

Right. And here's all the people that I made smile. Like, that's a pretty good resume. Oh, my goodness. I think that's the best resume. You know, that is the best resume. And I wish that all of us could feel that, you know, and feel that we could impact that. I also don't think that it's like, it's ever too late.

You know, I think sometimes we feel defeatous in that where it feels like all but maybe even to the point of your starfish story, you know, where it's just like maybe if that little boy has showed up, you know, like an hour after the starfish were already washed on shore and some of them didn't survive. And now it's like, oh, I'm too late. Can't help anything. But like, no, there are still a few in there. So, you know, help those ones out. You've got to say there's always a chance to treat your life like you're, you know, that one starfish that's waiting to be thrown back into the water.

Even if everything around you has fallen down and it's not working anymore, you know, it's like, okay. Doesn't mean the whole life is a disaster. Let's do something else today. You probably know Gary Vaynerchuk. He has this video like. He goes like, you know, people are always like, you know, I'm 40, I don't like my job, but it's too late for me.

And he's always like, you have so much time, right? You have so much time, which weirdly, I actually don't think is a contradiction to the idea of the urgent life to me It's like if you're operating quickly and efficiently It's never too late. You could have six months left to live you can fix your marriage You can get your stuff like there you if you operate quickly and you don't yeah, you don't write yourself off You have so much time. Yes, yes, yes, yes. If you operate intentionally, you have so much time.

I think that's what it is. Because how much time do we waste? Waste on things that just don't matter. First of all, that we don't like. We're doing it out of obligation or we're doing it because we think that that's what's going to make us look good or whatever else. It's like we waste a lot of time. All I'm asking is that we stop that that's what's gonna make us look good or whatever else, you know? And it's like we waste a lot of time. So all I'm asking is that we stop doing that, you know?

And even to that point about like doing for others, this might be a little bit controversial, right? But I'm like, can you stop thinking about other people so much? Who made you mother Teresa? You know what I'm saying? Like stop that. You know, like think about that. Think about yourself.

And the fact that, like, look, more analogies, right? Like when you're on the plane and tell you to put your mask on first before you help the other person, yeah, same thing. You know, it's like, don't worry so much about, like, how am I having an impact on all of society? Or like, are you living the life that you want? And if you are, you are going to be a better contributor. You know, you're going to be a better father if you are happy in the life that you want. And if you are, you are going to be a better contributor. You know,

you're going to be a better father if you are happy in the life that you're living. You're going to be a better partner if you're happy in the life that you're living. If you are not, there is nothing you can do. You will suck at those other things. 100%. So I feel like the priority needs to be you in your life. And then it will benefit everything else that's going on around you. Well did, did what you experienced and living in those, you know, six months where time was so much of the essence, how has that changed your relationship to what you say yes to and what you say no to? I imagine it gives you some perspective.

Absolutely. And you say no is like one of the hardest things to do for people. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, that's why it's like, you know, sometimes that's going to be seen as, especially in the corporate spaces, it's going to be talked about like as in burnout. Yeah.

You know, when you're just like at the end of your rope and you don't know what to do, and it's like everything just you give up and you just lay down. You know, it's like you don't want to get there. But you're right, like this, this experience is giving me a lot of perspective in that because I don't want to waste my time and I'm really, really serious about that. It's like, because everything is a choice, right? And so it's like when somebody says, oh, you know, I wish I could make this thing, but I have to do this other thing. No, you don't have to do it. You've made a choice to do that.

That's what you did. You know, it's like the idea of obligation has become so ingrained that we think there's no ability to escape it. But that's just the way that you've created the expectation for yourself. You know, and so I'm like, well, look, if I remove that expectation, then I am no longer obligated to do the thing that I don't want to do. And so then I can easily say no. And that is what the difference has been for me.

It's like, look, I know that I want to spend evenings with my daughter because I'd like to be with her at the end of the day to talk to her about her day. Sometimes I'm not here in the morning and clearly she's at school all day long and I'm at the office and whatnot. So nighttime is the time. And so that makes it very easy for me to say no to dinner meetings or dinner outings.

It was like we had to do it at lunchtime or breakfast for something some other time, you know, but that meant no. Because it's not actually not at all. Exactly. And so that, yes, Ryan, that's the thing. Like say no to dinner, okay? Say no. Just say no.

