The Daily Stoic - Chasing Olympic Gold with Stoic Virtues | Greg Harden, Kate Courtney, & Chris Bosh

Episode Date: August 10, 2024

The 2024 Summer Olympic Games in Paris are coming to a close and it’s been incredible watching the world’s top athletes compete for gold. Today, Ryan talks with Greg Harden, who has worked with Tom Brady and 23-time Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps, about how he helped them stay mentally focused. Kate Courtney, who competed in the Tokyo Olympics, talks about seeing moments of failure as opportunities for growth. Chris Bosh and Ryan dive into how Stoicism helps elite athletes stay on top of their game and get out of their head. Greg Harden is a life coach, motivational speaker and executive consultant who is best known for his work with 7-time Super Bowl champion quarterback Tom Brady, Heisman Trophy winner and Super Bowl MVP Desmond Howard, and 23-time Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps.🎙️Listen to Greg Harden’s’ full episode on The Daily Stoic Connect with Greg Harden on  X: @RealGregHarden and on his website: https://gregharden.com/Kate Courtney competed in the Tokyo Olympics in Women’s Cross Country Mountain Biking. After not doing as well as she hoped, Kate wrote about in the Washington Post, on seeing moments of failure as opportunities for growth, the important distinction between optimization vs. maximization, and more.🎙️Listen to Kate Courtney’s full episode on The Daily Stoic Connect with Kate on Homepage, Instagram, Twitter, FacebookChris Bosh was on the USA Basketball team that won a gold medal in the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics. In the Olympics: Bosh averaged 9.1 points and a team-leading 6.1 rebounds across the eight games, grabbing a joint-game-high seven boards in the gold-medal game.🎙️Listen to Chris Bosh’s full episode on The Daily Stoic Follow Chris Bosh: Homepage, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTubeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. We've got a bit of a commute now with the kids and their new school. And so one of the things we've been doing as a family is listening to audiobooks in the car. Instead of having that be dead time, we want to use it to have a live time. We really want to help their imagination soar. And listening to Audible helps you do precisely that. Whether you listen to short stories,

self-development, fantasy, expert advice, really any genre that you love, maybe you're into stoicism. And there's some books there that I might recommend by this one guy named Ryan. Audible has the best selection of audio books without exception and exclusive Audible originals all in one easy app.

And as an Audible member, you choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. By the way, you can grab Right Thing right Now on Audible. You can sign up right now for a free 30-day audible trial and try your first audiobook for free. You'll get Right Thing Right Now totally for free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. I'm Mike Bubbins. I'm Ellis James. And I'm Steph Guerrero. And we're convinced that our podcast, The Socially Distanced Sports Bar, is going to be your new favourite comedy podcast with just a little bit of sport thrown in. You don't have to love sport, like sport or even know anything about sport to listen. Because nobody has conversations which stay on topic and it's the same on our podcast.

We might start off talking about ice hockey but end up discussing, I don't know, 1980s British sitcom Alo Alo instead. Imagine using the word nuance in your pitch for Alo Alo. He's not cheating on his wife, he's French. It's a different culture. If you like me and Mammoth, or you like Alice in Fantasy Football League, then you'll love our podcast. Follow the Socially Distant Sports Bar wherever you get your podcasts.

The Socially Distant Sports Bar, it's not about asymmetrical overlords. James, podcasting from his study, and you have to say that's magnificent. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. Then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics.

We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast.

So, as you know, Stoicism is popular with athletes these days. And maybe some snooty journalists are like, oh, it's a fad, it's a trend. That's not what philosophy is about. But what's fascinating is that the connection between Stoicism and sports goes back 2000 plus years, not just because the Stoics were fond of wrestling metaphors and boxing metaphors and running metaphors, but because the Stoics actually were athletes. And in fact, there was the Stoics actually were athletes. And in fact, there was one Stoic named Chrysippus, who was an Olympic level Greek runner.

And I talk about this story also in right thing right now. If you didn't listen to part one of the episode, we're focusing on the Stoics and the Olympics, what we can learn and how these two things come together. And so let me run you this excerpt too, because I was talking about how a Stoic would think about being an athlete or what sports can teach us about philosophy. And I'll run you this quick story. There's a modern example and then I talk about Chrysippus a little bit. In 2012, the Kenyan runner Abelki Propmuti became confused at the end of a long

race and pulled up a few meters short of winning. The Spanish runner, Ivan Fernandez-Unea, was close behind and could have easily used it as a chance to win. Instead, he gesticulated, ultimately pushed his competitor ahead and thus lost his own chance to win. Yet, they both won in a way, and so did everyone watching by being and seeing humanity at its best. In ancient Greece, there was a stoic named Chrysippus who was also a runner.

