The Daily Stoic - Matthew McConaughey On Winning the Role of Life

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

On today’s episode, Ryan speaks with Academy Award-winning actor and producer Matthew McConaughey about his approach to the craft of acting, the simple keys to living a happy life, his new book, the #1 best seller Greenlights, and more.Matthew McConaughey has been working in Hollywood for over 25 years, appearing in movies like A Time to Kill, The Wolf of Wall Street, and Dallas Buyers Club. His work in the latter film won him the 2013 Academy Award for Best Actor. McConaughey also works as a producer and spokesperson, and recently released his first book, the bestselling memoir Greenlights.Today’s episode is brought to you by Amazon Music. Amazon Music has a great new promo where you can get your first three months of membership for free. With 70 million songs, millions of playlists, and thousands of radio stations, you’ll never run out of things to listen to—and it works great with your Alexa products. Get this offer now by visiting Amazon.com/ryan. Terms and conditions apply.Today’s episode is also brought to you by Thuma. Thuma has spent thousands of hours making the perfect platform bed frame, called The Bed. The Bed by Thuma is super supportive of your mattress, breathes well, and is built to naturally minimize noise. Thuma ships your bed frame right to your door, and it takes five minutes to assemble, no tools required. Visit Thuma.co/stoic to get free shipping on your order of The Bed today. Today’s episode is also brought to you by Molekule. Molekule makes air purifiers that don’t just trap pollutants and impurities, but destroys them. Molekule’s air purifiers work in all sizes of rooms and are beautifully designed to match with any living space. For 10% off your first order, use promo code STOIC at Molekule.com.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Matthew McConaughey:Twitter: https://twitter.com/McConaugheyInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/officiallymcconaugheyFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/MatthewMcConaughey/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy

in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school. When we have the time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with our journals and to prepare for what the future will bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both

savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke podcast. My guest today is the one and only Matthew McConaughey author of the new book Green Lights. Here's my blurb of it. It shouldn't surprise you that this book is good, but it will surprise you just how good it is. Why is it entertaining? This is an inspiring memoir and how to from one of the great outlaw philosophers and artists of our time. I've been a huge fan of Matthew's work

for a very long time, just like most people on the planet. We happen to be fellow residents, citizens of Austin, Texas. I love obviously the first season of True Detective. It is incredible. Dallas Buyers Club, Wolf of Wall Street, Dazed and Confused, and a million other movies. But more than an actor, a thinker, an entrepreneur, he's the minister of culture at the University of Texas.

I went to the opening home game last year, not this year, but when they could have fans, and it was pretty incredible to see a single human being lead 110,000 people in a cheer. So Matthew's work has impact in sports and art, culture, business, all different domains. And as it happens, he's a fan of the Stokes. We got introduced in the middle of the pandemic by a mutual friend, Michael Rapinole, the CEO of Live Nation, Michael who I've known for a while. Send me an email. He said, Hey, my friends working on a book,

he'd love, I'd love to connect you with them. I thought, sure, whatever, who could this possibly be? You know, sometimes it's a friend of a friend of a friend who self-published a book, and it was his friend, M-M, as he called him. And it turned out to be Matthew McConaughey. Matthew had read some of my books, so we connected right away, and it sort of stayed in touch through the last couple months of quarantine. have not got to meet in person, didn't get to do this in person, but it's been awesome to see his book blow up. It really is a great book.

And so you can listen to the two of us talk philosophy, autonomy in one's career, talk a little politics. So, you know, I'm sure that might trigger a couple of you. We talk about how you find the projects you're interested in. And I think his concept of a green light, taking the green lights that life gives you is a really important stoic concept. Remember, Epictetus says, don't look for life to be a certain way.

Look for life to be as it is, and then you will be happy. And that's really, to me, what the concept of a green light is, it's about taking yes for an answer. So there's a great book, a great interview. I was honored to do this. Matthew's been on a ton of other huge shows. So if you've listened to those, this will be very different because we're talking ancient philosophy and a bunch of other stuff. And it's great looking forward to having you listen. And we'll talk soon. So I thought we'd start this. I've always wanted to ask this question to an actor. There's this great line from Epictetus. He says, you know, life is like being an actor. He says,

you don't get to choose your lines. You just choose how you deliver them. He's basically sending it sort of life is written that you know that there's a higher power who's mostly in control. And then we have this sort of circumscribed role where we do the best we can. It's always struck me as a weird profession, your line of work, in that you have so little actual control of what you do. You get to choose your movies at this point in your career, but you don't control what the other actors do. You don't control what the director does. You don't control the marketing budget. No.

I mean, it's so like the bar still whiskey version that is how you play the hand your dill. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's part of the reason that it did write a book. And I'm gonna go back into the acting. So there's four filters from my first raw expression as an actor. What I do, what I'm doing, someone else is script.

It's being directed by someone else. It's being lends in the camera by someone else and edited by someone else before it's presented in the final form which you see in the theater on TV. It's a little bit of what I do in my class, UT with the script of screen. It's the original script is so different from the final product. Things change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, sometimes it's just completely different.

My job as an actor, and I am only learned this in the last 15 years from the great Penny Allen mentor, who really taught me what acting was. She's like, you have to own your man, your character. You have to be the sole owner of that. You have to know your man upside down, backwards, forwards better than anybody else. It's not the directors anymore. It's not the writers who wrote it anymore. You're the bloodline. You're the expression. The baton has been handled. Now,

to do that, that takes a lot of the work of my version is, I want to come in with four versions of the truth in every scene. So, like you said, when every actor goes off script or changes something up, or the director is completely going to surprise you, I'm calling audibles, I'm ready. And I'm not having to think about it, it's instinctually coming out of me. Now, if I can do that, like I've always said this, my ideal place when I really get to know my man as an actor is put a blindfold on me, take me, I don't care if you take me to Mars, wherever, be rolling camera, be, press record as soon as I walk off and take the

take the blindfold off, and I should be able to behave as my man would in any situation. I don't always get there, but that's the place. And again, I got to have the dialogue to have the monologue, but every character, every actor should know the monologue of his man or his woman. So was that frustrating early on in your career? Because you seem like a sort of an ambitious guy, a guy who wants to, has a lot of artistic expression that you want to get out. Was it hard

for you to sort of see your role as like, especially I guess in movies that maybe you didn't like as much? How do you sort of go in and go, I can only focus on what I do here. I think one of the nice parts about being a writer, as I'm sure you found, is you do have so much more control over the artistic expression. Yeah. Because it's a solo sport. It's golf versus football. Yeah. Well, even though acting, you know, acting, I've learned to understand that, yes, while it's a football, while it's a team sport, I get pretty selfish on that.

