The Daily Stoic - Converting a Stoicism Skeptic with Novelist Amy Shearn

Episode Date: November 11, 2020

Ryan talks with author Amy Shearn about her own journey with Stoicism, how she and Ryan both wrestle with the concepts of Stoicism in a modern context, the role of women in Stoicism, and more.Amy Shearn is an American author and essayist. During the coronavirus pandemic, Shearn became fascinated by Stoicism; she wrote about her experience learning about, grappling with, and ultimately accepting Stoicism in a popular Medium article. Shearn has written in venues like The New York Times, Slate, Jane Magazine and more; she published her most recent novel, Unseen City, in September.This episode is brought to you by Neuro. Neuro makes mints and gums that help you retain focus and clarity wherever you go. Made with a proprietary blend of caffeine, L-theanine, and other focus-building compounds, Neuro’s products are great for anyone who needs help focusing in these trying times. Try out Neuro’s gums and mints at getneuro.com—and use discount code STOIC at checkout to save 15% on your order.This episode is also brought to you by Native Deodorant. Native Deodorant is an amazingly effective green, vegan deodorant that actually works. It comes in several amazing scents like cucumber and mint or lavender and rose, and doesn’t use harmful compounds that plug your pores. Native Deodorant 100% risk free to try because of its 30 day return policy and free shipping and exchanges. Visit nativedeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC to get 20% off your first order.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Amy Shearn:Twitter: https://twitter.com/amyshearnInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/artofthelonghaul/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amyshearnwritesYouTube: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/572102.Amy_ShearnSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoke. For each day, we read a short passage designed to help you cultivate the strength, insight, wisdom necessary for living the good life. of necessary for living good life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us at dailystoic.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward.

Listen to Business Wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode, The Daily Stove Podcast. Probably, I don't know, every few months I get an email from a reporter who's doing a trend piece about stoicism, and invariably, I can see the direction of the piece from the questions alone. It's usually how silly is it that these white guys in Silicon Valley are studying stoicism or what's with these crazy athletes? So interested in ancient philosophy, or sometimes the pieces are a little bit more about me, and I can tell they're sort of trying to see if there's something behind the

curtain, if this is somehow related to my earlier work on medium manipulation or whatever. So I'm somewhat cynical about these pieces as they're happening. I'm always surprised that the author is doing it. It doesn't seem to me that anyone went to journalism school and then attacked people for studying philosophy, but such as the world, as we actually talk about a little bit in lives of the Stokes, there's always been a sort of a cynical, satirical take on the Stokes, dating back as far as cliantees and chrysipus. But I also know from a media standpoint, like sort of all press is good press. It's not a big deal. I don't really, I don't know who these pieces are talking to,

and the impact is probably largely positive. But anyways, when I got one a few months ago from Amy Shurina, an editor I know at medium, where I often publish my writing. I was at least somewhat hopeful, it would turn out well. She asked a few questions about how do the Stokes feel about political engagement, what about resignation, are they resigned at the status quo? They were interesting questions, and I actually, I just pulled it up, I was gonna read some, she said,

I'm writing a little something for the site about trying to explore stochism, I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions. Namely, she says, as a modern stoch, you believe that like ancient stochism says, everything is governed by divine logic, and our actions are essentially faded, that your actions don't affect outcomes.

She says, I'm also having a hard time with the stoch idea of controlling your emotions and not worrying about what you can't control. Just stoicism, say, for example, not to protest or get involved with causes or vote since everything was faded. In other words, how does a modern stoke interact with a modern world?

So anyways, I actually like to do my interviews over email because then there's always a record. But we ended up going back and forth and I didn't think much of it. And then the piece came out and it was awesome. It was really great. The headline is a beginner's guide to Stoke Philosophy. But what I loved about the piece

is that unlike the people who are just sort of like the wallflower judging the people who are having fun, Amy actually like explored stoicism and she got serious about it. And she took some online classes and she read the books and she talked to the experts and she even got one of the four virtues coins or she carries with you.

And she was going through, not just what everyone is going through with the pandemic, but she was also going through a separation from her husband. She is in the middle of putting on a new book, which I think should be out by the time you're listening. Her new novel Unseen City is out. But as a writer, she also wrote a book called How Far Is The Ocean From Here, and a novel called The Mermaid of Brooklyn. So as a writer and a journalist, she's also just engaged in a profession that has its ups and downs and difficulties. So I was just so encouraged by the piece.

I loved it. I thought I was really open-minded. It's sort of, let's you see stoicism from a new set of eyes. I think often looking at things that you're interested in from the eyes of the beginner can teach you something about it. So I wanted to interview Amy and just talk through not just stoicism, but I think she's a great example of how we can explore introducing

people to stosism, how we can talk about stosism and women, because that's obviously that there does tend to be a bias towards the masculine elements of it. And we kick around a whole bunch of other conversations. We had some technical difficulties at the beginning of it. I think my mic was going out, but then it got fixed. So if there's any audio, that's my apologies. But anyways, we'll go out to have Amy on the show. You can check out AmySherenWrites.com. You can see her books there.

