The Daily Stoic - Coach John Calipari on Stoicism and Realizing Your Potential

Episode Date: April 30, 2022

Ryan talks to Coach John Calipari about his love of Stoicism, being indifferent to winning and losing, becoming your best self, and more.Coach John Calipari is a Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer, has guided six teams to the Final Four, led one to a national championship and helped 54 players earn selection in the NBA Draft during his 30-year college coaching career. During Calipari's 13 seasons at UK, no coach in the NCAA Tournament has more wins (31), Final Fours (four), Elite Eights (seven) or Sweet 16s (eight). In advancing to the 2015 Final Four, Coach Cal became one of just three coaches all-time to make four Final Fours in a five-year span, joining Mike Krzyzewski and John Wooden as the other coaches to achieve that feat. Twice at UK (in 2012 and in 2015) his teams have won 38 games, tying his 2008 Memphis team for the most wins in college basketball history.LinkedIn Jobs helps you find the candidates you want to talk to, faster. Every week, nearly 40 million job seekers visit LinkedIn? Post your job for free at LinkedIn.com/STOIC. Terms and conditions apply.Go to shopify.com/stoic, all lowercase, for a FREE fourteen-day trial and get full access to Shopify’s entire suite of features. Grow your business with Shopify today - go to shopify.com/stoic right now.Sunday can help you grow a beautiful lawn without the guesswork OR nasty chemicals. F​​ull-season plans start at just $129, and you can get 20% off at checkout when you visit GETSUNDAY.COM/STOIC.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Coach John Calipari: Instagram, Twitter, WebsiteSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics. Something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with

your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. You've heard me rave like a million times before about one of my mentors and friends. The great coach, Ravling, who I had on the podcast. I think in 2020, I met coach, Ravling through Shaka Smart. It was then the head basketball coach at UT.

Now the head basketball coach at Marquette. And I got to know Ravelyn, he invited me to his Hall of Fame dinner, right when Ego was coming out and he gave away copies. And I assume that's how today's guest first heard of the books, sort of a surreal experience to watch someone get inducted into the basketball hall of fame, and then to have all the participants be given a copy of my book, I was like, what is this? But then a year or two later, I was putting out a different book. Maybe it was Conspiracy, and I was doing an event in LA, and co-traveling was there.

And I knew coach was connected. I knew he was a mentor to all these different coaches. I knew that they affectionately referred to him as the Godfather. But as we were sitting at this restaurant across the street from Book Soup, I knew that they affectionately referred to him as the Godfather. But as we were sitting at this restaurant across the street from BookSoup, I saw, you know, you put your phone on the table and sitting face up, and Coach's phone rang, and I saw who it was. I was like, you can get that. And it was Coach John Calapari of Kentucky, one of the great college basketball coaches ever, John Calapari of Kentucky, one of the great college basketball coaches ever at that point in the midst of an incredible run with his Kentucky teams.

And I saw it pop up on the phone and I was like, you know, I don't get it later. And that's how I knew coach was very, very connected. And that wasn't the only college basketball coach that rang in the course of that little dinner, all of which is to bring me to today's guest, coach John Calapari. wasn't the only college basketball coach that rang in the course of that little dinner. All of which is to bring me to today's guest coach John Calapari. He's a nasmuth memorial basketball hall of fame. He's guided six teams to the final four. He's led one to a national championship and he's helped 54 players earn selection into the NBA draft during his 30 year coaching career. He's known as a player's first coach helping people

achieve their dreams. He's also a brilliant marketer. Actually, that is something I wanted to tell you. So he's in one of my books. Let me pull this up. Where is Perennial? I use this story to tell people about Blurr, which is a big thing in publishing. And it goes like this, I'll tell a story about social proof that doesn't have anything to do with creative projects. But I think it serves as inspiration. This story was told to me independently by more than one college basketball coach. All of them were in awe of a move pulled by University of Kentucky coach John Calapari. Typically when a coach is named into the college basketball hall of fame, he gets up to speed for a few minutes, thanking friends and family and colleagues. In 2015, when Calapari was inducted to the Hall of

Fame, ever the brilliant recruiter, he decided to use his speech as an opportunity to make a statement to high school players who were thinking about what team to play for. He invited more than 60 of his former players, many of whom had gone pro to attend the ceremony and join him on stage, and in many cases he paid for their flights out of his own pocket. Instead of talking about all his accomplishments, he thanked them and made the speech about them and what they do on the court. The other coaches marveled at the subtle message Calipari was sending, play for me, and you can end up like these guys. That is the message we want to send to the people we're trying to recruit to our work, and we have to look for

creative opportunities to do it. Anyways, I'm a big Calipari fan. He's one of the most innovative, indecorated coaches in college basketball history, and he does receive some criticism. We talked about this in an interview for the so-called one in done players, but I don't criticize him for that because I myself, basically, a two in done college student. I did two years before I dropped out to become a writer. And when I speak at college teams, I refer to myself as such because I respect the position these guys and these women are in, which is when you know what you want to do, and when you're talented, when you're sought after, you have to make

tough decision. Do you continue your education, or do you go do that thing? You feel like you were meant to do. And I feel like Calipari's strategy and approach to this is not just pragmatic, but it's in some ways self-less, right right like his approach is what's best for the players Not what's best for the university and I think too often the universities put themselves first and then tell themselves They're thinking about the students during Calipari's 13 seasons at UK no coach in the NCAA tournament has more wins 31 more final fours four more more elite eights, seven or sweet 16s, eight. And in advancing to the 2015 final four coach cow became just three coaches all time to make four final fours in a five-year span.