He, like competitors today, wanted to win. He wanted to win badly. That's what sport and life is about. But he also understood that without a sense of honor, without a commitment to rules and fairness, victory is meaningless. It is not wrong to seek after the things useful in life. He said, speaking of the laurels that go to the champion,

as well as the spoils of success in business or politics, but to do so while depriving someone else. And so that brings us to today's episode. As I said, we're doing a deep dive into stoics and the Olympics. And the first person I wanted to talk to is Greg Hardin. He's a performance and mental skills coach that came out to the Paine & Porch.

We didn't get to do it in the studio, we did it in the bookstore. But he'd not only worked with Tom Brady when Tom Brady was in college, but he worked with 23 time Olympic gold medalist, Michael Phelps. Actually, when we posted a clip of Greg on the podcast, Michael Phelps commented on it on Instagram.

They've got a relationship that goes way back. You'll hear about the techniques that he's used to coach many athletes, including Olympians, to the highest level of success. What's that thing they say about Tom Brady? The one thing you can never do is give Tom Brady a second chance. Never. That's a mental, that's not, you don't give Tom Brady, the one thing you can never do is give Tom Brady a second chance. Never.

That's a mental, that's not you don't give Tom Brady a second chance because he's so fast. No. Or so strong. No. He has the best past. It's that if you give him a second chance, he'll learn from what he did wrong the first time.

You know, he'll make you pay. Like that's a comment on the mental game. Yes. And he mastered the mental game early in life. Because I'm telling you, man, he was so confident by the time he left the university. He truly believed because, I mean, if you've seen anything about me, I simply will say to anyone, I couldn't teach him how to throw a ball. I couldn't do anything except teach him how to believe without question or pause in who he was and who he wanted to become. But I think it's good you brought that up because, yes, his confidence is essential,

but that's not in a inherent confidence that he had since birth. There's a scene in the book you talk about where he's like, my coaches don't believe in me. And you go, well, basically, why should they? I mean, because you have to be brutally honest with folks that you care about. And you haven't demonstrated anything. And you're worrying about what they think.

My job, Tom, is to convince you I don't care what the coaches think. And you can't afford to care either. You're not here to be liked. You're here to be efficient. You're here to be consistent. The single most important word in sports, consistency. I can get a hole in one. Yeah. Can't do nothing else. But at one time, that's not enough. Yeah. else, but at one time, that's not enough. I can't consistently perform at that level.

But consistency is the key to who's going to be the best and who's going to be the winner. Right. But is there a difference between belief, confidence, and like ego? Why do you think I like you so much? Look, I'm already, I'm going to be giving you a book that I signed. And in that book, I'm going to go to page 61. Let us turn now to page 61. We're going to turn to page 61. End your book. And on page 61, you will see that it ends by talking about something very specific. If you look at letting your ego help you instead of just inflate you,

you would think that, all right, talk to you. Because you look at that last line, the secret. What does it say? The secret is to make your ego your ally, not your enemy. And some guy wrote a book. So how do you make your ego your ally, not your enemy. And some guy wrote a book. So how do you make your ego your ally? Walk me through it.

Well, it's important to understand that ego in contemporary society is just bad word. But if it wasn't for ego, I wouldn't get out of bed no more. I've got to have the ability to be able to be self-motivated, to be able to push myself, to convince myself to not just dream but to believe. Dreaming big is nice, but I have to believe big. And so I have to train my ego to be not something that just makes me lie to myself or fantasize

that I'm the guy or be a narcissistic buffoon. I've got to convince my ego to be my best friend and to help me when I'm struggling for my what? Self-talk. I think what, so what you're saying is ego is a kind of self-sufficiency, right? Like I think about this, like when I, I have tried to get to a place where as a writer,

where I don't really care how the books sell, I don't really care what other people think about this, like when I, I have tried to get to a place where as a writer, where I don't really care how the books sell, I don't really care what other people think about them, I know what I'm trying to do, and I try to evaluate if they're good or not based on whether I did everything I was capable of doing, whether it achieved what I wanted to achieve, whether I'm proud of it or not, and then everything else is extra.

