The Daily Stoic - James Frey on Turning Chaos Into Success

Episode Date: January 30, 2021

Ryan Speaks to writer and businessman James Frey about the challenges of being isolated during the pandemic, the philosophy behind his sobriety, the painful discovery of human flaws in your heroes, and more.James Frey is the author of several bestselling books including A Million Little Pieces, My Friend Leonard, and his most recent, Katerina. He is also the founder and CEO of the transmedia production company, Full Fathom Five. This episode is brought to you by Ladder, a painless way to get the life insurance coverage you need for those you care about most. Ladder makes the process of getting life insurance quick and easy. To apply, you only need a phone or laptop and a few minutes of time. Ladder’s algorithms work quickly and you’ll find out almost immediately if you’re approved. Go to ladderlife.com/stoic to see if you’re instantly approved today.This episode is also brought to you by LMNT, the maker of electrolyte drink mixes that help you stay active at home, work, the gym, or anywhere else. Right now you can receive a free LMNT Sample Pack for only $5 for shipping. To claim this exclusive deal you must go to drinkLMNT.com/dailystoic. This deal is only valid for the month of January. If you don’t love it, they will refund your $5 no questions asked.This episode is also brought to you by FitTrack, the best way to calculate your body’s composition accurately, reliably, and consistently. Every FitTrack smart scale uses advanced algorithms to offer insights into 17 different metrics indicative of bodily health. The Dara Smart Scale syncs with the free FitTrack App so all of your health insights are saved in one place. Go to getfittrack.com/stoic to take 50% off your order, and for a limited time you’ll also save an additional 10%. This episode is also brought to you by Talkspace, the online and mobile therapy company. Talkspace lets you send and receive unlimited messages with your dedicated therapist on their platform 24/7. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to Talkspace.com or download the app. Use the code STOIC to get $100 off of your first month and show your support for the show.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow James Frey:Homepage: bigjimindustries.comInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamesfrey_/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bigjimindustriesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We reflect. We prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school. And we have the time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with our journals, and to prepare

for what the future will bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stove Podcast. And remember it?

Pretty vividly, I was in South Paulo, Brazil. This is right as Gokker was being, if you read my book, and spares me some of this, I'll be familiar. This is right as Gokker was getting sued into oblivion and losing its famous lawsuit against Holkogen.

And I got this email. I just written a piece about it. I just hit Publish from, you know, basically the hotel dining room, as I was getting ready to leave to the airport and catch my flight. It's always stressful flying out of Sao Paulo because it takes like four hours to get to the airport

and traffic is crazy. But I got this email out of the blue from the author James Frye, which obviously I'd grown up you sort of having heard about it, knowing, but was just sort of much more aware of the sort of controversy surrounding him. And it was a surprise email and he just said, hey, I love this article. You know, he sort of gave me some backstory of his relationship with Gawker.

And we got connected and we've sort of become friends. And it turned out he's a huge fan of the Stoics and he actually credits the Dow Dijing and Stoicism with with his almost 30 or journey now with sobriety Fry is you know, he's a fascinating guy. We text everyone some while we talk I actually love his novel bright shiny Shining Morning, the Most. It's this great book about LA. I've raved about John Fonte's Ask the Desk before. And so hopefully this comes off as high praise. I think this is maybe the second or the third best novel about Los Angeles, which is a very

high bar to get over. So check that out if you haven't read Bright Shining Morning, you should. But I really liked his newest book, Catarina, which I think is just a fascinating sort of novel about life and death, but also about the desire, the urge to be great, to do something great, to be the best at something. And it's, you know, it's a fictionalized sort of take on, you can see the seeds of why James got in the place that he got. Anyways, I think he's a great writer, a fascinating guy. I don't look at a shy away

from having controversial guests on the show. This is my podcast and why wouldn't I talk to him? And I'm glad I did. I think this is a great interview. I think you're really gonna like it. Check out Bright Shiny Morning and Katarina. I don't think you can go wrong with either those books. And here's my interview with James Fry.

So how you been? How you holding up? I've been a long year man. Been a long year. All things considered I'm so old now. It's been a long year, man. It's been a long year. All things considered I'm fine. I had COVID very early. And now I just sort of sit at home and read and write and try to get through the days. Do you know how you got it?

I got it. Yeah, I do. I got it from a colleague of mine who I got it in France from a colleague of mine at the very beginning of March. And I was sick for, I had pneumonia and I was sick for about nine days. And I was probably at half strength for, and those nine days were not fun, like really bad flu and pneumonia

is what it felt like to me and diarrhea, which sucked. And then I was probably at half strength for like two weeks. And then the only weird thing is ever since then, I have to take ZorTech, allergy medicine every morning or my nose runs. Weird. Yeah. I had a positive antibody test in May and a negative one in September. But you probably still have the antibodies, right?

Or you're still not immune, but they say that just because you have a negative antibody test doesn't mean you're going to get it again. Yeah, I don't know. I sure spoke hope I don't get it again. It was not fun. Did you have to quarantine from your family and stuff? Or did they get it too? So when I first came back from France and I was sick and I travel enough that I get sick in the winter fairly often. But then I got really sick and I was having trouble breathing normally and I went to the doctor and it was the first week of March. There wasn't really testing even. And the doctor was like, do you have a guest room? And I said, yeah, and he was like, go to your guest room

and don't come out. Have your family leave the meals and medicine at outside the door. And that's what I did. Oh. 10 days probably. And I slept a lot and coughed a lot and was miserable a lot. The sick thing is weird. I mean, one of the weirdest parts of the last 10 months is remembering what life is like when you don't get a cold or the flu or food poisoning, at least several times a year.

It's wonderful. It's like, oh, this is what life is supposed to be like when you don't spend way too much time on airplanes or in hotel rooms or at train stations. Yeah, that part of COVID has kind of been nice. Like recently I've been using my phone a whole lot less and using the only thing I really use tech for is work.

And it's honestly been nice. You sort of remember what life must have been like when people live simpler lives. I feel like my willpower is sapping. Like at the beginning of the pandemic, I read a ton and I was not using the phone a lot. I do feel like as we sort of, as we went into the election, as we,

and then came into whatever the last weird purgatory the last month or so has been, and then now going into the winter. I am finding like, okay, going into the New Year, I'm going to need to reset some of my habits. I'm going to need to, I can feel the slippery slope of like sort of device dependency rearing its head. Can you? Yeah, absolutely. I despise device dependency, though. I am device dependent. It's weird. I read on an iPad now, and I tried to go back to normal books, and it's really hard. I've been reading on an iPad for probably seven or eight years. And I was trying to readjust some of my habits

to go off the devices, but it's just easy. I have an iPad with basically every book that ever existed at my disposal instantly. Right. And I don't have to keep a light on to read. I fall asleep most nights reading on an iPad, like literally just fall asleep the same way I used to with the book, except there's no light.