Joining coach Kay and John Wooden is the only other coaches to achieve that feat. Twice at UK in 2012 and 2015 his teams have won 38 games and they tied his 2008 Memphis team for the most wins in college basketball history I was so excited to this interview. It was pumped. He you can see the energy he brings and I was excited to bring this one So you can go to his website at coachcal.com or you can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at UK coach Calipari and I wanted to thank Coach for taking the time. And he's been nice and generous. He posted a picture of him reading the obstacles the way several years ago on social media. I know he assigned Ego as the enemy to one or two of his teams over the years, as well as stillness is the key, I think Coach Rav for putting that all in

motion. And I think you're really gonna like this interview. I had a great time doing it. Here's me talking, Stoicism, strategy, marketing, realizing your potential, being indifferent to winning and losing, becoming your best self with the one and only, John, Kela, Par. I love the Muhammad Ali picture behind you, that's amazing. The one on the top is his favorite picture, was his favorite picture,

according to his wife Lonnie. The one on the bottom was in Life magazine. Yeah, he had the boxing underwater one, I love that. Which was all fake. He couldn't, like he told everybody, I train underwater, that's how I get my quickness. And, right, he can't swim. So if you look at that picture, he had to go in the shallow end and put his head under the water so that he could come up.

Because if it was in anything over his head, he can come up. Because if it was in anything over his head, he can't swim. Crazy. So he was a master, I think, like you, of marketing and getting inside people's heads a little bit. I don't know if I get inside people's head. I don't know if I market. I just try to see where trends are going.

And you just try to stay on top. So you're there. What's next, and how can I be first at it? Yes, yes, which is true in sports and business I think and life I would say. Well to start I wanted to start with someone that we both share a lot of love for the Godfather Coach Ravling. How do you know Coach Rav? I met him through shock a smart. He had me out when he was at Texas and Rav was visiting him and I got to see him and then we've been in touch ever since. I try to talk to him every couple of weeks. He's like one of my favorite people in

the whole world. He's got like three books going at one time always. He's sending me stuff daily. It calls me to congrats. It calls me to pick me up. He is truly a mentor. You know, you go through this thing that I go through. And only someone that has sat in this seat when you start talking about what you're going through, they know. You know, other people that, you know,

hey, I just want you to hear me out. You're like, what do you do for a living? Like, why would Nick Sabin or I, or anybody else, tell me what, and so with him, when he speaks, oh, I listen. When he talks to me about, you know, let's talk through this stuff, you know, and it's, you know, let's talk through this stuff. You know, I leave with a great feeling because he always say, how do I help you?

That's all he's one of those kind of guys. How did you meet him? My player in 1992 from UMass played on the USA team that he coached in the 19 and unders. Yeah, and met him there and when he was out of coaching, I flew him to UMass to talk to our staff. And it was the most incredible, he gave us one thing that I've used since then. You have to be each other's PR machine. You're his PR machine and him and him, and you are his PR machine, and you guys are his,

anybody that talks to you, you're their PR machine. Think about that, just what that does for your staff. Just that little nugget, rooting and supporting and putting the best face forward for everyone as part of the organization. People are going to ask you about the guy. You're ready and loaded. Man, he's unbelievable and here's why. You talk about his strengths. When everybody knows, when you're more for the other guy than yourself and everybody's in that mode, you're not like, what's the next job or I wanna be this title?

When you're all for each other, this thing rolls. And in most cases, most, that's been my staffs. And if it hadn't been my staff, I'd have to shake it up a little bit. Never really firing anybody in all my years, but I've helped guys get jobs. Like it's time. Yeah, I've been amazed at the different coaches

that I've talked to, to which he has been a mentor of all different levels. He seems to be the guy behind so many different guys, and I don't mean that in the gendered sense. There's plenty of women who he's mentored as well. He just seems to have this remarkable, like his coaching tree is the best coaching tree in the history of sports, I feel like. Well, he would hire division two coaches,

say this guy's a really good coach, I want him around me. He was always comfortable as a coach in his own skin and what he did and he wanted help. I'm only gonna be, and I think he was one of the first that would say, I hired people who were better in areas than I was. If I were weak in an area,

I would bring in a coach that was really strong in that area. Think about how much you have self-esteem and self-confidence you have to have to be that guy. And I've tried to live by that. I show around myself there. I've got a lot of coaches, but I show around myself with people who are strong in areas that maybe I'm not so strong.

My might calls me the ID man. And then everybody around me has to go do the figure out the ideas that I come up with. Sure. And do you think even that at this point in your career that there are people that you are turning to for advice or mentorship is itself probably a good lesson for athletes and young people? I think I've always been impressed with the way that people who are the best in the world at what they do have someone that they are looking up to that is better than them at something

and they're still like a student of that person. So Larry Brown, if you want to know like a kitchen cabinet for me, yeah Larry Brown, we'll talk once a week. He brought me on at Kansas. I worked for him for a couple years and then when I was fired by the nets, he brought me down as an assistant in Philadelphia to have me with him again and give me a start in my career again. Bob Rhotella, sports psychologist, unbelievable. It's been a 30-year friend of mine and a confidant and a mentor. He and I talk once every week or two.

In the season, It's more and then Ken Blanchard who you would probably say what? And Ken Blanchard and I know each other since my UMass days and your kitchen cabinet kind of changes Over time, but those guys that I just mentioned Have always been catalyst along with coach that I just mentioned have always been catalyst along with coach that I would say here are the guys that when I'm up against it you know and and they're always coaches that through the year Mark Fue and I have become great friends Jay Wright and I Tom Mizone I talk all the time you know it's the day when like Rick Barnes and I are dear friends.

I'm the one that told him you need to take the Tennessee job. I didn't think it was gonna beat me as much as he has, but I wanted him to take the job because I thought it was a great job for him and I was right. He and I play. I want to beat him, he wants to beat me, but when it's over, we've been friends for 35 years. There's not much of that anymore, right? It's, you know, let's meet, you know, let's, it's's not much of that anymore. Right, and it's, you know, let's meet, you know, let's go, it's just not much of that.

