The Daily Stoic - DJ Vanas on the Warrior Spirit and Fueling Growth

Episode Date: August 31, 2022

Ryan talks to leadership expert DJ Vanas about his new book The Warrior Within: Own Your Power to Serve, Fight, Protect, and Heal, how to use the warrior mindset to fuel growth in your life, the power of living a life of service rather than selfishness, and more.DJ Eagle Bear Vanas is an enrolled member of the Ottawa Tribe of Michigan. He was born to impoverished teenage parents and went from sleeping in a drawer for the first three months of his life to becoming a proud graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, a decorated Air Force captain, a renowned member of the tribal community, a bestselling author, and a revered motivational speaker. A true warrior, who is successful in both business and life, he credits these personal triumphs to traditional teachings and ceremony as well as his service as a military officer.✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2, the 2000 year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us dailystow.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target,

the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. It's funny. I try to talk about discipline. I try to be very disciplined about how I do my stuff. I always want to be ahead of schedule. For the daily stock, I write the daily email. I have never written that day's email the day before.

It's definitely not the day of. I'm usually like, right now we're scheduled out through the end of September. Even the recordings too. I always am chipping away, I'm trying to create a back catalog so I can make good choices so the team can make good choices editorial about what we run. And so that's always been my attitude, like I just had to turn in a book to a project and it was like a month and a half early. I never missed deadlines. That's how I am, that's how I think.

To me, that's what discipline is. And when I say discipline, it's destiny. It's like if you're that person, that helps you do good work and helps people count on you. And it helps you become what you're capable of doing. So if you want to pre-order disciplines, destiny, please do. But the point is, I try to do things in advance, but this one accidentally was done so far in advance.

I think I recorded this like back in April with DJ Eagle Bear Vanis, an enrolled member of the Ottawa Tribe of Michigan, a proud graduate of the U.S. Air Force Academy, a decorated Air Force captain, and a pivotal and renowned member of his tribal community. And also, a best-selling author and a revered motivational speaker who has a new book with my same publisher, Portfolio Penguin, they reached out and asked if I wanted to have one.

And from the title alone, I knew it would be a great conversation. The warrior within our own power to serve, fight and protect and heal. It's a great conversation. The warrior within our own power to serve, fight, and protect and heal. It's a great book. It highlights the tribal principles that led to the first cultures in America. It dives into the significance of tribal principles, how they're going to be applied to lead organizations with courage, find clarity in chaos, and serve your best regardless of your circumstances.

He's been hosted by the White House Fortune 500 companies, tribal nations, and now put together this wonderful book. You can go to his website, nativediscovery.com. You can follow him on Twitter at DJVanisVANAS. But do check out the new book, which is out this month, The Warrior Within, Own Your Power to Serve, Fight, and Protect. Thank you, DJ, for agreeing to do this interview. Thank you for doing it. Months and months earlier, and not saying a word,

is this scheduling confusion on my teams end. And we sat on it and now we're putting it out because your book is out. Enjoy this everyone. Talk soon. Well, I'm excited to talk. I thought we'd start. You have sort of a unique story. Where did you grow up? Your backgrounds, I think, different than a lot of my guests. I grew up all over. I originally from Michigan,

grew up in North Dakota, South Dakota. It's been a lot of my growing up years in Mississippi and then joined the military. And so ended up in a bunch of different places after that as well. Were your parents in the military? My dad was 21 and a half years. What did he do?

He was avionics maintenance. So he actually flew in an air cruder in the Cold War on RC-135s. So he was T.Y. a lot and then he ended up transferring out of that career and got into avionics maintenance more ground-based. So he wasn't gone all the time. Did they want you to be in the Armed Forces? Was that their dream? No.

You know, but when you grow up at the other runway, I mean, that's where, you know, I got really inspired to follow in those footsteps because I just, you know where I got really inspired to follow in those footsteps because I was so fascinated by the whole concept of being in the military, flying in particular. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a pilot. And so it was kind of a natural alignment, at least for me.

There's kind of an unsung or unselibrated, and I would say unexpected given the sort of realities of American history, but there is a pretty impressive tradition of Native Americans in the US Armed Forces. I was just reading Admiral Stabritis' book about Navy heroes. And I had no idea about Commander Ernest Evans, who is the first Native American to win the Medal of Honor. Like, it's weird that there is this history,

and it's one of maybe the few areas of, it's not that it's a bright spot, but it seems like something we should celebrate, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, we have the highest rate of military service out of any ethnic group in America and have for over a hundred years because again, it's that warrior concept in reality,

you know, being able to exercise that, but it's one of those stories that I was proud to be a part of because I got selected to be part of the PBS special, the Warrior tradition. And that whole film was about telling that story. And so it was a big honor to be part of that because that's something that, you know, I think is pretty special and needs to be told. I think it's pretty special and needs to be told. Yeah, it's both beautiful and tragic that sort of the groups that have been historically persecuted when they are not persecuted and given an opportunity to succeed.

They do so. I was just reading this other book about the Japanese soldiers in the Second World War that served out of the concentration camps is that the 420 second, I forget the name of it, but it's like the most decorated Italian in American history is the one that by some standards should have been required to sacrifice the least. Do you know what I mean? Like, but it is this sort of beautiful reminder that when you give people the opportunity to succeed, they succeed.

And the other way to think about that too is like think about what countries, America being at the forefront of them, have deprived themselves of by not availing themselves of this resource. Do you know what I mean? I do. I do, because that, well, and that was one of the reasons why we had such high service rates in World War I, is because that was a chance finally, you know, after all the all the big wars were over, between, you know, drives in the US government. It was a chance for our people to prove their worth in this society, to be able to stand

up and be proud of who they are and really, you know, kind of exercise, again, that warrior tradition in a different way and make a contribution to this nation. And so that was one of those really special, unique things. But yeah, it's almost like there's a chip on their shoulder, like there's something to prove. And yeah, the unit that you're talking about, a World War II, I read about them as well. And you know, same with Tuskegee Airmen.

Yes, it's, you know, when you have that, you know, kind of that almost like a chip on your shoulder, like you've really got something to step up for, improve if not to anyone but yourself. Our Navajo code talkers are another great example of that, you know, fascinating story in and of itself. Yeah, Robert Green talks about the death ground strategy sort of when it's not just you have something to prove, but also when there's very little to lose, right? Because where are they gonna go back, right? It's tragic, of course,

that they're in this terrible position. But if you think about why they would want to go do this thing, it's because all the other options have been closed to them. And it is kind of a forcing function towards, you know, channeling all of one's hopes and efforts towards this sort of singular avenue, right? Right. Make sure it's a dangerous asset. Yeah.

