The Daily Stoic - Jay Shetty On How to Think Like a Monk

Episode Date: January 6, 2021

On today’s podcast Ryan talks to influencer and author Jay Shetty about his former life as a monk, finding stillness in the modern world, and focusing on the process rather than the outcome. Jay Shetty is a British author and influencer with a mission to make wisdom go viral. His videos have reached over 4 billion viewers and he has a combined 20 million followers on social media. He is the host of the On Purpose podcast and released his bestselling book, Think Like a Monk, in September 2020.This episode is brought to you by GiveWell, the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. GiveWell’s team of researchers works countless hours to determine which charities make the most effective dollar-for-dollar contributions to the causes they support. Since 2010, GiveWell has helped over 50,000 donors donate over 500 million dollars to the most effective charities, leading to over 75,000 lives saved and millions more improved. Visit GiveWell.org/stoic and your first donation will be matched up to 100 dollars.This episode is also brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs is the best platform for finding the right candidate to join your business this fall. It’s the largest marketplace for job seekers in the world, and it has great search features so that you can find candidates with any hard or soft skills that you need. Visit http://linkedin.com/stoic to get fifty dollars off your first job post.This episode is also brought to you by the Jordan Harbinger Show. Jordan's podcast is one of the most interesting ones out there, with guests like Kobe Bryant, Mark Manson, Eric Schmidt, and more. Listen to one of Ryan's episodes right now (1, 2), and subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show today.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Jay Shetty:Homepage: https://jayshetty.me/Twitter: https://twitter.com/JayShettyIWInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/jayshetty/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JayShettyIW/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbV60AGIHKz2xIGvbk0LLvgSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stood Podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stood Podcast where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life, each one of these passages is based on the 2000 year old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more you can visit us dailystod.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever

you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Daily Stope Podcast. It feels literally like an eternity ago now, but in fact it was only June of 2019, maybe August of 2019. Anyways, the late summer of 2019, I think my publisher portfolio flew me out to Los Angeles to pre-record a bunch of interviews for my then upcoming Stillness is the Key, which has now been out for over a year. But anyways, one of the interviews I went and did was with my friend, Jay Shetty.

I've known Jay forever. We used to go for walks whenever I'd come to New York. He interviewed me think way back for a daily stoic launch, maybe even, for a couple different online shows he did. And while I was with Jay, he was telling me about his new book, which he'd sent me a new copy of. And so I interviewed him for the daily stoic

podcast thinking that his book was gonna be coming out in the spring of 2020. I'd run the interview on this show, but life intervened and think like amongst launch, which is a great book. Think like amongst launch was postponed because of the pandemic and then it came out this fall. And then we lost the file and we couldn't do it. And I just got it from him. And so here is my interview with Jay Shetty, whose new book Think Like A Monk has been a bestseller. You've seen Jay everywhere. He's got millions of Instagram followers. It's a great follow. And he's been on Ellen and a bunch of other places. As it happens,

not only had so much time passed, but also the format of the show has changed. So originally, we were doing a short sort of 10, 15 minute episodes. Now we do these longer interviews. So what I set up with Jay is we have my interview with him at the front. And then we have a chunk of his interview with me at the back. So this is a full hour long episode. But it's more like a conversation because it's two people talking. I interview him a little bit. He interviews me a little bit. And I'm excited to present this interview with Jay Shetty. You can check out Think Like Among, you can follow him at Jay Shetty. I'm pretty much all the social platforms. And I hope you like this one. I hope nothing feels too dated. It feels so much as transpired in the world since we recorded that, but here we go.

I'm here with Jay Shetty, who's probably done more to popularize ancient wisdom and philosophy and spiritual insights, and basically anyone you're a master of Facebook and YouTube and Instagram and all that. My question for you, so your book is, think like a monk. What is the difference between how a monk thinks and a like, do you know Stephen Pressfield?

I don't know him personally, but I know he is. He has this idea that there's like amateur thinking and professional thinking, right? And he has different, like, a professional artist thinks this way and amateur artists thinks this way. But like, how does a monk think and how does a not monk think? Can you be an idiot? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So first of all, thanks for doing this right. I really appreciate it.

And I'm happy to talk with you you I'm a big fan of your books So it's always nice to talk books with someone who's deeply into books for me It's the difference though monk see as as the monk mind and the monkey mind Oh, so the monkey mind is considered to the part of our minds that is like jumping from bronze to bronze and just Being distracted by different fruits on every tree. Whereas the monk mind is focused, intentional, and aware at all times. The monkey mind is looking at selfish desires and greedy desires of hoarding.

And finding its own little corner just a story of its stuff, whereas the monk mind is looking at service and selflessness and giving. The monkey mind is fascinated by comparison, complaining and criticism. Like, oh, like, what's the latest gossip? And how do I make myself feel better or worse based on everyone else?

Whereas the monk mind is finding significance in its own identity. So those are just some of the broad differences you see in the monk and the monkey mind. And the monkey mind is something I think we all experience every day. And it's there when we're on our way to work, it's there when we're scrolling through Instagram, it's there when you're talking to your partner, you're dinner with another couple. And so that monkey mind is something we're very aware of. But when I wrote this book, I wanted to share the monk mind because I wanted to share the alternative, the antida.

In the Stoics, the distinction is between the wise man and the fool, right? And there's like the sage and the idiot, basically. Not that the fool is incapable. The fool might be very successful, but they are motivated in thinking about the wrong thing, a person might be in the sway of their monkey mind but could be a billionaire, you know, a celebrity or whatever. But so I've got to imagine

like what separates the monk from the monkey mind is the training. Yes. And you actually trained to be a monk, like, talked to me about, like, that training. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I didn't just dive into it. I'd been spending a lot of my some of vacations and holidays between the ages of 18 to 22 living in an ashram in India because I got fascinated by the lifestyle.

Yeah. And when I went on to be among myself between age 22 to 25, it was the opposite of anything I've ever done. Yeah. Like, you know, you grow up as a teenager, you're waking up at whatever 9, 10 am. I'm waking up at 4 am. As a teenager, you always want branded clothes or nice stuff. I've got two sets of clothes. Like, where one you wash one. You

have a bedroom growing up as a teenager. Mine was covered in posters of wrappers and athletes that I loved. I'm now living out of a gym locker, like all my possessions fit into a gym locker. So from an external point of view, it's a complete the antithesis of the life I'd grown up in. And what I loved about it was that I started challenging myself around how I lived very early on. Okay. And the test or the hypothesis I had was,

can I be happy with less, both physically and internally? And the answer from the test was yes. But what was interesting about the training is that it also made me better when now I do have. Yes, sure. And that's what I wanted to share with people. That's what the books call think like among, not live like among.

So I'm not expecting anyone to read the book and then give up all their possessions and live with nothing. But I'm actually saying that this mindset has actually allowed me to be more grateful with what I do have. It's allowed me to be a better user of what I do have. Sure. And, and a better advocate for it. And so I don't think I would have had that ability had I not been trained. Well, that's one of the things that's interesting to me about your story and I think ties you maybe more in the Stoke tradition. Like this isn't a totally fair, it's sort of a strong man argument I do,

but I go like, look, the monk is in the ashram in India or the monastery in the hills of Japan or whatever it is, whereas the Stoke is like the man in the marketplace. So it's the female CEO, it's the activist, it's the philosopher in action. And so I'm interested in, so you went there, but then you came back and now you're here out in the world, right?

Yeah. Do you, is that what philosophy is? Is this or is it the retreat? You know what I mean? Yeah, so the way I describe it is my three years of living as a monk was like being at school. And the last seven years since I've left to bend the exam.

And so I see that as training, as school. And I think that's the life school that we all miss. And so for me, I was fortunate enough to get the life school in the way that I'm seeing it. And then the last seven years, the reason I'm writing this book now is I've had to test everything. And believe me, there were moments when I came back and I was like, wow, I just wasted three

years of my life. Yeah. Like, I missed out on my career, I missed out on a great resume, I missed out on relationships, and that's how I felt when I came back. Sure. But then it was almost like my monk training kicked back in again. I was like, okay, let me apply all these teachings. And when I started applying them in reality, I was like,

oh wow, they worked. Like these things work in the real world. Yeah, sure. And that's where my confidence comes to. And I'm with you. I think philosophy is practical philosophy and application. Yeah. This what I'm living now is everything I train for.

It's like, it's like the... It's almost easier to do it in the ashram, because you're- Totally, and it's like the workshop on the battlefield. Like, you know, the archer or the sword fighter or whatever it is, like, they're training every single day. But it's like, when they go on the battlefield, that's when all that training is useful.

