The Daily Stoic - MMA Legend Frank Shamrock On Conquering The Ego and Developing Honor

Episode Date: May 13, 2023

Ryan speaks with Frank Shamrock about his memoir Uncaged: My Life as a Champion MMA Fighter, the convergence between the Stoic virtues and the tenets of the Warrior Code, managing his ego when he was considered the greatest fighter on the planet, how his rough upbringing shaped his unconventional life, the mutual respect that they have for each other’s work, and more.Frank Shamrock is a former professional mixed martial artist and a pioneer of the sport. He was the first to hold the UFC Middleweight Championship and retired a four-time defending undefeated champion ranked the No. 1 Pound-for-Pound fighter in the world. He was named "Fighter of the Decade" for the 1990s by the Wrestling Observer, "Best Full Contact Fighter" by Black Belt magazine (1998), and three time "Fighter of the Year" by Full Contact Fighter Magazine. Frank spent much of his young life in the foster care system, often enduring abuse and neglect, until he was officially adopted and mentored by his father figure Bob Shamrock at the age of 21. Since his retirement from MMA in 2010, Frank has worked as a coach, color commentator, actor, writer, and motivational speaker. His work can be found on his website: frankshamrock.com.📚 To read more on the philosophy and mindset of MMA, check out Sam Sheridan’s books at The Painted Porch.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stokes. Something to help you live up to those four Stoke virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives

and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. Many, many, many, many years ago, I read a book called A Fighter's Heart by Sam Sheridan. Then he wrote another book called A Fighter's Mind. Both are very good. I believe I carry one

of them here at the Painted porch. I think one of the best books I've ever read about the mindset of what it takes to be a champion, not just in sports, but in like a brutal combat sport. I read it when I was training in Jiu-Jitsu right around the time I was riding the obstacle as the way. And one of the characters that I found most interesting in the book was the Sky Frank Shamrock who I'd actually missed.

I watched UFC stuff, mixed martial arts every once in a while, but I'd actually missed because he was sort of one of the earliest MMA champions. But he was just this fascinating character in the book. I read the interview with him and then I went and I read his memoir, Uncaged My Life as a Champion MMA fighter. And then as I was sitting down and writing, you go as the enemy, the things that I'd heard from Frank Shamrock in that book, in those books came pouring back and he ended up being in one of my favorite chapters in that book, the chapter about being and

staying a student, finding a mentor, a practicing under someone, but then also training against and with someone and then paying that forward. All things I've very much experienced in my life. And it was a cool little part of the book. And it wasn't until many, many years later that I was on Instagram. And I noticed that Frank Shamrock was following me. And I said, what?

No way. How cool is that this person who, you know, obviously I knew was a real person, but I'd interacted with primarily as material in my book is now aware of my work. Like how cool is that? We ended up chatting and I asked him if you wanted to be on the podcast sometime and it turned out he was swinging through Austin for South by Southwest. and I said, Hey, do you want to come in and do an in studio interview, which, which he did. And it was just an awesome experience.

I really enjoyed it. I'm appreciative of him coming out. And we had an amazing conversation. He has a fascinating life story. He was brought up in a broken family, it's early life at violence and poverty and trouble in it, came award of the state of California, a prison inmate by 18, just a couple years later, he was a world famous champion. It was the first UFC middleweight champion, he retired the first time,

totally undefeated, and he fought for almost 16 years, he was undefeated for 10 of those, and while he's no longer fighting himself, he's continuing that plus minus equal framework that I talked about in the ego as the enemy. And it was really cool for him to stop by the studio and tell me all about it. And he told me a story. You're going to have to stay to the end of this interview. He told me a crazy story of somebody who heard about him through one of my books, which absolutely blew my mind. So I'll leave that for you. You go to Frank Shamrock.com. You can follow him on

Instagram at Frank Shamrock. You can check out his book Uncaged My Life as a Champion, MMA Fighter. You can watch all his fights on YouTube and enjoy this interview with the one and only champion and perpetual student and teacher, Frank Shamrock. It's funny, I talked to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading. They're reading more than ever and I go, let me guess, you listen audio books, don't you?

And it's true. And almost invariably, they listen to them on Audible. And that's because Audible offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs. And of course, ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio read by me for the most part. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You'll always find the best of what you love, or something new to discover, and as an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases.

You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out Stillness is the key, the daily dad I just recorded so that's up on Audible now coming up on the 10-year anniversary of the obstacle is the way audiobooks so all those are available and new members can try Audible for free for 30 days visit audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500 that's audible.com slash daily stoke or text daily stoke to 500-500. Life can get you down. I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something.

Obviously, I use my journal. Obviously, I turn to stosism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Toxbase makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient.

It's affordable. By doing everything online, Toxbase makes getting the help you want easy and affordable. So why wait? And Toxbase can help with any specific challenge you might be facing. That's why it's the number one online therapy platform with license therapists and over 40 specialties. It's secure and private and in network with most major insurers as a listener of this podcast you can get 80 bucks off your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com slash stoic to match with a license therapist today go to Talkspace.com slash stoic to get 80 bucks off your first month and show your support for the Daily Stove. That's talkspace.com slash Stoic.

So when do you go home? How long are you going to go home at eight o'clock tomorrow night? Tomorrow, all right. You like you having a good time? Yeah, it's the most. I mean, yeah. I just run around do whatever I want and see all the cool stuff when that's that's kind of nice.