When you're pushed into a quarter, that's when I, that's when I, that's when I, when that warrior spirit really comes out, you know, because you do feel kind of, you know, painted into a corner. And that's, yeah. Well, it's powerful. It's volatile. Definitely.

It's got to be channeled the right way, for sure, because yeah, it can definitely go off the rails pretty fast. But at least to have that direction like that, being able to step up and be able to be of service, be able to make contribution in that type of way, you know, really was remarkable. So obviously you're sort of traveling around as a military, a brat as a kid, but what is your sort of tribal life at that time? Like what is it like growing up as you grew up? What's your, how are you immersed in these sort of traditions and ideas?

Yeah, I grew up always knowing who I was and where I came from, but I grew up away from my people. My tribe is based in Michigan. Home was where the Air Force sent us, but I always was connected to my culture. My grandma taught our traditional language, and this was back in the 70s before a lot of the traditional language started to come back. You know we have

this language renaissance in our tribal communities that began during that time and my grandma was a part of that and so I was always kind of raised to understand, you know, to be proud of who I was and where I came from but having that disconnect was always tough. Every time I went back home and we visited, I would get that reconnection again. But until I started actually,

my entire adult life, I've served Indian country. I've worked with over 500 tribal communities, tribal nations in the last 25 plus years of my life. And so that's really where I got immersed and kind of at the big picture level too. So I was always, like I said, I knew my tribal background in history, but working as, you know, across the board with all different tribal communities

is really what kind of keeps me connected in a much stronger way. Yeah, how does that work? Because I have to imagine that part of the tribal community has always been a little bit, not, if not nomadic, but sort of spread out, right? So like, it's both you're away from it, but also it's everywhere. I have to imagine, right? Like the idea that it's both you're away from it, but also it's everywhere. I have to imagine, right? Like the idea that it's rooted in a place

is probably a tad more Western than the natural, if I'm, I might be totally out base, but I have to imagine the tradition does account for a sort of a widespread or disbursement of people over an enormous amount of territory because traditionally that's what it also was. Yeah, and there is home turf. There is a home base, of course. It's just the place that we're from, the place that we're familiar with. But that's also true too, is that,

I feel like that cultural home is wherever I am. And one of the neat things about our tribe, we got misnamed, it was a miscommunication that happened. So frequently, the French came in the early 1600s and discovered us and they were impressed at what they saw. And we had this vibrant trade network set up using what made us famous, which were Birchbark Canoos. These things were, I mean, engineering brilliance.

I mean, the holes were less than a quarter of an inch thick. A canoe 18 feet long could weigh as little as 35 pounds, but they were strong, maneuverable, fast. And so when the French came and saw what we were doing, they were impressed and a little bit jealous too. You know, they came up to our people and they asked, you know, they're like, who are you? You know, we didn't understand their language. We thought they asked, what are you doing?

So we answered in our language, we said, Odawa, which in our language means to trade. And they're like, suck, could it do your B, Odawa? And they read it down, we're like, no. But they ain't drive, we've been known for that ever since. And I always think what a goofy way to get named, we call ourselves Anishinaabe, which means the people or first people. And but the other kind of definition of Ottawa

is the at-home anywhere people. Right, and I always think of how in alignment that is to the work that I do, working with so many different travel communities. That's probably about 70% of the work that I've done up to this point. The other 30% is government association, corporate military, but 70% is government association, corporate military, but 70% is in travel communities. And I really feel like that when I go out

and travel as I feel like, you know, I'm a member of that at home, anywhere, people. Yeah, at home, anywhere is a nice encapsulation of sort of military culture, native culture, the writer speaker culture, where it's like, you have to go and figure out your routine and figure out your life and figure out how to do what you do, even though you're in unfamiliar surroundings and yet, I don't know about you, but a certain amount of time on the road, it all starts to feel the same also, right? The hotels are all the same, the cities are all the same. Right. Going to way to be at home anywhere,

even like I have, like I've only lived in, let's say five or six cities, but I do have this sense that like the cities, the cities that I've lived in are larger, the number is larger, because I've been to, I don't know, Chicago however many dozens of times, even though I stay in a different place each time, to lived in the number is larger because I've been to, I don't know, Chicago, however many dozens of times,

even though I stay in a different place each time, I've got, I feel rooted there because I've been there in that way enough times. Got you. Yeah, and then big sentence, and that's the thing, you have to have structure to, you know, that I'm a big believer in having that routine,

whether I'm at home or on the road, but have to have structure to, you know, that, that, I'm a big believer in having that routine, you know, whether I'm, you know, at home or on the road. But one of the things, too, you get familiar with some of the areas you go back to over and over again. But what I, you know, the reason why I enjoy so much, you know, what I get to do for a living is all these different communities that go to. It's never the same twice. And there's so much diversity within our tribal communities. That's the coolest thing.

We have over 550 plus federally recognized tribes, and everybody's got unique backgrounds, unique histories, customs, culture, language, food. So it's a kind of an adventure just in that alone, because I'm constantly learning, constantly. And that's one of the things that makes what I do so enjoyable. That is the surreal part of America, the sort of bounty of it, I guess, is that it is so vast, and yet it's climates are so disparate, like all the different types of,

and then, but also, that how many of the states have the same amount of diversity, if you know what I mean, it's like, okay, Colorado has mountains and sand dunes and deserts and plains, and then Texas has all of those things also, right? And like that America is so vast and enormous, but that all of the different places have

their own diversity inside them. Like, of course, we would have so many different kinds of people, and then also have so much sort of shared understanding as well. Right. Yeah, it's microcosms. You know, you can you start fine slicing those little things. Every one of those little microcosms is another adventure in itself. And like I said, even the travel communities I work with are the different tribes. They have their own individual bands,

just like my tribe does. And they're all unique. They're all a little bit different. And that's what makes them so special. So it's a constant discovery and rediscovered experience that I go through every time I go out and do the work that I get to do. So what draws you to the Air Force Academy?

