The Daily Stoic - Chris Bosh, Les Snead, Scott Oberg, Bob Bowman, and Dominique Dawes on Sports and Stoicism

Episode Date: July 13, 2022

Today’s episode features some of the best interviews on Sports and Stoicism from the podcast. Ryan talks to NBA star Chris Bosh about his book Letters to a Young Athlete and the importance of putting everything into what you do even when it’s tough, Los Angeles Rams GM Les Snead about making tough decisions under intense pressure, MLB Pitcher Scott Oberg about how Stoicism has helped Scott overcome physical and mental adversity, Olympic swimming coach Bob Bowman about how athletes can maintain stillness while still performing at a high level of excellence, Dominique Dawes about the most important moments that an athlete experiences.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace in wisdom in their actual lives.

But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to Business Wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stoke Podcast. The unexpected strange surreal perk of writing these books about ancient philosophy has been their resonance in professional athletics, not something I expected, not something I anticipated, but as

a sports fan, as a, you know, amateur endurance athlete myself, it's just been a total joy. And I think the Stoic sort of appreciated that. And Mark Serrelius clearly was familiar with boxing and wrestling, Hepatitis as well. Cricippus was a runner. Clientes was himself a boxer. So I think This was a runner. Clientys was himself a boxer. So I think the sports world and the Stoic world was in the ancient world, much more intertwined than we would associate philosophy and physical activity today. And it's just been so awesome to see athletes with this sort of philosophical practice. But I also just love talking to people who are best in the world at what they do, how

they think about craft, how they think about ambition, how they think about balance, how they think about winning and losing. These are just things I love talking about. Talked to a lot of athletes this year and last year. And so in today's compilation interview, we've got some awesome interviews. We're going to be talking to Chris Bosch, two-time NBA champion, 11-time All-Star Olympic gold medalist on the pursuit of greatness.

We're talking about Los Angeles, Rams, GM, less need about keeping the main thing, the main thing. We're going to be talking to Major League Baseball pitcher Scott Oberg on overcoming adversity, which he has had to experience

in a very difficult career. It's been ravaged by injuries as of late. We're gonna talk to Swimming Coach Bob Bowman, the guy behind Michael Phelps, on balancing stillness and excellence. And then I was also lucky enough to talk to USA Olympic gold medalist Dominique Dawes. Finally, we have NASCAR champion Brad Keselowski

on reaching your maximum potential. And here is my interview with Chris Bosch. If you haven't read the book that he and I collaborated on letters to a young athlete, you can click that in the links below. To me, the definition of stoicism is that you don't control what happens, you control how you respond. And that's what you have to do as an athlete,

that's what you have to do as a parent, that's what you had to do the last year in the pandemic, which is like, how do I figure out how to make the best of it? Because you can't quit. Uh, quitting is not an option. I, that, that, that's one of the, sayings I like to say is that, you know, failure is not an option. That's one of the sayings I like to say is that failure is not trying. Not even trying, just saying, whatever excuse you give yourself not to try.

Every anything you go after, you're going to take some lunch. You're going to take some punches. You're going to get knocked down. And I didn't understand that, at least for me until, losing in Dallas in 2011, which was crazy, it's 10 years ago almost to the date. I watch Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant every year, they make it to the finals all the time and they win.

So when you get to a point where, you know, you think you have some immunity because of whatever accolades you've racked up in the past or because your professional basketball player on this level, when we lost, it really clicked in for me and just said, wow, okay, because sure I was dealing thing with things off the court as a person. You feel that's not fair. And then all these other things are happening and that's not fair.

At least we could win, right? This dumb championship, and we lose it. And it's like, ah! How devastating is that? It's like the loss in the family. It's like it's a sudden loss. And especially when you put yourself, you put yourself in the state of mind

of visualizing yourself doing it from months and months. And then for me, it was especially tough. It's my hometown team. We're playing the Mavericks. I'm watching my ex-class mates wear Mavericks jerseys and shirts. They didn't watch that stuff. They didn't know we had mates wear Maverick's jerseys and shirts. They didn't watch that stuff.

Nobody wore Maverick's stuff back in the day. Now everybody's rocking the championship gear. It was devastating, but it made me realize how I understood right away of Jason Kid, Derrick Navinsky, Jason Terry, those guys went through pain, losing back in 2006. Jason kid back in 2003. And again in 2004, you know, it's just, or in 2001, 2002. But imagine how devastated Jason Terry would have been because you got that tattoo. Remember, you got the, in advance. Hey, man, hey, but you know, and I learned something from that too. I remember that because I remember looking at it like, oh, but you know, and I learned something that too, I remember that because I

remember looking at it like, oh, these guys think they are. Hey man, you got to get a tattoo on you sometimes. It's like failure is not an option. And understanding that I understood after pretty much just coming up short and kind of having that pie in the face moment and knowing that I have to rebuild from that. And hopefully, hopefully get back to that level the next year, but accept whatever consequence comes. Yeah, I was talking to Manage Noblee and he was telling me that the pivotal moment for him was going up for that rebound with you. He said he told me that he should have found you is what he said. But he was saying, you know, so he goes up for

that, you know, they end up losing the series and he comes home and he's like, I've never been more unhappy in my life. And what he was lost. Yeah, never lost. And what he was saying though, is what struck him was he was like, I'm living my dream. I'm one of the best people in the world at what I do. I gave my absolute best. If I'm not having fun and joy in myself while I'm doing it, like I'm gonna regret it forever.