And that's why I like to be able to have guys that I know I can call, that'll pick up a phone that we can talk, some of it's laugh, like we're both buying. We just need to laugh, and I get off the phone feeling better about what I'm doing. Yeah, do you find that that's something you can look, you can identify in a player, like that sort of hunger to get advice or to learn or I'm just curious, like how do you look for someone who is, what are the signs in a young person

that they're going to be the type of person that sort of sees this as an unending journey that you're always looking to get better, that you can learn from anyone. Is that something you can spot or is it something that emerges over time? The best players that I've coached are all curious. They're just curious minds. They want to watch, they want to learn, they want to get better. They want to watch, they want to learn, they want to get better. Guys that are a little bit delusional, which means if you just play me more, I'll be fine. Okay, you're not going to get drafted, you're not going to be that guy. If you have to have all promises, it's going to be hard for you to make it and what we try to do here is

You tell them Somebody said to me. Okay, I got to ask you because I just got a full roster and I got a bunch of good guys Could you tell me if you don't mind how you do it? I said well it starts you better not have lied if you lied to anybody And you told every one of them the same thing that they're all going to be this guy. You're not going to be able to coach him because the minute they know, you lied. There's no trust. And in what we do with really good players, the minute you lose trust, you can't coach. They're going to know you really care about him and that you're honest. And then you can coach. But the first piece of that is, is

this guy a man of his word? Will he do what he says he's going to do? The other piece of it is, will you fight for what you want? Because, well, we're going to run every play for you and you're going to be in this, you'll be the center of attention. All right. Okay. Now you go to the Lakers. I hate to tell you, you're not going to be the center of attention. Alright, okay. Now you go to the Lakers. I hate to tell you you're not going to be the center of attention. They're not running plays for you. There are three other guys in front of you. As a matter of fact, there's probably seven. And that means you're fighting for scraps, fighting for scraps. Fight. Will you fight or will you pout? Will you fight or will you pal? Will you take what you want? Will you force that coach to play you more?

Well, he just just played me more not doing that now You force him to play you more by how you perform How do you play with confidence? I heard all this you you know, you got to be confident. Play cup. If you're competent, you could be confident. Sure. Not guaranteed. But if you're not competent, you're not going to be confident. It doesn't matter if I say you're okay. No coach, I just missed seven straight wide. I missed two layups. You're good. That nothing to do with me. If you get in the gym and work and build your own confidence and self-esteem, no one takes that away. When you're here, it can talk to you, you learn to fight. I hear all the stuff. Well, they're pros before they got there. You title a hero? Did you ever even hear of

them or Eric Blitz? Oh, you want me to go on? I can name 20. Not true. What they learn here is not that I have a magic one, your pro. It's the process, it's the culture, it's the demands, the standard you're held to. And John Lowe would say, he never promised me anything. Anthony Davis said, said it would be the hardest thing I'd ever do. And I wanted that chat. I mean, a guy that needs guarantees you ready? Right, they don't come here. You're going to get 25 shots. It's a different animal here. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life.

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Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. There's a line from the stoic epic teetis that I think connects to what you're saying. I'd be curious your thoughts on it. He says, it's impossible to learn that which you think you already know So if you come into it assuming that you know everything that all you need to be do given is your playing time and you'll succeed

You can't get better. You can't adjust. You can't fight because you think you already earned it And you're just gonna be resentful that you're not being handed it. I need you to do that again and I need that taped so I can play it to my team. You want to come in and be paid to do that speech. I get that too. I would love to come give that speech. I mean, I think that's, you know, we think confidence is the essence. That's the essence of what it is here. Well, could you see, please don't want to come here? Could you see, I mean, serious.

Yeah, of course. If you don't want to be challenged, you're not going to go to a place that challenges you. All right, you ready? My job is to make them uncomfortable. Their job is to be comfortable, being uncomfortable. And when you hit that, you're gone. I don't want to be uncomfortable though. I want to go and be comfortable playing. It's hard. My staff says you got to stop. We lost recruits because of that. And I said, you know what?

I've done this a long time the same way and you may be right I Maybe look I've started you ready for here Ryan. You don't mind. I yeah, it's called. This is a humble brag I guess we've started Three freshman a year since I've been to coach here So if you're a freshman and you want to start Start Why do I got to tell you You see it can be done. It's been done. You ready?

40 players 40 in my time in Kentucky and before that it was the same Second thing 50 guys have been drafted. You want to be drafted? Those 50 did it. I saw Nick Sabin said, we got $1.7 billion in showers, and I love coach Sabin. I mean, he and I talk all the time, not all the time, but I'll call him when I got something I want to ask him.

I call him before the NCAA tournament, didn't help me much. But what I will tell you is ours is three billion, and within the next two years, I think it'll be five billion in salaries, not endorsement money. Not, are you ready for this? We had about seven or eight play overseas, not talking about that money.

One of them, the Carrey Johnson's's making three four million a year in China So if that's significant money, too. I'm not even talking that so it's been done here But you got to take what you want You got to understand everybody's on a different path. So what it takes you two years. How about this awful thing? It took you three How about it took you four? You got a college degree and your name. Tell me. Yeah, but that guy went, he's on a different path. And that's another hard thing. They all want to, it's the micro wave. It's got to happen now. And then the people around him the same, it's got to happen now. And that's what we fight as coaches.

So what's the difference between confidence, which you're saying is important, and say ego, which I imagine, is a cancer in a team or in an organization. I'm going to give you something you've probably never heard of. Ego is the enemy. I like that. It's a good line. So I call that poison. It's poison. If you want to read the good stuff, then you better read the bad stuff. Like I don't want to read anything at my age now

and I never had, everybody says he reads everything. I don't. Now, the problem is, someone else will read it and do what? Tell your body about it. You know, and you're like, please don't even tell me. Some of it really good. I don't care. It makes no difference. But the ego part of this is you think I expect and deserve this because of who I am or where I came from or what I've done

It just life isn't that way and fate intervenes at times Some of it in my life has been so good. I'm like why? I mean, I wouldn't that kind of player. Were you a player, right? No, no, okay? But you're talking to NBA teams and got you didn't play. But everybody wants to hear what you say. You've been blessed. Yeah, of course. It is. It's amazing. And for me, the same. Well, how about Fade Intervines with one of your guys and he gets hurt and he's got to sit out the year? Well, it happened. Now your path may be slower, but ego has a way and pride has a way of coming back and biting you.