Usually I'm working. So it is weird. I noticed like you can get used to, this is a very first world problem. It actually sounds a little, you take school, which is where I want to start. But you get used to being like special. Because like you're like, you're always invited, you're always talking, you know,

maybe you're representing a company, and then you're just like, this is how it's supposed to be. And then you go and you're just like a regular person and you're like, oh yeah, this is how life actually is. There's just nobody cares. You're just one of a billion. And you need that special list. Yeah, yeah, there's not like,

like there's not like a book that has your bio in it and your photo. Oh my gosh, yeah. I'm enjoying it though, because one of the things I used to do back in the early fighting days, when I, when I when I when I've sport was just starting and I was unsure I was like this seems a little sketchy. Um, I used to go to fights and I would sit in the audience like a regular regular person like, you know, second level,

you know, way in the back and I'd sit next to you know, some old grandma and I would communicate with her and I would have the experience she was having and when I did that enough and I would have the experience she was having. And when I did that enough times, I went, this sport is going to be very successful. Right. You're like, I think we're on a list. Yeah. Like you just get used to like, like you show up at a family. Yeah.

Align is not for me. Yeah. I don't. And you really, that could, I think that's not totally what drives, you know, famous or powerful people nuts, but it is disorienting. It's confusing, yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's not good for the soul to get special treatment

everywhere you go. Well, I don't mind it. Well, of course, you don't mind it. And because I came from a world I never had in New York. I came from a place of waiting in lines. So yeah, I don't mind it. And I do the trade-offs for it. And I expect it, I should say, not to be in the state of life. But I don't go. The reason I haven't come to South by Southwest is like, what? There's

no, there's not a special place for me to relax. that sounds tiring and not fun. Well, the Stokes say there's such a thing that's a preferred indifferent. So that we should be indifferent to like, I train whether it's hot or cold, right? I train whether I'm credit for it or not credit for it. I do the work either way, but it's certainly better to get the special treatment

than the regular treatment. You want to get to a place where it's nice to have. If you can afford it, I don't think there's anything morally upstanding about flying coach if you have the $200 for the upgrade. right? But you shouldn't be, you shouldn't get so used to it that you, so the last minute thing, first class is full, and you're like, what the fuck is this? You know, like, you're miserable. You gotta, like, I like that I'm in a place where this is fair, bougie slash Reagan,

but it's like, like, if Southwest gets home faster than first class on another airline, I like that I'm in a place where this is fair. Boozy slash regular, but it's like, like, if Southwest gets home faster than first class on another airline, I'm not like, well, I gotta have special treat, you know? Like, you just, you take it, you want to be able, you want it, I think that's the, it's nice to have the perks, but you can't be dependent on the perks,

or entitled to the perks. You shouldn't be, or you become an asshole. Yeah. That's just, that works. Exactly. Well, I think that must have been interesting for you, as I was thinking about, like obviously, ego and hubris is the oldest story in the history of fighting,

right? The hungry underdog beats the overconfident champion, right? And so you gotta stay hungry, you gotta stay aware, but how do you, you gotta stay humble, but how do you stay humble when you're 16 and no? How do you stay humble when you're literally ranked in a round one of the left? Yeah, it's challenging.

It's very challenging. I was very lucky that I got exposed to the martial arts culture. When I came into fighting, there wasn't a martial arts culture, it was very challenging. I was very lucky that I got exposed to the martial arts culture. When I came into fighting, there wasn't a martial arts culture, it was a fighting culture. Like a boxing culture? Right.

Boxing, yeah, kind of like boxing, less more street fighting, and just there just wasn't a fabric of culture. Yeah, so when I started trying to make money in the sport, because it was no money, I started teaching martial arts and interacting with all the martial artists. Then I found their culture.

Yeah. And that had this fabric of honor, respect, discipline, humility, like service, teaching, and it had all the principles that I live by now. The, you know, my warriors code is from all of those principles. So I took those principles into fighting. And that's what really contributed to my success, my ability to control my ego, because, I mean, yeah, my first TV show, I thought Chuck Norris on CBS, prime time, you know, and was hanging out with Chuck,

because I was the greatest fighter on the planet. But, you know, through, for me, it was keeping in touch with martial arts, continuing to teach, continuing to serve. I mean, I can't tell you how many battered women's police training programs have written with the knowledge that I have because it was the right thing to do. But yeah, it's tough. I mean, I can tell you where it got me when I fought a Kangli because I knew Kangli for years and years and we trained together and I knew all of his skill set.

And I was also the spokesman for Strike Force, which we had a deal with CBS. Everything was going, you know, we were driving it in the right situation. I knew I could be come. Hands down without thought, question like, and so I went, you know what's more important to me? An amazing show that moves my league on the network television and beating my competitor

and doing this great story or dealing with the mechanics of the fight. And so I chose the plan A, which was to throw this amazing and even as it started, like I didn't believe it would happen. My coach told me, he more he's Smith told me, he goes, you block your, he goes, you can't block like that. I go, what do you think about him?

Yeah. He goes, someone's gonna break your arm. And this was what I said. This is my moment of hubris. I'll share it with the world. Yeah. I said, nobody's gonna break my fucking arm. And he just went, okay.

And we go right back to training. In the fight, he breaks my arm. Yeah. And that, I we went back to training in the fight. He breaks my head. And I just went, huh, that was really bad. I was reading about, I was reading about Floyd Patterson. And he was saying when he fought Ingmar for the first time, he was like, I got in the ring and I wasn't afraid. And he's like, I've lost. He's like, you have to be afraid.

Yeah. And he had deep fears. Like, he was, I mean, costumes, like, he had all kinds of stuff. You know, yeah, but the fear was the sign that you were on edge that you were taking seriously, that you knew it was a life or death thing, that it could go either way. And if you're too comfortable, that's probably not confidence. That's probably ego. Yeah, definitely. I was always afraid in my fights. I was terrified. Yeah, because it's violent and dangerous.

