The Daily Stoic - Kamal Ravikant on Facing Death and Loving Yourself

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

This episode comes out for free on 10/26/22. Ryan talks to author and investor Kamal Ravikant about his recent near death experience, why the inner game is the ultimate game, how loving yourself can change your relationship with suffering, and more.Kamal Ravikant is the author of the bestselling books, Love Yourself Like Your Life Depends On It and Live Your Truth. He’s been a US Army Infantry soldier, held the hands of dying patients, climbed in the Himalayas, spoken to audiences around the globe, walked 550 miles across Spain, meditated with Tibetan monks, and worked with some of the best people in Silicon Valley. But more than anything, he is passionate about writing books that improve lives.✉️  Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast where each day we bring you a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength, insight, and wisdom every day life. Each one of these passages is based on the 2000-year-old philosophy that has guided some of history's greatest men and women. For more, you can visit us dailystowett.com. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts.

episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. I am hard at work on the new book just chugging away trying to not get too distracted with all the things that are happening. It's going well. Actually really got on a great rhythm in the last week or so during the launch. I was, you know, spent a lot of time at the office, but was running each day. I got in the cold plunge each day. Didn't travel because I was, you know, spent a lot of time at the office, but I was running each day. I got in the cold plunge each day. Didn't travel because I was rooted in one spot to do the launch and really, really was in a rhythm. And when the book came out on Tuesday, the 27th, I celebrated by saving a little chapter that I was really excited to write a story that I was just

rear into attack. And I spent that morning not thinking about how the book was doing, not thinking about, you know, whether people liked it or not, not thinking about some of the issues or problems or the logistics or the, you know, all that had happened. As excited and proud as I am of discipline is destiny and thank you all for the support and I do hope you read the book. and thank you all for the support. And I do hope you read the book. What got me out of bed that morning was the opportunity to work on the next one. I love the work.

I love the opportunity to do the work and I don't want it to go to waste. And so I'm chugging away on this new book. But I did take a break during the launch week to have a conversation with one of my favorite people, Kamal Ravakant. I met an investor in a fund that Kamal did several years ago. I'm a big fan of his book.

Love yourself, like your life depends on it, which I carry here in the bookstore. You can check it out. I highly recommend it. And actually, we have a plan to excerpt a chunk of it here on the podcast. It's a sort of classic for a reason almost everyone I know in Silicon Valley has read it. But I don't talk a lot here about Steve Hanselman, my co-author on the Daily Stoic, my literary agent, just a wonderful, sweet kind of human being. Steve doesn't really take on clients.

He doesn't look for clients the whole time. I've known him for 10 plus years. I don't know how many. I maybe count three new clients he's worked with. So I don't ever, when people go, Hey, can I have an introduction to your literary agent? I go, he doesn't want it. I'd be happy to, but he won't get anywhere. The only person I unsolicitedly made an introduction to, actually I made two unsolicited introductions to him. One was to Steven Pressfield, whose literary agent Sterling Lord recently passed away, and I know Steve's a fan, so I connected him. But Kamal was the perhaps only unsolicited author introduction I have made, was the perhaps only unsolicited author introduction I have made and they work together. They originally live yourself like your life depends on it was

self-published and they did an expanded wonderful addition for Harper Collins. That's the one I carry in the store. He did that and then he also helped Camel sell a novel that he published, which I also recommend. And we talk about all that and more in today's conversation about why I think Kamoel is one of the nicest people I've ever met. And we begin with a near death experience that he had. I can't recommend Kamoel's work enough. I'll just get right to it. And you can go to his website, Kamoel.blog. You can get his newsletter at newsletter.foundersend.com. And it can follow him on pretty much every social platform at comeall.ravacont and do pick up a copy of Love Yourself

like your life depends on it at thepaintedpourch.com or swing by and grab one next time you're in Texas. Well, I feel like this is a weird way to begin, but I feel like you almost died since the last time we talked. I did. It's pretty horribly. What happened? I'm doing that.

I went in for elective surgery and there's a big mess up and then we read an artery and did do it correctly. And I was, you know, this show, I was coming out of it and they make, you know, when they make you walk afterwards to make sure you're fine so you can release you. Pottery burst. And it was a doma artery and it bursted such force that all this blood pulled up in my abdomen and spurced out. I was spraying blood everywhere and basically kind of, put it out, you know. And how fast was this?

Like you were just, you felt, you felt like, you were alive and then your body was just like quitting, like in a matter of seconds. No, it was like when I was walking, I felt like someone all of a sudden hit me with a sledgehammer in my groin, in my lower abdomen area. And I just didn't even know pain like that was possible,

especially when you're not expecting it. Sure. And then it just set a ballooning. And I remember looking and shocked, just like, what the hell? And then, and as I got back to the bed, and then it's all of a sudden, there was like, it found like a hosebrush first day, that I'm spray blood everywhere. And next thing I know, I'm just like,

covered it soaked in my own blood and like, wouldn't recommend this experience to anyone. It was awful. It was the most, I mean, I can't even describe the pain. And also, but talk about mortality, right? Like yeah, because like I was actually rereading, I live in a set of kind of earliest, right? Talk about facing your dad,

and it's not how I expected to do it, you know, and I actually remember, the thing that saved me was the fact that I hadn't left the hospital yet. Sure. Every resident there told me like, look, if you had just walked out, this happened, it probably wouldn't have.

You would have done right away. And so they grabbed me, wheeled me into OR, slashed me open, which wasn't fun either. And, and, and save my life. I had to go in and, you know, clamp that artery and then, you know, fix things. But, I remember that feeling, oh, when I'm in the wheeled me into OR, I'm wide awake.

And I'm just spraying blood everywhere. And there's like a this poor resident, you know, these residents, he's got his hands on me and he's like one of spring for his hands and I'm looking around and at this point you're in such shock. I think you're done no longer in pain. Just looking around and it was almost like a circus of people running around screaming, things clattering. I remember thinking and I remember starting to feel things in myself shut down.