I'm like, I mean, I, I, I'm a team player. I love collaboration. I've learned that there's more than, that the, though I may not be wrong, there's more than one way to be right. Or a better word for acting is to be true, to go out and just tell the truth, not about right or wrong. I mean, sometimes, I try to get a measure from a director early on

on what is our measure of excellence. All right, I did this with Gary Ross from Free State of Jones. We're two weeks in a shooting and we're communicating pretty well and he's giving me direction and I'm feeling pretty good about it and what he's got to say and I feel like his meter of excellence is similar to mine. I'm enjoying this direction and I'm giving stuff back to him and he seems to be receiving it but I want to check it. I want to check our relationship. So we do this one, we do the scene one day and I do 10 takes. So after the 10

takes, I said, Gary, come here, We go into the 10 and look at the monitor. I said, I'm going to write down what I think is the select best takes. You write down what you think of the best select takes out of the 10, and then we're gonna swap papers to see if we're seeing things the same. So I write down first half of take four, second half of take two. We watch all 10 takes. We swap papers. I open his paper, it says first half of take four, second half of take two.

We watch all 10 ticks. We swap papers. I open his papers, this first half of take four, second half of take two. Now when that happens, now I'm like, here we go, freedom. You and I are seeing things the same. Doesn't mean we agree on everything,

but we have the same measure of excellence. Like you see that take five, which was really good, but I kind of, I was acting. You see me there? there was a good moment, I anticipated and I tried to put a little cherry on top. It wasn't as true as it was when I did it and take four for the first time. Yes, it's exactly what I saw.

You know, so when we meet there on a measure of what we've deemed excellent or deemed the most true, then the relationship becomes much more collaborative for me, meaning if you're the director and you're telling me to, I don't have any sort of defense up. Now, I've had many of films I've done where the director and I are not seeing eye-to-eye on my character or what the truth is for my character.

And boy, they open their mouth and I'm going, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, hmm, yep, yep. And the other thing is to go out there, this has been said long before I'm saying it now, but in Hollywood they say, if the director ever says, well, give me one take my way, just for me. If you do it, that takes what's gonna, they're gonna put that take in a movie. No matter how, no matter if you did it, that will or not.

Most of the time they're gonna put that in a movie. I feel like that's a good question. Well, I find myself asking people that question a lot when I work on books for people. It's sort of like what does success actually look like here? Because I find like so obviously it's one problem when people aren't aligned. But I find maybe a more common issue is actually nobody has even thought about what success looks like and they're just sort of waning it. You know what I mean?

You seem like a guy who goes in with a strong sense of what you want. Absolutely. You know, absolutely. Look, I am not really one for jumping off and saying, well, that's, that's way, I have succeeded though when that has happened, actually. And sometimes after a mind myself now to be more open to saying just let it go. Just whatever.

But I do. I am a fan of writing the headline before writing the story. I am a fan of before doing a movie sitting down before we've shot one scene with the producers and the director and going, what's the poster? Just where, where are we heading? What kind of movie look like? I mean, if the poster is a that close up silhouette of my face, that means, oh, the director's really going to follow this

like a real lead character drama. It's going to be a real character piece. If the poster is a big broad landscape with a sunsetting in the background and a lightning bolt and some shadows, some silhouettes in the background, oh, okay, that's more of a backward epic. It's going to be more about story than character. You know what I mean?

So I'm getting in my mind. What is that place we're going? And that poster will change. It's like my own headline will change, but it gives me, I'd love to have that bit of a goal line just to understand where we're going. It's what I say in the book about like, look, just give me this just conservative, vertebral leg. Let's define our direction. We

go in North-South East to West. Please pick that. Now give yourself 16 lanes to square of and you can take the feet or road off all you want because you're out, you're going in the general direction. You're either heading towards Florida, California, Montana or Mexico, which way are we going? Well, I was going to ask about the book. You know, if this idea of a green light, if you don't act like there's this quote from Santa Coo, which I love, he says, if you don't know which port you're sailing to, no wind is favorable. So this idea of hitting the green lights, obviously you want to hit the green lights, but if you're going in the wrong direction, actually hitting the green lights is the worst possible gift you could get. So having a clear sense of what you want is essential.

gift you could get. So having a clear sense of what you want is essential. Intentional and deliberate choice to go that way. And then I know for me, if I have, if we have that, then it's easy to dance and blow in the wind, you know, create your weather, then blow in the wind. But I'm not for just saying, yeah, whatever, we're heading out. Wait a minute, I want to check the forecast where I am right now, maybe 82 degrees, but where we're going, it's going to be negative 12. Yeah, if I head out without checking, I'm going to be cold where I'm going. So let's just check out some general things and say, what can we should be prepared for? What are the general rules of engagement that I'm heading into? And then be free to dance and go, yeah, I'm ready

to do back flips with my eyes closed. No, and that was one of the things I was really interested in in the book is your sort of deliberate decision to change the trajectory or the arc of your career. So yeah, on the one hand, an actor doesn't have a ton of control over what happens in the movie, but you do have some control over what movies you choose to be in or not. And so, yeah, your decision to say like, hey, I'm gonna be a different kind of actor, then allowed you to say yes and no to certain movies

that probably seem totally crazy to other people, to your peers, to your management team, but you knew where you wanted to go. So actually being offered, you know, X amount for this know, X amount for this movie, no amount of money made it the right decision. No, because I had hit a red light with my soul and myself. I had hit a red light where it wasn't about how much money that was giving me. It was about, wow, these, I'm going to work. It's easy, it's fun.

Nothing wrong with that. Let's not be, you know, okay, I remember telling myself, hey, nothing wrong with that. Let's not just, again, let's not trip ourself running downhill here. I said, but man, I think there's a way, and I want to find a way where my work is challenging me, where I'm having an experience in the work, where I'm growing in the work, where it's challenging the vitality I have in my life which was feeling very vital and has been feeling very vital. So that was a red light for me is that when I would go to work I feel like why didn't feel as much in life as I do in real life and it felt like, okay, I'm going to work. This is too easy.

And it's supposed to be easy, but is that really what I want? So I had a red light in my life. I was not growing through my work at that time. And so that's why I stopped doing what I was doing and did turn to that. And it wouldn't have mattered. People go like, well, look, that big offer you got for 14, whatever. If that had been 20, would you have done it? I was like, no, I mean, I really wouldn't.

I would have probably re-read it again just to say, I think I should. That would be the responsible thing just to consider it. But I was never that that my check was, I had already cashed that check with my soul saying, I'm not going back. It's a champagne problem certainly, but it's not easy to do, right? To say no to, when people, when it's hard to say no to socially acceptable things. Yes. And socially acceptable when they are the best champagne in the world. I mean, as far as the taste, it's a very shiny gold things were in front of me. And they weren't the devil. They weren't evil. They weren't tyrannical. They were, I felt

they would be tyrannical to me in doing them and to spend my time there. And so it was difficult. And it is difficult to say no to something. But you know this. You talk about it all the time. There was, there was, that was the great power in the, in the know. I mean, I had, look, could I have made that decision ten years prior? No, obviously, and I didn't make that decision ten years prior. Remember, I come in, you come into something, and this goes along with the line I bring up about being less impressed and more involved. Look, I'm just still impressed with this industry and impressed that, wow, I get to do this. I would do it for free. There's not one film that I've done that I would not do for

free because I love the work. But you can't roll through going, I'm still just so happy to be here. You're offering me that work. Of course, you have to be discerning. There's only 24 hours of the day and we've got to schedule through a year. You can't do everything you want to do if you're in a fortunate position with James. So I had to make choices and life is short. It's so short. You know, even though it does seem to last a while sometimes overall, it's very short. So, you know, yeah, to say no to those things was hard, but I had a hunch that there was a joke in the deck at the end of the line somewhere.

