The Daily Stoic - Jeremy Jones on Quieting the Mind and Confronting Fear with Snowboarding

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

Ryan speaks with snowboarder Jeremy Jones about his new book The Art of Shralpanism: Lessons from the Mountains, why having discipline on the mountain saves lives, the relationship between courage and fear when approaching the dangers of snowboarding, and more.Jeremy Jones is an American professional snowboarder,businessman, author and filmmaker. He is the founder of Jones Snowboards and the co-founder of Protect Our Winters, a nonprofit that works to reduce the effects of climate change. In 2012, Jeremy was picked by National Geographic as one of the Adventurer’s of the Year. You can find Jeremy’s work, including his books and the films that he makes about his snowboarding adventures (a childhood favorite of Ryan’s), on his website: www.jonessnowboards.com, and on Instagram and Twitter @jeremyjones.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stokes. Something to help you live up to those four Stoke virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have. Here on the weekend when you have a

little bit more space when things have slowed down be sure to take some time to think to go for a walk to sit with your journal and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi I'm David Brown the host of Wendery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday.

Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I grew up snowboarding. I guess skiing at first, I got into snowboarding maybe like fifth or sixth grade. I just absolutely loved it. I would do it all the time. It was, I don't know, maybe the first, like I don't think I wanted to be a professional baseball player, basketball player. I guess I wasn't really good enough at those sports and

running these in the sport, many people dream of being a pro at, but I wanted to be a pro snowboarder. I loved it so much. And I think actually I was thinking about this the other day. The first website I ever made was a snowboarding fan website on homestead.com, which was some free web design thing I learned about as a kid. I just fell in love with this whole world. That's actually how I first heard about today's guest many, many, many years ago, so it's a complete and total honor for me to interview Jeremy Jones today. Jeremy's a professional snowboarder and businessman. He's a founder of Jones Snowboards. In addition to creating and growing his own company, he's made some of the most badass snowboarding films

of all time. In 2012, he was one of National Geographic's adventurers of the year. And he's the co-founder of a nonprofit called Protect Our Winters, which works to reduce the effects of global climate change by means of education, activism, and community-based projects. And speaking of freak changes in the weather, actually the last time I was able to go snowboarding was almost two years ago now, when this freak storm came to Texas and our ridiculous power grid here was not at all up for the

task. And my farm was blanketed with almost six inches of snow, three, four, five, six inches of snow in some places. And I was snowboarding on the hills behind my house in front of my cows. I think I posted an Instagram video if you go way back and see it. And then my wife drove me around on the ATV while I snowboarded behind it. It was a surreal experience. And it brought back a flood of memories and love about the stuff. And first time I'd gotten on the snowboard, which had sat in my garage since I was in college maybe. Anyways, this was a conversation I was really excited

to have Jeremy's new book, The Art of Schraubinism, Lessons From the Mountains. It was released in October 2022. It's a great book. I loved it. We're gonna go through it in the interview. You can follow him on Twitter and Instagram at Jeremy Jones and for his Protect Our Winters Group,

at Protect Our Winters, JonesSnowBoards.com. I think you're really going to like this one. Enjoy. Is it snowing there yet? Yeah, we got snow on the ground. We had a good storm a couple of weeks ago, and then now we were looking at a couple feet starting tomorrow Nice, that's very exciting

Do you make it? I know you grew up in Sacramento. Do you still family out here? I do I haven't been in a while But but I grew up snowboarding at home with almost every weekend as a kid Sweet that's it, man. And when was the last time you got on snow? Well, it's snowed here about two years ago when we had this crazy, this crazy freak storm that knocked out the power grid.

So I was snowboarding at my farm in Texas, which I never thought would be possible. But it's been several years, maybe like 10 years, at least since I've done anything serious. Right on, well, if you make it this way, let me know. I would love that. I don't know what happened. I loved it so much and then it's just become something

that I don't know. I don't know. I gotta get the kids into it is really what I have to do. Well, what I've spent my life snowboarding, but the kid phase of the snowboarding has just been incredible and it's highlighted the full value of the sport. Just because you're out there and it's not a parent kid scenario,

it's like your partners. Right, right. Yeah, and it probably equalizes in a bit, like, you and your kids can't run at the same speed, but you could ski and snowboard it roughly the same speed. It's like being in the water, it kind of like equalizes the gravity and the age of it in a weird way.

Absolutely. Well, I was actually thinking about snowboarding recently. I was thinking about, obviously, you know, I wrote this book about stillness, and I was thinking of things. I was trying to think of things that embody what stillness is to me. And one of them that jumped out at me is like the experience of first tracks in powder. There's just something totally unlike it. There's nothing like it in the world,

like getting first tracks on a nice run. Yeah, and I think about if I was to describe that to someone who never knew what snow was and explain the snow falling and Covering the landscape and then you get into the different layers of it from the avalanche perspective and then It's like it's taking flight and we're really, snow is something like 90% air so it is the closest thing you can come to flying and it's also kind of idiot-skied to present moment because you are forced to be there and I think as I look at it and go, man, I am as hooked

on it as I've ever been, I've been doing this for almost 40 years now. And what I've come to terms with, I think it's just a tool to become really present and tapped in with nature. Well, you know, it's interesting because when you swim, you get that feeling, right? You're immersed in the water. You're totally present. You can't hear things. It's this kind of magical experience.