Like things like, because I guess later on, a little bit like a blood gets shut off from organs, I was wearing a graying, you know, bodies like losing blood really fast. I remember thinking, I'm a good man. I don't deserve to go like this. Right. And, you know, like this is not how I deserve to go. And then I thought,

oh, shit, I have no choice. Right. And I have to give into that. And in that moment, I remember having to give into that, I had no fucking choice. Yeah. Aside from like, well, if you think about, I think we don't do a good job thinking about our mortality at all. But when we do, we think like, oh, what if I find out I have cancer, right? Or you kind of see it as this slow thing that you're having to grapple with or wrestle with, right? But yours, what's surreal and strange about yours

is it was this sort of gruesome sudden emergency thing, but it also wasn't like you got hit by a bus or you got shot in a war zone. It was just like a chance error. And then a freak set of circumstances flash forward to you're literally watching your life shoot out of your body, that must have been incredibly strange. Dude, it's like, you know, the thing is, the funny thing is you stop thinking, all you're doing is it's like at that point, it's just flashes of pictures and fears emotions. And I remember feeling at one point fear, like, I didn't know fear was a thing like that. Like, like, because it's like that.

I think the hind brain kicks in, right? The hind brain kicks in. And it's just emotions and images. And then once in a while, if you're thinking, oh, I don't want this. This is not how I wanted it. I don't want this. And then like, I don't have a choice.

And in that moment, like, you can either fight it, or like, I didn't even think I could fight it because I have a choice. And in that moment, you can either fight it, or I didn't even think I could fight it because I had no choice. I was like, okay, I remember surrendering to it and lying back. And that's when I finally closed my eyes and I sit down to it. And I fell into this dark, dark blackness.

And I remember this very clearly, and who knows if they're popping me drugs at that time or not who it would this came from? But it's literally like falling into a dark ocean, like you know, like you see a diver fall, like a free driver falling in the ocean, falling on my back, and the ocean is dark, and the only light is emanating from me,

and just falling, falling deeper, deeper, and then nothing. How long are we talking about? For the moment you stand up till the moment like, okay, we stopped the bleeding. I don't know because I think I was just stopped bleeding. They have to go in. And I think I was out. I am passed out by then. Or so I don't know.

It feels like hours is probably like minute to minute. Right. Right. Isn't that interesting that like how time I think in these moments of crisis, and the pandemic was a moment of crisis that illustrated in a different way, where suddenly you realize what a construct time is and how, how strange our relationship with it is where, you know, the pandemic three years feels like three months,

but then in this moment where you're dying, you know, a pandemic three years feels like three months, but then in this moment where you're dying, you know, three minutes feels like three hours. Yeah, yeah, it's also very clear. The image is very clear in my head. Yeah, you know, yeah, that's a great observation, man. That's a great observation. So they stop the bleeding and then you come out of it at some point not dead. What is that like?

Yeah, I was under surgery for like six hours, I woke up and I mean, I was very drugged up. Yeah. And then it was like, okay, I survived now a lot. And actually the worst part came after it was like, because of what they had to do to, you know, go in, cause a lot of damage. And I basically lost like two years of my life and just fear, fear of pain, just getting to the days. And then I have finally had another surgery last year that fought

and this wonderful doctor from the tough steps all down the country that got together. And they finally fixed everything. And but it was just like, man, talk about like living day-to-day, moment to moment, when you're in pure Spain, that's all you do. It just lived day-to-day, moment to moment. So it was actually harder coming out of it. The living part was harder after a while for the next two years. I imagine you very destabilizing. Did you have any anger though?

It feels like there'd be a way that one could come out of this. And obviously it was an accident, but it wasn't, it wasn't like a tumor that almost killed you. It was a mistake or a series of mistakes that were made by people and an institution. How do you, I imagine there's this tension between like, I'm so glad that I'm alive, and I almost died. How could you do this to me? Yeah, actually, I wasn't angry at beginning. I was grateful because I saved my life.

But later on, some stuff came out that, oh my God, this was a complete Confederacy of Donsons. And I said, you realize this is what a shit show, some of the medical system can be. It was a complete Like oh my god if I'm known in England of what I know going in I never would have gone in right and that's when the anger came sure You know, but anger you take action you know, so I took action and And

That's that's the thing. Yeah, anger came once I learned but but before it was like, I felt like that's a vibe. And then I was just a survival note. And I was literally just trying to do what I write about. So like the my main thing was, I can't let my mind get destroyed by this. Right. I cannot let the pain, the emotions destroy my mind. Because my mind goes everything else.

You know, like if I become a shit show mind goes everything else, you know, like if I become a shit show there, everything else is worthless. Well, I imagine that was a big test for you in a way. Obviously you're an actor. Oh my God, yeah. You do lots of stuff that just to not be mobile and the curve of getting back to your old self

must have been really hard. But as someone who is so big on self-care and mental health and all of these things, I have to imagine that changed your practice in a lot of ways, or challenged the practice for you because, you know, it's easy to look in the mirror and do it, not easy, but it's easier to look in the mirror and do some of the stuff that you've talked about in your books. It's harder to do that, or sorry, it's easier to do that when you're everything else is working. It's harder to do that when you feel like crap, right? Like because-

Oh my God. I'm sorry. Yeah, but there were days where I honestly, I did, you know, I was miserable. Yeah. And there were days I was just like, look at that. I don't let myself stay in the misery. But then it was like, I know with this elite, you know, it's like if you just, it's just that's the pattern you're creating in your mind. And at that time, that body was so screwed, the only thing I could do was work in my mind. Yeah. And I'll tell you something, it's incredibly hard.

I mean, in fact, there were times where I just gave up on it and then I came back to it. And, but I worked this time, I mean, it's funny, like how in moments of stress is going to be work hardest, right? That work hardest on my mind when I could, and when I came out of it, when I got my health back, it's like my personality was different. It's like my inner being is different, because it was over time to successfully survival

mode, get out day by day, just work through it, get sure about our, to get to the damn day. And then when I got my health back, which was just about a year ago, it's like my, everything, my happiness, everything that bought my set point is like, in a way I never had before. It's really interesting.