I didn't know when the end of the line was. It was going to come, but it did about two years later. I'm glad you brought up free-stated jokes, because that's actually maybe my favorite movie of yours. And I told Bob Simmons of STX, who I've gotten to know over the years that I love that movie. And I think he joked, oh, you're the only one.

You're the person that's dating. So that's probably part of it too, which is, I don't know about you, but I feel like some of the stuff that I'm most proud of is the stuff that the least amount of people have seen. Right. Sometimes, sometimes, I know it. You know, and I've learned this, hang on,

because sometimes they resurrect themselves down the line somewhere where they get found. And, you know, I've been through times of my life with the work I'm doing that I dislike the most or don't love the most is maybe accepted the most, but maybe by people that I'm like, that's not really the people that I appreciate. Right. Respect the most. But I have found this, I think I'm trying to think what has done it, I've had a couple that disappeared, never got there head above water.

Films are like, ah, just came and went, no one even knows it came and went. And then five, 10 years later, obviously it has a little resurrection. Hey, man, I was watching last night and this came out, that's a great movie. Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, and it'll happen. So sometimes patiently it comes. Buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh. And it'll happen.

So sometimes patiently it comes. And then I always like to think of it like, like, you know, try to have a career. This is a lofty thought, but like a dillet. You know, he just pounded out albums, man, and things, and, and, and, and, you know, Willie Nelson, they just, they just, they just pound out albums and keep hammering you with them.

And certain ones rise later on. If you look back at the history of career, like a dill and like that, you go, man, he was expressed as he was along the way and wasn't really worried about the result. And there are some absolute gems here. No, it's like quantity is actually a way to get to quality. Maybe they're not always at odds with each other the way people think that they are. Maybe. And the other, well, the other thing is,

I would say that artists like that you're saying, quantity is just, have quantity if you want to put, if that's what it ended up being. And if you're going like, I have to keep creating here. I have to keep creating. I just finished one. I gotta go to work again.

I gotta do it again. I'm in a golden age of creativity with myself. I need to just keep putting that content. Good. Do so. Because you're doing it for you. And you're not doing it for the result of, well, wait a minute.

Now mind you, I, that sabbatical I took, I did sacrifice quantity at that time. Sure. But I was not allowed, I knew that I was not being allowed at the time to play in the sandboxes that I wanted to play in. Right. And I wanted to play in different sandboxes. So I said, you can keep nailing quantity in the sandboxes you've been in, this romantic

comedy sandbox, which is the only one that let you play in. But it was sort of feel revolutionary, sort of feel very circular. Like they're all sort of the same. Boy meets girl, they break up, boy chase girl, cussed her at the end, roll the credits week happy. You know, I mean, that's it. They're all the same in this. That's fine. But I was looking for, I was looking for roles that I go, geez, I don't know what I'm going to do with this. It scares me. I'm sweating in my boots, then this. Oh. That is what I was looking for. Buzz, I was looking for the buzz.

Well, that's how it's going to ask you about Newtonite. You're such a fascinating character. It must have been weird too, as a born and raised southerner to play this sort of guy that is neither North nor South. Right? And it strikes me as, we need more people. when we first met, I said this to you, but it was like, I feel like we need more people like that these days, people who make, make decisions for themselves, not decisions based on identity or affiliation or

you know, the idea of breaking away from the South in the South is just an incredible, incredible, amount of, moral and physical courage. Yeah, I mean, look, and I'm with you, and I've spoken a little bit about this offline. Right now, to the 2020, right now, the individual has more, the private sector all the way down to the individual has more power than ever and should take advantage of that power. I don't know how to make systemic change, but we can each look in the mirror and make the choice and go, I am an individual. And it's within that that really, I found this with the book, the more personal I got with the book, the more relatable it was

to more people. The more I dove into the eye, the more it was relatable to the weak. Well, it's in that individual choice with ourselves, not parried to any party or anything else. That's where we create the collective. Right. And people say that is, I think a contradiction. And I do often sometimes myself, but that's what I know I'm trying to chase. Go, no, the actual, the best decision for the eye is actually the best decision for the way. The most selfless decision is the most selfless decision. And vice versa, best decision for the

we is the most for the eye. But before you try to, it's a little that act, act locally first, then, then globally. It's, look itself first. And that will open yourself up to what is how we become a collective, how you're acting, what the best decisions for the Wii, what is the most self less decision. But there are much more paradox than a contradiction, I think, that most of us make them sometimes. But that goes to your definition of acting earlier, you define acting as sort of the decision to be true. I think what you see in a character like that, or what you see in these sort of people, whether

it's a Martin Luther or a Martin Luther King, the sort of here I stand, I can do no other. I am incapable of not being true to myself in this moment. Come what will. Well, and there you go. So, so, and this happens when going back to roles that I'll play in acting or who we are in life, like people you brought up. All right. Pages and go through major amounts of intellectual rigor to find my man, so to speak. But you know, here's when I really have it. And here's when I really have myself in life when you go, yeah, but why? But my answer is very simple, because that's who I am. There's nothing more. There's no adjunct, no adverbs, because. Yeah. Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh- Kato, although there was a few other still X after they're known as the stoic opposition, there sort of came this, the emperor would sort of go like, why can't you just be normal? You know, like, why can't you just go along with everybody else?

Why is this so important to you? You're like the only one that's not going along. And then, and then, as you said, you sort of boil it down and you boil it down and you go, because that's who I am and I don't have a choice. Everyone else might have a choice, but I don't have a choice. Yeah. And if you can get there, beautiful. And I say, you know, I'm all, everybody, if you're not a tyrant in those choices, you know

what I mean? Then set sail. I mean, I think that actually family structure and societies are sort of built like that anyway. That you create a formation. This is what's expected up you, everyone told the line, and there's a lot of great things to that. They keep order, they keep, they gave us form structure,

let us know, but certain individuals, at certain times, when you break out of it and go your own way, and the powers that be, the father or society goes, no, you can't do that. But if you are not asking permission and you fully own it, obviously you do it, Steve Jobs, whatever, society in the family goes, there you go. They applaud it.

Sure. But the thing is, it's that thing, you know, you go, when I went to my father to say I wanted to go to film school and to law school, he heard my voice that I meant it. If I'd have been like, well, I think I want, I want, he'd have probably popped off and got mad because he'd been challenged to be, no, no, no, no, you're not coming at me.