I don't like device dependency. I know the more I use my device, the less happy I am. And I know the more I use my device, especially with social media, the less I like myself and the less I feel just good about life in general, the less productive I am. And I think we all know that. But yeah, of course, we all know. I mean, I've never once gone on Twitter in my life.

And then after I closed it, it was like, I'm know. I mean, I've never once gone on Twitter in my life. And then after I closed it was like, I'm so glad I did that. Like I've never felt better about myself or my life or really even feel like I got anything out of it. So I went off Twitter about four months after Trump was elected, just because it was too toxic. I couldn't have it in my life.

And as long as I had an account, I knew I was gonna use it, so I just deleted it. And I still have a public Facebook page, but I can't say I really ever use it. I don't know the last time. I used it. And then I have an Instagram. And an Instagram seems the friendly

install of all of them. Yeah. But I still, I try to not use it. You know, the hardest part about the pandemic for us right now is just the weather, right? Like the East Coast, it's cold. We've got a foot of snow outside. And a lot of those sort of reset strategies

that you were just talking about, which I try to, I'm resetting things in my life constantly, right? Like as soon as I sort of aware of a habit or an old habit that's come back, I try to, I try to cut it. But the hardest part about all of that on the East Coast right now, it's just the ability to get outside. You know, and this summer during pandemic, I could at least go outside all day.

Now it's a lot harder. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, we've had this cold snap here in Austin and you go, oh, wow. Okay. Like in a way, it sort of gives you, because you're not going from beautifully lit, exciting, indoor space to indoor space, it sort of does give you a sense of how dependent you are, or vulnerable you are to your environment or what's happening in the world, like because it's like, suddenly, you can't distract yourself.

Suddenly you can't go do this or that. And so you're just forced to like sit and stew in your own juices and you find often, how unpleasant that is. Yeah, it sucks. You start spinning in your mind, whatever shit is irritating you or bothering you. That's worse.

You know, I've stopped reading most of the news, I've stopped using social as much as possible. All for the same reason, right? It's all bad. It's all bad for my soul. It all, it's all depressing. I don't, I don't, I don't give a shit about whatever the latest horse shit, some politician is saying because I know ultimately it probably won't have a real

effect on my life. There's yelling at each other. And the less yelling I hear, the better. How do you, it speak of dependency? I can only imagine sort of getting through something like the pandemic and the stress and that must be very challenging for somebody's sobriety. Yeah, but also in an interesting way for my own sob buy it, it's actually been really great. I've been sober for almost 28 years. I went to rehab for crack and alcohol. And it's almost like the extremity of what we're involved in has forced people to deal with their sobriety

in a more active way. I was never in my whole sober life an AA person. I was actually, you know, I've written against it. Not for other people. I think sobriety is a thing that's a lot like religion that you have to find your own way and whatever way you find as long as you're not hurting another person, it's cool. And I've never used AA in my life for sobriety. I always use the Dow or I used walking meditation or I would just go sit and church is by myself just because I like the quiet and the nobility of it.

But I joined an AA meeting in May and it's the first sort of regular AA group I've ever been in in my life in 28 years of sobriety. And I do it every Friday with a group of about 12 to 15 men and it's actually been great. It's made my sobriety. And I do it every Friday with a group of about 12 to 15 men. And it's actually been great. It's made my sobriety a lot stronger. It's made my life a lot better. And it's not something I would have ever done if the pandemic didn't exist. But it was almost like being cooped up and being restricted and the stress and anxiety that comes with that and everything else, the election, the possibility of death, economic collapse,

you know, I work in publishing and and entertainment and either one of those are doing real well right now and sort of the stress of that and I'm married and I have three kids and and the stress of that forced me to find something to help with my sobriety and I have three kids and and the stress of that forced me to find something to help with my sobriety and I found this meeting and and it's been great for me. How does it help? Is it the community? Is it the like the ritual of the process that you're supposed to do? Like what is it that you're supposed to do, like, what is it that you find so beneficial about it? I think both those first two things you mentioned, right? Like the community for sure, it's, I know a lot of the people outside of AA, so it's probably half the group, was friends of mine before the pandemic. We're all either artists, art dealers or writers. So we sort of think about and have similar lives.

And part of it is the ritual, just like I know, you know, the meeting I do is on Friday afternoons, I know that at least on Friday afternoon for that hour to hour and 15 minutes, I will find peace in my heart, and I will find like minded people who are struggling with the same things. And it helps. It helps the way our meeting runs is a Person tells their story For the first 15 minutes of the meeting and then everybody gets three minutes to to share how they felt about the speaker or or What's going on in their own lives and then you move on and and

Listening to other people and And being there for them helps you, you know, service helps you, but also being able to just express whatever's going on with me helps me, right? Like some weeks I just say, hey, great week, love your story, thanks for coming, love all you guys, other weeks I have real stuff to talk about, but the ritual, the community, the idea that I'm not actually alone in my house struggling with sobriety or struggling with whatever it is.

I'm struggling with, right? I think people are forgetting that we're kind of in this together, right? I think isolation has forced us to forget that. The politics of the country right now have forced us to forget that. And it's not like I'm perfect with it, but Bay helped. It breaks that isolation for sure. Yeah, it's like it's it's really easy. I think to get caught in your own head or in the case of some other people to get your head sort of so far up your own ass. That you're you've lost sight of the fact that one probably in comparison you have it pretty good.

But second, you're not at all alone in what you are going through. And that when you, I feel like it's like when you talk to other people about their problems, it sort of activates this part of your brain. It's like, oh, here are the solutions, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you also feel the sort of kindness and love towards them. And then, and then maybe you're able to step back and go, I could also do that for myself. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's part of the benefit of group therapy,

whether it's AA or some other sort of therapeutic philosophy. I know on Fridays, however bad my week has been that my friends will be there and I'll be able to talk to them. And I'll also be able to listen to them and help them with whatever they need help with. You know, service is a big thing that I very much believe in, just helping other people, just being a decent human. And I always benefit from it as much as anybody I've helped.

And that's sort of the beauty of it. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Is this thing on? Check one, two, one, two. There y'all. I'm Kiki Palmer.

