The Daily Stoic - ESPN’s Seth Wickersham on the Patriots, Tom Brady and Greatness

Episode Date: November 13, 2021

Ryan talks to Seth Wickersham about his book It's Better to Be Feared: The New England Patriots Dynasty and the Pursuit of Greatness, the struggle and tension that exists in the pursuit of greatness, how Tom Brady has cultivated greatness and maintained it throughout his career, and more.Seth Wickersham is an American sports writer for ESPN and ESPN The Magazine. He has written for ESPN.com and ESPN The Magazine since graduating from the University of Missouri in 2000. His work primarily covers the National Football League (NFL) and has been featured on Outside the Lines, SportsCenter, NFL Live, The Ryen Russillo Show, and E:60.Blinkist is the app that gets you fifteen-minute summaries of the best nonfiction books out there. Blinkist lets you get the topline information and the most important points from the most important nonfiction books out there, whether it’s Ryan’s own The Daily Stoic, Yuval Harari’s Sapiens, and more. Go to blinkist.com/stoic, try it free for 7 days, and save 25% off your new subscription, too.Ten Thousand makes the highest quality, best-fitting, and most comfortable training shorts I have ever worn. They are a direct-to-consumer company, no middleman so you get premium fabrics, trims, and techniques that other brands simply cannot afford. Ten Thousand is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. go to Tenthousand.cc and enter code STOIC to receive 15% off your purchase.Trade Coffee will match you to coffees you’ll love from 400+ craft coffees, and will send you a freshly roasted bag as often as you’d like. Trade is offering your first bag free and $5 off your bundle at checkout. To get yours, go to drinktrade.com/DAILYSTOIC and use promo code DAILYSTOIC. Take the quiz to start your journey to the perfect cup.Competitive Cyclist is THE online specialty retailer of road and mountain bikes, components, apparel, and accessories. Go to competitivecyclist.com/DAILYSTOIC and enter promo code DAILYSTOIC to get fifteen percent off your first full-priced purchase plus FREE SHIPPING on orders of $50 or more. Some exclusions apply.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://DailyStoic.com/signupCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Seth Wickersham: TwitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week

ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. One of my favorite books of all time and I've raved about it here. We carry it in my bookstore, The Pain in Ports, is the cost of these dreams by Wright Thompson. One of the greatest sports writers of all time.

Certainly of our time come a great dude who I've gotten to know a little bit. I had him on the Daily Soat Podcast if you didn't listen. Anyway, it's got an email from him out of the blue a couple of months back and said, Hey, you've got to read this new book by my friend, Seth Wickersham about the New England Patriots. I know that they'd read some of your books and I think you guys would like each other. I said, are you fucking kidding me?

Of course, that sounds like a book designed for me. So Seth sent me his new book. It's better to be feared. The New England Patriots dynasty, the pursuit of greatness, which I read actually while I was doing the launch for courage is calling. If you watch the vlog of me heading out to LA to do the promo tour, I believe you can see a shot of me reading it in the car as we're driving through Central California, stuck behind a wildfire. It's a big book, but it covers a long period of time. The entirety of the craft, Belicec, Brady, Dynasty, New England Patriots, one of the great sports

teams, great American success stories of all time, epic for sure. Seth does an amazing job of doing the book. I've read a bunch of other books about the New England Patriots. I love, of course, my friend Michael Mbarty's book, Gridiron Genius. I love, you know, Connor's book, Belly Check. I love Halberstrand's book, Education of Coach. All books I carry in the bookstore, by the way, you should pick up. But this one, while it's not a hatchet job, definitely there were people in the book who were not pleased, who disagreed with things. Seth is a real journalist, right?

He's not writing some celebratory book, but he is, I think, more interested in what makes them great than trying to tear them down, which I certainly appreciated. You know, there's a talk about in today's interview, there's some parallels between him and Tom Brady, sort of both pursuing greatness in their respective fields. Certainly, I related to that storyline. I really enjoyed it in the book, but there's the thing we talk about that really hit me the most.

You wouldn't, you wouldn't think certainly in a book about the New England Patriots and Belly Checking Brady. There'd be much talk about work, life, balance, but I actually found that to be one of the most salient messages in the book, again, to go to Wright-Thompson's books. There's also a strong sense of the cost of greatness, right? What the cost of these dreams are, what it takes out of a person. The struggle to be happy while chained to what the Greeks would call a day-monger or a sort of a genius in ambition and the tension and how difficult, extraordinarily difficult that is. So I'm very excited to bring you this interview about one of the great sports franchises of all time. We touch on a bunch

of stoic themes with Seth. He was kind enough clearly to familiarize himself with a little bit of my work and stoicism as well and was familiar obviously with the way that some of the stoic writings had made their way to the Patriots. But overall, I really love this book. I was so looking forward to this conversation and I think you are going to like it too. Seth is a writer for ESPN, ESPN, the magazine. He's been on Sports Center a million times. He's Profile Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Bill Bella, Chepp John L. Wait, among others. And he's written deep dives on the Browns,

the Seahawks, the Patriots. He's won awards from the National Association of Black Journalists and the Pro Football Writers Association. You can follow him at Seth Wickersham on any platform. But if you don't read this book and if you don't read his writing, you are missing out on some amazing insights which we preview here in today's episode. I don't know about you, but it's fun to put out a book because you spent so much time, energy on and you want the world to see it, but then it's also very disruptive to your life.

But that's what we want, right? I mean, that's the headache that we all want to contend with. I guess, but maybe I'm more like the Patriots, with. I guess, but it's maybe I'm more like the Patriots, in that, in that, like, I like the grind of doing the thing, like the press conference after the game, whether you won or lost, I'm much less interested in than I am, like, getting back to my office and, you know, yeah, going on to Cincinnati or whatever. I hear you, I hear you, yeah, that makes sense. Because you have, I mean, you have a day job, right? Like you're all, like, you know, you're, you did this book, but like day to day, you're also trying to work on and file story.

