The Daily Stoic - Coach Greg Harden On The Mindset Of Champions

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Ryan speaks with Greg Harden about how Stoicism influenced his new book Stay Sane in an Insane World: How to Control the Controllables and Thrive, the techniques that he has used to coach so many sports greats to the highest levels of success, the difference between confidence and ego, why Tom Brady likes The Obstacle Is The Way, and more.Greg Harden is a life coach, motivational speaker and executive consultant who is best known for his work with 7-time Super Bowl champion quarterback Tom Brady, Heisman Trophy winner and Super Bowl MVP Desmond Howard, and 23-time Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps. He began work as a student-athlete counselor in 1986 when legendary Michigan football coach Bo Schembechler brought him in after hearing of the work that Greg was doing in the local community as a clinical therapist. Greg also provides performance coaching to corporate executives and community leaders, and he has trained hundreds of managers and administrators on ‘managing trouble employees’. His work can be found at gregharden.com.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday.

Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. We spent a good chunk of this year trying to build out this like new studio for the podcast and you've probably seen some of them on YouTube or on Instagram. It's awesome, but it's kind of been one problem after another in the sense that the AC went out. This is like this hundred-plus year old building and then we were doing some renovations on the office space. And so we ended up having to do today's episode in the bookstore itself. So it's a, I've really got into this conversation. I'll tell you about it in a second, but it's always hard to watch people trying to come into the bookstore, the door is locked. I'm trying to focus on the guest.

This was like the whole point of making the space to begin with. But you know, this is what Stoicism is, that the most minor of minor levels, which is you adapt, improvise, make do, you accept, you resign yourself, this is a reality of the situation, how can I be, and do good inside of it, in big things and small, and this episode, I think came out really great, I was really excited to do it,

and the new space is gonna be awesome. I know the employees are excited and I appreciate them bearing with me as we set this up also. Anyways, to get to today's episode, I was having dinner with someone the other night and we were talking about one of my favorite all-time documentaries, some kind of monster,

the Metallica documentary. We were talking about how it was so controversial things in that documentary is that Metallica hires a performance coach, a psychologist, to help the band come together as a unit. Meanwhile, this is now incredibly commonplace in sports and business, right? There's a character in billions

who is a performance psychologist at a hedge fund. And I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of these folks and I always get a lot out of their books. And my guest today is one of the goats of this interesting, not so well-known field. In fact, he's, I would consider him one of the goats because he was the peak performance coach for the goat for the one and only Tom Brady. Greg Hardin is a peak performance coach.

He's a consultant. He's worked with all sorts of organizations, including seven time Super Bowl champion Tom Brady, 23 time Olympic gold medalist Michael Phelps, Heisman Trophy winners, 50 NFL first round draft picks, 120 Olympians in 20 countries. He spent the last three decades building up great athletes, building up champions on and off the field at the University of Michigan. He's 60 minutes called him Michigan's secret weapon. And he has a new book out.

It's his great. Also, again, the definition of stoicism is here, right? The title of his new book is Stay Saying in an Insane World, how to control the controllables and thrive. It comes out on August 15th, 2023. Greg Harden, you can follow Greg on Twitter at real Greg Harden. You can go to Gregharden.com, check out his new book. It's great.

We super dig into it because controlling the controllable staying sane in a world that's spinning faster and faster, focusing on peak performance. These are all really key themes in Stoicism and talk about ego. Talk about a bunch of stuff he and I really vibed and it made for a great interview. So here is my conversation with Greg Harden. Enjoy. I'm David Brown, the host of Wondery's podcast, Business Wars. And in our new season, two of the world's leading hotel brands,

Hilton and Marriott, stare down family drama and financial disasters, listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Tom Brady says the title of one of my books. So, yeah, yeah, look, he says, first off, what a coup that is, just for people who haven't seen the book yet. And he's time Tom Brady writes the forward to a book, you know, you talk to a legit dude. Oh, thank you.

No, he says, okay, Greg reminded me that it's not supposed to be easy, the obstacle in the path isn't there to create frustration or make you doubt yourself or storm off or quit, the obstacle is the way difficulty is an advantage. He did say that. He did. And that is you. And I'm buying that book.

I just want to be real clear. I'm worked up to meet you, young man. Well, likewise. Well, I like this too. I think the other place we connect is, okay, so 2,000 years ago, Epictetus, he says, the first job of the philosopher is to make things into two categories. He says, things that are up to us and things that are not up to us. And I wondered if maybe that connected somewhere with your book, which is subtitled, how to control the controllables and thrive. God grant me the serenity.

To accept the things I cannot change, to courage, to change the things I can. And the bloody wisdom to know the difference. You know what's amazing about the serenity prayer is like, it feels like it's like 2000 years old. It's like 1938 or something. Like, it's just some guy. Look, it's born out of alcoholics anonymous or something. Yes. And it's one of the life lessons that once you begin to see that as a life lesson, it changes. It'll help change everything. Yes. When I walk out of my door, I have two things on

on my door every morning I would look at. Yeah. Surrendity, prayer, and the other one was on my door every morning I would look at serenity prayer and the other one was learning to laugh at yourself and you'll always have something to laugh about. Yeah, I mean, it seems so basic. Like sometimes you watch like post-game interviews and they're like, I just got to do a better job of focusing on what we control or what and you're like, can you're being paid like tens of millions of dollars or the best person in the world that what you do and like This is what it's boiling down to but then yeah, you go back two thousand years and you have this philosopher going like The first philosophical insight is Some stuff is in your control and some stuff isn't it simple, but it's not easy

Well, it's true, but it nails it. And all we're trying to do with this book is be straightforward. Yeah. And like, I had no idea of daily stoic. I had no idea that, you know, you would quote Marcus Aurelius. Marcus Aurelius. I mean, I'm just fascinated with how your mind works. But this is clearly universal truth.

Yes. It's not like I've imagined it or created it. It's just simply, well, just think about it for a moment. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. Yes. Well, and again, it seems so obvious like, okay, there's some stuff that's up to us and some stuff that's not up to us.

But then I've sort of taken obvious like, okay, there's some stuff that's up to us and some stuff that's not up to us. But then I've sort of taken it as, okay, but when you focus energy on stuff that's not up to you, you're spending less energy on the things that are up to you. And conversely, if your competitors are spending time on things that are not up to them, and you're only spending time on things that are up to you, You have a competitive advantage.