Now, I didn't need this experience. It's really interesting. Make me better in any way. It's like what I chose to do with it. They need better than that sense. Yeah, because like when I read, and obviously I know you, but when I when I read Love Yourself, like, or life depends on it, I see it. It's like, this is come all at the bottom of this pit and he's clawing his way back to what he's capable of being, what he wants to be, how he wants his life to go. And so you do that. That's your journey. And I know all the other stuff you've done. I imagine part of what must have been frustrating hard, but then also familiar about where you were when you woke up out of this is you're, you're basically back

in that pit, but it's a, it's, it's a more severe pit. And then in some ways, not that the other one was your fault, but it's like it, it was something that was done to you that just happened. Do you know what I mean? Like you're, you're back to where you were before having told yourself, I've already gotten out of there. You're like, you would be expected to find yourself back there. It must have been familiar in the sense that you're like, oh, I know this place

and scary probably in the sense that you're like, I could not get out of this again. Yeah, and you know what's really hard, sometimes a deal is because you think yourself, I don't deserve this. Yeah, and you know what's really hard, sometimes it's a deal with it's because you think yourself, I don't deserve this. Yeah, but I don't deserve this. Why did this have to happen to me? Sure.

And that's like, that's like a good ol' setica. Yeah. I keep the feeling of a nearer for our lives, right? Yeah. And I got a thought about that in laughter bit. And actually, which is why I don't think I'll ever write about this experience. Or maybe I will. I'm just going to come all for that. Come on, get some rice.

Come on, get some rice. Sure. That's the good that comes out of it. Fair enough, fair enough. Yeah, yeah. No, I lost that. No, go ahead. No, yeah. I mean, when you read Sena, like, you, I think of Sena, because life, so Sena is this successful young lawyer. And then he gets tuberculosis. He has to spend basically eight years or 10 years in Egypt convalescing. He comes back. He rebuilds his career. Then he runs a foul of the emperor. And he gets exiled on these trumped up charges. And like the week before he goes to exile, he loses his infant child. You read some of these essays and you're like, this isn't a guy talking

about these things in the abstract. This is a guy who's had his fucking guts ripped out. And you know, is on the verge of despair, is looking at the loss of everything you ever worked for for a second time. Like life can do that to you. Yeah, and that diversion, it's not deserving of, think that really bestes you up. I think that best we have more than anything.

Yeah, I can imagine. And I have to get over that. I have to get over that. Because you don't deserve it. You're one of the nicest people I've ever met. Is that, you know what I mean? It's not like, it's not like you're like this scumbag or it's not like you were doing something

you knew you shouldn't be doing. And then it didn't work out for you, right? It's not like you got canceled. And you're like, hey, the punishment is more than the crime or something like that, right? This is like a freak series of incidences. And again, yeah, you're walking on the hall of a hospital and then you look down in your bloods all over the floor, right? Like this is a, but that must have been a,

you definitely don't deserve it. And then there's also the, the it can't happen to me, this, which is similar to the I don't deserve it, right? Like, things like this don't happen to people like me. Yeah, or just, yeah, you don't sit around imagining that. Like, even if you sit around imagining a worst-gift scenario, that's not one that would come up in your mind. Yes. You know, I'm not that creative. Well, I just interviewed Amy Moran who wrote, you know, that viral list of 13 things, mental

history. Yeah. She lost, she was telling me she lost her before she wrote that list. So again, the idea that great insightful work can come out of tragedy and pain. She loses her mother at 23. And then on the third year anniversary to the day, her 26 year old husband dropped dead of a heart attack. So it's not only I don't deserve this, but like this doesn't happen. This isn't how things are supposed to go. This is a violation of every actuary table, every statistic, every probability. Like

healthy people don't go into the hospital for minor procedures and come out worse. That's not how it goes. But the truth is that is how it sometimes goes. One out of a thousand times. But it happens. It really is. It really is. But it's all theory until it happens to you. Yes. Until then, it's just scary. What we accept, we accept the freak good luck of our lives with no question, right? Like the fact that you and I are born, the fact that you and I have experienced the things that we've experienced, all the lucky breaks we accept as are just desserts as totally rational,

reasonable, regular things, even though the vast majority of the people on the globe have experienced no such luck, right? And then something bad happens and we go, why am I so cursed? How could this happen to me? I mean, I don't know if I'm in fear of it, but my life has been fairly blessed. And so I often am, you know, the mathematical concept of the regression towards the mean. That hangs over me like the sort of domicates. That's funny. You know, it all these things, the only thing in the end when it comes out of your unit, the only thing that matters is, who am I going to be through this?

Sure. That's all that matter. And you get to that point and that's a choice you have to make. And no one can make it for me. Sometimes it's a hospital bed choice. I made some very clear decisions in a hospital bed that I'm living. Sure.

I am living in my life is much better for it now. But like, one of this is, but the very, in the end it comes under, who am I going to be through this? And that is a choice. It is. And it is a choice when you go through something hard eventually, everyone has to make in this. Many of this to pass basically if I was to be very black and white about it, this to pass.

Am I going to be better through it? I'm going to the best I can through it or am I just going to let it be, let it be bigger than me. It's a disturbing. At the early days of the pandemic, I had two young kids under four. I was staring out at this empty, unopenedable bookstore that I had sunk my life savings into.

And I wrote a little note to myself. I think it's back there somewhere. But I basically just wrote, you know, 2020 is a choice. Will it make you a better person or a worse person? And that's kind of how I try to think about things. It's like, it's not, am I going to be, at the core, you don't decide whether this moves the ball forward or back, whether you make money or not, whether you survive or not.

All of that, the stokes would say is, you know, things maybe you can influence a little bit, but you don't control. But you decide whether it makes you a better person or not, right? Like because that's something on the inside that theoretically nothing on the outside can touch unless you open up the city walls and you let the enemy in. Yeah. And you know, no matter your resources and life, if you're in a hospital bed wearing that that stupid hospital down with all those needles in you and yeah people coming in and out You've lost all your sense of dignity and just poking and prodding you and you know like every 20 minutes and goes off in days and days

It's like you can really it's a it's It's any that's the interesting thing that's a great equal's, it's any, that's the interesting thing. That's a great equalizer, no matter what your resources in life, you end up there. It's no difference than anybody else who's got no resources. And the fact that you're still on the hospital bed and then measuring, and it's like, how am I, what am I gonna do?