But what's interesting about it is swimming, there's a reason biologically or evolutionarily, we have that experience. People have been swimming for millions of years, or thousands of years, whatever you want to say. But what's interesting about fresh tracks is that it feels totally natural and you're tapping into this primal thing. And yet people have

really only been able to do it for not that long. Yeah, totally. And it's also it's fleeting. It's a you know, it's not an infinite resource. And so one of the things I have a poem in the book send well you can. Because if you're healthy, you have good snow. It's stable. It's time to drop everything and take advantage of this incredible gift. Mother nature has given us. No, that's true, right? The experience of like you went to bed, you know, one of those storms in Tahoe

for instance, you went to bed. It was snowing a little bit, and then you wake up in the morning, and there's like six inches or 10 inches of fresh snow. And you know, like, I have to get out there, I have to get up early, I have to get out there fast because this won't last. There's something ephemeral to powder too

that I mean, yeah, you can find pockets of it here or there, but you know, like, if you don't get out there, it's not gonna be the same. Somebody else is gonna get it. And at the very minimum, the sun's gonna get it. Yeah, and that's where it's like, that's a time to crack and get up early. I mean, where it's never spoken in the mountains,

I wish I slept in a little bit later. And so it's hard, but I like to say that difference between waking up at, say, six in the morning and four in the morning is five minutes. The difference between waking up at four in the morning and three in the morning is no difference. So that's one thing that's evolved is really getting out there early and I mean there is no greater joy for me anyways is to be skinning in the dark and then be up on the mountains and there's a run that we really love, rate over Emerald Bay Lake Tahoe and it gets the first light and dropping in as the sun is rising.

I mean, it's if there's such a thing as having honor, if that is it. Yeah. I mean, what look, one of the resorts is called heavenly for a reason. Absolutely. No, it's, there's a Hemingway quote I like. He talks about getting up in the morning and writing when it's cool, but he said, and he says, you warm as you write, which I think is another part of a sort of getting up early. It's cold, it just snowed or whatever.

Not only obviously you're, you're beating the sun a little bit so the sun's coming up that you're warming from that, but then it's, it's the, the getting moving, getting out there, doing the thing. The paradox of skiing and snowboarding is how fucking hot you get, you know, doing this thing that is by definition freezing cold. Yeah, and in the backcountry, it's, you know, there's a saying you sweat, you die. So temperature regulation is an art form and it's probably the biggest evolution I've had in my snowboarding is figuring out how to dress. So when I start climbing up the mountain,

I don't have to readjust. And because it's not about how fast you go, it's how long you stop. So if you can just set the fed, fueled up, hydrated, and start walking, you can make a huge cover, huge distances while moving really slow. Yeah, you know, I was fascinated by the book, which I loved, and I went through. When I was growing up, it's no more than I'm sure,

even more so in the early days when you were, you know, sort of pioneering this sport, it was like a lot of sports, not super serious at first, right? And it's been interesting watching it evolve into a discipline, these are professional athletes, like any other professional sport. But like I was struck by how much your book was really about discipline, right?

In different ways, not just a physical discipline, but the mental discipline. Basically, this whole book is like a set of rules for yourself that you have evolved over the years. So you can have fun, so you can do it at a high level, and also not die. Yeah, I mean, the reality is that going into untouched mountains covered in deep snow is incredibly dangerous. There's fear mongering we see in the world and headlines. It's all about to be really scary grabbing headlines.

When it comes to mountains, the danger is real. I mean, I've lost dozens of friends in the mountains and one bad call can erase a lifetime of good calls. And so there's this mix that's in the book where you have the tactical skills needed to read the snow and stuff. But the reality is, is we continue to lose so-called experts in the mountains every year.

And so a lot in the book is I'm wrestling with the mental side of things. And we are too quick to go and say, can you here believe that? Avalanche that three people died in and how they miss that, or you know, they miss that call. They were total idiots. And it's like the real learning is understanding what led to these people making that call. And so that's a lot in there. And then what are the protocols that I can instill that instantly level up my safety quite a bit.

And so that could be like, I'm not gonna, I just avoid deep slab instability and I don't wanna get into that, but that's the most dangerous snow pack where you have a weak layer that is lingering in the pack. It's dormant for long periods of time, but if it slides, it takes the whole world with it. And that's an example of conditions that kill more experts than anyone else in the world.

So my playbook on that is I just avoid it. Well, I liked it on this is page 217. You have a whole list of tricks of the trade. I thought we'd riff on some of them because each one is like a great sound by in and of itself. So what does B-Bold start out cold mean? People would start out cold, we talked about it.

So you want to start out cold because you know you're gonna get warm once you start hiking. So that allows you to go far. Got it. So it's not overdressing, drenching and sweat, and then you risk hypothermia, dehydration, all that sort of stuff. Or you are like, everyone's finally moving, and you're moving up the mountains, it's like, hey, hold on, I got to take my jacket off, and that sounds like a thing, but it's again, it's just that slow, steady march, and if you start out bold,

you can just move for long periods of time. Okay, so you have know your outrun and know your landing. What do these mean? So your outrun is at the bottom of the run. So we look at everything as A, if it avalanches, the most important question in the backcountry is what happens if it slides? And if the answer is country is what happens if it slides. And if the answer is we get pushed into trees over a cliff, that, you know, and it's death and we want to, that's a big deal, that's a big red flag. And then knowing your outrun is I've also had a lot of injuries where you nail this perfect line and then you come flying into the outrun and it's bumpy and you end up blowing up and bumpy dangerous stuff and get her out. Because you're going too fast.