So I imagine it's a little disruptive. No, you know, it has been, and this is my first book, and so I don't have a, I don't have a template for any other process, but the reception to this has been cool, and, you know, I know so many authors who put out books and you know they struggle to get you know one radio hit or one podcast or whatever and you know the reception to mine has been awesome and so you know, even though I answer the same questions a lot, it's a good problem to have. for the same questions a lot, it's a good problem to have. No, no, it's always better than obscurity or indifference.

But I think on my first book, I was like, I want as much media as possible. And then you hear your whole life about celebrities or movie stars who are complaining about the press tour. I'm sure nobody is complaining more about the press tour. I'm sure, you know, nobody's complained more about the media obligations than Bill Belichet, but to, you don't quite understand it until you realize what, how much it takes out of you as far as like, getting back to the work of either the next book

or the next story or whatever it is. Absolutely. And you answer the same questions a lot and you don't want to be routine or flip it in that. You know, it does take energy to answer the same question for the 1,000th time with the same energy as the first. Yes. And I think people kind of gloss over the fact

that especially like for a football coach or a writer, usually you became great at that thing because you're not an extroverted person who wants to, you know, like you, you, I got good at writing because I'm better at writing than speaking, right? And then suddenly, you're forced to explain this thing that you just slaved away at for a year. It's like, if I could have described this in two sentences, that's what I would have done. It is funny.

And it's also people always ask for some reason. It's like, the questions I get a lot are about the feedback, which is funny. And then people ask me, well, what didn't make it in the book? And I'm like, no, I wrote 160,000 words. Like, if I could have gotten it in there, I put it in, you know, sure, it's not really on my radar, what didn't make it in, but it's okay. What I thought was fascinating about the book, and I've read most of the books about the Patriots, and there's some good ones and some not so good ones.

But what I thought was interesting is this way, and maybe this is a good place to start, you sort of are, you and Brady start in the NFL, you writing about it in him as this sort of third string quarterback, at kind of the same time, and you're like vaguely aware of each other, your lives are intersecting in different ways. That, I thought that was an interesting device in the book.

You know, I think it's one of the reasons why I decided to write it, because you know, as luck would have it, I ended up graduating from college the same year that he did. And we both kind of got our career breaks at the same time. And I was hired at ESPN Magazine shortly after I graduated from college. And one of my very first, I got a lot of little stories to write.

And I got sent on the road to do little things. But in terms of doing big features, I didn't get many, I think my first one was a year, almost the day after I had started. And so when I would get one of those opportunities, I was like, I have to do the very best I possibly can with this. Otherwise, I may not get another one. And I remember my editors sent me to Foxboro,

Massachusetts midway through the 2001 season to write about this upstart who was filling in well for Drew Bledso, admirably for Drew Bludzo, and you know, would probably end up going back to the bench whatever it was. And I call the Patriots and I call Brady's agent to try to set up an interview. And I think I just got a note back from his agent saying,

yeah, you'll be hearing from Tom. And I actually missed the call. It was a 508 area code, which is a mass toothed area code. And I think he said to be at the stadium at something like five o'clock. It was around that time. And so I drove up to Foxboro from New York City where I was living at the time.

And I was waiting in the parking lot, and it was very dark. And this guy pulls up in a truck and I remember he waived, he kind of saw me as he was pulling up and he waived and yeah, that was the first time I met Tom Brady. We go into the, you know, the old stadium was like a high school stadium. It was ridiculous. It was embarrassing and we go in and we found a little table that was sort of near a gift shop and nobody stopped him.

He was wearing a gray sweatsuit and he carried a backpack that was full of beer like a college student because he had lost a Michigan-Michigan state vet. We sat down and it was kind of interesting to look back on because we were both kind of the same species. We were young men who were going in our careers and kind of getting our break at the same time. Of course, the next time I really spent any time with him, you know, that was over. His life had changed forever. And, you know, but even back at that time, it was just kind of interesting, you know, to look back on it. Yeah, I just reread two of my favorite novels, which are What Makes Sammy Run, and then The Great

Gatsby. And they both have that similar device that we're talking about where you have the sort of two people, they kind of start out on equal footings, and then one of them just becomes the biggest thing in the world. And they're sort of this, they kind of have this unique understanding of each other, but one is just very different, sort of one in a million type, and you're sort of both marveling, slash horrified, slash inspired, slash cautionary tale of like what it takes to be, you know, to follow that to its maximum conclusion as some characters and athletes and people do in life.

Absolutely. And this is not something I ever got into with Brady. I might have discussed it with his dad at some point. I can't remember. But, you know, I was obsessed with being a quarterback when I was in high school. And I worked, I went to various camps and I would work every day by myself throwing, throwing at stationary targets,

throwing to any human being who would run routes for me. And I wasn't as talented as I needed to be. And I never really like, progressed as a quarterback in high school. But I always, it just consumed me and I was obsessed with it. And I always wondered, you know, out of my high school class, class of 1995 around the entire nation, you know, who would be the great player out of that class and it ended up being him.

And he's the only Hall of Famer, you know, future Hall of Famer who will be a quarterback who will be from that class. And so, I think that that is something that, you know, even though at the time, remember, I didn't you know, in November of 2001, I was just looking to do this assignment as best I could. I had no clue that Brady was even going to finish the season as a starter, much less, you know, become Super Bowl MVP, much less become a global force as he's become. But I do remember that, you know, he said at one point, he was like, you know, footballs always come really easy to me. And I thought it was such an interesting thing to say, because first of all, I was like, what 24-year-old Six-Ram-Pix says something like that, right?

And then, you know, I think that it always stuck with me in a weird way, because he was fluent in a way in a game that I had tried to be and just couldn't be. And so I think that the mystery of, as you said, what it takes and what it takes to be great, what some of the costs of that are. And finally, what are these special qualities that allowed him to not only be a great player, but a transcendent athlete, are all themes that I tried to not only be a great player, but a transcendent athlete or all themes that, you know, I tried to explore in the book as best I could.