How, who am I gonna be? You can have loved ones around you, you know, singing all the right thing, but it's still you in the hospital bed going through that pain. Sure. And it's a very human thing. It's a very, very human experience. This was in the depths of COVID, right? Or was this right before? Um, this was a few months before COVID. Okay. And then last year when I had the surgeries to fix everything, there were complications because of the previous things in the back of the hospital, fix everything. There were complications because the previous things are in the back of the house, but all been injective with every pain that they had and the game that surgeon telling me I could

die because of all this stuff before. But this time I didn't die right away. This one it was more like you could die. That was during COVID. And you know, I'll tell you something very interesting. I told him to stop telling me that. I love it. You can't put that in my mind. I love, I think you're awesome. You're looking out for me. He was trying to get me to do another surgery. And I was like, look, I'm dumb at certain dreams.

You can't guarantee me that that's what happened. And you know what I mean? I am so done. You have no idea. I said, there's a closed window. They would open the windows because of COVID and the hot those, the weirdest thing I've tried to explain to them, for sure, helped.

It would help. Yeah, they didn't get it. It was really comfortable. The hospital was the worst place to be sick. Yes. You know, and I was like, look, I rather jump out of that window. You think I have it on the surgery. You see I'm just going to stop saying that I will die, but that surgery.

And just show you the best to treat me where I am. And what I did was I just sat there the entire time through the pain. And I would just imagine myself on a beach doing my gymnastic rings, feeling healthy, feeling powerful, feeling like completely cured, everything was great. And you know what? No surgery, I think four or five months later, I was doing my gymnastic rings on a beach watching the sunset, just enjoying it, feeling great, and then I remembered, oh my god, this is all I was living in the hospital. This is the exact image I was living in the hospital I'm doing now. There's incredible.

There's absolutely incredible. That moment was incredible. I bet. Is this thing on? Check one, two, one, two. Hey, y'all. I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo, just the name of you. Now, I've held so many occupations over the years

that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Keep a Bag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a bag, love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started. And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby Mrs. Kiki Palmer Podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind.

What will a former child star be if they weren't actors? What happened to sitcoms? It's only fans, only bad. I want wanna know. So I asked my mom about it. These are the questions that keep me up at night. But I'm taking these questions out of my head and I'm bringing them to you.

Because on Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, whatever you get your podcast. Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today. There was something else I wrote down.

I wanted to ask you about like in some in some sense, you're very likely and then any other you strike me as the most unlikely, but like I don't think you were an army ranger. Were you? I wasn't a rage. I was after trade. I just I've never heard that part of your story. I don't think you don't talk about it very much, but I've always wanted to ask you about it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I'm very proud of it. I don't make a big deal about it because I've never been to combat. Yeah. I think the ones who should really get the tanks and everything and the ones who actually, you know, sure, sure.

Yeah, like I was just a training. But I joined when I was a year in college, I was born out of my mind. I was writing people who were just getting drunk and he showed up to exams. He just never got to go to a club at the state school for the first for that year. And he just started the night before and you're doing fine, right? It was like multiple sweats exams. And I was born out of my mind. I was like, I need something better than this. And you know, I'm an immigrant child. So I always felt like a strong responsibility

to the United States. That's not what I want to serve this country. So I just went to a different quarters office and the army, the cooter had this awesome photo of like these infantry guys running around shooting. They showed me a video, I'm like, that's awesome. So I sign up? And turn 19 in book, yeah, in book, if we'll be in Georgia. Wow. Yeah, having known your brother a little bit, I sometimes think of the two of you. Have you heard that expression? It's like,

they talked to two brothers and their father was an alcoholic and one of them doesn't drink and the other is a drunk. And they go, well, you know, why? And their answer for both of them is because my dad was a drunk, right? One goes one way, one goes the other way. I've always been fascinated. You and your brother are so different, right? You're very similar, but you're so different.

I've always wondered where, like what path you diverged from. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Not to apply the interferences in our phone. Oh, that's a great, yeah. I mean, look, especially as a father, I'm sure, for you, that's an interesting question.

I think we both seek challenges in our own way, and we want them to strong sense of justice in our own way, that we want to seek justice in the world. And that comes from our childhood, both of those. But wherever we made those different choices, but I'll tell you one thing, that the experience of just being bootcamped on the 18 was such a formative experience,

that I think that affected the rest of my life in the way and the things I went off and did and challenges I took, that was a real like a marking point. Sure. A funny point that made me go up and made many different paths. And then have sure. Yeah. Yeah, you guys are kind of like a ying and yang of each other, I feel like. Like you're you're directed. You're the same shape, but then there is something very different and opposite about YouTube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's beautiful.

It's beautiful. Yeah. And, and, and yet you both seek out, you both work in the same part of the world. No, a lot of the same, like, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's an interesting series of contrasts and then also connections. Yeah, yeah. It is. And I'm very, I mean, look, it was, you know,

tech, very tech. And I'm very grateful for it. So the wonderful industry would be a part of it. You know, it's, it's, the internet's not a pad. It's not going away. The current tech, you're going to be just fine. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So when you look at your, when you look at the path that you went on, did you feel like it was a reaction against something? Was there something you didn't want to be like? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, I had a rough childhood, you know, like there's some things that my brothers, my brother never experienced that I did. I was older than him. And I wrote about him and loved yourself because I wanted people to understand that they don't allow them.

Yeah. That others go through this as well. Like I was blessed that's a kid and stuff like that. I'm sorry. And thanks man. But I mean, I worked through it. Yeah. I went through therapy and all that.