You're going too fast and you didn't, you knew your face but you didn't know the snow conditions at the very bottom. And so it's one of the, it's an easy thing to overlook. And so when I'm looking at terrain and what I'm going to ride, I always start at the bottom and look up and go, oh, that is a really nice, safe place to exit. What can I do above that? And then everything ends in that exit. Well, Robert Green's rule in the 40-Loss of Power is plan all the way to the end, right? I think what happens is people plan like 80% of the way there and then they go, I'll figure that out when I come to it because it's so far away, I don't want to worry about it right

now. Yes. So, you plan all the way to the end and then that, I imagine that includes thinking about worst case scenarios. You have a bunch in your check, the avalanche reports, what you're just saying, what do you do if there's an avalanche? Is part of it that people don't wanna think about the things that are unpleasant,

they're worried about manifesting them, or it's, the Stoics talk about premeditashiomalura on this idea of premeditating all the bad things that could happen, not because you're a worry war, but because you wanna have a plan if that thing happens. Yeah, you know, you have to not talking about it. It's not the trick. It's what, so being really real about worst-case scenarios is, and I talk about no fall zones in the book and a no fall zone means if you fall you die and so understand and not being afraid to say that and like we're

in zero mistake terrain right now and so I think that that is super critical and the mistakes get made and again I am super guilty of I've made every mistake you can make and at the start of the book I say experience is something you get just after you need it. And under that context, I'm incredibly experienced. The trick is how do you get experience without dying? And so what happens in the mountains, you get out there, you've worked really hard. Maybe it's the last day or your trip. It's the most beautiful mountain you've ever seen, and you get tunnel vision on it, and you talk, and the mountains are whispering to us, but we're not present, and we're not listening to the mountains. And so, so much of it is, are we tapped into the mountains, and not getting distracted

by these other things, and then if you throw in pro snow snowboarding where we make a living out of getting that perfect shot. So who's got the guts to go and finally get to the top, be ready to go and be like, man, and my God, which I talk about listening to your God is your last line of defense to say, hey, I know we all got up in the middle of the night and we worked really hard to get here, but I'm not feeling it.

It's time to go around. That's the trick. Well, you talk about listening to the mountain. You have one in here that I thought was interesting, which is expect the slopes to slide. So you're not just, hey, what could happen, but you are operating almost with the assumption of bad faith of the elements, right? Expecting that thing to happen. That's what mountains do. That's what luck does. It turns, but I think so many people, you know, they, they, they assume it's always going to work out for the bastards,

always going to go the way they want. And then those are the people that are most caught out by it. There's a great line from Sena. He says, the unexpected blow lands heaviest. 100% and that I would say it's just why I love your book so much is the correlation to the proper mindset and in the mountains compared to this. The deep thinking of the Stoics is so you know, compared to this, the deep thinking of the Stoics is so, there's so much parallels there that as I'm reading your book, I'm like, oh my God, that is how I think and that it does. So that's why I really enjoyed your writings.

So you expect, you're basically expecting it to all go to shit at any moment. That doesn't mean you don't continue, but you know what you're going to do if that happens. Well, so having personal protocols is key. So one of those is like, let's just always take the path of say, least danger, because you can, there's a million different ways you can get up a out. And then understanding where you are in a spot and then pre-determining like, man, when we get so off in the cases, the most dangerous part, especially if you're hiking up a shoot,

the highest chance for an avalanche is often at the very top of this shoot. And so when we set out on that, it's, I think about it as I need to turn 20 nose into 20 yeses. And the hardest note to get turned is going to be the very top one. So that means I can be six hours into my day. But mentally, and this is a lot about framing, is I know. Everyone knows we're like, we're going to start up this thing. And hopefully, if we can keep turning those into yeses, then maybe we get to the top. But you know, the last no is often the hardest one to turn.

And then when you get to that point, you're like, I cannot believe this. I cannot, there's no reason not to turn around right now. And we sum it and you're like, wow, we are so fortunate. The mountains open their arms to us today. And the, but the art is when you, the, the mountains say, come, come, come. And then all of a sudden the flip switches and You need to go wow. We are so close

But it's time to turn around and that requires practice and so I keep track of turning around well, that's really where the the Discipline is the most difficult right the discipline to say hey, I'm gonna spend six hours climbing up a mountain at high altitude. That takes a certain physical and mental discipline. But there is a different kind of discipline to go, I'm actually willing to toss all of that out because the signs aren't right here. That strikes me as almost the highest level of discipline. the highest level of discipline. It really is and it's like oftentimes it can be something that I've I've traveled to the other side of the world. I've camped under this thing for three weeks. We've been really patient and it's some at fever. You hear about it with mountain ears and being in that right head space to know

when the lights turn green and you can move forward. And then there's a lot in the book about boogie man fear. So understanding your fear, because maybe you're up high on a mountain and it's a scary step, but it's just a visually a scary thing is what I would call boogie man fear opposed to what's real fear and being able to have an intimate relationship with the fear to understand that and then knowing when to push through the fear or to you know the light goes from green to red and it's time to get out of there. Yeah.

Isn't that what kills a lot of people climbing mountains is that last mad dash for the summit. Like, hey, it's about to get dark. We've got 20 minutes. It's going to take 30 minutes to get there. But if we really push ourselves, we can. That seems like a courageous thing to do, but it's actually what gets you. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, your goals get and clack and cloud your connection to the

mountains. And so, yeah, it's really important to, that's why it's never, we're going to go climb this mountain. It's always, we're going to start, we're going to go look at it never we're gonna go climb this mountain. It's always we're gonna start. We're gonna go look at it. We're gonna make our way up it. I feel good about going to that rock. Feel good about going to that next rock. And then having these personal protocols and knowing and I will break those personal protocols

at times, but we know as a group, we say, okay, we have chosen to break protocol right now. And that just levels the stakes. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brownleur, we will be your resident

not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about

the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. You say ego is not your amigo. I obviously, I say ego is the enemy. Is that why it's the problem? Because you feel insecure. You're like, I don't wanna be the person

that quits this halfway. Or you've already identified, give yourself credit for doing something or worse, you feel like you have something to prove or the rules don't apply to you. Is that where ego gets people killed in the backcountry? Yeah, absolutely. And then you have group dynamics. So I surround myself with people that are like-minded. And so we move through knowing that at any moment,

we can get turned around. But ego is so, I think it's hands down the most dangerous trade in the mountains. And I think about it for myself. My biggest mistakes have been where I'm on top of the world and can't do no wrong. And then all of a sudden, the mountains come and mother nature says, you know,

swarts you down. And then also amongst partners where you will, you get in the mountains and you get people who are flexing out there. And as soon as I see that, I'm just, I'm out of there. Yeah. Well, you say you should actually celebrate turning around, right? So you're taking the ego out of it,

you're not making stopping something that seems dangerous or not right a sign of weakness. Yeah, and that is something that needs to be practiced. So I keep track of that. And so get to a point where we're working at the mountain and we got this big goal for the day and we're deep into our day. And it's like, ah, it's a little weird.