I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo, just the name of you. Now I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Keep a Bag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a Bag Love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started, and there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby Mrs. Kiki Palmer podcast.

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whatever you get your podcast. Hey, Brian members, you can listen early and add free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today. When you think about being a service like, because that's something I've sort of been thinking about in my own life a bit more. And I think sometimes as a writer, it's really easy to fool yourself and be like, what I do is my service, you know? And that's also a very narcissistic,

egotistical thing. When you think about like someone who's trying to get started with that, like, where do you, like, what do you suggest? Like, how can someone, because that is a big 10 in an AA, the idea of being of service, but like, what does that mean? How do you do it?

I mean, doing anything for another human being without selfish motivation is service, right? How do I do it? I mean, I still probably get, you know, 10 to 15 direct messages or emails a day. But yeah, probably about 10 from people who are so, who are struggling with sobriety. I reply to all of them. I, I, I, I have had now almost 20 year relationships, almost entirely online with people who are trying to get sober or who are sober, who I've just met online. I want to quit drinking, what do I do? And I start a conversation with them. I do things like that. I give away a lot of money.

Probably 10 to 15% of my income every year, I give away. I just try to be kind and try to be decent. If you see somebody struggling and you offer to help, that's being a service. Whatever that help is and whatever that struggle is, if it's an old lady who needs help getting across the street, cool. If it's a

woman at a grocery store who's struggling with a bunch of bags and kids offer to help. If it's somebody pulled over on the side of the road and they look like that they're not okay, pull over and offer to help. All of those things are being observed, which is just doing things to try to make the world better

without any expectation of getting anything out of it except positive feelings. Yeah, Marcus really talks about, he's like, you do it and you don't ask for the third thing. So it's like, you did a thing for the person that made you feel good. They did, you know, they got the benefit that made them feel good. The third thing is the sort of recognition, the favorite being returned, you know, the credit or whatever. And, and that seems that it's like I think in sort of in the social media era, that's like hard, like we sort of want credit for everything, but it's like just being a decent

person to the people you encounter in your life, because that's how one ought to go through the world is a very underrated strategy these days. I mean, it's the best strategy, man. If you want that third thing, it's not really being of service, and it's not really charity, right? Sure. If you want that third thing, your motivation is not just to do something good for the sake of doing something good.

It's you want something. It's vastly more transactional, right? And I can't say I ever expect anything back from anybody. And I don't need anything back. I don't, I don't help or be of service to anyone ever for anything back. You just do it to make the world better because if the world's better, it's better for all of us. Yes, it's tricky. It's sort of corny and naive, is that my sound? No, it's, it's, it's, right. It's that idea,

like, just be the change, you know, that you want to see in the world. Yeah, I mean, I almost not even that like because it's not like I have some big grand plan, right? It's not like I'm thinking, well, if I, if I do this thing 20 times, I'll change the world. It's just if somebody needs help, fucking help them. If you can make somebody's life better with a simple gesture, or even not so simple a gesture, just do it, right? No, no, I totally agree. I just mean it's like, it's like,

sort of everyone wants everyone to be nicer. They want, you know, it's like, it wouldn't be wonderful if things were less polarized if people were nicer to each other. We sort of talk in these sort of vague generalities about how we want to be in the world. And then, and then it's like we sort of expect other people to start it, or it's like we sort of

expect it to just happen. And then what we do is we go through life, it feels like sort of blind to the actual, like there's a great, there's a great, what is the line? I was just thinking of a quote that I was gonna tell you, but anyways, it's sort of, oh, it's maybe it's George Elliott, like we lionize all forms of courage and bravery

except that which we might sort of offer to our nearest neighbor. So it's like we sort of expect these things to happen at this sort of grand political level. Like, I'm always surprised, like, you hear these people talk like, what are these guys in Washington? They're all, you know, whatever. And then it's like, yeah, but you have like one tenth of the power at one tenth of the stakes. And you're a pussy too. So how can you expect, you know what I'm saying like it's like just Just do it in your life and take care of that and let's see if that can't create kind of a ripple going outwards

Yeah, I agree with that and frankly, I'm not perfect at it either right like when you were talking about your neighbor like In the last year, I've had problems with some of my neighbors And if anything that's part of what aside from the pandemic this year just the politics of the United States has been really stressful and awful and divisive and whatever side you're on it couldn't have been fun. If you're a Trump person you've just lost and it's over. If you're a Biden person you've been terrified for probably at least a year and we've all been taught to hate each other. And frankly, myself included, like, it's funny, but I agree.

I sort of agree. Well, I think what you were saying before is like, if you just practice the little things, right? Yeah. Maybe that's enough. It's tough though. The last year has been tough, I feel like, because it's like, you know,

you sort of do work on yourself. It's so easy to be jaded and cynical, right? And then so you do work on yourself and you're like, Hey, like people are good. People are trying their best. You know, people are just like me, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then, and then, you know,

it's like, look, loving my neighbor as myself would be easy. If your neighbor did a half decent job trying to show that they were not like a piece of shit, right? And so, like, I think one of the struggles that, and this is where the philosophy really comes in, is is I give an example it's like I walk by There's a there's a house on my street. I live out in the country. There's a house on my street These are like really nice people But but I go for this walk in the morning and I see two things that just like it make it very hard So one instead of paying and these are not you know not well off people instead of paying, and these are not, you know, not well off people, instead of paying, you know, the $40 a month to have their trash taken out, they just keep, they just have their own trash dump on the back of their property. They just like throw their trash into giant hole, right? And I walk by this, like I see it off in the distance. You know, like, these are good people who are just literally littering, just throwing their garbage in a giant hole in the ground to save, you know, $40.

And then I walk past this cow that they have and this cow had sort of a deformed horn that's starting to grow into its own head, right? Which happens on a cow, you have to, if to cut the horn off, or you have to put the cow down, or whatever. But it's like, you know, love the neighbor as they self, be kind, you know, be connected, as soon as the best in people, and then it's like, you're walking past someone, you know, filling the earth with trash, and then, you know, out of negligence, abuse, and animal. It's hard to maintain, like. That's where the work is. It's easy to be cynical and jaded,

but then it's actually hard work to be the opposite of those things because people really make you look for the good. Yeah, it is hard work. Like, and yours isn't even that complicated, honestly. The most complicated things for me in the last year are people who I used to respect or like. And when I learned certain things that they believe in, I can't like them or respect them anymore. And there's a certain level of almost self-hate that comes with that too, right?