Yeah, his childhood, which you go into in the book, is fascinating to me because it's not normal, but it's sort of like middle-class normal. There doesn't seem to be any profound trauma. There doesn't seem to be that sort of tiger parent. And I mean that like not just in this the the tiger parent phrase, but also like tiger woods parent, you know, the athlete's hat. There didn't seem to be any of that. And yet he is not just profoundly driven, but then sort of so dominant in his profession. And I think usually we assume that to be both that great and that driven, it must come from a dark or dysfunctional place. Yeah. And I think that he probably felt slights a little bit more than you know, you might assume from someone who came from

such a loving, supportive, two-parent, you know, upper middle class, you know, type of family. You know, and I think there was probably always a disconnect between how he saw his, his talent, and maybe how the world perceived it, even though, you know, this is something that a lot of great athletes do and even, you know, kind of politicians is they have their internal narrative, right? We all have our stories that we tell ourselves about how we got to where we are that, you know, become kind of central to our own narrative, even if we leave out certain details or whatever. And I have this moment in the book. Obviously Brady's entire narrative, and he's returned to beat this drum throughout his life,

is that he was overlooked, and maybe people didn't want him. And he always, like I said, the game always came easy to him, but people didn't notice it. But people did notice it. And I did write about his high school coach. At one point in high school, Brady was practicing with his receivers and it was a windy day in San Mateo and the receivers were struggling to catch the ball. And so he's just thrown it harder and cranking up the heat and they're

still struggling to catch it. And he cannot handle it. He's losing his patience. He has a temper, which I write about often in the book Of which he's only you know controlled a little bit as an adult slightly better than he did as a child, but His coach finally pulls him aside his high school coach and he says you know You got to be more patient and Brady just didn't want to hear it and finally the coach just says look You're one of a kind. You're gonna be playing in 10 years. None of these other kids are gonna be doing that.

And it was really kind of the first time that someone spoke to Brady and saw him in a way that he saw himself. And while he wasn't Peyton Manning who got 55 scholarship offers or whatever it was at a high school, he had some pretty elite schools circling him, including, you know, as it turned out, the University of Michigan.

I mean, you're not overlooked if you get a scholarship as a quarterback to go to Michigan. Right. Yeah, you know, what's interesting is that it seems like both he and Bellicek have that ability to cultivate a sort of constant underdog mentality that drives them, whether it's fully based in anything real or not, it's somewhat beside the point. Absolutely. And I would put it a little bit differently, and it actually goes, you know, there's some of the themes that result in that that are

kind of some of the things you write about in courage is calling. I mean, they're not Abraham Lincoln, but, you know, they have their own ways of redefining what's possible and not settling for other people's idea of the inevitable. And I think that with them, the way to look at it is that they both came into each other's lives at a fascinating time. In 2000, both of them understood the inherent fragility in the profession that they were choosing, and they both needed the game in a way that was so central to their identity that I think that, forget about being happy, I don't know what

their self-image would look like without it. And, you know, Belluchek had had his life, you know, annihilated in Cleveland when the Browns moved to Baltimore, and he had to wait five years for another chance, and then went, you know, and ended up going five and eleven that first year in New England, and then you had Brady who, you know, even though he was, you know, overcame a lot. And you talk about, you know, for what from his childhood, you know, hurt him in a deep way. Obviously, college, he was broken and he had to put himself back together again. But, you know, he almost went undrafted. And so both of these guys, without really been knowing each other, kind of possess this same innate,

I mean, it's a drive, I guess, but it's more like the knowledge that something that they hold so dear to them can be taken away at any time and what would life look like without that? And I think it's one of the reasons why, frankly, they haven't been able to stop, you know, two decades later.

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you go as the enemy I was looking at Michael Jordan, because he also has that same drive. He manufactures slides sort of his driven vindictiveness is the wrong word, but it is a kind of like you, you, you manufactures this light and then is driven vindictiveness is the wrong word, but it is a kind of like sh, you, you, you, manufacturers this light and then is driven by proving you wrong for believing in the slight that he kind of made up. But, but there's, I don't know, there's a lot of stories obviously about Jordan and that sort of vindictiveness of like, you know, players that he heard or cruel

things that he said. Brady seems to have that tendency, Belicec 2, and I guess there's some horror stories about Belicec, but Brady seems to have danced off or maybe it doesn't exist. I'd be curious to your thought. Brady doesn't seem to have that edge to it. Did you, have you found that? Like, when you talk to players, are they like, no, just in private, he does X, or is it that he manages to sort of keep it within

either a reasonable bounds, or it's mostly directed at himself? Yeah, so later in the dynasty, Bella check, kind of, he always commissioned studies. He sends his assistants to go do them. Often there are statistical ones about all three agent running backs and their fumble history. Whatever it is. But he commissioned one that was interesting.

He wanted to know to do a psychological breakdown about a couple of mortal athletes and try to get at, you know, these inherent kind of traits that they had to see if the Patriots might be able to use it as a predictor in the draft. And they actually interviewed Michael Jordan, and Tiger Woods, and Kobe Bryant, and Tom Brady. And you're right, they all kind of had that edge to them, you know, where you almost like have to, you know, they're so hungry for slides and scars that even though they'll manufacture them at times. Yeah, like did you read that three-ring circus? You feel Jackson's book?

Oh, no, sorry, Jeff Proman's book. Yeah, you're like, wow, okay, Kobe, even worse than I thought. Well, he kind of, and he obviously, he just learned everything from the Jordan rules and from Michael Jordan and kind of put it on steroids, right? But Brady was different. It's not that he didn't have that in him.

He definitely had it, but I think that Midway through his career, he, and it's still going. So who actually knows when Midway might be, but he changed. And I think that, you know might be but he changed and I think that you know When he was younger, I think that stuff would fire him up a little bit more And then I think he started to realize that that Manufactured conflict was kind of fundamentally unhealthy and it's something that like he talked about with me He's talked about with other people and you know, he needed to try to find ways to

He just became more interested in like being a relentless positive thinker and all of his motivation being internal and not external. And maybe, I think that maybe he was around deflate gate, you know, that definitely helped him get through it, even though he was furious about it, but I think that maybe when he saw the world kind of collapse on him and so many people turned on him into flakeate, he felt like that he couldn't rely on that outside world for anything, but he definitely became more looking inward with everything.