Maybe we could go. Maybe we could. And it's like, you know what? I haven't turned around in two weeks. Like, yeah. This is a great opportunity to turn around. And so it's just that kind of mindset shift of celebrating backing down. And you're celebrating backing down because it strikes me it's almost a little bit like

the acceptance of a kind of a higher power that it's not in your control. You don't always get to decide. You don't always get your way. And if you have consistently gotten your way for a number of times in a row, you should be suspicious. Absolutely. And you think about it. I mean, if you, it's a zero mistake game. So if you, if you're spidey senses, and you got to be really tapped in to and I can feel it when I'm really tapped in. But it you know the mistakes it's like it'll be it might be this hard decision where you got to walk away from this goal you've had for a long time but then you get back to camp and it's like I'm gonna see my family again. And it feels really good.

And because the risks are significant and they're real, and I wish that wasn't the case, but it's just the reality of it. And it's not the dangerous thing or the thing that is so inconvenient is that some of my closest calls have been in mundane terrain that I hope to find myself in with you some day. And it's not just this extreme stuff. It can be on the way to the extreme stuff where the dangers hit you when you least expect it. What's interesting, right, the trait in, say, a basketball player to the game is on the line, give me the ball, I'm going to shoot it.

And they shoot it knowing that it's either going to go in or out. So the athlete has to cultivate the sort of guts to be like, I'll take that shot, right? And so the sport sort of selects for a person who's willing to do that. But in your sport, maybe not unlike being, I don't know, a gladiator or something in the games, these are life and death decisions. It's not, hey, you took the game on the line shot, you missed the game lost, can you, you lost the game, can you carry that on your back and be willing

to be brave enough to walk in the locker room and be like, guys, I screwed it up. You don't get that walk of shame when you make the bad call in your sport necessarily. Yeah, you know, you don't. And it's like ride to live another day. I have things in the book about, say, playing the season. We know the mountains get simpler later in the year. So for me, it's about building time and then ideally making it to the end of the season and there's a, there's two to four days a year when everything lines up and it's generally

in the spring and that's when the, those, what we call lifetime achievement awards happen. Those are our trophies where it's, you get to ride this primo descent on the nobody's ever done and do it in perfect conditions is that's the artist's Rappinism. Well, I talked to Annie Duke about this. She gave me a good way of thinking about it. She wrote this book on quitting and she was saying, you know, a poker player has to quit hands, right? Your hand is no good. You have to quit it. But that's not the same as getting up and leaving the table, but actually even in some instances, you have to quit and give up the table. But that doesn't mean you're quitting the game of poker as a whole. So I do like the idea of living to ride another day, just because you're walking away from a particular line or a particular

project or a particular thing. That doesn't mean you are a quitter as a whole. You're just quitting something that is more downside than upside. Yeah, and while it goes in, mountaineering, you hear the talk about my greatest failures when I got so close to the summit, and I'm like, that's your greatest accomplishment. Failure is not coming home to your family. Sure. Right, but that's a different, that goes to the idea of different kinds of discipline, right?

The discipline to say, I was bone-tired, I run out of oxygen, and with brute force, I made the final sprint to the summit, and pushing past human limitations, that requires discipline and courage. But it may well require more discipline and courage to be like, I'm going to turn around here, even though it breaks my fucking heart that I can see the summit or that potentially a huge, as you said, lifetime achievement award type victory

is within my grasp. It, I think it requires more discipline and strength to turn away from that than perhaps it does to turn towards the potentially hard thing that people doubt is possible. 100% and I think it's, like being really fluid and then just starting out knowing that like there's a high likelihood things aren't going to line up but that also is it's different

people. I know for me I'm chewing my arm off to get to the top of these mountains and someone else might have a totally different, you know, fear relationship where they're like, man, I keep turning around all the time. But it is, I would say in general, that is what I have found is pretty rare. And it's so often the case where you end up getting this tunnel vision. And to me, that's where this mental framing before you, you even leave camp is so critical. Yeah, I think the relationship between courage and fear is such a tough one because we all experience fear and most of the successful things, the successes we have in life and the things were proudest

ever on the other side of that fear. And yet fear is a very important voice that if you never listen to or fail to listen to could be the very end of you. Yeah, and it's a wild thing too because in the mountains we have this real life or death fear. But I also, it's wild to me how much sleep I've lost on, say, societal fears. Meaning, I want to start a business, I want to, you know, work on some climate stuff. What have you? And, and I do think that my time in the mountains has helped me get over some of these societal fears. And I'm sure you deal with it. You have enough stuff going on that, and I just am always astonished at how much societal fears kind of hold me back and I have to really push through them to do the,

you know, to create these different things like writing a book. I had a ton, I had to get over my fear, who might I write this book? I'm not an expert. What are people gonna think? And as you know, when you, I'm sure, when you write a book, I got to a point where I'm just like, I just gotta throw it.