Don't come at me with it with a request until you've committed to it. And you're gonna do it with or without my approval. And that, when I did that, he was like, yes, don't have acid. That's my boy. And I noticed it, he appreciated that his son being a rebel and going his own way by hook or by crook. In one conversation, within 10 seconds on a phone,

my dad heard it and we made a full transition in our relationship and I was launched out and he saw me becoming a phone, my dad heard it, and we made a full transition in our relationship, and I was launched out, and he saw me becoming a man by my own choices. Is this thing on? Check one, two, one, two. Hey, y'all. I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur,

and a Virgo, just the name of you. Now, I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me, Kiki Keep a Bag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a bag love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started. And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the baby

this is Kiki Palmer podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind. What will former child stars be if they weren't actors? What happened to sitcoms? It's only fans, only bad. I want to know.

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Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. I like your point about you have to be sort of a tyrant or an asshole about it. There's an F-SCOD Fitzgerald story called The Four Fists. And it's about this sort of very principled guy.

But at some point, he's a, I think, in one of the, in one of the sort of pivotal moments in the story, if I'm remembering this correctly, he's in one of the pivotal moments in the story if I'm remembering this correctly. He's in this business deal. And if he does the right thing, he's almost certainly going to be fired and lose his job. And then his family and his children will suffer. And he's sort of wrestling with the, oh, to do the right thing here is actually a selfish thing.

And so that must have been hard too, as you think, and obviously again, champagne problems. But as you're thinking about, you're like, hey, I could do this and my family will be set for life. But I'm tired of being in romantic comedies. You know what I mean? Like, there's a part of you that probably could go, but I'll just got this out. I'll just do it anyway, even though I don't want to, because it's the responsible thing. Well, those responsible things, expect a thing to trust me, my family, my blood family, my brothers and mother and brother, or like, what the, is you probably, what are you doing? And you're getting, you're mentally meditating, macombat, Matthew, little brother, you're like, oh, locked up, you're overthinking

this. You're paralysis of analysis, you know? And I was like, no, and I had that discussion where I was able to say to them, that's not, I'm not, I'm just not up for debate. I'm not, I'm not coming to you going, what do you think? The ship is sailed. I'm doing it. And soon as they had to set that, they're like, there you go, little brother. All right, good luck. I don't get it, but he does. All right. And then it was, I was in. Then there was no, they, they, they, they, they, they had my back from then on, but they still didn't understand it,

but they knew that, oh, this was not open for discussion with me, with the choice I've made. Yeah, I guess that's where this idea of courage comes in, but I was thinking too about, you know, the idea of green lights. It's almost like you decide what you want. And then it's often the people who you care about most who throw up the red lights because they're worried about it. Right. Right. This is interesting. Yeah. Um, you know, and to go back a second to your comment before, which is about these green lights, it's, and I haven't really talked about this in the book, but it's a further conversation

from it is, which green lights, some green lights are plugged into a two-volt battery. Yeah. They shine bright for the moment, but they're not going to last. Some green lights are solar powered. They're eternal. They're going to shine. They're eternal. They're gonna shine after we're gone. Now, if we get plugged into those and make those kind of green lights non-negotiable and be able to see, oh, this is a green light right now, but it's a stop, not a stay. Oh,

the ones that are plugged in the batteries will turn red quickly, as what I'm saying. We'll get the red and yellow because you should get the red and yellow either by someone else that's around you and cares for you or through your own self going like well this is a stop not a stay. This is this is just a little vacation. This isn't a true green light. I'm giving myself this hedonistic experience right now and realizing it to green light but this this is kind of, you know, and I've had many times of that in my life where I was like, okay, I'm gonna ride this green light right now and I'm gonna press gas and I'm gonna go

and I'm gonna enjoy, I'm gonna give myself a license. And I'm not gonna slow, you're usually I would slow down tomorrow, I'm not gonna slow down, I'm gonna give myself an entire month, you know, and that's okay as long as I, it's only okay when I realize it early though, because sometimes we can go chasing those battery-powered green lights that aren't really true for us now and tomorrow, we can chase those until we're out of gas

and you're standing in front of the real green light and you got no gas to go. You got nothing to reserve tank, you're out of it, you know? Don't you think your point about sort of there being bright green lights and maybe some faint green lights? Like I was just talking to my editor on my first sort of book about stoicism. I was sort of asking, I was like, hey, what did you think in retrospect when I came to you, you know, wanting to write a sort of a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy? They were like, well, look, we were just basically telling you yes, because we hoped you would get discouraged

and then go back to your other books. Okay. And so that sort of, I love the story in the book about your first movie. Yeah, you were in the movie. Like they gave you a green light to be in the movie, but you sort of took that for everything that it's worth. Like just because there's a green light

doesn't mean it's gonna be straight green lights from here. You might go out as soon as you pass through. Yeah, and don't put it on cruise control just because you caught a green light. Yeah, keep your hands on the wheel, and keep driving and navigating. And along the way, as I say,

and keep your eye open for, as you said earlier, when do we have enough green lights? We like, wait, I think this is this is this is a battery powered on. I need to pull off and catch a yellow here. I need to take balls. I need to take a repose. I need, I need a red light. Oh, I need some resistance. The stopping thing or to make sure you're not ahead of the right direction. Yeah. Yeah. Make sure you're ahead in the direction. Oh, geez. And I've got a, I've got a great story about that. That didn't what included in the book, but it was coming across the 24 mile bridge of overlay Pacha train coming back from the set of a dial spires club.

It's a 24 mile bridge, longest single standing bridge, I believe, over by the way. So, I think there's a longer one in China, but there is. But, since we met, we claim whatever, right. Well, so I get over that bridge. And as I've been driving and that bridge, I've been, I've been bagging race. I had an ad sun for, for months. I'm listening to Dylan Baggert. I get off that bridge after I get over it, pull off, go into Sonic, get a root 44 cherry

line made, get back on the road. And I'm driving. And I'll say that then noticed that sun's behind me now. I'm like, Oh, shit. Oh, no, Bill, oh, I got back on the bridge going back east bound. Right. And I couldn't exit. I couldn't, I was going the wrong direction. Yeah, there's no turn around on that. And there's no turn around. Yeah. The full 24 miles down and get off. And I remember just chuckling to myself, you know, I'm going, okay,

well, I guess you needed some sun on the back of your head. I guess you needed to listen to more Dylan. And I guess you needed to enjoy the anticipation of going home to see your wife for another hour and a half. So, you know, yeah, sometimes we just go in the wrong direction and we need that, we need that red light. It's weird though,

some of those are like my favorite moments. Like when I think of like moments that really stick in my mind of like when I was happy or when life felt really good, it was some weird moment like that. It wasn't, you know, accepting the Oscar, you know, putting number one or whatever, it's weirdly, it was like, oh yeah, I was drinking a soda, driving down a bridge and it hit me. I was going, yeah, the world was slow, and it hit me. I was going, yeah. The world was slow enough that I could actually be present for a second.