Sure. And so for me, that's how I see it, whether you're an athlete and you're training five days a week, but you know it's training. Yeah, you know if you miss the shot, it doesn't matter. It's not real. It's not real. And so for me, when I left, and now I put it under practice, I'm like, oh, it works, it's real. So I know you sometimes I'll see you quote or tweet from the stokes. I'm just curious, like, what is your relationship with the philosophy? You think about it all, there are stories you like, quotes you like from Stoicism?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I really enjoy, I think I've learned more about it through you. And that's why I said that I've loved your work so much. And I was always fascinated by Socrates and Aristotle mainly, I think I've quoted them the most. Plato's Republic was fascinating. And I remember diving deep into that when I saw what was happening politically,

and I'm not political at all, but just looking at it from that perspective as fast as the BBC did an incredible documentary piece on it around in 2016. And it breaks down how each one of the five pillars of play this republic transparent to what we're seeing today. And so for me it was again,

I've just always been fascinated by different philosophies on life, but based, I think what really fascinates me is how there is so much stuff that's been said for so many years, and we think we need something new, and we just want to be fascinated with the new, and I quote Ivan Pavlov, but I think Martin Luther King said something similar around, if you want a new idea, read an old book. And so for me, that's where my fascination comes from is what are the parallels between timeless wisdom. And I call it timeless because it's not ancient. It applies now, everything you know. And whether it's 2000 years old, stoic or whether it's 5000 years old Vedic, it's still relevant. Sure.

Because people are people. Because people are people. And our problems haven't changed in the deepest level of it. We still experience loss. We still experience fear, we still experience anxiety, in different ways, but it's the same thing. And for me, what I love is finding the parallels between timeless wisdom and modern science. Yes. That's kind of where I get my personal kick. Sure.

No, no, that makes sense. Yeah, and all the studies, and the books full of them, but the studies that I've looked at show how monks brains are the happiest brains on the planet. Yeah. And to me, I was just like, how have we missed this? Totally. And because their brain is the happiest,

the brain we know can be trained in a certain way through practices and techniques. And so it's like, if we could get those out to everyone, imagine if everyone could think like a monk, how cool would it be? Isn't it crazy how, like, whether it's a monk or a philosopher or a priest or a saint or, you know, whatever it is, they're all kind of this,

like Gandhi, Socrates, Jesus, Marcus Aurelius, Epic Titus. Salad Lava. Yeah, they're the same, unfortunately, they're mostly guys, right? It's been a man's world for most of it. But it, like, they're the, that's the same dude. Yeah. They're all bald, they're all small, they're all frail.

Do you know what I mean? Like, they're, but they have the fundamentally though, what they mostly have, it's the same energy. Yes. And some stillness. Yes. You know, like your book and the same, the same presence. Yeah.

And at least what I learned from my teachers was this principle of Yuctuve Raguya, which means real renunciation or that real renunciation. I remember when I became a monk and I gave everything up and I put my robe on for the first time and I was thinking, I'm so detached. Like I felt like that. Like I'm so detached. Like I gave up the life that everyone has in London and all the ego was there. And I asked one of my teachers, I was like, what's the definition of renunciation? And I was hoping he was going to say, like, you know, you did it. Yeah, you did it. And he says to me, he says, he says, real renunciation is using everything for a higher purpose. So it's not actually

getting rid of it. So, you know, there's a famous verse that I quote and it's, detachment doesn't mean that you own nothing. Detachment means that nothing owns you. Yes. And that's what it means that if you're using everything you have for a higher purpose, then it doesn't own you anymore because it's not your sole focus. So for me, my teacher's the way they were teaching us was always that this is a mindset that you can live anywhere and everywhere Yeah, and it's not bound by the physical walls of the ashram one of my favorite things from Senna he goes like sure Using like cheap dishes is impressive, right?

He's like but what's actually maybe more impressive is using expensive dishes as if they are cheap dishes Right like like not being attached like it's easy to go like, okay, I just use paper plates. I don't care. But can you tell yourself, oh this expensive family dish or this gift that you got or the fact that you could afford fine China is just as worthless as the paper plate. And that's just as fragile. And that ties into the zen.

It's already broken. Can you treat it any of it, whether it's nice or not nice as not yours, as fleeting, as a femoral, whether you're stoic or zen, that's what you're trying to get. Totally, exactly. And it was always about how it's not about how much you give, it's about how much you're holding back. Yes. So it's not like, oh, I'm giving up all of this.

Yeah. But it's like, how much are you still holding back when? Right. Which could just be ego or sense of superiority or exactly, exactly. So. So last question for you, because I think we are on the same road here. Yeah. I love your your slogan of like your mission is to make wisdom go viral. Yes. I guess, you know, a pure philosopher might be like, oh, that wisdom is viral. It doesn't need to be like, talk to me about using these like modern tools to spread ancient ideas.

Yeah, I just, you know, if I'm completely honest, when I started, there was no strategy, there was no idea of what it was gonna be. I thought I was gonna work a full-time corporate job when I came back and I'd make videos on the evenings and weekends and hopefully that help people. And the way I sort of been helping people was just, I believe that people wanted to and were having deep conversations.

And they were already there, but I wanted to make it more accessible and relevant for people to have anywhere and everywhere. So people could send one of my videos to someone and be like, we were just talking about this. And they could find that affinity in something external that they don't get to. They could find in books, but I wasn't seeing that. I was always looking at movies and media, and how they brought about cultural shifts. But because movies were fiction, no one took them seriously enough. So the Matrix, for example, we know it's got a ton of spiritual principles

behind it. You look at the pursuit of happiness. It's got a ton of, and that's a real story, but so many good, even Marvel universe, it's got phenomenal lessons, but it's fiction. Sure. And so we don't take anything from it. So my point was, how could we create media that allows people to have greater access and relevancy? And I think I read a statistic that year

that was like more people own a phone than a toothbrush. And so I was like, first of all, we should get more people. That's gross, yeah. Second of all, how do we get more people own a phone than a toothbrush. And so I was like, first of all, we should get more people. That's gross, yeah people. Second of all, how do we get more people who have phones to have access to this, even if they don't have the money, or they don't have the parenting,

or they don't have the access, how can we make sure that every kid out there has an opportunity to find this? Well, that idea about sort of renunciation, what's true renunciation, to me there's always been something deeply unthulisophical about this like elitism, about philosophy and information. It's like, look, not everyone has time

to go read a 3,000 page philosophy book with a bunch of big words that by the way, no one taught them to understand. And like, if they want to start with Instagram posts, like, not only am I not going to fault them, I'm going to congratulate them and encourage them for that to be the first step in a long journey. And hopefully they will go to the original text

and we'll deep dive deeper into it. Totally, and I think that's what you've done so beautifully. And you know, that's been my goal is like, I've read all the, I've had such a fortune of being. And I was that's what you've done so beautifully. And that's been my goal, is like, I've read all the, I've had such a fortune of being. And I was that kid, right? Like for me, I'm creating for the kid that I was. Sure.

So I was 18 years old, I wasn't spiritual. Yeah. I wasn't philosophical. We're on the computer. Yeah. And I wasn't a computer. And I was fortunate after meet monks. Yeah.

Like how many people get to meet monks? Sure. And my point is same with you, how many of us will ever meet a stoic, right, or met a stoic? And it's like, I feel we need to give people an opportunity to be exposed to a broad variety of thoughts and people so that people can make good decisions for themselves. Because right now in social media, if we weren't doing that, they're only exposed to a certain archetype.

And to me, I'm like, well, that's limiting. Yeah. Because now you don't have like, if I never met a monk, I would never have wanted to be a monk. Right. I don't know who introduced you to stoicism. Dr. Drew. Right. Okay. So there you go. It's like, if you'd never got introduced, I wonder what you'd be doing today. No, not this. Yeah. Exactly. Right. And so for my point is like, what if you were only exposed to the same five things that everyone are exposed to?

Right. What does that create? And so for me, I'm writing and creating for the person that I was. Yeah. And I want to make wisdom go viral because I think it's everyone's right to have access to it. Yeah. And in the same way as you said, I don't think it should be an elitist pursue.

Yeah, I think you got to meet people where they are. 100%. And also, there's this, like everyone's how you see these sort of snooty trend pieces about, like look at these losers in the Silicon Valley, like studying philosophy, or like Buddhism is for, you know, like white ladies in yoga pants,

or whatever, like, and it's like, I get that there is some perversion of it, or maybe some people are using it for the wrong reasons, but it's like, isn't that better than some perversion of it or maybe some people are using it for the wrong reasons. But it's like, isn't that better than, like what would you rather than be doing? I get asked that a lot, people like, the only thing people are using a watered down version. I'm like, you know what, if it improves people's lives

and it gets them a step closer, I'm good with that. Totally. I don't, who am I to decide how deep they should go? And it's like vaping is not good, but it's better than cigarettes. Totally. Who am I to decide how deep they should go and... It's like vaping is not good, but it's better than cigarettes. So let's, you know, and nicotine gum is better than vaping. Like, let's work people towards where we want them to go. Totally.

And let's not, you know, let's not project our holier than thou and being better than, like, you know, what we should be like, I don't think I'm better for knowing or having access to this. I feel fortunate. Yeah. You're grateful. And you want to pay it forward. That's it.

Yeah. That's awesome. All right. So tell people where they can find the book and where they can follow you. Yeah. Absolutely. Come and find me on thinklikeamunkbook.com. We have access all over for audiobooks, which I'm reading as well, which I can't wait

to. I'm doing it this way. Oh, it's brutal, man. As we get ready. Yeah. So I've got it for the next week. And of course, the book as well. So think like among book.com and you can find me on Instagram at JShitty. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors

and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday's parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown Aller, we will be your resident not-so-expert-expert. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding,

and thinking, oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong, what would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad free on the Amazon music or Wondery app. Welcome to the show Ryan Holiday.