The new and unseen city novel is out now. And check out her work on Medium. She's in Contributing Editor to Forge, which is the publication I tend to publish most of my stuff at. But I think you can see me at justmedium.com. Slash Ryan Holiday, I don't know. But Medium's great. They've been a great supporter of my work,

and published some pretty great stuff about stoicism as well. So I'm excited for you to listen to this interview. And I'll talk to you soon. I'm here, so I loved your article, and I think what I loved about it is that it went in the exact opposite direction that I tend to watch these articles, though, which is that someone is interested in stoicism, or they see that people are interested in stoicism, but then the bloggy sort of internet journalism

tendency would not be to come around at the end and go, hey, this is sort of vaguely interesting or valuable. It would be to say like the most viral of the takes is like, this is dumb, this is a scam, this doesn't work, like how ridiculous it is, it's not to say like, oh, I actually learned something. Oh, well, thank you for saying that. And trust me, that's how I thought it was going to go to, honestly. But I didn't even leave to hear you liked it because you're such an important part of Forge. and I had a moment, you know, when I was sort of pitching this piece, I was like, am I is Ryan Hudd? Are you going to be mad at me?

But then I thought, you were a stuck, you probably are super chill about it. But I really did have so much skepticism about stuces and when I started and then I found that, you know, like almost everything in life, I guess, once you dig below the surface and really give it a little time and thought it's actually super interesting. So fine, I admit it. You're right. Fine. Well, why do you think you had so much skepticism? I've always been curious. That's not the reaction that I would anticipate. So I'm curious why the skepticism. That's a good question. So I think, I came to a forge,

which is a personal development publication, where we're always trying to arm our readers with tools to live a better life. And I kind of come from the Women's Magazine world and Women's Publications where the way into sort of living your best life and really discovering who you are and being happier, feels to me like the opposite of the stoic approach.

It's just, it's like about how can you make your life easier and what can you say no to? How can you better boundaries? It's just like a different mindset. And I think I don't think I really gave stoicism much thought until I got to Forge and it's for whatever reason from the beginning of Forge, our most popular pieces are about stances. And only they should say, our stances and stances and pieces always do really well with medium readers, with on that social media, just everywhere.

And I was just sort of mystified, like it seemed still don't get mad at me. It seemed really boring. I was just like, what is it? It's, and it also seemed very male. I can't even imagine how much I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing.

I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing what I've been doing. I've been doing that I came with some bias because my ex-husband was super into stoicism. So I was like, ew, you know what?

Ew, all you guys reading the meditations, no thanks. And I will also admit that I was conflating it in my head with kind of lower case S-osism, meaning just sort of stiff upper lip, I'm not going to share my emotions kind of lifestyle, which as you know, and as I'm sure your listeners know, of course it's not. And so then I thought, well, okay, I can kind of see why our readers like it. I get the, and you're very good at distilling sort of the takeaways of that are relevant to everybody's life. Like, here's what you can control. Here's what

you can't control. How can you use this mindset to deal with this crazy world we're living in? But I sort of had that thought of like, okay, I can see how that's good for other people, but what could possibly say to me? There's been so many sort of trend pieces or articles about it that over the years, and they're almost all universally negative. And they're universally negative in this sort of weird, like this weird take that I've never understood that I'd be curious, maybe you could explain to me. It's always like, look how stupid these people are

for like trying or look how weird these people are for like taking something seriously or like, or they're trying to go like, but these people work at these large companies. So obviously it's hypocritical. I've never really gotten this weird, like I've never really gotten the interpretation that like, I don't like Silicon Valley. So if people in Silicon Valley are interested in something, it must be bad. Because to me, it's like,

isn't that exactly what you would want them to be learned? Like, like what name something Like, what names something worse than them reading about an ancient philosophy that has all these sort of like prescriptions and principles are supposed to be found. I've never got like that. Yeah. I guess I just don't, like, I can't imagine myself writing a takedown of people who do yoga even if I don't get it because it seems like you're into it. Good for you. Right. I mean, it sounds like it's a couple of different things. And I think there is like the counter take is just an easy way to write something, you know, whether it's about stosism or anything.

You just look at something that it's like the, you know, 15 year old inside of all of us that wants to be like, oh, everybody likes that thing? Well, here's why it sucks. And it's like a little bit of self-protection, almost I think that sort of attitude in like a weird, I think unhelpful way. But I think you're right that, and that's what, once I started to dug into it a little bit, what I found so sort of charming

about the sort of stoicism community and also really compelling about it is that there is this real sincerity to it. And there is a real desire to figure out what life is about and figure out how we can live better. And, um, maybe something about that makes people uncomfortable because it is so, it's so sincere.