And I think that when they did that study, Brady was different because again, it wasn't that he couldn't find motivation from any cliched scars or us against the world mentality but he seemed to thrive better when he was in a little bit more of a loving and kind of almost supportive environment which is interesting given you know where he ended up in Tampa Bay which is like you know clubbed in a lot of ways compared to the Patriots. Well no there's this stoic idea that I love.

It's hard to follow, but it's this idea that you are strict with yourself, but tolerant with others, right? And I think Kobe was a great example of someone who's just constitutionally incapable of doing that. I think there's a Rick Fox quote where it's like, you know, not everyone is Kobe Bryant, dude. Like you can't treat people as if they're you because you're just wired different. And Michael Jordan struggles that with a little bit.

But yeah, it does. There aren't a ton of horror stories about Tom Brady as a teammate, which I think is interesting because it is, it's so hard when you're driven and great. And when you have not just to fight expectations, but shattered what is even conceivably possible for a human being to not expect everyone else to like give their, to not just not be like you, but you just want them to like do their fucking jobs and not everyone does, right? And yet there doesn't seem to be horror stories about him in that way.

Seems to find a way to play with just about anyone. Yeah, he's a perfectionist, but he's not an asshole. And it's kind of interesting because he doesn't get... He has no problem yelling or getting a guy's face if they are not doing what they need to do, but he doesn't really make it personal in a way that Jordan did and even kind of Kobe did. There's a story in the book about Dante Stullworth, who was a receiver on that famous 2017 that

nearly went undefeated. And, you know, so this is the preseason. And Stahlworth was acquired along with Westwelker and Randy Moss to be Brady's new hot shot receivers. And Stahlworth is, even though he was a first round pick, is going like, you know, I don't know if I match up to him to these guys, you're talking about Randy Moss here and Tom Brady. And I got to really like get myself together.

So in a preseason game, stalwart is assigned a certain route that's a decoy route. And in the game, Brady throws him the ball. And stalwart wasn't running full speed. The ball gets intercepted. And Brady comes back and stalwart, they're on the sideline next to each other. And stalwart is like, this guy's going to start screaming at me.

I'm terrified. And instead Brady just sits next to him and he just stares at him. Just stares into his eyes right there on the bench until it's like so uncomfortable that stalwart is getting like leveled in a way that Brady could have never done verbally. He just stared at him and stared at him and stared at him and stared at him until it was so impossibly uncomfortable and then finally Brady turned away. And that was all he ever did in reaction to that play.

Well, I think we often, it's hard to give people credit for stuff that they could have gotten away with. But I think one of the reasons that people tolerated it from Jordan, from Kobe, from other athletes is that, like when you're the guy on the team, and we're seeing this now sort of a reckoning

with this and all of that, is that you can get away with being an asshole, or worse, right, as long as you're delivering the results. I think, I do think it makes it impressive, or it's somewhat more impressive that he could get away with. Like, I'm sure whatever he, if he had decided to say whatever he wanted, there wouldn't have been repercussions for it, right?

Yeah. Because he's Tom Brady. And so this idea of like, no, I'm even going to hold myself to a standard that I can probably get away with, you know, violating is, you know, is another level of kind of self mastery that I think again contributes to the greatness. It's not like, hey, look, he has this many rings, but look at the carnage behind him. There doesn't seem to be any of that. I've always found that impressive.

It really is. And he's, again, he's interesting because he always looks inward first. And when he got to Michigan, he told me, you know, he was a whiner and everything was somebody else's fault, why he wasn't playing, why when he practiced the one rep that he got, it wasn't going well. Whatever it was, he just, he thought he was the best quarterback on the team and felt like the world was conspiring to keep him off of the field. He was going to transfer to the University of California at Berkeley, closer to home. His parents could drive the games.

He meets with Lloyd Carr, the head coach at the time at Michigan, and he says, I'm going to leave. I'm going to go to Cal and Lloyd kind of wants him to sleep on it. That night, he goes to meet with Greg Hardin, who is his counselor. He had been a counselor at Michigan, and he'd never really talked to Greg Hardin much, but he had started to, but he tells Greg,

look, I can't get up on the death start here, I can't get on the field, I'm gonna leave. And what does Greg Hardin do? He starts laughing at him. He thought it was funny. He didn't like give Brady a hug. He didn't even do tough luck. He just thought the entire situation was funny.

And he goes, who gives a fuck if you leave? You wanna leave, go ahead. You even don't shit here anyway. Basically, you're saying no one's gonna care if you can't cut it and end up taking the easier route. And it really kind of appealed to Brady's internal fire and also forced him to grow up a little bit. So, so that night he decides he's gonna stay at Michigan. He tells Lloyd Carr that he's gonna stay at Michigan. And from then on, he really had to own his decision. He had been the

one to stay there. And so whining about whatever it was, whether it was, you know, getting on the field or Drew Henson later on, whatever it was, he couldn't do it. And he had to figure out ways again to kind of master his sense of self and control everything internally that he could possibly control to be successful there. And I think it's a mentality that he never really, those are some deep scars. And I don't think that he ever really kind of left that mindset, even though now, he's the most accomplished quarterback ever, maybe the greatest football player in modern history. The thing that struck me most about the book

and I have a bunch of other questions, but I'm, we might be able to do the next 30 minutes just on this, so that's why I want to talk about. But, so I, I love dynasties, I love teams to stay together, I love, you know, people that don't move teams. So I, when Brady leaves New England to go to Tampa, I think that it's sort of, you know, is it a, is it a quiet Leonard situation? You know, is it a, is it a, um, uh, Kevin Durant situation where you're sort of like, look, I get it from a business standpoint, but I,

I hope you lose, right? Like, I hope it doesn't work out, right? Because like part of what makes football great, is there does seem to work out, right? Because like, part of what makes football great is there does seem to be continuity. Players aren't like swapping teams all the way over here. So I was blown away and so I sort of obviously didn't want them to win, they do win, but I'm sort of so impressed by the fact that he pulls it off, that I'm begrudgingly respectful of it.