I think I worked through it. And but I'm looking back, I see how they affected me and the choices that made them. One of them was, I'm looking back, I see how they affected me and the choices that made them. One of them was, I'm going to be tough. No one's going to mess with me again. Bad I remember clearly. So that was part of a choice of joining the military. I'm going to be tough. I'm going to make myself tough. Sure. You know, I still do things like that. Make yourself tough. You know, I do, and it's like, I guess the control, like, no one's ever going to mess with me. Like that, it was very clear. Like I was a child, I didn't have a, I

wasn't strong enough. Now I'm going to be a man. I'm going to be very strong. Right. Yeah. So that's huge, actually. And I met a lot of, a lot of things I've done in my life. And I imagine that sort of toughness or that shell that you develop, that sort of stoicism in the lowercase sense, probably made, then the irony is life doesn't throw you into a war zone or, you know, subject you to, you know, tough physical challenges in that sense. It first subjects you to a bunch of mental health challenges for which you can't really toughen yourself up for. And in fact, toughness is the opposite remedy required. Yeah, yeah. What saved me, you know, and I look at my life as before I learned to let me

know, love myself and ask about love myself and what Sammy was in her work and very soft very Sure the ultimate and thought you know, which is love right there's nothing Talk in the sense there is a toughness of love. Are you talking about it's the opposite what you think of as being a tough man? Yes, right. Yeah, and that's what save you and that's right save me again, and that's our same me again It's the inner world listening in their worst of our worst, not vulnerability. But it's the answer right word. No, no, it's like you reach this moment where your muscles are of no help. Like, you know, you need the opposite of muscle.

You need you need to go inwards. It's not an external physical adversary in terms of another person or the elements or some physical challenge. It's how do I find a way to admit that I'm struggling? How do I find a way to like things about myself? How do I find a way to open up and explore these things? It's the opposite of what joining the infantry is about. Yeah, and it's really interesting

because I've come to believe over time, and actually I'm really know over time that it's the inner game. It is the inner game is the ultimate game. Sure. If your inner game is off, everything's off because your inner game will get you to the good and the bad. And the inner game will make the bad bearable, it will get you through a brick. The inner game is off and in the bad. That's when it's really bad. Sure. And that's when it's really bad. So much of our suffering, the cliché happens without any external input. It just happens in the mind anyway. Right. Right so much of our suffering, you know, the cliche happens without any external

input. It just happens in the mind anyway. Right. The mark to an M and the mark to an M. I have had so many problems and very good. Yeah. Actually, I have happened. And I think it goes back forever. We had the Milton quote that I was just talking to someone about yesterday. The mind can make a heaven of hell and a hell of heaven, right? Like, it doesn't matter. And I think this is part of what you talk about in the books, but it doesn't matter how successful or unsuccessful you are. How great things are going or how terrible they're going. If there's something wrong in here, if there's some misalignment in here,

it will be awful. Meanwhile, if there is an alignment here, you can figure out a way through that because it's just a temporary external thing. Yeah, and this makes sense, and this is how it works. The more the inner game is better, the faster you can get through the bad times. Or at least the bad times seem like you get it going faster.

And in the end, that's, or at least the bad times seem like you get a compressor. And in the end, that's, yeah, it's like, you know, we both know people who are writ and miserable think why. I would say most of them. Yeah, more often than not. It's not a matter of having extra resources, but it's the inner game and it is the most important game there is. We, I think what what happens is the misery or the unpleasantness or whatever it instead of dealing with it, it manifests itself like you go, well, I'm going to focus on this thing over here, right? I'm going to really learn how to play the guitar or I'm going to really throw myself into

building this company, right? Or I'm going to do X, Y or Z. that energy, that misplaced energy is so forceful. Like, there's a Steven Pressfield has this joke about how no one's ever seen Hitler's art. That basically, it was, it was, it was easier for Hitler to take over Germany and try to conquer the world than to be an artist, right? That's hysterical.

That's so funny. And although actually, the joke is funny, it's not actually true because you can see Hitler's art, the US government owns almost all of it. It's in this vault. They seized it after the war. They didn't want there to be a market for Hitler's art afterwards. But the idea is that like dealing with your shit is really hard. Getting good at stuff is hard, but it's easier than dealing with your shit. So what happens is people get really good at something they make a lot of money, they spend a lot of time on it, always hoping to never have to deal with the shit, but that can't go on forever. Eventually, you come to a moment where it's

inescapable that the shit is there. Your wife is telling you you have to deal with it. You know, some public scandal is telling you you have to deal with it. You know, some haunting misery is telling you you have to deal with it. Your kids are making whatever it is. There's something that forces you to reckon with it.

And then you, you are forced to stare at this enormous thing you've built essentially as an escape from the thing you've been putting off doing and dealing with. And usually by then it's become pretty big. Yes. Yes. Both of them have become quite big. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, you know, I use the word mind. I think, you know, like I sometimes separate myself from the mind because I can watch my mind. Sure. And it's really like, I think the most important thing I learn from myself I can do is always work on my mind,

always be better at my mind. And you know, like, and I'm gonna go back to Seneca, is I think he said like, you know, you know, you're really living philosophy when you're when you become a friend to yourself. Yes, yes. This is a friend to yourself. Yeah, that's in your mind, you know, what is really living philosophy when you're when you become a friend to yourself. Yes. Yes. This is a friend to yourself. Yeah. That's in your mind. You know, what is a true friend to yourself? That's like, you know, when I do the love result stuff,

you know, that's true. Like if I love myself, what would I do? Who would I be? I would I treat myself, right? Sure. It's in the mind. The whole show like is in the mind. I love that quote. I actually have a chapter about it in the new book Discipline Destiny because I think people think that discipline is all about pushing yourself further and further and further harder and harder and harder, but there's an ill discipline in that. Like if all you do is go, Ryan, that's not good enough.

Ryan, that's not good enough. Ryan, that's not good enough. That's a form of excess. And that is not, no one actually gets to peak performance, to happiness, to contentment, et cetera, by telling themselves over and over again that they're a worthless piece of shit. Yeah, that doesn't pay off in the end. No, that's what I know of anyway. There's a story about Clienti is one of the early stoke philosophers and he sort of is

walking through Athens and he sees this man, the man's kind of like, you know, like being very hard on himself. You know, he's kind of taught you. You've seen it a million times, not he's just, you could tell someone's being very hard on themselves. And he's sort of talking out loud and Clienthe goes to him and he says, hey, I just want to tell you, you're not talking to a bad person. Meaning that he himself was not a bad, and you think about what an incredible gift that

reminder can be and how I think we can catch ourselves when we start to spiral or pile on. You know, it's like, you're not a shitty person. So why are you talking to yourself like a shitty person? You would never talk to one of your friends the way that you talked to yourself. Nor would you allow anyone to talk to one of your friends the way that you're talking to yourself. It's funny, right?