No, I heard a great quote recently that was like cynicism is a form of cowardice. And that, like, that totally struck me as sort of summing up the times that we live in it. And I think as you're right as a writer, it's extra tempting because it's like to to endorse something, you have to put a little of yourself out there to say that something sucks. You're not at all on trial. That's right. Yeah, and you're not you don't have to make yourself vulnerable or potentially be wrong by saying, you know, this thing is actually really meaningful or the sort of hating on Silicon Valley part of it, I think is like you said, it's so interesting because it's like, okay, well, if these people have a lot of, if you're up slept because the people who sort of have a lot of maybe money and power and influence are trying to engage in philosophy, I mean, it kind of, there's like an interesting

subtext there, which is I think a belief that that philosophy or trying to think about things more deeply or trying to improve your life has to be separate from the world that we live in. And if it's not, and it's engaged in the actual world we live in, then there's something insincere about that. You know, like that's a really weird head game that I think America has. And as you remind me when I was writing my piece, and I talked to John Robertson about this too, Stoicism has always been really engaged in real life. And it's been appers and leaders and people who are really involved in, I don't know,

every day real life and living life it's sort of like a high level of success. Like, you know, like it's always been all mixed up together. Like for lots of you, doesn't have to just be for people, you know, sitting alone on a mountaintop kind of thing. Well, I want to come back to that because I did, I did sort of remember that from your questions. I'm curious as you decide to sort of explore stoses and what's going on with you.

It sounded like you were going through a rough time. Oh, yeah, so it was a, I mean mean I know I'm not alone and say it's just been a hell of a year. I'm over it. Can I just call it? Actually we just had an interesting piece on Forge that was like you know what? This book spoke as a then 2020, nothing magical is going to happen. It's just the world we live in. It's not a curse to hear, but right now the years are just made up words we have for units of time.

Like it's not like it's not like anything changes when when December rolls into January. Oh, so let's say that. No, it's true though. Yeah, but for me personally, not to take the pandemic personally, but so I just I had split from my husband and moved out into my own place in February. February 1st, like how is that for timing and?

Sort of just getting used to everything settling in. And then this whole pandemic situation started starting from March 13th, which I will always remember because it was Friday the 13th of course. My kids were home from school. And it kind of just sort of like everything has felt so nuts for so long. has felt so nuts for so long. And so in one of those moments where I was like, okay, I need something. I know about meditation. I know about yoga. I've tried all these things.

Could it be that all of these four readers are onto something that stoicism could actually be useful and interesting? Turns out our readers are some first smart, which I knew, but I had to kind of dig below that sort of first, you know, two-double version of modern stoicism to get to the really kind of like weird parts, which were of course what interested me the most. But it's also it's like anything. You have to be in a moment where you're when you're open to things and you're you're looking for an answer.

Yeah one of my favorite expressions is when the student is ready to teach your appears, but I think what's weird about stoicism is like like okay like let's say yeah you're interested in yoga or you're interested in meditation. It's like really easy to do those things, right? Because it's like, you go to a class or you download an app. I think, and this has been tricky as a writer, but like what's weird about stoicism is on the one hand,

it's very practical. And on the other hand, it's very, like, I don't wanna say a femoral, but it's not like a thing that you do, like there's not like, okay, here's your, like it's like if you want to get sober and you're interested in trying AA, you go to an AA meeting, right?

Like there's not really that first doses, and so where, like where did you start? What did you do? I know, first doses of real a pain they ask, be honest. Like as soon as I started writing this piece, I was like, what have I gotten myself into? This is kind of actually hard to commit to. And something that really helped me was,

there actually is, I feel like a slight iteration of that first stossism, which is that will stir like weak, slight iteration of that first-geosism, which is that the stoic weak cartoon thing. I feel like that was like the, for me, it worked as like a dummy's guide to stoicism because I thought same, you know, I sort of dove in and started reading everything, and I took an online class in ancient stoicism and I sort of had all these notes and I was still like, how do I do it? What do I do? And this historic week, I was doing, you know, a synchronously. I just had like an old PDF of, I don't know if from the program from a couple

of years ago, I think that it really helped because it made it really clear. You know, you read this meditation in the morning and then you You know, you have like a thing to do every day whether it's Take a walk or do some sort of Reflection it reminds you to journal, which I found really helpful and to wait I think what I found most helpful is keeping a log of sort of every moment of discomfort in your day and then kind of almost rating it. Like how much control did I have? How much control did I think I had? What were my emotions? How did I deal with it?

That is super helpful, I think, for picking apart, you know, how many of my daily struggles were completely in my head. And I feel like that felt really solid and helpful. I tried to interview you. A bunch of philosophers who are the most fun to interview, as I learned and as you've probably learned, while philosophers are super happy to talk about philosophy as, as I learned and as you've probably learned, wow philosophers are super happy to talk about philosophy as much as you want. And yeah, but but their iteration is much more the history and sort of the academics and here's how to think about it.

What do you feel like surprised to them? When a good question. to think about it. What do you feel like surprised to them? What a good question. I was sort of making fun of your medallions that you saw. I'm the new Cirque.com. Sorry. And I was like, Oh, this is hilarious. I'm gonna get one. And then I loved it. I love it. I have it with me right now.

I have it all the time. And I thought, oh, right. Of course, and that surprised me that I got so into it, but also that something like that, you know, a really solid reminder like that actually helps in this world, and especially in pandemic life where it feels like everything I do is online through my computer to have something a solid reminder of sort of where your heads out, what you're trying to remember, how you're trying to focus your attention with every decision you make is actually super helpful and I'm so delighted by it, which is like I love hearing that so much because I'm sorry I'm so much because go ahead. No, this is a sign I love hearing that for a couple of reasons.