But then when I read your book, I saw a totally different lens on this. Like, okay, here's a guy. I've been with this team his whole career, deciding to leave. Is it about money? Is it about winning? Is it about, you know, ego? What is it about?

But my read, and maybe I'm making this up or projecting, but my read of your interpretation was ultimately Tom Brady loves football. maybe I'm making this up or projecting, but my read of your interpretation was, ultimately Tom Brady loves football, and he loves playing football, but he also loves his family, and his wife was basically like, we'll support you playing football as long as you want. But football, like following your dreams,

should not make you a miserable human being. You should enjoy being great at what you do. And if you can't, maybe you're not as great as you think you are. And so the decision to leave New England was less about where he could win, or any of the other factors, or control, or Aaron Rogers holding out because he wants control or whatever it was I Want to be able to play football in a way that doesn't bring out my worst qualities as a human being Mostly off the field and how can I do it in a sustainable way in a way that makes me happy while still also getting Elite performance out of myself.

Yeah, I think that in this goes along those lines and I think that it really, you know, did start at Michigan, but I think that football has always been about self-actualization for him. And I think it's one of the reasons why, you know, and I think it is for Belichet too, but in a different way, but I think that I didn't organize the book around Super Bowls. You know, that wasn't the culmination of each chapter or each moment. I wrote the book as characters who, you know, about Brady and Bill as characters who evolve over time on purpose. Because I think that the Super Bowls are almost like a weird accidental byproduct of a larger compulsion that has all kinds of factors that go

into it but with Brady, there's a reason why after the super bowl that they just want against the chiefs in February, his wife and his kids come running on to the field and the first thing she says is, what more do you have to prove? Because she's ready for Brady to retire. I mean, she left her own career to help raise their family and Brady, his compulsions to get better and to improve in microscopic ways or even in visible ways that the rest of us can't even notice, those have gotten worse over time. They have not gotten better. And he keeps saying, you know, I'm going to play to him 40 and then 45. And now who knows? And as soon as she asked him that, he figured out a way on the field right there to change the subject and not answer it.

Because he knew that while like the Super Bowl is like what they want out of each year, he knew that, you you know it was about something else like you know what more could he do after this and he knew it within seconds of winning the Super Bowl last year. I thought it was pretty phenomenal that and it was one of those moments that really revealed you know what he's chasing and that's something that even he struggles to articulate. He just wants to keep going and keep going. I've been a runner for a really long time as you know but one of the best changes and investments I made a couple years ago was the decision to get into cycling. You know bikes are not one size fits all and when you want the ultimate personalized

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at competitivecyclists.com slash daily stoke, promo code daily stoke, some exclusions apply. Well, and I've talked to different athletes over the years and they all seem to have some moment of this where either they get almost there and they lose or they get almost there and win. And they realize that chasing either the trophy or whatever is never,

it's never gonna make them feel the way that they want it, they want it to feel that they're living this sort of dream life, but depriving themselves of actually enjoying it while it happens because they're either so focused on the outcome or there's such like a pile of stress and nerves and expectations that it just sucks all of the fun out of it. Yeah, well then you have the Belichex system which, you know, is pretty emotionless to begin with. It's not that there's never fun, but it is not, I mean it broke Rob Grandkowski.

I mean, he retired from football not only because his body was hurting him because his his psyche was and You know it is it is fascinating to Look at people who are incredibly driven in a lot of ways. They are happiest when they're unhappy and There's a moment I write about in the book with Brady's second son, Benny. And he's not as into sports as Brady's oldest son is, but he's very competitive within himself. And he has a lot of high expectations for self. And he's, he expects a lot out of himself very similar to his old man. And there's one moment where Brady notices how hard his son is being on himself after something. And he tries to tell his son, like, bro,

this is not the road you want to go down. Because in a weird way, Brady knows that world better than he knows his son's future better than his own son does. All of those like sleepless nights, I mean, Brady used to not be able to sleep after a Super Bowl loss. As he got older, it became he couldn't sleep after he threw an interception, even if it was in a win of a game, like a regular season game. I mean, so do you think the lesson there is that that's actually not what's required to win, or is it that that's what's required to win, and once you win, you can be a bit more privileged and choosy about it? I think it's so, I think that it's this thing that people have and it gets worse over time

and it's spectacularly unhealthy. And Brady right then saw that his son had it and was basically like, you don't want to go down this road because it will mean a lot of sleepless nights and a lot of misery and beating the shit out of yourself mentally. And I thought it was just an interesting moment because, you know, as we know, our children end up being reflective of ourselves. And they pick up on things that we don't even realize

that we're putting out into the world. And that was a moment where they did it with him. And it was revealing of him in a way. And, you know, just the mental, it's like, there's this Bruce Springston quote, more than rich, more than happy, more, you know, more than famous, I wanted to be great. And I really think about that in respect to Brady and Belicechek a lot, because I think that inherent in there is an element of, of, of unhappiness that goes along with it. Yeah, I mean, do you have kids? I do, too. Would you want them?

Like, I think about this sometimes, it's like obviously to be great at what you do, it writing is a gift and it's a, to be able to not just have a calling, but then be in a position to answer said calling and then to have success at some calling. Like so many things have to go right for that to happen. I don't know, I don't know if I'd wish it on my kids.

Do you know what I mean? Exactly, exactly. No matter what it is though, but I think it's like how it manifests itself, it's not just with writing, it could be whatever field that it is. And I can definitely see, I mean, my wife is a high achiever herself.

And I definitely see some of those traits passed on and I kind of laugh at it because I'm like, oh my gosh, like, I don't know if I can do anything to change this now. Like, you know, when, one of the things I write about on the book is Brady's temper. And when he was a little kid, he would go golfing with his dad. And to throw a fit when he would miss a shot, he would go golfing with his dad and to throw fits when he would miss a shot. He'd throw clubs, he'd bang clubs into the ground. His dad, you know, who's competitive himself, but you know, isn't quite as bad as his son would, you know, say we're going home.

