The Daily Stoic - Chef Kwame Onwuachi on Overcoming Adversity and Pursuing Your Dreams

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

Ryan talks to Kwame Onwuachi about his book Notes from a Young Black Chef: A Memoir, the importance of looking at failures as opportunities for growth, how to effectively lead a team of people, and more.Kwame Onwuachi is an American-Nigerian chef based in Washington, D.C. By the age of 27, Onwuachi had competed on Top Chef, been named a 30 Under 30 honoree by both Zagat and Forbes, and had opened five restaurants. He cooked at the White House twice under the Obama administration, and he was the head chef of Kith/Kin inside the InterContinental at the Wharf.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2,000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us dailystow.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wanderer's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars

on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm always fascinated with people who are like world class at what they do. I love comedians. I love reading about comedians, watching documentaries about comedians. I love the Gary Schandling doc on HBO. I just watched the George Carlin one. I love musicians. I love poets.

Even if I don't like their thing, I am fascinated by how people get great at a thing. This is what Robert Green's book Mastery is about. I'm a fan of mastery, right? Even sports. I wasn't always super into sports, but as I've come to understand the mastery of different games, I'm fascinated by people who are great at that thing. And food is a world that I'm not super familiar with, but am fascinated by people

who are great at it. I love Danny Myers book, which I carried at the paint-of-porge, called Setting the Table. Just people who are world-class out of thing have dedicated their life to a thing. So I was very surprised a couple of months ago to get an email from someone that they had heard that a guy named Chef Kwame on Watchy was reading courage is calling. He'd mentioned it in some interview. And I didn't know who this was, but I was really fascinated to hear about it. And I went and I picked up his book notes from a young black chef and then we got connected. We have a mutual friend and Sammy Kaupelman who was on the podcast recently in Kwame sent me his new book, My America's Recipes from a young black chef cookbook and we ended up connecting.

I was just blown away by his story. It mean, it's incredible. He's an American Nigerian chef. He's based in DC. By the age of 27, he'd been on top chef. He'd been named a 30 under 30 honoree by both Zagat and Forbes, and he'd opened five restaurants. He cooked at the White House twice under the Obama administration, and he was the head chef at Kith and Kin inside the intercontinental at the Wharf in DC, but his path to success was not an easy one.

He grew up in the Bronx, a sort of violent, financially precarious childhood, but his mother was a caterer and a chef and she instilled in him this amazing curiosity. I wrote a daily daddy email about this awesome story about them smelling curry in their apartment building and chasing it down. He ended up working as a cook on an oil cleanup ship. He peddled candy on the subway to finance his first catering business. He dealt drugs. Also, eventually graduated from the Culinary Institute of America, failed at his first restaurant, but went on to open to others, and now he's the author of these two awesome books. And now he draws on his experience

in the fine dining space to advocate for increased diversity in the food world, and more opportunities for people of color. Kwame and I discuss his experiences of overcoming diversity and pursuing one's dreams, even when they aren't what you expected. You can follow him on Twitter, at Chef Kwame, and Instagram, at Chef Kwame and Watchi.

Well, I really enjoyed the book. I was flattered to hear that you had read my book, so I decided to read yours. And I didn't cook any the recipes, but I really, really enjoyed it. Yeah, man. Well, I appreciate it. Your book, for me, it came at a really pivotal time in my life. I needed some intake. I was getting a lot of outtake and telling the world about what they should be doing. And I was walking through the airport and I saw the cover. And I got an ad that's pretty much represented, represents that.

But is it fortune favors the brave? Yes. So it's a person screaming or like standing up for what they believe in. And then a pile of gold bars behind. And it's something that I always wanted to get tattooed on me. And then when I saw that book also, a kind of like further instilled that. And I've always believed in that mantra. So.

Well, I'm going to tell my publisher that putting books in the airport actually works. And so they need to spend more money on that. I like hearing that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, no, it's funny because I think people think courage is, you know, a bunch of different things. But the courage to sort of put yourself out there. I thought that was a theme in your book, right? To pursue a path that was uncertain, to pursue a path that not a lot of people from your background are able to pursue, to start your own restaurant, to fail at that restaurant, and then to start again after that. I think we often think courage is running into a burning building, but really, it's like what you need just to go through the world. Let alone try to make interesting life for yourself.

Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Courage is being scared, but continuing to go. Yes. It's not just like being this like super overzealous person that just like jumps out and does things. It's like you can still be afraid, but continuing to follow through and that that's what really courage lies.

When if you're not afraid, there's probably something wrong with you, right? Like if you're convinced that it's obviously gonna be a success, you're probably delusional. If you're not aware of the risks and the dangers, you're probably not thinking of enough of the detail. So you have to be scared.

And I think it also, to me, part of that fear is just like a healthy respect, right? Like if you really love the craft of what you do, you should be intimidated by all the amazing people that have done it before you and wanting to measure up to that. Absolutely. And that's what gives you that edge, you know, that that helps those healthy nerves that you have before you're about to go onto a big stage, or before you're about to do a big project, because nothing is also promised. And if you have that mentality that it's like, this is just going to work out without putting in any of the work, I think that's a recipe for disaster, and that's not where excellence lives.

Yes, yes. Well, so one of the things that I didn't know about that jumped out of me for the book that I'm writing now, is you talked about this thing at Perse, that there's like a sign in the kitchen, it says a sense of urgency, is that what it says? What does that mean? I thought that was really interesting because I'm thinking a lot about sort of hustle and discipline

right now. Does it mean hustle? Is that what it means? Absolutely. It means doing things with intention and with velocity. So you're not frantically moving around, but if you're going to throw something out in the garbage can, for a little pep in your step, have a sense of urgency so that you can get back to the task of hand. You know, if you're cutting, you know, pints of mirropois or gallons of mirropois, cut it as fast as you can without cutting yourself, you know, have a sense of urgency, have some, you know, intentionality with whatever you're doing. Because I imagine it's a tension, right?

