The Daily Stoic - Keita Bates-Diop on Destigmatizing Mental Health and Doing What You Love | These Things Have No Power Over You

Episode Date: June 15, 2022

Ryan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to NBA Spurs basketball player Kieta Bates-Diop about his journey getting into the NBA, what he’s learned playing for coach Gregg Popovich, doing what you do you because you love it not for money, and more.Keita Bates-Diop is a pro basketball player for the NBA’s San Antonio Spurs. He played college basketball for the Ohio State Buckeyes. Despite several setbacks and challenges throughout his career, Keita has been able to excel because of his relentless work ethic and mindset. He was a bench player as a freshman at OSU in the 2014–15 season. As a sophomore, he expanded his role on the team, but as a junior, he suffered a stress fracture in his left leg, sitting out all but the first nine games, while the Buckeyes limped to a 17–15 record without him. He was granted a medical redshirt and came into his redshirt junior campaign one of the top options for new coach Chris Holtmann. Keita went on to finish his college career being named a multi-time Big Ten Player of the Week and player of the year for Ohio State. At the beginning of his professional career, Keita experienced another set-back due to illness and started in the NBA G League, but in 2018 he came back and was drafted by the Timberwolves.Blinkist takes top nonfiction titles, pulls out the key takeaways and puts them into text and audio explainers called Blinks that give you the most important information in just 15 minutes. Go to Blinkist.com/STOIC to start your free 7 day trial and get 25% off of a Blinkist Premium membership.80,000 Hours is a nonprofit that provides free research and support to help people have a positive impact with their career. To get started planning a career that works on one of the world’s most pressing problems, sign up now at 80000hours.org/stoic.DECKED truck bed tool boxes and cargo van storage systems revolutionize organization with a heavy-duty in-vehicle storage system featuring slide out toolboxes. DECKED makes organizing, accessing, protecting, and securing everything you need so much easier. Get your DECKED Drawer System at Decked.com/STOIC and get free shipping.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives.

But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wonderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Stoics talk, of course, about self-improvement a lot. That is the purpose of philosophy in many ways, to get better each and every day.

And I think the Stoics were pretty unanimous in their belief that reading is a way to do that. And that's why I love today's sponsor, Blinkist. Blinkist is a way to get better, smarter, and to do it faster in 2022. Blinkist has takeaways from some of the best books on the topic of self-improvement. Books that were written by friends of mine that have recommended many times. Mark Manson's The Settle Art of Not Giving A Fuck. James Clears, Atomic Habits, Tim Ferris's The Four Hour Body, and more.

They also, of course, have my books as well. When I read a book, what I'm really looking for is like one nugget, one insight, one thing I can take away. And if you don't have time to read as much as I do, Blinkist is a great way to just get that. The sort of 15-minute summaries of these books, interviews with the authors where they really go in depth at the core, the crux of what the author is trying to say. Now, I don't think that's enough. I think you should also go read the book, but Blinkist is a great way to tackle reading in 2022, to read more, to read faster. One of the things I do when I tackle a really big complicated book is I want to read a review, listen to a summary, read the Wikipedia

page so that when I actually do get the book, I know what I'm looking for, and I've got a base of knowledge to start with. Right now, Blinkist has a special offer just for our audience. Go to Blinkist.com slash stoke to start your free seven day trial. You can get a 25% off Blinkist Premium membership. That's Blinkist B-L-I-N-K-I-S-T Blinkist.com slash slash dog to get 25% off a free seven day trial at blinkus.com slash dog. These things have no power over you. So much has happened in the past. We've messed up. We've been hurt. We've missed opportunities and we've embarrassed ourselves. So much can happen in the future. All those

same mistakes can happen again plus the uncertainty of the weather, the economy, politics, all of these loom in front of us. It's amazing that anyone can get anything done with all that occupying their mind, indeed that's sort of the point. The Stokes knew that a person kicking themselves over what has happened or biting their nails over what might happen is a person who is not busy with life. It's a person who is not able to be philosophical, productive, or present. As Marcus Aurelius wrote to himself, and by extension to us, we have to limit our focus. Remind yourself that past and future have no power over you," he said, only the present,

and even that can be minimized. Just mark off its limits. And if your mind tries to claim that it can't hold out against that, well, then heep shame upon it. The key is to focus on what is immediately in front of you. Don't be intimidated by the past or the future. Don't be distracted by them either. Even the troubles on your plate can be minimized if you break them into smaller pieces. Don't worry about the big busy day. You have to get through. Just get through the morning. Just get through the first item on your to-do list.

Mark off limits. And if you're mind wanders, if you start to get distracted, say to yourself, come on, I am better than this. I'm just going to focus on what's in front of me. That's plenty. And that's what Mark has spent by heaping shame. So get out there and get after it. A couple of months ago, somebody sent me this article

and it was about a person who stoicism had changed their life. And there's this quote at the end of the article that I think is a fantastic summation of stoicism. And the person they said, I've been trying to get stronger, believe in giving and avoid being emotional. The secret to stoicism is acceptance. Acceptance of what happens. Acceptance of things that are controllable and uncont being emotional. The secret to stoicism is acceptance. Acceptance of what happens.

Acceptance of things that are controllable and uncontrollable. Distinguishing what is controllable and what is not is a huge challenge. And he says, but look, it's a lifelong pursuit. I don't think anyone can accomplish it, but as long as you keep working hard, there will always be some days that belong to you. That's just that is what stoicism is about. Trying to create some days or maybe just some moments that belong to you. And the person who said that is not a philosopher, they're not a world leader, they're a professional basketball player. This is today's guest, Kita Bates D.O. And I happen to know some people at the Spurs. I've had managed. No, but on the podcast, I've had

Parcy Bufer, the GM, and now the CEO of the Spurs on the podcast. I gave a talk for one of the owners of the Spurs. It's an organization I'm endlessly fascinated with. It has a great culture and love learning. So it makes sense that Stoicism would have made his way there, but we'll get into how Kita had first heard of Stoicism, but in today's episode. But I was just, so I just loved that, and I thought, I got to talk to this guy, and so I've having him on the podcast. And you might see Kita as, of course, he's a professional basketball player. He's always been great things have always gone well for him, but it's more complicated than that. Keita's had an interesting NBA journey as we talk about. Right now we play for the San Antonio Spurs,

and if you'd watched him play at Ohio State where he was player of the year, one year, multi-time, big 10 player of the week, you might have expected, of course he's going to end up playing in the pros. But there was real adversity between those two things in his life. He fractured his leg, had to sit out all but nine games. It was a medical red shirt. And then after he graduated, he got sick and ended up having to go after he was drafted by the Timberwolves. He had to start in the G League, which is like sort of double A or triple A,

equivalent of the NBA. But he's had this fascinating journey, and I wanted to talk to him about that. And so that's why I wanted to have Keeta on the podcast. You can follow him on Instagram at ke-E-I-T-A-B-D. You can follow him. Hopefully we'll see him on the court this season. And I expect continued impressive, awesome play from him. And hopefully, Stoicism will be a part of that journey. Enjoy.

Well, look, I'm really excited to do this. I was trying to think about where we might start. How did you get introduced to Stoicism? Did somebody give you one of my books? What was your introduction? So actually, it would have been six, years ago, it's probably six, seven years ago, you went on the breakfast club.