But that's that's the thing is that like how do you remove the expectations so that you can more easily live the life that you want. Right. Yeah, to pull up Seneca, and he talks about how he's like, if somebody built something on your property or they stole your money, you would be living it. And we're very good and clear about protecting those literal boundaries. But then we just let people steal unlimited amounts of our time. The only thing we can't get back.

Yes. Oh my gosh. Ryan, you will not believe that like, I have an old colleague, Lonnie Anderson, who I worked with at Spike DDB. Gosh, this had to be like over 20 years ago. And I remember saying this, I mean, he was older than me by probably 10 years or so. And I remember one saying that to him so casually, and he looked at me like I had like roamed another head, you know?

I was like, I was like, I just tired of people stealing my time. And he was just like, what do you mean? And I was like, yeah, because when you're in a conversation or in a meeting or at a dinner or at an event with somebody or doing something that you don't want to do, it's just stealing your time. And that has been for sure. Even before I had these traumatic experiences in my life,

for sure was a known fact to me. It didn't mean that I always obeyed it. It didn't mean that I didn't do things I didn't want to do. Yeah, for sure, I did that too. But I think at the end of the day, it's like this overarching belief system that helps me to navigate life so much better than I would if I didn't have that at all as compass. Yes, it's like do you value your time or not? Does that mean your time is of infinite value

and it's always more valuable than other peoples? Of course not, but you have to generally value your time and you have to be comfortable and confident going, I'm not interested, I'm not available, I can't. And you don't even need to say sorry first. You can just say, like, it was freeing for me when I heard someone say no is a complete sentence. Yes, that's correct.

No is a complete sentence. And so is, I can't do it. Where I won't, I won't do it. I won't do it. I won't do it. You know, all of it. I'll never do it. You know, those things are are fine and complete. And if you are listening now and you need the permission, Ryan and I have just be stowed upon you, you're now free to say those words. Yes. Yes. Well, and I mean, having kids was helpful for me

in that regard because I've come to see it as, okay, that time, like as a parent, I promise all of the time that I have that's not for my survival, for work, you know, for the little bit I get from, I promise most of my time to my children, at least to a certain age, right? That's the bargain we make when we bring defenseless dependent humans into the world.

And so when I let someone bully me into a dinner meeting that ends up being two hours to have 17 minutes of work conversation. I let them steal two hours and 43 minutes from my kids. I guess one hour and 43 minutes of it's two hours. But I let them steal that from this six year old boy who, you know, will never speak of dying every day. He, let's, I pray and hope he lives to be older than I can even conceive of right now.

But he will never be six again. Oh, ever again. That's right, that's right. And the things that he's doing right now, you will never see again, you know? And so yes, it's like, that's right. And the things that he's doing right now, you will never see again. You know, and so yes, it's like we are making choices every day on what we value, you know, with our time. And so if you are at all considering, right, and for me, that has happened again and again

and again, not just in my personal life, but in my professional life, whether or not remaining in a situation or continuing to participate is good for me. You know, if it is worth my time, if it is worth my energy and then making a different choice. And like we said, sometimes people don't agree with your choice. You know, a lot of times you're making this choice in the face of other people advising you that you are not doing the right thing with your time. You know, and that your time would be better invested if you remained and did the thing

that they think you should do. But this is where it's like, again, I'm asking that we put ourselves in the center of our lives because that is actually what's going to help you to make the difference, right? It's like the story is just told about, or the example you gave about your son and being sick, it's like, look, yeah, he'll never be sick again, but you'll also never be this dad right here, ever again, you know? And so the decision you're making is for him, but it's also for you that you want to experience him as this six-year-old. You want to be looking back 10 years from now and be like, gosh, I remember when he was sick and he did, you know, that's for you. And so it's like, for him, he's just going to continue to grow.