Like, toward human history, the same thing. It's always a mind, you're just dealing with a mind. It's dealing, you know, the scenery's changed. Yeah. But the dialogue is pretty similar, right? It's almost the mind, just dealing with the mind. It's feeling, you know, the scenery's changed. Yeah. But the dialogue is pretty similar, right? It's almost conical. You know, years ago, I think I was right up the college. I saw, I went to see my actual speed

through a poetry reading, which is incredible. But I was a part, she was a powerhouse. And she mentioned something before she started reading her poems. She said, thousands of years ago, a Roman poet wrote, I'm a human being, therefore nothing human is foreign to me. Yes. And I really remember it. That's what I actually like one of the things I remember.

I think that's Terence. Is it really? Yeah, he's a slave, yeah. That's awesome. Because that really made me go the direction in my writing was, you know, when you know how we're talking about the vulnerability versus the tough thing, like I studied obsessively to write literary fiction, like I mean, way it was like my idol, like literary fiction, that's why I trained myself.

And then I write the end of writing a book, and you know, all I did was collect rejection letters and publish it, right? And then I write this little book about loving. And all I did was collect rejection letters and publish it. And then I'll write this little book about loving yourself. And bam, it puts you on the map as a writer. It's kind of funny, right? It's totally. It's the self-study of the vulnerability and the inner game, not the beautiful craft

of telling, you know, stories. But also we think it's like, you know, Hemingway's is bold, brave, courageous writer. That's what I want to emulate, this sort of masculine thing. And then it turns out that the thing But also we think it's like, you know, Hemingway's is bold brave, courageous writer. That's what I want to emulate, this sort of masculine thing. And then it turns out that the thing that maybe we thought was soft or feminine is actually the scarier thing to do. And therefore, actually the trueer path, right?

What Hemingway says is, I actually have it right here. It says, all you have to do is write one true sentence, right? The truest sentence that you know, you know, It's not a true sentence to emulate Hemingway, doing all the fun, sexy, glamorous stuff. It's can you go deep and write the thing you're afraid to write? Yeah, that's true writing. Yeah. that's rewriting. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I was thinking about is I think about it all the time. Tim has talked about this, but you gave Tim Ferris advice. You were a good friend at a pivotal moment in Ferris' life, which is, you know, he was thinking about, do I do this? Do I do that? Do I keep, he's obviously

made a fortune as a tech investor? And you are basically like, you are very replaceable as a tech investor. If you stop doing this, no one will care. The world will not look any different. You should do the thing that basically only you can do, which is writing, is podcasts, et cetera. I love that advice and I do think that is also what

loving yourself is. It's like, don't do the thing that's comfortable, that's rewarding, that everyone else will look at without question. Do the thing that's a little bit scarier that is uniquely you. Yeah, do the thing that only you can do. Yeah, and when you get success,

and it gives you the greatest inner reward. It's the greatest inner feeling. And you can have success in multiple areas of life. I mean, I'm not bad at that. But the greatest inner reward, council, and the thing that was purely yours. Yeah. It was purely yours.

Yeah. That you just kept out of it and you gave to the world. I talked about, I think everyone should experience that feeling if they can, you know. I was talking to David Rubenstein about this, the billionaire, I was saying that one of the things I noticed is that all the billionaires I've met, they all want to write books. I mean, meanwhile, every author that I know wants to be really rich or richer than they are, right?

And so there's some irony in that, but it's like, wait, if I have the thing that people with lots of money are trying to use their money to get, right, you should maybe just stick with what you have, right? It's like, what do people want to use their money for? It's freedom. It's to feel fulfilled, et cetera. Well, the irony is that money is not always the best way to get that thing. You can have that thing more easily than you often think you can. Yeah, yeah, it's, you know, what it requires having to really sit up the honest with ourselves, which is what you'll think we often do, like the level of honesty.

I think in someone's being in the hospital last year gave me that. honestly, I think in someone's being in the hospital last year gave me that. I've thought a lot about honesty with oneself. And I was like, oh my God, I thought I've been honest with myself before, but like, when you're in the bottom, it's like, you know, that's when you're just like, you have nothing to lose, right? So one is well just be so honest with yourself

that before you would hire yourself, that even just a thought. And man, but it would just be a thought. And man, I wish making it ourselves that, I don't think we can. It would just truly be honest with us. We are. We realize, oh, this is what I really want, that's what I thought I wanted. This is what I, you know, yeah. Well, I have you, so, so, thinking of, of the advice that you gave Tim, we were like,

you know, life is short, how are you gonna spend that time? As you came out of it, you know, Stokes talk about like, okay, imagine your life is over, you've died and then magically come, you come back to life, how would you change? But that happens to you. So, what happened to me?

Yeah, what, what, after the recovery past, what kind of changes did you end up making as a result of the experience? Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll tell you, it's because my mind, I like that's how I'm big on the mind because I've worked with my mind and you know, I literally had my own dogs with my, you know, I get my lights about art. Jeez, the title, you know, I just keep saying, um, I, when I came out and I, I, I've been just like, okay, I'm, I'm living in a way I've never lived before. I, first of

all, I'm truly grateful for every day, every, everything, but I'm only doing what I want to do, when I want to do on my terms. I don't care what anyone desires of me. If I want to do it, I do it. No, the no is so simple. I will cut off relationships in a heartbeat, but friends, if they're an ask to me once, I don't care. I'm too good.

I don't have time for this. Yeah. And I'm loving this. And that allows me to get time for the ones that matter. And even things like, I'll tell you something funny, I woke up in November, I don't know where this came from, I thought, I wanna be like John Wick.

So I've been through my network, Tim Warwick, and a dear friend of ours, you know, great guy. He put me in touch with the former SEAL Team Six operator Steve Sanders, incredibly, like the guy's a legend, very well decorated, very well decorated, has done all this stuff. You would imagine 10, 10, 10, 6, and 10, right. And I called a guy and I told him that,

I could go in the other end thinking, what a jackass. You know, I think he's thinking, but he's like, come on, let's see, you know, let's see how you can train. So I showed up, and I just showed a beginner's mind, completed humble, and I showed up, and I showed up and I just showed a beginner's mind, completed humble and I showed up and I showed up started training. And like I trained with them basically full time for four months.