Like, why aren't I good enough human to just let it go? Why aren't I a good enough person to accept them even though they believe in things that repulse me? You know, like, I've spent a lot of time in the last year contemplating what I would have done if I lived in Germany in 1938, right? What I've left, what I have stayed, what I have, I don't know, you know? But I don't think we were that far from that. That's not saying Republicans are not these because I don't believe that. But I think Trump specifically was moving towards an authoritarian dictatorship. I'm happy that the citizens of the United States and the courts have stopped that. Yeah, I think it's, it's like,

you can almost put Trump aside, and you can put the vast majority of his supporters aside, but you sort of come to this inescapable conclusion that we're not all on the same page and that there's a not unsizable group of people who would be okay with things getting much, much worse and going in a much, much darker direction. And I think if you have a sense of history, it makes it like, you realize like, oh yeah,

it's not as if these movements in the past had majority support. In fact, that's always the tricky part of them is how that sort of strident minority manages to sort of seize power and then manipulate or cajole or bully the more like I had Paul Kicks, the the SBN writer on a couple months ago. And we were, it's like, and your book, Caterina is about France. It's like, you ask people,

what percentage of France do you think was involved in the resistance? And you know, people think it's like 30 or 40 or 50 percent. Yeah, it was like 4 percent. And you're like, oh. So I read a thing about the Bolshevik revolution. And it was an article about, it was probably nine months ago. And it was a theorist on revolution, but the person had done an enormous amount of historical research, and this person estimates that you need somewhere

between 12 and 15% of a country's population to flip it, right? If you have 12 to 15% of a country's population that are absolute fanatics, you can flip that country. And the example was the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. And the Bolsheviks had about 14% of the population, and they took over the fucking country, and booted the monarchy and built the Soviet Union and regardless of how you feel about all that, whether communism is good or bad, or monarchies are good or bad,

the idea that you need 12 to 15% of a country's population to radically alter its history is a little bit frightening. I don't think that's very fragile. Yeah, they're vastly more fragile than you think, you know. And I think that's where this brings in, Cerro Stokes, have this virtue of courage. And I think obviously there's the courage of the battlefield, there's the courage of a fireman running into a building, there's the courage of a mother trying to lift a car off her baby. There's all the, but just the courage to sort of go, I don't like where this is going. I don't agree with these tactics, even if I largely agree with the group, right?

Like whether you're talking about Republicans or Democrats, to be able to sort of look your own side in the face and say, guys, this is going in a bad direction, not in my name. Like I think Sojjanitschen has that line. He says, like, the mark of bravery is to go let evil come into the world, but not through me, right? Like to say, like, I'm not going to be complicit. I'm not going to be a part of that. That seems so basic. And it seems,

I think everyone tells themselves that when it really gets bad, then you'll step up. And I think that's what's been interesting about watching, watching what's happened in America now. But since that's so hard for people to see, I think the French resistance example is a good one. It's like, since that's so hard for people to see. I think the French resistance example is a good one. It's like, your country is literally taken over by the Nazis, like literally overrun by the Nazis. And 95% of the population says, well, I guess that's the way that it is now.

And that, if that doesn't wake you up and make you realize the importance of Saying something when you think something. I'm not sure what will Yeah, I frankly have been amazed people haven't been more disturbed by the activities of the last month Right like saying trying to flip an election that was That was lawfully won. Thankfully, enough people have been willing to do that. Yeah, I think there's a lot of courage not in the grand gestures, the grand extreme situations we hear about in war accidents, but like people who are working in

hospitals right now, they're the most courageous people in the country, right? They have been for the last year. I'm not putting myself in harm's way every day, I just sit at home. But there, you know, as there has been a lot of horror in the past year, there's been a lot of beauty and there's been a lot of greatness and there's been enormous amounts of courage. And that's kind of how it always is, man. I mean, people will say it'll always be okay. The world kind of generally is find its way. And

well, that kind of goes to what you were saying earlier to walk me through how the Dowaging is connected with sobriety for you. It's not something I've heard other people say before, but it's fascinating. So I went to rehab when I was 23 and I was in bad shape and I had been an addict and an activatic since I was probably 16 and I went there and I was a pretty hardcore atheist. I didn't believe in God and AA is predicated on a belief of God. The dogma requires a belief in a higher power. And I didn't believe in one. And my brother came to visit me. I was in rural Minnesota at the Hazelman

Foundation. And he brought a bunch of books for me because I was and I've always been a big reader. I was, I was and have always been a big reader and the situation that led me to rehab. I didn't have books. So he brought a bunch and one of them was the Stephen Mitchell translation of the Dow Day Jing. And I remember I was a little skeptical of it. I was like, what's this corny self-help or shit? He was like, just give it a read, man. You might dig it.

And I read it and I couldn't quite believe it existed. You know, the, the, the Dow translated, depending on how you wanna translate it, means the Dowdaging either means the way, or the art of the way. And it's a really simple, beautiful guide for living that, that teaches a lot of things, but the core tenants of it are we as human beings should think about patience, compassion,

and simplicity as guiding principles of our life, patience with ourselves and others, compassion with ourselves and others, and simple and our thoughts and actions. And the book just spoke to me, and it made sense to me in a way that nothing ever had before, no religion, no philosophy, no guide to life. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to the show.

Stay tuned. But I think it's weird about it, is like so much of it feels really opaque and confusing to me, and I have no idea what they're talking about. And then you'll get to a passage or whatever, and it almost feels like the clouds part, and you're like, oh, I get this one, that nails it.

You know what I mean? So there's this sort of mysticness. It's like, if I've ever read Heraclitus, there's some of that too, where there's this sort of mystic kind of poetic beauty that may or may not be nonsensical, or it may just be that whatever wisdom it's expressing, you are not at a place that you can unlock yet. And if you come back to the book at a later time or at a totally different moment,

it actually will make sense. Yeah, I mean, it's almost too simple, right? Like it's an unbelievably simple book. It's 81 poems that are between four and 20 lines long. The way I often try to explain it to people is, you know, the force and star wars is based on the Dow, right? Lucas is very open about it. And Jedi's are essentially Dalas, ancient, Dalas monks. But it's just the idea that there is something that life is a force, a universal

life force that we call the Dal. And it is simple and compassionate and patient. And the more we can sort of align ourselves with it, the better our lives will be, the more peaceful they'll be, and the more productive they'll be. I know as I have read a lot of stoicism over the past, probably eight years, and we've talked about this before, I absolutely believe that one of the early stoics had to have had a copy of the doubt, because the philosophies are remarkably similar in a lot of ways. It's almost like it's two Christian denominations of the same thing. One of them, let's say, Taoism is like being a Baptist and being a stoic is like being a, you know, a prod a, a, something