And so in one sense, there's kind of an ego to that, right? Because you're saying what I care about and think about matters more than what other people care and think about. But there's also kind of a self-sufficiency to that that's like I'm playing my own game, and that game is higher than the game of the crowd or the market or whatever.

Because what we're talking about is having the ability to give 100%, 100% of the time, win, lose, or draw. People get it when I say give 100%, 100% of the time to be the best. But they miss it when I say win, lose, or draw. And so if I am willing to push myself, to believe in myself, and I end up being okay with it might work, it might not work, but I'm going to do the best I can with what I've got, win, lose, or draw,

that frees you and liberates you from the ego that's saying you're nothing unless you've conquered everyone. No, I'm gonna be okay. Yeah, you have to be able to shrug off striking out when losing, bad call, et cetera. You have to be able to shrug that off. Baseball is one of the most fascinating sports in the world.

Yeah. Because if I'm good and 70% of the time, I'm stinking up the place, but 30% of the time I'm that guy. Yeah. You that guy. Yeah. So you talk about shaping your mind differently,

and you can't afford to be tripping hard if you strike out or you don't get a hit. We have the ego of like, I'm the best because I have the best batting average in baseball. I have the most home runs. That works for you while it's working. But what about when, you know. When you have that slump and when you're striking out.

Well, that's when we get to the whole obsession of trying to teach people the mental game. And part of the mental game is introducing, not just, because remember Desmond Howard, Tom Brady, they're not in my office because of mental health and depression and despair, they're trying to be the best. Right, it's an optimization game. That's the name of the game.

So teaching people to trust and believe that what they're doing is right and for the right reasons, trying to convince Desmond Howard that you've got to decide with or without football, your life is going to be amazing. Imagine telling Tom Brady at 19, who's obsessed with being the starter on the team, the most difficult thing I can teach you, Tom, with being the starter on the team. The most difficult thing I can teach you, Tom, is you got to believe with or without football, your life is going to be amazing. Tom, what did I just say? Brady is so intense and so brilliant, he breaks it down for me. And everybody else, it takes me weeks to get them to even consider what I'm saying.

But it is true, right? Because you could blow out his knee, he could get in a car accident, But it is true, right? Because he could blow out his knee, he could get in a car accident, there could be a lockout, he could not get drafted. Like, it's not, that's not a controllable. Because we're trying to prepare you for life. Yeah. People who are mentally fit recover faster than the average person. Yeah, if we take it for granted that a bunch of stuff in the course of a game or a season or a career, it's going to be outside of your control. Yes. What it really comes down to is how quickly can you respond to those things and respond

well. Sometimes it's going to be this big thing and sometimes it's just going to be your pregame workout is five minutes shorter than it usually is. Does that rattle you or can you adjust quickly? Or can you adjust quickly? You're gonna score and you've been fantastic. Can you recover from success? You can't just teach people to recover from failure.

You gotta teach people how to handle the ego. Well, you think a game is 48 minutes and then it goes into overtime. You budgeted for 48 minutes, and then there was overtime. You have to recover, not just physically, but you have to recover to the fact that in your mind, the game was almost over and you were done and you could go home, and then the other team rallied, and now you got to play another five minutes. Yes, sir.

That's the adjustment that you have to make. And again, the mental game is the game. And the ability to identify what's working and what's not working, not only in sports, but in my life. Being able to identify healthy versus unhealthy relationships. Being able to teach people critical assessment. Swimming is the other one where it's just you and your mind staring at some tiles underneath you and the water is always cold. And you're good. Yeah. Do you understand that, because we're talking

sports, swimming and diving. Yeah diving ain't got nothing in common except water. We're on the swimming and diving team. They're radically different sports. It's like a runner and a shot putter. Sure. I knew that I was a true sports administrator when I could watch the mile in a pool. Back and forth. How many laps? I'm on 60. Imagine, and like the closest thing

to swimming and diving is track and field. But track and field is outdoors. Track and field training, I'm running over mountains and hills and pretending I'm an antelope and a panther and doing all these things and swimming. That one line, that white line, and stay in your lane and grind it out over and over and over. You wonder why Michael Phelps had to rebel. I mean, adolescence requires you to fight for autonomy at a certain point. Imagine you've been in the pool since you were 12 years old, told that you will be an Olympian. And at 15, you're at the Olympics.. And at 15, you're at the Olympics. And then

at 19, you're at the Olympics. When just the constant delayed gratification, right? It's like, sure, you're practicing every day and that's the reward is going to be in competition. And you do have some competitions, but really the only competitions are every four years. It's very hard for anyone to show up and work on something when the potential rewards for that thing are an incomprehensible amount in the future. It's like, why dieting is hard, right? Because you know it will make a difference,

but not in any perceptible way anytime soon. Yeah, and remember, you just described Olympians. Yeah. And we're talking about college, the championships and boom, boom, boom, it's every day. But the worst thing about swimming is you take two weeks off, you're behind. Yeah, yeah. They do like a mile warm-up just to get started, you know? And then after the race, they better do a warm-down.