Thanks for having me. I wish we could be walking. I know. Joe, I've thought about that many times. Like could you do a good interview walking? Yeah. And I think the audio police would be on my case and they'd be like, Jay, the audio's gonna be terrible.

No, it's gonna be. You can't control the environment, which would be bad, but like it is ironic that I find sort of the most stillness like in movement. You know, so like for me, like I do all my phone calls walking. So like that to do a phone call someone I walk when we met in New York that time, we're like, why would we sit here? We could go for, I like to go outside, you get moving and then weirdly, it slows the, I think it turns off parts of the mind and then it focuses other parts of the mind.

So like somehow the body moving creates a kind of an inner stillness that I that I love. That's fascinating. What what does stillness mean to you? Like because that already is like you're not thinking about stillness in it's not just it's just a gross form of stillness like a physical. What is stillness to you? To me, it's when everything kind of slows down when you eliminate what's extraneous when you become sort of fully present in whatever it is that you're doing. And you have the ability to sort of direct your thoughts, direct your body, direct your sort of spirits and emotions

rather than kind of be directed by them. So like what's interesting is I think, when you think about the really great people that you admire whether they're spiritually great or athletically great or creatively great, I think what they all share is some kind of stillness. There's even if they're really active,

there's something about them that is really deep, and so the book and where I've tried to go in my life more recently is like, how do you cultivate that? How do you create that? How do you create space for that? Because I think it's where all the good stuff comes from. Yeah, absolutely. No, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, when you're talking about Steunister, you're a dad too. Yeah. And I'm intrigued by how the process of stonest, I'm not a dad, you know. So I'm asking as early coaching. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm married. So I, you know, hopefully we'll have to at some point. But, you know, what's the latest adventure you went on with your son or where you see stonest in that relationship? So that's actually like every morning we get up, my kids like do not sleep well. So we get up early, I take them outside and we go for a walk while my wife catches up on sleep. And so that walk is like a huge part of the routine for us.

I think as I don't take a phone on it, so I'm not doing anything but that. And we're outside and we experience nature, we see things, they sing, we talk. And it, what's interesting to me is like how much crazier the day is if we don't do that. Like even though they're not, so it's not actually them being tired because they're not walking, I'm walking. But the, it somehow ripples through the day if we don't have that kind of centering experience. I think there's something too about like getting up early, that's really great about getting outside, that's great.

But you kind of realize that I think one of the weird things about being a parent is like, you think it's going to be doing all these activities, right? It's all that it's like, you're doing, but it's actually it's just like the being there that is parenting. So it's like, oh, we're just going to play in the dirt for the next hour. And by we, I mean, like you're going to do it. I just have to sit here and let you do that. And so it's kind of, it's kind of humbling because you think it's going to be this

active thing that you're in charge of. But really, it's, it's much more about you sort of allowing and encouraging and participating and sort of protecting than it is, you know, planning and organizing. Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. And you talk there about how you're not trying to be distracted at the time. Yes. And I know you've talked about like not using a phone for the first 30 minutes. Yeah, that's part of my thing is like, yeah, I started with 10 minutes and I worked my, like it could be now I might say I wake up at six. I might not touch my phone till 11 or 12.

Like it's, it's, the point is, it's, it's, it's not the phone is bad. And it's not even the things inside the phone are bad. It's that I want to be in control rather than be controlled by the technology. So just the amount of people I know that it's like, what Donald Trump tweeted while they're sleeping is determining the caliber of their day or the quality of their day. And it's like, let's say that's too politically charged. It's just like that email that came in while they were sleeping. they didn't actually need to see until later until they, so for me, it's like, because I write, it's about protecting the space to do the writing.

So that's like, I want to go for the walk, I want to do the journaling, I want to get in the right headspace, and then I want to go into the writing. But I don't want is, you know, some email from my accountant or email from my publisher or email from random hater who I don't even know how they got my email, I don't want that to get in my head and be like, actually know all the work, all the preparation, all the things you should be thinking about, that's out the window because so and so messed up

or so and so said you're an asshole or whatever it is. You have to protect that space and look, it'd be wonderful if you could get to a place where nothing that anyone said, you know, had a had an impact on you. You could tune it out. This is not the reality. So I'd rather create an environment that allows me to, you know, to, to be focused. Yeah. I'm a hundred from with you and that's amazing that you've been able to do it from,

because I wake up around six, two, and I've trained myself to not look at my phone till about eight, 15 when I go to the gym. But those two and a half hours is really great. Yeah, it's a great time. That's like when I'm meditating, it's when I'm doing gratitude, it's when I'm eight, 15's when I go to the gym,

so it's like only on my walk down to the gym, but I found that whenever I break that rule, and of course, I still have days where I have that rule, and I'll wake up and I wake up a bit late, and I look at my phone at like, say, seven. It's like, I could wait two hours. Totally. Being reactive in bed, and now it's like, my meditation is going to happen later. My exercise routine may not happen that day. And the amount of time it consumes as well. And it doesn't just have to be bad things, right? I remember I was I was in LA when stillness came out. And so the way it works is in your experiences. So your book comes out and

then there's a week on sale. And then basically like they're tallying the sales on Monday and Tuesday. And then Wednesday you get the numbers. And that's when you find out about the New York Times list. And congrats. Thank you. But this is that story, right? So, yeah. So, like, I was, I woke up because I was traveling, I couldn't use like, there was no alarm clock.

So, I had to use my phone as the alarm clock. So, it makes it harder to not check your phone when it's literally if to turn it off to wake up. And so, like, I woke up at the time, and my plan was to go swimming, but I could see a bunch of text messages from my agent and from my publisher that were sitting on the home screen. And so it was like, okay, the rules you don't use the phone. From what I knew, it was heading in the right direction.

So it's probably good news, right? But I had to sort of consciously go like, actually, no, like I want to exist for the next hour or two hours of the workout and the journaling and the writing I want to do for the day, as if that reality, like apart from that reality. And in universe where there's like Schrodinger's cat, like where you don't know if it's a live or dead, you don't know if the news is good or bad. Like I just want to exist for two hours more

not knowing either way. And so it was like, I'm not going to check it. I'm going to go do the thing because as soon as I got the good news and it was great news that we debuted at number one, we saw more copies that we thought. But it was like in a weird way that day was shot, even if it had been, it was shot just as much as it being good as it would have been. It was bad because you're like celebrating or excited.

You want to know this or that. I'm like, I don't, the whole point is that you don't wake up and be reactive. You should wake up and be intentional and do what it is that you wanna do for the day. Then once that's over, I'm fine to be reactive from noon to five. You know what I mean? Once I've gotten the important thing done,

fine to be reactive, but I don't wanna be reactive if it comes at the expense of the daily practices that I have. To me, that's what stillness is actually about. Yeah, and that's the benefit, right? Because a lot of people may listen to that and be like, well, Ryan, that means you just don't want to celebrate and you can't be happy for yourself.

Yeah. What's your issue with just having a moment, it works so hard, but actually what you're saying is, the benefit is you can be happy after, but you still want to create that space in your mind where you get to exist, be intentional, and basically train your mind out of being reactive, because whether your mind is being reactively good or reactively bad, you're still training your mind to be reactive.

Yeah, it's like, in a way, it's like people, okay, I'm not going to read the comments on my video because they're negative for what I'm right. We get why that's bad. But then what will happen also is like like you post something and it blows up. You can waste a whole day refreshing, just like just mainlining the ego. And like sure, there's some days where you should do that. Or you know, like you do that every once in a while. It's not like the worst thing in the world. It's like having a soda or something. But you realize you could lose a whole day. And so it's like, wait, the reward for my success in this instance is that I'm not doing the thing that I actually love doing. Like, I didn't become a writer so I can

refresh things, you know, I didn't become a writer so I could count the likes or the comments. I became writer because I genuinely enjoy writing. And so I could count the likes or the comments. I became a writer because I genuinely enjoy writing. And so I actually, you want to see anything that deprives you of the chance to do that as, like I think it's like, you know, Bob Dylan didn't want to go accept his Nobel Prize thing. It's like, yeah, I totally get that. Like it's not that he doesn't want it. It's that it's like he doesn't want to fly and waste a whole day doing something that he didn't try to fly and waste a whole day doing something that he didn't

try to get in the first place. That's the highest level of doing it and probably more disciplined than I have, but I think early in your career you think like doing interviews is going to be awesome, getting attention is going to be awesome. Seeing yourself hit number one is going to be awesome. Then if you actually get to the right place about it, you see those things as like distractions from what you actually want to be doing. That's powerful. That's powerful using the web distraction from what you want to be doing. I read this thing, this like sort of obituary of Kobe Bryant, and they were saying like this ESPN reporter was saying like two weeks, two or three weeks before he died, she had texted him to say, like,

hey, I want to interview you for this story. And like on the one hand, yeah, the reason you want to become the world's best at whatever it is you do is to be interviewed. You want to see yourself on ESPN and he has shooty-holes and social media followers and things that would benefit from being in the media. And his response was like, he texted her back.