And I'm trying to kill people. I'm not sure what everyone else is doing. I'm literally trying to take people's lives with my hands. Is there a difference between confidence and ego? Yeah, totally. What's the difference? Sssh. Sssh.

Ego is not real. It's a fake. It's all BS. It's literally just BS. Someone, you've made it up. Yeah, because of other reinforcement. It's not actually real. Right.

Confidence is earned. Confidence is earned. Confidence is earned. Confidence is work. Confidence is, I am confident that I could teach you martial arts and you'd be the greatest martial artist your body can handle because I know for a fact what I know. And that's confidence. I talk about martial arts. They're all facts.

Ego is not a fact. It's just thoughts and ideas. Right, it's like if you've done something many, many times, you're not confident how exactly it will go or how long it will take, but you have confidence that you can do it again. Absolutely. That's real.

Yeah, science. The rest of it is, you know, if someone tells me I'm handsome every day for 10 years, I'm gonna believe I'm handsome. And then I look in the mirror and I go, oh man, I'm handsome every day for 10 years, I'm gonna believe I'm handsome. And then I look in the mirror and I go, oh man, I'm not handsome. But it was input, my brain believed it, it is true. But yeah, that's why fighting to me

is the greatest human experiment because it is the truth. There's not much room for lying. You get right to the truth. And you bear your soul and you literally gut it out with another human being. And at the end of that, both people have changed because you both face these fears

that are extraordinary, both committed to trying to kill each other. And then now we're here. Yeah, I think I was thinking about this once I was saying, like, I don't believe in myself, I have evidence. Yeah. Right? Because, like, ego is the, of course I can do it.

I'm amazing. Look at me. And I've done hardship before. I don't quit. Like, I ask questions. I learn, you know, you want that. Yeah, that's real. Yeah, that's real. Yeah, that's real.

And that was my biggest challenge in going through this sport because when I started, nobody knew what was going on. Nobody knew the technique. Like people just didn't know. Sure. We didn't have the knowledge. And I'm, you know, a nerd,

so I'm running around asking for the knowledge and getting my ask kit because you don't ask in that culture. You don't ask questions. You do what you're told. That's right. I'm running and beating up, go, I don't understand. Why does this keep happening? Hold on, I got one more question. But it was through that process where I went, I began to realize these people, they're not being, they're not, they don't know. And someone's got to go find it. data is data and one plus one is two

Let's line them up and see what the results are and then right ego is like I know everything confidence is like I feel good enough to ask yeah, right like actually you know when they go there's no dumb questions Yeah, you actually do need the confidence to be like you need to look guys. I gotta be honest I have no idea what the fuck my mind came from fear. Yeah. I was so afraid that I was gonna get hurt or beat up that I just kept asking questions because it seemed logical. And they're gonna get mad at me and they're gonna be, I'd be like, I don't know, I'm not okay,

but I'm just, I got one more question, buddy. Because we go over the safety procedures for the parachute one more time. Two more time, So much time please. Oh my god, it's so funny. Yeah, when I started, I didn't even know the rules. I'd never seen it. I'm in prison.

I didn't know what's going on. So I didn't even know you could tap. I didn't know anything. No understanding. And as I got the knowledge, it just didn't make sense. You know, no one really knew. Sure. And that journey in and of itself was so hard for me to,

because people had their egos. Oh, I'm a master. Well, of course I know. Well, let me show you my way. I'm like, okay, well, what about biomechanics? What about this? What about this need I have? These guys have generally hurt me. Right.

So I was really interested in human experience to go through that. Ego, major blocker for me getting knowledge until I just got so dang good that everyone was like, we better tell them because he's gonna, he's not stomping. Yeah, there's a line from Epic Titus, one of the Stokes, he says,

remember it's impossible to learn that what you think you already know. And if you think you know everything, you're kind of right, you know? Like, you're a master. Because you cannot learn anything else. It's like, do you know this end story about the two cups? Yeah.

They sit down to tea and he pours it and pours and it starts to overfill. And he says, yes, this is what happens when the cup is full. But if you go in as the empty vessel, you're open, you're vulnerable, you're willing to ask, you are aware of what you don't know. It's a lot more room. Yeah, and it's super powerful. Yes. What I realized going back is,

I was just on this honest journey. And I had these principles that we all lived by. So it was accepted. Everybody was into it. Yeah. And then once, like I said, once they got over the, you know, because they showed me I'd do it,

I'd have more questions. They would get to the mechanics, the science, and the, and it would start to fall apart. Yeah. And so I'd ask more questions and I could see the change. And they would struggle with this. I'm the master, I know it, you know, but these questions are unanswerable.

And so I would be a kind human and go, well, maybe this. And what about over here? And well, that's how it goes though. There's a physicist, his name is John Wheeler. He was the guy that invented the hydrogen mom. And he had this brilliant metaphor. He says, as the island of knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of ignorance.

So as you learn, right? So it's like, if I say here's how you do this move, you're like, okay, I got it. And then you try to do the move, you're learning all the things that weren't, you're learning all the things that I didn't tell you yet, the nuances will actually you can go this way. This way this way like so as you do it and as you put it into practice and you you actually interact or engage with the material. Or you advance in your career your chosen line you realize there's all this other stuff and that's why questions be get more questions which be get more questions, which should be get more questions. Yeah. So, weirdly, you should be asking more questions

the more you know. You should endless questions. Yeah. I mean, I just go right in this, in truth. This is what I do. Because I, you know, leadership coaching, I do privately incorporate. I just show up and ask people questions.