I gotta be totally honest, get over what people are gonna think and just write this really honest book and let the chips fall where they fall. Well, we see that in all different elements of life, right? You might have someone who's like a decorated soldier on the battlefield, they get elected to public office and then, you know, they're afraid of losing an election or they're afraid of being criticized for something. So what is interesting is like sort of courage is transferable in one sense, like, you're pushing yourself, you get it, I think you develop a kind of a courage

that you can carry forward. And then at the same time, everything you do is scary in its own way, right? And so yeah, the courage, you face these enormous mountains, life or death, no mistake, no margin for error kind of scenarios, and then you're like, but what if someone says something mean about me on Instagram?

You know, like it's still always there. Yeah, I think that it, I think if we're all honest with ourselves, like, what could we do if we aren't shackled by our fear, but then it's that fine line of recklessness, calculation, fear, and that kind of dance. Yeah, well, Aristotle put courage on this spectrum. You know, he said, on the one end, there's cowardice, and on the other end, there's recklessness. And he said courage is actually the midpoint between these two vices, which I think is a really interesting way of thinking about it

because we tend to see courage as like the penultimate thing and actually courage should be properly seen, a moderate, you know, a moderate middle ground between too much and too little. That's, that is perfect. I would agree with him. Well, you know, and it's funny too because I think we saw this during the pandemic. You see it in other people like they, they, they, they, they, they miss the point of what courage or fearlessness is about. Like I'll give you an example, friend of mine, and I'm one of the investors,

we bought this ghost town in Southern California in Saragordo at the top of right across from Mount Whitney. And you know, he goes down in these crazy mines. We'll go like 900 feet down and do all this stuff, which I would never do. But sometimes I'll be like, but why aren't you wearing a motorcycle helmet when you're on your dirt bike? Do you know what I mean? So there's this thing where people are courageous and that's great and

that makes them part of, that makes them who they are. And yet we also needlessly take risks that have nothing to do with what we're doing. And so much of that is rooted ironically and not wanting to look weird or lame, you know? But I was just like, you know, look, I totally get the fearlessness thing, but you don't need to get a traumatic brain injury for no fucking reason, right? And so it's interesting where sometimes that courage

or that fearlessness is wrongly transferable to other aspects of our lives. Definitely and that and and I think there's a level of um I don't know like I skateboard and I'm in very there's a lot of fear in my skateboarding I think of like how much fear holds me back on a or my skateboarding, I think of like how much fear holds me back on a skateboard. And I'm at peace with that. And so that, yeah. Because it's not where you're competing, right? Like you're doing it for fun reasons or for, you know, creative reasons. If you blow out your knee skateboarding, what does that do for you?

Yeah. And that,, for sure. And I guess that's something that I would say I've really evolved with my snowboarding and my surfing and all aspects of my life is I've been working hard on getting more out of less. I think of Eckhart Tolle, the opening of his book, The Power Now, where he sits on this park bench, and he has this full-on powder day. And so my goal, and what I'm most excited about, my kind of snowboard and surf path, is that I need less to be fulfilled on the mountain. And where it's the worst where you see some people

where it goes the other way, we're like, you know what, unless it's the past day of the year, I want nothing to do with it. And so tonight I'll go up to Boreal and ride a snow skate and with my kid and on this little 300-foot hill and it will be super fun on this something that may be 20 years ago, I would have never done. Yeah, you know, it's funny. Did you watch that HBO documentary about Tony Hawk?

I have not. It's in the queue. It's so it's so good, but there's this scene where all of I forget what they're called, the Blood Brothers or what are the gang was called and yeah, bones brigade. They all get together. They're like doing some photo shoot of all of them together. And they're skating on this half pipe. And then the sort of competitive instincts kick in. And they start pushing it like way harder than they need to push. And then Tony goes up and does something. He falls.

He gets knocked out. And all the other guys are like a gas. They're like, you can't, you know, you can't do it this way anymore. And there was a moment of it where I was like, oh yeah, he, he, because of his intense ability at this thing, he can't, he's lost the ability to just enjoy escape with friends, right? Which is a tragedy, I think, a lot of people I would put myself in it, when you become good, it's really good at something.

You can end up depriving yourself of the ability to just enjoy doing it at a leisurely pace. Yeah, and that's where you will see people walk away. It's common for pro skaters, surfers, snowboarders, what have you to, they can't kind of reach that peak anymore and they walk away. And I think, I mean, split boarding's played a huge role in that because every walk in the mountains is nice

and it's better in a going in the snowboard. It's a different way of doing an old thing. A different way of doing an old thing, but also creativity. I'm fortunate enough to make my own snowboards. And so if I'm bored, I can just go and grab a totally different board and change the mountain. Yeah, no, it was funny.

I was watching that documentary and I was talking to my friend Brent about it. I was like, look, this dude's like 50 years old. He's trying to do the 900. And you know what he's wearing? He's wearing pads, man. He's wearing pads, right? He doesn't care what he looks like.

He doesn't want to blow out his knee. You've got to be careful. I think that is, that can also be the problem where we, again, we mistake courage for a kind of being a glutton for punishment or not caring about what happens or whatever it is. Just like, I thought about this during COVID people would be like, oh, I'm not scared of a virus.

And I was like, I'm not scared of it. I just don't want it. There's a big difference between those two. Like, you know what I mean? Like, the reason you, like, look, some people practice, some people use contraceptives because they're scared of having a baby. People who already have children and use contraceptives are not scared of having a baby.