How do you end up there? Like I said, growing up at the end of a runway, I was always fascinated by aircraft. And as I got older, that was a path that for me looked like something that I wanted to really pursue. I remember seeing my dad's patch, you know, for strategic air command. And it's an iron gauntlet and it's holding lightning, you know, because they dealt with our all our nukes. And so it was always, you know, those were in print that were made on my mind. But it wasn't just that. It was understanding that my dad was making a contribution

that he was part of a team. He was part of a collective. He had dedicated his life into service to others. My mom did too, as a career nurse. And so growing up with that kind of belief in that understanding was kind of a natural alignment. So I started applying myself as I was going through junior high high school. I really started to apply myself because my goal was to go to the Air Force Academy. I wanted to fly. You know, my parents were

doing me at 13. I got an orientation flight and assessment and I was never the same. I mean, it was like, you know, pie in the sky became pie that I could see, smell, taste, and touch. It was right there in front of me because I sat in the front and, you know, halfway through the flight, you know, I'm just looking around, just fascinated.

And the pilot says, why don't you reach Ford and put your hands on the wheel? Now, what? He said, let's see what you can do. I said, man, I am 13 years old. He said, have you ever flown before? And I was like, no. He said, how do you know that you can't?

Put your hands on the wheel, I'll see what you can do. And everything changed after that. I mean, it became reality. And as soon as we landed, I couldn't get out of my head. All I kept asking, how do I do this? How do I do this?

And I begged and I pleaded. And I learned the power of persistence too. Don't take no, as a final answer. And they finally gave up and they're like, look, you can do this, but you have to keep all your grades up. You have to stay out of trouble and you have to make all your own money. They thought that would be the deal breaker.

Yeah, yeah. I was like, deal. And so I started flying when I was 13, sold when I was 16, got my license at 17, and my goal is to go to the Air Force Academy and be a pilot. — I love my kid, but is a new parenting. — I love my kids, but is a new parenting. — I love my kids, parenting is unbearable.

I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone.

So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. It's funny how the things that we experience as a kid, like what our parents do, what they expose us to. We, and I imagine this is particularly common, growing up on reservations where it's like, you either like, this is it, this is it for me,

or you're like, I want the opposite of this, right? Like, so I imagine in the military culture too, you're like, I wanna do what my mom did or my dad did, or I wanna do the opposite of what my mom did or my dad did. Yeah, and to do the opposite of what my mom did or my dad did. Yeah, and both can be motivators, right? Yeah, really powerful motivators. And that was a whole reason why my dad left home

in Michigan to join the military because he had an environment where he's like, I want to do the opposite. And I want to have structures, stability, and be part of something bigger and have be able to take care of my family the way I want to. But yeah, on both sides that spectrum it can be a real powerful motivator. But that was my goal. I wanted to do that. And by the way, I've always been a big fan of

biographies. And the first one I ever read, I think it was 11. And it was Chief Joseph, second was Teddy Roosevelt. I've been reading him ever since, because I'm always fast, say, what makes people tick or do the things that they do. And one of the things I go back to, every time I read a biography is how, what, where somebody ended up as an adult, that we read it out, we hold an highest theme,

started when they were kids, the things that they were exposed to, those early memories, those things where they, you know, I had an experience and they thought, maybe I could do this, you know, and they started to follow that path. So, yeah, there's a lot of, I mean, I agree with that 100%,

that's a really powerful motivator. There's a quote from one of Theodore Roosevelt's biographers that I like, is basically grew up sort of surrounded by books, right? And they said, Theodore Roosevelt is the story of a young boy who grew up reading about the great men of history and decided to be just like them. There you go. And the idea that, like, you know, you read these biographies again, it's like one person reads these biographies and goes, that's impossible.

I can't do that. That's so far from my experience. And then the other part reads it. The other kind of person reads it and goes, I could do that. I want to feel like that. That could be me. And I think that choice,

that perspective is hugely predictive. As far, you know, if you don't think you can do something, if you're not in the spot there, if you don't think those stories are accessible, you're not going to do it. Right. Yeah, you won't pursue that. And that's what it's so critical to, you know, that story we tell ourselves about what's possible is critically important to wherever we end up in our life and career. But it's also surrounded ourselves with the right people. You know, having those people in our tribe, you know, that encourages that sheer us on.

There is a shoulder to cry on, a hand to hold, or sometimes a boot in the rear end, well, we need it. We all need that at times too. I know I have. But that is, you know, really powerful components on, you know, what allows us to become the best version of us down the pathway.

But yeah, that story and it starts in our minds. Can we do it or is it impossible? Either answer is right. Yeah, I spoke at the Naval Academy last week and I didn't go to a great college. My parents didn't have super high expectations for me. It's sort of just an ordinary middle class kid. You go to college because you're supposed to go to college.

And I was sort of trying to communicate to these kids just what, how absurdly rich the environment therein is as I'm sure you found at the Air Force Academy. I mean, you're surrounded by the best and brightest of your entire generation, in some ways of the entire world, right? And either that inspires you and it makes you better or it's intimidating and you just sort of er, er, your gaze from it and you, same thing, I'm not like these people I can't keep up, but I have to imagine that the people in your class have gone on to do some incredible things as well. I mean, that's a generation of leadership

in American and world events. Yeah, and that's the crazy part is I think both things were true. I wasn't intimidated, definitely. But I was also inspired. Yeah, because you show up, when you come to a place like that, one of the military academies,

I mean, it's an elite institution that a hand picks people from different environments You show up when you come to a place like that, one of the military academies. It's an elite institution that hand picks people from different environments where they were the big fish in the small pond. They started out grow. These were straight-A students, varsity athletes. When you come into that environment, all of a sudden you're a little tiny minop, you know, in a really big lake. And, but it gives you an opportunity to grow because when you're surrounded by that again,

I had an over tell me this years ago, and the over I get the more I see it to be true, you said our spirits are like sponges, they soak up whatever they're around. And when you're in an environment like that where you're soaking up this incredible stuff, I mean, you can't help but benefit. And that's where I started getting to a place too, where I started even seeing glimpses there of there's no limit to how good we can become at what we do or who we are. I mean, the sky is the limit. Our own, you know, our own belief is our own governor.

But be it around people like that, that, you know, just when you think you're doing well athletically, you see somebody just blow it out of the water. When you're doing well academically, you see somebody just crush the tests and you barely, barely pass. I mean, it was this constant recycling of being reminded to stay humble and to keep working, keep grinding and see how good you can become, but always knows there's going to be somebody better than you and you're always going there's gonna be somebody better than you, and you're always gonna be a little bit better

than somebody else. So that's not where the race is run. It's how good can you become at who you are and what you do? Isn't that kind of a timeless cycle? I mean, when I talk to sports teams, it's the same thing. I was speaking to a college football team,

do you want to program a couple weeks ago? And you're just like, okay, you wouldn't be here if you weren't the best where you came from. That's why they recruited you, right? And then you came here and you're now not the best, right? There's a few freaks here there that just always the best. You know, there's the the broad James who are just punching so far above their weight.

