The Daily Stoic - Matthew McConaughey On Stoicism & How To Focus On What Matters

Episode Date: July 9, 2022

On today’s episode, Ryan speaks with Academy Award-winning actor and producer Matthew McConaughey about his approach to the craft of acting, the simple keys to living a happy life, his new book, the #1 best seller Greenlights, and more.Matthew McConaughey has been working in Hollywood for over 25 years, appearing in movies like A Time to Kill, The Wolf of Wall Street, and Dallas Buyers Club. His work in the latter film won him the 2013 Academy Award for Best Actor. McConaughey also works as a producer and spokesperson, and recently released his first book, the bestselling memoir Greenlights.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal and most importantly to prepare for what the week

ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Steal podcast. We're re-running an episode actually, this one originally aired in November of 2020 with

the one and only Matthew McConaughey. We're re-running it because as you know, the show is now in Amazon Wondery Podcast. So we're having this exclusivity window where some of the episodes run exclusively a week early over there. I didn't wanna leave anyone hanging. If you missed this interview because you're a new subscriber,

I thought I'd throw it up for you. It's one of the best interviews I did. I did this, I was on vacation with my family in Florida and we zoomed this in in what was still the serious days of the pandemic. I loved Matthews book, Greenlights and he was nice enough to ask me to blurb it, which I did. There's also a new Greenlights journal, so I thought I'd give that a bump. And his wife actually has a fun new kids book called Just Try One Bite with Adam Mansbach who wrote that great book, Go The Fuck To Sleep, Camilla, and he did a wonderful job on this book.

I think you will like it. If you haven't read Green Lights or seen the Green Lights Journal, you should. They've bostled a bazillion copies for good reason. But this episode is about Matthews' approach to acting, focusing on the essential things in life, saying no to what doesn't matter in the simple keys to living a happy life. And as I was saying, we're now officially a Wondering Podcast, which means in addition to the interview episodes, we're going to be running longer stuff on Sunday, excerpts from audiobooks, etc. We're doing a Q&A episode each week, and brand new, stoic-related

content each day If you sign up for a wonder membership, you get early access to some of these new episodes as well as If you sign up for a wonder membership, you get early access to these I think you can listen to them early on Amazon music as well You can access all their cool podcasts at wondery.com But this is just a holdover episode that I thought I'd throw up. You can also watch it on YouTube on the DailyStone YouTube channel at youtube.com slash DailyStone. In the meantime, enjoy.

So I thought we'd start this. I've always wanted to ask this question to an actor. There's this great line from Epictetus. He says, you know, life is like being an actor. There's this great line from Epictetus. He says, you know, life is like being an actor. He says, you don't get to choose your lines. You just choose how you deliver them. He's basically saying that sort of life is written that, you know, that there's a higher power who's mostly in control. And then we have this sort of circumscribed role where we do the best we can. have this sort of circumscribed role where we do the best we can, is it's always struck me as a weird profession, your line of work, and that you have so little actual control

of what you do. You get to choose your movies at this point in your career, but you don't control what the other actors do. You don't control what the director does. You don't control the marketing budget. No. I mean, it's a select the bar stool whiskey version that is how you play the hand your del. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's part of the reason that I did write a book.

And I'm going to go back into the acting. So there's four filters from my first raw expression as an actor. There's what I do. What I'm doing, someone else is script. It's being directed by someone else. There's what I do. What I'm doing someone else's script, it's being directed by someone else, it's being lends in the camera by someone else and edited by someone else before it's presented

in the final form which you see in the theater on TV. You know, it's a little bit of what I do in my class, UT with the script of screen. It's the original script is so different from the final product. Things change, you know, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, sometimes it's just completely different. My job as an actor, and I am only learning this in the last 15 years from the great Penny Allen mentor, who really taught me what acting was, she's like, you have to own your man, your character. You have to be the sole owner of that.

You have to know your man upside down backwards, forwards better than anybody else. It's not the directors anymore. It's not the writers who wrote it anymore. You're the bloodline, you're the expression. The baton has been handled. Now, to do that, that takes a lot of the work of, my version is I to come in with four

versions of the truth in every scene. So like you said, when every actor goes off script or changes something up or the director is completely going to the surprise, I'm calling articles, I'm ready, and I'm not having to think about it, it's instinctually coming out of me. Now, if I can do that, like I've always said this, my ideal place when I really get to know my man as an actor is put a blindfold on me. Take me, I don't care if you take me to Mars, wherever, be rolling camera,

be, press record as soon as I walk off and take the, take the blindfold off, and I should be able to behave as my man would in any situation. I don't always get there, but that's the place. And again, I gotta have the dialogue to have the monologue, but every character, every actor, should know the monologue of his man or his woman.

So was that frustrating early on in your career? Because you seem like a sort of an ambitious guy, a guy who wants to, has a lot of artistic expression, you want to get out? Was it hard for you to sort of see your role as like, especially I guess in movies that maybe you didn't like as much? How do you, how do you sort of go in and go, I can only focus on what I do here? I think one of the nice parts about being a writer, as I'm sure you found, is you do have so much

more control over the artistic expression. Yeah. Because it's a solo sport. It's golf versus football. Yeah. Well, even though acting, you know, acting, I've learned to understand that, yes, while it's a football, while it's a team is sport, I get pretty selfish on that. I'm like, I mean, I, I, I'm a team player. I love collaboration.