This isn't how we act, whatever it is. But it's like that instinct in those urges, I don't think have ever really gone away with Brady. I mean, you see them on the field sometimes. He obviously manages it better, but take like last year, they're playing the Bears and they end up in whatever it is, fourth and 27. He's so mad when they come to the sideline that he starts cussing at his offensive lineman.

And I have it in the book where I write about it. And you know, the image of him doing that went viral. It's hard to articulate, you know, again, the level of like rage in these urges that these guys have to manage. Yeah, it's part of what fuels you, but it's also fundamentally unhealthy. And, or maybe it's that you tell yourself

at what it's what fuels you. Like that, that's what to go back to the Jordan thing, which I found so interesting. You know, I wanted to dig into like this, like I got cut from the high school basketball team. And then my drive is what put me back. It's like, no, you, you didn't make the varsity team as a freshman or a sophomore. And then you grew six inches and then you did the team the next year. So like, you may well have told yourself that it was the drive and it was the work and the talent. But it was almost certainly much more to do with the fact that you're much taller now. You can pick up this kind of

script that, you know, it's the anger, it's the drive, it's the perfectionism that made you great. that it's the anger, it's the drive, it's the perfectionism that made you great. And that may actually be this sort of like parasite that's just attached to you, that drains you, but actually is totally incidental to whether you're good or bad at what you do. And I think to me, maybe the inspiring part of this idea of going to the, to the bucks

and then you sort of see him lightning up as an athlete and and exploring other things. You're like, oh, actually, maybe it was never those things the whole time and you can be great at what you do and not turn yourself into a machine. Yeah, but I mean, I do think that Brady has become a machine himself and I think that his Yeah, but I mean, I do think that Brady has become a machine himself and I think that his his version of growing six inches, you know, was when he decided to stay at Michigan like we mentioned. I mean poor Lloyd Carr. I mean Lloyd Carr is a phenomenally successful coach and everybody looks at him like the idiot who was looking for reasons to to sit Tom Brady and to play Drew Hanson. to sit Tom Brady and to play Drew Hanson. When, I don't think that's quite fair

because people assumed that Brady was always fully formed and he wasn't. And like, the real Tom Brady didn't quite exist yet because his version of growing those six inches was getting broken and rebuilding himself at Michigan and learning what it needed to take to grow up and to, you know, play every down and to succeed on every down and all of these things. And it was interesting because when Brady first went to

New England, he didn't even know where New England was, where the team was, but he sits in this first meeting as the six, you know, the six-round pick, maybe the fourth quarterback on the roster as it turned out that he would be. But at the time time he wasn't even guaranteed a roster spot and Bill Bellachek is hosting one of his first meetings after the draft and he says you know No one's job is it no one's entitled to their job You know everything's up for competition and Brady kind of sat back in that meeting and he's like well I can do this then I've competed my entire life and Already like people would be intimidated

by the NFL stage, and already he wasn't, I think, in part, because, you know, like I said, his version of growing six inches was kind of learning how to compete on that stage at Michigan. Yeah, I think one of the things that I took from the book is, is you sort of go into depth of just how brilliant and methodical and relentless the sort of BellicEx system is, you sort of go into depth, so just how brilliant and methodical and relentless the sort of Bellicic system is, but that maybe that it's not sustainable, it's sustainable as a system,

but it's not sustainable for the individuals inside of it. So everyone is sort of a cog-insed machine and sort of Tom Brady as the individual trying to actualize himself cannot ex, it's almost remarkable that he existed in it for 20 years. That's almost a feat of human, a superhuman strength, but that it's not sustainable for the individual, it's probably not even sustainable for Bellicech,

but that you just can't do it over the long term. So I think about that. It's like, how do I, you're in my profession, you can do forever, right? And so if you're aggrinding yourself down into dust, you're not going to, you're not going to last. You have to figure out a way not to beat the shit out of yourself. Yeah. And I think that, you know, one of the reasons why he was able to, you know, thrive

in it and survive in it as long as he was is because the, you know, unyielding demands that Belichick would put on everybody, Brady put that in more in himself. And, you know, I think that around 2008 or so, there was a little bit of a philosophical split because Brady had heard his knee and he was out in California and he was learning all these new training methods. Meanwhile, the Patriots moved on and Brady, that's where the genesis of the TB-12 method and some of those things really began to take hold. But even so, he was so driven in his own world, that it ended up matching up well

with whatever it is that Belichek was doing. And yeah, I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing that Belichek has been able to keep this up. It's one of the things that Robert Kraft marvels about is, you know, that Bill will often call Kraft, you know, on the way home from work at 11, 11, 30 midnight, to give him an update on what happened that day.

And craft missed him and he calls him first thing in the morning, 5, 45, 6 a.m. and Bill's already at his desk. And Bill, I mean, don't check this, he's been drinking coffee. He doesn't like the taste of it. He never has. It's just that he has this amazing energy. And again, that goes back to the thing that we were discussing before of like, the Super Bowl is not being the end game for these guys. I mean, it's not Ray Lewis and John L. Wei and Peyton Manning walking away on top. The Super Bowl is like this

byproduct of this other thing that, as it turns out, is incredibly, you know, sustaining and durable. And, you know, has these guys continuing to do this at this age when they could have you know gotten off the highway many times. Well it's not that it's almost like it's not that they don't think about winning. It's that they measure on a small like winning is too big of a horizon. They think more of like the meat like much smaller metrics. So it's like, yeah, it's like the interception is bothering him not the loss. Yeah, or you know, like it's a smaller thing. So the bellichek, it's like obsessing over or save it. It's like winning a national championship, but like getting excited and getting excited about a recruiting call he can make as he leaves the field. He's obsessed with the individual component parts

that indirectly lead to the outcomes and often favorable outcomes, but is actually less interested in that and more of the day-to-day grind of it. Yeah, I mean, these guys are obsessed with process. I mean, the process is essential to their lives. It's like almost their families. Maybe even more so if they admitted it, you know,

maybe with a drink or two into them. But like, go back to the Super Bowl that the Patriots lost against the Giants that cost them the undefeated season. You think about all the memorable plays in that game. And the one play that that night Brady could not stop thinking about wasn't the helmet catch, you know, one of the greatest plays in NFL history. It was the very first offensive play for the Patriots where they had a screen pass set up and it should have gone for a touchdown. And Brady was under pressure and he

fired low and missed the pass. And because of that, it was an incomplete pass. And the Patriots ended up scoring on that drive anyway. But he could not let that play go. The whole game would have been different had to be scored on that play. If they had just like knocked out the giants off the get-go and showed them they had no business being on that field, who knows what would have happened.