else, a Presbyterian or whatever, but they teach a lot of the same things. With the Dow, it largely depends on the translation for me. There are, there are so many translations. And the Steven Mitchell one is the simplest and the most sort of adapted to Westerners. He was a very early American Zen monk who started translating things. And it's just a beautiful book. It's just an incredibly simple way to think about and try to live your life. And I know whenever I have trouble, whenever I have problems,

whenever I feel lost, I go back to it, and it helps me find my way back. And to a certain extent, the stoics do the same thing. I mean, I read the daily stoic, you know that. And I believe in stoicism, it's been an aid to me too, as the doubt you can read in an hour, I've probably read that book 2,000 times in my life. And you almost read it so much that you forget it, right? You do take a lot of it in and just sort of subconsciously start to live that way, but you also forget it and and

and stoicism is a slightly different take on it and and it's one that has helped me a lot too. Well, it's funny because you know the logos in stoicism also which is also the sort of the logos and Christianity which is also the logos and Christianity just means the way. And so this idea, they're kind of being this like energy in the universe, some sort of like the Stokes talk about living according to nature, they talk about it, the smooth flow of life. There is this sort of similarity between the two,

they're about sort of tapping into this jet stream where this flow zen state. It does really make it seem like they were drinking from the same pool. I mean, like I just pulled up a thing that Kato the younger said, right? I'll begin to speak only when I'm certain what I'll say isn saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm saying that I'm Don't right? It says those who those who speak no and those who are those who don't speak no and those who speak don't know meaning that The more you talk about all that you know and it's odd that we're on a podcast talking about all that we know but of course and

You know that you don't really have to talk that most of our words are wasted and it's two guys essentially saying the same thing and there's a ton of most of our words are wasted and it's two guys essentially saying the same thing and there's a ton of of stoic philosophical sayings that are very remarkably similar and I think probably these I guess you could call them elite academics. Marcus Aurelius was certainly a as a lead to member of his society as any that has ever existed. But I think they probably had access to some of these other materials that that sort of wound their way around the world. I think there probably was was a connection between Stoics and Taoists. I mean, and maybe this is actually a pretty philosophical idea from both of them too, which is like, you know, it's sort of the same thing happening over and over again. I mean, and maybe this is actually a pretty philosophical idea from both of them too, which is like, you know, it's sort of the same thing happening over and over again.

I mean, Confucius and Seneca are both these sort of, you know, successful advisors to, like, sort of philosophical advisors to princes in the correct, you know, sort of times of excess and autocracy there. I've almost come to think about it more like it's actually almost better to me that maybe they never did overlap because it lends itself to the idea that there is some sort of deeper profound truth that they're tapping into. It's like, I think about it, I've likened it to sort of convergent evolution. into, it's like, I think about it, I've likened it to sort of convergent evolution. Like, you know, there are species in Australia that also exist in, you know, North America, let's say, that, or whatever, where like, it's very clear that they evolved. I mean,

obviously, we all share a common ancestor, but the idea that they evolved from, that they evolved two similar states from very different starting points. To me, actually, both are both philosophies. One of the things that Dow says is that everything it teaches is obvious, right? That we know everything it teaches us before we read it, because it is the obvious truths of life. You know, if you are patient with other people and patient with yourself, your life will

be more peaceful. That's fucking obvious, right? And I think there probably is a certain accuracy or legitimacy to your idea, right? These are, you know, and you could say that the founders of the United States sort of arrived at a lot of the similar conclusions. All men are created equal, right? The stoics say that and the Dallas say that.

And we are sort of all dancing around in the same energy and the same universe. I personally try to keep things philosophically as grounded as I can. You know, I don't believe in astrology or, you know, I think a lot of the wellness industry, like crystals and smells and all that stuff is just kind of nonsense. But simple words really can help you. And so I ground my philosophies and basically stoicism and daoism. And they are very similar. And they do make your life better if you can learn to embody them.

Well, it's like if they were radically different, I feel like it might increase the probabilities that one or both of them are way off base. You know what I mean? The fact that they're circling around the same idea should hopefully make make it more likely that it's because they were getting to the same. Like if you do a math, if you do the same math problem and I do the same math problem, we should get to the same result. We could use our own methodology, but you've got to get to the same number or it doesn't work. Yeah, and honestly, like, if you read the Gospels of Christ, right? If you read the Gospels of Christ and the New Testament,

they're not that different from Stoicism or Dallism either, right? Like Christ was saying a lot of the same things, love your neighbor, be kind, be patient. Do the right thing, not because it brings you riches, but for the simple sake of doing it. I've written about this before. I have a thing going on for Christmas. We're talking before Christmas, but it's like, you know, Jesus and Seneca were born the

same year in the same, like, both in distant provinces of the Roman Empire, both were enormously popular philosophers in their own lifetime, and then both died at the hands of, you know, the authorities in that same empire. And you're just like, oh, wow, that is, that's both beautiful and perfect at the same time.

Yeah, and what made one of them the son of God and what made one of them just a guy. Right. We know that answer, but. And I would say that that answer is what in the, the, the like church dog my gathering there was a big debate is Christ divine or not and they voted right but early Christians didn't think of Jesus as divine. And he actually never claimed to be the Son of God himself. People would ask him and he would always say, if you say so, are you the Son of God, if you say so. But yeah, a lot of these core tenants say the same thing, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Stilicism, Taoism, they're preaching the same core tenants, which sort of gets back to what you were saying, that it's just this stuff that's floating around in

the universe and it's kind of like how do you find it? We're all trying to tap into it in different ways and yeah you could draw any analogy you want. There's 40 kinds of beer, which one do you like? They all take you to the same place. I wanted to ask you about someone you told me that you'd gotten to know towards the end of his life, someone who would almost certainly have some strong thoughts about what's happening in the world right now. But also at the core, you know, you go to this idea, I feel like at the end of it, like all great writers are saying the same thing too. But I wanted to ask you about Kurt Vonnegut.