And if you recognize it, it's a good thing that it happened. If you don't recognize it, and that you're gonna excuse making blame everybody. It's not me. It's somebody else. You know what you're on that path. I say. You get on that path from the NBA to the G league and then to the G league you pop your mad to the YMCA league. So confidence is competence demonstrated performance. So you can be competent, but you get the game and your confidence is that thick. You can't get by a mistake or a misshot. On our team, guys will tell you, I take them out for not shooting but do you know why they don't shoot? They don't want to miss because they miss two in a row now I'm gonna pass up and open shot and drive it and charge or turn it over boom you're out why didn't you shoot the ball shoot the ball you're in games the ball goes to a guy before he catches it, shoot it, shoot it! Like, that means your confidence is like this and what happens is, other coaches are going to go through what I've been going through

because of this transfer portal. Blue teams. You coach your new teams every year. And you know what? That's what makes, how do you help them help themselves? Because if you're trying to do it for them, it's not deep enough. It's that deep. So I think the tricky thing about Ego is that it's often based on external stuff, right? That you're doing well, that people love you, that they like you. And then what happens when the shots don't fall your direction, when you're not getting the playing time,

when somebody says something mean about you, then you internalize that too. So you feel like a piece of crap because you're playing like crap. And you don't want that either. Right, and what I would tell you, they got to feel their feelings. Sure. Okay.

But they also got to recognize what's causing me to feel this way. But you got to feel like that last game, I wanted them to hurt, to grieve. I mean, there's nothing more important to me than having this program be the gold standard, that every year we have a chance. This is the first year one of my teams in my career has lost that double seed kind of game, that double digit seed.

And I have to deal with it. And so you want them to feel the pain of it so you don't wanna feel that way again. But the ego part of, I call it your delusional. The delusion of everybody loves me. This will never end. And being humble yet hungry. Be humble about it, but be hungry as heck.

And trying to get guys in a frame of mind, well, when they leave me, they can be one. Great teammates. Pat Riley said, the greatest compliment of your players and your league in Arleague, they're all great teammates. And I look around the league and that's I'm proud of that. They learn that stuff here. But the other side of it is, you know, you get carried away, believe me, the basketball gods will bite you. Be humble, yet be hungry. Well, you know, being a good teammate, the Stoics talk about this, if the chief task in life

is like, what do I control versus what I don't control? And you kind of always can, you don't control how tall you are, you don't control how much playing time you get, but you do control whether you're a good teammate or not, right? Like that is up to you always. And I think we often get distracted by these sort of things that are not in our control at the expense of things that are in our control, which ultimately I think make it a bigger difference over the long term. You know, I agree, but I would say the simple part of it is, if I care more about these guys, then

myself, and we all are in that mode where about each other, your team is going to be better than the pieces. If everybody is about themselves, you can't be a good teammate. I don't care. However, you want to say it, you have to be about the other guy and his success. And his success can't like bother you. Like you're joyful with his success. And the best teams I've had, that's how they've been. That makes sense to me. How do you think about culture in an organization where you don't have the continuity that you

might, if everyone was there for four years or however long. How do you think about keeping a consistency and a culture when the pieces are rotating more than they might have rotated in the past Well the first part of that is how you recruit So if you're promising the world to everybody it's hard to really have standards in a culture If you're making it clear that this is the hardest thing you're ever undertaken. It's not for everybody Every game you play is a Super Bowl Every player you play against wanted your scholarship. He wanted to be here. Are you ready to come to practice every day because you're ready for

this Ryan MBA sculpture in our practice? You're being evaluated every day. Are you ready for that? Well, I like to take a couple days a week off. Well, then your evaluation is, is he this guy or is he that guy? Who is he? I don't know who he is. I've seen him unbelievable. I've seen him so bad. He's not good enough to play in our league. Are you ready for all that? Are you going to hide? There are no cracks to hide in here. So when you talk about it, it's holding them to a standard. If you don't guard here, it's hard for you to play. You got to be able to guard somebody. We slipped at the end of last year, not offensively. Our offense was as good as

anybody in the country. We had made adjustments from one year to the next. We did things different. We were scoring third in efficiency in offense. Defensively we slipped the last five games. And if you guard well enough, they can't score enough to beat you. And that's what slipped. Well, you got to have a standard. The other thing is, have you ever coached a new team before? Now I'm just telling you with this transfer stuff every one of us are gonna have new teams every year. Yeah. What it's gonna be and it means like okay I don't have four years. Now I'll be honest I had veteran players. This is one of my oldest teams and I love coaching them. What

I was at UMass, I coached everybody for four years except Marcus Camby, coached him for three. What I went to Memphis, the one Wagner was my first quote, one and done, and I had a couple of one and done, but I also had guys at state three and four years. Now it became, you're here one or two years,

a couple of you guys three years four and it's now though you got teams that lost their whole roster like everybody left. New coach comes in or the same coach is there he's got all new guys. How do you do this now? What are the principles? We're gonna play fast. We're gonna be on selfish. We're gonna have five guys in double figures. Well I want to score 30. Alright, maybe we can score 120 a game. I don't think so. So, you're going to have to score the most of anybody's scores is 20. And then from there, it goes down five is six guys. One of the principles you go by, Ryan, I got to ask you, how the world did we have six guys drafted from two different teams? How would that happen?

I don't know. How does that happen? You got everybody shared and that's no six at all six at score 25 in a game at least once So everybody showed everybody wins and You're being evaluated different here numbers. Don't matter, you ready for this statement? Every team has a leading score. Even the one that's one in 26. So you could score nine points a game here and be a lottery pick.

So number, you could play 21 minutes a game. You ready? And be the number one pick in the draft, call towns. You could come off the bench and be an all star, Devon Booker. So is it ego? Ego is the enemy. Is it ego that you're playing for minutes and shots

and fame and this, or are you playing to get better? Are you playing to fight? Are you playing to learn to be a great teammate? If a player never fails, I'm afraid of that. How is he gonna react when he does? I want players to struggle some and have to fight through adversity because they learn about themselves.