And then they better go get an ice tub. It's a grind, it's the grind. The lactic acid buildup, it's insane. Yeah, you gotta figure out what grind you love though. And you gotta be able to find ways to recover. And you then have to teach that athlete and all the other athletes that your self-worth and self-esteem must not be based on performance.

I've got to convince somebody that how I feel about me cannot be based on my sport. Eight tenths of a second. But then if you're serious, you have to say, well, when did you start being a gymn gymnast a swimmer five. Yeah four How could I not see myself as a swimmer? I'm a swimmer. No, you're more more than a swimmer Yeah The thing you worked hardest on in your life that you're the only one in the world to do or you're one of an elite group

To do blah blah blah all that it's meaningless. Like how can you, what? Thanks. Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. But I get rewards and people love me and they say my name and the lights go off and boom, Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. It ain't easy what I do son.

I just make it look dead weight. Like an athlete, right? It should look effortless. Oh, compelling storytelling, egotistical white men and dubious humour. If that sounds like your cup of tea, you will love our podcast, British Scandal. The show where every week we bring you stories from this green and not always so pleasant land. We've looked at spies, politicians, media magnates, a king, no one is safe. And knowing our country, we won't be out of a job anytime soon. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. Follow British Scandal wherever you listen to your podcasts. of the Murdoch saga. Last year, we also started a second weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for us to talk about anything we find interesting, because it's our show and we can do what we like.

We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like can someone give consent to be cannibalized?

What drives a child to kill? And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts and access our bonus short hand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. The next person I wanted to talk to is Kate Courtney, who's followed Daily Stoke for a long time. I think I found her on Instagram. Also, she'd posted herself reading a copy

of the obstacle is the way. She competed in the last Tokyo Olympics in the women's cross-country mountain bike race, and she didn't do as well as she hoped. And we had this amazing conversation about dealing with that disappointment, what she's learned from it, how you compete at that high level. And what I really liked about the conversation,

she said something I've been thinking about ever since. She said her coach gave her this advice. She said, fast now or fast later. And this is where she's learning this lesson of discipline insofar as how she trains for the race is not over exerting herself so she can be a hundred percent in the race. I loved the piece that you wrote for the Washington Post

after the Olympics. Like we obviously we so celebrate what winning looks like and it's so rare that we don't spend that much time talking about what it feels like to not perform at your absolute best. So walk me through that, because I just thought that piece was, I'm sure incredibly difficult to write,

but it also struck me as very beautiful and important. Well, thank you. I'm honored you read it. You are obviously one of my favorite authors, and I have come back to your books again and again throughout my racing career. And I guess to the overall stoke philosophy that they impart in a very relatable way. But I think for me, that Olympic moment was really, really challenging,

but it was also an opportunity. And I think for me, that Olympic moment was really, really challenging, but it was also an opportunity. And I think writing that piece, I did for me, I wrote it as a way to process that experience and to understand what had led up to that moment. And also, you know, you know, how I could respond to it. And in some cases, there isn't really some triumphant response. You kind of just acknowledge process, take the learnings and move forward. And that was kind of the first step for me in doing so was, you know, writing about the experience, sharing it. And it was honestly amazing to see the response to that.