Yeah, I was Charlemagne and all of them. And I used to listen to a show kind of often. And then you went on. And I was like, so I have to pretty understand. show kind of often and then you went on and I was like, so I have to pre-interesting. I really heard you were anything like that. And now I got, I think you had obstacles the way on, or you go to the enemy, I think was a bookie talk. And I listened to it and I was asked every like, dope like costus. I dove into a little bit more and that's when I started and I branched out from there. So were you still playing it Ohio State then or when, when was this?

Yeah, it was the little high-o-state. That would have been my, the summer, I think the summer in between must have been reaching a year, so 26th of the year. That's so funny. Yeah, it's weird. The Seven of Us people asked like why I go on those shows. Obviously, I actually really like Charlemagne,

but people, they don't seem to think like that that would be philosophical or something. But then you end up reaching people or connecting with people that you would have no idea would be like interested in what you're talking about. That's the whole point. Oh, yeah. That's actually the point is like the meeting of two different like worlds essentially because then you talk about Robert Green and I got into other laws of power after that and all that so it was like it helped me a lot just see that whole other side like things mentally. So yeah and it's funny because Charlemagne's like a huge reader that's how I met Charlemagne because he had posted a picture of Ego's the enemy on Instagram one time and we got we got

connected but he does I think he actually does a really good job on that show. Obviously he's always interested in what will be the huge news story and he's always recording content for you or whatever. But then he kind of like sneaks in all these authors and books that he likes. For sure, that was so like weird and bad

because I was pretty tuned in back then to like not weekly but enough. So when you got on there was very different from what I was normally used to say as you artist or as somebody like that, I was like an author. I was kind of weird, but I'm so glad I was into it. Yeah, I remember when I went on the show, I was like, is this the chair that Birdman was like,

you gotta put some respect on my neck? And it's like, it is. And it's like, man, how did they get all the, because my favorite part of that interview is like, there was like, when he asked to like sneak out, do you know what I'm talking about? He's like, he's like, he's like, he's like,

he's like, there's not enough room in the studio. Cause I look at him like, that studio isn't that big, but there's like, no, and people in there like, standing as this is going on.

There's no way like you can get out of here easily. That's so funny. You know, I have a weird Birdman story. I was supposed to work on this book with Birdman like many years ago. And so I was like traveling around with them. And he's like, oh, I want you to meet my friend. And I like sort of look up.

And then to Marcus Cousins is just on the bus bus and I was like, oh, this is really weird Yeah, it was so strange because I grew up I was a huge Kings fan So all I wanted to talk about was his brief time on the king He wasn't he didn't have very fond memories of the king He still got talks about it. So then that's not very fun That's so weird like we're like when you just meet random people and they know other people that you would think that they would be friends as it is in the years, when you like travel around, see people. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You, you, and you don't realize that

it's actually a pretty small world out there. And like people who are doing interesting things tend to know people who are doing interesting things. then all of a sudden you're just bumping into like the most random people. The most random for athletes, the authors, and directors, and this little random rate and the age doesn't really matter. You get there from 18 to 70, and it will just transform all of a sudden.

You know what's funny though is, is so your story of being introduced to stoicism which is that you were listening to like a pop radio show in college and it connected you to a book. My introduction to stoicism, I was in college, I was a sophomore I think, so like you, and I went to this conference, and I don't know if you know who Dr. Drew is.

When I was a kid, the big radio, when I was a kid, I'm not that much older than you, but the radio show that everyone in my generation listened to was this radio show called Love Line, which was on from 10 to 12 p.m. every night. And it was like people would call him with like sex questions or drug questions, whatever. And there was this radio host named Dr. Drew

and Adam Kruel was the other host. And anyways, I went to this conference when I was in college and I went up to him afterwards and I was like, you seem smart. What books do you like? You know, and he told me to read the Stoics. That's, and that, so my introduction to Stoicism also came from the radio. It was crazy. Radio radio was not dead. Radio radio was not at all. Very much alive.

But I think obviously other people in college were listening to the Breakfast Club, other people were going to think. But I had this habit then of like, I just really wanted good book recommendations, or I was open to reading things at that time. Were you a big reader in college? Like, what made you hear a book on the radio and go, oh, I'm actually going to, I'm actually going to check that out.

So I would read like a decent amount like high school and college, I would actually read the recommended books for class for just like outside of classic. If you wanted to like know more about the subject, so I would. Yeah. But then I think you're telling the story where what connected it for me, like outside of classics, if you wanted to, like, know more about the subjects I would. Yeah. But then I think you're telling the story, weren't what connected it for me, to hear about the stories and all that.

It sounds like not kind of boring, but if you're not really into it, you're not gonna spend jump into it. So obviously I'm like 19, 20 at the time, you're talking about kayak. And it's like, oh, like this is like something I got late to, so that got me hooked. That's why I really like your books too,

because you can make the connection between way, way back to stories today, so the 1900s, 2000s, whatever it is. So I'm not carrying this fashion, all I can't stop all the, oh, so that was the connection that got me like really, really into it. Kind of is such a good example, or a complicated example of it because you know when you say like ego is the enemy for instance, I think people think like oh that your argument is like

oh if you have an ego you can't be successful. I mean I'm sure you've encountered many many egotistical people in the NBA who are extremely successful and well paid at what they do. It's more like it just makes life harder than it needs to be and it makes you not as good as you can be. Right. That's pretty much it. That's how I learned it at that point. Like at that first of all, I read there a thought about I was like, oh, you shouldn't have

it. You go. No, it's good to have one, but in moderation and like balance and nowhere, you're kind of cap for it. in this, you know. Well, I've got to imagine it was a weird journey for you because you were really good at Ohio State, but then you ended up in the G league instead of in the league itself, which I'm again old enough to remember that not that many years ago. I think what I wrote ego, it was called the D league. And it had, which was such a terrible name because it had this connotation as not being,

like somehow being like detention or like, what do you want to learn? Yeah, exactly. But then, and then you worked your way up from there, but I've got to imagine there was a part of you that was like, you knew you were good enough to be in the NBA, but then you also had to earn it and fight, you've had to claw your way into it at the same time. Is this thing all?

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Hey prime members, you can listen early and app free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today. Absolutely. So like I was going back and forth a lot in my rookie years. So that's like just testing the mind already. But like you said, so back then when it was the Dele, it was way, way worse in terms of this, I don't say worse,

because the conditions are still better than most. But compared to the NBA, it's nowhere near the same lifestyle that every day kind of grinds everything. It was way, way harder. So but then when I went to Gatoray and all that, they shift to the G-League, it kind of put a better emphasis

on the player development and just helping me get closer to the NBA and such a tall level in life. So now I think the statter would ever play off to the NBA in general, like over 50% of the league has had some G or a daily experience now. So that conversation isation slowly slowly going away But yeah, definitely wasn't hit early because I didn't think I would go down it all I'd be there at all Off what I did in school, but then you get there and it's like oh one in all alone Most people outside like you know LeBron those kind of guys have had to deal with it at some point

So you guys kind of it's humbling, but you know you're among peers and friends essentially. Have you read the book Boys Among Men? I have that. I'll send you a link to it. It's really interesting. It was about that generation of players that went directly from high schools to the pros, which now you can't do. You know, you have to take a year or whatever. But in the book, they tell this story of this guy in duty e.b., I don't know if you've heard of him. He was one of the last players to be drafted from high school into the pros

and he was drafted by the Timberwolves, which I think you were also, right? Yeah, right. And they were like, this guy could be the next Kevin Garnett. So clearly they had a sense that you could develop a high school player into a great player, but they knew that it took time. And I think he was like a little skinny or maybe a little younger. They had this plan for this guy.