And sports might be who is 1% better, right? And over the course of a game, that manifests itself in seven points or three points or one point. Because you do realize the mental game is the game. Yes. Tom Brady. It's easy to reference Tom because most people have seen his... Yeah. Tryout video. And they've seen that he wasn't jumping higher, lifting more, or running faster than

anyone. That draft photo of him in 2000, he just looks like a basically a regular guy. draft photo of him in 2000, he just looks like a basically a regular guy. Yes. And but you couldn't measure this or this. Sure. That's what you can't measure. Sure. Because his mental game was superior to everyone else's. Right.

This guy we used to, we'd have to tell him to go home because everybody else, you're begging him to watch film and he's like, sure, he's living in, in the, in the living in the film room. Yeah. Just trying to study and figure out how to approach the game and but his ability to see what the average person can't see. Well yeah, it's like, let's say you're down,

what is it, 28 to three? Yeah, you're down to 28 to three. You go into the fourth quarter and it's not who the stronger quarterback is, it's not who has the better offensive line, right? It's sort of like who wants it more, who's cooler under pressure, right? Who isn't rattled by what's at, right? It's all these intangible skills. Everything else has kind of been evened out at that point.

It's really, can you, because in that case too, you're not even really playing against the other team at that point, you're just playing against, are you gonna quit or not? Yes! Ryan, you nailed it though. Again, the mental game is the game. 28 to three in a Super Bowl.

This is not an NFL game. This is the Super Bowl. The two best teams in the nation, going toe to toe. The only reason I'm watching it is because I love my guy. It's 28 to three. That's not impossible, but it's improbable. Yes

Yeah, understand and so but because it's him I'm not gonna bet against him, but This is pretty much over but I'm watching it out of respect. Yeah Well, I mean, what's that thing they say about Tom Brady the one thing you can never do is give Tom Brady a second chance Yeah That's a mental if that's not you don't give Tom Brady a second chance. Yeah, that's a mental, that's not, you don't give Tom Brady a second chance cause he's so fast or so strong. He has the best past.

It's that if you give him a second chance, he'll learn from what he did wrong the first time, you know, he'll make you pay, like, that's a comment on the mental game. Yes, and he mastered the mental game early in life because I'm telling you, man, he was so confident by the time he left the university, he truly believed, because, I mean,

if you've seen anything about me, I simply would say to anyone, I couldn't teach him how to throw a ball. I couldn't do anything except teach him how to believe without question or pause, and who he was and who he wanted to be called. But I think it's good you brought that up because, yes, his confidence is essential, but that's not in a inherent confidence that he had since birth. There's a scene in the book you talk about where he's like, my coaches don't believe in

me, and you go, well, basically, why should they? inherent confidence that he had since birth. There's a scene in the book you talk about where he's like, my coaches don't believe in me. And you go, well, basically, why should they? I mean, because you have to be brutally honest with folks that you care about. Yeah. And you haven't demonstrated anything in your worrying about what they think. My job, Tom, is to convince you I don't care

what the coaches think, and you can't afford to care either. You're not here to be liked. You're here to be efficient. You're here to be consistent. The single most important word in sports, consistency. I can get a hole in one. Yeah, can't do nothing else, but at one time, that's not enough. Yeah. I can't consistently perform at that level. Right. But consistency is the key to who's going to be the best and who's going to be the winner. Right. But is there a difference between belief confidence and like ego?

But why do you think I like you so much? Look, I've already, I'm going to be giving you a book that I say. Yeah. And in that book, I'm going to go to page 61. Let us turn now to page 61. We're going to turn to page 61 in your book. In on page 61, you will see that it ends by talking about something very specific. If you look at letting your ego help you instead of just inflate you. Yes. You would think that I talked to you because you look at that last line. The secret. What does this say? The secret is to make your ego your ally, not your enemy. And some guy wrote a book. So how do you make your ego your ally? Walk me through it. Well, it's important to understand that ego in contemporary society is this bad word. Yes. But if it wasn't for ego, I wouldn't get out of bed no more. I mean, so I've got to shape, I've got to have the ability to be able to be self-motivated,

to be able to push myself, to convince myself to not just dream, but to believe. Dreaming being is nice, but I have to believe big. And so I have to train my ego to be not something that just makes me lie to myself, or fantasize that I'm the guy, or be a narcissistic buffoon. I've got to convince my ego to be my best friend and to help me when I'm struggling for my what self talk. I think what you're saying is ego is a kind of self-sufficiency, right? Like I think about this, like when I, I have tried to get to a place where I was a writer where I don't really care how the book sell, I don't really care what other people think about them.

I know what I'm trying to do, and I try to evaluate if they're good or not based on whether I did everything I was capable of doing, whether it achieved what I wanted to achieve, whether I'm proud of it or not, and then everything else is extra. And so in one sense, there's kind of an ego to that, right, because you're saying, what I care about and think about matters more than what other people care and think about. But there's also kind of a self-sufficiency

to that that's like, I'm playing my own game and that game is higher than the game of the crowd or the market or whatever. Because what we're talking about is having the ability to give 100% 100% of the time when lose a draw. Everybody, people get it when I say, give 100% 100% of the time to be the best. But they miss it when I say when lose a draw. And so if I am willing to push myself, to believe in myself, and I end up being okay with, it might work,

it might not work, but I'm gonna do the best I can with what I've got, when lose or draw. That frees you and liberates you from the ego this thing, you're nothing unless you conquered everyone. No, I'm working. Yeah, you have to be able to shrug off, striking out, losing bad call, except you have to be able to shrug that off.

Bra. Baseball is one of the most fascinating sports in the world. Yeah. Because if I'm good and I, in 70% of the time, I'm stinking up the place. But 30% of the time, I'm that guy. Yeah. You that guy. Yeah. So you talk about shaping your mind differently, because you know, I, you can't afford to be

tripping hard if you strike out or you don't get a hit. We had a ego of like, I'm the best because I have the best batting average in baseball. I have, you know, the most home runs. That works for you while it's working, but what about when, you know, when you have that slump and when you're striking out? Well, that's when we get to the whole obsession of trying to teach people the mental game.