He's like, can't, my girls are keep me busy, like hit me up some other time. And first of the discipline that takes normally is incredible. But I'm so touched by the idea that like he didn't know how much time he had left. And so, and he didn't, he doesn't control that, right? Like, he doesn't control the fact that he's about to be deprived of years of life. But he does control whether he's going to waste 15 minutes or not. And he shows in that moment to not waste it. And he gave that time to the people that he loved. And I'm so touched by that.

I think, to me, that's like his final performance, right? And so I try to think about that always. And I thought about it by that. I think, to me, that's his final performance, right? And so I try to think about that always. And I thought about it for a long time, but I'm always looking for examples of that powerful know for that ability. I called Robert Green this morning, who's been sort of my mentor for a long time.

And I was like, Robert, I'm like driving by your house on my way to this thing. Do I'm gonna stop by and say hello? And he was like, I'm doing my work right now. Let's see each other later. I'm like, like, you could be insulted by that, but actually I was like, I was like, oh my God, this is how, this is what it takes to be great.

Do you know what I mean? And like, so in a weird way, I was not only was I not hurt, I was like, that's that's that's professionalism. Do you know what I mean? Like, but it, because it's easier to say, yes, it needs to be like, oh, come over like, oh, turn on the TV or oh, you know, whatever, it's easy to say, yes, it's hard to say now. Yeah, absolutely. There was another interview, remind me of that. And with Kobe Bryant and I think it was one of his last interviews as well Carman Bourd channel. It was on but he was asked like to describe with one word a few things in his life And so they asked him like basketball. He says love and LA and he says home and then they asked him

retirement. Yeah, and he says peace And and you know, it's it's an amazing thing. And I was fortunate after interview, Kobe, Brian, last year. And even when you were with him, he was in such a peaceful, happy space in retirement, which for most athletes, it's the opposite, right? It's like full of anxieties. Like you're trying to figure out your identity again,

and who you are and your ego and everything. Whereas for him, he was just totally like happy storytelling and writing and like funny enough like in this storytelling world. And I like basketball. I don't know everything about it. So we ended up talking for an hour about storytelling because that's what he was doing now.

And he was so satisfied with that being his purpose. Yeah. And anyway, it's just when someone says peace in retirement, you're like, wow, like that, you know, it stillness is the key. No, no, that's like, wow, there's so much. You wish everyone could have that. And I think the other thing, you might go like,

okay, how many years of not peace for so many years of peace? But that it's actually like what the, what the sort of philosophers would say East and West is like, one minute of it is everything. Do you know what I mean? Like, if East and West is like one minute of it is everything. Do you know what I mean? Like if you could experience it for one minute, you'd experience it for eternity, you know?

And so to get there at 40 is impressive, to get there at all is impressive. And I think the sort of stoke practice of momentum where actually a momentum-mory ring every day. You give me the coin. I have an outfit. Oh, you do. So I started wearing, you know, the sort of stoic practice of momentum or where actually a momentum or a ring every day. Yes. I have an outfit. Oh, you do.

Yeah. So I started wearing this ring too, because I want to like, sort of touch it always. But yeah, the idea of like, death looming over all of it should put some urgency on it, not like, oh, I have to learn, like, people go, oh, yeah, when I retire, when I'm 60, I'll get to do that. But like, you get hit by a bus, you know, your helicopter could crash, like,

get cancer, you know, like you're the idea that death is, death should be this sort of urgent thing reminding you not to take the future for granted. And that like, you gotta be working towards that stillness or that peace or that focus or don't defer the work that you have to do because like, you don't know you going to get to come back to it. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, with all of these teachings, like obviously, Stoicism has been something that you've been helping all of us understand. And I love it.

I absolutely love it. But from that, which of the teachings in this book has kind of like, was there a teaching that almost surprised you or took you longer to wrap your head around as you've been writing all these books? Like, that's kind of come to the fore in this one? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, something you didn't believe in straight away, but kind of like, yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, one of the things I struggled with a little bit more in the book that I wanted to tackle things that made me uncomfortable. And so like, I've probably been an atheist since, I don't know, high school, high school.

On high a power. Yeah. And so, and I knew that chapter would be controversial and like, like a new piss people off. And it did piss people off. Like, let's look at the other day. Like the first review on Amazon is some person who was like triggered by the fact that I was talking about this thing.

And what I'm interested in is like things that are working for people, right? And it's like it's hard not to look back at history and not see that pretty much everyone believe in some kind of high, like, like, atheism is the exception, not the rule. And I was in Budapest a couple of months ago and I was walking by this church and they were some like classical music concert and I hate classical music but I had like and I just went in and I sat and I watched this like this sort of classical concert. They were singing in Latin in a like a Catholic, you know, like a 500-year-old Catholic church or something. in Latin, in a Catholic, you know, like a 500-year-old Catholic church or something. And, you know, the acoustics were perfect. Like, I understood none of it. But I was just like this experience,

like this experience is what people have been having for thousands of years. Like, what is it that's working for them? Why, you know, why am I closing myself off to it? So I didn't, like, I'm still like on that path, I think, but I've certainly moved from like atheist, which is like, well, you know there's no God to agnostic, which is like, I don't know. And sort of an openness to larger experiences. So I think, again, like, I think the theme in my book

is like, what is smarter, wise, or people than me a long time ago figured out? And let me try to articulate that in a modern context. And so that was certainly a big one for me. Yeah. No, I love that. And I just love how open you are because I've always said that to people. I'm like, with any belief, it's like, if someone was able to present to me a better, stronger case for a new set

of beliefs that are timeless and universal in application, I would adopt them. You should. You should. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a genuine seeker of what works, what is fascinating and what actually has an impact versus a fad or a trend that may not have that longevity.

Well, there's one of my favorite quotes from Epictetus is like, it's impossible to learn that, which you think you already know. And so actually I feel like on the path towards wisdom and learning, you shouldn't be coming more certain in your beliefs. You should actually become less certain and more open, right? And so I think it was sort of realizing, oh, this atheism is because I read a Richard Dawkins book when I was 19, which was great.

And I'm glad I read it because it made me question things I'd accepted as a child, but that if I'm just stuck there, I'm not getting better, I'm not learning, and I'm no better than people I might be criticizing for their own, you know, not thought out police. And so like, I think one of the things I've experienced is I've gotten older as I've read more

as I've become successful is like, is just a kind of an openness and a, like, less rigidity in my beliefs. And I think that's a theme in the Stoics is just this idea of like, yeah, if someone can prove that you might be wrong about something or get you to consider some question that you previously thought you had the answer to, they're doing you a huge favor.

Even if they're knocking down a whole structure that you've been living your life, they're doing you a favor because that was built on unsterty ground. And so yeah, seeking that out, embracing it, appreciating it, not not presenting it, not reacting against it has been, I think, I think it's an important practice. Yeah, I agree. That's beautifully said. Do you think it's enough? What I find fascinating about all of this is when you're an early, whether it's an early atheist, theist, early adopter of a new diet, or whatever it is, we developed this sort of like ego around being this evangelical ambassador of it.

And you're like putting everyone in a place trying to school everyone. Is that coming from what would be the stomach or the wisdom answer from? Because for me, it's like, it's almost like protective mechanism. It's like what you're saying to others is what you want to say to yourself. Sure. So it's like, it's almost like protective mechanism. Yeah. It's like, what you're saying to others is what you want to say to yourself.

Sure. So it's like, if I've just started waking up at 6 a.m., I'm now the biggest proponent of like, yeah, yeah. You wake up at 7? Like, oh, you're slacking, right? Yeah, yeah. You, you don't wake up to 6.30 or someone wakes up at 4. You're like, oh, no, that's too early.

Yeah, yeah. Could you become this false ambassador? Tell me a bit about your thought person around that ego or that. Yeah, yeah. It's like a projection about your thought person around that ego of that. Yeah, yeah, it's like a projection. Like you're so insecure about it. You gotta like convince other people about it. So then you're, yeah.

No, and I think as a public figure, someone who writes, you're definitely more prone to that. Like when I look back at my early writing, the one thing that invariably makes me cringe is like how certain I was about stuff that I'd like literally just learned about, you know, like, is that like I'd known this to be true for 30 years and then I was writing about it. It was like literally like I'd heard about this like the day before.

And that's the stuff that never age as well. I heard this great expression like it ages like milk, you know, that's not age is so badly. And like one of the weird things like when I look at obstacle ego and stillness is like, okay, obstacle is like 50,000 words. Egos like 55 and let's say stillness is 60 or something like that. And and I was like, are these books getting longer because like I'm just more full of myself or actually know it's like now when I read back obstacle, I think one of the reasons it works and so is that I'm saying things very emphatically, very clearly, but also with no nuance. You know?