And the plan was like, we're going to send him to what was then the D-league. And he was like, nope. He's him to what was then the D-league. And he was like, nope, he's like, I'm not a D-league player. He's like, under no circumstances am I gonna do it. He's like, I'm good enough to be in the pros. I can be all these guys. And so they dropped him. And he ended up, I think he plays in like Turkey now. He basically never ended up making it into the pros really.

But he would like everyone that sees him that knows the story. And I was talking to Chris Bosh about him. He's like, no, no, this guy was definitely good enough. He could have gone the distance. But he was so overwhelmed or like turned off to the notion of being a developmental player that he didn't develop and it cost him, you know, it changed the course of his life. Well for sure, that's the kind of humbling part of it, where it's like a development

norm ready now. Well most guys really aren't ready immediately when they could draft. Some guys are lucky enough that they can play through it, but most now, and I think the leads are a really good job of getting that connotation and negative connotation away from, if you go down, one of them means you actually care about if you're wanting to develop, because we're sitting down there so far, whether it's the second half of the season or after all the start of the following year, you're ready immediately when you come in. Especially back then, there was not that that sense between the players and the front-office

or coaches back then. It was like, it's just sit down there. Even though they may mitch it that way, it definitely did not come across that way. Yeah, it's so funny. It's like if you hurt your knee and they're like, we're going to send you to rehab, you would never be like, I'm not a rehabilitation player. You would never, you would, you would never object to any of the other forms of improvement or recovery or growth. But as soon as it, as soon as it implies that somehow you're deficient or that you could get better, we're like, nope, I'm out.

Oh, well, so no, I'm ready. I don't need to, I'm the room ready now. No, it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to go to rehabilitation. It's not bad being to go to the development league or to the legal league. It is not a bad thing at all. Yeah, who was it? Is it Sir Jabonka? He went on purpose. Yeah, he asked to go down because he was, once he was hurt or was, I know, about something was back and he was out for really, really long time. He'd already been the lead for 10 plus years champion, highly respected by everybody. So when he said that, when I saw that, I'm told him when you did that last, that was

really, really big for someone of his stature that would be like, I need to go down, I need these reps before I'm ready to go. I think the clip is, I think it's still with before I get back with the big scene. So that, that right there for a guy like that to say that that is, I think a lot of guys coming in every draft year and you didn't need to see that or have these read that story. Yeah, I think he'd made like a hundred million dollars in salary up until that point. Yeah, because I don't care. I need to, I need to stream me. I'm a personal development still. Well, you think about it like in comedy, right? Like when a comedian, when Chris Rock is going to do a stadium tour or an arena tour, he doesn't book an arena and then perform all new material in front

of that crowd. He works in these tiny little clubs until he knows it can kill there and then he grow. But it's weird that in certain areas of our life, we understand the need to step back and learn something and do it in a safe space. but then in other areas, usually when other people are looking at it or it has a connotation, again, that it's the D league versus the G league, somehow that makes a difference to whether we're willing to be associated with it or not. Especially like for basketball,

we work pretty much most of our entire lives, or if you start later, if you're teenager, you've put in all the hours and work. So when you get to the NBA level, you feel like, I'm ready, I did 10 plus years. And like, you're actually not ready. You just yet. So like, what do you, I just said all of this for not

nothing, but you're like, it kind of like halty for a second. You know, like, especially stuff you put really a lot of time in, like, I was in no way, there's no way I'm not ready yet. Yeah, I've got to imagine that was difficult for you. It's probably difficult for every athlete, because it's like in high school, you're the best athlete around, and that's why you got recruited to these schools.

And then all of a sudden, you're not the best, right? You're surrounded by other great people. And then if you manage to become the best there, then you get drafted or you sign with the protein, you were the best, and now you're the worst again, you're not the worst. But you have that adjustment of like reaching a new altitude and having to get out acclimated,

that must be weird on your psyche. It's super weird weird because like so, like pretty much aren't my entire life up until maybe freshman year of college, but then definitely after it was me and I was no worse than the third best, like on any team I was on no worse. So you get to the NBA and it's like one of the good things that they told us coming in, 80% of the league is role players. Essentially, you're not going to be the star.

That's LeBron, Kyrie on the calves, it's Clay, Steph, Dremelon, and then everybody else. They're not really good roles, Kevin Dremel, really good role players. But you're not going to be the star. Most of us are not going to be the star ever again in our NBA careers. So that's a hard pill to swallow because you've been the stars for 10, 15 years of our lives. And that's honestly swallowing that is the hardest part or while a lot of guys don't make it. And then some guys do. Some guys accept it, some guys fight it. And they're going to have really good long careers overseas on a Gilly whatever it is, but they won't be here in this league

just because the simple fact they can't take a backseat or they're all willing to be a concoct lesser role than what they used to. It was that a conversation you had to have with yourself is you had to go like, hey, I'm like, you had to go, I'm part of the 80 or is it, I'm only temporarily part of to go, I'm part of the 80 or is it, I'm only temporarily part of the 80 until I become part of the 20,

like how did you, how did you have to wrestle with that? It's actually a given take because I'm confident wise and ego wise, pretty much all NBA players, if you often, not off the court, but in the off season, we go at each other, right? Like when the off season runs, that we feel like we compete with anybody from all started before 150 to the guy early.

But once you get to your team, you have to understand that, okay, it's his and his team, and then I play off of them, right? So in any time long, long, whatever it is, I feel like I can be the best. But when it comes to the game or practice, I have to know, I have to switch my mind mentally, that okay, I have to play, I have to do this, I to sacrifice myself for him, in order to get the team the best shot to win. As you know, I live on a farm out here in Texas, so I need a four-wheel drive truck, and I'm constantly throwing stuff in the back.

I've got tools and supplies and kids stuff and all of that. And the weather out here changes on a dime. It can rain out of nowhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. The decked drawer system helps you seize the day with two full bed length drawers that keeps your stuff organized, but also protected from the weather, from thieves, from rolling out while you're driving on the highway. It's awesome. It's backed by a lifetime no hassle warranty with second to none customer service at your back and call. Keep all your

stuff safe, secure, and protected in your truck like I do, grab the DectDrohr system at Dect.com slash Stoic with free shipping that's Dect.com slash Stoic, free shipping on your DectDrohr system Dect.com slash Stoic. Right, so that's actually something that Stoic's talked about, the idea that like we're actors in a play, and we have to accept what the architect or God or fate or whatever, what they assign to us.

Yeah. And that can be hard, though, because we want the starring role at all times. Like, who does that? Oh, for sure. If you ask anyone, they'd rather be the best actor than the best supporting actor in a movie, unless you want to get like a great movie of all time or a championship team than everybody is awarded at that point as opposed to just another guy on an okay team.