There's that thing that the Navy Seals talk about where it's like smooth as slow, slow as fast. Or like the idea of attention between doing it very quickly and doing it well, I imagine that tension is something you have to navigate as a chef. Yes, absolutely. And I tell my mentee this all the time, walk with grace. Like walk fast, but don't look like you're almost about to run.

You know, and that can be carried over into all different things that you're doing. You know, walk with grace, do things with grace, but still have that sense of urgency with the attention to detail. It's like in baseball, like you gotta run all the way to first base, even if you don't think you're going to make it, you got to go as if everything's on the line every time. Every time, every time.

And so what would they do to a chef that, like, when you, what is a lack of urgency look like? And what does that mean in the kitchen? Like, like, how would they, how would they notice someone not acting with a sense of urgency? I mean, you can just tell in their demeanor, you know, you can tell in their demeanor if they're not doing things quickly enough. You know, in the kitchen, we're always trying to be better

than the day we were before. So we're timing ourselves, right? Right. We're doing certain prep work. We're timing ourselves. If you're not, if you're doing it slower than you did the day before, then we have a problem. And that's how you would really find out. But you can also know someone is like meandering to the bathroom.

There's a pep in your step that you should have in a kitchen. That shows it's serious because if you have that attention to detail with that particular thing, then it will carry over to the important things. When I imagine it's also about respect in a bunch of different ways. So respect one to the customer, like there's somebody sitting at a table waiting for their food and we do take, yeah, yeah, exactly. But then, and then it's also respect for the dish because like I imagine at the level that you cook at,

like doing something a minute sooner or later could be the difference between it coming out right or wrong. And then it's also respect to the other people in the kitchen who are part of this living organism where everyone is doing their individual piece, almost like in a conveyor belt, but if you're slow, it slows everyone else down. Yeah, you know, it's a, it's like a domino effect, you know? If you're taking too long,

all these, everybody in the kitchen is a piece to a puzzle. We're all a machine that we work together. And if we do that properly, we do a well, then we're firing on all cylinders, right? And if one person is dragging ass for lack of better words or not doing things properly or doing them the same as they did the day before, then the whole thing crumbles.

So that attention to detail, that sense of urgency, all of those things come into play to make sure that the team is successful. It's like a basketball team. Everyone has to play their part. It's like a football team. You have all those players, but everyone has to do their part in order to win a championship. My favorite story in the book though, and I thought maybe

you could tell it for the listeners is the story when you are cooking with your mom in your kitchen and you smell some strange smell coming through the building. Because to me that was a fantastic, I don't know. I liked every part of that story, but maybe I'll let you tell it. smell coming through the building. Because to me, that was a fantastic, I don't know, I liked every part of that serve, but maybe I'll let you tell it. Yeah, so I was, you know, I was in the house with my mom, and I just smelled this like most luxurious, thick aroma that had like every single, you know know, my kind of lot of spices at that age was maybe five.

How did you think you were? I probably like seven. Yeah. So, it smelled like something I've never smelled before. It was like a cartoon aroma where it's flowing through the air and it goes up my nose and I'm lifted on my tippy toes for a second. And I look at my mom and I'm like, you smell that? She's like, of course I smell that. And at the same time, we're like, let's go find it.

So, we go out into the hallway. It's immediately more in the hallway. We can tell that's not that floor. We go down, we press all the buttons in the elevator, and peek our head out. Nope, not this floor. Next floor, nope, not this floor. I think it was like the fourth floor and we run out and we can smell it. And, you know, I think like looking down the hallway, it looked like there were curry flames coming from under this

this door and we knocked on the door and this small, you know, northern Indian woman Answered it and I think she thought she was like in trouble or something. And we were like, can we please just get a bowl of this curry? Like we'll pay for it. And yeah, we ate the dish. It was magical. It was a curry chicken with steam rice. And it was the best thing I've probably still to this day

ever putting my mouth. Yeah, what I loved about this story was, so this thing happened. There's this moment of curiosity. Your mom encourages you to follow it, right? Like to chase it down. And to me, that's such an important thing to do for people when they're young. And then what I like on top of it is the sort of courage to knock on the door and to say,

you know, can I try it? Yeah, that's how my mom raised us to be. If we had some good in our mind, we should speak up. If we really want to do something, do it all the way. And I think that even that story, you know, like doing that at such a young age, I wasn't really afraid of much. Like a lot of people are afraid to talk and speak up. And that's not something that wasn't still with me

even at a young age. And it was important because that lady also ended up becoming my babysitter. So I was able to get that curry all the time. But it showed me that like it, you get stuff when you speak up for it. And there's no way around that, that's just how it is. And I think also that a love of a thing, whether it's playing the guitar or food or classical music or whatever, that it's this thing that sort of breaks down barriers and walls and

lifestyles, and that if you're earnestly following your nose and someone else is earnestly following their nose, you sort of never know the connections or relationships that can come from that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you? I remember in the book you were saying, this sort of, this look rolls across the woman's face, like, are they going to complain? Are they going to say something offensive? You know, any sort of, this, this look rolls across the woman's face. Like, are they going