But for us mere mortals and that includes successful people, life is a continual series of promotions that are also demotions, right? So it's like you, you succeed in some business and all of a sudden you, you are bumping into people who have been doing this thing for 20 years. And they have more money than you, more experience than you, more context than you. You get promoted into leadership and suddenly you're surrounded by other leaders, right? Or you get into the Naval Academy and you're no longer the best from your high school. You're just one of 4,000 students who, you know, and how one adjusts to going from the best to having trouble keeping up to me is everything. Like how quickly can you reinvent yourself, figure out this new environment?

Like how quickly can you swim once you've been thrown in the deep end? That is critical. And if ego is what got you there, that's when you're really screwed because when you take that hit and suddenly you're struggling, that can send you into a spiral of despair. Yeah, that you might not recover from. If you're going with that, type of mentality that can really do us to a dark corner. So it really is. I call it the Weeble Wobble Effect. So it really is, I mean, it's that, I call it, you know, the Weeble Wobble effect. You know, like I had Weeble Wobbles and we were kids and, you know, the Weeble's wobble with they don't fall down, those little egg-shaped characters.

Yeah. And that's really what it comes down to is creating that dynamic in your own life. You take the shots, you get hit, you get knocked off center, how fast do you come back up? I mean, that is really a life skill that can't be footstumped enough on how critically important that is, especially in a dynamic and ever changing world that's moving, you know, speed of life is a speed of light. And we don't have to participate in all that chaos, but I'm just saying we are going to take our hits. And that's what I love about, too, the stoic philosophy, you know, the stillness, all the things that there's so much crossover in the stoic philosophy with native traditions that I think that's why I've always really kind of been drawn to that.

So there's a lot to be said for humility, learning as you go, you're going to have your butt handed to you in a basket more times than you wish you would. But that's also where we grow. I mean, honestly, I wish it wasn't like this, but we don't learn a lot when things are going well. We just don't. Yes. I mean, we're kind of, yeah, it cruise control, but we learn a lot. We transform in those moments where everything goes perishing and things are falling apart. What's like, you know, when you're lifting weights that you can easily handle, you're not really growing, but it's when you're having to struggle with it that you're, you figure

stuff out and it's like, yet getting into the academy is, you know, something that very few people do. But then you're in there with a bunch of people who have done that, right? Like this is how it is in books, right? Like how many people want to write books, how many people are writing books, then how many people get book deals, right? This is a narrow or narrow funnel. But when you get there, you're not the only one.

Like you think about how many people sign a book deal the exact same day as you. There's dozens of people, right, or hundreds of people. And now all of you are battling it out to see who really deserves it, right, who's really got the stuff. And then, and then the battle of like who can do it sustainably over a long period of time, right? And it's key. Yeah. To me, that's how do you adjust, right? You make it to the NBA. And now you're a rookie, along with all the other members of the rookie class. And none of the people are like,

oh, we're so glad you're here. We wanna help keep you here. It's like, they wanna get rid of you. They wanna chew you up and spit you out. And can you adjust to that sort of new hostile environment? Yes or no, that is, in some ways to me, the essence of the kind of warrior ethos is like, can you adapt to an environment that does not want to adapt to you?

Right. And that really is the warrior ethos. It's digging into your deeper stuff and bringing it out in a moment where you need it the most because at the end of the day, that whole warrior concept that I talk about in the book, the warrior within, is all about service. Yeah, it wasn't about personal glory, it wasn't about, you know, what you could get, it was what you could do for somebody else. And when you talk about that contribution, when you get, when you move yourself out of the picture and say, it's not about me, it's about developing myself so I can be, you know, have a better impact with people I serve,

you have a different kind of alignment and motivation at that point to keep getting up when you get knocked down, to keep moving forward when you feel stuck. But that is, like I said, I, I, it's tough to get into that mode where every chance you have, when you go forward, you get into a bigger arena, every time you think you got to figure it out, it changes.

That's really what it comes down to. And as long as you're okay with that, you can adapt to pretty much anything. I mean, that's the gift to the human mind, right? We can get used to darn near anything, whether it be on the good side of the scale or the bad, which is our blessing and our curse, right? Well, you know, it's funny. Yeah, the idea of being absurd is because I think people think like the NBA, to think, you know, the military, to think Harvard, but all these elite institutions, it is, it is a hostile, unwelcoming environment. But if you're in it, you know, like on reality

TV shows, they're like, I'm not here to make friends, right? If you come into it, hostile, right? If you come into it hostile, like it seems like that would be an attribute, but I feel like those sort of selfish only in it for myself people are also pretty fragile and tend to get back what they give, you know, like that. And so that must be strange. You're like, hey, I'm in this, I'm fighting for this thing against these unlikely odds. Success, I've worked so hard for this. And yet, if you're solely motivated by that, not some deeper purpose, some bigger contribution, not only does I think it would it make success

be kind of empty, it's actually not a great strategy. Most warrior cultures are kind of that band of brothers thing. Right, right. Yeah, and you're dealing with such a small picture when you're just coming at it from the self. You have such a small arena to work within. When you expand that out and say,

it's so much more than just me. It's trying to develop myself so I can be a better impact, contribute more to my team, to my tribe. That has a whole different feeling attached to it. That means when we do get knocked down, it's like, who am I not to get back up and keep moving? I'm not doing this just for me.

Yeah, I'm upset. I'm mad. I'm p-o-d. I'm hurt. I'm frustrated, but it's not about me. This is the time where we we gotta keep moving forward. And that's why it's also critical to surround ourselves with good people for that reason.

The ones who are also warriors beside us, behind us in front of us, that's one of the things I talk about in the book, warriors never fought alone for that reason. No, as I was preparing for it. It's easy to hit the chicken switch. Sorry. No, as I was preparing for my talk, I was reading about Wesley Brown, who was the first

black graduate of the Naval Academy in 1949. And I came across this story. So Jimmy Carter is, I think, one year ahead of him at the Naval Academy, he grows up in a small rural segregated town in Georgia is basically, you know, as primed to be as racist as one could be, given his backgrounds. And he sees sort of how the other cadets or midship and treat this guy who's having a really difficult time. And Jimmy Carter just sticks his head in his room one day and says, like, hey man, hang in there. Like I'm rooting for you.