One, obviously, I came up with the idea of the first quince because I wanted it. I wanted it. I wasn't like, hey, what would sell really well? I was like, you know, it'd be cool. I want to get this. And then obviously if I make a bunch of a middle-pageer or me making one myself. But the inspiration was like when you look at all these like ancients, the first coin

we made was a moment to Mori one, when you look at all these ancient paintings, there's always like skulls in them and then it was sort of realizing like, oh, that was, you know, the idea of moment to Mori like this was a tangible thing. And I said, it's probably inappropriate or weird to have a school on my desk. So, what is a version of that I could have? And I did it. And it's, you're right, having something you touch, having some physical reminders is really nice

like in our digital world. The thing, and not only the schools and paintings, but it's like, why did people have family crests? And why did they have segment rings? Like, they had these things because it's actually, it turns out it's important to remind yourself of what you believe, even though you'd think you'd already know it.

But the weird, I'm curious about that reaction you had because like, that's another thing that I've had trouble understanding. Like, people get so mad at things exist, or that they're all that I just never understood. It's like, you don't have to buy it. Not only do you not have to buy it, if you don't want it, it doesn't need to exist to you.

You don't have to put, and it's such a, to me, it's a basic, though a concept, but it's like, I try not to have a lot of opinions about shit that I don't like. You know what I mean? Yeah, well that's, and that's so much of, I feel like contemporary culture is just having totally uninformed opinions about shithead, you don't like, like that's what we love about right now as a culture. It's like our whole thing. I feel like it's maybe connected to the

reaction that people have to sort of like why would it be interesting to philosophy that like Silicon Valley guys and, you know, football players are into. It's because they do that like philosophy or and I maybe not religion, but philosophy or any any sort of deep thinking like that. It should be like from the commercial world, which on one hand, I kind of get all the kind of, in the sense, you know, one of the something that Stokesism talks about, of course, is not being connected to material goods and not being obsessed with wealth and and that kind of thing.

But they do that anything in our lives is totally disconnected from the commercial world. I feel like is. I don't know. It feels like idealistic but not necessarily real. You know, like even, even books about stances and meaner like somebody has to. Write the book in a publishing company has to publish it and there's commerce and business involved and that doesn't mean that the philosophy it isn't still useful and deep and interesting. But does that mean?

No, I thought it is a weird thing because people will be like, oh, would Seneca sell this or something? And I would feel like, you know, say, first of all, Seneca owned an enormous estate tended by slaves, which was paid for from the proceeds of his collaboration with Nero's regime. So I don't really take financial advice from Seneca.

It seems like a weird, like, of all the things to take from the Romans, like their understanding of money and like economic systems is probably the main thing we can ignore that, you know, ignore from them. do this because Marcus Aurelius was a dictator for life and didn't have to, like, he, and actually it's like, you know, you know what the currency in Rome was? It was coins with Marcus' face on it. So I'm not sure that he would have such an objection to this either. Wait, wait, sorry. I'm thinking of Medallion with Rhine holidays face on it. I think it's a moon into it go all the way. It's so, it's so, it's a very weird, it's a very weird thing. People, it's like what you find, and I'm sure you find this with your writing too,

it's like when people don't like something they will make up ridiculous reasons why they don't have to wrestle with the ideas in it and It's a you just you end up having to get to a place where you don't think about it or it just It it just like makes you bitter and resentful. Tell which is super not stoic. No. So when you were thinking about that, I am always curious about women and stoicism, obviously because my experience as a man sort of is whatever limitations inherent in that. But like, there's one hand this idea that like, oh, all stocks are men.

And I know that's not true because I hear from so many female readers and I can look at the data, like, you know, Facebook or Instagram followers, for instance. And I see that it's pretty 50-50. But I do get, I do get the sense that it's sort of immediately not as appealing to women or it doesn't feel like it's presented as fully welcoming.

What is that? Is it like the goal of the military stuff or is it, what is it? Personally, I love the skull stuff of it. I mean, it's a really good question and I'm gonna put that question back to you in a minute, but that's part of what? That was part of my initial skepticism about it was like this really feels like it's for dudes. I mean, I also feel like part of that was my own not fully understanding it. It seemed like kind of a bummer philosophy that was about like just don't detach from your feelings, don't be led by your feelings,

be led by some other truths. And, and to me that just felt like, I like my feelings. I want to be in touch with my feelings. I don't want to shut them down, which I realize, you know, digging a little more into it, it's not about shutting down your feelings. And I loved learning that, you know, really storcism and ancient storcism was about, you were reaching this sort of, the end of goals to reach this state of like pure happiness that's

like joy or almost like grace that's not connected to those sort of well-wear of what's going on in your life but is sort of connected to like the climate of your life and and is and this is something that you can keep no matter what else is going on in your life. So once I once I got to that that really in this, is trying to give you tools to reach kind of a state of grace, then it felt like something that felt relevant. But I really did have a sort of preconception that it was about kind of not having feelings, which personally didn't appeal to me.