I wanna watch a player play. Are you ready? When I evaluate, I want to see a bad game. How easy to the coaches to his teammates to the officials. That tells me more than anything, because you know what? At Kentucky, you don't have an easy game and you're going to play bad a couple of times. We can't fall to pieces. We can't break up as a team because you're not playing well, because they're going to be games you're not playing well. So those are what makes it a little bit different here.

Yeah, I remember I talked to John Snyder who's the GM of the Seahawks and he was saying that he doesn't like draft picks who haven't been through some form of adversity and then recovered from it because he's like, look, this is gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life, right? So we don't want it to be the first hard thing that you've ever done in your life, right? Like adjusting to life in the NFL is going to be extremely difficult. So if you have no experience overcoming difficulty or bouncing back from a bad game or a bad practice or a bad season, you're not going to, you're not going to, that,

that learning curve will kill you. So I could, I could see why you would want to look for people that have, have demonstrated the ability to bounce back from stuff. And they have a bad game. Yeah. So how do they respond to everybody around them? they respond to everybody around them and then play well. They took the shots or the play that lost the game. Well, they take responsibility. What I try to do here, if we lose, I will always take on the responsibility. The reason I'm doing it, even if it's not, and everybody knows, well, you couldn't have shot the free throws, or you, some people believe you, like, yeah, he's right, he stinks, he can't coach.

You know, you'll get that too. But the reality of it is it's a teaching tool for me. Yeah, there are times that it was me. There are times that it wasn't, but I'll say it was me. I want them to learn, it's okay to say, say I didn't do well and I cost us a game. It's okay. And if a young man they lose and he tries to blame everybody else or the family says yeah all these guys and I'm like no dude it was you. You missed the shot. You made the play. The other guy is they take it too hard I

Watched a state final game where the best player on the court missed a game winning shot And I know how hard he took it. I said use it as fuel Fuel No the next time you get it you can't wait. I asked Sam Kacell Sam played for me when I was coaching the nets and by the way I don't know if you know Ryan the nets fired me. Just, I've heard that.

That's out there. But we went to the playoffs and I looked at Sam and he did stuff late in games and I couldn't believe. And I said, Sam, you've made more game winning shots. How do you, what's your mentality? You ready? I'm not afraid to miss the game winning shot So now how many guys in that league of 450 aren't afraid to miss the game winning shot I

Handful Michael says I know you saw all my makes, but let me show you the games where I missed the game winner or miss that shot But that's fine. I'm not afraid to miss it. That mentality, that mental toughness, that being in that zone that I'm good in, the thought of missing never enters my mind. I try to tell these guys and try to talk to them that last game. Play to win. Quit worrying about losing. Just play to win. We'll know whether we want to lose here in a few minutes. Play to win. But when a kid's 18 and 19, it's easy for me to say that when I've coached a thousand games, maybe more than a thousand.

Something like that that I coached so many games that I know how this is. Just play to win. We'll see. We'll know where it's going. Yeah, it, back to me is what confidence is. The ability to take a shot, having missed that shot before and being okay with the outcome, whether it goes in or not. Just being a strong enough sense of self that you're like, I can ride this out, whether they carry me off in celebration or they boom me off the court, I'm me, and I'm comfortable being me, whatever anyone else outside me thinks.

How long does it take a player to get to that? It's hard. It's hard. And you've got to have some success too, I think, to realize, oh, it's not as magical as you think it is either, right? You're just like, when lose its life, you know, like, I think when my first book hits number one on the Neurotransmitceler list, the anti-climaticness of it also freed me up to take more risks in the future, because I'm like, either way, it's, you're still wake up and you're you, you know,

it's still life. I get it. I'll throw this to you the same way. We won the national title in 2012. The game ends. My wife is up on the stage with me. I said, well, we're done with that. Now, let's get on with business. Yeah, I mean it literally did not We've won more games in the 13 year more insane turning I can go on and on but because I'm about kids And because it's about development people say he don't care about winning and anybody that knows me thinks that is so hysterical That means there's something else bothering you about what I do So you're going to your go-to, which he doesn't care about winning. And a lot of times it's, these kids shouldn't leave. They should be at this school for four years.

And then my point is, what about your son that can leave and become, you know, make a half billion dollars after one? Well, that's different, that's my son. Everybody else's son should stay in school four years. So it might be, he should have all Kentucky players. So he didn't care about winning. He just wants to help kids and he wants kids

to be drafted and all this. While the truth be told, I went from the business of basketball to the business of helping families. My life became way easier. We won way more games. We went to four final fours in five years only been done by a handful guys We could have won a couple more national titles probably the team was too young one of them that started five freshmen But I accepted it because I felt good about what I was doing and how I was doing it

But that national championship made it so that they couldn't say well, he'll never win a national. No, I can't say that. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, he'll never win a right of best sell. Ever win already. But you go through this stuff where you're analyzed and you're you look at it and say, I got to be comfortable in my skin.

Not only them, if they know I'm comfortable in my skin, it's a little easier for them to be comfortable in their skin. Yeah, I relate to this sort of one and done, two and done players, because I left college after two years to be a writer. And there were people that told me I was throwing my future away that it wasn't going to work out. But, you know, if you love what, if you have a chance to go do the thing, you're going to college for, to go be a pro at what you do, it seems insane that for somebody else's peace of mind or somebody else's standards, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to stay away from that thing,

especially in a life that's so unpredictable where you could get hurt. The market could change. I mean, it's insane what people expect these kids to do. But that's why they'll say he doesn't care about winning because there have been players who have been top 10 picks that say to me what do you think and I say if you want to do which right for me and my family why don't you stay if you want to do which right for you and your family you probably should go your top 10 pick what are you going to be move three spots for go but the other side of it is a young man who may not be a first round or second round pick. As you know, I'll give you the numbers. 85% of the second