So did you come out of losing with a better appreciation for the game and for when like you quote, kippling in the book, you know, like to treat winning and losing as the same imposter. You know, were you able to come out of that a little bit closer? After the loss. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I hate the term losing Bill's character, but it kind of does. You just don't want to make it a habit. No, you just don't want to make it a habit. But having those, yeah, show me that show me a good loser.

And I'll show you a loser. You know what I mean? So just like in that context, you think about the things that you could have done better. You think about maybe that day off where you're like, ah, let me just kind of close today or that moment, even if it was just for a minute that you kind of lost focus in in in in what you do. And that time where you say, man, I should have been having a little more. I should have been enjoying myself a little more because we lost anyway. Yeah. You know, at least we could have had a good time. You know, there's a fine balance in both.

And and I think for me, my like my personal journey with that was just understanding that it could happen to you. Understanding that, just because of the level your ad doesn't make you impervious to these things, you're human. You're going to have to go through this process. And sometimes you're just going to get beat up. What are you gonna, like you say, how are you going to react?

How are you going to be the one to challenge the way that you think in getting better after this? Are you gonna get better? Are you just gonna kind of sit around and complain? Because after a while, that's only gonna get you so far. Eventually, which for most of us was right away, but like, you know, I got back on the horse and got to a point to say, man,

I'm not going to let it beat me next time. Because there's some ego in it too, right? There's this quote I love. It's the first sign of an impending nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important. And it's like, what you do is important. I like, I care so much about my books, but then, you know, like,

one of the things that's great about having kids is like, they don't care at all. You know, like, it's nothing to them. It's a, you might as well be in insurance sales, right? You know, and it helps put it in perspective, which is that it's important and excellence is important. And as you said, you don't want to make losing a habit. At the same time, if you think that it's a matter of life

and death, it's probably actually a bad strategy over the long term. Yeah, you don't want to, like fight or flight is there for a reason, right? You want to fight or flight. If you're having those feelings and you're not fighting or flighting, I don't understand, you know, and it's especially for your putting. Sometimes you can't help it. Yeah. You're going to have your reaction. If you're

putting in, like you say, those life or death situations I've known, people, and I've done that for myself as well. Yeah. Life or death, this game is, you know, sometimes you use it to kind of psych yourself out, but yeah, after a while, you've got to be loose. You know, you have to have a flow of things, you have to, you just can't be rigid. That was one of the things I learned playing the game too. In losing that series against Dallas, we were just so uptight. Oh my gosh, man, just too tight. Nothing was loose. You know, we weren't trusting the work

that we had put in up until that point. And we were just kind of beside ourselves a little bit and not concentrating on playing. We were concentrating on mistakes or making it life or death. Or saying, oh my god, we're lost again. OK, we got to win the next one then. Goalph is a good metaphor, I think,

and that, you know, like the harder you try, the worse you are at it. Like you still have to be good. You still have to train, you know, you still have to know your fundamentals, but like in Buddhism they talk about willful will. You have too much willful will. If you're trying to force it too much,

that's when you, and you mentioned sort of tight loose. That's what a trainer wants you to be. They want you to be loose. If you're tight, that's when you hurt yourself. For sure, that's when you hurt yourself. That's when you start pulling stuff. And in plan for different coaches,

the greater coaches, they emphasize being loose. As a team, you might do something. Instead of practice today, let's watch a movie. Yeah. You know, let's watch he got game or something like that, you know, and then let's discuss it or let's do things to make sure that we're loose, we're good. Let's not be in this tension of life or death for the whole time, because you know, we're human beings, we pick up on those things pretty good. And if it's like that collectively as a group, if everybody's tight, then you know,

it's really not gonna work. I think that's like, for instance, the unfair advantage that Tom Brady has, right? He's been there so many times. He can be like, and when you watch him when he's up against, you know, like a Jared Goff, who's the first time he's been in the Super Bowl, like by definition, who's Lucer, the guy who's been there

like a dozen times, you know, the guy who's not only been in the Super Bowl, but been down by 25 points in the Super Bowl, you can be chill because you're like, and we talk, you and I've talked about this where it's like the difference between ego and confidence, confidence is loose. Ego's like, my identity's riding on this, everything, but confidence is like, we've been here before. Yeah, hey, I've been here before. Remember that time we discussed if we're down 25 and half time. Yeah. This now is a time to implement those things.

Good thing that we've talked about this because these are the packages we need to run. Yes. And I mean, even if I'm in Jared Golf situation, being a young quarterback, getting to the Super Bowl, you know, golf, Tom Brady. Oh my goodness, you can get into all that stuff. I found that game fascinating because Tom knew,

like, okay, we're just gonna grind these guys into the ground. We're gonna make it close because I know they're a little tight. If it's a third and four and they're down three, they're gonna feel a little bit different because they're used to their offense running at a certain level.

And if it's not running at that level, you know, they're going to fill it a little bit. So, you know, it's just kind of, you got to train, man. You have to, you have to identify what those things that, you know, first, what you want to do and then work backwards from there and say, okay, hey, I want to be a really good basketball player or we want to, win a championship as this team. All right, cool, these are the things that we need to do. We've gotta communicate good. We've gotta make sure we're practicing

and putting the work in every day. And we have to make sure that we're together and we know our stuff. So when it hits the fan because it will, and you know, we don't still until we stay together, you know, and make sure we're, you know, doing the things that we always practice. And here's me talking to Los Angeles Rams,

GM Les Sneed. So when I came out and talked to you guys, I guess it was two years ago now or three, I forget. But one of the things you would showed me that was sort of in the Rams' cultural values was keep the main thing, the main thing. What does that mean and how do you guys sort of actually apply that?