Yeah. I don't do anything else. I have no skills. And you're an expert. And I'm literally, and I just go on asking the questions. Yeah. Well, what's going on with this? And after after you know, 30, 40 minutes of asking questions,

I know exactly what's going on with the culture, the structure, the mechanics, who's unhappy. And I'm like, all right. And it's just fascinating to me. Because it's the same in every industry. Like I go from industry to industry and it's the exact same process. It's exactly the same problem.

It's been fascinating to me in previous to last few years. I did it just privately. My friends, my world, you know, my people I love, you know, I gave them this knowledge and I really, you know, saw the impact and the results in their lives. Yeah. And now that I'm kind of bringing it out in the public, I just see the problems are bigger.

I'm like, oh my God. We know what's funny about that is there's nothing in the public, I just see the problems are bigger. I'm like, oh my God. We know what's funny about that is there's nothing you're bringing from the outside that the CEO or the management team or the board, they couldn't have asked. Right. It's that they thought they already knew. Yeah. So no one made a change.

Yeah, and so they do not have it. Yeah, exactly. It's ridiculous. It's like that Toyota thing where it's like nine whys or eight whys. If you ask why enough times, eventually you get to some core fundamental issue that is the root of all the other things. But it's when you take things for granted, when you make assumptions, when you think that you know, everything stays static. Yeah.

My biggest lesson, because I turned 50 in December. So technically my life is half over. And I'm in the, you know, I'm in the third phase. And I learned that I didn't really listen to people. All right, listen, but I was listening with another ear. Yeah, I was listening with my own mind. And it took me 50 years to really get through that. It's 50, all of a sudden I realize if I just listen to people and let them talk long enough, they will tell me the truth about themselves. And that has been the most powerful lesson in my first 50 years.

So I literally just travel around. Yeah, you do. I was going over here. It's like, what's that guy do? And yeah, then, and 30 minutes later, I'll know everything and their hopes, their dreams, their desires, what they do, what their thing is, what makes them unhappy.

And it's fascinating to me. Yeah. Because I just wandered around it. Hey, what's going on with you? And they look at me and they're like, this guy looks weird. And he seems nice. And I think I'll have a conversation with him.

And I do it in business. When I do leadership stuff, I wander in just like this and I ask a bunch of silly questions. But they're designed to get people to talk. Because people want to talk, people want to share, people want to communicate well. And if you let them talk in a safe, comfortable area, they'll literally tell you the truth about themselves.

Yeah, it's like, I find this like, when I ask for directions, I'm like, hey, how do we get to this place, right? Cause you're so used to doing it on your phone. Yeah. And then someone's like, okay, so you go up here, you go to the end of the hallway, then you take a ride and then when you get, and I'm like, yeah, definitely stop listening

like halfway through. And I almost assuredly do that in other parts of my life. I'm telling myself, I'm asking questions, telling myself I'm listening, but I'm only listening for what I want to hear, or I'm cutting myself short because it's like, I'm only going to get half of this. And what you hear when you really listen is something very different than when you're half listening. Yeah, it's really, really powerful. And I didn't know I was half listening. I just so much going on and it's so much stuff in my life. And until I took care of those things

and kind of got, you know, in another phase, got to be out of fighting, that's when I was really able to hear people. Like listen, and I had time for it, I had a comfort for it, I had empathy for it. And it's just fascinating. Like it's just, I mean, I just wander around. That's the best, that's the best. That's what a philosopher does. It's a sacrificial disease it's just, I mean, I just wander around. That's the best.

That's the best. That's what a philosopher does. It's a sacrificial deal. That's crazy wandering, dude. Yeah. And then what ends up happening is, you know, I mean, I met a woman on a plane, a man in black wood, 10 years ago, and same thing.

I've seen her and she has this amazing energy. And I sit in that conversation and she tells me her story. Yeah. And I go, man, it's super powerful. I said, what do you do on this plane? She goes, I'm a stewardess. I go, now you should be out telling your story.

You think that story would help so many people. I go, let me tell you mine. I told her my story would cry on a plane. We both get off, we go our separate ways. I don't hear from her for 12 years, 10 years. She has been email last week. Hey, I'm reaching out like you told me since then I've written 12 books and this and that and I'm this and that I want to speak all

the stuff you told me I want to do the rest of it. And it's only because I sat next to her and listen to her. She told me her truth. I told her mine with this moment. And then you know, 10 years later on her journey, she's like, oh, that's right. That's what I'm supposed to be doing. She called me up. So we got her on a stage. She's speaking for our speaking group now. And it's so powerful. She was traffic, she was human traffic for years, like just said, what most horrible human experience and came out just traumatized. And it took her years and years and years to heal. And through her art, through her writings, or her sharing, her speaking, she's healing. And so yeah, I tell her

this 10 years, you're like, oh, my God, this is what I did. This is what worked's healing. And so yeah, I got to tell her this 10 years, you got to go, oh my God, this is what I did. This is what worked for me. And she kept going on that journey with I've never heard from her until just last week. Celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on Page Six or Du Moir or in court.

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like a culture with, first up violence, a, a culture with a strict hierarchy, you know, that it wouldn't be, that obviously Egos could be rife also that it could not be super, you know, welcoming or kind, what I've been fascinated with in that culture is like you walk into a jujitsu gym or a martial arts gym. It's like the better the person is, the nicer they are, the more open they are, the more curious they are, and those aren't the people to worry about. The people to worry about are the people who are like

six weeks ahead of you in the journey. Yeah, it's a new guy. A tyranny out. Yes. Yes. But the black belt the journey. Yeah, it's a new guy. The tyranny out. Yes. Yes. But the black belt will, no one will be gentler and nicer and more patient with you. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, that's the cloth. That's the value. That's what I found. And where I came from, street fighting, you know, crime, I was like, Oh, man, this is a horrible. And we're here, prison. And there's just lovely people, you know, with the same mission with an entirely different and better culture. And it changed my life. Like, it's why I always, you know, when I speak in institutions and when I coach people, first thing I do is we do the martial arts. Yeah.