I've learned that there's more than, that though I may not be wrong, there's more than one way to be right, or a better word for acting is to be true, to go out and just tell the truth, not about right or wrong. I mean, sometimes,

I try to get a measure from a director early on on what is our measure of excellence. All right, I did this with Gary Ross from Free State of Jones. We're two weeks in a shooting and we're communicating pretty well and he's getting me direction and I'm feeling pretty good about it and what he's got to say and I feel like his meter of excellence is similar to mine. I'm enjoying this direction and I'm giving stuff back to him and he seems to be receiving it, but I want to check it.

I want to check our relationship. So we do this one. We do the scene one day and I do 10 takes. So after the 10 takes, I said, Gary, come here. We go into the tent and look at the monitor. I said, I'm going to write down what I think is the select best takes. You write down what you think of the best select takes

out of the tent, and then we're going to swap papers to see if we're seeing things the same. So I write down first half of take four, second half of take two. We watch all 10 ticks. We swap papers. I open his paper, it says first half of take four, second half of take two. Now when that happens, now I'm like, here we go, freedom. You and I are seeing things the same. Don't mean we agree on everything, but we have the same measure of excellence. Like you see that take five, which was really good, but I kind of, I was acting.

You see me there, there was a good moment, I anticipated it and I tried to put a little cherry on top. It wasn't as true as it was when I did it and take four for the first time. Yes, it's exactly what I saw. You know, so when we meet there on a measure of what we've deemed excellent or deemed the most true, then the relationship becomes much more collaborative for me,

meaning if you're the director and you're telling me to, I don't have any sort of defense up. Now, I've had many of films I've done where the director and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on my character or what the truth is for my character. And boy, they open their mouth and I'm going, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, yep, yep, yep, yep. And the other thing is, is to go out there, I'll, I'll, if, if, this has been said long before, I'm saying it now,

but in Hollywood, they say, if the director ever says, well, give me one, take my way, just for me. If you do it, that takes what's gonna, they're gonna put that take in a movie. No matter how, no matter if you did it, that will or not. Most of the time, they're gonna put that in a movie. So.

I feel like that's a good question. Well, I find myself asking people that question a lot when I work on books for people. It's sort of like, what does success actually look like here? Because I find like, so obviously it's one problem when people aren't aligned, but I find maybe a more common issue is actually nobody has even thought about

what success looks like and they're just sort of winging it. You know what I mean? You seem like a guy who goes in with a strong sense of what you want. Absolutely. You know. Yeah, absolutely. Look, I am not really one for jumping

off and saying, well, that's way, now I have succeeded though when that has happened, actually. And sometimes after a mind myself now to be more open to saying, just let it go. There's whatever. But I do. I am a fan of writing the headline before writing the story. I am a fan of before doing a movie sitting down before we've shot one scene with the producers and the director and going, what's the poster? Just where, where are we heading?

What kind of movie look I mean, the poster is a close-up silhouette of my face. That means, oh, the director's really gonna follow this like a real lead character drama. It's gonna be a real character piece. If the poster's a big broad landscape with a sunsetting in the background and a lightning bolt and some shadows,

some silhouettes in the background, oh, okay, that's more of a backward epic. It's gonna be more about storytelling character. You know what I mean? So I'm getting in my mind, what is that place we're going? And that poster will change. This looks like my own headline will change, but it gives me, I'd love to have that bit of a goal line just to understand where we're going.

It's what I say in the book about, like, look, just give me this conservative vertebral leg. Let's define our direction. We go in North-South East to West. Please pick that. Now give yourself 16 lanes to square. And you can take the feet of road off all you want because you're out. You're going the general direction. You're either heading towards Florida, California, Montana or Mexico, which way are we going?

Well, I was going to ask about the book. You know, if this idea of a green light, if you don't act like there's a quote from Santa Coo, which I love, he says, if you don't know which port you're sailing to, no wind is favorable. So this idea of hitting the green lights, obviously you want to hit the green lights, but if you're going in the wrong direction, actually hitting the green lights is the worst possible gift you could get. So having a clear sense of what you want is essential. Intentional and deliberate choice to go that way. And then I know for me, if we have that,

then it's easy to dance and blow in the wind. Create your weather, then blow in the wind. But I'm not for just saying, yeah, whatever, we're heading out. Well, wait a minute, I want to check the forecast where I am right now, maybe 82 degrees, but where we're going is going to be negative 12. Yeah, if I head out without checking, I'm going to be cold where I'm going. So let's just check out some general things and say, what can we should be prepared for? What are the general rules of engagement that I'm heading into?

And then be free to dance and go, yeah, I'm ready to do back flips with my eyes closed. No, and that was one of the things I was really interested in in the book is your sort of deliberate decision to change the trajectory or the arc of your career. So, yeah, on the one hand, an actor doesn't have a ton of control over what happens in the movie, but you do have some control over what movies you choose to be in or not. And so, yeah, your decision to say like, hey, I'm gonna be a different kind of actor, then allowed you to say yes and no to certain movies

that probably seem totally crazy to other people, to your peers, to your management team, but you knew where you wanted to go. So actually being offered, you know, X amount for this movie, no amount of money made it the right decision. No, because I had hit a red light with my soul and myself. I had hit a red light where it wasn't about

how much money that was giving me. It was about, wow, I'm going to work. It's easy, it's fun. Nothing wrong with that? That's not me, you know, okay, I remember telling myself, hey, nothing wrong with that. That's not be, you know, okay, I remember, tell myself, hey, nothing wrong with that. Let's not just, again, let's not trip ourself running downhill here.

I said, but man, I think there's a way, and I want to find a way where my work is challenging me, where I'm having an experience in the work, where I'm growing in the work, where it's challenging the vitality I have in my life, which was feeling very vital and has been feeling very vital. So that was a red light for me, is that when I would go to work, I'd feel like, why didn't feel as much in life as I do in real life? And it felt like, okay, I'm going to have to work, this is too easy.