round picks. Don't make it. You know what their average length of career is. If you're a second round pick. Now much shorter. Hundred games. Wow. So two seasons maybe. Maybe well, maybe two seasons because you're playing 30 games. Wow. So two seasons maybe made well Maybe two seasons because you're playing 30 games. Yeah, right. You know, I play him much That's a fact that's a number when the NBA says they project you as the second round pick The direct NBA that comes to you with their evaluation They're right 97% of the time so if anybody tells you you going to be a lottery pick and they picked you to be undrafted, they're lying. They're lying. So, but some kids want to go anyway, right? And you know what I say, it's your life. I don't think you should go. And here's why,

but I'm with you. And then I work to get that guy in the first round and I've done it three or four times, where those guys went late first round, but that's your careers, which was their choice and they knew they got the right information. And I just want to know when I look into me or I feel good, that I'm not using somebody's child. But doesn't that, that goes back to trust you're talking about what kind of promises you make. I feel like when I hire someone, especially people who want to be writers, I'm like, what do you want to do? Where do you want to end up? Because you're not going to work for me for the next 30 years. This isn't GM, right? So if you can tell me where you want to end up, we can be honest with each other about how we can help each other get there I want to get something out of you, but I promise you you will get more out of me if we're clear on where you want to end up

But if we're lying to each other we pretend this is a family, you know We pretend that that this is all forever You know we're not being honest and probably both of us are gonna end up feeling disappointed or exploited Who do you think are our best ambassadors? and probably both of us are going to end up feeling disappointed or exploited. Who do you think are our best ambassadors? The players who succeeded in the program. Remember that definition? Not just succeeded now, like for basketball, some of them went on to other walks of life,

but how they were treated, there are biggest ambassadors and let me say this, a lot of times, the guys that weren't the stars appreciated more than the stars, because sometimes the stars think, you know, do anything for me. I only did, and not, I've had great guys believe me. My best players have been great guys,

which has made my job easy. Think about your best player being a jerk, and he's by far your best, and he... What kind of team do you have? How much fun is that every day? How about walking in, and he thinks, well, I've never had that. Never. But you do have guys that appreciate it more than others. And I'm trying to say, my guys, whether I'm talking to Derek Rose from back in the day or Marcus can be, the conversation doesn't

end with, do you know how much I appreciate what you did for me and my family? I'm saying it. And I love you because you have always been and it then it comes back the other way, coach, stop. You know, I mean, but that's how it's supposed to be and what you said is so true. I imagine the people that have worked under you that everybody had. The idea this is what we where we are why we're here and here's what we're all trying to do. You're just if they want to leave you you're like I, I'll help you. Where are you trying to go? I'll make the call. And for the rest of their lives, they're with you. They're your ambassadors out there. You worked for who? How is he? Is he a good guy? Like I don't read in his books, but is

he? Is that really him? Or now, all of a sudden, you sudden, you get where you're looking around like stuff is coming at you and positive things, and it's from your ambassadors. You try to do it with staff, you try to do it with players. You're trying to, I've always said this, if I'm doing what I'm supposed to, I want a thousand people in my orbit to say without me, they say this, without me, none of this gets done. A thousand. I don't care. And there could be some to take the credit without me it doesn't get done.

But now we brought a bunch of people in and they're all with the same mindset and they know what we're trying to do. Here at Kentucky, we wanna compete and win national titles. First thing is, you gotta be in the hunt every year. Yeah. Now, if someone was gonna win nine and 10 in a row, like sometimes our fans think we should

and I'm fine with that. I love our fans. But that would be John Wooden back in the 70s when you played four games. And he deserved to win him. He was better than everybody. In my mind, the best coach, maybe in any sport ever, that's my mind. Probably, yeah. But that being up at bat is what this is about. Yeah.

Do you, are you able every year to have your team in the hunt to win it? Sometimes Virginia, 16 beats a one, 15 beats a two us, Duke Syracuse, Tommy is gonna call me right after the game, said that happened to me, a 15 beat us. I was a two, stuff happens. But are you up and back? And that's what you do when players trust you,

and they know you care about them. And at the end of the day, you'll do right by them. Yeah, I've gotten to know RC Buford here a bit in Texas. And I remember he had me to a game and I was taking the elevator up to his suite. And I noticed that the elevator operator had a championship ring on. And I said, whoa, where'd you get that?

And they said, oh, when the spurs win, everybody gets a ring. Like everybody in the whole organization gets a ring. And I think that's the same idea to be in contention every year to have a culture. It's not just who's on the court, like who the star player is, but does everyone feel like they're part of something

that's going places that has a set of standards and then also are their rewards if you get there. To me, that's what a winning culture looks like. And I've said this for years and years, coaches win basketball games, administrations win championships. That means everybody's involved. Everybody from top to bottom is binding.

If you don't have the facilities you need, administrations not bought in, they're just not. If you don't have what it takes to win a championship and you are at the lowest end of the Totem pole in your league, don't, when I was trying to win a championship, we're just playing a season. Coaches win games. You want to win championships? That's administrations. Yeah, I've been amazed to it, I think people don't understand the degree to which the coach is over, is the CEO of an enormous, you know, an enormous organization.

But then there's also the board of directors above them and investors and it is this enormous organism. And you have to be able to manage not just down, but also up, right? And I think that is a skill not a lot of people have, the ability to manage up, to get buy-in from those people who have a million other things going on. That's probably just as hard as figuring out what calls to play. Having everyone bought in of how we're gonna do this, what we do, and then doing what you say, I remember I'm at you mass and back in the day they had this prop 48 thing

so unfair and ratio in every way and you could only get on a campus and and and we let you get on campus but you're prop 48 you can't play it was just a bad connotation and the university had never taking a prop 48 and I said if I take this kid And he does not graduate. I'm fine. Don't let me do it again But if this kid comes in and he's doing his work and you look and say wow Well, we ended up having five Prop 48 said all graduated which showed you the rule wasn't right, but it also showed the university that they could trust what we were saying.