They just don't want another one, right? Like, you're not scared. You just know what the potential consequences of a thing are and you're able to make a rational decision to not want that thing. Yeah, absolutely. And then I think about it, I realized a long time ago that like, I want to be doing this my whole life. And so that adjusts some decision-making to be able to do that and really playing the long game, playing the season with a long game and then being really patient for those few times

A year where you might get to that spot where the mountains lay down and Open their arms and and and that's what I my new favorite motto in the mountains is, if it's not a screaming yes, then it's a no. Yes. Yes. Well, the other way to do that is if it's not fuck yes, fuck no. And that, yeah, I've learned a lot on that with just general decision making on that, right? Yeah, it's, no, you know, the thing,

I think it's popular when you're young, right? The who I want to die before I get older or a current co-bane, is it better to burn out or fade away? It's way better to fade away. Way better. You know, only a very young idiot thinks that it's cooler or better to go out in a blaze of glory young, then to make some decisions here or there that are safe. Now this, I think, is different, right? People hear that, and then that's the person who, to go back to politics, is always sitting on the sidelines of stuff and not risking because they want to maintain their office or their reputation.

We're talking about this more in the physical sense, right? Like if you want to be good at this thing, you want to do it for a long time, you have to make decisions with the longer term view. You can't be putting all your chips in, you know, every time, because eventually, you know, you keep going double or nothing. Eventually you go bust.

Yeah, and yeah, I mean, I love that man in the arena, Roosevelt quote, and that definitely drives me with my work on climate front. I think when it comes to the mountains, it's having mentors. And I talk a lot about mentors in the mountains, but also in all aspects of life. And I am really guided by informal mentorship in whether it's business, health, snowboarding, what have you. And I think that that, just looking at people that are further down the road than you

and saying, I want to be at that same spot when I'm their age has been really great guidance for me. Yeah, you look at the people and they're like, okay, they're extremely successful, but you know, they've gone bankrupt three times, they don't talk to their kids, their marriage fell apart, their knees don't work, right? Like, you can see someone who's success you admire and actually see them as a cautionary tale, and then there's the sort of rarer types who are really good at what they do. Maybe they're not the most well-known in the field,

but they're really good at what they do, and they have a more balanced, sustainable, you know, enduring relationship with their craft and their life. And that's, I think, what you want to get closer towards being. Yeah, the work life balance to me is, I mean, that's really the dance. I mean, I got two teenage kids that once will be off to college next year. And, and so just trying to maintain that and appreciate my time with them and it's something I mean I see all the stuff that you have going on and I'm enamored by

you know you must have I mean that must be quite a juggling act for you on the work-life balance. you on the work life balance. today and I'm going to leave after we do this, which will be three. I'm going to go for a run. I'll be home by 430. You know what I mean? So I try to, first off, it's about saying no to stuff that's not those things, right? But I do not particularly admire people. You're like, hey, we get on the phone know, we got on the phone and they're like, yeah, I've got, I've got a time three weeks from now from 11 to 11.06 a.m. You know, like, I'm like, that seems like a shitty

life, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And then again, that's where I have in those like those life mentors that have the right balance are connected there when your kids get home. I mean, that's, yeah, that's awesome that you're, you know, get to call it a day at four o'clock and be with your kids. Well, you talked about this a little bit, I think, in the book where you talked about down days, which is the idea that, look, not every day is fresh tracks at 4 a.m., right?

A lot of days, it's, hey, it's not a good enough day to go out or today I'm training or, you know, today I'm resting because I just worked six days in a row or whatever it is. I think also, like, when do you rest? When do you recover into me? That also requires more discipline. Like, one of the things I'm looking at in 2023, I was just talking to my assistant about this, is like, I want a day where nothing is scheduled and I assume that I'm not going to be working, but like, I'm going to be home that day, maybe catching up on stuff, but like, I want to have a day scheduled off, which I think will force me to actually be more disciplined the other four days of the week.

Yeah, and I think about I'm sure you will quieting the mind so you have time for those those bigger thoughts to come in and and for me with business and protect our winners and family and snowboarding, the reality is it is it's a juggle at home, but which is why I love when I get in on these longer expeditions. And Mother Nature might tell us, we'll be pinned in a storm for over a week at times. And some people go crazy during that. And I am just in heaven. I'm reading books, I'm napping, I'm drawing, we're playing games, like I could,

you know, I relish those, those forced down days. Well, probably forces you to practice an active understanding of how little you control. When I talk to Steve Vernella, you know, who he is, the hunter, he's awesome, but you know, he'll go on these trips, and it's like supposed to be a three day hunt in British Columbia, and it's like,

the fog doesn't even live for the first six days. And just the idea that you don't decide how long it's gonna take. You don't decide when the animals are gonna show. You don't decide any of those things, and so you better get comfortable sitting on your ass and waiting for the clouds to open up or the door to be unlocked. That does probably give you a sense of powerlessness that's actually helpful in the rest of your life.

Totally. When you get, I mean, mother nature at that point is just such the rule or she doesn't care about your plans, doesn't care about your schedule, and the type of snowboarding that I've put a lot of energy towards is going deep into the mountains in Alaska. I love riding these spines, like kind of fluted almost like your shower curtain thing. Those only form in the areas in the world. They are geographic and orographical anomalies that require ungodly amounts of snow. So if you're a spine hunter, as we would call it, you better be willing to wait out massive tent swallowing storms for up to 10 days at a time.

Yeah. Well, and then the more successful you get, the more you're used to getting your way, the harder it is to swallow like, no, no, it's going to be three times longer than you thought. And then you're also, you're running through your head. Do you know what this cost me? You know, do you know what I'm missing at home? Or do you know how tired I am? Or this means I'm gonna have to cancel this or that.