to complain? Are they going to say something offensive? You know, any number of things. And then the way that the sort of walls melt down when your mom's like, I don't know how to say this, but can I try it? Yeah, can I try it, Kerry? Exactly, exactly. And, you know, we're more like, we're more similar than we are, like, you know, different. We all eat. And you can really travel an ocean on the plane and get to know somebody's culture by just like experience in their cuisine. And you know, luckily for me, my mom was able to instill that in me in a very, very young

age. But I think we need to do that more as people and just be open to each other. Because if we hadn't been open to that smell, if the lady hadn't been open to inviting us into her home, that wouldn't have made the book, man. And it was a great part of the book. So, you know, we need to be open to each other more. But, and who knows? Maybe you wouldn't have become a chef at all. Let alone the chef you became, if there was some world in which that sort of chance experience, smell coming under the door, it doesn't, doesn't happen. Absolutely. Absolutely. The other thing I loved about your mom in the book, which I think ties more to what I

talk about in Stoicism is, is you, you, you call her in, you have your first big catering gig. What's the advice she gets, gives you as you're sort of freaking out, wondering how you're gonna make food for all these people? Um, I mean, the thing that sticks out into my head was trust your prep list. Yes. Trust your prep list. Trust the plan you make when you're sound, you have a sound mind, you know, not a lot of chaos is going around.

Um, because that's when you're a best idea. Well, sometimes, you know, not a lot of chaos is going around. Um, because that's when you're a best idea. Well, sometimes you know, on the fly, really great things happen. You know that, right? But when you're writing a list of things of like controlling everybody in the room, being that air traffic control, just trust that prepless. It's super important. Um, and she came through, man, it was my first big catering event. She flew out to New York. She helped me find staff, helped me find a commercial kitchen, you know, helped me rent a car. I think I was old enough to rent a car at that time. Catering in bed. And yeah, we rocked out. We rocked out this event for like 2,000 people. Yeah, I had less need on the podcast. It was the GM

for the Los Angeles Rams. And he was telling me that one of the things he's always thought about as far as football, whether he's sort of operating in the front office or when he's talking to players, is he talked about this idea of panic rules. So like, what do you do when you're panicking and when everything is turned upside down or chaotic? Like, what do you revert to? And when your mom is talking about the prepless,

that's what I was thinking of. It's like, it's gonna be crazy, but you have a plan. So when things are going crazy, revert back to the plan when you feel like they're losing your parents. That's it. That's all you can do. It's the most intelligent thing to do in moments of chaos

is to stick to the plan and not freak out. It's easy to freak out and it's easy to start looking at how things are going bad or not working out. But if you stick to the plan, the ultimate thing that got you there, you'll be in good shape. Yeah, I've got to imagine, you know, from my experience on watching cooking shows and stuff. And I know it's an artificial environment, but it is this sort of, it's literally a pressure cooker. There's also steam and heat and noises.

And you know, the margin for air is so small. I imagine you see people just sort of get overwhelmed or lose their head in the stress of it all pretty regularly. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so how do you keep caught like, you know, there's the Kipling line about keeping your head about you when everyone is losing their theirs. But in those environments, is there something you think about where you're like, okay,

I got to slow this down. I got to, I got to ratchet this down. How do you think about being calm or still in moments of chaos or craziness? Well, I bring it down to the bones of whatever we're doing. And normally I'm like, hey, everybody, we're not on the operating table. We're cooking dinner. Everyone calm down.

You have two minutes to wipe your station down. You know, you have time to go to the bathroom. You have another 30 minutes to get this prep done. It's like we're not on the operating table. People can wait. What we're doing is entertainment. Unless you're in the operating room. So other than that, everyone needs to chill out and everything will be okay. But isn't that that tension, though? Where it's like on the one hand, you're like, you better operate. It and everything will be okay. But isn't that that tension though, where it's like, on the one hand, you better operate with a sense of urgency. I want to see you have a better step.

And then you're like, slow down, man. This isn't life or death, just relax, right? Like so. No one needs to have a panic attack over pancakes. All right. That's really what it comes down to. And I think when you then take into account the mental health of people in general.

So for example, someone is in doing something. And you know, we were taking a snapshot of them time or like 10 years ago of a kitchen, a three-mission-star kitchen. I guarantee you they do things very differently now, right? So like if someone isn't doing something the way that they did it yesterday, maybe someone in their family passed away and that's on their mind.

You know, maybe they got into a huge argument with their significant other and they can't really forget about it. Maybe they're behind on bills. Maybe their kid is sick. There's so many things that could be happening that we should also be like taking to consideration for people not performing at the level that they normally perform at, that I think there's definitely more of a balance now than there was before. To live your healthiest, long this life possible,

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Did you know that? Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash dope. That's LinkedIn.com slash dope. Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash dope. That's LinkedIn.com slash dope to post your job for free terms and conditions apply. Well, kitchens are kind of like sports in the sense that there is a longstanding culture or assumption based on effectively nothing.

It's just always been the way that it's done, which is that you can scream at a person into performing better, which I think is just fundamentally not true. Yeah. No, it's not true. And it is true for certain people, I would say. It's not true for everybody.

Some people need that. Like, let's go, let's go, let's go. And other people, they don't really respond well to that. And I think it's a little different than the kitchen. I think, you know, in sports, that's pretty common. In the military, it's pretty common. I think in kitchens, we're definitely like getting away from that because you're not protecting the freedom of a nation. You're not making the freedom of a nation.

You're not making millions of dollars. So, and you're not on the operating table. So everyone needs to chill out and relax and take a moment. In kitchens, I think when you're screaming, you're kind of out of control and you lost control. And you don't really know how to convey things properly to people. So I think in the other realm, there's that chain of command that is executed by law.