Every day I have a show up and he told me later on, he's like, every day I did not think you had a show up the same day. I just wore your mind out that I just saw you fall apart and then I showed the next day. And what happened was I got really good. In the process, it was like very much like the, you know, one book that really affected me was

Book of Fire Race by Ma Ma Masuashii. And I was very much just like you, you know, you do for yourself. And I just, and I became really good at combat shooting. No, it's just a skill I plan on ever using. No, you know, I hope I never have to use it. But what's interesting is you follow these little inklinks in your head, and you know,

fortunately I have the connection and resources to do it, but it's whatever it is. It's kind of helped me also come to life. Like looting something new, and challenging yourself, be challenging something new in a beginner's mindset away, that something I was intense, I was coming back to life and it really helped me come back to life and gave me also different kind of confidence that I never had before. And I wasn't even expecting, like I don't walk around

with a God or anything like that, but it just gave me, it gave me a very interesting confidence and I was going to come to the guy,, give me like a whole level of conference never had. And so I decided that like, I'm going to do more of these things. And just like, I'm going to pick something that interests me and just find whatever I can work on it to be the best I can add it and challenge it to me. And because you just get better and better to the process in ways you never expected. I didn't expect to fall in love with it. And I really feel, and I really feel this way, I'm learning from a modern day samurai who

has come back from the wars, hung up his sword, and took out a student who's finally like those, like, just listens and is teaching him the way. It's incredible. Has it made it easier and obviously this is the first world thing but has it made it easier for you to say no to money like to things that could be potential. Oh, say no to what I do. Say no to anything. I only do things for certain values, right? And I don't give it, it's going to be funny, but I don't give a fuck. Yeah.

Literally, it's like you can't, that you can't display me if I want to do it. And if I don't want to do it, you can't convince me. Right. Like it's actually, it's a great deal. Yeah. It's a great deal. Well, it's funny because people think like,

oh, once I reach a certain level, once I have a certain amount, then I'll get that. Then I'll be in a place where I only do things that I want to do, and I don't do things that I don't want to do. When really it has nothing to do with what you have or don't have, and it has everything to do with some place that you can get to inside where you don't feel a need,

where you have a certain kind of inner security that makes you go, yeah, I'm not starving, so why do I have to say yes to this thing, even though it's lucrative or even though other people are doing it, even though it's crazy to say no to it, it's really hard to do. Yeah, because in the end, I'm part of it's part of it for myself. Yeah, sure. And then an announcement, I should focus on things that that I think what I want is over long term. We'll pay off bigger. So like the more, because it's easy to say that yes to the short term quick money hits.

Yeah. That takes you away from the big long term thing. And I like what the real thing is. Yeah. And careers and anything is a long term game. It's not a short term game. A lot of people forget that especially in business where they are not to go. I realize this is a long-term game. It's not a short-term game. A lot of people forget that, especially in business where they are not to go. I realize this is a long-term game.

You're your name, you know, and especially in small industries like tech or whatever, your name will, you know, people check on you, years down their road and they'll have to look back to you for the rest of your life rather than this short-term project. Yeah. I'll tell you something very interesting.

I mean, we want to share this with you on the podcast and it comes from obviously someone who's a billionaire, but notice there's no money involved in this and this I realize watching him how he lives the perfect day and how I started I started applying it to shoulder friends. They're all applying it and and it has and but if you break it down it's nothing to do with this money because when I first I tell people like, boy, I use a billionaire of course sure. I'm like, okay, but if you break it down, it's nothing to do with this money. Because when I first started telling people, like, boy, I use a billion or four. Sure. I'm like, okay, but you can do this too. Okay. Yeah.

So I got to hang out. And it's not a big deal. There's a lot of people do hang out with your grants for a week earlier this year. I get it at his island. And it was one day that he goes, a cycle, got a neighbor, neighbor, golland. So I was sort of bunch of people like, dirty, his guys very big. They're like, neighborhood, neighborhood, all of that. So I was with a bunch of people like, 30s guys, very big. They're like, really, really, pretty similar to the Instagram whenever they're like,

oh, we got to go over to France. We're gonna go biking with them, to connect with him, you know, hang out with them. I was supposed to go and call them at 5 AM. I woke up, they screwed it. I'm gonna go back to that. I thought I think I think go. They went and I went to breakfast that day and I've never seen a bunch of grown men Cry and moan so much and these are very fit guys. Yeah, look at them

Okay, smoke them and they're like oh my god. It was just uphill for 17 miles We got top of hill another hill another hill right so then And so then the guy I think Richard Branson like 71 or 70 or, right? And he comes back and so I made it for breakfast. You know, I'm going to hang a breakfast and it goes off, you know, I'm going to work. And I made him a later for a random later in lunch and I just asked him what was he doing. He said, well, I was working.

Obviously the guys on boards and companies are what I was working. And then he was really bothered by the Ukraine war. Really barely bothered. It was still new. And he was actually talking to European leaders about what they can do to maybe like move oil from countries that don't need it,

a gasher to want that needed to kind of like take away the balance of power for Russia. Yeah, right. And then after that, I saw him, he was out kite surfing. He was just twirling in the water, kite surfing, having a great day. And then we'd off had dinner with his wife and with his wife and grandkids, right?

So I was like, okay, this guy, what are you doing? How did he live his day? I mean, because everyone's a holy cow, this guy's a full day. Imagine living in a life of these full days. He woke up, he did something very physical that most extreme physical fitness for himself like physical fitness that over time because he's done it consistently over time. He's smoking dudes at

third to thirds his age and very fit dudes. You only get that from consistency over time. First thing in the morning, then he had obviously had a good breakfast or whatever. Then he goes and works. He puts his hours in, right? Whatever the job is. And then he sits down and spends a little bit of time on something that bothers him in the world. It could be in your community, it could be on your block, it could be in the world.