And as I've gotten older as I've experienced more, it's like, it's more complicated than that. And so actually it's like as I've gotten, as I've gone out of my career, I'm less comfortable saying things in black and white terms. I want to, it's not that I'm hedging, but that I'm just not going to say that this is, I'm not going to say this with no equivocation because you can't actually know that. Yeah. And that, again, emails I've gotten are things that are, it's like, oh, you know what? Like I may have, I didn't consider what it's like to be, you know, a single mom with

three kids. And that maybe it's not, it's easy for them to get up at 6 a.m. or whatever it is. Like, you just realize that you're being flip because your experience is limited. And so I think as I've gone older, gone on and gotten older, I'm negative capability. It It's from Keats, I think. And it's the idea that genius or real intelligence is the ability to hold opposing ideas in your head at the same time. That you don't actually have to simplify things down. You don't have to make them black and white.

You can embrace like paradoxes, right? Like people will go like, oh, you know, in this chapter you're saying this, but over here you're saying this. That's a contradiction. It's like, welcome to the universe where sometimes you have to do this. Yeah. And sometimes the opposite is what's called for. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. In my book, I mean, you've reminded me of something for me. It's like, I talk about the need for routine and spontaneity. Totally. And it's like, in one sense, and I remember tackling him when I was writing because I was like, wait a minute, I'm like, no, but I believe in both. Yeah. And I

believe one leads to the other. Yes. And I believe that there is a space for both. And I, I mean, encouraging people in my own way to embrace polarities more. Yeah. Because I feel like we always like, what is the one way to show this? And I'm like, well, sometimes I can be a fictionist, but sometimes you got to be assertive. And sometimes you got to be this. And I'm like, well, sometimes I can be affectionate, but sometimes you got to be assertive, and sometimes you got to be this. And that is like, you don't have to be every one thing all of the time. Yeah, I think I talked about this in obstacle, like Arthur Ash, his sort of motto is like physically, tightly, mentally loose. And so it's like, isn't that a contradiction? Actually no, that they, they fuel and feed each other. And the world is complicated. I think that's

definitely something that the Eastern philosophers get better is that you're sort of embracing paradoxes and nonsensical sayings and like you're supposed to sit with that. And maybe even get comfortable with the fact that it is irresolvable. Maybe that's the lesson.

Whereas people are like, no, what it, like, because are like, no, what it like, because invariably in interviews, people go like, and what is the five, you know, step framework for overcoming obstacles? And it was like, there isn't one,

there's no obstacles the same. And, you know, no person is the same. I think what there are are fundamental principles or ideas that if you equip yourself with, it will become clear which to use in which situation. But people want, they want like a roadmap. There is no roadmap. No, exactly. When you were writing the book, was there anything, was there most, what was the most intriguing way someone finds stillness that you've experienced, even if not in the book,

but people you've spoken to, like something that you were like, whoa, I didn't like something, you know, skydiving or whatever, like, yeah, yeah, how does that give stillness? So I'm fascinated with Churchill and Churchill wrote a book called Painting as a pastime. And I was like, what? Why would, well, first off, I don't think people think of Churchill as a writer, but that's how he made his living. And, and you don't think like Prime Minister, the guy that stands up to the Nazis, you're like, and he must have loved watercolors. Or I think he was more oil paints. But the point is, like, he has this nervous breakdown after the first world war, and his sister-in-law gives him her children's paint set and says, like, hey, this might help you relax. And he'd always been ambitious,

always had an insane work ethic, always been busy. And this was the first time where he was doing something only for its unsafe. And I was just in London and I went straight from Heathrow to Chartwell before my meeting as I wanted to go see his painting studio. And you're like, oh, this is what kept this guy sane amidst incredible stress, fear, anxiety, responsibility, you know,

people not doing what they're supposed to do. Like he would paint. And so he would talk, he was like the most important thing that a powerful person can have. He said, is like one or two hobbies. He's like, what are your hobbies? And for him, it was painting and writing was sort of one of them. And it was, so he had this, you know, state in the country set.

It was like, it was the opposite of his work, basically, right? And you have to have that. The Prime Minister, a generation or two before a William Gladstone was like, he had this big property. He would just go out and chop down trees. Like, he just liked chopping down trees within acts. And like, it's, I live on a small farm outside Texas, and people, isn't that a lot of work?

And it's like, it is, but it's the opposite of my actual work. And so it's actually very restorative. And so I think the power of hobbies is like by the thing I was most excited to write about. Yeah And so I think the power of hobbies is like, by the thing I was most excited to write about. Yeah, and also sometimes the power of like, I feel like simple quote unquote mundane tasks.

Like the, I remember, you know, when I lived as a monk, like we did so many mundane tasks, like cleaning or potwashing or taking care of the farms or the cows or whatever it was. And it was like a lot of me coming from London and being educated and all the rest of it was just like, this is such a waste of time. I should be reading or studying or teaching or changing the world. I've always been like that.

But then I started to see, and I was forced to do it because they saw value in it. It wasn't just like we need someone to clean stuff. It was like, no, there's value in it for you. Right. There's a cousin story I tell on, no, there's value in it for you. Right. There's a gazelle story I tell in the book, I'm forgetting who it was. But these two students go to the Zen Master, they visit him on his farm and they're like, will you please show us the way of Zen? And he's like, yes, of course, will you just open the farm for me this morning?

Like, do all the farm chores. So they sort of mock the stables and they, you know, milk the cows or they let the animals out. They just go through this whole process. As the sun is coming up and they're going through it and they come back to me and say, you know, like, master, we've opened the farm, like, what is then? And it just goes like that, that manual labor, that experience being outside, experiencing nature, watching the sun come up, that is it. And that's that idea of like chop wood, carry water, like just do the thing. One foot in front of the other, follow the steps.

Don't try to make this into something, just appreciate it for what it is. It's really great. Like, yeah, fixing fences on my farm, going out to feed the cows, going out of walk, just watching the animals. Like that is the experience, right? And it's so the opposite of sitting at your computer,

answering emails that it's really, even if it's stressful, even if it's hard work, even if it's exhausting, it restores the mind in a different way. That maybe it's like, if I just went and sat, all my mind might be doing this, thinking about those the things that I left at the computer,

whereas when I'm doing the task, it forces you to become so present and lose, and you can't think about anything else. Yeah. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. I know sometimes you guys ask what podcasts I listen to one of my great friends in podcasting is Jordan Harbinger who I'm talking to right now.

I was curious Jordan, how many people do you think you've interviewed? It's got to be about a thousand at this point. And what do you think the average length of those interviews is? the average length of those interviews is. It's like an hour or 50, 55 minutes. Something like that. You've done a thousand hours minimum of actual sort of on camera, on audio interview, plus all the prep. So what do you think? 10,000, you've done your 10,000 hours by this point?

Yeah, I mean, that's that concept's been debunked essentially, right? That number. But yeah, I've definitely done close to that. And if you count the interviews that I've been on been debunked essentially, right? That number. But yeah, I've definitely done close to that. And if you count the interviews that I've been on on other people's shows, is any sort of practice for interviewing at all or content creation, then it's, yeah, it's well in , well in excess of it.

What do you think you've learned? Like what's the thing you've learned the most? What's funny is everybody goes, wow, what are these productivity tips? What are all these great, amazing people that you have on the Jordan Harbinger Show, haven't come in? And you'd be surprised. A lot of people think it's like, oh, they've got all these cool systems and tricks and like they, it's all this Tim Ferriss stuff, which is great. But at the end of the day, what most of them do is they plan their day in advance, like a week before or the day before they get enough sleep. They go outside and go walking

or go for a swim when they feel like they're just convibrated or unable to focus. And I'm like, okay, but you're a billionaire. What's the secret? And he's like, I read a lot of books, you know, I get up early and I'm like, no, no, but the secret secret that you only get when you have a billion dollars. And it's all the same stuff that you can do when you're a college student. You have no money. It's like all this stuff is for the... I love that. The secret is there's no secret. You can check out the Jordan Harbinger podcast.

I've been on it once, twice. I don't even remember how many times. Oh, God, it's probably like four times over years. It's got to be. You've had too many. Too many. Well, you could start there. Jordan shows awesome.

Check it out. Being in the, now that you mentioned presence, being present is, you know, we've heard it a lot. People have talked about a lot, the power of now. I mean, it's in all the stoic and Vedic texts too, like of being in the moment. Like, what's your favorite way of being present or what is your favorite way of explaining to people what that genuinely means or what it means to you?

Yeah. I was talking about Robert earlier. When I was thinking about becoming a writer, I had this sort of like year left on basically I had to stay in American peril for another year. I remember that. And he was like, so he's like,

he's like, there's two kinds of time in life. There's like a lifetime and dead time. Dead time is when you're like, check out. Here's waiting for things to happen. You know, just like burning the days basically. And he's like, a live time is like, what will you make of this? Right? And so for me, what I always, I always, I always actually wrote, I have a note card on my wall that I wrote, you know, seven or eight years ago now that just says, a live time versus dead time question mark. And I think about that, like what I'm, what I'm thinking about

is like, is this going to be live time or a dead time for me? So, like, yeah, yesterday I'm flying here, planes delayed, I've got a dinner that like, you know, Ty would know, I gotta get my rental car, drive, go to the dinner, don't wanna be late, like LA traffic, and you can spy or really quickly, like, this, this, gotta, and then what you're doing is not sitting in the chair that you're in,

reading a book or FaceTiming with someone that you like or just not doing anything. Like what you're not doing is being where you are. And so I try to like always, I try to always come back to the present what I try to remind myself is like this moment is enough. Like you don't, you don't actually have to be doing anything else. Like you don't have to go to that thing later.