Because it literally changed me as a human being. And then it gave me this global community. Sure. I asked them all questions. And you know, we figured it out together. Well, I can fly to Denmark tomorrow and the people are still there training and thinking talking and we still have that relationship and it's like that everywhere. And those people those communities, they all taught me what a good human is. There's almost something similar

to like the 12 step community in martial arts where it's like you could walk into any meeting, any gym, any ring anywhere in the world, language barrier, season, whatever, and plug into it pretty quickly, because they're all cycling through the same thing. It's different people in different stages of the journey, but it's this decentralized thing, all operating on the same operating system, the same culture that you were talking about.

And there's something really magical about that. There is, and this is what I discovered on that journey. There is shared knowledge. Yes. There's human shared knowledge that exists in this world. And I know this because I've traveled to countries where they don't speak my language. We cannot communicate in any way whatsoever. Yeah.

They are studying the same mechanics, the same structure. They got the same ideas or doing the same thing with just a different approach and a different mindset, a different, you know, sporting, understanding and fascinating to me, like just fascinating. My, my, all this just started Jiu-Jitsu not far from here. And he, he kind of like didn't really, socrates didn't really work, baseball didn't really work. And then he just like locked into this.

And I think it was, well, I discovered two things. One, like he does better if I'm outside. And if I sit, like the parents are sitting there. I found if I'm outside, he can't like look to me. And he has to plug into the system. He has to look up to the person who's in charge, but that like even though he knows just like, I think for soccer and baseball,

you didn't really understand what's happening. I think he's just as cool with this, but it's almost like a dog and a pack thing where you're just like, seems like everyone knows what they're doing. I'll just go with this flow. And there's something very primal and human about that. Yeah, and you're moving your body

and you're connecting, you're learning, you're flowing, and you're in this group and the group grows. And you understand some of the people in the group know more than you and you gravitate towards those people and you know if I just, like they're not more special or better or natural than me, but they just have more time. And if I just put in the time, I, it's, you know what it is, it's a very vivid reminder of the process. That different people are in different parts of the

process, but the process is independent and timeless and accessible to everyone. And I am where they once were. And if I just show up however many times a week, I will eventually get somewhere close to where they are. Yeah. That's a fucking life lesson. That's the right thing. Just doing it. And if you just show up, like I tell,

we have a lot of kids in our incarcerated youth programs that go in institutions that bring them out, they get themselves out rather. And they get just show up, like I tell, we have a lot of kids in our incarcerated youth programs, like go and institutions, they bring them out, they get themselves out rather, and they get the shit together. And then we pay for their martial arts education. And then we guide them in business and we try to do for them what someone did for me. And it's just, yeah, to see the change in them. Because I remember being a conbag. I remember how scared and alienating and odd it is

and the culture in there, which is just really terrible. And I remember trying to get into society and going, wow, I didn't fit before. Now I'm like, I'm so not fit in. I'm just jacked up. But being in that culture, just having people, just showing up, you know, and just watching someone teach and then go,

oh, that's right, you help other people. Oh, yeah, he's older so they're helping him. I'm like, oh, this is how you, this is how you do it. And so this culture goes in every one of my businesses. Every business I touch. If Google hires me, they're getting martial arts culture in leadership, because that's how it works. That's what's best for everybody in my opinion.

And then besides all the community stuff, at the end of the day, you're learning a valuable skill to protect yourself. Where else can you do that? Where else can you get all that? In one spot, it's crazy. Like, it's so good. Well, so tell me about that because that's my, that was one of my introductions to your work and your way of thinking, which was your plus minus E. And it came from the Marshall Arts class.

Okay. Just so you know, watch and sit back and go and work creating a system here. Yeah. He's helping him. And we're all growing this. So that's where the original idea popped into my head. So what is plus minus equal mean? Plus minus equal is my module for accomplishing anything.

So for me, I apply it to anything I want to accomplish. So I'm gonna make a movie. I find my plus. So I go find someone who's accomplished it, who has the... Someone better than you. Someone better than me. Someone a plus.

I like to shoot high. So I go for, someone great. Someone great. Yeah. Even if it's two steps above you, still, it's where you want to go. So for me, I go, I find my plus. I try to find the biggest possible.

My mentor, my knowledge, I know they have done it and they'll make it easier for me to do it. And I just need to present myself and get my mentor, my plus to accept it. And that comes with humility, effort, socialization, communication, and being of value. When the student is ready to teach your peers. Of course they all do. And then, so you're meant your plus arguably the most important in the beginning. You're equal as your competitor, your person who you work with, you have your business

cross town who ever is doing what you're doing, you need to know what they're doing. Because this is your sparring partner, this is your competitor. Or the gym next door, or the guy you're gonna fight in three weeks, what's he doing? If he's your equal, you're all sharing the same knowledge and working in the same system, you need to know what those guys are doing. You're a class of comedians, you're a class of whatever.

The people, yeah. And when I first came up, I didn't know about that. I was adversarial to everybody, because I'm a fighter to kill me. I'll stress down. I learned to be, to get with my equals and to figure out our common ground and to communicate. So they give me knowledge. Oh, I'm gonna ask a question. They'll give it to me because I'm not hating on them. And so plus equal and then the minus to me is the most important as this machine grows because the minus is the person you give that knowledge to.

Paying it forward. Paying it forward. So let's see, I made a movie. I found a great movie director and he took Menor's Wing. Yeah. And I found out what all my movies are doing in that space and how to sell it, what's going on? I talked to a bunch of guys, so it did it.