And it's supposed to be easy, but is that really what I want? So I had a red light in my life. I was not growing through my work at that time. And so that's why I stopped doing what I was doing and did turn to that. And it wouldn't have mattered. People go like, well, look, that big offer you got for 14, whatever. If that had been 20, would you have done it? I was like, no, I mean, I really wouldn't.

I would have probably re-read it again just to say I think I should. That would be the responsible thing just to consider it. But I was never that that my check was, I had already cashed that check with my soul saying, I'm not going back. It's a champagne problem certainly, but it's not easy to do, right? To say no to when people, when it's hard to say no to socially acceptable things. Yes. And socially acceptable when they are

the best champagne in the world. I mean, as far as the taste, it's a very shiny gold things were in front of me. And they weren't the devil. Right. They weren't evil. They weren't tyrannical. They were, I felt they would be tyrannical to me in doing them and to spend my time there. And so, yeah, it was, it was difficult. And it is difficult to say, no, but you know this, you talk about it all the time, there was, that was the great power in the know. I mean, I had, look, could I have made that decision 10 years prior? No, obviously, and I didn't make that decision 10 years prior. Remember, I come in, you come into something and this goes along with the line of bring up

about being less impressed and more involved. Look, I'm just still impressed with this industry and impressed that, wow, I get to do this. I would do it for free. There's not one film that I've done that I would not do for free because I love the work But you can't roll through going. I'm still just so happy to be here You're offering me that work of course you have to be discerning. There's only 24 hours in a day And we've got a schedule through a year. You can't do everything you want to do if you're in a fortune position Which I am so I had to make choices and life is short

It's so short. You know, even though it does seem to last a while sometimes overall, it's very short. So, you know, yeah, to say, no, those things was hard, but I had a hunch, I had a hunch that there was a joke in the deck at the end of the line somewhere. I don't want to be out of a hunch that there was a joke in the deck at the end of the line somewhere. I didn't know when the end of the line was. It was going to come, but it did about two years later. I'm glad you brought up free-stated jokes, because that's actually maybe my favorite movie of yours. I told Bob Simmons of STX, so I've gotten to know over the years that I love that movie,

and I think he joked, oh, you're the only one, you're the person that's dating. So that's probably part of it too, which is, I don't know about you, but I feel like some of the stuff that I'm most proud of is the stuff that the least amount of people have seen. Right. Sometimes, sometimes I know it. You know, and I've learned this,

hang on, because sometimes they resurrect themselves down line somewhere where they get found. And, you know, I've been through times in my life with the work I'm doing that I dislike the most or don't love the most is maybe loved, is maybe accepted the most, but maybe by people that I'm like, eh, but that's not really the people that I appreciate from respect the most.

So, you know, I mean, but I have found this, well, I think I'm trying to think of what has done it. I've had a couple that disappeared, never got there head above water. Films are like, ah, just came and went. No one even knows it came and went. And then five, 10 years later, all of a sudden it has a little resurrection.

Hey, man, I was watching last night and this came out. That's a great movie. Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. And it'll happen. So sometimes patiently it comes. And then I always like to think of it like, like, you know, try to have a career.

This is a lofty thought, but like a dillon. You know, he just pounded out albums, man. And things, and, but like Dylan, you know, he just pounded out albums, man, and things, and Willie Nelson, they just pound out albums and keep hammering you with them. And certain ones rise later on, if you look back at the history of career, like a Dylan, like that, you go, man, he was expressed, and he was along the way,

and wasn't really worried about the result, and there are some absolute gems here. You know, it's like quantity is actually a way to get to quality. Maybe they're not always at odds with each other the way people think that they are. Maybe. And the other, well, the other thing is,

I would say that artists, like if you're saying quantity, it's just, have quantity if you wanna put it, if that's what it didn't be. I mean, if you're going like, I have to keep creating here. I have to keep creating. I just finished one.

I gotta go to work again. I gotta do it again. I'm in a golden age of creativity with myself. I need to just keep putting that content. Good. Do so because you're doing it for you and you're not doing it for the result of, well, wait a minute.

Now mind you, I, that sabbatical I took, I did sacrifice quantity at that time. Sure. But I was not allowed, I knew that I was not being allowed at the time to play in the sandboxes that I wanted to play in. Right. And I wanted to play in different sandboxes.

So I said, you can keep nailing quantity in the sandboxes you've been in, this romantic comedy sandbox, which is the only one that let you play in. But it was sort of feel revolutionary, sort of feel very circular. Like they're all sort of the same. Boy, me, it's girl, they break up, boy, Chase Girl,

Kessler, at the end, roll the credits we happy. You know, I mean, that's it. They're all the same in this, that's fine. But I was looking for, I was looking for roles that I go, geez, I don't know what I'm gonna do with this. It scares me. I'm sweating in my boots, man, this, oh, that is what I was looking for. A buzz.

I was looking for the buzz. I was looking for the buzz. Hey there listeners! While we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduka Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Kodopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together, they discussed their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn

along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So, if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery. Well, that's what I'm gonna ask you about Newton Knight. It's such a fascinating character. It must have been weird too, as a born and raised southerner, to play this sort of guy that is neither North nor South, right? And it strikes me as we need more people, when we first met I said this to you, but it was like, I feel like we need more

people like that these days, people who make decisions for themselves, not decisions based on identity or affiliation or, you know, the idea of breaking away from the South in the South is just an incredible, incredible amount of moral and physical courage. Yeah, I mean, look, and I'm with you, and you know, I've spoken a little bit about this offline. The, right now, 2020, right now, the individual has more, the private sector all the way down to the individual

has more power than ever and should take advantage of that power. I don't know how to make systemic change, but we can each look in the mirror and make the choice and go, I am an individual and it's within that, that really, I found this with the book, the more personal I got with the book, the more relatable it was to more people.