So really simply, I think what I would say, let's call it the, let's call one, the one variable that are the first variable is, all right, we have, we have an organization made up of those individuals are leading other experts in their realm or that group's expertise. And some of the people in those groups are trying to become experts and may have other roles that help the experts. But so number one would be the first variable was, if we all come into the building and try to help the Rams improve it football, whatever your job description is, spend our energy

there, right? So, what that leads to, what we're hoping is, right, some version of some compound interest, a Jim Collins flywheel effect, a snowball effect where, right, we just keep rolling the snow and the ball gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and it's because we're focused on that snowball, right? So that's number one.

The other two is I think it can cut down on some of the people interaction, collaboration, drama, in terms of that I do that I think hinders production is a way to, that's not the main thing, right? Whether, whether, one person likes this color and the other person likes that color, one person voted for this politician, the other. Okay, that's not the main thing here. Let's get back to making rounds football better.

So that's probably the, and I can't go this and you're going to ask a question in the entertainment business because our product is really, we really creating it for the public. The neat thing is what keeps it's called entertainment rolling and professional sports rolling is maybe the drama that takes place in between the games. There is an element right of there's going to be a lot of noise on the outside. Critics what have you ideas and but let's not that's not the main thing that the main thing is to create a part to the our fans can discuss it whether they thumbs up or thumbs down it that's we have to stay focused on the main thing and the main thing is

when it makes the ramps football well it's really I think it's not necessarily winning that would be the result I think what we can control is dominating our role and trying to make ramps football better role in trying to make Rams football better. And that's a little bit easier to control. It's a little bit easier to build a task list and hey, let's go win again. What we're hoping Ryan is, all of that combines that on Sunday, when the clock, you know, runs out and there's zero, zero, zeroes on the clock, you you know we have more points than the other team but So does it is it like that the organization has the main thing of like get better at football and then does each

Subsequent person have their own main thing like the gym as a main thing the coach as a main thing the running back has a main thing The janitor has a main thing and that's sort of where the the Bellicic idea of like just do your job comes in Do your job Be clear and concise on what that job is right and Stealing a little bit from from James clear and some of his habit journal stuff right that and he talks about the 80-20 rule Right it. Yeah, it is making sure everyone in the building has those one to two to three four things that they can dominate. They actually can manage enough time and intensely focus on that and dominate. And again, that gets back to your first

question now, right? Everyone has a specific role. They know that role. They understand that role. That should allow them to not have to be at the opposite 4 a.m. and leave it 11 and it can also help individuals determine, wait a minute, this isn't a role that truly fulfills me, so maybe I better go look somewhere else. Right. It must be weird for the GM because you have so much control but then you also have so little control. Like you can assemble the players, you can negotiate their contracts, you can set up incentives but at the end of the day like you can't actually throw or catch the football for them and you can't decide what plays get called. So is that is that a challenge to like how do you

how does each person in the organization stay in their lane? That is the humbling part of sports. Probably a humbling part of a lot of life. But it is, it is maybe the more fulfilling part of sports is right where there is a collection of humans and we're just collaborating to compete, right? We're collaborating not necessarily to be the best GM or be the best offensive line coach or be the best athletic trainer or be the best team chaplain or be the best team psychologist.

We're all collectively collaborating for the Rams to be greater. And that whole Rams is greater than all of us. So both humbling and frustrating. And a humble, yeah, humbling, frustrating and fulfilling at the same time. I remember when you go as the enemy, there was this exchange between John Snyder and Pete Carroll. Someone was asking them, they said, you know, how have you guys worked together for so long? Most GMs and coaches are not, don't have long-term collaborative relationships.

It tends to be short-term or collaborative or worse. They hate each other. And John Snyder said something like, you go as the enemy, meaning that the two of them were able to collaborate because they took ego out of it, is how does that relationship work, not just between you and Sean, but how does it work generally?

Because I imagine there is some jockeying for power and control, but the only way you're both gonna be successful is if you're able to collaborate with each other. Yes, and going back to the main thing and the main thing, main thing, keep the main thing the main thing. If you're main thing as a general manager head coach is to, right, gain more power control within your organization that doesn't necessarily help you on Sundays.

Now, maybe the reason one of the two is trying because they actually think that, but the energy spent trying to gain that extra power control probably somewhere along the way dilutes what they're really experts at. And then going back to that right, both for general manager, head coach, and anyone in this building, right, we probably have different superpowers, different expertise, and there's an element right where you definitely have to respect and then trust

that the other can do, you know, and be useful and dominate their responsibility. So I think that is very key. And that's what really works between Sean and myself is he really wants to coach football and I would not be any good at coaching football. And he doesn't wanna do my job. Right.

He might be good at my job, but he doesn't want to do it. And I think we both write that, allowing each other to do their job. That allows us to really focus on what we're experts at. And at the end of the day, that truly helps when we do sit down to solve problems, overcome obstacles collectively, collaboratively, right, to figure out the best solution or the better innovation and things like that. To live your healthiest, longest life possible, you need to understand what's going on inside your body. People age at different speeds and generic annual blood work does not properly evaluate

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biological age and see how your age in from the inside out. For a limited time, get 20% off the entire inside tracker store. Just go to inside tracker.com slash stoic. That's inside tracker.com slash stoic. at www.sidetracker.com slash Stoic. Asking for help doesn't mean there's something wrong with you. It means you're human. And I would actually say that the weaker thing is not asking for help. Mark's really says, so what if you have to ask a comrade to help pull you up, that's what we're here for.