You don't have to be on time. Like you don't have, you just have to be here. Totally. And it's not something you intellectually know and then automatically do. It actually has to be kind of like a mantra in your life that you're repeating all the time. That's why I have it on my wall too. You know, because it's so easy to forget. So easy to forget. And the funny thing is, it actually drains so much energy when you live

in the future. Like totally. If you're constantly planning or like, what I've got to do new next, or if I'm doing this podcast and thinking about all the things I have to do now, and which I've not been thinking about until this point where now I'm thinking about it. And I just looked at all the slips I'm signing for my book right now. The stack. Are you doing pages? Yeah, there's the inserts. And so it's like, now that I've looked at that, and I'm like, when I start thinking about

all of a sudden, I'm anxious because I know how many I have to get through as opposed to when I was just sitting here and being present. Totally. Totally. And then like what I remind myself is that it's arrogance. Like like doing an interview is hard, you know, writing a book is really hard. You know, driving is hard. Hitting a hitting a pitch and major league baseball is hard. The idea that you are so good at this that you can do it while not 100% being focused. I just remember, like that is arrogant.

Like it is too, like you are competing, like I said to myself, like you're competing against the best writers in the world and you're competing against that kid, man or woman who wants to break in more than anything. The idea that you're so good and that people love you so much that you can do this with only 37% focus is arrogant and that's when you lose. That is a great. You know what I mean? I love that point. That is brilliant. Wow. I never looked at it like that. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's fun

on. I get it. Like in baseball, you have 400 milliseconds to decide and swing at a pitch. The idea that you can be thinking about your last one or your next one in that moment is insane, right? It's insane, yeah. Like, I think, you know, now we ask this question because we're so politically charged, we ask, they would go, if you win, are you gonna go to the White House?

Are you gonna accept it? And it's like, you should not be thinking about that at all. Like you should not even have, it should not even be a question. Like cross that bridge when you come to it. Think about the fact that like, you're in the Super Bowl tomorrow. And the other team wants it really bad too.

So the idea that you can spend one millisecond not focusing is nuts. That is brilliant. I love that. I'm never gonna forget that. That's awesome. No, no, no, that's such a unique point of view. And yeah, I love that.

That's brilliant. And then I think it's not just personal success, right? Because I think what you talk about a lot is like, how do you apply this thing to relationship? Like the idea that like your wife is loves you so much that you can only be 80% present, you know, or that your kid is, your kid can do with, with 32% of a father. Like, you know, it's like you promised to be there. Yeah. And the idea that you can do this and be on your phone or you can do this and be mulling over your meeting tomorrow

or whatever, like you're stealing that from someone. Yeah. Now, when you talk about focus in that way, though, I feel like, I feel like stillness and silence and all these kind of like, they're so rare now. Yeah. Sure. And so we're almost scared of them. Like we're scared of what's rare. Yeah, of course.

And we get scared of things that we don't do often. And so like, when people talk about like, when you have an awkward silence, like, there are no silences in this conversation because it's genuinely back and forth. But if I didn't know what to say, I would be silent. But if you did that in a date scenario, if you did that in a interview, like, I remember, yeah, you've just, but when I was interviewing for a role in my company, I was interviewing people and none of them would stop to think.

Yeah. Because I think they expected to have an answer straight away and I had one person who would stop and say, can I think about that for a moment? Yeah. That's always so impressive. Yeah. Yeah. And I was so impressed. I hired that person. And and when I hired them, I was so scared because I thought two things, either they're really

stupid or they're really smart. And thankfully they ended up being really smart. Right. But it was like that point of just like, we're so scared of stillness and silence. What have you, have you seen that? Have you noticed that? Yeah, yeah. I think we're afraid of what the silence is going to reveal.

Like, I think we're afraid to look in the mirror. So we distract ourselves. Do you know what I mean? Like, we know that the silence will reveal the emptiness, right? And so that's why we're always doing, doing, doing, talking, talking, talking. Listen, like the amount of people I know that it's like, they're listening to audio books, like tweeting, watch it, like just like can you just sit there? Like sometimes I'll remind my, oh yeah I'll get somewhere early and I'm just gonna sit here. Like I'm not gonna do anything, I'm just gonna sit here. And actually yeah, like that the nothing is the something is hard for people to do. You just realize people are like, if I turn my mind off for two seconds,

I might realize that I hate my job or that this relationship is over, and I gotta leave it. Or we're afraid of the truth that we're afraid of the truths that we're gonna find out. And so that's why people are glued to the television, glued to their phone, glued to consuming, consuming, consuming, so they don't have to create,

they don't have to face, they don't have to think. And that is, I think, yeah, that's the problem of our time. Yeah, and that's the mistake, too, because it numbs us from the reality that we're time. Yeah. And that's the mistake too, because it numbs us from the reality that we're experiencing. Yeah. And then five, 10, 15 years down the line, you're now like, oh, I should have known this before. Well, I talk a little bit in the book about like the Cuban Missile Crisis that's like, that happens over 13 days. Just the idea of like allowing that to happen over 13 days, like now would be like, I've got a tweet out of response, like right now,

you know, like just the idea of letting something unfold, going like, I'm not sure I have all the information. You know, like Kennedy's expression is like, I want to use time as a tool, but not as a couch. So you're not like, it's not silence, it's not retreating, it's not thinking, because you're afraid of facing it. It's that you're like, no, I'm gonna deal with this,

but I don't wanna deal with it like half-cocked or only partially informed. And so having the discipline, but also the confidence to do that is really important. And I think, so I think at the end of the day, a lot of these emotional reactions, a lot of these instantaneous reactions, a lot of the chatter is rooted in like insecurity

and fear, anxiety, and actually the more... Like, if you walked into a martial arts studio right now, the highest ranked person would be the slowest moving, the most chill, the most welcoming, you know? And it's like the newbie who's like all wired and aggressive and, you know, and so I think ideally as you get better, you should be getting more chill. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

That's time as a tool, not as a couch. So that's genius. Yeah. That's brilliant. That makes so much sense because most of us use time as a couch when we're scared of something. Yeah. We're like, I'm not going to think about it or not going to talk about it for like days

sometimes or procrastinating or overthinking. Yeah, and we're not using time as a tool either. So we're like, I have everything I need to know. I'm ready to go. But it's like, actually, did you really study this? Did you ask for all the advice that you can? Did you walk through what could go wrong? Did you get information from people who disagree with you?

Have you actually done that? I would say most of the conflicts I've gotten in, professionally, creatively, it came from me rushing in. I'm thinkingly escalated or you know pushed ahead when like maybe I could have ignored it. Or maybe I could have slept on it or maybe I could have written the email, deleted it and rewritten the email. You know like Lincoln was famous, he would he would write these letters. Like you know someone would piss him off and we're doing him write He'd write this like, you're the, he would just light them up and then he'd put it in his desk and he'd never send it, you know? And just the, just that idea of like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to say what I'm going to do it, but I'm going to wait before I send it. Yeah. And yeah, just not doing it out of anger. Not that people think that the Stokes didn't have emotions.

Yeah. That's not what it is at all, because the Stokes are human. The Stokes are like, no amount of wisdom can reduce, can eliminate our human impulses. He's like, no amount of training can make you not blush, right? Or not cold, or not feel adrenaline. But what the Stoke is striving to do is not be driven by those emotions when they make decisions.

So it's not that you wouldn't lust after something. It's like, are you gonna blow up your life for five minutes with a stranger, right? It's not, should you strive to be the best in your sport or in your field, but it's, are you gonna do it because you love it, not because you're trying to prove your dad wrong? Or, you know, like, yeah.

Just doing it from a place that's not, the Stoics, now we're talking, I was like, find your passion. The Stoics were like, passions are bad. You know, passions are like these demons that possess us and they, so I got not doing that. What I found in most of our emotions, because a lot of people would be like,

oh, if I meditate, do I get rid of stress completely? And I was just like, you know, one of our teachers, like thousands of years ago, there's a teacher named Yamuna Charian, he would talk about, he was a renunciate. So he would, and he was free from sex life. So, you know, and his, he would always say like, I have a, it's,

it's not that I never have a thought of sex or lust. Yeah. He was just that I have my response to it. And his response is now shortening the time of how long he entertains that feeling. Yeah, I think your frangles, like, there's stimulus and there's response. What you're trying to train is that space between those two. And I think early on, there's no space like this. If you can add a half second, do you know what I mean? To just even, like, to just even be like, no, I'm not going to do that. Or I'm going to do it this way instead. Or maybe I'll do tomorrow. Like, you write the letter, but do you have to send you write the letter because you're so angry, you're going to go do, but do you have the control an hour later not to put in the mail? Yeah. So my, my thing with that is I'm always just like, I need to sleep on stuff.