But I do, I wonder, you know, you're saying you've thought about it, what do you think you have a theory or you know why? It does feel very male. And I feel like most of the stoic writers, you know, the right certainly for a forge or for the internet at large, it just feels very male. Why? It does. That was something I struggled with on the new book, the lives of the Stokes book, because I didn't want it to be all men. But so what's interesting is when you dig in, there is one female stochiro,

which is Porsche, Cato's daughter. But then, Musoneus Rufus is one of the early Roman Stoics says very clearly, there's no gender associated with virtue, that genitals don't have anything to do with courage, injustice, and moderation, and wisdom. It was interesting to see the Stoics be at the forefront of that, but then even historically be predominantly male. I wonder if it's just a result of what we considered virtue and men tends to be a much more public facing stuff. So virtue in a man is for many thousands of years has been like

success in business or on the battlefield or becoming this or that. And a lot of the female stoic traits that virtue and a woman tend to be more inward-facing thing. So by nature not as public, which I came around and realized, like, is actually the more if moderation and restraint is a virtue, then this sort of quiet stoicism of millions of women who were not given their full credit or do is actually sort of the ultimate stoic trait. I just quote in the new book from Robert Caro where he's talking about, he's like,

the myth of the Old West is all about the gunfighters. But he's like, you never hear a story of a woman with a perineal tear, like walking to go get a bucket of water from the well. And like what is actually much harder? That's right. You know what I'm making me think like Vivia all this time, still, Susan has been about trying to get men to be

more like women have always had to be. Totally. Sort of right. Like you said, I mean, living a life of quiet virtue has been what women were supposed to do forever. And then it's like at a certain point, men were like, should I try it? No. Well, I think my wife is much, much more naturally stoke than I.

And then I think that is what's kind of funny about this like weird, resurgent sort of like right-wing masculine culture that we're seeing. Yeah. Is like how ironically unmanly it is. Like there's a great Atlantic piece. It was like a people are going to get mad that I'm saying this. So which itself is proving the point. But they're like, it's like, I think the title was like,

Trump, the least manly president. And it's like, here you have a guy that complains all the time, blames other people, you know, never takes responsibility, you know, like is preposterously vain, makes it all about him. Like, if you sort of list, like what people are like, getting mad about as far as like political correctness, those are actually like masculine, like what it like, if you look back,

like even to the let's say the 19th century, like that idea of like don't swear in front of a woman or don't spit in church, you know all these things are like now the things that people are like, you're not gonna, you're gonna muzzle me with your political correctness. Like the whole point of masculine culture and like this sort of stoic thing is like having control

of yourself and doing not doing things even though you can do them. Yeah, well, you know, I feel like often, and I think this is true of individuals and kind of society, if I may, but like the things that we're correcting for or what we're looking for or what we're suggesting is cures often say so much more about what needs to be cured than anything else. You know, so it's like, um, sure. I think of Ellen DeGeneres. Okay, so still with me over a second.

So, you know, she had this whole thing this summer where people were like, you know what, she's not that nice. Um, the whole thing is that people should be nice. So what gives? And I think those were probably a lot of people that are like the know the thing they need to work on. And so they're over. I mean, this is giving Ellen DeGeneres a lot of people that are like, they know the thing they need to work on. And so they're over, I mean, this is giving Ellen to generous lot of credit.

I don't know, personally, but they're overcracting. You know, they're looking for answers. They're looking for ways to get to sort of fix their deficits or make themselves more like they want to be. So it's not like they're saying, you know, it's not like a, I, you know, it's not like a I would guess a Stoic is saying Hey look, I'm the best at this and totally the most

Yeah, it's that's the person who's like I have the most to work on this is what I'm trying to work towards I think that I don't know it's a theory Hey, raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parents life I think that I don't know what it's a theory. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident

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I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. The Ellen thing is such a good example to me of where we've lost our minds as a culture. And it's like, sure, meanness and people who are not very nice are a problem right now. Ellen is probably like 5 millionth in line of shitty people that we need to reform. But because she has a reputation of being nice, you can shame and attack that. You know what I'm saying? It's like, there's this weird thing where I think it's like because people feel impotent

about addressing some of the really alarming big things in the world. They want to... I think even there's an element of this in the Me Too movement where it's like, there are these like profoundly bad people who have been unaccountable and you know, allowed to do whatever they want for a really long time. And then there's also like the somewhat socially awkward person. And so it's like, who do you have the most power over to like enforce that agenda? It's, unfortunately, it's not the Harvey Weinstein's of the world. Who do you have the most power over to enforce that agenda?

Unfortunately, it's not the Harvey Weinstein's of the world. It's that guy who works three desks down from you that somewhat clumsily, or even just in bad taste, said something that they shouldn't have said. And so we end up sort of, the energy goes towards where it has the most immediate impact instead of going like how do we take down this predator? Yeah, we don't have a lot of appetite for subtlety. I think nowadays in this culture.

So it's like, you know, everything bad is bad and everything good is good. It's like, you're not really mad about Ellen. Like, you know what I mean? Like, Ellen, Ellen did nothing to you personally. You're just mad about hypocrisy in general and she is a obvious, recent example of potential hypocrisy. And so that's what everyone focuses.

Yeah, that's funny. That's a topic we've been talking about the editorial staff at Forge, the idea of hypocrisy and how frustrating it is for everybody to live in this era that seems kind of defined by hypocrisy and and what is there to do about it? And I think you're right that it's it's almost like you kind of mentally want to go after somebody who you're like, well, I think the mood actually listen, actually want to be better. And you look at the people in charge, think I'm not sure that they think they have a problem and want to be better. I don't think they're receptive to this right now, but who is?