Yeah. And part of the mental game is introducing, not just, because remember Desmond Howard, Tom Brady, they're not in my office because of mental health and depression and despair. They're trying to be the best. Right. It's an optimization game. That's the name of the game. So teaching people to trust and believe that what they're doing is right and for the right reasons trying to convince Desmond Howard that you've got to decide with or without football. Yeah Your life is gonna be amazing. Yeah, imagine telling Tom Brady at 19 who's obsessed with being the starter on the team that you the most difficult thing

I can teach you, Tom, is you gotta believe with or without football, your life is gonna be amazing. Tom, what did I just say? Brady is so intense and so brilliant. He breaks it down for me. And everybody else, it takes me weeks to get him to even consider what I'm saying.

But it is true, right? Because you could blow out his knee, you could get in a car accident. There could be a lockout. You could not get drafted. Like it's not, that's not a controllable. Because we're trying to prepare you for life. If I'm preparing him for life, if I can make him a better person, I promise him he'll be a better athlete. And that's that's tough sale. And back in the day, in the last 10 years though, it's gotten easier because mental health and mental game and all that and mindfulness, everything is becoming popularized.

No, I think people have that fear, right? It's like, no, my like, drinking is part of my creativity, right? Or like my wild lifestyle, it's like, it's a relief out. Like I think people think it's like because on the way up, the success was intertwined with certain bad habits or choices or whatever, that if you take that away, it'll all, like I think people, they go,

you know, Tiger Woods goes to rehab and he's never the same, right? And I think there is this fear of working on the personal life that you're gonna mess with the secret formula. Look, I have had a, imagine this. I'm a brother from Detroit. Okay. And I don't want any parts of ice

and I don't want to have somebody with a cultural in their hand skating at 45 miles an hour. So hockey is not what I am really good at. Imagine telling a hockey player whose daddy was a hockey player who's obsessed with their son, their DNA. It's in the DNA. I'm telling their son who's ready to quit hockey. And the coach, and it's not fun anymore. And I say, and that's your coach's fault. Wait a minute.

You're not having fun because of your coach's personality. Is that what you're telling me? You cannot tell me anything like that. I mean, not give it back to you and say, you're not having fun because you've chosen not to have fun. And you are no longer playing a game. You're now trying to be in the NHL. And you're now trying to deserve your scholarship.

And you change you hard to be Peter perfect that it's not working in your miserable negative and depressed, not because of the coach. The coach may have a whack personality. What's the likelihood? How old is your coach? Oh, I don't know, 45, 50. So what's the likelihood of your coach changing?

Yeah. Oh, zero. Exactly. So what's the likelihood of your coach changing? Yeah. Oh, zero. Exactly. So what we have to work in on is you. Yeah. And so imagine telling a hockey player, I want you to get on that ice. And I want you to piss off your teammates

and everyone that comes near you because you're having so much fun The kid goes out and does it I Swear to God he had a hat trick Because I say you need to understand this is a game that you play game play My god, it's implying. Yeah fun. Yeah, it's called playing. If you're not having fun, and when you would, I said, tell me about the greatest game of your life.

Yeah. And he'd tell me this magnificent story. And I said, what were you thinking? Yeah. And you know what they say. I wasn't thinking at all. Of course. I was just having the time of my life.

I saw this, you know, Shocker Smart is the best coach at Marquette. He was talking about this, you know, players come in, they're the best high school player in the world, you know, whatever, that is great relationship with the game they think, and then they quit in college because they're not having fun anymore. And he's like, the game hasn't changed. You're not having fun because you associated fun with everything going your way. Yes, Exactly.

With winning, with getting all the playing time you wanted, with everyone rooting for you. And now you're just in a different competitive environment, a different reality. And fun is not what, fun is not what's changed. And remember the hockey player, his daddy's dad have fun. Yeah. Withers this fool telling you. You know, it's you. I think about the fun of my life, I mean. Yeah, I have never. You understand? So yeah, bro, we're talking about going against the green when we're trying to help people to understand that the fear of failure is killing you.

Yeah. You know, they ain't the game, they ain't the coach. Your obsession with being Peter perfect is killing you. You know, they ain't the game, they ain't the coach. Your obsession with being Peter perfect is killing you. Your daddy is obsession. Your father don't mean no harm, but he's being harmful if he's convinced that you have to be this rigid dip who continues to just be a beast and a brute. I have a quote next to my desk. It's from the choreographer Martha Graham and it says, never be frightened of material.

The material knows when you are afraid and it will not help. And I think about that. It's not quite the same as go have fun out there, but it is like if you're intimidated, if you're scared, if you don't think you can do it, that's not the right attitude to bring to the thing either. You're not gonna do well that way.

Your rhythm, every time in your rhythm is off. Yeah, you're not dancing. Yeah, you're performing totally different than dancing. Yes, yes, right. There has to be a looseness to it and a lightness to it to do it. To do whatever it is, whether it's the sales call if you're too like sweaty and thirsty, like you want it too bad. That's not going to be the same as going into the call, having told yourself they want to hear from me, They want to buy it. I have that, you know, there's a, you do better when you're light and loose.

I think so. I agree wholeheartedly. And it's something that you have to teach because what you begin to try to introduce to people is the people that I've worked with. And it's not, the confusion for me is how people think I'm taking athletics to corporate. I took corporate to athletics. I'm interested. Yeah. I trained over a thousand managers and supervisors on how to manage the troubled employee. And I took the athletics, how to manage the troubled athlete who's experiencing daily living problems who keeps turning out to be human.

Yes. Over and over again, the biggest problem these kids have is they turn out to be real people. But you had asked me, you had said something a moment ago that opened up that door. Lightness and looseness. We went somewhere else. No, I think that is interesting. I just got back two days ago, I gave a talk to a bunch of Marines and 29 Palms, a big regiment of Marines.

It is remarkable, they're training these people to be killers, right? They're the tip of the spear. But they're talking about the same things that you'd hear psychologists talk to an athlete about, that you'd hear a really great manager talk to the team about, you know, about folks saying what you control, you know, locking in. You know, like it is remarkable how, is that just the mental performance is super important in sports. It's that across elite performance, the mental thing is everything. And that's where we were going. What we're talking about is like people understand physical fitness, especially in the community and that's where I was going with

the community that I'm popular I was going with the community that I'm popular for. They certainly understand physical fitness. And so I'll have a seminar with a team and I'll say, I'm from another planet, I don't know what physical fitness is. Could you break it down for me? Yeah, of course. How much can you lift?