You can't really disobey your superior in the military. You have to address them a certain way in sports. You have assistant coaches and coaches. In restaurants, yes, we have sous chefs, we have chefs, we have these things as well. But people are there and they're not really getting paid much, you know what I mean? It's like, you can't disrespect these people

and that's becoming more and more prevalent and that's what I love about like the direction the restaurant industry is going. No, I think we're figuring that out across society, which is like, number one, as you're saying about panic attacks, not only are panic attacks not good for someone's mental health, it doesn't speed things a lot, right? Like somebody who's saying the middle of a panic attack is now rendered incapable of doing the task.

That's the only thing they're going home. Yeah, exactly. And then also, yeah, realizing that usually the way to get better performance out of people is kindness, empathy, patience, consideration, space, and respect, right? Like, you don't disrespect a person into doing what they need to do, but I think it's so hard. I, following this trap myself is like, if you hold yourself to a super high standard and you take what you do extremely seriously,

it is very triggering when you watch other people not meeting those standards. Wow. You interpret it. Yeah. And then you interpret it as it's because they don't care or yeah, exactly. And it's very hard to be taller with others as the Stokes would say when you're very strict with yourself. Absolutely. And I agree with that wholeheartedly. And there's a thin line between standing for what you believe in, fortune favors is a brave, bold and being disrespectful.

Just because in your mind, you think someone is disrespecting you, doesn't mean you have to disrespect them back, especially if you're an authority figure within that said realm or company, whatever. You can stick back to the plan. The prep list is this person being ins subordinate, you know, like, are, is this grounds for sending someone home, you know? And if it falls in that, and I think you can lean into that a little bit more without being disrespectful. And I think that's where it becomes a little bit more manageable to have those high expectations. Speak on

them when people aren't executing on that, but still not disrespecting them to the point where it's borderline abuse. Yeah, it's like... You have a couple examples of people like this in the book where it's like, there's a fine line between being a pro, and it's actually not really a fine line, but there is fine line between being a pro, and it's actually not really a fine line, but there is a distinction between being a pro,

taking what you're doing very seriously, and then being a dick or an asshole. And I think sometimes people have gotten used to getting away with being a dick. And I think there's even moments where, you know, I've caught, or someone has pointed out, like, hey, why are you talking to this person this way? Yeah, why are you giving me?

The implication is that they're a piece of shit. Is that what you think? And you're like, no. And then you catch yourself. And you're like, okay, yeah, I'm not treating this person the way that I would want to be treated. But you can get away with it when you are a gateway

or an employer or an authority figure that has something that other people want. Exactly. Exactly, like a paycheck or a promotion or a connection. So you have to be careful with that. You have to be mindful. You have to understand that you do have that power. You know, it's really, really important.

Yeah, you have a story in the book where you went to someone, I think it was at Perse, where you're like, hey, this term that you're not probably using intentionally has a certain racist implicate. It wasn't at Perse. It was just to be clear. Sorry. Oh, yeah, 11 Madison Park, right? Yeah. And like, even let's say that person thought you were totally wrong and that there was no merit to what you were saying. There's no reason that they have to be like, you're coming from a place that's good. Why can't that be interpreted as coming that way?

But instead, I think people are often so insecure and this, to me, the difference between ego and confidence, a confident leader would be able to go, all right, Pau-Mai, I take the feedback. I appreciate it. Here's why we're not going to make that change versus like what does happen, which is to me, what an insecure, egotistical person that they would feel threatened by the feedback. Yeah, and there's those kinds of leaders that I think, we learn how not to lead as well from people as much as we learn how to lead.

You know, that is, I think there's no way you shouldn't just like not use the word. Who cares? The person on your team, you know, that is of that descent, that it's meant to offend and that shit is working, you know. And yeah, it's, I think we've all been there when someone comes to us with information that we didn't know. And there's that level of insecurity that may pop out first because you can't control your emotions, but you can't control what comes out of your mouth.

And I think taking time to really think about it is super important before you just speak. Yeah, well, people don't like to be given information that would have a negative implication on their previous choices, right? And so when someone, they would rather reject the truth of the information than to sit with the fact that they had been, let's say unintentionally, disrespecting or insulting someone. And you're right, it's totally reasonable to have an immediate, to have that immediate sort of cognitive dissonance or reluctance to accept the word. But you do have the ability to sit on it for a couple of days and then be like, why do I

give a shit about this? I'll just all accommodate, all adapt. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I don't think it's hard, I don't think it's hard to care. But we do see time and time again, people not caring,

especially in a powerful positions. Yeah, I think this is lately a very male thing too, where you're like, why didn't you need to make anyone uncomfortable? And it's like, cool, but you did. So is that thing that you're continuing to insist on doing, why is it so important to you? Like, why do you actually need to do this thing?

Right? Like, it's making someone uncomfortable. That's kind of enough, right? We're not talking about these sort of bedrock. You know, no one's asking you to change your name. They're asking you to change a word that you're using that you probably haven't even known for that long. Yeah, exactly.

But you know, people are interesting. So this is what it is. No, I think it's partly also though, like why do people get in those positions of power or success in the first place? It's because they're hard-headed because they don't listen to feedback, right? Like, I found this with a lot of entrepreneurs that I've worked with, right? Like, at the beginning of your career, everyone tells you it's not going to work.