Yeah, I knew Mr. Vonnegut before he passed away. I was frankly very fortunate to know Vonnegut and Norman Maylor before they passed away. And I had dinner with Kurt maybe four or five days before he died. I mean, I'm happy to discuss him. Yeah, I'm, what do you think he would, I mean, so there's a couple of things there. I guess, what do you think he would think about what's happening in the world right now? And then I'm also just curious like is he pandemic wise or yeah, pandemic and politically because I mean, here you have a guy who experienced the fire bomb and of Dresden. So I got to imagine, although he was sort of politically active and, you know, sort of had strong opinions, I also got to imagine experiencing one he was sort of politically active and, you know, sort of had strong opinions,

I also got to imagine experiencing one of the worst things that's ever happened to modern humanity would turn down the volume on the outrage for you a little bit. Give you perspective, certainly. I think in a weird way, he would probably sort of giggle a little bit at the pandemic and think that we deserved it. I think he would be both amused and disgusted by people who would deny the reality of science and almost militaristically resist simple measures that could keep you alive. I think he would be absolutely dreadfully horrified by the political environment that we live in. And in a weird way, I think he would probably say, but of course we're here.

Where else could we have ended up? We're idiots, right? I remember that last dinner I asked him, are you working on anything? What interests you these days? I'm always curious about what other people are into, right? And I remember he laughed, he goes, you know what I'm doing, man? You know what I'm doing? And I said, laughed, he goes, you know what I'm doing man? You know what I'm doing?

And I said, no, what? He's like, I just watched Law and Order all day. He's like, you know, there's a law and order on every hour of the day. He's like, you can go through your whole day watching Law and Order. And I sort of laughed, he goes, no, it's true. I've tried it. I've tested it. I've gone through 24 hours of period, 24 hour periods where I found a laughed and goes, no, it's true. I've tried it. I've tested it. I've gone through 24 hours of period,

24 hour periods where I found a law in order somewhere on Cape every hour of the day. And when I had first met him, which was a few years before he passed away, I remember the, one of the first questions I asked him, was, are you writing anything? And he just laughed he was like writing the young man's game. I'm done. I just scribbled now But he got really into art and making other things and just sort of you know writing short things

But I think he would have been both amused and deeply horrified and I do think he would have been both amused and deeply horrified. And I do think he would have seen Nazi Germany in present-day United States and been horrified by it. I think of that exchange that he had with Joseph Heller on probably a weekly, sometimes even a daily basis, where, and you've probably experienced that too, where you're in the house is some incredibly rich person who, you know, makes it in some boring, if not outright evil industry. And, and you're just like this person made more money today than my books will make in their lifetime. time and and and Vonnegut's making fun of Heller and Heller goes, but I have something that he doesn't have

and and Vonnegut says, what could that possibly be? And and Heller says, enough. Yeah. Yeah. Did Vonnegut did Vonnegut have enough? Like, was he a happy guy or no? I don't know if I would call him happy or unhappy. I would call him complicated and complicated, right? I think he probably was like a lot of people. Sometimes happy, sometimes deeply unhappy, sometimes thrilled to work, and sometimes depressed and not wanting to do anything. I didn't ever know him as somebody who didn't think

he had enough. You know, he had a wife he had been with for a long time. He had children that he loved. He lived in a place in New York that was very nice and of his choosing. And I think when I knew him, he was probably past the stage of thinking he was gonna get anything more in his life than he had had. If anything, he talked about the abundance he had.

I remember one time we were eating and I went to grab the check and he grabbed it. And I was like, let me pay a cart. He was like, do you know how many people still buy my books? I'm gonna give you. But I never knew him as somebody who didn't think he had enough. I think at the end of his life he was ready to go. That was my feeling. Like I wasn't deeply shocked, even though I had just seen him when he died.

I was sad. But I wasn't shocked. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. But I wasn't shocked. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. We did a video about this recently. Like, a stoic can't be afraid to ask for help. A stoic is not an emotionalist robot who stuffs all their emotions down and pretends they don't exist. No, as Mark really says, you're like a soldier storming a wolf.

You've got to ask a conrad for help so be it and as it happens the stoics helped influence the founding of CBT therapy which connects us well to today's sponsor talk space talk space therapists give you the support you need to feel your best Talk space has thousands of licensed therapists trained in over 40 specialties, including anxiety, depression, relationships, and more. I find that the money I spend on the therapists that I've had in my life has been some of the best money I've spent. It's been a great investment. And talk space is a fraction of the cost of in-person therapy. Instead of waiting for an appointment, you can send unlimited messages to your therapist

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Yeah, it's, there's a, there's a, a weirdness to meeting some guys like that. Not a gender thing at all. I just mean like you sort of you meet these people who are sort of done and done it at the highest level. Sometimes there are these sort of icons in their own life or whatever. And you just sort of you go, you get this sense, it's like, oh, they are just still like regular people. Like they're still just human beings, like struggling with the fact that they're old or struggling with the fact that, you know, this or that, it's very, it's a very sort of

still and I think the lowest idea too, which is like, like, human beings are very fragile. And the same thing happens to all of us towards the end, which is that we fall apart and then die. Yeah. I was watching, you know, that Clint East would movie on for given. I was watching that a couple days ago. And near the end of it, the young kid who goes on

on this sort of mission to kill somebody with Clint Eastwood says, well, we killed them but I guess he had a comment right? Clint Eastwood sort of Clint East responds by saying we all got a common kid. by saying we all got it, common kid. Yeah. And I mean, I've met a lot of, you know, I've met a lot of my heroes. I've met a lot of famous and wildly accomplished people. And yeah, you learn we're all human, right? They fart too.

They take shits. They wake up scared. They have trouble sleeping. That almost that takes you, or at least it takes me back to sort of some of the core beliefs of Taoism or stoicism, because if you have succeeded on, if you have made your dreams come true, you can be proud of yourself for that achievement,

but it doesn't make you feel any better necessarily. You still wake up and you think, okay, well, what now? And they are all human. I remember when I was 21 in Paris. I moved to Paris when I was 21 to be a famous writer. And I remember I was at a cafe with my roommate, and this was in 1992, who was a very flamboyant game man.

And we were talking about our sort of idols, and we were drinking and partying. And he was like, listen, listen, you fools. He was like, there's 10 of us at this table. We're all smart. We're all gifted. And we're all working our asses off. Like, a couple of us are going to do it. Somebody's got to do it. Somebody, and the point was somebody's going to

be that famous writer for that famous athlete, or that famous actor, or that famous philosopher, or that billionaire hedge fund manager, or whatever you want to talk about. that billionaire hedge fund manager, or whatever you wanna talk about. But they were at one point in their life in the same place where we were, right? Just start now. And somebody's gonna do it. And I always very much believe that, well, fuck, why not me?