Right. Yeah, so the tension is knowing, like if you know, hey, in the gym, in the Aussies, and I'm just as good as all of these people, but the way it shakes out, I have to accept a rule that is lesser. That requires, weirdly, it requires humility, but you could also say that it requires confidence, because you have to be able to say, like, it requires humility, but you could also say that it requires confidence because you have to be able to say, like, I'm cool with who I am, the fact that I'm coming off the bench versus being a starter, I'm on this team instead of this team, it's not a reflection of who I am. No, I has nothing to do with if he was a person.

And to take it, I got a, like team USA is filled with the 24 best or what not 24, uh, like 12 or 14 best NBA players. Like they already 99% of their lives are the best. But then on here, they're like, okay, I might, I might not play on this team or I might not like, I'll play 10 minutes. And there's only what, try three or four that can cycle abroad and mellow when they play the Olympics They're the only ones among a lot of a couple others Kobe Dway all those guys that could play the normal minutes or they could play the normal styles Actually, they had to change their game for team USA and that that's a hard for the spot

Even for those guys. I was actually just talking about this to someone who works for me. I was like, my company, my business, like how I, I was like, this, we use the triangle offense. That's what we, that, I was like, this is a metaphor, but I was like, we use the triangle offense. It's a system. You have to figure out how to accommodate yourself

to the, to the system. I was like, none of us are Kobe Bryant's. None of us just seem to be like, no, no, no, no. I'm just going to be the center of it. Everyone else figures it out. There is a certain amount of flexibility and both confidence and humility to go like, this is the system.

The system is designed to make the team successful as a unit, but it won't work unless each individual can agree to and stick with the system. And by the way, if you're so egotistical that you keep breaking out of the offense, you're not only punishing yourself, but you're screwing with everyone else because now they can't do what they need to do. Exactly. The Trigger Lawvin's the perfect example because it literally won't do what they need to do. Exactly. The triangle office looks perfect example because it literally won't work unless everybody's

on the same page. Now I'm in the pre-match all the time. So everybody else in the triangle had to figure that out. The triangle office is a hard office to run because it requires a little give and take out of everybody on the floor at all times. There's no one that's not a part of it. No one's a stand in the corner,

not doing anything. Everyone has to participate. Yeah, yeah. And it's like you know objectively the Triangle offense works because it built two of the greatest teams in the history of the NBA. And yet each one of us wants to go,

why are we doing this? Just give me the ball and let me do what I'm able to do. It's just crazy to think about because two of the greatest teams, Dynasties, Ever and Rana, but it's so hard for other people or teams or coaches or whatever to grasp of constant. Now, the tribal office probably wouldn't work into a day's game, but it's thinking about what the Warriors often spread the closest thing in terms of if it's working as a working and it can be beat. That's hard for the other 29 changes to adapt to in today's game.

Well, and we like to think it would be easier and better to just be able to do it ourselves. But I got to imagine there's moments, not always, where Kevin Durant's like, why the fuck did I leave the Warriors again? Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's so much more complicated. Oh, yeah. And that's what you want to do. You want to over there and ran through them. Like it was not fair. Yeah, I was. They were unstoppable. That's not. I was there the last year. My first year was the last year when he got her in the playoffs. my first year was the last year when he got hurt in the playoffs. But the first time we played, and I was like, there's no way, there's no team that could beat this offense. There's no way. And I didn't, I mean, I was off until you got hurt. They were probably going to win.

I'm almost going to say that I probably would have been Toronto, but you're looking at it's like, man, like, that is an unbeatable way to play. Yeah, it's funny. Pat Riley talks about this. He wrote this book called The Winter Within many years ago. And he was saying that, you know, there's this innocent climb. That's when we come together and we're willing to like give things up, sacrifice, be part of a team, follow a system. And then once we start winning, he says, then the disease of me kicks in.

And the disease of me is like, I want to do this on my own, or like, I'm not getting as many looks as I could, or should, or Kyrie's case, like, why does LeBron James get to have his friends fly in the team playing? And I don't, or whatever the thing is, you know, and then all of a sudden you get what you want, but it's not actually what you want. I don't know if it came from that book or whatever, but I think he said something like, it's

easy to sacrifice whatever until I know people say all the time. It's easy to sacrifice until you have to or really like that. Oh, it sounds good. We should all do this that I would ever until it's your turn to take it back so you're going to be second or third option with everything. Well, I think actually, Popovich said this, which was, like, you've only ever not won once, right?

So then once you win, everything is different, right? Like, you've only been the underdog. You can only be a person who hasn't won for so long, because then if you do win, everything's different, and then it's hard to get yourself, like that's what I think is so impressive about surge going back to the G-League. He didn't, it wasn't like, hey, you gotta go to the G league if you want a shot in the NBA. It was, you have to do this, you can do this, you should do this even though you've already done all this stuff.

It's hard to do it later to eat the humble pie and later. Absolutely, I mean, that's what, last time I was the first time I was like, that is so rare that he the player like that with asked to go down usually when players of 10 plus years, even six or seven, they did. Let me get hurt. They come back. I'm going to do the practice stuff, you know, with the team, where you're scrimmaging with whoever's not playing all kind of stuff, but to ask to go down and play a real game that I've just time to think ever since you brought up, I don't think I've heard of that exact situation.

And again, I'm maybe in baseball. I think baseball has like a slightly healthier relationship with the minor leagues. Yeah. How many, like a lot of leagues though, we only have two. They have seven or eight or something like that. I mean, but football doesn't even have one at all, right? So, that's how you're the hardest for the thing. Because if you're not playing a football,

you are not playing like that. You can't football the hard sports to just even like play like, you can play basketball every day and be fine. You can't play football every day and be fine. Well, you can practice basketball on your own, right? Yeah. You can't practice being an inside linebacker.

Like it's a very hard thing to get reps on. Absolutely. Like, I don't know what they do. I got to go to a week, but the guys are playing for weeks at a time. Like it's a lift or whatever, I guess. I don't know exactly what a football practice for you and I fell, what's like. Well, you know what I was just thinking is another example where like the name of it matters

to people, it's like people would talk to a coach or they would talk to a sports psychologist. But if they were like, you should go to therapy, like people would be like, and I don't need therapy. But like the name changes, like one seems like it's, it's what elite performers do to get better. And the other seems like something for sick people

or broken people, but they're the same thing. The exact same thing, he just changed the name. Like for psychology, the very recent term, right? Like relative to therapy or therapist, because that mold is still being broken, where I say, oh, I'm going to talk to the, I stand going to talk to the sports therapist, but not you say, I'm like, I'm just going to therapy.