And he was the only person in the entire naval academy that did this for this guy. And he talks about sort of how instrumental that was in actually making him hang in there. And I think about that because, you know, so often, again, we think of the sort of warrior, as a thing within, or the warrior mindset is being this thing that's about us, us against the world.

But it's really about the tribe, it's about the community, it's about what you do for the person next to you, that not only helps them, it makes the group stronger, but I think, you know, it makes you stronger also, because at least it imbues your cause or your success with some kind of significance or goodness that isn't just I'm trying to get ahead for me. Right.

Yeah, you're attaching to something much bigger. You know, you're drawing power from places that are way beyond you, you know, and that's the coolest part. It's almost like your channel enlightening at that moment of strength of courage. There's one of the things I've talked about in the book, borrowed courage. Yes, came from a story of a friend of mine who's a firefighter who, I'd love that term. And that's why his story is in there. It's about being around other people who've been there, done that, and being able to borrow a little bit of that courage and confidence, and trying it on

like a shirt, and then saying, okay, I think I can do this too. And that's how we grow into that next level, and then that next level, and that next level. And it never stops. We never get there. That's the crazy thing is, you know, this is life is meant to be lived until we draw our last breath.

And as we're, you know, breathing and have blood in our veins, we've got another opportunity to do it better. Yeah, I feel like just like hatred or selfishness or cowardice, that's contagious. So is courage and positivity and connectedness and goodness. Like, and so what, I guess to me, that's a critical question. Also, what are you radiating outward?

Yes. Are you contributing to things getting better, coming together, people believing in something, or are you that sort of, that negative force that's pulling those things in the other direction? Yeah. And that's a choice we get to make. Yeah, we didn't choose the circumstances we're in.

The last couple of years have been nuts for everybody, really tough, heartbreaking at times, definitely fearful. We didn't choose the circumstances that we're in, but we always get to choose who we are and how we are as we step through moments like this. I mean, that's in our realm of control. And especially choosing to be, you know, the positive one or choosing to be the complainer,

that's a choice we get to make every day too, but it's a critical one, because it doesn't just affect our own, you know, well-being and strength, but it definitely does infect the people around us. I mean, it's one of the best ways, you know, when we talk about leadership by example, that's the only model that works.

That's it. Honestly, everything else is lip service. Because do as I say, not as I do, didn't work for us as kids, it doesn't work for us as adults. It doesn't hold water. You know what I mean? Now, the definition of stoicism

is we don't control the circumstances, but we control our responsive of circumstances. And like, honestly, we are much more constrained than we would like to admit about like the actions that we take, but our moods, our opinions, the story, that is always us, right? Even in prison, even as a POW, even in the midst of injury, like, like, you're in a hospital bed, you don't control whether you get up and walk around, right? Like your biology, gravity, all these other things are acting on you,

but whether you're hopeful or not, that's you. That is at the core of it, the last thing they can take from us is the story we tell ourselves about the circumstances that were in. That's it, that's it. And I'm kind of to that by the people I've run into in my travels, the books I've read, the stories. Yeah, prisoners of war, Charlie Plum, somebody like that, who everything was taken away for years on end. That would have broke most mortal people.

But the fact that he was telling himself something in his own mind about his experience, he was defining it. He wasn't letting the enemy define his experience. He was defining it for himself. And that is always in our control. And it's, you know, people who have been through tragedy or had accidents or, you know, terrible illnesses, incursorations. I mean, you name it. We constantly get these reminders that that is where our power is. It's not in the circumstances that we find ourselves in. It's in the way that we define them and what they mean to us. Right. It's not much, but it's enough. Sometimes that's all we need. Yeah. So, so what I liked about the book, you're sort of talking about, you kind of start with like what a warrior isn't.

Because I feel like people have some very preconceived notions of what a warrior is. I feel like we chipped away at a few of them, but there is this kind of, just like, you know, people, when people hear the word stoic, they think something. I'm a human. A lot. Yeah. Which is kind of similar, like, they kind of think, when people hear the word stoic, they think something. And we should let's hear a lot. Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of similar, like they kind of think that about a warrior, but they also kind of think like aggressive, you know, you know, angry, you know, like ambitious. You know, there is that kind of stereotype of what a warrior is. What do you think? What are the ones that you find yourself pushing up against the most?

Just the Hollywood image, you know, We have totally morphed. I always approach that warrior role and concept from a tribal standpoint, from our traditions, because it's very different than what we see on TV or in movies. It's not that Hollywood image that sweaty children character that shoot shooting bazookas and 8 million bullets and knock-in-down buildings, you know, an occasional surly looks at the camera. You know, it's something that's much deeper and more meaningful than that. It's somebody who is a willing servant, somebody who serves first, you know, leads by example, fights for something bigger than self. But at the end of the day, as a contributor to their tribe, that makes their purpose

to be of benefit to the people that they serve. That was the whole role. But what a fighter isn't, we talk about that. Do you say that there's a difference between a warrior and a fighter? Yes, that's what I was just going to say. Yeah. And those get mixed up, too, because when we're a fighter, we're willing to use our time and energy and effort to achieve something that we basically are the primary beneficiary

of. It helps us, but it doesn't really serve the collective or our tribe. When we become a warrior, we're using that same type of effort to achieve something for everyone, to have an impact, a positive impact for more than just us. So, you know, the fighter role can become really boxed in, you know, where we're just kind of like

startling in the corner and we're stepping up to anybody who gets it our way. That's not what the warrior concept is about. The warrior concept is getting out of our own way so that we can continue to contribute and grow even when we're scared. When we get the wind knocked out of us or get our teeth knocked out, we fall down, we're embarrassed, we're, you know, whatever may be going on, that we keep moving forward because we realize it's not just about us. of what you're just talking about, the distinction between a warrior and a fighter. And it's in the new Showtime series about Uber, but I think Mark Cuban actually said it about Travis Kalanick,

the founder of Uber, he said, the greatness or the strength of Travis Kalanick is that he can run through walls, right? And he says, but his fatal flaw is that he thinks everything is a wall. There he is. Right. And so the problem with being a fighter, I feel like as you develop this reputation, particularly early on, is like, I fight for what's mine. I won't be stopped. Like, I see,

you kind of start to see everything as an enemy or an obstacle or something to barrel through. But like, as you become more successful, actually, collaboration, team, you know, avoiding pointless battles. That is actually more the name of the game, and you've learned this terrible lesson, which is like head to where the action is. And meanwhile, there's like an unblocked path right here that you can head down and go even faster. Yeah. And some people that get addicted to the fight, that's the problem, is they start to lose the idea of the big picture, really what you're trying to achieve here. And like I said, if you're trying to achieve a positive impact with a group bigger than yourself, you're