You know, like, you get so used to getting your way and then life has to find a way to remind you that you are not in charge. Yeah, and Mother Nature's great at that that which is why we never have like definitive end dates and I've probably lost a friend or two on the like you said we'd be out of here in two weeks and it's like well you can leave but we're not. Yeah right. And then you look at how long it would take to get back to that scenario. And that's where things can go sideways, where maybe we achieve our goal,

but we finally have this great weather window, the snow is stable, and I call it the wonderful problem where you have this one goal, and you work really hard to get there, and you stand on top of it, and you look look out and there's 10 more that you see. And then so we'll achieve that goal. The weather's holding and it's like, well, it would take us so long to get back to this spot on planet earth with these conditions again. We're not leaving. And yeah, it's just accepting how finite the act of

shrapnelism is at a high level. There's also probably a good illustration in what you do. You waited two weeks, you hiked for seven hours, you got up there, and then the run is six minutes. You know, sick transit Gloria, like all Gloria is fleeting. Like it's so ephemeral, it's so quick. The investment and the patience and the discipline and all the things that went into it. And then the actual rewards are so quick and ephemeral. One, that should humble you, but two, I think,

if you didn't enjoy the process, the lead up to it, then you're going to find the whole thing very lacking. Yes, it is all process. If you can't find joy in the process, I'm sure it's like you with your books. I mean, you must enjoy that process of going through it. And because that's in the end, that's what it's all about. And then we talk about, there's a great quote from a Russian bodybuilder who's looking for it in the book, but white moments, which is where you do all this work. And it requires a ton of energy, but your brain is basically able to shut off and work at this

ridiculously high level effortlessly, and it's like time stands still, and it's going through this portal into this new world, and it's so fleeting those white moments and you know could be years in between white moments and when they come I mean it's common for me When that happens we're at the bottom of a run. I'll fall over and start weeping Yeah, no, it's a good metaphor. It's a good metaphor for life I mean mean, with writing what's crazy as you work all this time on this thing, and it's not just that publishing is over so fast, that's the worst part. Like the outcome is the worst part.

Like, one, because how did it do? There's all this part you don't control, but it's just like, no, actually the reward for years of work on a thing is then, you have to spend a bunch of time doing not that thing. I've got to get on a plane and fly it here. I've got to do this interview, I've got to do that. You know, I've got to, you know, I've got to sign all these, but I have to do all this stuff, which are, you know,

there's writing and not writing, and publishing is not writing. So you actually get to a place where if you really love the process, you love doing the thing, there's almost a, a bitter sweetness to, to, to finishing because the, the reward is the antithesis of that thing. Yeah. So how, I mean, you, what, how, what is your cadence on, but I mean, I said, a book a year is a book every six months. Right. Like right now, I'm on this one that's a book a year, because I saw the, a four book series on like this sort of four contained thing on the Cardinal virtues, which if I was doing it again, I might space out more because it's, it kind of ends up being like a nine months of really focused and then

three months of not focused, which is, you know, that's a lot in a short amount of time of not focused. But like, basically, I think about it as like, I love doing it. And so I wake up and I do it every day. And the byproduct of it is the publishable work, right? Like, it's an accidental byproduct, right?

The finished product, the things that people read, that's not what I am trying to create. That is what is created by me sitting down and doing the work every day. And do you, are you one of those people, like you could, you got 20 bucks in your hand? No, I do find, you're point about when you get to the top of the mountain, this thing you've been waiting for suddenly, you go, oh wait, there's like five other ones right near here that I wanna do that I didn't know. I have this sort of blessing slash curse,

which is right as I start to get, like I'm totally consumed by, can think of almost nothing else while I'm writing a book. And then there is this moment where, you know, like if the first two thirds of it are getting to the the peak of it, and then the last part is the downhill part, once I start to get to the downhill part, suddenly resources and energy is freed up that was occupied just getting to the top earlier and then ideas for what comes next tend to pop into my head. So I almost, it's like in the depths of the book, I'm like, I can't wait for this is to be over, I'm going to get a break, you know, I'm going to do something else and then,

it's like a few weeks after that, I'm like, you know what book? I have to do next. And I have to do it, right? Because I get so excited about it. So it's, it never, there's a Haitian proverb behind mountains. There are more mountains. You get to the top and then you're like, oh, wait, there's up, but in a good way, you're like, oh, wait, there's more mountains. Yeah. So I found this white moment quote that I'll read it because I think you'll like it. At the peak of tremendous and victorious effort, well, the blood is pounding in your head. All suddenly comes quiet within you. Everything seems clearer and wider than ever before as if great spotlights had been turned on. At that moment, you have the conviction that you contain all the power in the world,

that you are capable of everything, that you have the conviction that you contain all the power in the world, that you are capable of everything, that you have wings. There is no more precious moment in life than this, the white moment, and you will work hard for years just to taste it again. You're Eve Lasson. It's so beautiful. And so you better enjoy it while it's there because it might last for seven seconds. I might be a full minute. Yeah, he's talking about

clean lifting a bunch of weight over his head. Yeah, so not very long. Yeah, and that's where it goes to like in my world, if you need to feel good at the end of the day by putting your life on the line, then that bears, you know, you should kind of look, peel back the layers on that and see what's going on. And so my goal has been to get more out of less in all facets of life. Well, so last question for you is we wrap up, because you touched on it briefly in the book.

I thought it was interesting. You're talking about your kids. So how have you pushed them and not pushed them into sport and into out of their comfort zone? I imagine that's attention for you. Yeah, it's, I mean, my biggest fear was pushing, say, snowboarding and these kind of lifetime sports that I do, snowboarding, surfing, climbing, biking, etc. Pushing my kids to a point where they didn't want to do it. And so I really slow-played them and just tried to really make it fun and celebrate all aspects of that. And in my town, we produce a lot of Olympians and it's common for, say, first graders

to be getting pulled out of school at lunch on Thursdays and Friday type thing and going into training. and we never did that. It was always like I wasn't trying to my goal was always like I want them to just enjoy the mountains being out there and and even backpacking all these different things and I'd say my trick that I give to parents because they ask me a lot is how do you do that? And for us it was just simple things like if we go to the mountain you got to take three runs, if you take three runs you get a cookie. When we do these backpacking trips, I mean what little kid wants to go on a hike all day,

not very few. So it's about building these like the dream trail mix full of candy and just like constantly, I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but my kids don't need a lot of candy, but when we're back packing, they do. But now we're at a phase where my kids are now starting to pass me up on the mountains, and it's about, and it's clearly part of their life. So now it's about how do I make it,

so they don't make stupid decisions in the mountains. And that's just stuff that you slowly bring into them day after day, but so much of my teaching is I call it through osmosis, where I really try to keep my mouth shut. And I'm like, all right, they're mostly doing this right. I don't want to micromanage them. I like let them do their thing.