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and show your support for the show. That's STOIC at talkspace.com. And here's me talking to Major League Baseball pitcher Scott Hobberg. I find when I'm going through crap or I'm really sort of difficult, I'm consumed picture at Scott Hobberg. I find when I'm going through crap, or I'm really sort of difficult, I'm consumed with my own thoughts, or anxiety, or frustrations, or troubles, when you focus on somebody else,

not only do you forget about your problems for a while, but you may end up opening up a new door or opportunity, or way of thinking about your own problems. That does in fact help you. Yeah, I think so. I think in around about way, I think it does, you know, kind of ease the suffering a little bit. And, you know, I've heard this before too, you know, the best way to, the best way to make sure that you understand certain material, your certain principles or foundations or whatever it may be is to

be able to articulate it to somebody else so that they can understand what it is that you're talking about. And I've finally, so I've been in the past. I've always been intentional about trying to teach even younger kids You know, get pitching lessons or whatnot and hearing myself say the things that I believe in kind of reinforces Why I believe them or why I think that they're important Yes, that's right. Well, Seneca says you know, we learn as we teach which I think is true but I also find, you know, when I was writing the obstacles away, I looked at this set of studies about lead athletes.

I think they're in Canada. They were talking about post-traumatic growth versus post-traumatic injury or disorder, right? And they were saying that oftentimes, the athlete may come back from the injury weaker in some way because they blew out their knee or they don't have quite the same mobility or whatever it is they put on weight. But they're better because they've spent that time

studying the game, they understand, they're rolling the game, they appreciate their teammates, more maybe they're more connected to it. Like, I got to imagine, let's say you come back at 100% in a year, next season, not only did you help your teammates through, you know, you contributed to your teammates, but the team will be,

you will be coming back to a stronger team where the players are more connected with each other because of this period. And so again, that's the idea of the obstacle being the way. Sure. Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I think, you know, you just said like, and I'm very, to me like, you know, when you mention appreciation, you know,

I think that that's one of the things that, when the game or, you know or when life kind of puts you on the sidelines for a little bit, the things that you were really involved in, the things that you really enjoy doing, when you can't do them anymore, you kind of have that greater appreciation because now you can see it from a bird's eye view or from the sidelines or whatever metaphor you want to look into it. But you really get that deep appreciation for how much you enjoy it, how much you see other people's

being successful at it. And I think that there's like an inner drive too to be especially at times where I've had to go through some sort of a rehab process, whether it was with surgeries or whatever it else is. You have to gain take away from you for a small period of time and I'm watching it on TV, I'm watching the dugout or what have you. And it motivates me to want to get back out there.

So the things that I'm going to do with the training staff or physical therapists or whatever may be, you know, like you said, there might be some physical atrophy in the muscles, but you know, mentally, I might be stronger, I might be better because I know I've gone through the process and I've gone through all the steps to get back to ultimately where I want to get to. And I think that's where that appreciation comes comes in and that's where it becomes maybe a little bit more digestible to overcome those obstacles on a daily basis when, like we were saying earlier, you know, sometimes you just don't feel like doing it. Yeah. Yeah, so in stillness is the key. I was probably my book I talked the most about baseball,

but I was referencing this idea, which I'm sure you've heard a million times, that hitting a pitch in baseball is the hardest act in professional sports. But the reason it's hard is because guys like you are on the other side, right? You're trying to make it hard. I was curious, you're talking about pictures or throwers.

Have you seen your arc as you've gone on, trying to make it hard. And I'm curious, you're talking about pictures or throwers. Have you seen your arc as you've gone on, as you've gotten older dealt with these physical things that you've had to get more strategic, more clever, play the psychological game as a picture? Is that sort of how you've seen yourself developing? Yeah, without a doubt. It's even just on the baseball side outside of the medical. You know it's been its own transition,

its own transformation where you know younger in my career, you know I kind of I sped through the minor leagues a little bit quicker than what is the norm I guess. I think I was up there within three years of being drafted, especially for somebody that wasn't a very particularly high draft pick. It kind of breaks the norm a little bit. And so I got up there and I was throwing very hard, but my command wasn't great.

My Ospy pitches, they had great movement to it, but they weren't very effective because they weren't landing in the spots that it needed to get to. And the first four years of my career, I was bouncing back and forth between AAA and the big lead level, because I wasn't throwing enough strikes.

I was walking too many batters. The Scouting Report was, hey, this guy's probably gonna throw four balls before he throws three strikes, so wait a minute a little bit. And then the times where I would fall behind an account, now I have to be back in the zone, and that's where the damage we get done.