Yes. Well, I'll do, I call it a malaprop. You know, some of my best moments have been in malaprops. Some of my funniest jokes, people laughed harder when they thought I said something else in the punchline than actually what I meant to say. Right. And so I'm like, none of you,

and I've stopped myself from interupt up because I don't want to keep them from laughing because they were not as funny and they misunderstood it. And I'm like, just go with it, go with it. Yeah, take it, take it sometimes. Um, well, those are, you know, that to bring up pinion again, I've told you she was my earlier mentor. She would always tell me, and this is a good one

for life as well, because I love to prepare. I love to be deliberate, intentional. I love to be come into the game solid. I'm in solid footing. And she was like, okay, you got that down, Matthew. Now, Matthew, you got that down. Here's how I want you to enter every scene. On one foot off-balance and then find your balance in the scene. And I think that's a bit of that mallop you're talking about, those moments where you find yourself going the wrong way on the bridge, having your cherry soda, you're off balance again, now you have to find your way back. That's where we're in action. You know, that's where we're not a noun and we're actually a verb, because rather than, and that's what's fun to see, that's what's fun to experience is how I'm

going to find my footing again here, not winter solid. When we're all in solid footing. It's kind of boring sometimes. You know, I mean, when you ask her, you're not growing muscle. So another question on green lights, because I saw you had Mark Manson, blah, blah, blah, blah, who I love and is a friend. She has this thing, and it's one of his more popular articles, he says sort of like, it's fuck yes or no. Basically that you either really want to do it, you have to do it, you would rather die than not do it, or you're gonna pass on it. Right.

And that's true, that's definitely, I get the logic of it, but there's also a tricky part there because I feel like some of the decisions I've made, whether it was dropping out of college or leaving my job to become an author, there were also decisions that I made that I was pretty sure I was making the wrong decision, and I was terrified as I was making them. And it was very close to being those like, I'm so going to regret this, but it turned out to be the right thing. So how do you know? You know what I mean? How do you know? I do know, you know what I mean. I mean, look, I'm a, I'm known in Hollywood

as a quick-known along, yes. What I'll do is, if there's something I really want to do, I'm say, let's call it a movie. And I read, oh, I like this character, and I've checked out, who asked the pedigree around it. He's the director, the financing, it's gonna make a real movie, et cetera, et cetera. Before I'll say yes, my nose are pretty quick.

Before I'll say yes, I'll go, okay, I'm doing it. I'm doing it, Camilla, I'm doing it. Matthew, we're doing it. Here we go, set and tell, we're leaving it. We're leaving it two months going away. That's in my mind. And everything about me with that script is now I'm just looking through the lens if that's gonna be my mind. And everything about me with that script is now, I'm looking through the lens

if that's gonna be my future. Sure. And man, I'm gonna have it. Now, do I wake up in the middle of the night, three nights later? I'm still concerned about that damn director, man. I'm not sure, am I trying to make him worry, but trying to make that work?

Or do I wake up at the minute, oh man, that script is second act that writers just say, yeah, we'll fix it on set, we'll just work with you. If that doesn't work, the whole script doesn't work. Do I trust that? What's keeping me up? Then I'll go to, all right. And this is before I make any decision.

Sure. I'll live a week or two weeks with that. Then I'll go, I'm not doing it. Now I'm gonna go for two weeks. I'm not doing that. Get that script. Done. Guys, change the schedule.

We're not going off to be that man. We're not doing it. Now what keeps me up at night? Does anything wake me up? If I sleep well, that's a pretty good sign that, yeah, you probably shouldn't do it. Because when you were gonna do it, you'll, those other things will wake you up.

Now, if I'm waking up in the middle and I go, ah, I gotta do that guy. I gotta be that man, I gotta, no, I, oh, no, I have to. I don't care. I can work with this director and I'm gonna start on the second act right now working with those writers. We're gonna make this happen

because I, the idea of not doing that, I'm gonna feel regret it so bad. No way, I've got to do it, I have to. Well, that's a good reason to go. I'm in, but I give's a good reason to go. I'm in. But I give myself about 10 days to two weeks in each frame of mind. Yes, I am.

No, I'm not. And then I measure what wakes me up at night. So a quick no in a long yes. Yeah. Interesting. So I don't want to put you on this spot. And we can cut it or we can, we can not make the details of it specific.

When the project that you and I connected about early on, we didn't know we were even in the same universe bumping up against each other on it. One of the reasons as you were thinking about not doing it, you said you like being you. You were gonna pass on it right now because you like being you at this moment. I loved that answer.

What the hell does that mean? Okay, so that script I want to say, we didn't say the name of, was a great script and it is great script. And well done, right? We kind of, the way you and I kind of came together is kind of really cool from some outside influences. It was really well written and really a great read.

I am having a lot of fun being me right now. And I say that without any, you know, you print that to people go, Oh, that's Eric. No, trust me. I've had plenty of times. I don't like being me right now. It's not one of those times. Thanks. Sure. I am the role in the life I'm living right now have been living for the last couple of years. Is turning me on daily so much. I cannot wait for Monday morning. I, I, I, things, family work creatively, the things that the, the choices I'm making and the, where I'm investing my time in life. I'm looking at this whole, this, the big movie, the big movie's life.

Right. And there are quarters always on. And I'm having a good time trying to challenge myself to go, be the man you want to be. Be the man you are and want to be right now live 24-7. You really want to put on the boots? Mcconnaught, as I'll call myself a third person, which I have no problem with that.

Put those boots on. Quit acting like, want to be one. Let's go. Now I'm having a wonderful time. I get more mad now, more sad. I get more joy. I'm laughing hard. I'm feeling resonance with the thing I'm doing.

I'm feeling a lineage with things I'm building. I feel like I really have a really, really long, long view of where I'm doing. I'm feeling a lineage with things I'm building. I feel like I really have a really, really long, long view of what, where I'm going. And so that's what I mean. I'm having. And the book is part of this, a part of that, you know, you've written. It is a singular expedition. And to go back, I had such a great time. I had the best creative time I've ever had writing this book. I laughed, I cried, I drew blood, but I had the best time I've ever had with the best company I've ever kept writing this book. Me, and again, I say that freely because I've been

not my favorite company, linear times. So I can speak of the asset section because I've had plenty of the debit. So to idea of going, oh, I'm going to leave my life what I'm living right now. I'm going to leave trying to execute and be the man that I want to be right now. I'm going to leave how much, how nervous it makes me, how anxious, how excited I get about it. I'm going to leave the idea of creating this minister of culture and what's that going to do going forward. And say, I'm going to go away and do someone else's script, yours, mine you up very, very, very good one.