I think that's really why we're freaking out. Yeah. No, that's why we're freaking out. It's really. Because usually the charge of hypocrisy has weight. Oh my god. People are wanting to be called the hypocrite. Right. And what do you do?

What do you do when someone's like, like, what do you do with a Lindsey Graham? Who's like, here's what I say in 2016. Here's what I say in 2016, here's what I say in 2020, and fuck you for trying to even think that that's a gotcha. Like, our society's not designed to handle that level of shamelessness.

And I don't think it ever has been. I mean, this is like when you look at someone like Kato who's this sort of very righteous, like a disciplined sort of black and white guy, he comes across a Julius Caesar who's just like, yeah, I'll do whatever I want. It's like, it's like the computer can't make the make sense of it. Right. I mean, that's something that I thought was so interesting learning about how like Marcus Aurelius was a major stoic thinker and a bird who, as you said, you know, that's an equesturable things that he did. But just the idea that that was the culture that, like I hadn't been aware of this, that it used to, it had been that Emperor sort of had like a house philosopher.

And then Marcus Relius was sort of like, you know what, I think I can do you both. Just, if you are a D.E.M.E. and on hand, you can say, well, he wasn't really very sure. None of these emperors were really leading the most virtuous lives. But also, like shout out for trying and for trying for your own interval a philosopher on your staff.

Can you imagine politicians today just being like, hold, I got to check with my philosopher really fast to make sure that is the virtuous decision. I mean, yeah, now they want to even consult ethics officers or the law. They're like, yeah, screw the hatch act. Like that doesn't apply anymore or whatever. Yeah, what's interesting about Marcus and Hadrian, and for one more emperor beforehand, is like, Hadrian attends Epicetus' lectures and there's stories of Marcus Relius attending lectures of BlossforName Sex. Just the idea, even of like, I mean, everyone was amazed at like Obama read, Obama read books. That was like so impressive. And they're like, isn't this, like, our standards are so low as far as what we expect from leaders, like what we want them to be is telegenic and like good fundraisers.

And then we wonder why they're not great decision-makers. It's like they don't have the inputs. Well, like don't you want them to be so much smarter than us? Like I want them to be so much smarter than me. I want them to read everything. And think more philosophy all the time. And say things that I can't even understand because they're so smart.

And that's so not American culture right now. It's like the weed rather, you know, the whole, you want the guy you can have a beer with sort of. Go downtown. Yeah. I'm like, I wonder what I could never have a beer with because he'd be so over my head. Well, that's something I'd like like like a like a a o c. So, so it's clear that this isn't just like a one sided political conversation. It's like, I'm sure she's

smart and and says some interesting things, but like, do you want, do you want a person running the world who has had literally zero jobs. Like, this is really, like, even the idea of experience and competence being something that, like, the Stoics believed that wisdom was that critical thing and that it takes a really long time to get it. Like, you know, Marcus Rios was an apprentice

under Antoninus for like 20 years, you know, the idea that we now hold it against Biden that he's been a politician for a long time. It's really interesting that you say that because I was listening to your podcast and And at this point, the most recent episode, we're talking to your co-writer editor. Yeah, my editor. What are you guys about feeling a little bit, I hope it's okay if I bring this up. Like feeling a little bit early in your running career,

like you felt that from other people that they were like, who is this guy? So you're, what does he have to say? How can he share any wisdom? And I think I'm like, like you said, you've had this experience with leaders before that they're trying to find out how young you are and how that's an experience, to be honest.

And, and we thought that way too. What's your relationship with that? Sort of having this, like you're this like repository of ancient wisdom and you're afraid of that these, I keep it right about wisdom a lot. Do you think that's something that you think that has been like a young fellow?

I think I don't see myself as a repository of wisdom. I do, to me be both an arrogant A young fellow. I think I don't see myself as a repository of wisdom. I do, to me, be both an arrogant and an uneducated thing to say. But I think, honestly, I can say what I do have is a lot of information and the ability to distill and communicate that information. So I feel like each one of my books

becomes a bit more original. And there might be a handful of, like, sort of, truly unique ideas that I own inside of them, but I primarily see my, but it just says, you do, I'm sure, as a journalist where you're like, no, I go and I explore things, and I communicate what I was shown about these things. I don't write from a perspective of like, here's truth that I invented. What I'm saying is like, here's truth I'm exploring, and here's the structure that I'm organizing. And so for me, I feel like a lot of times I am getting the reflection, or I'm bas asking in the reflection of a lot of really smart ideas that because the person is hearing them

for the first time from me, things that I sort of uniquely discovered, but in fact, when you really go do the reading, these are very common things. So I think weirdly, the more research I do, the more competent I become and what I talk about because it's like, oh, this is a very well-established idea. Just in the way that like somebody writes about habits is like, here's what the research shows about habits. You don't actually care that much, you know, what they ate for lunch or, you know, what their habits are specifically because you understand there can be

Obviously, you don't want to learn from a total hypocrite, but you understand that you can be informed by someone who is on the same journey as you Right. Yeah, you're right. Someone who's on the journey and that's more interesting I think anyway than having someone be like I've got it all figured out and listen up Yeah, I have a lot of anxiety rating this piece because I was like, I, there's so much to learn and absorb. And I was like, my lifestyle is not stoic enough. Like I got really into my head after I talked to Don Robertson. That's a great, yeah. And he was sort of like, he was my lifestyle, you know, I don't have any

possessions and I don't eat and I, and then he's like, as like a super ascetic lifestyle. And I was like, man, I don't know if I can do that. Do you feel like that's an important part of of storcism is like sort of peering down your life and not as much. Not as much. I like so I know Donald that I'm known him a long time and like I learned that he made all those decisions from your article. So like I was not I was not aware that he made all those decisions from your article. So I was not aware that he had done that. I'm so obsessed with coffee with vinegar. It sounded horrible. I know, it's incredible.