And I think for me as an athlete, of course, I love the moments where I have this breakthrough performance and it's an inspiration and it shows some people that they could do something they never thought they could do or encourages them to get on the bike. And of course that's like more fun to be in that moment. But in this moment, I actually got a much deeper response and a response from a lot of people who I think throughout the pandemic had been dealing with similar big challenges and moments of working really hard for something and maybe just not having it come through or work out. And to be honest, even in the course of my career, which is so far, I would say like

I've had big success in races, I've lost farmer races and I've won. And I think that's kind of how it goes in life a little bit is you're trying to learn from and deal with and grow through those challenges to allow you to have your next big win. And so for me, that was definitely a pivotal one of those moments. And I'm still figuring out kind of the learnings towards the next big win, hopefully. Well, one of the things you touch on in the piece that that I thought was worth exploring was like, I think we sometimes think that like winning or being great at something is simply a matter of willpower. That it's like if you train for it, if you get in the right headspace,

like it'll happen. And if it doesn't happen, it's like a reflection of you as a person. But like you sort of just you kind of gloss over, but it sounds like you just like it just didn't happen. Like you just did you just you thought it would go a certain way. And you just it just you just weren't yourself that day. Do you know what I mean? Like it just you just didn't get the performance that you expected out of yourself for really no particular reason. Yeah, I think in the time since that, I've come to understand a little bit more about maybe what could have been different

in my preparation or what could change. But at the end of the day, that's completely true. And I think part of what I'm seeing in the world of sports in general, and with me personally is as an athlete, I show up, I have this process, I follow it, I get to these races as prepared as possible, and sometimes it works out,

and sometimes maybe there's factors outside of my control, or truly maybe I just fail to have the best performance that I'm capable of that day, but you're still the same person and you still have the same approach. And the chunk of my time spent preparing and processing and learning still comes from the same place. And so it's this interesting disconnect

where you're really forced to separate the outcome from who you are as a person, which I think is a very healthy thing long-term, but it's also very challenging in the moment because especially when things are going really well, you wanna identify with what you do. And for me, at least I care so much about this sport. I love it. I've put so much of my life into it that it is an identity that's important to me.

Well, yeah, like when everything's going well and you're identifying with it, it doesn't seem like there's any problem with that, right? Besides maybe a little bit of ego, right? Like you obviously know you don't wanna think that you're perfect or something, but you go, as long as I'm not being a monster, what good is there?

What problem is there being proud of how well everything's going? But I think the problem is what happens when it doesn't go well and you still did everything right or what happens when it doesn't go well and it's like, it's not your fault, then you're devastated because you identify just as much with the failure. Absolutely. And that's a pretty tough moment to be in. But I think one that is part of the game,

if you're going to do something and put your whole self into it, you have to learn how to deal with that. And for me, I'm still early in my career, I'm still learning through those experiences, and understanding how to have that little bit of separation, but still care just as much. Because in many ways, being devastated by the Olympics shows how much I care, shows how hard I work to get there and how much it means to me. And in many ways, that points me in the direction of trying again, even in a moment when it can feel really challenging to think about that.

What would you do differently as far as preparation? You said as you think about it a bit more. about that. What would you do differently as far as preparation? You said as you think about it a bit more. Yeah, I think, so the Olympics aren't for another three years again. I think for me, part of this has been a little bit of a disillusionment of that one race.

For me, I race all year. We have nine world cups this year. And that's actually the same field in mountain biking as the Olympics. It's actually bigger, because you don't technically have to qualify. So I think for me, it's really understanding how to separate my personal progression and my goals as an athlete, comparing to myself year over year and getting better at my craft from those outcomes. And that means that I probably won't put the same emphasis, at least internally on that

Olympic year, but really see that in the context of my evolution as an athlete this next go around. And it seems that seems like a subtle shift, but I think mindset wise, that that's what happens when you get experience in these sports. And then of course, like the specifics of training, there's definitely some nuances that need to be changed. And part of what's challenging about being an athlete is that you're kind of you have this perfect plan, but you also are relying on your physiology. And, you know, this year, the main thing I learned was like, what we tried

didn't work for my physiology, I just didn't respond to this type of training. And that's a hard lesson to learn. But it also, like, when you can identify what didn't work, when you can identify what did work, it's a huge learning and chance to do what works and know why it works in the future. I'm writing about Lou Gehrig in the book that I'm doing now on self-discipline. And there's this thing I was just thinking I was just working on, honestly, before we talk, so it's kind of perfect. But he goes through he sort of goes through this slump early in his career.