Yes. I need to take the day, think about it, stretch that moment out. Totally. Because yeah, your initial reaction is usually fueled by ego or, you know, if you're responding to something or reacting to something, yeah. And I see that myself all the time, but you have to give yourself that space to allow you to feel it. Give yourself that space to feel the fear if that's what it is. Yeah. And then yeah, I love that. I love that. And today we're just in this send culture.

Right. That's the challenge. I don't even think about sending a million messages a day. Yeah. And Sena, because the point is like, look, it's okay to be afraid. It's okay to grieve when you lose someone. Of course. But it's like a year later, if you're still crippled by that thing, you've got to do some work to walk through to pro.

So it's like, I think Miss Simtileb was, it's not about the elimination of emotions. It's about the domestication of them. A dog is the same as a wolf, but it's been trained and some of those things have been bred out of them to a level that allows them to function in society. But still a little bit of that wild animal in there, you got to keep it on the chain. Yeah, I love that. Let's dive into. We've been talking about for all of you who are listening

and watching and loving this conversation. Stillness is the key by Ryan Holiday. It's already number one New York Times best seller. So make sure you go grab the book. But there were a few pages that I just turned in and I want to I remember we did this for the daily story too. The best things about Ryan's book is they're just, he's a great storyteller. The stories are unique, fresh. You might never, I've never heard any of their stories about Churchill and was it Gladstone? Yeah.

Yeah, that I ever before. And so, yeah, he's a great storyteller. But there's this one that I picked on. You can either tell the story or people can read it in the book. But it's the story you tell from the Let Go chapter. It kicks off the Let Go chapter. And you talk about the story that

Kenzo once told of his student. Yeah. If people haven't read the Zen Zen in the art of art, it's incredible. But like, you know, he's talking about how when he would train his students, he was like, don't even think about hitting the target. Just think about form, right? Like get lost in the form, get lost in the process. And that's actually something I kind of try to focus on my books is like, like, okay, whenever, and I know you have a book coming out so that we can talk about this a little bit, whenever I hear someone have a sales goal for their book, I'm like, you're lost, you know, like you, you you've already thought about this the wrong way because at the very best, your goal should

be to sell in unlimited, like the idea that you're like a million copies is success means you've got like, because what if you sell zero copies, but you change the world? What if you sell 10 million copies and then it's disproved? You know, like, it's not about that. It's not about the end state.

It's about the process, right? It's about the impact. It's about doing it right, because that's all that you control. And so we think that it's all about goals. And and certainly there are people who would be improved by having goals because they leave they lead an aimless life, but actually for a really ambitious talented people, it's actually about removing goals because those are outcome oriented and focusing internally on process and form and and and and presence, especially with something like archery where archery is kind of like golf where like the harder you try the worst you do at it because you've instead of being present you're thinking about all these other things. And so yeah yeah, he would like, he'd be like, bad shot, forget it. Good shot, definitely forget.

Like, the form, the form, the form, and it's smooth and slow and, and, and, and effortlessness. That's actually what you're trying to get to. And I think writing is like that music is like that. Acting is like, the harder you're trying to be a good actor, the worse of an actor you are. Yeah, yeah, you have to get lost in it. Yeah, totally. And that was I've recently started.

I got a tennis coach recently. Yeah, tennis also. Yeah. So tennis was something that I used to play a lot as a kid and a teenager, but never was trained. Yeah. And I picked it up and I'm competitive so I could play. But then when I went to get trained, I was like, no, I want to do it properly. Yeah. So I was it up and I'm competitive so I could play.

But then when I went to get trained, I was like, no, I want to do it properly. So I was like, I don't, I don't want to pretend I can play. And so we've trained now for the last four weekends. We have not played a game of tennis yet. Right. Right. So he's just getting my form right. And it's the same.

He actually doesn't care where the ball ends up on the other side. It's just all about my form and the swing. And we're doing back hands and four hands. And it's so beautiful. Like it's actually such a fun way of learning. Yeah. But I can imagine if I was taught that as a kid, I would have been like, I just want to play the game. Right. No, there's a famous story about Lambert. And he walks in. He's like, this is the green Bay Packer. So obviously they're all great football players. And he opens the season with like gentlemen, this is a football. You know, like he starts at so the basic level.

But it's like, that's actually where we need to focus. Tell you is, we have all this stuff in our head. And if you're, if you're running down the field thinking, where's my route? What should I be doing? What did coach say? You are doing it the wrong way. You got to get actually out of that and into your body and into the process and into the form. Yeah, the time when I really felt that was a couple of years ago, two, three years ago, I tested like seven different business strategies. Okay. So seven different businesses, ideas, concepts, revenue streams, whatever you want to call it. And the interesting was that all seven of them worked financially, but I only enjoyed four of them in the process. So financially, all seven worked. They all reaped rewards. They all made money. But actually only four of them actually made me feel happy when I was doing this.

And so I remember going, I'm never doing those other three things ever again. And that might seem like a basic decision, but most people do the exact opposite. They're like, which of the seven made the most money to actually the right ones to do? Yeah. But I know that. And I still say, now, like, I, the biggest satisfaction for me today is I get to wake up and do what I love every day. Like to me, that's just like, sure, it's life changing. And you know, I work with and coach and I'm so I'm sure you do too. So many people who literally will come to me and just like, it's life changing. And I work with and coach and I'm sure you do too.

So many people who literally will come to me and be like, I just built this billion dollar business in 12 years, but I wasted 12 years in my life where I didn't enjoy it. Well, one of the things that was really helpful to me because I built this company where we work with authors and do ghost writing and help build sort of the stuff we're talking about for people.

And I kept noticing over and over again that the people that were coming to me had like built. Yeah, billion dollar companies, huge brands, they've done this thing. And it was like, wait, all they want to do is be what I get to do, right? All they built this thing that's way harder to do than what I do. And now they want it. And so I was like, I have to make sure it's so easy to get away from that thing because you have all these other opportunities. It's like, wait, if the person becomes a billionaire and what they really want to do is write for a living, and I am lucky enough to write for a living

without having had to be a billionaire, I got to make sure I protect that purity and that space and that privilege to do that thing that I have found what I love and not be tempted away from it by what's more exciting, what's more lucrative, you know, what's more, you know, the bigger ego hit, whatever. Yeah, exactly.

And I think those are such, they're such like a bliminoleleures and like, you know, just everything we see and you go for the shining objects or the platform or the title or whatever it may be. I just said that it was, it's really, I'm really happy hearing from you. You've written what nine books now? Yeah, nine or 10. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it's like, I'm happy hearing it from you because I said the same thing to my team and because we wrote a chapter on Process and not result to based on the bug with Giddok, they use and so when I was writing that I was I was I was explaining that to my team I was like I'm not writing this trying to be a New York Times best seller or Wall Street. I was like that's not I was trying to explain the concept through my own Process like I'm trying to make sure we write the best book we possibly can write and that I absolutely love and that I'm enjoying while I'm doing it. And look, you have to do that because it's inherently unpredictable,

right? Like, let's say, let's say eight of my first nine books did not appear on the Times list. And they probably sold enough copies to because the world is in fair because somebody made a mistake because somebody had a vendetta. I don't know why. But like, like, is that going to determine success for me? Then I've just handed over my sanity, my happiness, my success to an outside entity. And, and, and then conversely, let's say you do get it. Well, what if I'd gotten it, but actually I knew deep down the book was no good, right? Or that I, or plagiarized or had someone write it for me, or that I bought my way onto the list, what you can do, right? Like I'm prefacing or preferring an outcome

to process and missing the entire point. Totally, totally. And as I think I messaged you when I saw the news that you now share something in common with Leonardo DiCaprio, where it's like, the guys have to wait so long to get an Oscar. Well, look, the other thing, it's like three weeks after I hit it or four weeks after I hit it, like Donald Trump Jr. took the number one spot. So it's like, does it matter? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, like, you also have to remind yourself that like, it doesn't actually matter. It's just a piece of paper. It's just a random accomplishment.

How many people have done it before you? How many people will do it after you? If it was meaningless when you were deprived of it, also have to remind yourself, it doesn't really matter when you get it. It's just extra. Yeah, I love that. I'm so aligned with that.

And yeah, let that blow your mind if it takes a bit of time because I think it does take a bit of time to we're always trying to move away from pain because we think we have to move closer to pleasure. Yes. When actually, you mean different, the stokes are in difference. Correct. Yeah. And and in Vedic terms, it's neutrality. Yes. Like it's the same, same thing, but different. Yeah, just that neutrality in happiness and distress, in fame and infamy, in, so, in one of the things. So like that indifference can feel like, okay, does nothing matters at nihilism? And one of the way the still sort of navigate that, which I love, Senna could go, but there's also preferred indifference, like not indifference C, E, T, S, right? There's things you are, you are indifferent to, but you would prefer, right? So it's like it's better to be tall, then sure.

It's better to be rich, then poor, or whatever. It's better to hit the list, first, not hit the list, but you also still have to not let it affect you either way, right? And realizing that, yeah, okay, it's good to get it, but it can't be everything to get it. I lived in New Orleans and I was writing my first book in the end of this word that I loved there. Land, yeah, do you know this word?