Making a positive difference. He does something about it. He doesn't get a Twitter and bitch in mode about it. So it is getting arguments. There was none of that no lecturing to any of us of us. And it's really just someone after what he thought, right? Does something about it. And then he plays. He makes time to play. Sure. And then gets enough quality of time with his family. Yeah. I'm like, that's a full day. That's a great life right here. And then you add that over time, that's a full of life. Yeah, sure. You just got to go to his grave, like having lived a cool life.

Yes. And I really took that away. I've been applying that, you know. Yeah, the Stokes talk about how also what momentum worry does is you don't think about like, how do I want my life to be? You think how do I want my day to be? Because this day is itself a complete life, right? So he's not saying on Tuesdays, I work out, and Thursdays, I see my family on Fridays, I do this. He's saying, how do I do? How do I have a good enough selection of all the things that provide meaning and challenge

and connection and happiness and fun? And how do I set up a day to do it? So if today is the end, then I had a great day and a great life. If I get to do it again tomorrow, that's awesome, right? So I think too many people think about like where they wanna end up in life. And they don't think how do I want to design my life day to day?

So that's the win, right? People work for years to sell a company to then have freedom, when really they'd probably be better off, the safer bet would be how do you design a work life balance that doesn't require a billion dollars at the end to do the stuff that you want? Yeah, and it's funny because I met, you know, I'm both no enough to highly suggest to people.

It's someone from a longer way to figure it out. Yeah. And honestly, by that time, they matured enough that what they're projects of doing even better. Yeah. We have this myth off like the night year old, and I mean, look, it takes a certain little obsession, great, I think great. To be a mean, look, it takes a certain little obsession to create anything great. To be a writer, you have to be a crazy obsessed person, right?

Sure. You have to put in the hours, but over time, you realize the balance. I mean, that's what lets you create a body of work rather than that one off. You can't create the body of work. I mean, some writers did, but like, look at their lives. None of us want their lives.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. right. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You mentioned the family thing. You're like one of the nicest people I've met. You're the one that surprises me the most, not that you have to do these things or don't have to do these things.

But you're the one that surprises me the most that isn't married and has kids. Yeah. That's how it kind of worked out. You know, and I'll tell you one thing. This is actually one that's decision made in the hospital bed. Yeah. I was like, okay, this is, I'm actually very honest. I'm in the hospital, but it's my birthday.

Yeah, okay. I'm hooked up to a big day, taking me to the hospital. And then check in with the hospital in the hospital. It's no joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you know, yeah. It was really bad, right? And that's my house,

when they, they birthed in a hospital bed. My brother and a friend came to visit me and they left and I'm just there by myself. And I was like, dude, you have this long and illustrious life of falling in love, you know, falling deeply in love, it'd be wonderful, great, and then not working out, and then just being miserable, and then getting out, and then doing a Zoom.

Where did I get you? And the answer was in a hospital room alone on your birthday by yourself. Sure. And you know what I did? All right, you know what the definition of anxiety is, right? You've been trying to get in here. And you said, right?

So I was like, I dropped the desire. I literally dropped the desire. And with it, I'm not saying I'm not gonna have it. Because I'm very capable of having it, but I'll tell you freedom and happiness, like inner happiness and lightness is from dropping desires. I drop that desire and it's like the world's open up to me and that I read if I want.

So I'm actually just playing. I like, look, I just got my life I can year ago. I'm like a kid. Yeah, I'm like a kid who's running around. It's a sign to be here and wrapping Christmas presents every day. Like when you lose your health, I'm badly. When you get it and you have, you know, you like, like you have like and I built resources so I can do whatever I want You know I work hard, but I do whatever I want like you were literally like it's it's Christmas

I you know you won't live your life like it's Christmas. So that comes great But if not I have wonderful nephews that I had to or you know that's like and you know women are There's plenty of wonderful women in this planet that are. Well, no, it's like, I use this analogy sometimes, but it's like it's like golf. The harder you try it, golf, the worse you are at the more. Right? And I think to go to your point about samurai or shooting or archery, it's sometimes it's

your intense desire to do it a certain way that actually disrupts the flow or the rhythm or the naturalness of it. And so the letting go of the willful will as the Buddhist call it might actually open you up to do the thing that you are supposedly relinquishing. Yeah, I'm not looking for it. Yeah. And you know, it's like what is it? Like suffering comes from like not having what you desire. So if you try to put desire,

you're just open. Sure. It's all separate. You can still get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's also a bit of, and blocking this earth with an open feeling like you're open, rather than you're seeking is a far internally is oh my god it's the best. Yeah well I also imagine that the need or the desperation is the wrong word but the the wanting is the expectation of a thing it must it probably does cloud the energy and the decisions and the thinking about each thing it makes it harder to just be fully present in whatever moment that you're in.

Yeah, and be open to whoever may come. Sure, right? It's the same in business, it's the same in everything. Like, it's hard to do. But yeah, they had it right thousands of years ago. We just have to basically just read what they said and apply it versus learn it to hardware ourselves They had it right thousands of years ago. We just have to basically just read what they said and apply it versus learn it the hardware ourselves.

And that's the right books about it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I do hope another book comes from it because that is the unique skill that you have we sort of relaying those experiences that taking the specific and making it universal. I do hope you do it again. Thank you. You know what? I will strongly consider it. It means a lot, man. I really appreciate it. Oh, you're the best. You are, man. It's been a pleasure. And look, I said this before you started recording, but look, I didn't say this part. I've known you for about a decade now. This is like before any of you started with that, we started okay, my whatever. Before you're observable, what was the first one?

Was it the obstacle? Yeah. Right. And so after trusting online, which is actually how I didn't know you then, but I actually like for you to the pre-safry order Yeah, I got the large bundle so I can have a call with you which we never did This is the call. Yeah, yeah, so like this guy is sharp. I want to meet him right I mean the meeting and becoming friends and then watching You know like how you just kept at it kept at it and the body of work you've built and how you're living your life actually expressing the values

that it's it's incredible. I'm so like honored to be a friend. Likewise, man. Likewise. Thank you. Hey, it's Ryan. Thank you for listening to the Daily Stoic podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's amazing to us that over 30 million people have downloaded these episodes in a couple years. We've been doing it. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it, and this isn't to sell anything. I just wanted to say. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and add free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.