Your idea is stupid. You don't have what it takes, right? It's impossible going to work. Your idea is stupid. You don't have what it takes. It's impossible. Right? So by nature of becoming a successful person or a leader in some way, you had to ignore a lot of polite, in some cases, well-meaning warnings and advice, right? And then the really tricky thing, once you're in a position of power or influence, is it flips. Now, you have to listen to feedback because people are not rooting against you, they're rooting for you. And this feedback is really critical information that you need, but all you have one mode, which is criticism,

feedback, warnings, this is what haters and doubters give me. Yeah, it's sometimes difficult to navigate the advice. Like you said, they didn't get there by just taking advice from people, I'm taking risks. Yeah. And going against the grain, you know, there are less leaders than there are like workers. So it seems like the decisions they've been making to get to that point have been mostly all cared and all positives.

Especially when nobody was holding anyone accountable. Yeah. You know, 20 years ago, 10 years ago. So, so yeah, it's definitely tough in that position, but I think a real leader has transformations every so often. You know, totally, total transformations that they don't even recognize themselves a couple years ago because they're continuing to grow and continuing to learn, continuing to like challenge their minds and challenge themselves and say, how can I be better next year?

So yeah, I think there's definitely that there's two sides to that, and it's tough to navigate as a creative and as an entrepreneur. When I bet even as a chef, this is difficult, right? If you only made, if people only made stuff that that customers or critics were really comfortable with that understood nothing knew whatever happened. At the same time, if as you're making, you're only thinking about your own individual preferences or tastes and you're totally inconsiderate or ignorant to what the audience would want,

what the actual experience is for the diner, the customer, the person consuming the product, you also screw it up. And so you have to figure out how to be both true to your own calling and interests, and then also empathetic and relational to the person on the other side of what's ultimately a transaction. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I couldn't have said it any better. You have to never stop growing, you know, and that's that's what I tell my team a lot is like don't stop growing, you know, like every year we should be like trying to do something a little bit different and not just sticking in the same lane. I think life is such a gift and I also think that's fucking boring. Like, I don't want to continue just doing the same thing every single year. I still want to keep getting better at my craft, but I also want to do other things. So yeah, I do. Like with your first restaurant, if I remember correctly, you make the decision like it's

like a flat rate and it's expensive. And you're sort of booking it like tickets as opposed to like paying at the table like every other restaurant. So, on the one hand, like, where would we be if people always respected the status quo? And then on the other hand, people found that maybe a bridge too far in some respects. So it's this, it's again, it's like, we were talking about earlier, it's like, you got to move fast, but not too fast. There's this tension and innovation, which is like, you should always be pushing the envelope at the same time. People have notions of what they want, and it doesn't always work when you get outside what they're way

want or are comfortable with. Yeah, absolutely. There's always, I mean, that happens in every single industry, you know, someone being ahead of their time or, or man, I wish this was around now as opposed to like five years ago. But that's the beauty of it. That's where inspiration comes about. People are inspired by people's failures as well. They see how it didn't go right,

and they know that if I just did this one little thing and I move this right here, then you have Pepsi. You know what I mean? So it's like, I think that there's so many ways you can look at failure and things not working, but it shouldn't be fear. Fear should not be any one of those.

It should just be inspiring to do something maybe a little different or get back up and do it again. Well, to me, that's the illustrative part about that quote, fortune favors the brave. First off, the guy who said that quote, he died. Like it didn't work out for him, right? So I think that's an important cautionary reminder. He's rescuing his friend. He rescues the friend, but he doesn't make it.

So, but I think the illustrative word in that quote is favors, right? It's like rules like in Blackjack. Like most of the time, it will work out in your favor or by a slim margin, like 1%, it will work out in your favor or by a slim margin, like 1%, it will work out in your favor. But that also means a lot of the times it won't work. So when we say fortune favors the brave, no one's saying, hey, if you do something bold

and visionary and new, it's guaranteed to work. They're saying it might work. They're saying it might work and if you're bold and brave often enough, it will tend to work out in your favor. Yeah. And most importantly, if you keep trying, right? Like, if you keep like it often enough, if you keep getting up and up and up again, that's the only time it really works out for people. Yeah. Because in your case, the first restaurant doesn't work, and now you've got two, you've got two different restaurants, right? Or two different concepts.

If you, it's this tension of like, well, what lesson do you learn from it, not working? Do you learn that you suck, that you're a failure, that it's impossible, or do you learn a bunch of practical lessons that help you on round two, three, four all the way to infinity. That's it. It just everything you do is a learning lesson, whether it's a failure or is a success, and you can then continue to apply that to this gift we have called life. Well, what are the lessons you feel like you took out of the, what I imagine was not just a failure, but you did such a great job with the

marketing and the buzz and the branding that it was more public than, you know, most people's failures, right? Like it was, it was a champagne problem in the sense that like anyone cared, most restaurants opened and closed and nobody even knows. Exactly. I think for me, the lesson that I learned was that my team was just as important as me. I could not do something alone. And we opened up a restaurant six months later and it was like nationally acclaimed. So it wasn't any tactical things that I was really learning.

I was like, oh, shit, cooked the fish one minute less. It wasn't anything like that. Yeah. It was really like the team aspect needed to be super strong in order to pull off a successful restaurant. Yeah, it seemed like also, I got to imagine the tricky thing in your space. Like, is, it's like the difference between books and movies. Like, one is so much more expensive to do than it makes the margin for error so much smaller, right? And like one of the tricky parts I imagine with again, like the idea of fortune favors the brave

is that the bigger you're swaying, the not just more likely is it that you'll miss, but like the more painful. Painful. Yes, it's painful. Yes, you put $5,000 on, you know, on red. And you lose that. It hurts more and it's a bigger show in the casino than it could put $5 down. And it's, you know, it just is what it is, but I love that. I love swinging big. To me, it's, I'm a go bigger, go home kind of guy. Yeah.