Right? I'll work as hard as anybody. I might not be as smart as them, but I'll work as hard as anybody. I might not be as smart as them, but I can work harder that somebody's going to do it, and it might as well be me. And I think there's a lot of power in that belief, and a lot of power in that basic sort of idea if you can really let it sink in.

There's so many people I know where I met. I want to write a book. I'm like, well, why don't you? Well, I don't know where to start. And I was like, with the first word, man. That's where you fucking start. And it's like, it's just that. It's like, you gotta take the shot.

You gotta try. Or at least I believe you shot, you got to try. Or at least I believe you do, and I always have. Sometimes the great success and frankly, vastly more often to failure. To go to that point about the people you admire being these sort of flawed humans, I remember what struck me as an example that one time was reading that like Socrates

had an unhappy marriage. And he's like, here's the wisest guy who ever lived. And he picked the wrong spouse. And you're just like, oh, you know, people are people. And that oftentimes people who are very smart in one area of their life are just totally stupid or, you know, stuck in some destructive pattern in another part of their life. Yeah, I know a lot of people who almost need that destructive pattern too, to have that other side of their life, right?

Like I can't think of how many artists or writers or musicians I've met who need the chaos of life to be able to do what they do, right? And certainly I don't know Aristotle, but maybe he needed that pain that he got from his marriage to be able to do what he did in the other aspects of his life, or maybe he was just human and chose poorly. Well, to go to your point about wanting to do something big,

I think you and I sort of share sort of some trajectories around that. And there are other stoics, I talked about this guy, Dio Timis, in my new book, Liza Stokes. But it's like sometimes that ambition, that desire, you're like, hey, I'm going to make something on myself. I'm going to do it. I'm going to be that, I'm going to be one of the people that that gets over the chasm. And I'm willing to do whatever it

takes to get there. That can be an immensely powerful force, but it's also kind of a volatile one when it's difficult to control. And it may get you what you want. And then it's also kind of a volatile one when it's difficult to control and it may get you what you want and then it may also Blow up exactly what you wanted and I feel like your story has a little bit of that my mind The blow up was a little bit less public and I didn't do it on opus couch, but you know, you know what I mean? Yeah, man. I mean when I was a kid You know what I mean? Yeah, man, I mean, when I was a kid, I was a kid when I was in my late teens and 20s, early 20s, I decided I wanted to try to be a famous writer, right?

And I made that decision after I read Tropic of Cancer by Henry Miller. And Tropic of Cancer is a book that was banned for the first 35 years of existence in every English-speaking country in the world. Henry Miller was the most notorious writer in the world for most of his lifetime. And I remember when I read the topic of cancer, I kind of liked the Dow.

I couldn't believe it existed. I couldn't believe somebody wrote it. I couldn't believe somebody put those I couldn't believe somebody wrote it. I couldn't believe somebody put those words down and and lived the life that allowed them to feel and know how to put those words down. And when I said out to be a writer, that was it. I was like, I'm going to be the most controversial, most notorious writer in the fucking world. I was like, I'm going to be the most controversial, most notorious writer in the fucking world. And it took a long time for me to learn how to write a book. I've moved to Paris when I was 21, and I got my first book published when I was 31.

And for those years, those 10 years, I was working. I was working every day to try to pull it off. And then I did pull it off. You know, again, I don't want to be some braggart, but I sold a lot of books and I had a lot of books at number one. And the one you're speaking of was the first, a million little pieces. And I remember when Oprah chose it and and they sort of previous Oprah books you'd sell you know between 500 and a million copies and it was great and your next deal would be better and you'd become a high profile writer and and then she chose my book and it blew up. It sold five million copies in three months. It sold 15 around the world.

And it's a book about drugs and alcohol and how I got over them. And it became sort of a Bible for people or a guide for people in a way that I never expected. And certainly I never intended, the million little pieces shouldn't be thought of as a self-help book, right? If it helps you, great.

Sure. But it's as much a self-help book as topic of cancer is or on the road is, right? And I bring up those books because those were both books written by people who very absolutely wrote about their own lives. those were both books written by people who very absolutely wrote about their own lives. And used themselves as the protagonist of their own stories. And after a million little pieces blew up, it was selling like crazy, but it didn't

feel right. I remember I started seeing a therapist, like actually a guy you know. Fader. Fader, I was talking to Fader this morning, he says hi. I talked to him last week. But I remember I went to see him, and I said, listen man, this isn't what I signed up for. I didn't sign up to be like Deepak Chopra

or like Oprah's rehab guy. I was like, I'm in this to be the most notorious motherfucker in the world and what the fuck happened. And I was having trouble dealing with fame. I didn't enjoy fame. I still, you know, it sounds bratty or whatever, but I still don't. I never had any desire to be famous. I had a desire to be great. And I had a desire to be notorious. And I had a desire to write things that change people's lives and change the world in the way books like Rimbaud's, Season in Hell, or Butterlayers, Paraspleen, or Selene, or Henry Miller, or Carawac, or Brett Ellis, or Norman Maler or Kurt Bonnigat, the way their books changed me and changed the world. And then it all blew up, you know?

And I remember, I got, yeah, I got screamed out by Oprah. I got lots of bad things written about me. And I remember the next time I went to see Fater after it started to blow up, he was like, well, how do you feel, man? And I was like, I don't really know. He like, well, how do you feel, man? I was like, I don't really know. He goes, well, you got what you wanted. How does it feel? And I hadn't really thought about it that way. I was just sort of in the rest of it.

I was like, you're right, man. I don't know how it feels yet, but that moment where he was like, you've got what you wanted. It was kind of a profound moment for him, because for me, because I realized he was right. And I realized that contrary to what people thought, like I wasn't down, I wasn't miserable. I didn't think my career was over. It had moved to a place where I wanted it to go and where I had absolute freedom, right?

To do whatever the fuck I wanted. Nobody expected anything from me. I had money. I knew whatever I wrote was going to be published, and I knew it would get enormous amounts of negative attention, which was cool with me. You know, the Dow has this saying, if you care what other people think, you will always be their prisoner. And I've always believed that.

And I was like, all right, well, fuck it. Everybody thinks I'm done. What got me here and what can get me out? And it was writing, right? People don't breed a million little pieces. And it still sells a shit ton of copies. You know, you talk about evergreen books, right? It's an evergreen book. And it was like, people don't read it because of the things I lied about or I wrote about.