I'm not sure. You're right. I'm sure what I'm doing. And during stamina, and until they say recovery time, I tell them that you don't understand fitness. Because until you understand the concept of recovery time, being in shape means you can give 100% and two seconds later, take a couple of breaths and do it again. So then I say, so then what is mental fitness? And then it dance all around. I say, so then what is mental fitness? And then it dance all around. I said, I just gave you the answer.

Yeah. Yeah. And what we're talking about is training people to be able to understand that you can practice training and rehearse mental fitness. You can create a space in your brain where you begin to understand that you can recover faster from than the average person. And that's where we're trying to get you. Because trials and tribulations, I don't care who you are and how much you live God, you're going to be tried.

And so what we're talking about is recovery time. talking about is recovery time. Yeah. The people who are mentally fit recover faster than the average person. Yeah, if we take it for granted that a bunch of stuff in the course of a game or a season or a career, it's gonna be outside of your control.

Yes. What it really comes down to is how quickly can you respond to those things and respond well? Sometimes it's going to be this big thing and sometimes it's just going to be Your pregame workout is five-minute shorter than it usually is does that rattle you or can you adjust quickly? Or can you adjust quickly? Yeah, you're going to score and you've been fantastic Can you recover from success? You can't just teach people to recover from failure.

You gotta teach people how to handle the ego. Well, you think a game is 48 minutes, and then it goes into overtime. You budgeted for 48 minutes, and then there was overtime. You have to recover, not just physically, but you have to recover to the fact that in your mind, the game was almost over and you were done

and you could go home and then the other team rallied and now you got to play another five minutes. Yes, sir. That's what that's that's the adjustment that you have to make. And again, the mental game is the game and the ability to identify what's working and what's not working, not only in sports, but in my life. You know, being able to have identify healthy versus unhealthy relationships, being able to identify to teach people critical assessment. How do I self-evaluate? How do I self-reflection? You know, my infamous is popular now, but you have to be able to look at your life and become the world's greatest expert on who you are to become the best version of yourself.

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When I mentioned that so hard as an athlete because for the first, let's say, 18 years of your life, you really only had to be physically better than everyone else, right? You're just sort of brute force, physically, are you faster, bigger, stronger, and that's it. And there's a small percentage who... Yeah, I just mean... Typically, yes. Athletes tend to have an intense physical awareness of their body, but they are... They might be totally inarticulate in an interview,

they might be failing all their classes, but they have a different kind of intelligence. They have a physical intelligence that is unmatched, right? But to be truly great to get to the next level, they have to be as smart in the other, you know, domains. You have to have multiple forms of intelligence, which is to go to your point, are you an expert in your triggers? If you're the athlete, it's easy for people to get in your heads, or you're not aware of that. You're just a mark to the next shark that comes along. We'll see. The next shark that comes along will say yeah, I mean we're talking about

Do in in in one of the chapters we talked introduce the whole idea of swath analysis. Yeah, which is MBA We're doing consulting for corporate in America. We're gonna look at the strengths the weaknesses the opportunities and threats to our success as an organization Yeah, nice that said look You're to do a swat analysis, huh? You're going to look at your strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats to your success. Sure. Then we take it to another level. I want you to identify two to three people who love you, who you trust,

who are not going to abuse power. Yeah. And you're going to ask them at the same time while you're writing your own to write one and be brutally honest with you. And then we're going to come back, we're going to look at yours. And then we're going to process that and then we're going to look at what the people who you trusted said. We're going to see where there's matches, where everyone has the same idea. They see something you don't see because you have to be able to look at what's working in your life

and what's not working. Yeah. And get feedback outside of your own ego because it's hard for some people look at their weaknesses. And it's really hard for some people to look at their strengths. It is funny how basic that is though, right? I saw this interview with Sean Payton and he was, this is right before he took over in Denver and someone was like, well, how are you gonna turn around Russell Wilson, right? And he was like, I'm gonna look at all the film,

all the plays that he ran last year. And I'm gonna look at the ones that did well. I'm gonna do more of those. And then I'm gonna look at the ones that didn't go well. And we're gonna play fewer of those. I'm genius. Yeah. And you're like, that's what you got $15 million for a season.

But that's both really simple, but also not what most people do when they are trying to dig out of a hole or fix a situation. Like, I just, that's such a football coach way of thinking, but it's actually like such great advice for life. You're a bit, where are you getting sales in your business? Where are you not getting sales? Let's do more of one and less of the other.

What's working? What's not working? So, aside from doing clinical therapy, I'm talking about peak performance. Yeah. We've got to teach you how to identify what works and what doesn't work. But in order to take you to the next level,

we're not just talking about on the field. Yeah. We're talking about in your daily living. When are you and your spouse getting along? Cool. What are the sources of conflict? Let's prepare ourselves for more of those and then less of the other.

Exactly. Because I'm trying to convince people, say for example, we're talking about athletes, I'm saying if you're a better person, you'll be a better athlete. Yeah. Or just like how, how like the NBA recently was like, you know, if we put the players on

fewer back-to-back games, they get hurt less and they play better. Genius. Yeah, right. But that's that's the league doing the same thing. When do we have great games? Yes. When what are great seasons and what seem to be, you know, the sources of seasons falling apart, teams falling apart, it's just like, hey, you crushed it at that, you know, the sources of seasons falling apart, teams falling apart, it's just like,

hey, you crushed it at that meeting the other day. Why was, well, I slept really well the night before. Think you could have been onto something, you know? For real though. Instead of just hoping that the factors line up, how do you arrange a life and a system and a routine instead of practices that encourage more of that. Well, that's why I like you. Give me some character, some character, some things that are critical.

Boom, your boom, boom, boom. For me, it's simpler. I'll leave a care compassion and concern. Yeah. Care, the three C's, baby. Yeah. Before I open my mouth. Am I leading? Am I saying it? Sometimes you have to dig deep to let go of your baggage or your issues or your anger or your frustration with somebody. And before I open my mouth, I've got it grounded with care, compassion, and concern. So you're talking about what makes you better as a person, what makes you better as an athlete, but I feel like some of the things that make you better as an athlete make you worse as a person.