And that's worked out for my kids. Well, the Stoics would say don't talk about it, be about it. That is so good. I'm gonna use that because that's exactly kind of how I've taught my kids is through just example. Yeah, I mean, when I think about my own relationship with snowboarding, obviously I was very blessed that my parents were taking us every weekend.

But I think part of the reason I don't do it as much anymore is that what I really wanted to do at 15 was stay at home with my friends. You know what I mean? I wanted, so it's as you, almost the proportion with which you force an activity on kids is the exact amount of resentment or dislike they are going to have for that thing.

Yeah, unless there's more, a lot of times you go to the mountain and turn into sledding, which is fine. And then, same, I mean, one of the greatest backpacking trips I went on was from I-80 to old 40. So basically, Boreal to Donor Pass Road. And it was three miles, a three-night trip, and we covered three miles a ground with two families, a little kids, under nine years old. And so you're talking about the smallest distance you could possibly go,

but had so much joy of just being, there's much of lakes there and just the simple act of camping and cooking and hanging the food from the bears and things of that nature. So it's about not about what maybe your goal is for the day. It's just been about fun and and less is more keeping it really simple. We do so much of our early day snowboarding was just in the backyard, building a little jump and calling it good. Yeah, yeah, it's letting them discover it on their own. And then also, you talked about taking the long view of it, right? I may come back to it, right? And so, or there are a whole bunch.

We all have things that our parents made us do that we hated or we didn't fully appreciate. And then as we came back to it, or as we got older, we came back to it and we appreciated the foundation, but we were able to come back to our own. So it's like, I think realizing that as you introduce your kids to things or you give them lessons,

they are listening. You just, but they don't have to accept it right now. They don't have to love it right now. You gotta let time, you're planting seeds and you gotta let those seeds germinate and they may be long underground. It may be two decades before they come back and appreciate this thing.

That is so well said. And I think it's really accurate with the outdoors especially because these are long, slow learnings that eventually stick with them and just simple like sleeping under the stars and real basic stuff. And as I said at the beginning, it's the having kids, like I mean my life is shaped around the outdoors, but having kids Is really showed me the true value of just simple time Outdoors getting them away from screens getting them sitting around a fire getting them sleeping under the stars sledding build the snowman and so I could just

Yeah, that is worth the effort. And now, like I said, it's like, now I'm following my kids up the mountain. And we're, you know, surfing was another one where so many people, you can blow surfing really hard. So with that, I would always just leave the boards on the beach and they had to pick them up. and that meant years of them just playing in the short Pound and eventually they picked up a board and now we're out surfing ocean beach together and and you know again

We're like it's not a parent kid relationship anymore. It's where teammates out there Yeah, Steve Steve R Rinales book outdoor kids in an inside world, I thought was just, it's one of those books that even if you don't read the book, the title does like 90% of the work for you, but yeah, nobody wants an inside kid, right? Like you want an outdoor kid because an outdoor kid can also work inside,

but not the other way around necessarily. You want, we made the decision, we sent my two kids to this pre-school, this pre-k, that's totally outside. There's no buildings. And it's a little weird, you drop your kid off at pre-k, and there's an open fire.

That's the opposite of what the sort of safetyism that you would expect at a preschool. And then you pick them up and you literally have to hose them down because they're covered in mud. But you hope you're planting some seeds that are gonna ultimately grow something more resilient than whatever the equally tempting, sort of iPad, screen, YouTube world that's also competing

for their love and affection. 100%. That sounds, that's an amazing preschool. Crudos for bringing them there. No, no, it's been, it's been good, it's been good. Well, man, I loved the book. I thought it's a great concept. By the way, is it, how am I supposed to pronounce this word? Maybe let's end on you pronouncing the title for me.

So I don't make a fool of myself when I do the intro. The art of shrapenism. So it's shredding meets alpinism. God is. Shrapenism. Good luck with that. That's we like to make up words. No, no, that's perfect.

Whenever I've had to tell the people that help me with the podcast, like, assume that a literate child is pronouncing whatever you're putting in front of me and if you don't spell out how to pronounce it, I will find a way to embarrass myself with it. Well, I appreciate the opportunity. I just want to let you know, I mean, your work has been really inspiring to me. And the ethos of the Stoics runs deep in my life, which I think was why I was so enamored with your books,

because I'm like, oh my, this is so me. And yeah, towards the end of the book, I actually, there's a quote of yours in the book about where I kind of dive into walking meditations, where I loved how you were talking about one of the stills, how they do their thinking through walking and and equating that to what we're doing with our split boards and walking through these winter wonderlands and just kind of rifting on what the Stoics would have thought of that if they had the opportunity to do that. So just again, thanks for the opportunity and the inspiration. Well, it's beautifully full circle for me because I grew up looking at you in magazines and on the videos I would watch. So this is very cool for me because I grew up looking at you in magazines and on the videos I would I would watch so this is this is very cool for me too

Cool, well, let's let's do it. Come on. Let's get it. No, I got everything you need I got a good full stuff. I got lift tickets just I am one stop shopping for you. All right cool man, I appreciate it. Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoog podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in the couple years we've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it, and this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts. early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.