Like, the big controversy was I wasn't in jail for as long as I said I was. Cool. Some of my friends killed themselves in different ways than I wrote about them. Cool. But people read that book because I think I tapped into some deep part of our emotional selves and it moves people. And that's really what's the only goal is to move people, right? The books I've mentioned all just moved me deeply and that's all I wanted to do. And I believe that just because Oprah was mad at me, and just because a bunch of people who work from the New York Times and Washington Post and Chicago Tribune were fucking mad at

me, and just because some lawyers were mad at me, I didn't take away what I could do, and what I could do was put words together, one after the other, after the other, and move people's hearts and souls in a profound way. And so I just got back to it. I didn't read the media, I didn't give a shit, I left America for a while, and I wrote another book. And I deeply believed, and this is very stoic, I think, and very very Taoist that if I put my head down and I kept working that everything would be fine and it was. And I was, I can't say I was right, but the lessons I learned from Stoics and Taoists were right. Yeah, and there must be a part, I think there is like in that ambition that desire to sort of touch the world and be known and

be seen and you know maybe even be hated. There's kind of a self-destructiveness to it, but if you can survive it, you come out at a better place. You know what I mean? Like you sort of once you really feel what it feels like to have a lot of people really angry at you and you can survive it. Well, it was interesting. Come out better. You were bringing up Bonnigat and you know guys I was talking to when I was going through that I was talking to Brett Easton Ellis who had been through it with Psycho. I was talking to Brett McInerney, or Jay McInerney, who had been through it with Bright Light's Big City. I was talking to Bonniggett, and I was talking to Mailer who'd been through it in 20 ways, right?

And it's part of the game. Writing in books is sort of a dying art and culture now, but back when I first started doing this, it was a big deal. And part of the game was writing controversial things that caused problems that held mirrors up to societies and ways that societies didn't want to look at themselves. And if you wanted to be a great writer writer you better be prepared to get hammered. Except that when you're a young writer you don't think of that right you think of Henry Miller's book was banned for 35 years how fucking cool is that. But you don't realize what it must have felt like to him to have his great masterpiece unreadable. felt like to him to have his great masterpiece unreadable, right? Or you think about Norman Mayler getting hammered for God knows what, you know, which book of his didn't he get hammered for. And you think about the fact that he just kept going, right?

Vomigate, surviving World War II, surviving Dresden, surviving a lot of years where he wrote incredible books that nobody read, right? Um, and he just kept going. Um, Brett Ellis, Psycho, just kept going, Joey, and I just sort of realized like, this is part of it. If you want to play a big boys game, you're going to get hurt. And if you can't take it, get out. If you can't stand the heat. Yeah. And I was willing to, you know, football and allergy, I was willing to stand in the pocket. I was willing to stand there until some guy crushed me because I always believed. And'm still due to this day that I can get up. I think that line and in Kipling's if because I've been reading it to my son at night where he says, you know, and and bear to have your words twisted by nays into a trap to make a trap for fools.

trap for fools. Like, you know, to know that it's like, hey, you're going to do something from this perspective. Maybe you're even going to be up front about it. You're going to come from a place of this intention or that intention. And just like, hey, like people, people are not only not going to get what you're doing, they're going to take the exact opposite of what you're doing and describe the exact opposite of your intention. And you're basically just going to have to sit there and take it. And that's the gig, man. That's the fucking gig. Get used to it. Yeah.

I, I, I, I, one of my books, and part of what I like is when they're done, I, I just get rid of them, right? And, and learn, meaning I get rid of them from myself. They're in the world. They're gonna have their own life. People can say whatever they want about it. It has nothing to do with me. And almost that lets me just keep going. You write a book, you put it in the world,

you understand it's gonna have its life. You understand like any life that will be ups and downs. There will be positive times and negative times. And if people want to kill you for it, I don't care. I never care how people interpret my books. Because I don't read them. I don't even remember a lot of what's in them. And this must have been about 10 years ago.

There's a really great event. And this must have been about 10 years ago. There is a really great event. I hope it still exists in Leone, Leone France called the International Symposium of the Novel. And they would invite like, Iver6 writers from different countries, and you would come, it was every two years. But I remember when I went,

which was like eight or 10 years ago, part of what I did there, and you go for like a week and you do all this stuff was I met with five French doctoral students who were writing their dissertations on me, right? And I remember the questions they had about things I wrote. And I honestly, I think I just bummed them all out and disappointed them because I was like, I didn't, that, no, that's not what I was thinking or no, that's not what I meant. And it ended up being sort of an interesting, but I think almost unsatisfying exercise for them because I was like, listen, you can write whatever the fuck you want about my books. I don't give a

shit. However, you want to interpret them as cool with me. Whatever you think my intention was was cool with me. I don't care. Say whatever you want. This book is in the world and it's on its own, right? It's almost like having a kid that you at 18, you just send them out. Say, see you later, kid. Don't ever call me again. That's kind of how I do it with my books. It's like, see you later, kid. You're on your own. Good luck.

I just walk away. Yeah, Churchill said at some point you, you kill it and fling it to the public and yeah, that's how it goes. I've never heard that, but yeah, that's, that's how I play it, right? You finish it and you walk away and you move on to the next one. Or you take some time off or you do whatever it is you want to do. That's the perfect place to close this, I think. We'll fill it in, we'll fling it to the audience'll kill it and we'll fling it to the audience.

Let's kill it and fling it to the audience. There we go. Hey, man, I do want to say like, you've been a great friend to me for a lot of years. And I really, you know, maybe this isn't the place to say it, but I don't care. Like I appreciate it. I think you're awesome.

I love this. I love it. And frankly, I love your other work. I think conspiracy is one of the best books I've read in the last decade, just in a stale piece of fucking work. Oh, man. Thank you. No, you were so, you reached out to me.

I was in Brazil doing a talk and you sent me a note on over email or Twitter or something and I was so glad you did because we've gotten to know each other and you've been very nice and very supportive and given me a bunch of great advice as well. So right back at you. Thanks man. When this is over let's meet up somewhere and have a dinner like we have before. Yeah let's do it again. All right well thank you and love to you and love to the family and Likewise, and stay safe Thanks for listening to another episode of the Daily Stoke It's mind blowing to me now that we are well over 30 million downloads at this show It means so much to me to have all of you listen if you want to help spread the word about the show Please leave a review on iTunes or whatever your favorite podcasting platform is.

It helps a lot. And then of course, click subscribe. That's how we know how many people are listening and that makes sure you get the episodes as they come in. So thanks again for listening to The Daily Stoke Podcast. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to The Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.