I'll give you an example. There's certain athletes, they're like notorious for perceiving and then holding on to grudges, right? Like, I'm gonna prove that guy wrong. I'm gonna shove that in their face. You know, they talk trash to me. I'm gonna make them regret it. That can be a recipe for motivation on the court,

but if you do that at home or in traffic, you know, you're gonna blow up your life. So how do you think about some of the traits that are adaptive in the professional worlds but really destructive personally? It's really important, and this is difficult for a lot of people to hear, to be able to compartmentalize,

to be real clear about when you are performing, and entertaining, and trying to make more money, and when you're trying to be loved, and you can't be loved if you don't give love. So you've got to train yourself to be able to be clear when you are in different roles, because we wear so many hats, Yeah. And we have so many different personalities that you have to just simply learn to be deliberate and intentional about how you're going to turn something off when you before you get out of that car and go into that house. Yeah.

I think about this, like you say, someone like Tom Brady, right? He is very strict with his teammates, right? Holds them to a very high standard. He expects them to be as much of a professional as he is to do their job and they don't, they shouldn't be on a team at Tom Brady, right? That great captain's, great athletes, they're pros, right?

And they're very demanding. But you can't be that way with an eight year old or a spouse or whatever, right? And so, yeah, how do you turn off some of the, some of the things that make you great at what you do, you have to be able to turn them off when you step out of the locker room. Great coaches, great athletes, hate to lose. Yeah. But I shouldn't hate myself because I lost.

I can't just in the future. And I can't, and I can't be bitter, miserable, negative, and depressed when I walk into that household. I can ask for, give me a few minutes so I can debrief, so I can cleanse myself, but I'm not going to bring this into the house. You know, I had to train myself. We're on the plane and we just got our buns handed to us and I got to remember not to be

me Because I'm you know at least calm yourself now. Shut up. Don't be that happy There one one of Lincoln's aides said he never demanded perfection of anyone and he did not even expect from them the high standards for which he set to himself. And I think there's an element of that that's essential as a leader and also just as a person in the world. It's called self-discipline. It's like you chose this. You can't expect everyone else to live to your standards and also like especially in sports.

It's like, man, you're making three, four, five times as much money as this person. You should care and be that much better. They're on their own journey and you got to leave them to that. Imagine a basketball player who is so good, that he gets to the spot and he passes the rock and they miss it. Because he doesn't know they're not as good as he is. Yes. He's got to recalibrate and bring them along.

And he's got to be so good that he can adjust and adapt and know the speed and the capabilities, the limitations of each player on that team if he's gonna be the point guard, if he's gonna be that guy. And cause it's gotta be frustrating if you're that good. Yeah. And they can't keep up with you.

Yeah, I saw Rick Fox interview once where he was saying he had to go to Kobe and go, hey, we're not all Kobe's. And there's actually in ancient Rome, one of the Stokes, his name was Kato. He was this very strict, very austere, disciplined, sort of ethical man. And there was an expression in that time,

which is we can't all be Kato's. And even Kato is not Kato all the time. Kobe is not Kobe all the time. You gotta be able to accept that other people are on different journeys and have different capabilities than you. Or you're going to grind them down and push them away. And you're going to miss the things that they can do. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And then I think that must be particularly hard for athletes to apply at home. Yeah, because we all have to adjust and adapt. I mean, imagine, can you imagine being married to you? You know, because, bro, your mind is so,

your range is crazy. Yeah. You know, and what you can see and what you can talk about and how you see the world and how you see how people should and ought to, you know, you have to, it's hard to resist. You know, well, how come you can't see that, honey? Can't, because I can't. Oh, I love you. That, cause I can't. Oh. And I love you.

That's all I can. Sure. Yeah, it's, and also I think if you practice some of that self-awareness that you're talking about earlier, you go, maybe it's good not to be me. You know what I mean? Like, be happy for them that they're not, they're not cursed with the same desires and ambition and commitment and sort of calling that you are. I don't wanna date me.

Yeah. I don't wanna marry me. I wanna marry someone different because that's the way the world really works. And that's where balance comes in. And her strengths are gonna be different than mine. And so you're counting on having a synergy and hope that everyone's bringing something

a little different. Yeah. You said, you had this great line in the book, you said there's two different kinds of love. Tell me that story. Oh, bra, look. So it's two different kinds of love. Tell me that story. Oh, bra. Look, show. It's two different kinds of love is is the chapter that talks about how my son, who was like 14, 15 at the time, we had a formula. I go to work, you know, I get home before he gets home. He shows up

45 minutes exactly and by get free, that's what's gonna happen every day. And he doesn't come home. Yeah. And so, like, I'm getting a little irritated because 10 minutes goes by, he's not home. 20 minutes, 30 minutes, all of a sudden it's 45 minutes. And he's not home. I'm furious. I'm gonna rip them

and you would. You understand because back gaffery this is the plan and you would have in your puts on a round or doing something they ain't no cell phones and everybody's hands and lo and behold our in a half goes by and all of a sudden I understood love like I had never understood it before. See because pop is love is like do what I say, do what I want you to do, be on time and you'll be rewarded. Mama's love is like, and like I thought I understood what it meant to love your child. But when that boy didn't come home and it was an hour and a half later, my mind went absolutely nuts pondering what could be the problem.

And then all of a sudden, the fear and anxiety that I had never in life experienced, ascended upon me or descended upon me, whatever you do. And so next thing I know is like, I'm just like, I don't care what it is, I just need to know that he's okay. And it pushed me into an awareness of what a mother's love must be like. And it pushed me into an awareness of what a mother's love must be like. And it pushed me into awareness of unconditional love. And I start thinking so clearly,

by the time the boy gets home, I'm happier than a tick on a dog's butt. You could add face tattoo and record. Right. I mean, because the idea of loss, it puts everything in perspective. It put it all the way in perspective. And so I went from a father's love to a mother's love

in that one session, and I began to understand differently how people love. Yeah. And it was an unbelievable lesson in my life. Yeah, there's a passage in Mark's Realist's Meditations where he says, you know, as you tuck your child in at night You should say to yourself they will not survive to the morning It is like meditating on the loss that the most precious thing in the world to you

And I think some people have read that as a kind of detachment that that's the philosopher saying, you know I'm otherworldly. I don't care about worldly I think it's the opposite I think it's rooting you immediately in the present and in what matters, you know, I'm otherworldly, I don't care about worldly. I think it's the opposite. I think it's rooting you immediately in the present and in what matters. You know, they're like one more book. In light of what you were just thinking about, you'll read till four in the morning, right? Like when you can contemplate for a second

as unthinkable and unpleasant and scary as it is, loss or injury or, you know, just even them just growing up, right? It puts, I told you to line your shoes up by the door in perspective or like the sea on the map, you know, it puts all of the things in perspective. Like having a dependent, yeah, that word is loaded, bro. I mean, especially when we're talking about itty bitties, I mean, their whole world is you. And if you don't do your job, they're doomed. If you don't see what they need, just simple needs. You know, I mean, it's crucial that we've become so grounded in who we are and who we're trying to become. We understand that love is in love until you give it away.