I thought it's all this. Like, it's just the same thing. Just getting stuff off my chest, off my mind, with somebody who's licensed to talk to me about it. That's all it is. Yeah, I know. And it's like, oh, but this is like works paying for it. And it's like, yeah, but if you have health insurance,

your work is paying for it also, right? Like it's still, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and it's this sports for us, corn, cold sports, you know, therapy for us, but for everybody else and say, oh, it's just therapy with still, it's just negative tone to it. But I'm glad I think we're getting over, which is glad I just felt mental health and all that kind of stuff going on, or people

being at least more accepting of it, which is good. But yeah, the just determined so, D.L.E. Geely, sports, or sports psychologists and therapy is just two totally different things in the mind. Yeah, I think it's like you got to get to a place where you're so hungry that like you don't care what shit's called if it makes you better. You know what I mean? Or what it looks like if it makes you that's what epictetus is like if you want to improve, you have to be willing to be seen as foolish or ignorant, right? Like you have like there is no progress without some level of embarrassment or vulnerability or humility. So if you let your

posture and get in the way of that or block you from that, you're actually preventing yourself from being stronger and better. Absolutely. I think it varies per person to each person's kind of like goals or what it means to like not be embarrassed like for some people being unjaffed and making a roster is enough versus being drafted later and not playing. Making the roster then playing a little or going back to the Glee versus like a top 15 pick, playing and coming off the bench versus playing and starting. You know, top two pick getting rookie all that kind of stuff

It gait is very very different somebody else's if you took a Unjaffed player or an unjaffed unsigned player in the awesome you starting that's way different Mentally already than somebody who's in the first round and then they're not playing or first round and then they're only playing a little bit But you know, it's also not even just athletes. A friend of mine is the coach of the Thunder. And he was previously the coach of the Thunder's G League team. But he was like coaches would rather be an assistant coach for an NBA team for years than then go get hands-on experience actually being in charge of a team

and calling plays because one seems more prestigious than the other. Yeah, you didn't know if you wanted to be a head coach, you should do it once in high-coach the experience probably. I was guessing I'll admit. You know, with one of them head coach, the experienced first, you have some guys, you know, I want some head coach and experience first. You have some guys, you know, or are blessed or they're good enough that they don't have to. But most people need some head coach and experience somewhere else before they take an NBA head coach and go, yeah, you want to get reps. You want to get reps.

I mean, I think, I think whatever you do, you have to figure out like what reps of that thing is and how you can get a lot of them. And ideally in as safe a place as possible. Right. You thought about the safety coaching in the Zee League. The pressure is way less than the pressure that you would get as a NBA head coach way. You could try different things out.

I remember I think it was nurse in Toronto. He was NBA head coach way, you could try different things out. I remember, I think it was nurse in Toronto. He was the head coach on G-League and they said he was just try stuff out. Like you're not supposed to help off strong side corner. He would do it just because to see like what the other player at other teams would do. And now he's one of the best coaches in the league. And I think he's probably said on the record multiple times that he wouldn't be the coach he is. If he didn't get that experience first. Well, I think about this with my writing. So I do these two daily emails.

I do the daily stoke email and I do the daily daddy email. And it's free, it's a lot of work. But people go, oh, why do you do it? And it's like, well, what I enjoy doing it. But it's also an incredible amount of reps, right? Like, you think of every day I have to write and publish something, and a lot of the authors I know work on like one book every three or four years, right? So they're not like, like, I, it's like, I have aged,

I, it's like, I'm aging in dog years, and they're aging in human years. Like, I'm, I'm on a faster cycle, and I'm getting better as a result. I think how you can figure out how to speed up that cycle is really, really important. Absolutely. I reps is the biggest thing I think in most walks of life like getting reps. So you shouldn't take a lot of time off like multiple years, not writing a book or for me, multiple days, not being in the gym, sunk a pass. You need a lot of reps to get the confidence in the bill.

Muscle memory or bill, new thoughts or ideas, whatever it may be, like reps is pretty standard and whatever walk of life. What have you learned playing for pop? He seems like a very intense guy. He is, he's super intense because he cares so much. He wants to win, but also cares about us as people. We'll talk about basketball one time, but then I'll talk about what's going on in Ukraine for X amount of time. He goes back and forth, or whatever else

to go on. It really does not matter to him. He's such an intelligent guy. But then aside from basketball, you could just talk from a normal person. Like you forget kind of who he is sometimes, which is great to because he could be so much different. He could be, and he's a Hall of Fame coach, one of the greatest, if not the greatest of all time. He could be, in fact, completely different than what he does, which is kind of not shocked to me because I heard good things before I got there, but he's everything and more in the person that you think you. I went to again, this was maybe a couple of seasons ago. This was still when Tim Duncan was an assistant coach, and I was sitting next to RC Duford, who I think was still the GM had transitioned to CEO role. Anyways, although I just saw him over the weekend and he says he was very excited that we were talking.

But anyways, he was like, watch this pop's gonna get thrown out of the game. Like the spurs, you guys had been like pretty lack luster the whole game. You might have been there. And he gets thrown out forces Tim Duncan to take over. And then you guys almost win the game. You come back from a huge deficit and almost win the game. But I thought it was so it was like, oh, it wasn't like he was

so pissed off. He got thrown out of the game. It was that he knew the team was lacking energy. And he got thrown out on purpose just to shake things up and I was like, that is someone who has been around a very long time and is in so control of themselves that he's just like pulling the puppet strings. Oh my God, yes. So that was a year before I got there. I remember watching that when it happened

but then when I got there, I was like, you know, he was really in tune with the team one and they needed like a post routine and no way to win to do it. Because most, most coaches could not outthink we'll be able to get away with that and have the outcome almost, you know, outcome, not be what you want from the beginning. I was thinking three, four steps ahead. I can't play well. What can I do? I try all these other options. I think you kicked out. I mean, you give us the best chance to win the game, which is like, I use this, it's just crazy to think about that. That's a piece of coaching for Al and the hell of Al and the 40 years, whatever it is. Like that's knowledge that you cannot teach you something or over X amount of time.

Yeah, and I think it was like somebody told me he winked at Tim Duncan like as he was leaving. Like he was so in control of himself and he was like, like even acknowledging that he was doing it as he was doing it. Oh yeah, that's, that's, he did that this year too. Actually he winked when he got us, we're on a, I think about it. But yeah, that is like, because you think, I, he did that this year too. Actually, he went to when he got us around, I think about it.

But yeah, that is like, because you think, I know he's, he is mad at some time. You know, you get, I always get mad at it. But he gets mad, but then there's a deeper meaning behind it. Like it's a deeper, okay, I'm mad, but let's turn it around this way. Like you can be upset about it. And then when the game's over the next day, it's gone. We're on to the next thing. All the still looks were active in life, trying to make a difference,

trying to have a positive impact on the world. They were suspicious of the pen and in floss, there's people who just wrote about stuff. We didn't do it. But we've talked before about how you're only on this planet for like 4,000 weeks. Let's say you work for 40 years of that time. That's 40 hours a week,

50 weeks a year, 40 years, that's 80,000 hours. Your career is roughly 80,000 hours. It's a lot of time, but it's also not a lot of time. You really can't afford to waste it, but if you dedicate yourself and end that time productively and effectively, you can have a huge positive impact in the world. You can serve the common good as the Stokes talk about. There's actually an awesome nonprofit called 80,000 hours that gives free research and support to help people create positive impact with their career. You can join their newsletter. They'll send you a free in-depth guide that takes you through all the steps, all the way to a concrete career plan. They host an awesome job board with nearly a thousand

open high impact career opportunities and they offer free one-on-one advice to a concrete career plan. They host an awesome job board with nearly a thousand open high impact career opportunities and they offer free one-on-one advice to help you switch paths. There's also a great 80,000 hours podcast which hosts super in-depth conversations with experts about how to best tackle pressing global problems. You can join the newsletter right now, get a free copy of their in-depth career guides, set right to your inbox, just sign up at 80,000hours.org slash stoic. That's 80, the number 80,000hours.org slash stoic, 80,000hours.org slash stoic. And just to be clear, they're a nonprofit and everything we provide is free always. They're fully philanthropically funded. Their only goal is to help you have more impact in your career with those 80,000 hours

that you have on this planet. To get started planning a career that works, well, sign up at 80,000hours.org. SASHDOT. Yeah, because it's like, if you get so mad that you can't control yourself that you're giving the other team points, right? Like that's anger being destructive.