going to have to take those other options and not look at everything as a nail and you've got one tool, the hammer, to use every single time. That's not the case. If you're thinking bigger, you realize that there's times that we have to get out of our own way, we have to collaborate, coordinate, sometimes say we're wrong, ask for help, get extra resources, go outside of ourselves, and say that there's got to be a better way to do this. And, you know, we lose ourselves. Like I said, I think people get in that mode and it's hard to shut it off of, you know, I'm going to anybody who crosses me is going to, you know, feel my wrath, you know, and

you really start to become, you ruin your mission when you do that. You become the toxic one people are trying to avoid because frankly, who wants to play with people like that? Well, no, there's that expression, which I love. It's like, if everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole. And it's like, if you're finding yourself fighting all the time, maybe you have to do step back and go,

am I picking these fights? You know, like, if everything is difficult, if everything is a battle, maybe you're the cause of that, not like your life is just stacking one difficult situation in front of you after another. You got it. And that takes courage. That takes courage to step back and make up. Maybe the problem is me. What am I doing to contribute to these, you know, these messes that I keep stepping into? Is the world just full of messes? Or am I the one creating

it? Yeah. So that takes a clear eye view of ourself to really be introspective and realize that sometimes we're the one who have to change. Yeah, and look like a country and an organization, it needs warriors, but it also needs diplomats and statesmen, right? People who, like, if you're solving all your problems with your military, this is a meaningless figuratively, but also literally, like Like you're probably not availing yourself of some less costly, less gruesome, less bloody solutions to your problems.

And I think it's so Travis Kalinick is just crashing into wall after wall and not questioning why is this wall here? Am I going this direction? What if I did this instead? And you can only do that for so long until you might become very successful, but it's probably not a happy form of success. And eventually, it probably has the seeds of your own destruction in it. Yeah, there's a cost to that.

You can achieve so much with that. But I think it's not sustainable. I think there's a very deep cost to operating that way. You tend to start pushing people away. You start losing opportunities. It's bad for us. It leads us to burnout. Our anxiety is always at a high level.

Because you're always in fight mode. You're always vigilant. Constantly head on a swivel. Everybody's a threat. Everything's a problem. And again, everything's a nail to be hammered down. And that can get you so far, and that's the dangerous part. You can be functional enough

until it all crashes around you, and then you stand back and look at the debris field and say, what the hell happened here? Yeah, that's the question for you. So, yeah, I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of monomeths, right? That we sort of, all these cultures share the same ideas. The myth, you know, the hero's journey being one of them. I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of monomeths, right? That we sort of all these cultures share the same ideas.

Of the myth, the hero's journey being one of them. Obviously, every culture has a warrior culture, right? You know, whether we're talking about the Spartans or the samurai or the Greeks or the Romans or the Western, the pioneers of the West, and then obviously the Native American culture. Do you, and there's a lot of similarities clearly, right? But have you found that there is anything distinct or unusual or you think we're celebrating

in the sort of native warrior tradition that maybe we're not as familiar with? Definitely, a lot. And that's why I love that archetype, because you're right, there's warrior cultures across. And I'm fascinated by those. I'm a history, you know, above constantly reading. But yeah, the reason why our warrior culture to me has always been such a great model,

whether you're native or not as irrelevant, and these principles can apply to whoever uses them. But because our warriors were fueled by love, by compassion, by commitment to their tribe. And like I said, it was all about service. It wasn't about personal glory. It was about serving and getting, you know, moving yourself out of the way to realize

that it wasn't about you. It was about your tribe that you were there to protect, to defend, to fight for, die for. So it was a model that was based on compassion and love more than anything in a very deep commitment. So I love that part. There's a lot of other principles too that, you know, like you said, warriors never fought alone. Warriors were not bulletproof.

I mean, that's one of the things too that I think is one of the biggest ways that we sell our warrior concept short. Yes, when we look at these icons like Chief Joseph for Crazy Horse or Sitting Bull as people without fear. And it couldn't be further from the truth. They dealt with pain, they dealt with fear, and they did what they did anyway, which made

them even more of a real life superhero in my mind than if they were that fearless, never needed help from anybody type of personality. But we set it up as almost as myth that's unachievable. So what I try to do in the book is make it. People feel inadequate that they don't measure up to the myth and it was, it's not based on anything real. Exactly. They struggled like anybody. They felt pain. They went through, you know, they made mistakes. They made stumbles. Um,

and so that's what I try to do in the book is make that whole idea very achievable by laying out those principles that help us become a better version of us in service to our tribe. But that's what makes I think our warrior culture very different than some of the other ones in history. Yeah, one of my favorite quotes from Hemingway, he says, you know, when people bring so much courage into the world, the world will try to break them. And then he says, those who break can become stronger at the broken places, but those who will not break the world kills. And I think, you know, if you think that you're sort of unbreakable or bulletproof, as you say in the book, like, life will find a way to disobey you of that notion quite painfully. Quite painfully.

And if you continue to resist and you think you're, you're think you're above or beneath asking for help or expressing vulnerability or weakness, like then you're, then you're doubly lost. Like, and that, that does seem to be a universal tragedy of a lot of the warrior cultures, is that inability to be like, I'm struggling, I'm hurting, invisible wounds, et cetera.

Like, it's like, actually in meditations, Mark really says, like, look in the heat of a battle, you would never think twice about asking a comrade for help, right? If you stumbled or you needed to be lifted up over a wall, but it is, it is tragic that afterwards, right, we don't want to avail ourselves of the same benefits of community. Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, it's actually the highest expression of courage.

Sure. Just to be able to say, I need help because again, the goal is to still make that contribution, to still make a way forward. The goal isn't to preserve our own ego. You know, our waters were very clear in their role. It was to feed and protect their people, not to feed and protect their ego. And when we get those things mixed up,

you know, we set ourselves on this place where we start painting ourselves into a corner and we think that asking for help or outside resources is weak, where we admit we don't know everything. You know, like I mean, there are these crazy stories we tell ourselves about what we think we're supposed to be, and we get out of the way of actually becoming what we could be.

And so, but I love that broken spot. You know, it's like that's one of the things that, sometimes we do have to be broken to let the new growth through. Whether it's a walk by a sidewalk and that concrete's broken, there's a flower shooting up. It wouldn't have happened if that didn't break. But unfortunately, it's pretty painful to go through. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the story. Sometimes it's the beginning of a new one. Have you seen that Kitsugi pottery?