I heard Obama say, like having a kid is like, your heart running around outside your body. That's deep. And that's what it is. That's what dependent vulnerability. That's your hostage. For real, because it ain't about you, and you finally understand it ain't about you. And that's talk about humility. You have a kid. They will introduce humility into your life. You know, clean my stinking drawers. Okay. Let me get that for you.

When I especially imagine with some of the athletes that you work on, where they're best in the world, people are taking care of them. They always get their way. Everything, it's not that everything comes easy, but they are used to being great. And one of the things that parenting does is you're real bad at it. Even if you're trying really hard, you know? We try to do that. You know, so because some of the roles I played

I'll have people saying, you know, my kid is outstanding. And I want him to get be recruited. You know, what do I need to do? And I have to share with them, you don't need to do anything because we don't trust you, because you're in love. We have a tad bit of a bias. If you want your kid to be recognized, let the film talk, let the coaches who coach them talk to other coaches, your opinion.

And we take what we don't take with a great assault. We don't we don't take it. Sure. Because what are you going to say about your child? Sure. He's the best. She's the most out of you. Got it. Well, yeah, a lot of people identify with their own success, and that causes problems.

But the real messed up thing is when you start to identify with your kid's success, and you treat them as an extension of you, that makes you vulnerable. It makes them vulnerable, and it's not. And that's a recurring theme in sports. The pressure, the expectations, the fantasy, that you're going to live your life in your dream being that superstar through them. The pressure that people don't understand, the real pressure that 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 year olds are under, they think they do, but they don't. And we need to be real clear that the average individual

in organized amateur sports in college will never be a professional athlete. Never. with your sports and college will never be a professional athlete. Yeah. Never. Yeah. And so, but sometimes you'll have a 17 year old whose whole family system is betting on them, counting on them, telling them how much it means for them to be at an institution and maybe go on pro. So it's real difficult sometimes because sometimes you'll meet people who are

in sports, don't like sports. The great metaphor from golf is that like the harder you try, the more you suck. And I feel like that's true in most assets, most areas of life, some form or another. The more self-conscious you are of what you're trying to do, the chances of you doing it well are lower. You got to understand golf is the most brilliant metaphor of all time. I mean, the best role model I had was a, a female about five foot three inches tall. Yeah. And I'm trying to learn the game.

And she's out driving me. I'm with 205. I'm strong with ammonia. And she's out driving me. I'll swing harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a recipe for whiffing it. Oh.

And until I began to see that her swing was elegant. Yeah. Her swing was smooth as silk. I began to understand it's technique, not strength. Yeah. Oh my God. Right. What a major breakthrough, but life is like that.

You've got to have strategies and techniques and commitments to processes and formulas that you can count on that aren't necessarily just beating it up and making it happen. If you see those Netflix documentaries, the one about golf and the one about tennis, they're pretty good. I forget break point and I forget what the other one's tennis. They're pretty good. I forget what break point and I forget what the other one's called. But what I thought was interesting, because we ought to use golf as the metaphor.

It's like the harder you try to more you screw up. But what I thought was interesting is that golf is a very humbling game, but all the golfers seem to really like golf. And when I watched the tennis one, it seemed like all the tennis players hated tennis. And I couldn't figure out, you know what I mean? And there is kind of an anger simmering beneath the surface

in a lot of tennis players. And I couldn't quite figure out why they seem to hate it so much. Well, as an administrator, you need to know that one of our Notions is that tennis is one of the toughest sports to manage. What? because it's Imagine creating a tennis team let alone individuals. Yeah, they have the tennis You come to college and you have a college coach. You have a

hitting coach. Yeah. You have a strength and conditioning. They have more coaches than anybody that you've ever seen. And the college coach has to tolerate. Yeah, I've got my serving coach. I've got my, and so you talk about some people who are under tremendous pressure to be perfect, and to please so many people, it is a grind, it's a bonafide grind, and then, and it boils down to moving your feet. You're right. At least golf. You're

not hitting the same shot over and over and over and over again. So you're you're spread out. You're covering distance. There's a time between the you're man gets to process. You can recover faster. Oh, Brian. It's can't, it can, it can end quickly. Yeah. Or you could go on, you're on, you know, you've seen matches. Yeah, yeah. It never ended.

Sure. That volleyball, volleyball, volleyball, volleyball. Yeah, it was just, and so many people I know have talked about like their kids, they're, they're really good at tennis and they're playing, and then just one day they're like, fuck, I never wanna play every day. I never wanna play again. The pressure is tremendous on tennis.

Yeah. I mean, just, I mean. Look how fast the rock is going, man. That's true, sure. Tee, how do you even train your brain to anticipate you have to anticipate where that serve is going right? You got to anticipate where your rack has to be because it's it's going too fast to like see it and then React you got to know you got to believe in your heart that you know exactly what's gonna happen with that ball

When they when it comes off with the other person's racket, right? It's a fascinating game. Swimming is the other one where it's just you in your mind staring at some tiles underneath you and the water is always cold. And you're good. Do you understand that? Swim, understand this because we're talking sports. Swimming and diving.

Yeah. Ain't got an ending sports swimming and diving. Yeah. Hey, God, Nending Comedy said water. Sure. We're on the swimming and diving team. Yeah. They're radically different sports. It's like a runner in a shop putter. Sure. I knew that I was a true sports administrator when I could watch the mile in a pool. Yeah. Back and forth. Yeah. Back and forth. How many laps? I'm on 60. Yeah. Imagine in like the closest thing to swimming and diving is track and field. Yeah. But track and field is outdoors. Right. Track and feel training. I'm running over the mountains and the hills and pretending I'm an adult open in a panther and doing all these

things and swimming at one line. That white line and staying in your lane and grind it out over and over and over. You wonder why Michael Phelps had to rebel. I mean, adolescence requires you to fight for autonomy at certain point. Imagine you've been in the pool since you were 12 years old, told that you will be an Olympian. And at 15 you're at the Olympics.. And at 15 you're at the Olympics. And then at 19 you're at the Olympics. Each. When just the constant delayed gratification, right? It's like, sure, you're practicing every day

and that's the reward is gonna be in competition. And you do have some competitions, but really the only competitions are every four years. The, it's very hard for anyone to show up and work on something when the potential rewards for that thing are an incomprehensible amount in the future. It's like, why dieting is hard, right? Because you know it will make a difference

but not in any perceptible way, anytime soon. Yeah, and remember, you just describe Olympians. And we're talking about college, the championships and boom, boom, boom is every day, but the worst thing about swimming is you take two weeks off, you're behind. Yeah, yeah. What do they do?