But if you're able to say, I'm angry and nothing else is working, how can I target or channel this energy in such a way that it shakes things up? It seems like the same from the fan perspective, but it's actually very significantly different. It's very, very different. And that that I can't even begin to think about how it would go about doing something like that. That's a different level of thinking that he has and a couple of the coaches probably haven't really, but because it is literally a time thing.

Like he's one champion. He's been underdog, been all tied. Did all every spinning top to bottom, been on a bad team great all time great teams you've seen it all he knows how to react and pretty much every situation now may not come out to being a win in that time but if you do it over and over and over again the results will eventually speak for himself. Yeah no it takes a certain amount of self-control and discipline to be able to go like 51% of the time this works. Like people who count cards, they're not like, they're not like they figured out a secret that lets them win every time.

It's just statistically, on average, their thing will work. And you need to have the discipline and the patience to let it play out over a long period of time. And people don't have that kind of patience, I think, because like you said, like 51% of the time, if it works, mostly you're not going to take those eyes, but over time, if you do it, however long it takes, there's a whole summer, if it's a whole season, whatever it is, you do the right things over and over again, then it will eventually work, if you buy into it. Do you have that? Like, do you know, like, hey, like, if I shoot it from this spot on the court, I hit it 62% of the time. So you can kind of, not disassociate, but you can just like walk in and do it and then not feel it too much either way if it goes in or it doesn't go in or do you still struggle with that?

Yeah, definitely. minds and emotions, you have to take both into account, like just because it says that someone shoots for you, we're saying here, it doesn't mean that you're going to go four for 10 every single time. They may go one for 10 and then the next time I go seven, whatever it is, but I know if I shoot this floater or this corner three maker, miss, I'm going to make it most of the time. And then I'll be shot. I'm like, I don't feel I ask comfortable shooting these. I'll take them, but I know this isn't what I want to do more so, and that's kind of a whole giving it up for somebody else kind of thing. I know this is a mind normal shot, if I'm not going to just take this over and over, because I haven't built that level of confidence or that many reps with

this specific show. But actually, that kind of goes back to these humility and self-awareness thing where it's like, if you know that you hit this shot 52% of the time, but this guy hits the shot where he's standing 56% of the time, you have to be able to pass it, even though you're depriving yourself of a stat for a thing that majority of the time would go your way, but that fractional difference you have to be willing to accept.

Absolutely. I think the biggest example of that is Dremont on the Warriors. I think he's came out and said, I think he dick him out and say, why not? You know, he's that quote, but why would I take this shot when I see Steph running off this? And I know he's the greatest shooter of all time. I'm like, why would I? That doesn't make any sense. And I'm people are like,

oh, you should take it just cause. And I was like, no, he's kind of right. Like, you should probably give yourself up for it. And that's the greatest example ever. Obviously it was having stuff on your team, but that's what you said. Like he shoots this at 50% I shoot this at 2025. We do this over and over again, and now we have three championships.

We work out a fourth. But do the hard part about that is, okay, in five years when he's up for the Hall of Fame, and they're looking at his career stats, right? They're going to go, well, you only scored this minute. I mean, obviously, he's a shun. But what I mean is when people look at the totality of his career later, they're gonna be like, hey, he didn't score as many points as this person, this person. No one remembers back and goes, yeah, but those points he didn't score, he was just making it statistically more likely that Steph Curry would score those same points.

So I think we often think that being selfless in Game Theory, they call it the suckers payoff, that like you're basically screwing yourself, but like you have to ask yourself what's more important, the individual or the group or the collective goal, I guess. And the collective goal is to win as many games as well. Our win in short term, win this again, long term win the championship.

And that's been their whole thing the last seven or eight years. So if we do this, and then when they do, it's going to happen. It's absolutely going to happen about 15 years when he gets, he's a first baller for sure. But when he gets in, they're going to be like, well, in only average, in six and six, but then they're going to look and be like, at minimum three times, shame up, two times, I've been a player of the year, first team all, all these, all bunch of other things that weren't directly points, you know, I mean, I'm not scoring, but did probably everything else besides that?

Well, I was thinking about this because while we were talking, we were talking about, you know, would you go and did the G league or whatever. The other version of this is like, would you rather be a good teammate or would you rather be a starter? And a lot of people wouldn't take that trait. But I looked it up, I was like, I wonder how many games did Monu start versus play? And what do you think your guess is?

Like percentage wise, do you think of his games played? What percentage do you think he started? You know, I think I've actually looked it up like his career stats. I say at most, 25% at most. Yeah, it looks like he says. It says he played a thousand games and he started 349 of them.

It was probably because I should remember if I remember he started like one year like a lot like for a whole year and that's probably the chunk of that but your child memory is growing up. He was never like a starter. He was never like you know the two-gar on the team starting to get ready. He played 25-30 minutes and won a lot of games. Like it doesn't really doesn't really matter in the end. And it's funny to say that, because they ask us that in pre-draft, they ask us questions like that to get to know

where our minds are at or whatever, before they draft this, they'll ask questions like, would you rather be a starter or play a lot or confidence? Was you, how would you feel if we sent you down to the Glee for a lot of your rookie year or not at all, or was you rather be on the championship team or not play a lot or be on a terrible team and play, you know, 30 minutes. Like the questions that you would normally think about being asked when you're going into

these rooms, but they add, they, but they prep us beforehand. Like, hey, I would cut this in your mind. They're going to ask you these kind of questions, like, be honest and try and think ahead of what they're trying to think about. And you think about Moniz career, so four rings, incredible. And also, would he have been able to play as long as he did if he was a start? You know, so it's also like, or it being, I don't want to say humble, but being willing to be a role player might actually be a more sustainable path also, right?

So we're so often obsessed with immediate gratification that we don't realize the expense at which that's actually coming. Oh, for sure. Look, he probably played 17, 18 years, whatever it was. 16 years in the NBA. But it was 16 years, but he's his first NBA season. He was like 25, right? Because he came over. That's right.

He was like the old one, the older rook youth. Uh, so yeah, I mean, it's, and that's part of the, the being able to take or understand your position now. I know a lot of guys, you kind of look around the league, it's kind of hard for some guys to shift from certain roles into this new role, and then they kind of get flamed out early,

whereas certain guys will play 12, 13, 14, 15 years, coming off the bench because they lost their role. They're very comfortable and if they'll ask for more, they'll ask for less. They know what it is. And they might we will is probably probably only started a hundred games in this career. Louis Williams, but he's put the greatest six man of all time and he's comfortable in that role for that mountain. It's 16 cents in here, whatever it is. You grew up in did you you were born in Sacramento or did you grow up there? and he was comfortable in that role for that mountain, 16th century, whatever it is. You grew up, did you were born in Sacramento or did you grow up there?