And that was like the play that he really couldn't let go of that night and maybe ever as it turns out. So the blessing and the curse of like, I only focus on what I control is that the blessing is it gets you through being a six round draft pick. It gets you through being second string at Michigan or that, you know, I'm going to focus on what I can do. The curse is that, yeah, you're obsessed about this minor variation on something that ultimately did go well because you see how it had you done your job better, it would have gone better.

Yeah, and it doesn't, it gets worse over time rather than waning You know my best friend is is a unbelievably talented and great writer named Wright Thompson Yeah, you know connect. Yeah exactly and He you know wrote one of his best stories was on Michael Jordan around the time that Michael Jordan turned 50 And it was just I love that story. It's incredible. It was incredible And it was also incredible because here Michael Jordan was at age 50 with every tangible thing you could have in life except the one thing that he wanted to do most, which was be able to play the game that brought him more joy than money and travel and fame and anything ever could.

And it was kind of a sad portrait of someone. And I remember when I read it, I had just interviewed Brady. I had spent a day at his house working on a story. And he had casually said that he was gonna play 10 more years, and at that time he was 36. And I almost missed it when he said that. I was like, I wonder if he's just saying that. Like, he can't really mean it.

And I didn't see a lot of parallels between himself and Jordan. And then you I didn't see a lot of parallels between himself and Jordan. And then you realize that there are a ton of parallels because he almost saw, I don't know if he read that story or not. I did. No, I don't know if he did, if he did. But that was a glimpse into his future. And whether he read that story or not,

he kind of intrinsically knew it. And he had just decided that he was gonna micro manage and do every possible thing He could to avoid that fate knowing that he's just one of those people who Like Bruce Springsteen or somebody needs to do this and there is no such real there's no real type of you know idea of Retirement he just has to keep doing it. Yeah, I remember reading, so everyone who, almost any normal person who watches

the Jordan Hall of Fame speech is sort of like, you know, like, it's like a, it's a discordant note in, you know, a song that you really like, you're just like, whoa, that's not who I want Jordan to be. And I remember reading something like Tiger Woods watched it and was like,

yep, that's what it takes. And so you're sort of watching to unhealthy people, you know, sort of confirm each other's unhealthiness. You know? Yeah. But to me, that's what's so interesting about the transition to Tampa and the continuing to win and play at the high level,

or at least what you talk about in the book, that there was at least, you know, that we're not talking about Tom Brady, post divorce, post public scandal, post whatever, having to reckon from rock bottom with trying to do it a different way. It struck me as inspiring and weirdly, again, a kind of a different kind of greatness to go,

yes, I'm still me, I still wanna be the best in the world. I still wanna do this, but before it's too late, I'm gonna take some sort of positive steps towards self-care, towards balance, towards integration, and that it didn't come at the expense of performance, it actually may have enhanced performance. I'm excited about that. Yeah, and when he was 26 or 27,

he was interviewed by 60 minutes. And at one point Steve Kroff asks him, you know, what scares you? What do you fear the most? And I don't even think this made the story in 60 minutes. I read it in the transcript. You know, at the moment, right then, he said the end of my playing career. He was 27 years old. I mean, he talked about knowing yourself,

who've talked about. I mean, he knew who he was at that time. And I think that one of the most interesting, the most interesting part of the book for me to write and to think about, and even to talk about is the middle of the dynasty when Brady and Bella check when almost 10 years without winning a championship.

Because it's astounding that not only that the team, their relationship, their working relationships survived it. But both of them did something that I think is really brave. And they went back and they essentially re-evaluated their entire belief systems, belief systems that had worked better, probably than any in modern NFL history, because they realized that they were coming up just short. And what do they do when they're better than 99.8% of people who do this, and they need to make it 99.9?

You know, you think about that Super Bowl, the second one they lost to the Giants, when Brady had Westwelker open and missed him in the fourth quarter. And even though Welker got kind of hampered for not catching the pass, it was a bad throw. And Brady had to think about how do I become two inches more accurate in the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl as I'm aging, as all of these factors are coming into play.

And that's really where a lot of these, he retooled his entire throwing motion. He throws the ball differently now these factors are coming into play. And that's really where, you know, a lot of these, he re-tooled his entire throwing motion. He throws the ball differently now than he did when he was 24, 25, 26 years old. And, you know, I think that that part of it was really interesting to me because you saw their striving in a level that's almost inconceivable. They were in a cultural and professional thin air and yet they had plateaued and they had to figure out a way to get over, it's not over the hump. It's over that last little couple inches of difference

that was the difference between them winning super bowls and losing them. Yeah, it's like, I don't know. It's almost easier to be great and fundamentally unbalanced than it is to be great and one sustain it, but to have other things in your life. Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

And nobody has ever accused Tom Brady and Bill Belichack of being well-rounded people. I mean, Brady has talked often about the strain that his drive and his profession and his internal competitiveness and expectations have had on his marriage. But it's still there. I mean, that is impressive, right? Like, you know, you look at it. Well, it's impressive it's still there. I mean that that is impressive, right? Like, you know, you know, you look at somebody recognized it. But also that it that it didn't that he was, you know, like I think especially you can imagine especially that far into your career

You're that successful. You're Tom Brady. You could go You can you could make the wrong choice right your wife Maybe talk about the letter that Jacelle wrote and that you talk about in the book But you're you're verdict or your response to that letter, and I think it probably is for some of the champions we've talked about is like, you knew who I was when you married me. I'm not changing. Yeah, and I mean, I think that he's tried to change in ways, but you know, both Bellagic and Brady are very stubborn people. And I don't, this is pure speculation on my part,

but I do wonder if there's a reason why Bill Bellicic never got remarried. I mean, clearly he's wearing a ring now as of this year. And so maybe something had changed and he and his longtime girlfriend are committed to each other, but always maybe wonder whether, when he got divorced in 2005 to 2006 whenever it was he started dating his his you know current life partner you know pretty shortly after

that and yet they were never remarried and I was wondered if it was because Bill knew himself so well to know that while he was trying to achieve what the things that he was trying to achieve, he could not, you know, commit so much of his life to someone else. Obviously, like, maybe he's come to a point where, you know, that's different for him, and, you know, he feels like he can do it. Again, this is all complete speculation on my part. I have no reporting or insight into this and I could be totally wrong.