Sure. The more I dove into the eye, the more it was relatable to the Wii. Well, it's in that individual choice with ourselves, not, not parry to any party or anything else. That's where we create the collective. Right. And people see that as, I think, a contradiction.

And I do often sometimes myself, but that's what I know I'm trying to chase. Go, no, the actual, the best decision for the eye is actually the best decision for the way. The most selfless decision is the most selfless decision. And vice versa, best decision for the way is the most for the eye. But before you try to, it's a little that act locally, first then globally. It's, look itself first, and that will open yourself up to what is how we become a collective,

how you're acting, what the best decisions for the we, what is the most selfless decision. But there are much more paradox than a contradiction, I think that most of us may come sometimes. But that goes to your definition of acting earlier, you define acting as sort of the decision to be true. I think what you see in a character like that or what you see in these sort of people, whether it's a Martin Luther or a Martin Luther King, the sort of here I stand, I can do no other. I am incapable of not being true to myself in this moment.

Come what will. Well, and there you go. So, and this happens when going back to roles that I'll play in acting or who we are in life, like people you brought up. All right, pages and go through major amounts of intellectual rigor to find my man, so to speak. But you know what, here's when I really have it.

And here's when I really have myself in life because as you said, that feels very selfish. You know, there's the famous Sir Stoic resistance character is Kato, although there was there's a few other Stoics after they're sort of known as the stoic opposition, they're sort of came this, the emperor would sort of go like, why can't you just be normal? Like why can't you just go along with everybody else? Why is this so important to you? You're like the only one that's not going along. And then, as you said, you sort of boil it down and you boil it down and you go, cause that's who I am.

And I don't have a choice. Everyone else might have a choice, and I don't have a choice. Everyone else might have a choice, but I don't have a choice. Yeah, and if we can get there, beautiful. And I say, you know, I'm all, everybody, if you're not a tyrant in those choices, you know what I mean? Then set sail. I mean, I think that actually family structure

and societies are sort of built like that anyway. You create a formation. This is what's expected of you, everyone tell them and there's a lot of great things to that. They keep order, they give us form structure, let us know, but certain individuals at certain times when you break out of it and go your own way and the powers that be, the father or society goes, no, you can't do that. But if you are not asking permission and you fully own it, obviously you do it, Steve jobs, whatever, society in the family goes, there you go.

They applaud it. Sure. But the thing is, it's that thing, you know, you go when I went to my father to say I wanted to go to law school and to law school. He heard my voice that I meant it. If I'd have been like, well, I think I want to, he'd have probably popped off and got mad because he'd been challenged to be, no, no, no, you're not coming at me. Don't come at me with it with a request until you've committed to it. Sure.

And we're gonna do it with or without my approval. And that, when I did that, he was like, yes, don't have acid. That's my boy. And I noticed it, he appreciated that his son being a rebel and going his own way by hooker by crook in one conversation. Within 10 seconds on a phone, my dad heard it and we made a full transition in our relationship and I was launched out

and he saw me becoming a man by my own choices. I like your point about you have to be sort of a tyrant or an asshole about it. There's an F's God Fitzgerald story called The Four Fists and it's about this sort this very principled guy. But at some point, he's in one of the pivotal moments in the story if I'm remembering this correctly. He's in this business deal.

And if he does the right thing, it's the right thing. But if he does the right thing, he's almost certainly going to be fired and lose his job and then his family and his children will suffer. And he's sort of wrestling with the, oh, to do the right thing here is actually a selfish thing. And so he's good. That must have been hard too, as you think, and obviously again, champagne problems. But as you're thinking about, you're like, hey, I could do this and my family will be set for life. But I'm tired of being in romantic comedies. You know what I mean? Like, there's a part of you

that probably could go, but I'll just, I'll just gut this out. I'll just do it anyway, even though I don't want to, because it's the responsible thing. Well, those responsible things, expect to think and trust me, my family, my blood family, my brothers and mother and brother were like, what the, as you're probably, what are you doing, man? You're mentally meditating, Macon Matthew, little brother, you're like, oh, locked up, you're overthinking this, you're paralysis of analysis, you know, and I was like, no, and I had that discussion

where I was able to say to them, that it's not, I'm not, this is not open for debate. I'm not, I'm not coming to you going, what do you think? The ship is sailed, I'm doing it. And as soon as they had to set that, they're like, there you go, little brother, hi, good luck, I don't get it, but he does, all right.

And then it was, I was in. Then there was no, they, they, they, they had my back from then on, but they still didn't understand it, but they knew that, oh, this was not open for discussion with me, with the choice I'd made. Yeah, I guess that's where this idea of courage comes in, but I was thinking too about, you know, the idea of green lights. It's almost like, you decide what you want, and then it's often the people who you care about most, who throw up the red lights,

because they're worried about it. Right, right. This is interesting. Yeah. And to go back a second to your comment before, which is about these green lights, it's, and I haven't really talked about this in the book, but it's a further conversation from it,

is which green lights, some green lights are plugged into a two-volt battery. Yeah. They shine bright for the moment, but they're not going to last. Some green lights are solar powered. Very eternal. They're going to shine after we're gone. Now, if we get plugged into those and make those kind of green lights non-negotiable and be able to see, oh, this