Be directed by someone else, lens by someone else, edited by someone else, playing someone else or another part of me that I'm not completely playing now. Well, that's a lot of filters away from my direct expression to just go do something and put it in a capsule and let that live for time. I'm like, well, let's, let's, what about the experiment of this, every day, every hour, every minute, being part of the capsule. And if we live on 100 years, it's a 100-year capsule. If we live 80 years,

it's an 80-year capsule. But all of that, let that be. We don't, your action was called, we were born, cut is only called one time, and that's when we died. How are we doing in this take? This is the take, I'm like, I don't wanna get out of this take. I love that, it's always struck me how rare that is. And I'm sure you've met many, many successful people and some of the most talented artists of your time. It's always striking how little autonomy and freedom

some of these people have in their lives. Like when you look at their schedule, right? Like, hey, what are you doing? And I go do this. And I find myself doing that all the time because it's really hard to say no. Yes, but also,

you know, you and I were talking there earlier and right now I'm not, I'm not. Even for Save We Said Forget the Book Tour and I'm not working on a film set. I'm not on vacation. I mean, my days are full. Sure. And I'm in my office working, doing stuff,

but I'm not, I was writing this last night about we gotta get to where we enjoy, enjoy more enjoy getting ready to do the work. Sure. So we gotta get to a space where we go like, no, I know this work. I got things I gotta do this afternoon that are from prior commitments. It's, I we got to get to a space where we go like, no, I know this work. I got things I got to do this afternoon that are from prior commitments. It's, I'm enjoying talking about the book and going on talking to people like yourself right now. I've been doing it for three weeks and I'm enjoying that. This other thing I got to do this

afternoon has nothing to do with it, but it's from a contract with another affiliation I have that helps pay my rent and one I enjoy doing. But I got to get another headspace to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't wanna do that. But what's my alternative? Not doing it? And if I don't do it, okay, you willing to give up that contract? No, I'm not actually.

So if I don't do it and try to put it off, I'm gonna double up the work for the next time I gotta do it. And trust me, on that day, I know that on that day, when I do it in the future, and if I push it down the road, I'm not gonna have a free day then either. So that day's gonna be like, well, I don't wanna do today, but now I gotta even do twice as much as I did back then.

So I'm like, get the axe out, man. Just take another swing of the tree. Just keep on working. Keep on swinging the axe. And if the work that I'm doing is feeding me in the long run and being true to me, then that's the kind of hard work that I think we need to lean in to go. I'm gonna find a way to enjoy this.

If I'm gonna do it, do it pleasure. This happens all the time with people in my industry. You go to a talk shit, they don't like doing press. Ah, I can't be, I don't wanna do this. I don't like, well don't. I mean, go, just don't. I'm not being facetious serious, you just go home. And like, well, no, I mean, I can't, I'm go, okay.

The inevitable thing is that you're saying you're doing the press, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I got to do it. Okay. So now that we're here, what the fuck do, let's, let's do this. I mean, what's the, let's have a better time doing something you don't want to do than a shitty time doing something you don't want to do if you're going to do it? Well, I think that's the balance, right?

It's like you say, you say no to all, and Mark's really says this because you got to ask yourself every minute, is this essential? Is the thing I'm doing essential? And the upshot of that question is a lot of the things you're doing are not essential and therefore you don't need to do them. Right. What he says, the double benefit is that you do the fewer things better. And I think that's where you want to get.

As you say, no to most things. And then the things you say yes to you either Actually like doing them. Well, you don't like doing that. What you do them like they matter. Right. Oh, I've had did you know I'm a great over leveraged your You know put me in a I got a great work ethic. I'm like I'll but I have to watch you taking on too much stuff Yes, because I'm like I can do it. I can do it. You don't have that give it to me. I'll, what I have to watch is taken on too much stuff. Yes, because I'm like, I can do it. I can do it. You don't have that. Give it to me. I'll take care of it. Yep. Come on. I'll line it up.

And I'm good at it. I've got resilience. I've gotten endurance. I'll outlast a lot of people and outwork them. I did have a time though, probably 15, right around that time when I took off the romcoms inside Take Two Years Off, where my phone rang. I had a production company at a music label. I was an actor. I had a foundation. I was a family man. My phone rang, I had a production company at a music label, was an actor, I had a foundation,

I was a family man, my phone rang. And as I went to pick it up, I saw it was a number from my office where I have five, six employees and I pay the rent in a beautiful office. As I went to pick up the phone, my hand paused, mid-reach. I didn't wanna pick up the phone. And in one second, I went, what is that?

Why does your hand just, what? And I backed my hand off and I let it ring. And I remember telling myself in my mind, I was like, why would your hand pause to pick up the phone from people that you pay salaries to, who you like in an office that you pay for your production company? I let the phone quit ringing. As soon as I quit ringing, I picked it up,

called my lawyer. I said, shut down the production company, shut let the funk quit ringing, soon as a quit ringing, I picked it up, called my lawyer, I said shut down the production company, shut down the music label. I'm making bees and five things. I want to make aes and three things. I want to be an actor for hire, have a foundation, be a family member, boom. And that was a great decision. I cleared two things off my desk.

It was hard to do. Those people, there were five people that relied who were making a living off the salary I was paying them. So I gave them fair severance, but I needed to do that for myself. And I did feel like I did start making much better grade, so to speak, in those three things, then I was making when I had five.

And this is a constant recalibration and calibration, because what we value change is over time. I mean, I have a few, it's nice to have a few non-negotiable ones that I put up top that you go, no matter how confused you are, Makanae, this is always at the greatest import. Family. Sure. That's up there. Just put that up there and go, nothing needs to ever take that. If you always go to that, you can't lose. I mean, sometimes you just go, you can't be in the debit if you just invest in that. The other thing is,

you know, needs and wants. Geez, man. I mean, what's really necessary? I'm in a position where I don't have to work today to pay my rent tomorrow. I only have one home. I don't have two, but still it's a big, nice home. There's a couple of rooms that no one sleeps in, right? I don't need that big of a house. I don't need it. I mean, there's questions that like, why don't you really want to break it down, get rid of all of it. And go get, you know, and go get a three bedroom house, the kids sleep in one room, and mom actually sleeps another and you can sleep in the other one and you pay the rent and they're out of the house and that's it.

And I would be just as happy, I know, once that decision was made to do that and cut away all the fluff, cut away a lot of the employees and you know housekeepers and stuff and go but you know I don't so so I'm not is I'm not near as lean as I could be for sure. And that's might be a nice place to wrap up to I was thinking about that in the book when you're talking about living in your in your air stream. that in the book when you're talking about living in your air stream, we bought an RV in the middle of the pandemic, we're like, all right, we're not getting on an airplane in a while. If we wanna go anywhere, you're gonna have to do this old school. And we bought like a little RV with bunks in the back

and whatever. And I remember sitting the first time we took it out, we were in, maybe it was Marfa, maybe it was in Los Cruces, we were on our way to California. And I'm sitting in an RV park, you know, the cost 30 bucks a night, sitting in a camp chair, the cost 20 bucks, you know, cooking hot dogs on the microwave. And it was like, man, this is nice. This is really nice. And you're like, it's all livens. This is all it,

this is when you have that sense of a baseline, it then allows you to turn down a big checker saying, no, we're cut stuff down, because you know how little is actually needed to for you to be happy. Yes. And you and I've talked about this offline today now with 5G all over the world.