But it is something I've always been curious about because with Brady on the other hand, he didn't even, you know, for the longest time, he didn't want to have children young. Like he had, he had, like looked at quarterbacks who were in their 30s and he thought that, like, they had started to slide as players, not only because their bodies were breaking down, but because their attention was diverted.

And they weren't as resolutely focused on football, like they were before because they had families. And he was always like, you know, that's not going to be me. And yet then he had, he had his son at age, whatever he was, age 29 or 30. He marries Jacelle Bunch and then they have two more children. And he has to figure out a way to balance that. And the balancing, as we all know, is difficult, if not impossible. And yeah, there was a moment where it was in 2017 where Jacelle Bunch and wrote him a letter because she was

dissatisfied with the state of their marriage. Because I mean, you know, he's someone who seasons would end, the football season would end. And then, you know, he was immediately trying to explore new ways to train and new things he could change and evolve and new business opportunities for TV 12. And, you know, there really wasn't an off season and, you know, clearly that was something that needed to change and did. Can you hear me? Yeah, it was weird. It was weird, but it's all recording natively, so it should be fine. Okay.

Yeah, I think to me, that's the journey that that's the ultimate journey, right? Is like, how do you, how do you, not just sustain greatness in the physical level as a, as I think he's, he's done, and, you know, trying to preserve the body, trying to, to sort of defy aging, how do you sort of stay hungry and want to do what you do and stay sharp? That's a sort of mental side. But then there's also this kind of sort of stay hungry and want to do what you do and stay sharp as the sort of mental side. But then there's also this kind of sort of spiritual element of it, which is like how does it not make you worse? How does it not destroy or infect all other parts of your life?

And how do you create, like, it's like, you know, what good is two other rings if you're sort of lonely and miserable, you know? And I think to me that was that that that seemed to maybe be the trade-off, although it actually ended up with an extra ring and perhaps one more or two more depends on how long he can play. But just the idea of like, I'm going to try my my challenges, how do I be great at what I do? my challenges, how do I be great at what I do and be as close to a functioning human being when I'm not on the field as possible. And I just, I think about that as a writer. It's like, you want to be great at it. You want to write as many books you can. You want them to sell as well

as you can. But you don't want to fucking end up as Hemingway, you know? That's not winning. that's not winning. Yeah, and Brady, you know, they once lost a playoff game in New England, and, you know, his kids are up, and they're young, they don't care at all, about the pain that he is suffering, that they're focused on their worlds, as they should be. And he needed to be their audience, and he talked to me about how hard that was.

You know, he said it was impossible actually to try to, you know, be as present for his kids as he should have been at that moment, but he was trying. And, you know, as you know as a parent, I mean, you're not perfect all the time. The trying is what matters. And I think that that's really interesting

because again, it goes back to what we said at the beginning of the conversation, is that like, you know, nobody, I think in modern football history has been able to focus on what's in front of them and what they can control like Brady and Balochack. And that goes for, you know, family moments and football. I mean, but football especially, these guys are very different personalities, but they are both optimists in a way that I think that even like it's even within the world of sports is easy to take for granted. They have never not once conceded to anybody else's idea of the inevitable. You know, you think about Brady and, you know, what it took to come back from double digit fourth quarter deficits, twice in super rules. You think about Brady and what it took to come back from double digit fourth quarter deficits twice in Super Bowls. You think about Bill Balla checking all of the great goal line stands that his defense has had engineered over the years. Going back to 1986 when he was with the Giants and they played the Broncos in the Super Bowl and had a goal line stand. Like, these two guys are able to forget about what happened

in the past and focus on what's in front of them in a really special and unique way. Even if it turns out, especially after a playoff loss or something like that, it's not as clean as maybe we would of liked. There's a moment in the book where Brady loses a game to Washington and he had a chance to rally the team in the fourth quarter on one of his famous drives

and came up short, didn't get it done. And his dad just keeps calling him and calling him and calling him. And Brady will not pick up the phone, which is very rare, especially when his dad calls. Finally, his dad leaves a voice mail and you know, there aren't any bridges in Boston high enough to jump off. And Brady calls him back within a minute

and he says, you know exactly how I feel. Right. It's a, man, it's a great book, a great story. I loved it and I'm so glad you sent it to me and it's been awesome to talk. Yeah, thank you so, so much. I really appreciate your help. I appreciate your reading and I appreciate your work. I mean, it helped inform a lot. It helped inform a lot with this book and you know, obviously your work has been, you know, digested and considered and practiced by the Patriots over the years and we didn't even get into that.

We'll save that for the next one. No, we did. That was a weird random fluke of, certainly not what you expect when you write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy, but it's open at some cool doors. I bet. Thank you very, very much.

Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate it. And everyone should read this and we'll talk soon. Thank you so much, Ryan. I really much. Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate it, and everyone should read this, and we'll talk soon. Thank you so much, Ryan. I really appreciate your help, man. Thank you. My new book, Courage is Calling,

is now officially a New York Times bestseller. Thank you so much to everyone who supported the book. It was literally and figuratively overwhelming. We signed almost 10,000 copies of the book, which just, you know, it hit me right here. And I appreciate it so much. If you haven't picked up a copy or you wanna pick up a signed copy as a gift,

please do, you can get your copy at dailystowick.com. Slash, courage is calling, or you can just go to store.dailystoic.com. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.