They do like a mile warm up, just to get started, you know? And then after the race, they better do a warm down. And then they better go get a nice, yeah, nice tub. It's a grind. It's the grind. The lactic acid buildup is insane. Yeah, you got to figure out what grind you love though. Is there? Yeah. Yeah. And you got to be able to find ways to recover. And you then have to teach that athlete and all the other athletes that your self-worth and self-esteem must not be based on performance. Yeah. I've got to convince somebody that how I feel about me cannot be based on my sport.

Eight tenths of a second. But then if you're serious, you have to say, well, when did you start being a gymnast, a swimmer? Five, four. How could I not see myself as a swimmer? I'm a swimmer, no, you're more, I've got to convince anybody, I've got to convince an executive, I've got to convince anybody. I've got to convince an executive.

I've got a corporate attorney. I've got to convince them that you're more than an attorney. You're more than an executive. You're more than a millionaire. You're more than a swimmer. The thing you work hardest on in your life, that you're the only one in the world to do or you're one of an elite group to do, blah, blah, blah, all that. It's meaningless.

Like how could you, what? Thanks. Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. But this, I get rewards and people love me and they say my name and the lights go off and boom, then Michael, you're more than a swimmer. Yeah. Yeah.

It ain't easy what I do, son. I just make it look that way. Like an athlete, right? It should look effortless. It should look simple. It should, it's simple. Yeah. But if everyone could do it, you know, it's a fascinating world because

you're surrounded by people who are just in a stage in life where they're transforming themselves from adolescence to adulthood. And they're going through the same things that everybody else on campus is going through, or going through every, or every Olympian on the planet turns out to be a human being. It's just fascinating to be able to talk to individuals who are trying to figure out who they are. So talking about, you know, you're more than a swimmer, you're more than this. Have you ever met an athlete or a champion for whom getting that thing did it for them? They were on the medal stand and they were like, I'm finally happy, I finally feel good.

Does it ever, does it ever, does it ever feel that whole? Yeah, for a brief moment in time. It's fleeting because now it's the next one. You know, you ask a guy who's had a lot of championships and football, the 70s, which ring is your favorite? The next one. Right, they're always looking for that next hit. So yes, for a brief moment in time,

and you have to train people out of that mindset because if I had more money, I'd be happy. No, you're just not a happy person. If I had a better significant other, if Sinans were pots and pans, son there'd be no need for skillets. Yeah. Seneca, one of the stokes, he said, you know, poverty isn't having too little.

It's wanting more. Because you can be a very rich, very poor person. And I think that you could have five rings. But if six is the one that you think makes you the goat or makes your dad proud of you or silences the critics. You know, think about Kevin Durant. Kevin Durant has gotten in his mind that he's got to prove, he's the bus driver or he's not great.

And so it's taken him all over the NBA. That's some not so great spots because he needs that. Jason had dreams, just chasing that fantasy. Yeah. Yeah, but you nailed it. It's awkward to be around people who think if I just had this. Yeah. Conditional happiness. I would be happy because at the end of the day,

I think we open the door in chapter six where we talk about basic needs. We'll be discovered. And anytime somebody says every or all, they're about to say something profound or completely ridiculous. Everyone has basic needs. And I looked at a formula that talks about four A's. And I'll ask people, what do you think the four A's are? Of course, someone's air. No, they're not.winged drives me crazy.

Well, we're talking about the need for attention, affection, approval, and acceptance. So what we have to teach people how to do is, I mean, we have people who are the best friend anyone could have. They are attentive and affectionate and they validate you right and they accept your flaws and all. But when I ask them what about self-love and self-acceptance? We have patterns where people are so invested in getting the approval of others

invested in getting the approval of others that they settle for approval when they long for acceptance. We have people who want to be loved and have affection and settle for attention and negative for positive. I have made a complete and total fool of myself seeking attention, affection, approval and acceptance. I've also been a hero. And has getting these things ever done anything for you? Yeah. Until I understand, until we understand how cruciate is to be attentive to yourself, to be affectionate and care

for yourself, to begin to understand that I have, have I there's a chapter in the book where I talk about my father in a Donovan that opens up the whole piece on attention. I'm 34 years old and it does I mean I still crave my father's approval. Yeah come on and I'm teaching everyone else something different. Yeah. It just hit me like a ton of bricks. And I decided that my father loved me. He couldn't express it, because no one expressed it to him. He didn't know how to express it. It dawned on me that my father loved me and that he cared about me.

And while he couldn't demonstrate it the way I thought he should have, I had surrendered to the idea that he can only do what he can do. Sure. It opens up the door. It liberated me completely. And I swear to God, in 48 hours, I got a call from my father asking for my opinion. He didn't ask for my opinion. He knows everything.

And he says to me, you know more about this than I do. Who is this? Did he call someone else? Who is this? And I swear it was as soon as I let go of my need and desperate, yeah. My desperation, who is approval,

and believe that he always cared and always loved me, he called and said, I always care, and I've always loved you. It was, it was classic. I've noticed, like, I've noticed loved you. It was classic. I've noticed, like, I've noticed a trend in teams. Like, it seems like the best teams, you know, I don't see Steve Curry,

yell at his players very often. You know what I mean? There is the model of the sort of old school, authoritarian, disciplinarian, you know, don't want to piss off coach. And then there seems to be a new breed of coach administrator program that's more about culture and more about building people up than tearing them down.

And then, I don't know if everyone has bought into that yet. What do you think? Well, you do realize that Tony Dunjie couldn't get hired because he was too nice. I swear, this is true story. Yeah. They let him go from Tampa Bay, Buckeneers, because he just wasn't cussing and screaming.