is a green light right now, but it's a stop not a stay. Oh, the ones that are plugged in the batteries will turn red quickly. Is what I'm saying? We'll get the red and yellow because you should get the red and yellow either by someone else that's around you and cares for you or with your own self going like, well, this is a stop not a stay. This is just a little vacation. This isn't a true green light. I'm giving myself this hedonistic experience right now and realizing it's a green light, but this is going to last, you know, and I've had many times of that in my life where I was like, okay, I'm going to ride this green light right now and I'm going to press gas and I'm going, okay, I'm gonna ride this green light right now and I'm gonna press gas and I'm gonna go

and I'm gonna enjoy, I'm gonna give myself a license. And I'm not gonna slow, you're usually I would slow down tomorrow, I'm not gonna slow down. I'm gonna give myself an entire month, you know? And that's okay as long as I, it's only okay when I realized it early though, because sometimes we can go chasing those battery powered green lights that aren't really true for us now.

And tomorrow, we can chase those until we're out of gas. And you're sitting in front of the real green light and you've got no gas to go. You got nothing to reserve tank. You're out of it. Yeah. Don't you think your point about sort of there being bright green lights and maybe some faint green lights. Like I was just talking to my editor on my first book, my first sort of book about Stoicism, I was sort of asking, I was like, hey, what did you think in retrospect when I came to you, you know, wanting to write a sort of a book about an obscure school of

ancient philosophy? And we were like, well, look, we were just basically telling you, yes, because we hoped you would get discouraged and then go back to your other books. Okay. And so that sort of, I love the story in the book about your first movie. Yeah, you were in the movie. Like they gave you a green light to be in the movie, but you sort of took that for everything that it's worth. Like just because there's a green light doesn't mean it's going to be straight green lights from here. You might go out as soon as you pass through.

Yeah, and don't put it on cruise control just because you caught a green light. Yeah, keep your hands on the wheel, and keep driving and navigating. And along the way, as I say, keep your eye open for, as you said earlier, when do we have enough green lights? We're like, wait, I think this is a, this is a battery power. Don't I need to pull off and catch a yellow here?

I need to take balls. I need to take a repose. I need, I need a red light. Oh, I need some resistance. The stopping think or make sure you're not heading the right direction. Yeah. You know, make sure you're heading the right direction. Oh, geez. And I've got a, I've got a great story about that. That didn't what included in the book, but it was coming across the 24 mile bridge of overlay Pacha train coming back from this set of

Dallas Fire's Club. It's a 24 mile bridge, longest single standing bridge, I believe, over about it. So I think there's a longer one in China, but there is. But, uh, since you ask me, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, for Cherry Lime Aid. Get back on the road and I'm driving. And I'll set that notice, that sun's behind me now. I'm like, oh shit. Oh no, Bill, oh, I got back on the bridge going back eastbound. And I couldn't exit. I was going the wrong direction. Yeah, there's no turn arounds on that bridge.

And there's no turn arounds. Yeah, they got a full 24 miles down and get off. And I remember just chuckling to myself. You know, I'm going, okay, well, I guess you needed some sound on the back of your head. I guess you needed to listen to more Dylan. And I guess you needed to enjoy the anticipation of going home to see your wife for another hour and a half.

So, you know, yeah, sometimes we just go in the wrong direction and we need that, we need that red light. It's weird though, some of those are like my favorite moments. Like when I think of like moments that really stick in my mind of like when I was happy or when life felt really good, it was some weird moment like that. It wasn't, you know, accepting the Oscar, you know, putting number one or whatever, it's it's it was like, oh, yeah, I was drinking a soda, driving down a bridge. And it hit me. I was going, yeah, the world was slow enough that I could actually be present for a second. Yes. Well, I'll do, you know, I call it a

mallop prop, you know, some of the mallop, my best moments have been in mallop props. Some of my funniest jokes, people laughed harder when they thought I said something else in the punchline than actually what I meant to say. Right. And so I'm like, not a gig, and I've stopped myself from interupting because I don't wanna keep them from laughing because they thought it was funny

and they misunderstood it. And I'm like, just go with it, go with it. Yeah, take it sometimes. Well, those are, you know, that to bring up Penny Allen again, I told you she was my earlier mentor. She would always tell me, and this is a good one for life as well because I love to prepare. I love to be deliberate intentional. I love to be come into the game solid. I'm a solid footing and she was like, okay, you got that down Matthew now.

Matthew, you got that down. Here's how I want you to enter every scene. Here's how I want you to enter every scene. On one foot off balance and then find your balance in the scene. And I think that's a bit of that mallop property talking about, those moments where you find yourself going the wrong way on the bridge, having your cherry soda, you're off balance. Again, now you have to find your way back. That's where we're in action. That's where we're not a noun and we're actually a verb. And that's what's fun to see.

That's what's fun to experience is, how am I going to find my footing again here? Not winter solid. When we're all in solid footing. It's kind of boring sometimes. You know, when you ask your fee, you're not growing muscle. Yeah. Yeah. So another question on green lights, because I saw you had Mark Manson blur the book,

who I love, and is a friend. He has this thing, and it's one of his more popular articles. He says sort of like, it's fucked yes or no. Basically that you either really want to do it, you have to do it, you would rather die than not do it, or you're going to pass on it. And that's true. That's definitely, I get the logic of it, but there's also a tricky part there because

I feel like some of the decisions I've made, whether it was dropping out of college or leaving my job to become an author, there were also decisions that I made that I was pretty sure I was making the wrong decision and I was terrified as I was making them. And it was very close to being those like, I'm so going to regret this, but it turned out to be the right thing. So how do you know? You know what I mean? How do you know?