And then I found a young movie producer who really wanted to do what I was doing, who believed in the dream. And he did most of the work while we built this thing out. At the end, we accomplished it because I have my plus equal and a minus. And the symmetry is your plus to your plus, you are the minus. Yes. And someone's a plus to him. Yes, someone's a plus to him.

Yes, someone's a plus to him. It just keeps going, because, you know, we age, and as we age, you know, the second half of your life, it's not about, you know, learning, earning, I'm in that giving phase. And so for me, it's like, how much can I give of this knowledge now, knowing soon, you know, I won't be able to give, like my machine's gonna expire.

Sure. You know, my brain's gonna slowly, you know, soften. And I won't have the same value to everybody. So this is my giving. And right now I wanna, I really wanna define this stuff to help as many people as possible. Sure. Cause I've seen the results.

Like firsthand, all these are experiments on me. Yeah. Well the irony too is that it's not totally selfless, the giving as a cynicism, we learn as we teach. And so you're actually the same with the peers, you're equals in articulating what you have learned, summarizing what you have learned, passing it along, seeing the mistakes

that someone else is making, you're actually also seeing yourself codifying the knowledge, clarifying the knowledge, reminding yourself of the knowledge, and it works as a real sort of virtuous cycle, I think. Yeah, and it just keeps growing. Yeah. So I'm a bunch of pluses to a bunch of people and a bunch of equals and a bunch of minuses. So it's just for me, it's like, anytime someone comes and I don't understand it, but they want to go somewhere.

I go, all right, well, it's pretty easy. Yeah. Let's find out who did it, who's doing it, and who wants to be doing it. And let's get those people together and get this thing moving. What I think always, always looking at it as though there is a plus above you is a way of keeping ego at bay. Because you're always there's always someone or something to be a student of. Yes, it has to be otherwise. If you know it all, then you're God, omnipresent,

universal energy. Certainly, certainly at the end of the road. Yeah, right. You know, like there's nothing else for you. You just evaporate. Yeah, it's only only a place to go is down. He's just turned into mystical air energy. It just dissipates into the molecules. So what are the virtues in your view of the warrior code? Like what are what are the tenants of that warrior code? It's the same as martial arts.

So on a respect and discipline. And then, you know, we go a little further because it's a human experience So I'm caring for this machine. Sure. It's of the utmost importance most of our illness is a man cause We're killing ourselves for no apparent reason Why aren't we caring for our machine? So one of our core ethos is we care for the machine properly Mm-hmm. Our mind is the computer to see it's a. It should be protected. It should be cared for. It needs its own care. That's part of our ethos. Care for the mind. You can't think big. You can't guide big. You can't dream big. You can't do big things when your mind's scramble. And when your

mind's unfocused, we have a bunch of tools for mind development and then in spirit. It's getting and then in spirit. It's getting, doing the human deed, that's good. Yes. And for the most amount of people, possible. Seems like the, do you know the four virtues of stoicism? The four virtues, the cardinal virtues. I know them. I have a, I have a brief, I'm on. But I, they, I feel like they overlap. I wonder what you think of them.

So it's courage, temperance or self discipline, justice and wisdom. You like those? Discipline, obvious one in fighting, right? If you're not doing the work, I think you're not all right. You're not strict with yourself. Yeah, of course.

Wisdom, of course, you said this is the most important weapon. Courage, I think, I thought it was interesting. You said you're always afraid in your fights. Maybe people think courage and fear are opposites, but actually without fear, there's no courage. Like if it's not a scary situation, you're just dumb. You just wandered in where you thought you're supposed to be there, right? That doesn't require any, that doesn't require, you have to be scared and then do it anyway. That is redefinition of courage.

And then ironically, the way to get rid of the fear is to do the thing so many times that you can come for a bullet with it. Like people aren't you afraid like talking in front of people, not anymore, but I mean, there's still always the edge because you know it can go bad. Like if you respect it, and you hold yourself to a standard that is not easily met, it's always a little intimidating because you know it's a reach to get there. But you're not so scared of the worst case scenario anymore because you're like, I bombed. I know, I know you survived. I bombed. I know I know you survive. You know?

Yeah, yeah, I so enjoy this coaching and other lifestyle. I'm like, hey, you bombed me. You're asking. Yeah, I was. But then you're like, what's wrong with you? For you, it's like no one is currently punching me in the face. This is pretty good. It's greatest life ever. Yeah. Just traveling around, joy it. You know, help people. It's so good. And then I think the problem with justice, when people hear the word justice,

they immediately think social justice, which is obviously important, they think the justice system, which is important. But I also think, and I think this is a big part of martial arts culture, I'd be curious to you, I think ethics, how honesty, how the personal code of conduct that you choose to follow, not the one that is enforced, not the one that the law says, personal code of conduct that you choose to follow.

Not the one that is enforced, not the one that the law says, but, you know, do you keep your word? Do you give people a shot? Do you kick people when they're down? You know, like what are the rules that you set for yourself that you follow? To me, that's that virtue of justice.

Yeah, we have a circular diagram, which is the circle of life inside this warrior's co-programmer that I created and it's a schematic for doing all of this. Okay. But at the center, there's a big circle called the secret life. And that's where all that stuff resides. And the goal is to get rid of that secret life. So it doesn't exist. Get all this stuff out because then you don't have to act that way, feel that way, treat people that way, have that energy.

But there goes to courage and fear and you know, we got to shrink down that secret life. I carried around this, you know, no, I never knew I was in prison. I was a fighter, you know, and all of a sudden, they're like, what, he was in prison? I never told anybody for a decade. Yeah. Because I was trying to be someone else. Like, that was my job was to grow this sport and be champion and that stuff didn't bode well in moving a new sport into, you know, regulation and getting back on television.