And he he'd sort of always been really good. So when he goes to the slump, he's like despondent, right? Like he thinks he gets knocked down to the minor leagues and he thinks they're going to cut him. And it's this sort of downward spiral that he's in. And the scout that had discovered him sort of gets dispatched by the owner of the Yankees to find him. And they end up having this exchange

and he sort of bucks him up. And then as he's leaving, like it's a sort of cinematic scene where he jumps on the train, he's pulling away. And the scout says the most important thing that a young ballplayer can learn is that you can't be good every day. And I love that so much. And baseball is such a good example of that because, you know, like, if you bat 300, you're incredible, but that means you're going to be missing the vast majority of times that you're at bat. And so I imagine that your first Olympics, it it's so big in your life. And even just although you've raced a lot in four years, you have raced

considerably more times, it probably loomed very large in your life. And I imagine the pressure of it and the place and what it meant to you only compounded all the things that we're talking about. Completely. And I would I would toss the pandemic in there as well as an extra year of thinking about it. But I do. I love that. You had an extra year to be in your head about it. Yeah, completely. No, I really I love that quote. And I think it applies a lot to a sport like cycling where there's these big cycles.

And this year I've taken more of a break than ever before. So I'm very slow right now. But again, that's a question my coach keeps asking me. Do you wanna be fast now or do you wanna be fast at the next World Cup? And that I think is, it takes a little bit of maturity to appreciate. And it's an interesting balance between being future thinking

and looking at the process and understanding where you're going and trusting that you're going somewhere, but also being OK with where you are right now and being like present with, OK, this is where I am fitness wise right in this moment. And that doesn't mean this is gonna be the moment forever, but you have to honor that break and that rest and what regeneration happens in your body to be able to actually deliver when you need to be fast.

I'm writing this down. So what does that mean to you? Do you wanna be fast now or fast later? Because is that the idea of like doing something hard now that you're not good at that will have long-term impact on your skill set or your, but what does that mean? Yeah, I think the interesting thing about being a professional athlete is we do have these goals and we have cycles and we have training structure for the entire year and

the goal is to really peak. So we're trying to have kind of like superhuman performance for a few big events a year. And a lot of people think that means that you're just training as hard as you can all the time, 24 seven, but really I would say what differentiates amateur and elite athletes primarily is the recovery time, the ability to make that work count and to allow your body to recover between these hard sessions.

So a lot of what we do in the fall is long, easy rides and just preparing your body to be able to take on this load. And it might feel like you're not going as fast as you can or doing all that you can. But it's it's critical to performance when the time comes. No, this is so interesting to me because obviously you talk a lot about courage in that piece, which I want to talk to you about. But it really sounds like what you're talking about here is temperance, where the idea of moderation, which I imagine is extra difficult when you are super committed, super ambitious, super driven. And it sucks to not like I imagine it sucks to not be peeking right now,

because that means you're having to be OK with not being as good as you'd like to be in the present moment or for even for extended periods of time. Yeah, I would. so my dad actually describes this and this is probably more of a business term, but of optimizing versus maximizing. And I think for me, that's really a big part of this phase of my career is understanding what things you're doing that make a big difference

and doing those things fully and completely, but not maximizing and maximizing. I would, I would think of like the young athlete who's, I need to meditate and stretch and do this and do the cold bath and do the, you know, adding in every single possible thing you could be doing, um, just to feel like you're doing everything you can. And really it is temperance, as you said, the optimizing, the being able to identify what actually matters, what you actually need to do to be successful,

execute those things at the highest level possible, and then trust that they're gonna work. Well, and I imagine holding back is difficult. You wanna give, like you didn't become who you were if you weren't really good at giving everything you were capable of giving, right? And then so for a coach or for a race or for a training structure to say,

yeah, you can only go 70% here, kind of goes against like how you're wired, but that's the difference between like fast now and fast later. Yeah. And that I would say, you know, to tie it back to that Olympic experience and to my experience last year, one of the biggest things that I learned is, you know, I kind of pushed so hard in the last two years, I executed every training schedule to the best of my ability. And often, you know, I'm the one who's like always at the high end

of the range of hours, always pushing. And midway through the year, when it seemed like things weren't working out, I had a lot of conversations and I talked to some of the best people in my sport. I talked to my teammate, Nino Scherter, and to his coach and really learned that a lot of what I was missing was that that pushing too hard wasn't doing what I was supposed to do. So if I was given a two hour ride and

they went for a three hour ride in their mind, that was wrong. That was not, Oh, you're like doing more, you're overachieving, you're pushing the limit. That was not respecting the assignment. Uh, and so that's kind of a reconceptualization for me this season about really respecting the plan. And that involves a new level of trust and making sure that you understand, okay, why is it important that I do exactly this? And then having that temperance,

having that ability to say, this is the optimal thing. It's not the most I could do, but it is the right thing to do today, this week, this training block. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondrous Podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, events that have shaped who we are as a country and continue to define the American experience. We go behind the scenes looking at devastating financial crimes, like the fraud committed at Enron and Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. American Scandal also tells marquee stories about American politics.