It was more than just basketball. Here, we give out lifetime scholarships. So if you come here and you leave, long as you leave in good academic standing in a lifetime scholarship. And we have guys coming back from John Wall, the Carly Johnson, Julius Randall. I'm not talking like, well, he didn't make it. No, these guys are coming back, chipping away. Some of them left in two years, some of them in three, guys have come back to get degrees. So the school knows, wow,

everybody leaves our program in good academic standing. So they did what they were supposed to. They didn't just come here and play basketball and eight or nine of them have already started their way back. We've graduated 24 out of 24 in my 13 years or 25 out of 25 that did not either finish their time here or graduated, I think five graduated in three years, but they trust that This is the kids understand you're here to be curious. You're here to learn if you're curious You'll be a hell of a player if you have the talent. If you have that base ability, but not being curious, like go back to the room and play video games and think, it's hard to make it. You're not going to sacrifice and I've spent enough time.

You're not thinking enough. You're not curious enough about where, how about us coaches right now? The game is changing in the last three years like crazy you know I brought in dribble drive back in the day Vance Wahlberg and went out to junior college the whole story I brought it to college basketball then about five years ago I brought in the position list this this thing is there's not gonna be a point guard and you shoot We're all everything and now you're looking at this game and it's even changing from there Where guys would run Actions now some teams are doing everything through one guy and we move off of that other teams are doing things off an action and only creating Closeouts and that's what they attack and they play off that closeout. Well it's changing. Some guys are doing strictly

pick and roll with their guy and we're playing off him. I mean if you're not curious you fall behind this stuff. Some of it is I try to read tea leaves. Where's this going? Now, I'm gonna be honest with you name-membered you like this and the transfer portal I'm not reading the tea leaves very well. I don't know where this is going right now. I mean, I'm not liking it I Don't like it for the kids not the NIL money and all that the transfer portal where you don't like it for the kids, not the NIL money and all that. The transfer portal where you don't have to fight, the minute you smell something you don't like you leave.

I go to another AAU team. I went to three AAU teams and three colleges. Okay, you're going to draft that guy. He didn't run at the first sign of trouble or someone did something more for it. I just don't like it. I don't have the answer to how we control this. I just shouldn't even say control, there is no control, but how we deal with it to make it so that it,

how about academically, you change three schools. You ever gonna get a degree? That's not a recipe for success. Not in academics either. Right. If you remember it's likeness, how do we make it so we're not, it's not a recipe for success. Not in academics either. Right. If you remember it's likeness, how do we make it so we're not, it's not inducement. We do collectives. So everybody puts their money. Who decides who gets what?

If you're in football, it's three years. The kids don't leave for three years. The kids kind of expensive. I mean, you know, it's not just that one, you get the next one and the next one. How do you do it through charities? Is money going to charities or the kids? I mean, you got to give 50. I don't have all the answers. I know how we're doing it here to try to make it so that it's a business and a kid and they're out there on Instagram and other ways that you can get

in touch with them. Go through compliance, look at contracts, let them be cleared and go do what you need to do. But I still don't, I don't know. I mean, I'm here, kids are putting their name in the portal to see what kind of NIL deals are out there. You don't come to Kentucky for NIL. Even though we should have the best NIL program because we're Kentucky. But you don't come here because of that. You come here for the three billion that you get by pointing in that league. Now, it's nice to name image, but you don't come here. What's the name name? What can I make here? What can you make here? Well, Anthony Davis is going to make about 500 million.

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And you can get 20% off at checkout when you visit getsunday.com slash doughock. That's 20% off your custom plant at getsunday.com slash doughock. It's the marshmallow test. Do you want to get paid now or later? Right? You want one now or you want two later that the ability to delay gratification is key They want both though, right? They want it. I want it now and I'm gonna get it later and you say

well I'll give you so you might be giving you numbers. Don't worry 63% of the scholarship players here get drafted It's pretty good. What pretty good? What's the next level of what you just said? It's ridiculous. If anybody's at 10 or 12% go there, go to that school of that 63%.

75% go get second contracts. Well, that is ridiculous. That's why you come here. Very hard. Not going to be given to you. You're not promised the world. You're going to be with 78 other guys or just as good as you.

It's what it is. But that's why not every kid will come here. I needed marshmallow. I need a marshmallow. I need it. I want to do what you're saying, but I don't want to go through that. You're making me walk through that stuff. I'm going to walk around and let's see, a lot easier, but I want to get to the end result.

Some have, but not as well as our guys. So it sounds like what you're really talking about though is the sort of constant need to adjust for change, which is a fact of life, right? Everything is always being reinvented. There's this great expression. We never step in the same river twice, right? Because the river is changing and we're changing. I've got to imagine you do this long enough.

You can barely even recognize the league that you were in at the beginning of your career. So, you know, ego and confidence come into play there because if you expect it to revolve around you and stay the same, you're gonna be disappointed. And if you're not confident in your ability to adjust and accommodate and figure out how to win in that new world,

it's also gonna make quick work for you. I would say in terms of this, you stick with your principles. Everything else changes. Yeah. I mean, I'm just telling you how we play different things we do. Here's where my issue is What we're doing defensively stick with the principles even though the schemes are different right what are we gonna do on offense There are changes. They're more for out and five out

But the principles stay the same how fast how on selfish Five guys and double figures, you know the star players gonna get the guy that shoots the best. You won't believe this. Gets the most shots. I mean, it's not brain surgery. If you can't shoot, you're not going to take the most shots. So the other side of that is beginning to change because of the transfer portal, name image and like this. What are being told to the kids? I try to tell kids, do your homework. Do we need to adjust in our approach? Even though we still get one of the best classes every year, we've missed on some guys the last three or four years.