I love it. I like the idea of Marcus really sleeping on a hard mattress in a palace or sort of Santa Cigling. I have the money, I might as well enjoy it, but it's just not going to mean anything to me. So in a weird way, I think that well enjoy it, but it's just not going to mean anything to me. So like, I think that the, in a weird way, I think that's kind of how Stoicism works well and some of the communities we're talking about,

which is it's not that you, even that you said he lives in aesthetic life, like actually that I sort of, a rejection of worldly goods is much more cynical like of the cynic school than the Stokes school. I think when you really look at the Stokes, they were, you know, they were people with jobs and careers and families and houses and stuff. So I see it as like, if you can do it within moderation, it's great. If you can do it in a way that doesn't, it doesn't sort of fuse itself

into your DNA and you're like, this is the new normal. But to me, that's the way to do it. And again, I think like what really counts is like, are you a good person? Are you sort of like walking through the world with that sort of equanimity and poise and understanding? To me, how big or small your house is, whether you can afford a $10,000 car or a $50,000 car, that says a lot less than any. The status you have says a lot less than pretty much anything else. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's like that, that sort of practice of stoicism where you're just taking a look at each kind of

moment of conflict that you have a moment of stress or internal moment and and thinking, okay, and I, the one who's getting in my own way. Am I? That's, that's really, it's like, can I control, what can I not control? I mean, I just think that's useful to anyone which makes sense. I think that's why it's so sort of beloved by readers right now.

Well, so my last question for you, and I remember this in the questions you asked me, and it's probably the most common one I get, but I remember this in the questions you asked me, and it's probably the most common one I get, but I thought it's worth kicking around, which is I very much got the sense that you had believed that stoicism was sort of a resignation to the status quo, that it was an indifference to other people suffering or injustices in the world. But it was somehow,

it's sort of incompatible with whatever political or social beliefs that you currently have. Is that right? Yeah, that was something that stressed me out so much about when I was writing this piece because I kept thinking, I mean, I think for a moon, probably for a lot of contemporary people,

the idea of fate and things being faded is really hard to wrap my mind around. And I really got, I really got tangled up in my own head about it, sort of like, wait a minute. If, if stances and beliefs that everything is faded, then what do our decisions matter? How do you believe in a world where things are faded or things kind of are how they're supposed to be? How is that compatible with needing to make good decisions or does it mean that there's no point in getting involved in a

cause or voting in the election because whatever is going to happen is already out there and That yeah, you were very helpful in Explaining why that's not what storcism believes But it's it's I don't know for me. I don't know why I get tripped up on that but I You know, I came away Yeah, so moldy we can talk about, like how? You talk about what, like what you told me. No, it's a tricky thing because this don't do say all the things that you said.

And so you're like, well, does that mean, right, that they were just, that they just sort of closed their eyes to what was happening. And it's sort of what you would expect, but what's always struck me. And I think this is what I was saying to you, is like the actual actions of the Stoics completely belive any, you know, belief that they were powerless over world events. You know what I mean? Like, like, whether you're looking at the founding fathers of America sort of inspired by stoicism, whether you're looking at Thomas Wentworth Higginson who leads this regiment of Black troops in the Civil War, whether you're looking at Stockdale and Vietnam, whether you're looking at, you know, the social activists and Britain who are inspired by the Stoics, it's like,

it's almost like, even if that's what they said, what they actually did showed them to be actually pretty radical politically and actually pretty committed to what we now call social justice, clearly you can't write stoicism off as somehow being just accepting of every bad thing that's happening. No, it's not sort of fatalistic.

And this one, for Professor, that I talked to, really helped me under, like wrap my mind around it. He gave this example that he said is like a classic philosophy sort of story, but having never taken any philosophy course or anything, I was like, wow, this blows my mind. He started with the example of his sleeping bed and his wife is having a weird dream and starts punching him.

Another version of that is he's sleeping bed, his wife has really mad at him and starts punching him. And it feels like so I'm getting punched either way, but in one iteration of this reality she made this choice to sort of do like a bad thing. I don't know maybe you deserved it, but you're really bad thing and just punch him out of nowhere. And sort of the other kind of track of reality. But it is the same result, but it is a totally different lived experience if students mean to, and it was just involuntary.

And I thought, I mean, that kind of helped me wrap my mind around. It makes sense, because stonicism is about you all you can control, which is yourself, and trying to act in the most virtuous way possible. So your decisions do matter if nothing else for the sake of virtue and trying to do things the right way. Will it change the outcome of the world, who can say, but you still try anyway, which brought me, we feel much better about it because I was like, this sounds bad.