What do you think of the expression you're only as sick as your secrets? Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's the greatest. And it's true. I mean, I have lovely friends that I just love and they do bad things. And I go, man, what are you doing? But they have, it comes back. They don't feel good.

They have healthy shoes. They have relationship. It all comes back. And then I go, oh man, maybe not next time. I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's working. It doesn't seem like it's worth it. I know. It's not worth it.

It's just, yeah. But people are finding the human experience as I get older. It's just fascinating. You know, it's fascinating what, how we think, what we do with our minds, what we do with our bodies, like it's just fascinating to me. Yeah, Kato, one of the stoics, he said something like, if you do something hard for good, right,

the work disappears, but the good remains. Yeah, he says, but if you do something bad, the pleasure disappears, but the shame lingers. And I think that's pretty simple. And people go, yeah, of course, but then you look at their decisions or actions, and they violate that a lot. Cheating, performance enhancers, you know, well, the ref didn't see it. Hey, it's not technically against the rules. Is that how you want to live your life? Yeah. Yeah. That's, it's funny. Most people's secret life is quite big. Yes, it's yeah, that, it took me a long time to get where I am today, like get comfortable.

You know, I was in prison, I went to streets, I had all these horrible things happen to me, and then I was always just fighting to survive, fighting to not die, fighting to just get through my job, like living, just all these things. And so once I was able to reach a level where I didn't have those feelings, I was still all messed up.

I still had all the pain and just all these traumas in my body, physical, emotional, spiritual. You know, in the last 15 years I've just been trying to fix that. Like, you understand it, fix it, learn more. You know, figure out why I feel this way. And I finally feel peaceful.

Like, I feel at peace. I walk down the road and I go, two things. I feel good and I can kill every human being on this street. And it was really a second. That's confident. I go, hmm, I think I'll have a nice meal. That's how my brain works. What does honor mean as part of that culture?

Because I think for some people, some people that were immediately make sense, and then other people, it's low data, controversial, or it seems patriarchy goalers. And I don't even mean like, what is honor? Well, if my plus gives me knowledge, I will honor that. I will honor him and I will respect that knowledge and I will give it to somebody with great value because to me, him giving that to me is invaluable.

Why would he do that? Why would a human go, oh, here, take all my knowledge and go be successful. Who does that? So that exchange is very powerful. And for me, I'm honoring that person. Like, what? Moe your lawn? Absolutely.

Wash your car. Of course, whatever you need. You know, drive your kids to school. I'd love to. Because I know what it will do for me. And, and therefore I honored that. When I use, when I speak, when I, you know, use my words, I use them with honor.

I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm, these are the facts. You asked me a question? Huh? Question? Answer. I'm going to give you a factual, loving, kind, data-driven answer because I'm assuming you're looking for data.

And if not, then I'm going to try to figure out what you're really asking me and where it's coming from. And then I'll reply with that, but that's what honor does to me. When I, I won't teach somebody, my martial art, if I know they will use it incorrectly, because that would be dishonorable. I have said they would dishonor. They would dishonor.

Because they won't understand the value. So they would go, look at this, I go, let me break your arm, because they wouldn't have learned the value. But me as a teacher would have taught that value, or I would have never given the knowledge. So there's just this, that's where honor is for me. I won't lie to my student. My student won't lie to me. Mr. Shamrock, I can't afford these classes. Okay. Let's talk about that. Like let's not make up excuses, because that's honor, sir. I love what I'm doing, but this is it. Oh, great. Let's deal with that. That's honor, directness, communication, trust.

That's what that means to me. Yeah, it's like, you know, being a pro, being a man, being a leader, being a captain, we kind of have these expressions, some of them are gendered, some of them are specific domains or sports, but it's this idea of like, look, if you're gonna assume this role, there's responsibilities and obligations

that come along with that, and you have to take that seriously. And if you're not, then you're not worthy of that thing. No, no, I don't want to earn that. I think about that I have a little note by the side of my desk, because it's weird for me, like I didn't make any of this,

stoicism stuff up, right? This is an ancient tradition that I, because of my books and then because of social media, I'm in a position where I'm identified with it, right? And I've had the honor and privilege of being able to talk about it with millions of people. But I could just think, hey, there's a great, a great hustle I came up with. There's a great, this is great. Look how lucky I am or look how special I am. I actually have a little note by the side of my desk, it says, are you being a good steward of stillness?

So as I make decisions, how much is this gonna cost for this? You know, do I, do I wanna do this kind of thing, even though some people might like it and some people might hate it? Do I wanna take this stand? Do want to speak out about this or that? I have to think about not just what I want to do, not just what's good for me, but am I am I honoring as you said this thing that

is not yours. You possess only temporarily. And are you doing, are you doing, you being a good steward, are you treating it honorably? That's a, that's a really important thing. I think people have to, to come to turns. Because I think people think, you know, hey, it's not illegal. Hey, there's no gun in my head. So I'm just going to do whatever I want. And I think the upside of the freedom of American life is that you can pretty much do what you want and live how you want. But the obligation is, or the expectation is like, you have to decide there's certain things that you could do that you're not gonna do. Do you know who Victor Frankel is? He said that there should be a statue of liberty.

You come into America through New York Harbor or you fly over, you see the statue of liberty. That's one facet of what it means to be an American. You can do what you want. But he said there should be a statue of responsibility on the West Coast, right? And to me, honor is the middle between liberty and responsibility. You can, but should you? Yeah. Will you? That's that secret life. What do you do when? Yes.