And he might never remember that thing he did at six, but you will. Right. You know, and so I think that again, it's like, sometimes we think we're making the decision based on something else, but you're actually doing it for yourself. And so if you can consider that more often and be more honest about that, more often, I think we will live more urgent lives and better lives. that more often, I think we will live more urgent lives and better lives. Ah, the Bahamas. What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the

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Download the Amazon Music app today. So, so talk to me about Greek because there's something paradoxical about it in that obviously it's real. Obviously it's very human and you know, simply suppressing it and stuffing it away or pretending you don't feel it. That's not healthy. At the same time, you have your own finite life left. And in your case, as you talk about in the book, you also have this child that has now

fallen entirely on you to raise. How do you think about sort of truly feeling and processing and taking your time with your emotions, but also not letting them steal from you time and happiness and presence and all of that. Yeah. Oh, that's such a big one. Because the thing is that grief, grief is such a trick, you know, because it's also about just looking into the past, you know, because it's also about just looking into the past.

You know, grief gets you stuck there. You get stuck back there, you know, thinking about the things that happen that you liked or didn't like, the things you do over, the things you would avoid. And that's what grief really is, you know, missing that and wishing for the do over. And it really is a big thief of your present. Because the thing is that, like, look, I've had enough grief to understand that you may be in some regret over what has happened

and want it back again to either do-over, like like I said or to live it again and correct the things But that is not going to Change anything about your present You know are about your future In fact in my impact it negatively because you're no longer paying attention to your present or the future and that is probably the biggest lesson that I've learned about grief. Also the fact that we think that you can get over it, but actually what happens is you're just bringing it with you. And so how do you recognize that? And to some degree accept it. You don't accept that it is now a part of who you are and it is not separate. And so therefore it's not like you leave it behind somewhere.

You just a new being with it. And if I think about that, then I feel less regret about the past. Because all of those things are simply coming with me into the future. You know, they're sitting with me now. That's really interesting thinking about grief as a thing that is in it's about looking towards the past. I never really thought about it that way. Yeah, I mean, because isn't that what it is, right? Sure. He's just looking backwards. And so, yeah, because every time I feel grief today,

when I think about my husband or I think about anything that has been lost to me. I always do in the context like, oh, I wish they were here now, right? Because you're remembering them from when they were. Or I'm thinking about, you know, a time like when, especially when I'm in New York City, which is where my husband and I spent our entire relationship, and I drive by a certain restaurant, or go down the street, and that pang of grief hits you, that thing waves over you.

Yeah, all I'm doing is looking backwards, and saying, oh, man, what a time that was. Real? And then feeling the loss of that again and again. But like I said, the truth of it is that it's still with me. As long as it went anywhere, that experience is still here. So I don't necessarily need to be more and full of it.

And perhaps that's what I have found in grief to be also a real awakening is that I feel be also a real awakening is that I feel so much more celebratory about my losses than I feel bad and regretful of them. You know, the fact that they happened, the fact that like I can go down that street to try to pass that restaurant and say, oh, man, that was a good-ass time. You know? And yes, of course, wanting to experience it again, but knowing how wonderful it was to have been there.

And that that experience is still with me. And I can tell it. And I can share it. It says, yes, it's in the past, but it's also with me right now. And it is what makes me this whole being, because I have those things all inside of me. They're all there at the same time. Well, and to give you, Sennaka, again, he writes these two letters are called consolations.

He writes one to his mother and then one to the grieving daughter of a friend of his. And he has this interesting point. I forget which one it's in, but I think about it often. He says, what would the person you're grieving want you to feel about these things? So as you drive down the street in New York City and you see the restaurant that you and your husband went through or you see went to or you see where you guys used to live, it makes sense that that would make a person sad as we just have any reminder of a person that we lost.

But if you could ask them, would you want me to think about our old apartment and be filled with despair and loss, or would you want your memory to make me happy? They would of course think of the latter, right? Like, they would want, it would be weird if you weren't sad that they were gone. But if you could ask them if they would want you to be overcome and incapacitated with grief and unable to continue to enjoy or live your life, they would be like, why would we, why would we take a bad situation and make it worse? They would have always want you to be able to move on and be happy. Yes, yes, absolutely. Although I did threaten my husband before of course we had the serious turn of all of this. I was just like, hey, look, if I go first and you out here enjoying your life, I'm haunting you like every day, like seriously.

Like don't like don't even play with me. Like that's not. So maybe I'm the one person who is the I want you to be happy. I just wouldn't want to know any of the happiness that would make me feel jealous or sad. That's correct. That's correct. That's correct. Don't ask Tom Tell.