Yeah, I do know you mean. I mean, look, I'm a, I'm known in Hollywood as a quitman along, yes What I'll do is, if there's something I really want to do, I'm saying, let's call it a movie. I read, boy, I like this character and I've checked out, who asked the pedigree around it. Who's the director, that the financing, they're going to make a real movie, Dexeter, et cetera. Before I'll say yes, my nose are pretty quick.

Before I'll say yes, my nose are pretty quick. Before I'll say yes, I'll go, okay. I'm doing it. I'm doing it. Camilla, I'm doing it. Matthew, we're doing it. Here we go. Set and share. We're leaving it.

We're leaving it two months going away. That's in my mind. And everything about me with that script is now I'm looking through the lens if that's going to be my future. Sure. And then I'm going to have it. Now, do I wake up in the middle of the night? Three nights later. I'm still concerned about that damn director, man. I'm not sure. I'm trying to make make him worry,

but trying to make that work, or do I wake up at the minute, oh man, that part, the script is second act that writers just say, yeah, we'll fix it on set, we'll just work with you. If that doesn't work, the whole script doesn't work. Do I trust that? What's keeping me up?

Then I'll go to, all right. And this is before I make any decision. Sure. I'll live a week or two weeks with that. Then I'll go, I'm not doing it. Now I'm gonna to, all right. And this is before I make any decision. Sure. I'll live a week or two weeks with that. Then I'll go, I'm not doing it. Now I'm gonna go for two weeks. I'm not doing that. Get that script done.

Guys, change the schedule. We're not going off to do that, man. We're not doing it. Now what keeps me up at night? Does anything wake me up? If I sleep well, that's a pretty good sign that yeah, you probably shouldn't do it. Cause when you were gonna do it,

you'll, those other things will wake you up. Now, if I'm waking up the middle and I go, ah, I got to do that guy. I got to be that man. I got, no, I, oh, no, I have to. I don't care. I, I, I, I, I can work with this director and I'm going to start on the second act right now, working with those writers. We're going to make this happen because I, the idea of not doing that, I'm going to feel regret it so bad. No way. I've got to do it. I have to. Well, that's a good reason to go. I'm in. But I give myself about 10 days to two weeks in each frame of mine. Yes, I am. No, I'm not. And then I measure what wakes me up at night. So a quick no in a long, yes. Yeah. Interesting. So I don't want to put you on this button, we can cut it or we can we can not make the the details of it specific. When the project that you and I connected about early on,

we didn't know we were even in the same universe bumping up against each other on it. One of the reasons as you were thinking about not doing it, you said, you like being you. You were going to pass it, you were going to pass on it right now because you like being you at this moment. I loved that answer. What the hell does that mean? Okay.

So, that script I want to say, we didn't say the name of was a great script and it is great script and Well done, right. We kind of the way you and I kind of came together It's kind of really really cool from some outside influences It was really well written and really a great read I am having I am having a lot of fun being me right now and I say that without any you know you print that I'm having a lot of fun being me right now. And I say that without any, you print that to people go, oh, that's arrogant.

No, trust me, I've had plenty of times if I don't like being me. Right now is not one of those times, thanks. Sure. I am the role in the life I'm living right now have been living for the last couple of years. Is turning me on daily so much. I cannot wait for Monday morning.

I, I, things, family work creatively, the things, the, the choices I'm making and the, where I'm investing my time in life. I'm looking at this halved, this, the big movie, the big movie's life. Right. And the recorders always on. And I'm having a good time trying to challenge myself to go, be the man you want to be, be the man you are and want to be right now live 24-7. You really want to put on the boots? What kind of hey? As I'll call myself a third person, which I have no problem with that. Sure. Put those boots on.

Quit acting like want to be one. Let's go. Now I'm having a wonderful time. I get more mad now, more sad. I get more joy. I'm laughing hard. I'm feeling resonance with the thing I'm doing. I'm feeling a lineage with things I'm building.

I feel like I really have a really, really long, long view of where I'm going. And so that's what I mean, I'm having. And the book is part of this, a part of that, you know, you've written, it is a singular expedition. And to go back, I had such a great time. I had the best creative time I've ever had writing this book.

I laughed, I cried, I drew blood, but I had the best time I've ever had with the best company I've ever kept writing this book, me. And again, I say that freely because I've been not my favorite company, linear times. So I can speak of the asset section because I've had plenty of the debit.

So to idea of going, oh, I'm going to leave my life what I'm living right now. I'm going to leave trying to execute and be the man that I want to be right now. I'm going to leave how much, how nervous it makes me, how anxious, how excited I get about it. I'm going to leave the idea of creating this minister of culture and what's that going to do going forward and say, I'm gonna go away and do

someone else's script, yours, mine you up, very, very, very good one, be directed by someone else, lens by someone else, edited by someone else, playing someone else or another part of me that I'm not completely playing now. Well, that's a lot of filters away from my direct expression to just go do something and put it in a capsule and let that live for time. I'm like, well, let's, let's, what about the experiment of this, every day, every hour, every minute, being part of the capsule?

And if we live on 100 years, it's 100 year capsule. If we live 80 years, it's an 80 year capsule. But all of that, let that be. We don't, your action was called, we were born, cut is only called one time, and that's when we died. So between action and cut, how are we doing in this take? This is the take, I'm like, I don't wanna get out of this take.

I love that, it's always struck me how rare that is, and I'm sure you've met many, many successful people and some of the most talented artists of your time. It's always striking how little autonomy and freedom some of these people have in their lives. Like when you look at their schedule, like, hey, what are you doing? And I go do this.