In our latest season, we retrace the greatest corruption scheme in U.S. history as we bring to life the bribes and backroom deals that spawned the Teapot Dome scandal, resulting in the first presidential cabinet member going to prison. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge this season American Scandal Teapot Dome early and ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. And after you listen to American Scandal, go deeper and get more to the story with Wondery's other top history podcasts, including American History Tellers, Legacy, and even the Royals. Welcome to the Offensive Line. You guys, on this podcast, we're going to make some picks,

talk some s***, and hopefully make you some money in the process. I'm your host, Annie Hagar. So here's how this show's going to work okay? We're gonna run through the weekly slate of NFL and college football matchups, breaking them down into very serious categories like No Offense. No offense, Travis Kelce, but you gotta step up your game if Pat Mahomes is saying the Chiefs need to have more fun this year. We're also handing out a series of awards and making picks for the top storylines surrounding the world of football. Awards like the He May Have a Point Award for the wide receiver that's most justifiably

bitter. Is it Brandon Iyuk, T Higgins, or Devonte Adams? Plus on Thursdays we're doing an exclusive bonus episode on Wondery Plus where I share my fantasy football picks ahead of Thursday Night Football and the weekend's matchups. Your fantasy league is as good as locked in. Follow the offensive line on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can access bonus episodes and listen ad free right now

by joining Wondery Plus. And then the last person I wanted to talk to is the one and only Chris Bosch, who I was lucky enough to work on a book with a couple years ago called Letters to a Young Athlete. Two funny stories about this. When I gave my talk to Kentucky basketball earlier this year, I saw a copy of it in Calipari's office. He was like, oh, I got a whole bunch of them.

I give them to all my recruits. But it's funny, we were designing the cover of the book and the publisher is like, you know, 11 time all star, you know, all his accomplishments on the cover of the book and the publisher is like, you know, 11 time all-star, you know, all his accomplishments on the cover. And Chris goes, sorry guys, let me just add here. Also, I won an Olympic gold medal. And they were like, oh my gosh, we so forgot. And it's true. He won an Olympic medal, the 2008 Beijing Summer Olympics. He averaged nine points and a team leading six rebounds across eight games. And in that gold medal game, he snagged seven rebounds. And you can check out his book Letters

to a Young Athlete, which is all about the importance of putting everything into what we do, even when it's tough. So I think you're really gonna like this episode. You got to train, man, you have to you have to identify what those things that you know, first, what you want to train, man. You have to identify what those things that, first, what you want to do, and then work backwards from there and say, OK, hey, I want to be a really good basketball player, or we want to win a championship as this team.

All right, cool. These are the things that we need to do. We've got to communicate good. We've got to make sure we're practicing and putting the work in every day. And we have to make sure that we're together, and we know our stuff. So when it hits the fan, because it will,

when we don't, we stay together, and make sure we're doing the things that we always practice. Well, that goes back to what you were saying earlier about staying with it. If you've been there a bunch of times and you know, like, we're gonna win this game, we don't care if it's sexy, if it's exciting. Like, Belichick and Brady were like, this will be the most boring

fucking Super Bowl in history. We don't care. But, but, but Goff is like, I got a reputation for throwing it. I'm not being able to throw it. People are, people are going to blame this on me. You know, all those things running through your head, they make it hard to stay with it. And I think, you know, in the situation for like a Jared Goff or even Mahomes, yes, you know, having that, you know, he's running from defensive linemen for the whole game. You know, you have those moments and say, okay, cool. You remember the whole, everything that was running through your head. And I, even for't get too high, don't get too low. Right?

We were, when we were playing in the finals, we win game one. We about to win a championship. Lose game two, embarrassingly. Oh, our game two loss, we gave up a 12.4th quarter lead late. Oh man, so embarrassing, bad. Then we get in the game three, we went that one. Yes, we're about to win it again, we back on top.