So I was born like a little west like the Leo, more like North Bay. My family's like mouse flies to lives out there. So I was there and then moved to Illinois for a few years, then Florida for two years, and back to Illinois for a pretty much the rest of like teenage life up until like 12, 12, I think we'll back out of the learn at 12 and then through high school. See, I was just wondering because I was saying earlier, I grew up in Sacramento,

so I was a huge Sacramento keen spin. But Bobby Jackson was another one of those players that was never a starter, but had this huge roll off the bench, but you have to be willing to put aside what other people think, what other people expect, and to just do your job. Yeah, just do your job, whatever the ask you to do, just do that. And some guys, they're like, hey, we think you can do more.

Like we're gonna ask you to do more. Other guys are like, yeah, we love you love you in this role. We like to keep you in this role. And some guys are like, cool with me. Other guys are like, yeah, we love you in this role. We like to keep you in this role. And some guys are like cool with me. Other guys are like, now, one more in and they get more and they're okay with it. But it's some, it has to do some workout as well. Yeah, I guess it's attention too, right? Because if you're just, if you're so accepting or passive that you just take what's offered,

like you also have to be the person that's willing to speak up, that's willing to volunteer, that's willing to grow for it, that's not, that's not resigned to the status quo, right? Or otherwise, you'd never grow, you'd never improve, you'd never reach. I guess it's a tension to be both ambitious and a team player at the same time. Oh yeah, for sure. So given taking it is not, you can't ask for the whole house immediately.

Right? You've got to take pieces of it. If you want that and if they want that from, or someone in the league wants that from, you'll be, yes, that's a tough kind of like, what's the woman to say? That's a tough way to go about things. And we have to go through all the players have to go back and forth with that

until they get solidified in, especially early on in that career. Have you read the captain's class by Sam Walker? I think you would like that book a lot, but it's a great book about how often like the most, the best teams have a captain who it's not who you think it was. Like Michael Jordan wasn't the captain of the Bulls, it was Bill Cartwright and that's the reason that they were able to do what they did.

But anyways, he wrote another book or I think he's writing a book about it, but he wrote it in article about it. It's about, he was talking about Eisenhower. Like Eisenhower doesn't want to be president. He's drafted, sort of called to be president. And his point was that often the best leaders are people who don't want to be leaders. It's not like they were like, no, give me the ball. I deserve to be in charge.

I'm better than all of you. It's more the person who's quietly working on their own stuff over here that everyone senses is capable of more and could do a really good job. And the team kind of goes like, we need more from you. That's what you want to be. Oh, yeah, for sure. When all other 14 guys look at to like, you're the guy we want that versus the guy that's just loud in there. Just people probably listen to that's what you want. Like you say, you want, though, you want to be approval and respect everybody else before you take on that rule.

Yeah. There's a story about Marcus really says this young boy because he's not, his father is an emperor. He's chosen to be emperor. He's this young Katie has this potential. And so the emperor Hadrian selects Marcus, but he realizes that Marcus isn't ready. So he picks this other guy. So basically Hadrian adopts a man named Antoninus Pius, who in turn adopts Marcus, really. So they set in motion this chain. But Marcus, when he's told, like, hey, you're going to become emperor in the future, he's like, I can't do it. I don't have

what it takes. Like, it's impossible. And so that, to me, is that doubt that we all have. But then he has this dream. And in the dream, he, in the dream, he has shoulders made of ivory. And this is the story is that he realizes that he's stronger than he thought he was, right? And I think that's the journey that we go on. Instead of being like, I'm perfect, I'm the best, I deserve this. You almost want a little bit of that imposter syndrome, right? That little doubt. Oh sure.

And then you prove it to yourself that actually you're more capable than you know. Absolutely. Like you said, that imposter syndrome, but then you kind of keep that with you for the length of your leadership time, whatever it is. Like, you did that. I don't think that really goes away, especially for those people that didn't want that role first, that feeling of I worked on it quietly, and no one really noticed until then that kind of sticks with you your whole time and probably the rest of your life, you know what I mean? I kind of like being underestimated too.

It's less scrutiny, less people hassling you, you get to be at the radar a little bit. Like when you meet people that are like really famous or really at the top of it, you're kind of like, oh, it's not as fun as I thought it would be. Oh, no, no, no. You've met many famous people. I know a few. If you ask them behind closed doors, what's their really like?

They're like, I don't like it. I've met just people who just leave me alone or I could just, but it's super, super famous. Almost can't even go get to a grocery store or go to the movies. Like, that's, I do not envy that at all. No, you want, it's funny, you know that. And then then you're like, why am I doing this? And it's like, it's to get the thing that I don't want. Right? Like, it's this contradiction. Like, you're like, I really like my privacy. And yet, all the decisions I make are about trying to get more famous. Like, what is that? Yeah, literally. Yeah, I love like my privacy and yet all the decisions I make are about trying to get more

famous. Like, what is that? Yeah, literally. I love that. That's what I want to play as lost possible. But each day taxes, I get more and more noticeably. They book you right. You get more and more noticeably. I was like, well, I love doing this, but this is the bad that comes with it. Well, no, I've said this about writing. Like, one of the weird things as you become successful as a writer, people ask you to do a whole bunch of stuff that's not writing. And you're just like, yes, yes, yes. And then you're like, where did all my time go? And it's like, you got the thing you wanted,

which was punishment that deprives you of the thing you thought you wanted. Exactly. Same thing with the sweet. It seems we get drafted as well. We're just going to play basketball. You know, we got to do a hundred of everything before we can even step off the court and say, well, this is kind of what I asked for. Yeah. Exactly. It's like to the worst thing that can happen is you get everything you want. Yeah. And then never very rarely is. But if you truly love the thing, you obviously will continue to do it.

And you've, I think they're a really good job of kind of keeping all that at bay. Like obviously you're very very successful, but it's not like you're over while you live in Texas, you live in, you know, a layered New York where it's like, that's all the time. It's the last every day. You kind of get to live in a quiet space. Yeah, that's always been a weird thing where like whenever I'm in like a club or I'm at like a party or whatever, I'm like, this is horrible. Why am I here anymore? Then you see people who are like way richer and more successful and you're like, why are you here? Like, you're amazing to be here. You're here. It's weird that things people like voluntarily choose.

You don't want to be here. Yeah, everyone's asking the same question. Like, why are we doing for this two or three hours? It's late, like I'm tired. But for some reason, I'm out at the super loud and there, a party or club or whatever. And then everyone goes home. It's like, I want what are we doing here, Gus?

Do you, have you watched the new, um, uh, as seasons are, are you special on, uh, compared on Netflix? That's really good. I was really good. Yeah. There's, there's, he's talking about Frank Ocean. And he's like, um, he's talking Frank Ocean. He's like, man, like, you seem to just like make music. You put it out when you want. He's like, you're not always on tour. You're to just like make music, you put it out when you want. He's like,

you're not always on tour, you're not doing like endorsements, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like how do you do it? And Frank Ocean apparently looks at him and goes, oh, you just got to be comfortable making less money. Yeah. Right. But it was like, oh, yeah, that that's right. The reason you do this stuff is because one, because other people are doing it, but because it feels really hard to say no to things that people are offering you money to do,

even if you don't wanna do those things, or in a lot of cases for a lot of people, you don't need the money, but you're saying yes, because like you look at some of these athletes, it's like you made $50 million last year and then you're one off day, you're spending filming a commercial to make more money that you don't need.