Did we go after the wrong guys? Do we, you know, we just, I just got to keep evaluating because if you want to succeed, you probably got to change. Yeah, the queen of England has an expression that she loves. If things are going to stay the same, everything's going to have to change. Right? And so I think that it's how do you stay at the top? So keep your position. That means essentially everything has to be up in the air except the principles, the timeless stuff that can't change. Carl Towns, after he played the first game in Memphis, played great, he rebounded to buy some grab it. I said, I love that you're grabbing balls with two hands, rebounded. He said, when I rebound with one hand, I hear your voice. Two hands! Because you know, that's one of my pep peeps. It's one of my principles that I'll never change. It doesn't change. But for me, changing and being ahead of the curve, what's next,

how can we be first, has always been what I've lived by, yet like this year. So we lose that game. More than over time, there's things could have, there's things could have should have would have but if we win the game There's a good chance we're in the final four Now with a brand new team with a veteran team How many things would you change? There are things in adjustments and tweaks You should have called a timeout that last play when 99% of the coaches would never call a timeout on I just watched

Boston win the game with the nets where they just Boston or net score in Boston takes it no time out running shoot a lap win a game So you most though, but that all comes into question now because you lost so you also have to be level headed Tommy Amaker and I sit next to each other in the final four. I said yeah, there's a lot of things I got to just he looked at me He said hey You miss free throws. You lose it over time. They ended up being good. They beat Purdue. They they were good and You're trying to take no if you were here you and I would have a different talk we'd be having so you got to be aware that you can't get caught up

in all the stuff that's out there and around you you just got to say okay what's next my problem is I'm not reading tea leaves on this one. It's, I'm a little bit like, I'm not sure. Where's it going with Cousinist stuff? Yeah, but that goes back to your advice to players. It's like shoot the ball. Don't over think it's shoot the ball, right? Just because you missed, you know, it might have been a great shot.

Might have been a great shot. Was it your book that I read fail fast? No, but I did write a book called The obstacle is the way, which is that sometimes, what's the read, which I read? And failing fast, I'm telling them early in the year, do things you think you're capable of doing. Let me see it.

Yeah, just a quick story. So I heard Jamal Murray, and when I said that to him, he was going hard left one practice and got tripped and was falling and before he hit the floor He flipped it up lefty Tomorrow you nuts You just threw the ball with your left hand. You almost run. I can make that shot You can't make that shot. It's a coach. I can make that shot He is one of the most confident kids that I played. I'm watching him in the bubble when they were playing in the playoffs and

he was unbelievable. Another max contract guy went left tripped, boom through one and it banked in and I called him after the game and I said I can't believe it. He hit me back. I told you I could make that shot. I mean, so failing fast is part of this. And even for me, like I'm literally, I'm a guy that gets going and if I don't like it, we're moving in another direction, including offensively, defensively, but also recruiting. If I go see a kid and he was disrespectful to his grandmother or mother, I'm done. Why'd you bring me here? You should have known. You didn't do your homework. You didn't do you didn't do the background if he's disrespectful mom or grandma? You know respecting us. You know we're out. So there are times that you make adjustments or I watch a kid play and I go I can't help him.

He is what he is. I don't see anywhere where I can do this, and we'll walk away because I do want it to be about both parties. Yeah, I'm getting that way with my writing because I work on projects for people and I go, look, here's how I think you should do it. I'm not saying I'm right, but here's how I would do it, and it's the only way I can do it. So we can work together or not, right?

And I think part of confidence is sort of, it's not just knowing your strengths and being confident in them, but also knowing your weaknesses, your preferences, where you want to end up and being able, like at the end of the day, it's about making decisions. Can you make decisions and feel good about them and then move on? And live with the results. Yes. If you're doing it from your heart, you're doing it from a well-thought and feel good about them and then move on. And live with the results. Yes. If you're doing it from your heart,

you're doing it from a well thought out position. Right, this was given to me, I'm 29 years old or 28. I just get to UMass job. My first job. You know what I got the job? No one wanted the job. They went down the list and I got the job? No one wanted the job. They went down the list and I got the job. Yeah. They were the losing his program, fifth losing is of the 80s. You know what that means?

Like there's a bunch of college programs for a decade, the fifth losing is Pat Nardelli was from the town I grew up in, Moon Township, Cory Atlas, PA. And he said, Cal, I'm gonna give you some advice. He was a businessman in our town. I had strip malls and did some different things. And he said, you can have a bad deal with good people, stuff happens. But you can never have a good deal with bad people.

I don't care what it smells like, tastes like, think like, looks like, don't do it. You walk, whether it's your staff, whether it's players, if you go an interview for a job and you look at this dude and say, not a good guy, but I'll make it a no. Walk, run, sprint, get out. And I've kind of tried to live by that. No, there's an ancient expression, character is fate, right? And so if you get someone with bad character, bad traits, whatever it is, sometimes it works out, right? Sometimes you get one good, two good winning seasons

or you make a little money with the person, but inevitably it comes back to haunt you. It's never worth it. Short-term, maybe long-term, never. And you always say, I knew it, and I didn't anyway. What was I thinking? Mine is, if my wife says it's a bad idea, it's a hard pass, hard pass, you know?

Because 100% of the time time when she's been like, I don't like that person, I don't trust it, it's not a good idea. And I said, you don't know what you're talking about. Those are the ones I regret. The, my wife is a princess. Like she's the princess. She, and what I say to her all the time is,

when I die, I wanna come back my wife. Just tell your wife, my wife's different that way. I love it. Coach, this is amazing and a true honor and I'm going to text RAV as we're done and I can't wait to meet you in person one of these days. Thanks Ryan and I read all your stuff. You're good. You're helping the world. You're doing God's work when you do the stuff you're doing because what we all have is this brain is the same. What do you do with it? How do you expand it?

How do you make it curious? How do you think different? And all the stuff you're writing and doing, you're helping a lot of people. And the crazy thing, I kind of know who I've helped. You don't even know. I mean, you have no idea. But I bet you get letters and emails and different things that make you smile. Always. It's the ultimate reward, right? More than success or money. It's like, did you make it? This is what Rav says,

are you making a positive difference in people's lives? That's success. And you are, and I'm jealous that you get to help more people than I help. No way. But I'll take the compliment and I appreciate it. I can't wait to see it. Thanks, thanks, Frank. Thanks so much for listening.

If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.