Like, nothing matters, but like you said, that's totally the opposite of, this sounds bad. Like, nothing matters. But like you said, that's totally the opposite of of stoicism, things do matter. Now, that's been one of the things I've liked the least about the last few months is that at my journey on stoicism has been getting me towards a place where I care more deeply about these things. I think it's profoundly made me a better person. Like, I think there's a thing where young guys can go through

where it's like you start reading Richard Dawkins, you start reading this or that, and you're suddenly like, nothing matters, you do whatever you want. It can sort of take you towards a path of nihilism. And I think for me, stoicism was a very important influence because it made me care more. It made me feel more connected to people.

It gave me a stronger sense of duty and obligation. I guess as I've been writing about these things over the years, I just began to believe that everyone was on the same page. I think every month, and the last few years I've revealed is like, oh, that's not true, even within my own audience. Weirdly, that's where the next level of stoicism kicks in, which actually markets open

to the patients with it, just basically this idea of like, people are going to be people. And you can't let that break you. You still have to try the care, you still have to want to do these things. You also have to understand that it's gonna have a relatively little impact. And maybe what we see in the history of stoshism

is that although they went into it relatively pessimistic about how much impact they were gonna have, the crazy things that the stokes did end up having big impact in certain situations. And so it's sort of like, it's like you, you, you, you think you're going to lose, but you still go down swinging. Maybe that's sort of the stoke idea. Mm-hmm. Which feels really useful in this current moment. Sure, now, yeah.

You just keep trying. Yeah. Um, this is, like like changing the subject slightly, but I just wanted to have one thing, which is that, um, I realized you when I have books coming out on the same day next week, right? It really? And the, I mean, I don't know when this will air, but in the current moment, it's next week. And so congratulations to us, I guess. Isn't that weird?

Yeah, no, that's actually a great place to wrap up. So talk me through, there's actually something I wrote down. Walk me through, to me, stoicism is the ultimate philosophy for the unpredictable heart breaking. Also exciting, bipolar reality of being an artist, particularly in the internet era. How are you taking what you've learned and applying it to your life, but also to putting out vulnerable creative work in the middle of a pandemic? That is totally correct. Stoicism is super-

I should say that's another thing that really surprised me about my stoicism journey this summer was realizing that it was super helpful for I think I know about this in the piece. There's moment where I was like, yeah, yeah, I get it, don't get attached to outcomes, don't get attached to success and money. I'm not like that anyway.

And then immediately sort of started looking at this stuff I was supposed to do to help promote my book and start feeling like, just about it. I was like, oh my god, am I doing enough? And then I thought, well, I was like, god, damn it. Amy, no, you're getting attached to outcomes. And it's hard not to do that when you're publishing a book because for so long in making the book,

it's a creative process. And then it flips over to this other commercial process. Right. And it's right. And it's very, and like you said, of books that minus fictions, it feels very, it's a novel and it that always feels very vulnerable because it's it's weird. It's this stuff I made up in my head and then all of a sudden, these pretend to people are out walking around and people are dealing with them and it's very strange. Um, And what's the title? Oh, it's called Unseen City.

It's about a haunted house. Basically, exactly like your book, right? The same, but I have just been actually actively reminded myself. I'm holding my goddamn medallion in my hand and reminding myself that I did work. I have done my job. I'm going to continue to do what I can, but I'm not actually in control of how to receive what people think of it. I just have to remember that I'm not in control of that.

How do you do that? And look when it's a huge success, and it sells millions of copies. You still have to, I think the important thing about socialism is that you still have to tell yourself the same thing, right? So I think people with these two systems is this like, like getting rid of hope, right? Like, you know, like just tell yourself it's gonna fail

and then you won't be heartbroken when it doesn't happen. But it's not just that it's also like, that's what Marcus is emperor and he's trying to go, this doesn't make you that special. It could have gone another way. And so I think it's a, you know, he says of rock gains, nothing by going up, and it loses

nothing by coming down. And to me, I try to remind myself that every time I'm putting out a project or publishing, like the fact that my last Forbes Forge piece did X views does not make it any better or worse than the one before it that did half as many views. That just happened to be how the numbers came down. That's exactly right, right. And I think you're right that that's almost the hardest part.

It's like when things aren't going how you want them to, you're aware that you need a way to reframe it in your mind to make it okay. But it's almost more harder to remember and just as important if not more important. To remember that one thing seemed to be going really well too because you still don't want to, you know, hit yourself forth to whatever number that is. Because it's because that's the whole thing, it's it's going to go down. It's going to go up. But you have to be there for the process. And just, right, not connect yourself with it, which is hard to remember.

But I hope that your book is so uncomfortably successful that you have a hard time with that. I like a lot of quiet. Yeah, but I hope you're having to remind yourself that your success doesn't make you better or worse than other people. Right, nothing but struggles ahead for you, I hope. Amy, thank you so much.

You're welcome, thank you. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for not being mad at me about my piece. I appreciate it. Not at all. If you're liking this podcast, we would love for you to subscribe. Please leave us a review on iTunes or any of your favorite podcasts, listening apps. at all. Listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.