No, I don't know. It means like the 13th donut. It means like the extra, like, so you buy 12 donuts and they throw in an extra donut. You're like, you paid for 12, you get 12. Great. Right. If you got 11, you'd say, Hey, you owe me one. But like, it's the extra. It's like the cream. It's the, it's the, it's the bonus. Yeah. And so, so for me, it's not that like, I didn't care that I hit number one.

It's not that I don't care that my books have sold copies that I've got to do cool things. It's been lucrative. It's that that is extra on top of that I enjoy doing the work that I get to, you know, I get to do my passion that I know, you know, it's extra on top. And then that way you can take it or leave it. Yeah, no, I love that. Okay, this is from the chapter called Heal the Inner Child, which I thought was fascinating because I've never heard you talk about that before. I don't feel

like I'm yeah, I don't think I've really heard you mention that. Tell me where that idea sparked from for this chapter and why it was such a focus. I mean, part of it, like, to be perfectly honest from like therapy, right? Like you realize that a lot of the really strong reactions and feelings and things that you have are not you as an adult. They're you at whatever age you're stuck in, right? So it's you the 13 year old whose parents got divorced. It's you the 11 year old who is humiliated in front of math class, right? Or it's you, the six-year-old who had to wear glasses and you didn't like it. Or, you know, we have, we all have experienced trauma and pain and deficiencies and problems. And there's a part of us that is that age that needs, that needed something then that we didn't get.

And now we have to do the work to parent that inner child because yeah, an 11 year old or an arrogant 17 year old is not going to cut it in the world of publishing, right? Because like, you're going to have to be an adult, you're going to have to be the bigger person, you're going to have to be responsible, you're going to have to be mature. And so, just the act of deciding to parent that inner child, to reassure them, to comfort them, to be what you didn't get from the people who should have done it when you were that age is really important. And if you don't have that, if you cannot settle that inner child, you will not have

stillness, you will not have success, or you will end up destroying that success because you're not capable, you're not mature enough to deal with it. Yeah. And so, yeah, like, like, you're not going to meditate your way into healing that inner child. Like, you got to go to therapy or you got to have some unpleasant conversations, you got to look in the mirror, you got to do some work there. But, but yeah, I think it's an important

part of getting better and getting healthy. Yeah, I recorded a podcast last year called why we need to develop the emotional skills our parents didn't have. And it was always, it's also about that compassion that when you go through that process of building those skills, you realize how hard it is. Oh, totally it is and to display it and to express it and for people to feel it and to be able to learn how to do it for yourself. And I think that's what what therapy or meditation really is is your ability to parent yourself, your ability to give yourself what you feel you need from others. Yes. And becoming aware and being specific about what that is. And just making sure your life is not ruled by these emotional reactions or issues that it's not your fault that you have them, but it is your fault if you don't deal with that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and it'll blow. If you don't, it'll blow up your marriage, it'll blow up your work, it'll blow up your, you know, it'll just make your life not as good as it can be. And yeah, taking the time to do that, like inner work is really, really important. Yeah, absolutely. So Ryan, we've got these two segments now that we end with. You're probably, you're the only second person after my wife to have done this. Okay. So it'll be fun to do it. It's called fill in the blanks. Okay. So you have to end the sentence. You can do it with more than one word, but you end the sentence. So good writing is never easy.

Stillness is similar to, well, I would say nothing, right? It's a singular. What I love about stillness is that like, it's very hard to define, but everyone knows what it is. You know what I mean? Like everyone's experienced it might have been a,

for me, you know, not for me, but for one person, it was, you know, watching the snowfall for the other, it was playing the piano and for the other, it was, you know, who knows, right? It's a totally different thing. But it is this singular, unique thing that what I love about it is that it appears in every philosophical school and religion. They're very few things that that's true for. That's true. Absolutely. I love that.

Ryan Holiday loves. Family work, like family writing, like family craft, and life. Having a farm helps me relax disconnect and be active. I have no tolerance for too many things and unfortunately, you know, the expression of suffering fools like I have I have problems realizing like not everyone holds themselves to my standards and that they're my standards and it's totally unfair to expect other people to live up to a promise they never made. Yeah, I've always found that hard. I've always, I can totally relate to that one for sure.

And I've been blown away and there's probably only two people in the world who are among teachers that I know that don't have that. Yeah. And when they first displayed that, I was just like, wow, like they're like the hardest working that made the most sacrifice, they meditate for the longest time, they wake up the earliest, they do more than everyone. Yeah, they do have not, do not have that expectation. That was Kobe's big problem, right? Yeah. It's like he couldn't understand that not everyone was Kobe, that they were great,

but not at was Kobe. That they were great, but not at his level. And I think great leaders figure out how to work with people who are not like them. Yeah. And it's hard. I think that takes the most. Totally. Most strength. Okay. That was good. You performed really well. That was awesome. All right. So we end every interview with the final five, which is our rapid five quick fire rounds. These are one word to one sentence on. They're a bit deeper than the other one. The last ones are fun. So this is what question do you ask yourself the most? Does this matter? Okay, the book you're most proud of and why?

I actually think in Spiracies my best book, because it was most... One of you is that I haven't read. It the most outside my comfort zone It was the it was and weirdly has done the worst and so I also love that like I can be proud of it for intrinsic reasons Yeah, that is the funny thing about that is that's how I feel about some of my favorite videos of course I think every creative person is like you, you have to learn how to separate best from most popular because they're not the same. They're not the same. Absolutely, yeah, I agree with you. Okay, question number three,

what question do you wish people asked you more often? I never have a good answer to that question. Ah, I understand. Okay. I just don't think about questions that I should be asked. Oh great. Because your fourth question would have been, I would have asked you that question.

Okay. If you could create a law based on the teaching of land for the world to follow, what would it be? That's really good. I don't know and it was sort of mandating some things or defeat the purpose of it, but like, man, that's really good. Thank you, Tom. I think you don't.

I was talking to a shocker smart who's the coach at UT, the basketball coach. He's awesome. He's very zen, very philosophical. He's saying that he works as a coach. He never criticizes players for something that's not in their control. So like, it's not whether the shot goes in or not. It's whether it was a good shot to take or not, right? And so a lot of times in society who try to hold people accountable for the part after

the ball has left their fingers, you know? And so maybe there's something about like sort of going like, hey, was this a good idea at the time you did it, then you're off the hook. Was this obviously bad when you made the decision, okay, now actually we're going to come down with on you with full weight, even if it worked out. You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe there's something there. No, that's brilliant. I love that. I don't know how you build a law around it, but that is yeah, that's I fully believe that. I think we're so we so try and either predict how a

decision is going to pan out. Yeah. And that stops us from making a good decision right now. Yeah. Or when the decision goes wrong, we stop blaming the time that we made it. Yes. And like, oh, you shouldn't have told me to do that. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah, that's powerful.

I really like that. Yeah. Was it a good shot to take? Yes. Yeah, that's really because look, you know, you, a great cheater is only going to shoot 50 or 60% from the field. Yeah. So it's going to miss a certain percentage of the time.

But if they don't take the shot, they're not going to make it. So how do you, how do you, it's easy to yell at them for missing. Yeah. It's, it's, it's harder to go. You'll get it next time. Yeah. Exactly. Or you made the right decision there.

Yes. Or you made the wrong, it wasn't the, it wasn't a, a mad that it didn't go in. Yeah. I'm actually more upset by the fact that wasn't a, it wasn't a mad that it didn't go in. Yeah. I'm actually more upset by the fact that you took a, you went for a three point, where there's, there's like a famous story about John Wooden where like a cream of Roger Barr or something made like a behind the back pass

worked out great, you know, worked out perfectly. And he was like, I'm mad at you because, you know, a behind the back pass, you know, works 70% of the time, a chess pass in that scenario works 70% of the time, chest pass in that scenario works 80% of the time. So the fact that you made the behind the back pass and it worked statistically does not make that a good decision or not.

You actually made the wrong decision even though you got the right outcome. Conversely, if you made the chest pass and it hadn't worked out, not, that doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, that's yeah, that's a fun one. I like that.

Okay, fifth and final question of the final five is what's been your biggest personal lesson in the last 12 months? The reason I wrote stillness was realizing like all the best moments in my life had some kind of stillness in them and then going, why am I content for that to happen accidentally? Right? So, yeah, sure, there's a certain amount of sort of consciously seeking something out can, the, the preview of it. But it's more like,

how am I just going to make sure that I'm not making this thing that I, I actually want X, but are my decisions making X more or less likely? You know, I'm going, okay, so stillness is the goal. That's the, that's what the aim, that's what success is. But am I making decisions that create more or less room for stillness? And so just that, oh yeah, all the great moments are like this, rather than just sort of hoping that you accidentally get what you want. That's been big for me. hoping that you accidentally get what you want. That's been big for me.

Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple of years we've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it,

and this isn't to sell anything. Just one and say, thank you. Hey, Prime Members. You can listen to the Daily Stoke, early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.