And I find myself doing that all the time because it's really hard to say no. Yes, but also, you know, you and I were talking there earlier and right now I'm not, I'm not, even for say if we said forget the book tour and I'm not working on a film set, I'm not on vacation. I mean, my days are full.

Sure. And I'm in my office working, doing stuff, but I'm not, I was writing this last night about we gotta get to where we enjoy the enjoy More enjoy getting ready to do the work. Sure. It's like we got to get to a space where we go like no, I know this work I got things I got to do this afternoon that are from prior commitments It's I'm enjoying talking about the book and going on talking to people like yourself right now Been doing for three weeks and enjoying that this other other thing I gotta do this afternoon has nothing to do with it.

But it's from a contract with another affiliation I have that helps pay my rent and one I enjoy doing. But I gotta get another headspace to do that. I don't wanna do that. But what's my alternative? Not doing it? And if I don't do it, okay, you willing to give up that contract? No, I'm not actually.

So if I don't do it, okay, you willing to give up that contract? No, I'm not actually. So if I don't do it and try to put it off, I'm gonna double up the work for the next time I gotta do it. And trust me, on that day, I know that on that day, when I do it in the future, if I push it down the road, I'm not gonna have a free day then either. So that day's gonna be like, well, I don't wanna do it today, but now I gotta even do twice as much as I did back then.

So I'm like, get the ax out, man. Just take another swing at the tree. Just keep on working. Keep on swinging the ax. And if the work that I'm doing is feeding me in the long run and being true to me, then that's the kind of hard work that I think we need to lean in to go.

I'm gonna find a way to enjoy this. If I'm gonna do it, do it pleasure. This happens all the time with people in my industry. You go to a talkship, they don't like doing press. Ah, I don't wanna do this. I don't like, well don't. I mean, go, just don't. I mean, I'm not being facetious seriously.

Just go home and like, well no, I mean, I can't, I'm go, okay. The inevitable thing is that you're saying you're doing the press, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta do it. Okay, so now that we're here, what the fuck, dude? Let's do this. I mean, the fuck do, let's do this. I mean, what's the,

let's have a better time doing something you don't wanna do than a shitty time doing something you don't wanna do if you're gonna do it. Well, I think that's the balance, right? It's like you say, you say no to all, and Mark's really says this, because you gotta ask yourself every minute, is this essential?

Is the thing I'm doing essential? And the upside of that question is a lot of the things you're doing are not essential and therefore you don't need to do them. Right. Because the double benefit is that you do a fewer things better. And I think that's where you wanna get.

As you say, you know, to most things and then the things you say yes to, you either actually like doing them or you don't like doing them, what you do them like they matter. Right. I've had to, you know, I'm a great overleverager.

But you know, put me in, I got a great work ethic. I'm like, I'll, but I have to watch you take it on too much stuff. Yes, because I'm like, I can do it. I can do it. You don't have that, give it to me, I'll take care of it.

Yep, come on, I'll line it up. And I'm good at it. I've got resilience, I've gotten endurance, I'll outlast a lot of people and outwork them. I did have a time though, probably 15, right around that time where I took off the romcoms inside TikTok 2 years off, where my phone rang, I had a production company

at a music label, was an actor, I had a foundation, I was a family man. My phone rang. And as I went to pick it up, I saw it was a number from my office where I have five, six employees and I paid the rent in a beautiful office. As I went to pick up the phone, my hand paused, mid-reach. I didn't want to pick up the phone. And in one second, I went, what is that? Why did your hand just, what? And I backed my hand off and I let it ring, and I remember telling myself in my mind,

I was like, why would your hand pause to pick up the phone from people that you pay salaries to, who you like in an office that you pay if you're your production company? I let the phone quit ringing, soon as a quit ringing, I picked it up, call my lawyer, I said shut down the production company, shut down the music label. I'm making bees and five things.

I want to make aes and three things. I want to be an actor for hire, have a foundation, be a family man, boom. And that was a great decision. I cleared two things off my desk. It was hard to do. Those people, there were five people that relied were making a living off the salary I was paying them. So I gave them fair severance, but it was, I needed to do that for myself. And I did feel like I did start making much better grades, so to speak, in those three things. Then I was making when I had five. And this is a constant recalibration and calibration, because what we value change is

over time, you know? I mean, I have a few, you know, it's nice to have a few non-negotiable ones that I put up top that you go, no matter how confused you are, Mccanae, this is always at the greatest import. Family. That's up there. Just put that up there and go, nothing needs to ever take that. If you always go to that, you can't lose. I mean, sometimes you just go, you can't be in the debit if you just invest in that. The other thing is, you know, needs and wants. Geez, man, I mean, what's really necessary? I'm in a position where I don't have to work today

to pay my rent tomorrow. I only have one home, I don't have two, but still it's a big nice home. There's a couple of rooms that no one sleeps in, right? I don't need that big of a house, I don't need it. I mean, there's questions that like, why don't you that big of a house. I don't need it. I mean, there's questions of like, why don't you really want to break it down? Get rid of all of it and go get, you know, and go get a three bedroom house, the kids sleep with one room, and mom actually sleeps another and you can come to sleep in the other one and you

pay the rent and they're out of the house and that's it. And I would be just as happy. I know once that decision was made to do that, and cut away all the fluff cut away a lot of the employees and, you know, housekeepers and stuff. But, you know, I don't know. So, so I'm not as I'm not near as lean as I could be for sure. You know? No, I, and that's might be a nice place to wrap up too. I was thinking about that in the book when you're talking about living in your, in your air stream, we bought a, we bought an RV in the middle of the pandemic. We're like, all right, we're not getting on an airplane in a while. If we want to go anywhere, you're going to have to do this old school. And we bought like a little RV with the bunks in the back and, and whatever. And I remember sitting the first time we took it out, we were in, maybe it was Marfa,

maybe it was in Los Cruces, we were on our way to California. And I'm sitting in an RV park, you know, the cost 30 bucks a night, sitting in a camp chair, the cost 20 bucks, you know, cooking hot dogs and the microwave. And I was like, and this is nice, this is really nice.