I want to put all my eggs in the basket and just see what happens because as long as I'm alive, I can get another basket. Yeah, although I see this with writers, they'll be like, I have this idea for a book, like, this is what I want to do. They're like, I want to quit my job and write this book. And I'm like, of course, you should totally write the book. And maybe at some point, you should quit your job to do it. But I was like, show me one thing you have written and put out into the world first.

You know what I mean? This is probably the difference between like a food truck and starting with a $3 million restaurant, right? Like, I think people often get caught up in the enthusiasm or the passion for the concept and they don't think about what's the smaller way that I can test this or get feedback or confirmation about the idea first. Mm-hmm.

It's important to do your work. It's important to put in the work. I, when I'm on tour, which is my book tour from my new book, My America, and, you know, I would have young chefs ask me like, what do I need to do to be successful like you? I was like, well, first of all, I don't really know you like that. So I can't give you a very sound, you know, blueprint on what your life should be, where it should be going, what you should do next. But I can tell you, you need to find the hardest restaurant in your city and go, I'm like,

do you work at a restaurant now? They're like, no, I'm like, okay, well then. Right. You know, it's a first- Start a restaurant. Yeah, don't start a restaurant. Don't start a pop-up thing yet. Go work at a very hard restaurant.

Go work in restaurants. At least for a year, you want to do pop-ups. Go help the guy that does pop-ups all around the city and work in restaurants. At least four a year, you want to do pop-ups, go help the guy that does pop-ups all around the city, and work for him. The person that does it the best and swallow your pride because you're not great at what you're doing yet, but you can be if you really put in the work. And I tell that to everybody, and it doesn't matter what field you're in, you can want to make eye glasses. Go work at, I don't know, the Warri parker factory and just see how they put out glasses,

see how they design glasses, see how they get their frames from China. And you know, yeah, those things like, you can only read about it so much and you can have a quantum leap if you take a peek behind a curtain of someone that's doing something at an excellent level. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another

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You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery app. You have to figure out how the process of the thing that you're trying to do works, because you don't want to learn one on your own dime, and you don't want to make a bunch of costly mistakes. Like, for me, before I became a writer, I was a research assistant to a great writer. And so I, there was no mystique to me about how a book came together from Suke Tnuts, when I had my idea for five, my first book, I knew, I didn't know if my idea, I couldn't know for sure that my idea was a good one,

but I had very little doubt that I knew how to translate the idea into a book. And I got to imagine that when you work at a great restaurant, like a 11 Madison Park or per se, you're like, oh, this is a factory that makes food. Like, I is a system that operates and you know how it works and you're not like walking into a kitchen for the first time when you've put your life savings on the line. Exactly. Exactly. And that's for any single craft you need to like put in the work first.

Exactly. Exactly. And that's for any single craft you need to like put in the work first. Yes, you can yes, you can be naturally talented, you know, but every great basketball player to go to basketball camp. Yeah. And it's super important to learn the fundamentals of whatever you're doing. Yeah, and I think there's often a lot of ego that like as an outsider, people make assumptions about why things are done a certain way. Yeah. It's not until you get in the kitchen, you're like, Oh, no, they do it this way because that's how the orders come in or like, like, there's a bunch of constraints operating on every business, every industry, every kind of project that as you as an outsider, if you don't figure that out by watching

how it's done, you're going to make a lot of naive assumptions that are based on not on reality, but on what you wish to be true. And then you're going to get your ass handed to when you get in the arena, so to speak. Oh, hell yeah. Hell yeah. It'll be a rude awakening too. And you'll be just fumbling the bag like never before.

I remember I did a, I talked about it in the book. I did a catering event. And it's like my, you know, Kwame on Wachie, releasing to the world of chef Kwame. Yeah. And it's supposed to be only like 100 people and like 300 people show up. I don't know how to organize a kitchen.

It's my first time in this kitchen. So I don't know where things are. I don't know how it works. And I fail miserably. And it's not until like I have to take a step back and say like I need to like work on my craft more at a very high level. If I want to be a leader, a cook is different.

I can jump in any station, just give me the recipe. I could cook it. But being a leader, I need to see more leaders operate. And that's just what I did. I took a step back in order to take a giant leap forward. Yeah, yeah, you got to figure out, like, there's at the end of the day, like, your thing is predicated on people.

How do people act in these situations? You got to, it's like, you have to understand the terrain, you have to understand the psychology, you have to understand your own limitations, and you wanna learn all that stuff before you have too much money on the line. And I've got to imagine too, it also opens up from that understanding comes new opportunities and ideas.

What's the Philly restaurant you have? I imagine that came from your understanding of some things that were overlooked in the sort of higher end cuisine space. And you were able to come up with a concept that could take advantage of stuff that if you hadn't been on the journey you were on, you never could have conceived of doing things the way that you're doing them there. Yeah, for sure. You know, that came out of the need for like a fast casual that was doing, you know, high

and Philly cheese steaks, which just wasn't there. Yeah. You know, we created systems and, you know, set it up like super beautiful and super streamlined and, you know, got a partner in Whole Foods to put the first location in. So, yeah, you know, it was for something that, especially also looking at my market like in the city,

there wasn't many places to get cheese steaks in Washington, D.C. Yeah. So, I think it's a combination of many things, but the execution of it was definitely a combination of my professional experience and seeing many different kitchens operate. Even McDonald's, you know, I worked that my first job working at McDonald's. So yeah, getting all that in there on this small little assembly line was pretty fun.