That's very crazy to think about. Because like Frank Ocean probably definitely commands a lot of money if he wants to step outside and do any show or make an album or any feature, but he's like, nah, like I'm good. That's why I love guys. Like, Hawaii's got, he's branched out a little bit, but it was a good three or four years stretch where it was like, we don't know where this guy lives.

We don't know what he drives. We don't know anything about him. Besides from like the team mandated like games and interviews. But he kind of lives like that too, like Frank Ocean, he stuffs like every now and then and it's like this big thing. And it's like, oh my god, he's he's he's he's outside. He's doing, I mean, he does off Frank Ocean NYC maybe for the first time in like months or years, whatever it was. And I was like big thing for a couple days. Well, I um I, Robert Green, who I worked for, he's always been sort of my,

I don't do it as well as him, and I do a lot more stuff than he does, but he's always been kind of like the monk. You know, he's like, I just do this thing, and that's how I'm good at this thing. I don't do the distractions, and quiet is kind of like that. Yeah, he's definitely to branch out a little bit.

I've actually seen him in a couple commercials, new bounce commercials, but he just lives a very peaceful quiet life. And a lot of guys do, honestly, just see here about or see some guys always doing something like the one off day, but a lot of guys I think, I think now it's just the dialogue that's around privacy and all this. Like guys are really, really just one piece as much as they can. Like some stuff you have to do, but if you don't, I think a lot of you guys find it to be like, if I love it, really love them, I'm not going to do it.

Yeah, yeah, but it's hard, man. It's hard to know when, because it like for me, like, when someone's like, hey, I'll pay you X to do Y. Even though 10 minutes ago, I wasn't like, I need X, right? As soon as it's offered, there's a part of me that feels like I'm losing it by saying no. So even though I didn't have it and I didn't want it, now that I know it exists, I feel like it's costing me that amount to

say no, even though it's actually just getting me back to where I was 10 minutes ago before I was interrupted. You know, I think that's exactly what the problem is. I feel like I'm losing it if I say no. But I never had to begin a way. I didn't have. This is extra, whatever it is. Whatever it is, XML is extra, but I feel like I'm like minus X if I don't do it. Yes, I feel like this is weird. Obviously, this is a champagne thing and what we're talking about is rather privilege, but it's like, this is also why you need people to be intermediaries, so they just don't

tell you about it. Yes, very true. Yeah, I've seen somebody ever insist to do whatever it is, brother, friend, whatever it is. Like, no, he's not gonna do this. No, she's not gonna do this before he even gets to you. Because very hard to say, though, especially if X is like a decent, good amount of money. It's like, can you say no to that?

Well, it's, you're like, my parents would have killed for that amount of money. You know, it's like that amount of money is what my dad made like in a year. And I'm just gonna be like, nah, I'd rather just hang out at home. That feels irresponsible, even though it's actually responsible.

For sure, there's a very backwards way of thinking. I think about that a lot actually, because my non-professional friends that have quote unquote normal jobs, and like, yeah, I just said, notice this, I just suggested this, and this is their salary, or this is their whatever, like, yeah, just said, no, this hard to suggest to this. And this is their salary or this is their whatever, like their weekly, whatever it is. I'm like, oh, man, like, not feel bad. I just said no to this. And they're like, you know, living, they got dead or things like that

that they would really, really need that money for. But it's hard to measure what it costs you, right? Like, like, let's say you say yes to everything, you know that you're going to make X. But it's hard to measure what that took out of your game. Like, you know, maybe that's averaging 0.5 points more in a season because you're more focused. Like, the, the, the call it in statistics, they'll call it like the invisible graveyard. Like you can't measure the people who, uh, who would have been saved or would have died. Had you like gone faster or done it better, right?

It's, it's, you're in the dark about it. But like you, you know, you don't, when you say yes to this or that, the opportunity costs of that, you never know. And cumulatively, it could be, cumatively, it could be a difference maker in your career, personal happiness or whatever. Oh, absolutely. Or if you do say yes to it, and the immediate cost of it is this, but you said over time,

it may have actually been detrimental to your career, whatever it was. Like immediate success versus immediate, what, even as a couple of week long thing versus a couple of years longer in your career. No, I'm writing about Lou Gehrig in the book that I'm just finishing and there's this funny story about him

where he loved baseball, right? And so the Yankees, they obviously loved him, but they found out that as he would come home from games, like kids would stop him in the street and be like, hey, will you play with us? they obviously loved him, but they found out that as he would come home from games, like kids would stop him in the street and be like, hey, will you play with us? And he was playing like stick ball games, like after, and they were like, you can't do this. Like they were like, they're going to hurt yourself, like getting a baseball in a street

tip because you can't say no to this 11 year old who wants to play baseball with you. You can't say no to this 11 year old who wants to play baseball with you, you can't do it. Like, and it's, but it, we don't see that potential cost of injury or distraction or burnout. All we see is like, well, that looks fun. Oh, you know, that's funny. You say that because I'm pretty sure that's in a lot of professional contact. It's like, you can't play in other leagues, you can't go play at the Y or at the Ford and whatever it is for that exact reason. Like you heard or burned out like we need you for this and do this at the highest level. Kill everything else. It's also why you can't ride motorcycles and fly planes and it's right. No, this is, it doesn't feel like what you're doing

this expensive because it's free up until the time it costs you everything. Literally everything. Yeah, and we can't have that. I mean, the year about the stories, but guys doing that, they lose or get fined, a crazy amount. It's like, was it worth it to play that game or was it worth it to do that?

Well, that's what they think actually happened to Tiger Woods is that he was just like an addict to a lot of things, but one of the things he was addicted to is just like working out and doing stuff. And he just burned, you know, he, like golf is a game you can play until you're 70, but like look at Tiger Woods, accident aside. He's like, he, his body is like Peyton Manning's or something. Oh, his body has broken down over the years

of just stress on it, whether it was whatever it was on time of the working out, which is why like, when the stories came out of that, when Jordan was filming Space Jam and all that, like he's waking up at this like super early to work out then filmed all day and then work out again and still was able to like play at the highest level that that is going to make sense in my mind how that's possible. No, you have to be disciplined

about your discipline. That's the hardest part. Oh, for sure. Well, this was awesome, man. I'm so glad we got to do it. We'll have to do it in person one of these days. Would you back down to Texas? Will you come out? Absolutely. We would have to do it in person one of these days. Would you back down to Texas, will you come out? Absolutely. We would go to Austin, a decent amount. It's less than two hours away from you, so I'll definitely pull out to the end. See the shop, too.

All right, man. See the books. All right, we'll hang out for sure. Yes, Larry. Thanks for listening to The Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in The Daily Stoke Store. You can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend, the obstacles the way. You go as the enemy, still in this is the key, the leather bound edition

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