And you're like, it's high livens. This is all it, this is, when you have that sense of a baseline, it then allows you to turn down a big checker saying, no, we're cut stuff down, because you know how little is actually needed to for you to be happy. Yes.

And you and I've talked about this offline today now with 5G all over the world. That's more of a reality now. Go live where you want, in small place wherever you want. You can be wherever you want over the world. That's more of a reality now. Go live where you want and small place wherever you want. You can be wherever you want in the world. We're seeing that works right now with what we're doing, remotely talking. And how much does that the new future probably quite a bit or more than some people expect? Yeah, the good news is that means a lot of people we know are going to move near us in Austin and then the bad news is they're all going to be in Austin and it's harder. What I love about Austin is it makes it so I'm okay at saying no, but I'm really

good at saying no to things that are happening in cities I don't live in. You know what I mean? Yes. It was harder for me to say no when I lived in New York City or when I lived in LA because it did seem like I should go to that dinner. Right. Yeah, well, it's, you know, back to that original thing we talked about. How do you make your own choice? What's true for you in the middle of it? I mean, you know, I mean, because you could, because that can be overdone, two people can go and think it's all about looking at the world in contrast as well. And it's not true. And when we're truly doing that, it's not.

We're actually more a part of the world and more a part of the rhythms of what goes on outside our windows when we are making our true choices for ourselves. But sometimes, yeah, we look up and we feel like, oh, being the individual means I'm putting a hand up and removing myself from the rhythms of society or the expectations. Because why am I going to the dinner because? I mean, that's what they're doing and it's a dinner and I'll go have a good, maybe you go have a great time.

Maybe you meet somebody great. Sure. Maybe, but I think, don't you think part of it is just if you can be aware of it though and go, I don't have to go to this dinner, right? But you know what, I'm going to go, why are you going to go? Is there a real reason why you got to go? Not really. But I'm going to check it out. I'm curious. That could be a good enough reason. Sure. You know, I mean, I know, you know, it's a constant art of the balance there. And then you just see, you see what comes back, what, what comes back, what residuals come back from our choices. And if we make choices that, that, that give us more consistent residuals, I'll give you,

I'll give you one more mark. I'll give you one more mark. I'll give you one more mark. It's quote that I think helps me on those things. He says, are you afraid of death because you won't be able to do insert the blank anymore? So you go, like, because nobody wants to die, right? We want to live forever. And you go, am I afraid of death? Because I won't be able to do this thing that I'm doing anymore. And you're like, no, I don't know.

That's not it. And then you're like, well, you probably shouldn't be doing that thing. But really spending time with family, et cetera. That is why I don't want to die. So that's a good sign of that it's a good use of your time because that's the hard thing for us to realize is that we are purchasing these things with our life. So yes, they're offering you, you know,

$14 million to be in this romcom, but you are paying them six months of your life living in Vancouver away from your family, potentially not doing creative art. And so I think about that all the time. It's like, okay, here's what you're paying me. What am I paying you? And what's more replaceable? I heard. That's a great question. Oh my God, I'm sitting there thinking right now. I must not be doing the right thing because I can't think of anything that I'm afraid of

missing after death. But then, you know what I mean? Maybe I'm not be doing the right thing because I can't think of anything that I'm afraid of missing after death. But then, you know what I mean? Maybe I'm not giving a straight answer because I've already relatively gone. Well, but it's over and that's the time and how'd you handle the things you love doing until you get there. You know, so maybe I'm contextualizing that question already too quickly and not answering it in raw form.

No, but you told me your priorities are family and then your own work and then doing the other sexy fun stuff. So to me, those are the top. For me, my prior, like when I go like, what do I want? It's like, I wanna keep writing books, not in no order. Keep writing books that I'm proud of.

I wanna stay married and I wanna be a good dad. Those are my three things. And everything else, if it helps me do one of those things great, and if it doesn't, probably a bad thing. Hard. There you go. There you go. Those are three great magnets and you've got them in order.

Yeah. Hey, can I ask you a question? Yes. So I saw the letter to your dad. Yes. Dude, this is so good. I can't believe this is the weird quirk of our time, which is that we met like six months ago And we haven't been able to actually see each other in person and who knows when that'll happen

Right, and hey, I want to thank you for you know, you know when I Sort of coming out with this book you and I have mutual friend that book, you and I have mutual friend that, that, you know, I had, there's many other stories about how we kind of came together here, but it was natural, but you also have been so open, honest, and even forthright about going, hey, this is your first time going to the book, make sure you're doing this or this or this or this or this, and you kind of give me a little guardrails of direction and structure through going with this. It'd been really, really a help. My pleasure. No, it was, it was an honor and you'll know what?

I mean, I don't know when this will come out, but you'll know day after tomorrow, you'll get the news. Unlike, unlike Hollywood, you got to wait three, four days before the box office receipts come in. We'll see. It's been fun. I'm going to do great. I appreciate it, man.

Appreciate it, Ryan. Have a good one. All right, see you. Bye. You know, the Stoics in real life met at what was called the Stoa. The Stoa, Poquile, the Painted Porch in ancient Athens. Obviously, we can't all get together in one place.

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