Do you know what this is? Yes, exactly. That's when you brought that up. Yeah. Yeah. Which is amazing because they're basically taking something that is broken and making a more beautiful piece of art through that experience. You know, one of the other things I've been just more beautiful, like literally more

valuable, right? Like before it was a bowl made of porcelain, and now it is a bowl with porcelain and gold or silver in it, right? And I think we forget that too, like the soldier or the leader or the husband or the father or the human being that has gone through something,

asked for help, shared about it, learned from it, is a better person like who were the group? It's a more valuable person. You talked about the elder earlier who gave you advice, like an elder that had never struggled, never gone through anything, had it been broken. I mean, how much could they teach you, right? Like they are valuable to you because of the struggles. You're right, and how much real connection teach you, right? Like they're valuable to you because of that, the struggles.

You're right. And how much real connection would you have to somebody like that? Yes. Yeah, it's never been through anything like that. There's no way to really, there's no approachability there. You know, but those people who, you know, well, and it's also setting a good example for other people too. Yes.

I think that's what is needed more in the world is be able to step up and be courageous and I have to say, you know, we all struggle, we all stumble. I'm going through it too. I made this mistake. I'm recovering from it. You know, whatever it may be, because that ultimately connects you to people in a very deep or much deeper way. Then just saying, follow me, I've got it all figured out all the time every day 24, 7.

Never made a mistake, haven't made a mistake since 82 and actually that wasn't a mistake either. Yeah, like when I see the obstacles the way, it might not be the way for you, right? Like the fact that you went through something, it might not, the benefit of what you went through might not accrue to you. Like, you made a mistake and it blew up your marriage and you got a divorce, right? That isn't magically the best thing that ever happened to you.

That's not what we mean when we say that there's opportunity in that. It may be that somebody else can learn from your example, right? You know, and I think we so often again, sort of selfishly think about like, well, what am I gonna get out of this? How is this good for me? But if you think about it as your part of a hive or a tribe or a community or an organization,

you're like, well, I'm gonna note this down. So next time somebody else is going down this road, I can, I have a roadmap for them. Yeah, and you also, by the way, have a lot more empathy for your fellow human being when you go through pain and struggle as well, because that's the thing that we all hold in common. You know, one of the things, I love one of the clips

that you had the other day I was watching, saying that, you know, we should be happy that it's hard. Yeah, embrace that. And when I first started, I was like, I don't wanna hear that. But it's so true because that is where the growth happens. And that's one of the things that I go back to and I talk about it in the book too.

Our traditional ceremonies were really, really hard, really rigorous. I went through Sundance, I've been through VisionQuest four years. I mean, these were some of the hardest experiences I've ever had in my life. And you give up your food, your water, your shelter, your community for those time periods,

and it's extremely difficult. But what you get in place of that is growth. You're transformed. Every one of those ceremonies I went through and endured, I was different afterwards because of it. And that's one of the things that you don't get when things are easy and things are smooth, but my gosh, when things are really hard

and you're really struggling through it, that's when our best stuff comes out. And it's like a forest fire. Some trees don't even germinate their seeds unless they have the intense heat of a fire. The quote from Mildred Whit Stoven. And I'm terrible with quotes, but I remember this one. It is a clay pot sitting in the sun will always be a clay pot. It has to go through the white heat of a furnace to become porcelain. Right.

A lot of that. What's interesting too is that, again, to go to this idea of asking for help, and there's this kid's book I like to read to my kids called The Boy the Fox, The Horse in the Mole, and one of the pages, the horse says, asking for help is not giving up, it's refusing to give up.

Wow, yeah. But like the irony is, like you think, like, oh, I don't wanna burden these people with this. I don't wanna make it their problem, I don't want to burden these people with this, I don't want to make it their problem, I don't want to seem weak. Actually, I feel like some of the most significant, ultimately, beneficial relationships in my life have come from that vulnerable bit. I was struggling with something, I was going through something, and I reached out to someone

who maybe I ordinarily wouldn't have talked to or ordinarily wouldn't have broken through the ice of formalities or, you know, acquaintance in this through. And because I shared that thing or because we worked through this thing, now we have a shared history that would be more beneficial than like they did me a huge favor But our relationship is better than if I had done them a huge favor Do you know what I mean? Like because they they helped me and now they feel an interest in You know my continued success and that's what like elders are looking for an opportunity to do that

But they can't give it to you if you are pretending you don't need it. You got it. You got it. And this is what's fascinating. I was just thinking about this as you were explaining that is why people get so bonded. Like I'll speak from personal experience, go through something like basic training or going through survival school. I did in the military.

You get bonded to people so fast because everybody is in the struggle together. Yeah. And like you said, or Marcus Rillius said, as in war, you wouldn't think twice of asking somebody for help or help over a wall. And that's those moments where you are just stripped down and you're, you know, you get out of your own way. Yeah. And it's again, one of those things you have to do to get through it. But then we get out of those moments and then all of a sudden we keep everything behind closed doors and don't want to ever admit we need anything from anybody, you know, and that's one of the reasons why I wrote the book too is because service providers

is who I have worked with for, you know, almost three decades now. You know, people in healthcare and education, a government service, people who are giving, giving, giving, and even when they struggle, they don't reach out for the help that they need. And it's one of the terrible things because the intentions are noble and pure

from what I've found through years of work and with groups like this. But the execution becomes a hot mess. Because when we stop asking for help, we start limiting how good we can become at what we do and who we are. The moment that we think we can't admit that we don't know all the answers

is the moment we paint ourselves into a corner. So I do know that's a great point. It's like if you're not, you're just missing a lot of opportunities for connection and growth. And ultimately, it's kind of selfish, right? So if you're struggling and you're not dealing with your shit and you're not trying, you're not,

you're too proud to ask for help, et cetera. Ultimately, you aren't depriving the tribe or the group or the organization of you at your best, right? There you go. You're just not at 100% and that's selfish. But obviously, if you take yourself out of commission or worse, we see the rise in suicides and such, like you are depriving the organization

or the team or humanity as a whole, something that would benefit it because you're not willing or able to ask for this thing that I think you would be surprised to find they very much want to give you. Yeah, I agree 100% and life will keep teaching us that lesson until we get it. That's the thing that I found too.