That comes back to this humility, right? So I got to imagine like Danny Meyer, when he decides to work on Shake Shack, if he had just gone in there, he's like, I'm the greatest restaurant to wherever I've had all this success. Look at I know food, et cetera. If he had brought that kind of arrogance or ego into that tiny little spot in Madison Square Park, he wouldn't have been able to make it work. You have to come with your knowledge and confidence and a kind of openness and a flexibility that says, I'm now operating in a new space,

in a new industry, in a new style, and I'm gonna have to apply what I've learned, but I'm also gonna have to let the reality of this space inform how I do what I've learned, but I'm also going to have to let the reality of this space inform how I do what I do. Absolutely. Absolutely. You have to meet your customers' needs and sometimes take yourself out of it because if Danny Meyer had just applied all the fine dining stuff to that, we would never have

shit-checked because no one could afford it. It would be so much labor costs, but there were ways to that, we would never have shit-check. Because no one could afford it. It would be so much labor costs, but there were ways to like, okay, I can get frozen crinkle fries, you know? I'm gonna use Martin's potato buns. I'm not gonna make everything from scratch. I'm gonna use really great patlet free to meet. And that's what I think is really, really important.

It's to sometimes take yourself out of it and understand what do your customers want and what are they not gonna give a damn if you're making ketchup from scratch? Yeah. And if you're able to really, really mass produce this thing. And it took time for me to really realize that in my career, but I'm very happy I'm there now. Well, yeah, I imagine it's also like, look, when you're used to designing your space exactly

as you want and having all the tools that you want. And then suddenly you're like, I'm using a fucking griddle or a grill in a stand in a park. Like what? What can I make out of these sets of constraints? Like your raw materials are constrained. That doesn't mean that it can't be great, but you have to be realistic and you have to decide what are the most important things to me within the constraints.

And that's kind of what the ethos of the cooking shows to, right? Where it's like, here are the five things, make something you have to go, well, what's the most important thing to me here? What am I really focused on? Because you can't do everything. No. And what's going to make this thing sing and not overshadow the entire dish? Like how are these things going to work cohesively together? Yeah. With one still

maybe being the star, but still you're getting all the elements of the other dish of the other ingredients. So, so yeah, yeah, that's a good analogy to the cooking show. As you think about, we were talking about egos and dicks recently earlier with the sort of, the sort of like zero sum characters that think like somebody else's success comes at their expense, is that the norm in the industry or do you find that the best people are actually collaborators? You mentioned a mentee earlier. I've found what I've really liked about my space is fundamentally authors realize that they're not competing with each other.

Like somebody reading this book doesn't mean they're not going to read your book. Like we're all fighting against people not reading. So we're actually all in the same team, even though we're our own little islands, have you found that it's a cutthroat industry or that actually people help each other? Um, I can be both, honestly. You can definitely be both. I think if someone just inherently doesn't like you, they're not going to help you at all. Sure. Um, and I think that there are people, if you like them doesn't like you, they're not going to help you at all. Sure.

And I think that there are people if you like them, you know, then you're going to get looked out for. I think all in all, I've seen it more as collaborative, but in different markets and with different connections, like sharing pervaders and sharing, you know, where you're getting your plates. And if a cook comes to me, these work for you and I call you,

can tell me about them, right? So no, I mean, I think it's definitely, it's better when it's collaborative, even with the microcosm of like one single kitchen, when different people are putting things on the menu. When you're getting feedback on different things, to make a dish better, I think it makes for an actual family,

and it makes people care about it more than just this restaurant job. They just want to see this thing succeed because they have a part in it. Yeah, and even if it's not a general rule in the industry, it's a better way to operate as a human being. Because when I see those people who are like, they feel like they're locked in this life-or-death struggle with everyone, they're paranoid, they tickings personally.

I'm like, nobody's having less fun than that person, even if they're super successful. Exactly. It doesn't make it worth it when it's all you. It should be a team effort. And it makes the soul of the restaurant so much better. And people can feel that when a restaurant is so cohesive and people are taking pride in things,

it just makes for a better dining experience and it makes for a better working experience. How do you think about that with the people that work for you? Because I've got to imagine most of the people that work for you are, especially in the kitchen at least, are exactly like you, which is that this is a stop on a journey that they're on, which is to eventually be where you are.

Not that everyone can do it, but it's an interesting thing where like I, it's like the writers that end up working for me. It's like, I know you don't want to work for me for 20 years. And if you do work for me for 20 years, we both screwed up, you know what I mean? Because you want to be able to do your own thing someday. Exactly. I think there's, it's hard to say how other people feel.

I don't know exactly how they feel about that. But I do think that they are there to learn. So while they're with me, they're trying to soak everything that they can as possible and then move on to the next thing. But I just would hope that they give their all while they're here. Because I'm giving everything I got, right? And you probably feel the same way when you have

someone writing for you, like, you're not holding back anything and not holding any stops. You're not. There's no secret documents of everything. We're just trying to get shit done. So, so yeah, I mean, I've seen people that have worked for me go on to do like some really amazing things. And, and sometimes cooked the food that I was cooking even better. You know, they were taking, they're going to be able to take it and interpret it and put their life spin on it and put their influence on it and their culture, which I think is why we do this. Like, yes, we were a business, so there's a monetary standpoint and why we're doing something, but ultimately it's for inspiration, and it's to leave the world a little bit better than how we found it.

So I love when people come and then leave, and then, you know, and I see them shining, and I can still see some elements of like, what they learn from me in it. It's how you leave a legacy, you know, and that's why I do what I do. Yeah, I mean, I think that's even clear in the book. Like, you're a product of your influences,

the different kitchens you've worked at, the mentors you had, the teachers you had, the lady who served you curry at her apartment, like, you were all a product of the people who were nice to us or opened doors for us or shared things with us. And in a way, that's a reflection back on them too, right? Like in sports, they talk about like the coaching tree.