I give up a lot of doubles, a lot of home runs. And you go through those drawing pains as an athlete on the field. And now it was really like the first major time, extended period of time where I really failed athletically. So that's kind of almost like a tone unique shock to the system, you know, because I think as athletes, especially guys that get to the levels they get to, you know, more times or not, they're kind of, they're not really as challenged as much as they probably could be until they get to the top level. And at that point, you know, sometimes you have

to take a look at the mirror and maybe change some things around. So I ended up dropping some pitches that had made me successful over the years. You know, I had been a two-seam fastball and a curveball type of picture when I got up to the big leagues. And then what ended up making me successful was a four-seam fastball and I slidered. So it was almost as if I'm two different pictures. I mean, even the times where I would watch video for myself on myself, I would almost disregard my first couple of years

because it's like watching completely different person, completely different picture. I'm not going to be able to learn anything from that picture at least within the game itself, from a standpoint like that, where if I'm trying to pick something up or how should I attack certain hitters, the person that I was, the picture that I was in 2018, 2019 was vastly different from the picture I was in 2015, 2016, where I was throwing hard, but I had no clue where it was going. I was a thrower, so thrower, so to speak. And, you know, I had to learn how to be a pitcher

in, in AAA. And the last time that I got, I got sent back down was in 2018. You know, I had come off a playoff experience in 2017. I thought I had kind of riding the ship a little bit and I opened up the season in April. And I was not very good. So I had to go back down to Albuquerque and readjust some things. But when I came back up I had made all of the right

adjustments I had really put all my focus into what it was that I was trying to do because I knew I had the stuff, I had the movement of the pitches. I had you know, similarly velocity on my fastball. And at that point it was just a matter of really tightening everything up, narrowing the focus, getting to a point where I can be consistent with the locations of my pitches. And I think you see, I think the difference between the pictures and the thrillers or that the pictures can really command the fastball on both sides of the play pretty much whenever they want to and you know

we were talking about Littroy Hawkins earlier and I mean one of the first things I ever asked them was I said Hawk what was you know what's made you successful? Why you know what is it about you? That has been able to play 18, 19, 20 years at the major league level, not just professional baseball. Right. And he's like one, he's like, you got to, he's like, your body's a race car and you got to feel it like one. And number two, he's like, he took a home play and he took both of his hands and he just kind of went back and forth on the corners. And he's like, you got to live on the corners in the sleek. What does that mean?

He's like, basically, you got to put the fastball on both sides of the plate. You got to be able to throw on the corners. He's like, you can't catch too much of the plate. Interesting. So he was really able to just go in and out left on both sides of the plate, lefties and righties, put his fastball really where he wanted to. And it took a little bit of time to figure that out and to get that. But once it did, it clicked.

And, you know, I went from a guy that was probably, you know, one of the worst relievers in the league to now I'm right up there with some of the best relievers in the league. And to me, it was just, you know, really establishing the fastball command and learning how to pitch. Here's me talking to Bob Bowman. In a way that that requires, like, clearly you don't, you're not Michael Phelps or Katie Ladekier or Simone Manuel without an incredible amount of self-discipline. Or Tiger Woods or Michael Jordan or whomever. But it's almost as if the highest level of self-discipline is how do you discipline your self-discipline? Right? Like how do you say, just because this is the direction trajectory we're going, doesn't mean we're going to continue. We're actually going to stop. We're going to scale back. We're

going to pivot slightly. We're going to do this intentionally, as opposed to just can, you know, letting the momentum and the expectations of everyone else determine what and how we do things. Exactly. And after we did get to that point, it just took two years. And by the time we did that, that affected his London performances for sure, although I thought he did a credible job based on kind of how he had prepared But what I decided I'll tell you how I got to that how it we got out of it was I was at a breaking point too Like you know Michael was doing things like not coming to practice for two weeks Yeah, he never missed a practice in 12 years, right?

Yeah. It was like, okay. And that was sort of our hallmark, right? We're here, we're invested, we're doing all this stuff, nobody else is doing, and that's what makes us great. So instead of kind of, you know, understanding what he was going through, I just doubled down on the, you know, you're throwing your career away, you're letting everybody, you know, I what he was going through. I just doubled down on the, you know, you're throwing your career away, you're letting everybody, you know, I did everything you could do that was stupid in that part. And finally, our agent, Peter Carlisle, who's such a tremendous resource for both of us.

I was talking with him about it. I was frustrated, Michael wasn't coming to practice and he wasn't gonna be able to do this And this meat was coming up and we needed to do this But we didn't do it so it was might as well just not even go and all this kind of stuff And he said two things is like I'm going to give you a book at cartolley the power of now and he sent it to me and I and he sent it to me. And I would suggest that in this circumstance, how about we just let

everything go except for when Michael comes in to practice, you give him the best practice you can give him on that day and leave it at that, you know, be present, right? Yeah. Focus on the present, not what didn't happen, not what's going to happen. And when I started doing that, the practices weren't too bad. And he kept coming back. So that's kind of how we got out of it. But it just, and of course I read the power now, I've probably read it seven or eight times now. And that really changed my outlook on how to deal with a lot of things, not only just in swimming, but in my life. And I just think that was a very powerful learning thing for both of us.

And Michael's read that book a couple of times now. We both sort of rely on it. Well, that strikes me as a very sort of Phil Jackson approach of like this sort of jujitsu Zen approach to like, don't try to force it, you're not gonna get this from a top-down way. How do you sort of strip things down to their essence? Think about what this specific person needs in this specific instance,

and that usually letting go and being present gets you there better than force or as they say, sort of will-full-will. Exactly. And, you know, I think when I started coaching, better than force or as they say, sort of willful will. Exactly. And, you know, I think when I started coaching, just because of the coaches that coached me and kind of the environment of sports,

when I was, you know, in the 80s, when I was kind of really doing it, I got into it and it's the classic example of, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Yes. And you get very good results with that quickly, right? But what you find is over time, you just, oh, you just create so many more problems than you

solve by doing that. And you kind of hope that you'll get the result at the end of the season and everybody's kind of bought in again to do it again and then you kind of double down on the, I can be, make you do this, right? But that's just no way to have sustained success. It's not a really way to teach people what to do. And I feel like as a coach that is my biggest growth area is that I've gotten away from that kind of what the coach says goes, and you do this too. Here's what we're gonna do. Here's our plan, buy into it. I'll push you for sure.