And then, you know, then after that, we fell off a cliff. So like, that was my experience. Should have been straight the whole time, because regardless, the game is gonna have a beginning and end, you know, you're going to have to go through the motions of this game. But like that helped us when we played the Spurs because it's just like one of those

things you flinch for a minute you lose, you know, so you have to kind of go through the process, each game good, bad and different, you know, and regardless, you try to do better the next time around. We have a chapter about in the book about leadership. And I think people think leadership is, you know, Tom Brady must have gone in the fourth quarter of that game. They're down 28 to three and given the most exciting speech

in the history of sports, you know, like he's Churchill, you know, like we're going to fight the Nazis on the beaches. That's what you expect. But I think you know, like, we're gonna fight the Nazis on the beaches. That's what you expect. But I think actually leadership is like, Tom's not rattled. You know, like Chris doesn't seem to think we're in any trouble. And that, especially for the younger people on the team

to be able to look to the leadership and go, these guys think we still have a chance. That's what leadership is. You know, they say calm is contagious. So is hope. So is confidence. All those things are contagious. One of the things, speaking of Tom Brady, you saying that part,

that was the year before that. But the main thing that I watched to where leadership was that nobody really even talked about was last year, as soon as he got signed with the Bucks, they're out on the field. Yeah, like a high school. Running around, out on the field in the heat. I'm sure football players, oh my God, I'm sure. From Florida.

So many people, yeah, you know what I mean? I think that went over so many people's head because people only think about the speech that he might be given right now, or why is he back here again? And they'll show them raising the trophy on replay. I only remember it being in the moment, them running the rounds.

Those are the highlights they need to show, because there's a reason why they're cool, calm, and collected, because they've gone over and over and over and over. And then, so when you're in these situations and you're a leader, you're looking to them, well, first, I've put the work in with this person, so I feel comfortable. Hopefully, they've had a few meals together and they've had some good time. So just like to your point, if they're not rattled, okay,

now I will go with this person and lead them. Because if you're being a mean person and nobody likes you, or you're being an asshole on the bench or something, people won't follow you to that part. But doing those small things of when the situation starts, instead of looking at the, you know, grand picture right away, saying, okay, we want to get there. This is what we got to do. Marcus, in meditations, he says, Alexander the Great and his mule

driver, they're both buried in the same ground. Yeah, you know, like the guys that you beat out for roster spots in high school, college, pros, you are now both have something in common, which is that you don't play basketball. And then I was speaking with a friend of mine. He was a guy that we had him at a few of the heat camps. And, you know, he was in that tough spot of, you know,

G league overseas, maybe a few games in the league. Somebody gets hurt. And that's a tough schedule, man. And he's in a position where he's, you know, thinking about retirement. And it's like, wow, he called me up and it's like, wow, isn't this crazy? We're just, you know, in the same spot. I can hear the kids in the background, you know. It's the great equalizer.

We're trying to figure things out. And it's like, wow, you know, how many? I'm just glad I was a nice guy back then. And you know, cool to talk to because, damn, what if, you know, it's good to like, and now that I'm done playing, it's interesting, because like I walk in the room, people, hey, man, how's it going? It's cool to see people smile, you know, because it could be the opposite. Sure. And for him to reach out and say, yo, I'm going through this, I'm going through that. It's like, wow, this is crazy. How about this? We're retired guys now and man, my buddy's getting, I have a friend, he's getting married in October. It's like, wow, I'm gonna be in his wedding and we're just doing the things.

Well, it's like, who was runner up for the MVP three years ago? Or who was Ronald Reagan's vice president? Right. Like, you know, it gets equalized real fast and not that long of a time. Yeah, it's very short, man. I mean, it's very short. And I mean, I get to, you know, I'm lucky enough to get to live over and over in that tape loop of an NBA champion, which is great.

But, you know, knowing that, what we're talking about, I've moved on to other things. And I still love breaking the game down, talking about it. But when I look at it, it's a moment in time, and it's in the past. Now, they're showing KD and Kyrie, and it's a new big three, man. It's newer, it's younger, it's cooler.

And we're the old tape that they're showing, hey, remember this, you know, we're the remember when guys, which is great. But, you know, you always have to have that, you know, you don't have to know what you're doing, but you have to have those things that you enjoy spending your time doing. Well, that was my last question for you. So you have this, I think it gets overlooked cause it's like, oh, the result is that

Chris can't play anymore. But it was like, Chris can't play anymore because he might die if he plays. So you had like a real up close reminder of this idea of memento mori. Like life is short, you could go at any moment and now you gotta to figure out. Yeah.

You know, you still have this gift of time, but you don't know how long you're here for. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next iTunes. That would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music.

And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on Wondery.com slash survey.