There's the image we have of what a coach should be. And so the servant leader is what he introduced and wrote about boom, boom, boom. But when you think about in every, in many professions that you're aware of, there's something called continuing education units, yeah, to be licensed and certified. Coaches, however, are frozen in place to whenever they're frozen in town. There is. Yeah This is how I was coached. This is how I'm going coached. The generation in the world

is changing rapidly. And the players they have now, you can't, it doesn't work. You know, all this authoritarianist, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just a matter of fact, in this day and age, the biggest problem in my opinion with pro-afflinatics is that as much as we complain and why I'm about how much coaches are getting paid so the players can get you fired. That's a game changer, bro. So you have to be able to be to be successful. You've got to be more flexible. You've got to be able to read people. You've got to be able to listen. You've got to be able to engage. You've got to learn how to empower people in You've got to be able to listen. You've got to be able to engage. You've got to learn how to empower people

in order to be the best leader you can be. Yeah, I heard a CEO say once that he said, it's always worth reminding yourself that it's an all-volunteer world. You know, that all these people are here willingly and they can leave willingly. You know, even I was thinking about this when I was talking to them Marines this week, it's like none of these guys were drafted. And then women chose to be there.

And they must be treated accordingly. Look, if you want to get, if you want the talent, you got to do something, you do whatever the talent wants, but you have to create an environment that the talent is able to thrive in and enjoys being in. The days of staying somewhere 20, 30 years have faded. Because money, we have a current generation that's not driven as much by money as people think they might be. They want to be an environment where they are being developed as human beings, where they are valued and appreciated, engaged early on about how can we make this place better.

And if you don't care about my opinion and care about my philosophies and my truths, I'll go somewhere else. Yeah. Sure. I don't care about my opinion and care about my philosophies and my truths. I'll go somewhere else. Yeah. Sure. Right, it's a volunteer world. You're absolutely right. I agree. Yeah, especially in college sports, the transfer portal is a reminder, it's a volunteer

world. And it's a game changer. Yeah. We won't even start talking about NIL. Yeah. We want to start talking about NIL. Yeah. Because see, the worst thing about all that is we gambling on a kid who's 17, 18 years old, don't tell him.

Anyone I told you this. But the average four, five star, the average four five star may not be a four five star. And it may not pan out that way. Sure. So now I'm going to bet a fortune on a child who may or may not be sure who I fantasize they're going to be or I'm going to pay you to come to my institution. Yeah. And if someone offers you 50 cent more, you're gone. Yeah. Sure. The world has changed. It's dramatic. But I'm sure there's opportunities in that. I mean, let's go back actually to that,

where we started, which is the idea that, you know, what stands in the way is the way that the obstacle has opportunities. How do you think about that as far as elite performance? Look, teaching people how to embrace the obstacle, teaching people how to grow their life and that go through life is where we go. That's where we, that's my emphasis on teaching people to understand that Opportunity is gonna knock yeah, you're gonna get in the game. Yeah, but if you don't have the right mindset

You're getting the game and you still mowing and groaning and complaining about how you should have could have all to have been The starter and then you go out there and your mindset is off Yeah, and you're you're. And you're not flowing. You're not in rhythm because you're so busy thinking being I obsessed with what I need. Yeah. That you don't understand that that obstacle, time, Brady, I began to understand at an early age that the things that was standing

in his way, opening up doors for him if he allowed himself to grow through it and not just go through it, to begin to see that if you're only getting, you're not even getting five reps, well, you better make that three. The greatest reps of all time because in practice training rehearsed to be a starter whether you're starting or not, to practice training rehearsed being in the NFL even if you're not, being so clear that this this this is motivation. The obstacle is it triggers change. Yeah. I believe you talked about that when you were doing your 100

or Marcus, really. Oh, yeah. Why do you think about that? You know, the idea, you know, there's opportunities inside every obstacle, you know, there's ways to get creative. There's things you could do. There's ways that this can spring you forward.

I think it's true on that level. And then it's also true on this deeper level, which is that, you know, okay, what is the, how is the obstacle the way when someone betrays you or when you blow out your knee and you never get to play again, right? There's still opportunities to be excellent, to be great, to be a good person, to be a great teammate, it's not necessarily that every obstacle helps you with what you were trying to do. It's that the obstacle has within it opportunities for you to be great, to be excellent in some form or another,

right? Not the one you wanted, not the one that's fun, not the one you were practiced in that you're good at. But sometimes it's still an opportunity. Necessity. Yes. Acceptance. Acceptance. And there's a necessity to change. Yeah. To create, to innovate. Yeah. Change comes because of stress The the Grand Canyon is stress. Yeah, sure. It's beautiful. It's under pressure so Your stories about people who we all know who it

Didn't work the way they expected and where they wanted it to go. And he ended up me. There's a story about this guy who John Wooden was the great coach at UCLA and he never played this guy and he hated John but he just hated him for four years. About a four of you he despised him. And that a guy is a multi-millionaire because he took all the lessons he learned from John and he talks about how he hated him. But he took everything he learned from him and turned it into an empire. And now he's a multi-millionaire giving speeches about John. Right, you think life should give you this. You think this is the direction

you're trying to go and you don't realize that actually this obstacle, which looks a lot more like a brick wall or a wrecking ball or whatever, you know, it's actually just pointing you in this different direction than that. If you go in that direction and you follow and you take what's there, many, many years later, you know, that's where the, oh, the obstacle was the way. Some would argue that no matter what God you believe in, it has a sense of humor. I was going to be in radio, television, and film. Certainly not a bloody social worker,

but somehow I was maneuvered into a half that I ended up working with giants. I know working with the names Crazy how many people I've worked with how many champions I've worked with how many people who were never champions who end up Running institutions and organizations. I've got a Intern in social work who is now the VP of Realtors Association of America, the National Realtors. And because of... No, and when we think about acceptance, we think of it as this kind of passivity or this

weakness, but no, you have to accept this door is closed to be able to go through this door that's opened over here. And if you obsess over the door that's closed, you miss all the doors that are over there talking to me, you're beckoning to you. Come on, try this out. Right, it's like controlling the control. Are you going to focus on all the things that are not in your control, which is by the way, most of the world and most of existence. And you're going to ignore that you control your thoughts, your emotions, your decisions, how hard you control so much. There is plenty still that is in your control, but you can only pick that up once you have

let go of the other stuff. And so that's why the mission is clear. I'll teach anyone that'll listen. That your mission is to train yourself to stay sane in the insane world. I love that. That's the perfect place to stop. Great. Thank you so much. Thank you, sir. This is amazing.

Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. an early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.