And I'll let you know if you're not kind of doing what you said you wanted to do, but I just feel like the whole mindset of what we do is different now, and that's a very good thing. Yeah, that was what was, I think, most striking to me and I think most missed about what Simone Biles did during the Olympics was, it wasn't even a coach,

it was she noticed it in herself that she wasn't where she needed to be and she had the discipline and I would, I would say the courage and the confidence to be like, no, this isn't right. I'm going to adjust in the following way when there must have been, I mean, you just think of the financial pressure, the cultural pressure, the teammate pressure, the coach pressure, all of that pressure she was able to somehow have the self-awareness and the sense of self to make a decision that clearly must have violated

all every core of the athlete's commitment to the game as well. Exactly. It was an amazing thing to just witness and see how it took place over the period of those games. And I was very impressed with her and just her self-awareness, I guess is the word, right? You know yourself, you know what you're capable of. Obviously, we know she's capable of doing amazing things,

but just to be able to do that in that environment was really impressive. And to me, what's actually most impressive is like, if she had just said, like, I'm not feeling it, to do that in that environment was really impressive. And to me what's actually most impressive is like, if she had just said like, I'm not feeling it, because I think we've all done this, any person that also has some like leveraging that a career knows this,

it's why celebrities throw like tantrums and storm off. You're like, I'm not feeling it, I'm out, right? Which is often rooted in actually a kind of self-awareness, but you don't have the self-control or the discipline to explain yourself to... Like, she could have just said like, she could have just flown home, right? Like, for sure. And it would have been also a controversy, but there would have been like no consequence. She could have just left. What I found so impressive is that she stayed and she competed. So it wasn't even like an all-or-nothing thing. She still won a bronze medal.

So you're like, she was able to have not just like the vague sense of awareness that some of us have, or like, something's not right. I don't want to force it. She was able to dial in specifically to what she could and couldn't do, can part mentalize it enough to do the thing that she could do at such a high level that she was the third best in the entire world, you know, in that brief moment even despite all the controversy, distraction, attention, and focus. Exactly. Yeah. all the controversy, distraction, attention, and focus. Exactly, yeah.

So the power of now, have there been some other books that have been influential for you as a coach? Yeah, all of yours. I've read all of them, and that's just not because I'm on here. That's the truth. I love that. I've the Daily Stoic, I gave it to Michael. Oh wow.

Yeah, I give it, that's probably the one I give out as a gift most you know, I gave it to Michael. Oh, wow. He reads it. I give it. That's probably the one I give out as a gift most often. And I'm on my way. That's why you're giving it away. Yeah, tell me, I'll send the leather ones for you. Oh, that would be awesome. That would be beautiful.

I think I'm on my third time through it. Oh, wow. You know, I read it every day regardless. Like when I went to the Olympics, I took it with me. So every day, the first thing I do in the morning is read that day's passage. So it has a long, big impact on me. And I like it because it's small enough that it doesn't take a lot of time to read, but it can have a big impact.

And then I try to have a cup of coffee and just sort of reflect on it before I start my day. So that's the first thing I do every day. What other books have worked for you? Like what other books do you pass to athletes? Power of now is a big one. A new earth, right? You know, say, kind of thing.

To athletes, I try to keep it, I like stillness is the key. I was the one I've given out the most. Oh wow. I think it's easily accessible to them. And I one I've given out the most. Oh wow. I think it's easily accessible to them, and I think it teaches them a lot about how to beat. I think in their worlds today, there's just so much noise, right? Sure.

So much iPhone and constant stimulation, and to be able to get yourself out of that, I think is one of the most important skills they can learn. that I think is one of those most important skills they can learn. I read a daily book that you might like called a calendar of wisdom by Leo Tolstoy. He, you know, of a warm piece and all his famous books, but he, he collected like what he thought were his favorite quotes or ideas. Sometimes they're Bible passages, sometimes they their passages from the Stoics. It's not a, it's, it's a little less like put together.

It's not like quote story, quote story or something. But I like to flip through that every day. And it's part of my morning routine. I think it's like, oh, that's a cool one. And what's the name? It's called a calendar of wisdom. A calendar of wisdom. I will definitely get it.

Do you see that as part? I think people sometimes think that, and I know obviously just this proven because we've talked about it so much, but I have been amazed at just what a big focus, sort of personal development, reading, philosophy, even has been in athletics, not just with coaches, but with athletes, and actually what a bond it is between athletes and coaches,

like I did this book Letters to a Young Athlete with Chris Bosh, and he was talking about like almost all his favorite books were given to him by a coach at one point or another because they addressed like a very specific issue or part of his game or personality that he was working on. Yeah. No, I try to use that more and more now, particularly with college-age athletes, I think it's a great thing. And, you know, I was trying to go some, oh, I did all the Mickey Singer books you ever read this? The Surrender. No, even heard of them. Oh well, the Surrender experiment, the untethered soul.

Oh, I know that one, yeah. You know, that's like, it was Oprah's favorite book of whatever some year. But it's more Eckhart Tolly type stuff. It's based on some Buddhist, you know, he is Buddhist. But it's an amazing story, his personal life. And I've actually shared that with some athletes because it just lets you think about your life in a lot of different ways. One of the things

that I kind of try to think about with myself when I'm trying to be philosophical is that, you want to be in alignment, right? And I don't want to get too religious or anything else, but like if you're in alignment with the source, right? Sure. You're making the right decisions. You know, you're doing the making-stoic decisions, right? You want to do the right thing first before everything else. Sure.