That's more of a reality now. So live where you want, in small place wherever you want. You can be wherever you want in the world. We're seeing that works right now with what we're doing, remotely talking. And how much is that the new future? Probably quite a bit or more than some people expect. Yeah, the good news is that means a lot of people we know are going to move near us in Austin, and then the bad news is they're all going to be in Austin and it's harder.

What I love about Austin is it makes it so I'm okay at saying no, but I'm really good at saying no to things that are happening in cities I don't live in. You know what I mean? It was harder for me to say no when I lived in New York City or when I lived in LA because it did seem like I should go to that dinner. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, you know, back to that original thing we talked about, how do you make your own choice? What's true for you in the middle of it? I mean, you know, I mean, because you can, because that can be overdone, two people can go and think it's all about

looking at the world in contrast as well. And it's not true. And when we're truly doing that, it's not. We're actually more a part of the world and more a part of the rhythms of what goes on outside our windows when we are out making our true choices for ourselves. But sometimes, yeah, we look up and we feel like,

oh, being the individual means I'm putting a hand up and removing myself from the rhythms of society or the expectations because, why am I going to the dinner because? I mean, that's what they're doing and it's a dinner and I'll go have a good, maybe you a great time maybe you meet somebody great. Sure. You know maybe maybe but I think don't you think part of it is just if you can be aware of it though and go I don't have to go to this dinner right but you know what I'm gonna go why are you gonna

go there real reason why you gotta go not really but I'm gonna check it out. I'm curious. That could be a good enough reason. Sure. You know, I mean, I know, you know, it's a constant art of the balance there. And then you just see what comes back, what residuals come back from our choices. And if we make choices that give us more consistent residuals. So give you one more Marcus quote that I think helps me on those things. He says, are you afraid of death because you won't be able to do insert the blank anymore? So you go, like, because nobody wants to die, right? We want to live forever.

And you go, am I afraid of death because I won't be able to do this thing that I'm doing anymore? And you're like, no, I don't know. That's not it. Then you're like, well, you probably shouldn't be doing that thing. But spending time with family, et cetera, that is why I don't want to die. So that's a good sign of that it's a good use of your time. Because you're spent. That's the hard thing for us to realize is that we are, we are purchasing these things with our life.

So yes, they're offering you, you know, $14 million to be in this romcom, but you are paying them six months of your life living in Vancouver away from your family, potentially not doing creative art. And so, I think about that all the time. It's like, okay, here's what you're paying me, but what am I paying you? And what's more replaceable? I heard. That's a great question. Oh my God, I'm sitting here thinking right now. I must not be doing the right thing because I can't think of anything

that I'm afraid of missing after death. But then, you know what I mean? Maybe I'm not giving a straight answer because I've already relatively gone. Well, when it's over and that's the time and how'd you handle the things you love doing until you get there? You know, so maybe I'm contextualizing that question already too quickly and not answering it in raw

form. No, but you told me your priorities are family and then your own work and then doing the other sexy fun stuff. So to me, those are the top. For me, my prior, like when I go like, what do I want, it's like, I want to keep writing books, not in no order, keep writing books that I'm proud of. I want to stay married and I want to be a good dad not in no order. Keep writing books that I'm proud of. I want to stay married and I want to be a good dad. Those are my three things. And everything else, if it helps me do one of

those things great, and if it doesn't, probably a bad thing. I heard that there you go. There you go. That those are three great magnets and you've got them in order. Hey, can I ask you a question? Yes. So I saw the letter to your dad. Yes. What you're really like. Let's talk. You wouldn't talk. You might not talk about the difference between the message and the messageers. Sure. From our fathers. I mean, I know when my father moved on, even immediately at the Irish weight two days after he passed on, I heard his old friends started sharing stories that I was like, no, no, no, no, that's not my dad. He, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I felt weak, I felt vapid, then all of a sudden I got pissed, and I put out what happened is I very quickly got to a place

and I was like, oh, okay, okay, that's okay. You don't, he at least was passing on trying to let me do a little bit better. So I need to, that doesn't mean I need to dismiss those values that he taught me that he maybe didn't live by. But I gotta really work on those, that's why he handed them to me. So I forgive him for that, even though he may have forgotten those for himself.

There's a weird thing about hypocrisy, right? Because there's obviously hypocrisy is bad. And I'm not saying my dad's a hypocrite. And I'm just saying, as a society, we get really upset when we hear someone said one thing and did another. But it's it oftentimes we use what they did to invalidate what they said. But if what they said is right, then we should we should just go, oh, that's like like, uh, it's really hard to live up to this stuff, right?

Right. That doesn't undermine that it's worth striving for, right? So with my dad, I think a lot of people are going through this. It's like, it's not that your parents' support of, say, some bad political leaders means that all the things they tell you were untrue. It's like, no, I really believe I'm going to do more than pay lip service to these things. Right. That, you know, we could unpack that on a whole nother hour, be on all kinds of where we are,

have been in our own society now that, you know, one thing said, can you race a legitimize an entire person? You know, I try to tell our kids that, you know, I forgot who told me this, but I heard it, you may know, maybe a quote from somebody that you know, but if someone tells an untruth instead of calling them a liar, so you know that, that you told a lie.

That was a lie. And not throwing the whole blanket over someone's one foible and saying, oh, with that defines all of who you are and have ever been, therefore you are percent of non-grata illegitimized going forward. Sure. No, that's definitely true. And I mean, look, in what I write about,

Senaqa is the most fascinating example of this. You have this beautiful Stoic philosopher who writes some of the most profound philosophy writings about goodness and ethics and truth and courage. And then he works for Nero, you know? And so it's this, is he a hypocrite? Did he not mean it? Or is it actually really hard to live up to this stuff

and that we're all, he has some lines, he's like, we're all wicked people living in a wicked world. And I think that that's true. It's like we, and to me, that's the hardest part about the Trump thing. And it is the way that he has managed to in fact and manipulate and lead people astray from their inherent goodness.

Like, I think there's bad people who are, you know, jumping on the Trump and wagon cause they're bad people, but I think the sad part is the good, good people who are believing things that I know are contrary to their values. You know, I've heard from quite a few different people independently, one, my pastor, a few other people,

saying that they've had people come to them and all these people are in places of independently won my pastor and a few other people, saying that they've had people come to them. And all these people are in places of sort of leadership where people come to them and share what's unsettling to them. And in three different instances in the last two weeks, these three people have said to me independently, how a lot of people come to me going, they're feeling lost because they jump to the independently. How a lot of people coming to me go and they're feeling lost because they jump to the extreme. Yeah, they're feeling lost.