Just generally. Exactly, exactly. No, but you're so right. I mean, look, that, right, that's, but it's so hard to practice that, you know? It's so hard to practice that, because you know that they wouldn't want you to be sad. Anyone who's lost someone, you know that

they would not want you to be sad. But at the same time, how do you stop yourself from feeling that? And I'm saying that my perspective has grown in that feeling, that I feel like when I think about those moments, I am trying to then celebrate them instead of feeling despair about the past, that I'm excited, that I got a chance to do that, that I'm able to tell the story about that instead of not having done it at all.

Why I think that's very insightful. You're having the feeling there's the stimulus or the prick or the pain because you saw something, you remembered something, whatever. And then there's kind of this choice, are you going to have, is this going to be positive or negative for you, right? Right. Just deciding to, I don't feel anything, I'm stuffing it down, or, you know, I'm gonna get rid of this feeling by drinking or drugs or busyness or, you know,

any other way of dealing with the emotion, you're, I think, sitting with it and saying, hey, is this going to be a, a, a, a, revenue for what could have been, or is this going to be a revelry for what could have been or is it going to be a celebration of what was? Right, exactly, exactly. And then also, you know, to some degree, a celebration of who I am now as a result of that experience, you know. Sure. I don't know if there's a Senaq version of this one so you might have to tell me but the Japanese art form Kinsugi right is the idea of like you know pottery or plates or anything that has broken and then putting it back together not really it looks back like what it was but filling the broken spaces with gold or silver or some other precious metal and having a new thing. And so I consider that also as a celebration

of who I am now. So when I am feeling those pangs of loss, and again, this is even just about a person, some of the plus is about the career. A loss of a job or a loss of an opportunity, I think about that too, that like, wow, like what an incredible time to have been at this thing, in order to have participated, and that I am a new being because of that situation, and then because of that loss and that brokenness

that I am now fixed together again, but not as I was, but as something brilliant and new. Like that has become maybe even a boon to me. Well, I don't have a centric a quote, but I do have a Marcus Relays quote. Basically, he says, you know, the impediment to action advances action, what stands in the way, becomes the way. So for the Stoics, the idea was the obstacle is the way. So the thing that we didn't want to happen or we thought we would never be able to deal with happening actually has

the power to transform and change us. If not for the better, in the sense that like it's we're glad that it happened to us, we're at least made better for having gone through it. And to me, that's what that that art form is all about, because if you think about it, if you have an ordinary perfect porcelain bowl, that's worth X. But now you have a porcelain bowl with literal, precious metal in it, actually what binds it together is not only repairing it, but it's making it and more beautiful, but it's literally making it more valuable. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh.

See now, Ryan, I don't know if you know this about me, but I grew up in the church. Yeah. And sometimes when the word really hits you, you have to get up and start running around the room, start screaming and crying and throwing yourself around. That's not what I feel right now. Like, you just made me feel like that right now. Ooh, you said it makes, yes, you feel, it's more valuable.

Yes, more valuable for the brokenness. That's a beautiful thought. I love that, love that. Who knew I was gonna get a word today, huh? Well, I absolutely loved your book. I thought it was beautiful. And I've been a fan for a long time. I've heard you on a bunch of podcasts over the years.

So I'm so glad we got to do this. And maybe that's the perfect spot to stop. Yes, well, I certainly appreciate this. And I love when I thought about this podcast and, you know, Estowix, I was really quite fascinated. I've been a long lover of, you know, ancient times and how they are relevant now. And so I'm very, very glad for all of the Seneca quotes and ways of thinking also. Well, I'm gonna, I'll get your address from your assistant.

I'm gonna send you the right book to start with. Yes. Let me see if I have it within reach. I'm gonna send you this book. It's called On the Shortness of Life by Seneca. I've gone through it many times. But I think you'll, I think you'll, this is the Penguin Graded Ideas Edition, but you can'll, this is, this is the, the penguin-graded ideas

edition, but you can see on the cover, it's kind of beautifully decided. So it says, Santa Cohn, the shortness of life, but then they have this quote from it says, life is long if you know how to use it. That seems to me. The, the, the right in line with the urgent life. Yes, that is, that's perfect. I love it. I love it. We should make a recommendation to Amazon. It's like, you know, when they do buy this and then get that? This is what I'm saying. That sounds a great pairing. I agree. I agree. This is amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so so much. I really appreciate it. This is awesome. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to

us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.