And a lot of times trying to get to that, I feel like just surrendering and letting it happen and letting it go, that's when your life starts to flow When you try to resist a lot of things that happen to you in life They they persist right whatever you resist persist. So I'm trying to teach my kids that you know The less resistance you put up to things the easier you saw problems and the more flow you have in your life And I think these books teach that you saw problems and the more flow you have in your life. And I think these books teach that. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards

of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts.

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You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Here's me talking to Dominique Dawes, or the best there ever was. I read something from Billie Jean King once, or she was sort of saying the paradox of being a great athlete. I'd be curious about your experiences. It is that precisely the perfectionism, the focus on what could have been better, where you fell short, you know, what went wrong, is what makes you great. It obviously creates a feedback loop where you are getting better, but it also makes it extraordinarily difficult to enjoy or even notice that you are at the peak of your game or that you've accomplished an incredible amount.

Like, you're not able to enjoy the peak because all you're focusing on is the next peak or how imperfectly you got there. Exactly. Like, what you didn't accomplish, like, it's never enough. I mean, there was just this great piece on HBO. And it was talking about the mental aspect of the sport of gymnastics and how many Olympians are just never satisfied. And then when even their career is over, there's that kudawada shudda. There's that what's next because their identity is wrapped up in being that

particular athlete and nothing more because you sacrifice so much, especially if you didn't sense your childhood. So it is hard to kind of, you know, I guess be satisfied, but that's what makes I think a lot of athletes so great that they have that. Like you mentioned before, that drive. We always wanna do more and be better. Yeah, and especially if you came from a place in your childhood where maybe you didn't fully feel enough or you felt like, hey, it's like when I'm succeeding at this,

this is when I feel like my parents are proud of me or I feel like I'm more accepted, we can pick up all these like super complicated issues that kind of get intertwined with winning or success or money or fame. And then it, I think the saddest, hardest part is you finally get everything that you think you wanted and it didn't do what you hoped.

And so it's encouraging to me to hear you talk about the family stuff because that is the one element for me that has never, that turned out to be even better than I thought. Do you know what I mean? Like hitting number one was great, but anti climactic, you know, I've never felt like any experiences with my family were anti climactic. My wedding was not anti climactic. You know what I've never felt like any experiences with my family were anti-climactic. My wedding was not anti-climactic, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, you know, waking up in the middle of the night, hearing a screaming baby at 2 a.m., not the most joyful, you know, no experience in life, but it's very fulfilling and I know I'll miss those days and I really don't miss being at the Olympics. You know, I don't reminisce, and I don't reminisce. Really? Nope. And I don't reminisce and miss. Oh, that feeling that I got in 1996 standing on the podium, which I was very honored to be a part of that and honored to have such amazing teammates and, you know, to win a gold medal and make history. But when I dream about, you know, exciting moments and memories in my life, those don't

come up. They really don't. It's the time, you know, with my spouse or, you know, making that commitment to say I do because I never thought I would get married coming from a divorced household and seeing so much heartache and pain there or, you know, birthing to children naturally

and then birthing twins, you know, like, wow, that was just, you know, a miracle and amazing, but people do it all the time. Like, they do it every day, but it was those are the moments that I really relish and they make me smile and they're fulfilling for me. And then the moments today of a young kid walking through my door, smiling or the stories that I've heard of parents that had their kids in gymnastics, they had a negative experience, they were in a very unhealthy environment, too much pressure, a kids in gymnastics. They had a negative experience. They were in a very unhealthy environment. Too much pressure, a lot of negativity.

They get into our classes here. They have a blast and they're smiling and they can't wait to come back. That's fulfilling. From that saying that the Olympics doesn't matter to me, it definitely did, but that's not what, you know, that's not what fulfills me and that's not what, you know, that's not what fulfills me and that's not what makes me whole.

And it was a little difficult, I will say, as a young athlete, winning gold, sitting on top of the podium and being like, oh, this is it, like I'm not fulfilled. What just happened here, this is what, and then when I reached investing and putting away over a million dollars, I was like, oh, wait, I'm supposed to feel so much better

about myself and so great, but I know. And so it's those moments with your family, it's those moments with your spouse, it's those moments knowing that you've planted an amazing positive seed in the stranger's life, that those are the moments, you know, that'll, that fulfill us and that'll last with us for a lifetime. Yeah, I remember when my book hit number one for the first time I was mowing the lawn. Yeah. The text came in and it's like I still have to finish

mowing this lawn. And it was this thing, it was like a five year thing and the making and it had been this, and I expected to feel X and I felt sort of the lack of X. And then when I think about like the best moments of my life, it's like sitting on a porch swing with one of my kids and they say something cuter. It's weird how the actual ordinary things

are actually what you find to be extraordinary and the extraordinary things as great as they are. And as much as they facilitate, you know, you couldn't have gotten the million dollars without winning the Olympics, and you couldn't open the gym without, but it's how little we actually need to be happy

and yet we spend, unfortunately, people spend so much of their time. Like, some people feel that, I guess I'd be curious what you think. So they get on the metal standard, they hit number one, and it's anti-climactic. You can kind of go two ways when you experience that number one is you go, oh, okay, this actually isn't it.