And I understand this time of even COVID and it's gone on before this, but of non-identity and we don't know our purpose, what do you do? You want to latch on to something. Well, you're latching onto these two extremes that we could call them, I think it's fair to call them political right now, for an identity, for a sense of purpose, for a mirror to go, oh, okay, there I am. I have

something to understand to go after. But I think there's a lot, what I'm hearing, it's I've heard that a lot of people are getting buyers remorse on both sides for going, oh, I leaked to that. And now I regret it because I actually don't feel any more true to myself over here either. I didn't even know what I was for. I just came over here yelling at what I was think I was against. I was thinking about this the other day, a friend of mine, I would say he got infected, not with coronavirus, but with like some conspiratorial nonsense, you know. conspiratorial nonsense, you know? And it's not that it's just believing something that's not true, it's that if you extrapolate out what he's saying, it's a heinous, horrible,

like reckless and dangerous thing that he's saying, right? And I think a lot of people have been on guard about not getting the literal virus and they've been infected by the figurative virus, either the virus of fear, or the virus of conspiracies, or just the virus of indifference and selfishness, which, that's to me, almost more danger. I'd rather get COVID than then go,

oh, a bunch of these people are going to die anyway. Like, you know what I mean? If you told me much of those is a worse infection, I think the callous indifference to the death of a quarter million people is much worse than a respiratory illness, even if the latter one kills you. Yeah. Well, there you go back to the individual and the collective. I mean, we don't do anything unless it's personal.

Right. And that number on Cover Time Magazine, this is 200,000 lives dead. Well, why time magazine waits, right? 200 because 200 maybe enough to make you go, whoa, but 150 wasn't enough. Right. But with 250 with 300,000 being a different reaction than 200,000, maybe not. Right. Because I don't know. I don't know, I don't know them. They're not personal to me. It didn't trespass on my property. So one of those numbers, even though in between,

if I don't feel any different, about 200,000 or 300,000, but there's 100,000 more people that die because. Right. Totally. No, it's certainly, you know, Marcus really lived in the plague, what they call the Antonine plague. And he had this quote, he said,

a plague can take your life, but it can only harm you if it destroys your character. And I think that's culturally where we are right now. On both sides of the spectrum, there's just, there's just a lack of character. And to me, character is made up of compassion and competence and principles and all those things. It's rough, man. Yes, it is. What do you see? Where are we in five years?

I mean, I'd love, I'd love this, I'd love for this to be a detour, you know, aberration. And I think we as a society should hopefully be at a place where we can just not pretend that this never happened, but we can give ourselves a do over. Like I'm hoping, you know, the results of the election are such that people kind of wake up and this was like a bad dream or a binge or something. And now we're like, okay, let's rebuild.

Let's go back to where we were. Right. But I do think it's made people, particularly my generation, and maybe this is the one upshot of it, is upside of it, is that people are realizing like, oh, we just can't wait for someone else to do this for us. We have to be involved. And have to like I think you know When you look at those events of the White House and it's like everyone on both sides is like 87 years old

You're like what's where the people who are my age right right right right? I've been noticing that recently too. I think we got there both 77 and 74 the two two men running for president Yeah, and that caught that caught me last night. I just didn't, it just caught me. I was like, that does sound and seem old and maybe out of touch. And at what point, you know,

because there is something to gaining wisdom and something with it. Absolutely. Keeping it even keel along the way and not like I said, we've been talking about disassociated or illegitimizing what you don't agree with and understanding that again, both are true. This is where living in more of a paradox life is much more of a paradox in the contradiction. But at the same time, you know, we can't have the youth

to say who have a tendency to go, well, I'm expert because I say I'm one, right? You know, we can't have that either, but it takes, you know, that's why that's why that's the value of hierarchy is that you work your way up to and you get educated and you learn and you test yourself amongst the masses and, you know, you don't get it all right, but you go through trial by fire and you stay with it. And hopefully you evolve. But yeah, what is that, when I saw 7774 that did seem like high numbers? You know, and I think the leader of the House and the leader of the Senate are both almost 80.

It's crazy. It can't possibly be the best, it can't possibly be the most qualified best people for what are insanely difficult, stressful, exhausting jobs. Well, what are the years where our most formative years where we actually become? For me, it was 15 to 25, 13 to 25. Yeah. Whether it's, if there's certain songs

in the late 80s, I hear, I'm back. It's back. There's a reason, you know, they play those certain songs on cruise ships because they know exactly the age of the people on cruise ship. And you want to make them feel young again. So if you go back and go, what is everyone, what was the decade for everybody in any position

of power where that was their most formative years? That's usually, I'm betting, is where they're sort of speaking from, or their opinions are coming from. How much to people evolve and change over that time, I'm not sure. What were your most formative years? Where? Yeah, I think they're those years. So I dropped out of college on his 20, and that's when I sort of, my life changed very dramatic. I sort of like yours, where you like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I want a nice mix of experience, but you also want a freshness,

and like you look at a Kennedy or something. Kennedy was like our youngest president, but he also fought in a war and he'd overcome sickness and loss and he served in slightly other, lower offices. I think we need a mix of that. I don't think you want these people who are, I mean, look, I'm, I'm, I already voted for Biden, but I'm 47 years of government service to then be in the head of things is probably right, you know, it didn't insider, so you know how the system works, and a little bit of outsider outlawness, so you're not wedded to the system. Yeah. There's an African proverb about that says, no man is in a position to, to lead until, until he or she has raised children through

adolescence. Okay, sure. And talk, formative, talking about which, which I think you have a quoted on Trump. That's when he realized the lying is pathological. It can't be helped, which is to say it makes a person unfit to lead. And a lot of your letter to your dad was about dad. This is, it goes directly against what you taught me growing up. Sure. So it's maybe a good reminder, you know, maybe that's what we need to lean into as far as water character, which is a word that's come up here. What do we want from our leaders? Well, who's been good

fathers and good mothers? That's a great point. No, and there's that there's this expression, sort of character, is fate. I think that's the other thing is sure. Age matters, energy matters, experience matters. But at the end of the day, like who they are, the traits that animate them as a person are assured they're destiny as a leader. And I think that's really where Trump has struggled is all of his flaws manifested themselves into the worst crisis now in American history. And you could say who could have seen this coming. But like the ancients would have said, you know, anyone could have seen this coming.

It's almost Shakespearean. Right. Yeah. Indeed. Oh, dude, this is so good. I can't believe this is this is the weird quirk of our time, which is that we met like six months ago. And we haven't been able to actually see each other in person and who knows when that'll happen. Right. And hey, I want to thank you for, you know, when I started coming out with this book, you and I have mutual friend that, you know, there's many other stories about how we kind of came together here. But it was natural, but you also have been so open, honest, and even forthright about going, hey, this is your first time going to the book. Make sure you're doing this or this or this or this

and you kind of give me a little guard rails direction and structure through going with this. It'd been really, really a help. My pleasure. No, it was an honor and you'll know what? I mean, I don't know when this will come out, but you'll know day after tomorrow, you'll get the news. Unlike Hollywood, you got to wait three, four days before the box office receipts come in.

Well, we'll see. It's been fun. I appreciate it, man. Appreciate it, Ryan. Have a good one. All right, see you. Bye. If you're liking this podcast, we would love for you to subscribe. Please leave us a review on iTunes or any of your favorite podcast listening apps. It really helps and tell a friend.

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