Every time you think, you're like, okay, I'm asking for help, okay, now I'm going to go back to doing it on my own. And then you run into another one of those moments of anxiety or heartbreak or things fall apart. You're like, okay, now I need to reach out again. But now you get to a point where you just start trusting in that process, that to be your best self, you can't rely on only yourself. We're all, you know, we all struggle, we all need help,

we all need outside resources, and the more okay we are with that, the better we become, the stronger we become, and the more resilient we become. Last question for you. Do you have kids? I do, two daughters. How have you taught other than example, how do you think about instilling the sort of the warrior tradition to your kids?

How do you help them cultivate the warrior within? Based on what we're talking about right now, that there's always going to be a struggle that you need to take care of yourself because the more that we neglect that part, our power gets diminished. So it's taking care of yourself. It's surrounding yourself with good people because we're all going to need that moment or we need that support. To remember that you don't have to have all the answers that you'll figure it out in time, and that you keep finding a way to put one foot

in front of the other and move forward. And they have had a lot of opportunities to work on that last couple of years. I've been really tough with the pandemic and first rule and all that. What's that? How old are they? 16 and 21.

Wow, okay. So they took the brunt of it as young adults that like my kids are, are five and two. So it's like it's been hard, but they're also not aware of how hard and why it's so hard. If you get hit at 14 or at 19 would be so difficult because you would know what's happening, but not fully have all the tools or the autonomy

to respond how you might like to respond. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it has been a struggle, but it's one of those things that they constantly inspire me because they're finding a way forward. I mean, that's one of the things we've talked about too. And I've also gotten that in the book is, we can surrender, but we never quit.

Yeah, surrender is when you stop doing the thing that you keep doing because it's not producing anymore results. And sometimes you're the problem like we talked about earlier. Quitting is when you just throw in the towel and walk away. And as long as you don't do that, you always have another opportunity

to keep moving forward. So doing it. And they make me proud because they've done a lot in the last couple of years that have blown me away. Well, and I've got to imagine this sort of Native American tradition. We've been talking about tradition is, you know, it's long been an oral tradition. It's stories. It's myths.

It's ideas. Is that been part of how you've approached being a parent is like sort of carrying on the same things you were talking about with your grandmother, like teaching you those things or ideas that, you know, who even knows how far back they reach, but the sort of process of repeating them is how we keep the values going.

Yeah, I'm a huge proponent of the world tradition. And I don't tell my girls necessarily the traditional stories that are elders tell, but I'm a huge proponent of story. I always have been, like I said, I don't remember most of what my thermodynamics class was like at the academy, but I remember stories my grandma told me when I was six. So I've tried to instill that with my daughters of telling stories of struggle and victory and defeats and all these different moments in my life that hopefully will help them during theirs.

And that's really what it comes down to is trying to get another piece of the puzzle to make somebody else's journey a little bit smoother than maybe ours was. And that probably goes back to you being a little kid reading biographies too, right? Because what is a biography? But the epic story of a great man or woman and what they went through and how we might apply that in our own circumstances. You got it. You got it. Yeah, because if they did it, maybe I could too.

Yeah, that's always a takeaway, right? What do you see when these folks went through? But I love reading them. We're absolutely right. I don't want to do what they did because that worked out very badly. That too, but it's all learning. You know, it's all learning and that's a good thing.

But it's definitely inspiring to see, you know, people we hold in high esteem did not have an easy route. And that's why I'm such a fan of biographies. It's like we look at these people, these men and women as heroes and they did your rogue things. When you look at their story, they come back to us so quickly

because they have been through some of the same things we're going through or a lot worse. And so we look at their story with a kind of a new perspective and a new appreciation that life's not always going to be easy, but we can always find a way to keep moving forward if we don't quit. Yeah, yeah, you talked about sitting with all our crazy horse. It's like, they were still human beings who had human problems, right? In addition to X, Y, and Z plus a million things we can't even conceive of. And you sort of, I think that's what I love about history is going like, oh, people have always been people and we have always been struggling with the same things. Yeah, and if we embrace that, we can move forward.

If we resist it or think life's unfair, everybody's out to get us. That's where the progression stops. It's like this is part of being a human being. Life's a challenge, it always will be. Till we draw our last breath, we're all in the fight, and we can do it well and struggle well Or we can kind of throw in the towel or paint ourselves into a corner

So went and I think you know the idea of there being a tradition, you know I was earlier that idea of theater Roosevelt and you know, he's wants to be like these people the idea that we get to choose Senna as this great line. It says we can't choose our parents But we can choose whose children we want to be. Right? So like choosing, like, hey, I belong to this warrior tradition, even if my parents weren't into it, even if I don't actually know how far back my ancestry goes

or what, like, even if I'm a first generation this or that, like to be like, no, like, I'm buying into the American story. Like, the American dream is mine, right? Or I'm, I'm buying into the the Air Force culture or the literary culture or, you know, wherever you happen to live, whatever you identify with, I think the idea of going like, I'm part of this warrior tradition. Right. And these are the values that I'm going to follow.

I think if you can give your kid a broad swath of those to choose from and they can pick the one that's theirs, I mean, to come from a tradition is such an incredible thing. And I think part of the tragedy of a lot of, I think, American life these days is that we all kind of feel disconnected from a tradition because we don't really know what it is, right? And we don't feel like we're the descendants of this or that. We're just kind of a drift, you know? Yeah, yeah, and that was one of the reasons I wrote the book too, is I wanted to make that like I said, accessible. Because this concept is so powerful and so useful. And so beautiful, in my opinion, that it transcends race, it transcends age or gender

or stage of life. It's a path that's there for anybody willing to follow it. But it's a great one to be on. Because like I said, it comes back to contribution, it comes back to really using our assets that we've been given and continuing to develop on. Because like I said, it comes back to contribution, it comes back to really using our assets that we've been given and keep continuing to develop those so we can have an impact in the world and make it a better place. And it sounds like cliche, but I mean, if we're not here to do that, why the hell are we here at all? I love it. No, that's right. It feels a little like lame, but like where would we be if people weren't willing to be vulnerable

enough to be like, no, I'm trying to make the world a better place. You would not want to live in a world where no one was trying to do that. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So as long as we acknowledge that, we've got that, you know, that bright spot in front to shoot for, we've got to target. But yeah, who wants to live in a world where like, I'll just see what happens or, you know, at least it's not as bad as it used to be.

I mean, just, I don't know, we've all been around people like that. I feel like my spirit gets sucked out, you know, when you're around people like that for too long. I totally agree. Well, my spirit feels very revived in this conversation and congrats on the book. And I appreciate you taking the time.

Thank you, Ryan. Greatly appreciate it. Outer to be here. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us, and it would really help the show. We appreciate it, and I'll see you next episode.

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