I gotta go find something deeper and more meaningful. And then other people go, oh, okay, this actually isn't it. I gotta go find something deeper and more meaningful. And then other people go, oh, it's not one super bowl that I needed. It's the most super balls of all time. Then I'll have it. Yeah, so then it'll be never enough. I've done motivational speaking as you have for a while. And I've done work with presidents

and very known and very powerful, you know, people. And I remember on stage, people asking me, oh, what's like the most exciting thing you've done? And I was like, well, actually last week, my two dogs who went on this walk and I saw them perform, you know, and they were like, are you serious? And I'm like, no, like I'm in the moment during those periods of life that you said, you know, you say you're ordinary, but those are really the extraordinary moments in our life that we need to appreciate.

The other day, I'm driving home with my daughter after a very long day at the gym and we were both exhausted and we see a double rainbow that she points out and she's screaming and so giddy and so excited, you know, and just kind of like that's a moment that I'll never forget. And, you know, just recognizing, you know, her, you know, reaction to that and how exciting. And then we started talking about a beach trip we had goodness, I guess it was a couple of years ago where we saw a double rainbow then. And she remembered, I was like, how does she remember that? It was years ago. But it's those little moments in appreciating those that truly are gifts. And they are those, they are the extraordinary moments in our life that we will hold onto.

But many of us see them as ordinary. We don't appreciate them. We don't recognize the beauty in them. And so we always think we've got to be on top of that podium. We've got to win not just one Super Bowl, like you said, but multiple Super Bowls. And that's what I'm going to be fulfilled. And I truly think everything that will fulfill us in life, it's right in front of us. Just many of us choose not to see it. And I went through life many years not seeing it. And it is my husband that kind of opened my eyes to the fact that it's truly those simple,

simple, simple moments in life that are truly gifts for all of us. Yeah, and I just love how timeless that idea is to, I mean, you go back to the Stokes and you know, Mark Serelai says, the Emperor of Rome and he's like, what is this? He's like, so I have like a fancier cloak than other people. Like, this doesn't change anything, you know, or, you know, 500 years ago, Blaze Pascal said, all of humanity's problems stem from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone.

And you're like, oh yeah, if I could just be here with this, whether it's cleaning up the gym in the morning, or I bet I love that experience of getting somewhere or you're turning the lights on, and they're flickering up. When I get into my office in the morning and just I'm the first one there, there's no one there, it's quiet, and I get to dig into this thing I love. Like to me, that's way more satisfying than, you know, a chunk

of a royalty check or, you know, a profile and a newspaper or something, it's weirdly being able to sort of tap into the sort of humanness of it, I think that's the most wonderful. Mm-hmm, that's, yeah, very true. I mean, I guess, you know, as we are both, you know, very accomplished individuals, I know many people listen and be like, well, of course they feel that way, because they've accomplished certain things or whatever don't have certain life struggles or challenges, they think. But I will say the happiest people that I know in life are the people that have very little. And that they're, you know, it's about their relationships, it's about the simple things

in life and they are living a much less stressed-filled life than many of us ever could. Right. Yeah. Blessed are the, blessed are the meek. a much less stressed-filled life than many of us ever could. Right, yeah, blessed are the meek. It's a, and I think too, when I think, although I'm very privileged and like you, I've made some money in, I have some nice things, but like the things that I'm most happy about, or the things that I enjoy the most,

were not at all a function of the success or the privilege. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's not the car that makes me happy if you told me I had to sell the car and get a different car. That isn't what would get me up out of bed in the morning. It would be where I'm driving the car and what I get to do. It's just because someone has something, like the Stowe has talked a lot about this. They're like, look, it's better to be rich than poor if you had a choice, but a wise,

sort of successful person should be able to be happy with either because the the external thing isn't actually changing what you're feeling inside. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't fulfill you. We just packed up and moved to come a little closer to the gym. And I realize how many things I have. My husband thinks I'm a hoarder, but I'm like, everything is sentimental. He's like, no, that scarf is not sentimental. You know, right. And one thing that I did realize is I said to the movers, I's like, no, that scarf is not sentimental. You know, right. And one thing that I did realize is I said to the movers, I was like, you know, let's leave these boxes in the garage and see how much I really need and miss these items. And I really don't

miss the stuff. And if someone, you know, if I had to, you know, leave a vehicle or whatever, you know, somewhere and I would never see it again, you know, that vehicle or what have you definitely did not fulfill me. It's definitely the relationships that we have in such in life, not the things. And I think we do think the things will fulfill us, the accomplishments and the accolades will fulfill us or the amount of money will fulfill us.

And when you do achieve that, there is this emptiness like, oh wait, I didn't get the satisfaction that I thought I would. And, you know, if you recognize that and you learn from it, then you'll, you know, strive to focus on the things that will fulfill you. And that's honestly relationships and impact and, you know, pursuing things you love, then not going after things. You know, the Stoics in real life

met at what was called the Stoa, the Stoa, Pocula, the Painted Porch in ancient Athens. Obviously we can all get together in one place, because this community is like hundreds of thousands of people and we couldn't fit in one space, but we have made a special digital version of the Stoa. We're calling it Daily Stoic Life. It's an awesome community.

You can talk about like today's episode. You can talk about the emails, ask questions. That's one of my favorite parts is interacting with all these people who are using stoeicism to be better in their actual real lives. You get more daily stoeic meditations over the weekend, just for the Daily Stoeic Life members. Quarterly Q&A's with me, clothbound edition of our Best of Meditations, plus a whole bunch of other stuff, including discounts and this is the best part, all our daily stoke courses and challenges, totally for free, hundreds of dollars of value

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