Like the great coaches also, they produce not just wins, but also coaches who go out and win. Mm-hmm. When they get their own shot. Yeah. And we've seen it. You know, we've seen it with Steve Kerr. Yeah. You know, you've seen it with Pat Riley.

You know, you see that. You see that. And it's the same thing in the restaurant industry. You know, we produce good cooks, we also produce good other restaurants, and other chefs, and other food writers, and things like that. Yeah. And I think that's why it's like, if we're aware that what people are after, right? And then we show that like, hey, I'm not trying to hold you back.

I want that. I want what you want for yourself, whatever that is. Then it creates a culture of honestly. Like I was just talking to someone, I was thinking about this was someone who works for me, whereas like, how do you have a discussion about whether they're ready or not, right? And so when I'm saying you're not ready, I'm not saying this because I'm threatened or I'm selfish or I'm trying to hold you back.

I'm saying I genuinely don't think you're ready, but I promise you when you're ready, I will, I will don't think you're ready, but I promise you when you're ready, I will, I will give you all the blessing. And I had this, the mentor I was telling me about Robert Green. Like I got my first offer to do a book and he was like, I don't think you're ready. And he had, we had the trust where I knew he wouldn't have been saying that out of a place of ego or greed or being threatened. He really meant it.

And I think my career shifted because I listened to that advice. But if he had been a dick to me or if he had tried to hold me back previously, then I wouldn't have been in a place to listen to that feedback. And you didn't write, you didn't do the book. I waited and I ended up doing it several years later when I was in fact, Reddit. Oh wow. He was right. Yeah, I don't know.

I feel, I feel that there's no body that can tell me that I'm ready to do something. And I don't feel that I have the power to know what's going to happen. Because there's been a young people that have done amazing things that literally weren't ready, but there was a spark that just happened, you know, and shit just worked out.

Sure, people that said, I'm gonna wait to do something and then they die five years later before they can get that shit done. So like, that's when it comes down to, for me, like we're not on the operating table. Yeah, go write the book, see what happens. Then you'll write another book, you know,

it's not gonna stain your resume for already writing a book. It may actually look better that you did something and are you already went through that process? So like when people come to me and ask me, like I'll give feedback and say like, I think you may need to like learn a little bit more before you go out in the world and do that, but I'm not the one to tell you what you should and should not be doing.

I don't know what your financial situation is. I don't know like they're the take care of somebody. You know, I think there's so many factors into telling someone that they're ready. Unless, like you said, this is someone that you've worked with for so long, right? And that's like a mentor to you. So if my mentee came to me and said, I'm going to open up a restaurant tomorrow, I would probably tell him, you're not ready. Yeah, right.

You know, yes. So yeah, I think that there's that balance of the like, just go out. So clearly you're ready that someone that's interested in doing this shit with you, that people my age and they're not even asking to do that stuff with it. Right? So there's that way of looking at it too. But I hear you though. It's hard.

You have to cultivate a lot of trust, but you, and it's not that you're not ready. It's that you could be more ready, you know, if you achieve the following things. And it's hard because, yeah, sometimes you can get lucky and sometimes you can get very unlucky. And so it's no, there's no guarantee either way, but I think you want to create a culture inside an organization, I feel like. People can take to the bank that you want them to be successful on any terms and not just inside your organization, right?

That's the worst where the chef or the chef or the business, whatever it is where the person's like clearly like, I only care about you if you are making me money or helping me do what I do. Yeah, yeah, that's not that's not being a good human being. Yeah, that's the day. And I don't think that that's good for for any business or any relationship. And so last question, obviously you bumped into my book in the airport. What are what are some other books that have been

into my book in the airport. What are some other books that had been formative for you? What I liked about your book, I did a book a couple years ago with Chris Bosch called Letters to a Young Asleep. I feel like there's not enough good books out there for young people who have potential and have ambition, where someone kind of lays it out.

They're like, this is how I did it. This is when I learned, words and all, right? Because this one doesn't end with like you crushing it, right? It ends you coming out of that first restaurant, not succeeding the way you wanted, but also not giving up. Mm-hmm. But another book for me is the,

is it called The Surrender Experiment? Oh, okay. Yeah, we check this out. Yes, Surrendering to Life. It's about the person who digitized, I think medical records or medical insurance, I forget what he did, but he just wanted to meditate in, he was a hippie in the 60s and just wanted to meditate in the forest with his shoes off.

And he kept like running into things that were guiding him and he just surrendered and surrendered and surrendered. And I think he ended up becoming a billionaire from that. And he was never, that was never his goal. He wasn't trying to do any of that. And it shows of just like surrendering to the game of life, surrendering to life and the power of saying yes, and how that could change your life.

And also saying no when it goes against your values, but just the surrender experiment. So, yeah. But, have you always been a big reader? I know you're a dropout like me. Well, not technically a dropout, but let's just say you didn't graduate like me. Gradually.

Yeah, I've always been a big reader. In school, they made us read a ton of books. So I would say less so now. Really? But I was younger. I was reading a lot. Yeah. Why don't you read much now?

It's so busy. Yeah, I'm just so busy. Yeah. You don't do audio books? No, no, I like to hold the paper. Did you? Yeah. Well, man, this was been awesome. I really appreciate it. I loved the book and I look forward to eating at one of your places, one of these days. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the inspiration. Appreciate it. Likewise, likewise. Thank you so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us

and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.