When nobody's looking. Yes. That tells a lot about who you are and truly what you are. Yeah. You know, because you are what you, what you do. You are what you think. It is what it is. If you do bad things, with no one's looking, then technically, you kind of do bad things when no one's looking. One is that we were talking about being number one in the world, but you were, you were the best fighter pound for pound,

like on the planet. But there's something interesting, it's like you see that two ways, like you're like, I am that, or that is a spot that exists that a person gets to temporarily possess for a certain time, right? Like yes, you're a champion forever, yes, you get to say you were number one forever, but it's in the past tense, no one gets to keep it forever.

So how did you treat the thing that you knew someone else was gonna get after you, right? Did you honor the position or not? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's a good question. You know I'm not asking you exactly if you did. Yeah, yeah, I did And I didn't consciously do it. I just knew that I would learn more and deeper if I kept giving it away and protecting it. So the reason I had such growth is I started teaching and I started using all these mechanics.

And so I was at the cutting edge of literally technical development. I'd say, hey guys, bring your body, let's try this. Hey, what about this? Twist my arm and do this. So we were able to stay in front of all this development and knowledge. And that was the secret sauce. And then I understood its value, especially when I started getting the results I did. So I 100% honored that. And you know, like I mean, you know, when they bought, when the

for Titus bought the UFC, I was hired to go, you know, train them and, you know, teach them about martial arts because they were outside the culture. I went to autumn and they didn't know what martial arts was. Yeah. And so they had an entirely different culture and it didn't mesh. And I was like, oh, that's not, that's not how I want to hang out. I said different, you know, flavor of what's not martial arts. They didn't have any conception of what it took to do this and what it took for these people to survive and live and thrive and work together and get knowledge and so they didn't know I didn't care. And I was like, I don't want to be involved in that.

That's not my, that goes against everything that I stand for, everything. Wasn't that what's happening in golf right now? Yes, you know, like you're, if you're one of the best golfers in the world, should you leave the league that's existed for a hundred years that has all the best players in the best format and go basically play exhibition golf, be part of the golf Harlem Globetrotters, slash green or a sports washing for the Saudis, even though you'll get paid lots of money, or should you stick with the sport?

And I think, I think, if you are, your honor dictates, honor dictates what that, I wouldn't say honor makes that choice easy. It's not an easy choice. None of us have had to go, do I want a100 million or not? But I think we should give a lot of respect to the people who said, no, the sport, competition,

the purity of it, that's more important to me than sometimes more than $100 million. That's what was most important to me. Yeah. And that's where I got so, that's why I was able to keep getting successes and different areas. Because I believe I was 100%. The changes that made my life and the things that did for me were extraordinary.

And so I honored that. I valued that. I really believed in it. Yeah, still do. We were talking about Floyd Patterson earlier, that boxing writers, I forget who it was, said, he's a credit to his race, the human race. At a time when people were making real racial distinctions, and it's like, I think that's a good question.

Are you a credit to your profession? Are you a credit to where you come from? Are you a credit to your profession? Are you a credit to where you come from? Are you a credit to your industry? Are you a credit to your neighborhood? Whatever it is. Are you leaving it better than you found it? Are you treating it with respect? Are you doing it honorably? Or are you maximizing your gains? You know, maximizing your fans or fame or whatever. And that can be a hard choice sometimes it's an easy choice, but it's the choice that matters. It's the only choice that matters. I've been rich, famous, not famous, poor, lived on

the street, to the top bottom, you name it. And that's the only thing that matters. And I do all I don't I don't market what I do. You that's the only thing that matters. And I do all, I don't, I don't market what I do. You can't find what I do anywhere. But everybody finds me. Yeah. And everybody knows what happens when you hire me. Yeah. It just that works. Cause they go, Oh, Frank Shamrock, and they tell the story and what happened and what it did for them. And they go, Oh man, call this guy. So it's just that the fact that it's ultimately much better marketing than anything else. Because I only get people that are really on it

and that really want change and that are really looking to do something different and impact the world that have the same ethos. And I want those people, because those are the people that will 10x, 20, like they'll crush it in the universe. Yeah, and they find me. So it works out.

I'm gonna tell you a little story. Maybe you can relate to it. So, Mark's really loses his father as a young man. loses his grandfather and basically is sort of raised in orphan. And the emperor Hadrian sees something in him, but he sees that he's too young. Hadrian doesn't have an heir, but he sees that he's too young. Hadrian doesn't have an heir, but he sees that Marcus is too young. Obviously, you don't want to give someone too much power and access to early. So he sets up a guy named Antoninus Pius, who's a powerful politician, but kind of a regular guy. And he, we're told that he selects Antoninus Pius

because he sees when Antoninus doesn't know anyone's looking. He sees Antoninus helping his father-in-law, his elderly father-in-law, up a flight of stairs, just like a gesture of kindness when no one is looking. So Hadrian adopts Antoninus on the condition that he in turn adopts Marcus Aurelius. And the thinking was that Marcus would, or that Antoninus would rule for a couple years, right? Because what's life expectancy in ancient Rome around the turn of century? Instead, Antoninus

rule is for almost 20 years. And so Marcus, you know, could see this one of two ways. He could see this as this old old man is between me and my birthright or not birthright, but the, you know, what I was selected for or this is the ultimate plus minus situation, right? And he trains under Antoninus for the next 20 years. And if you've ever, if anyone's ever read Marx-Realist's Meditations, the first part of the book is all about his debts and gratitude. And there's no one that he thinks more than Antoninus, all the things that he learned from him.

You know, they could have been rivals, they could have fought it out. All he, you know, he learns how to listen to experts, he says he learns how to be disciplined, he learns how to, how to accept the gifts of fortune, but not need them like we're talking about, he says, he learns how to be disciplined, he learns how to how to accept the gifts of fortune, but not need them like we're talking about, you know, how to not put on errors, how to learn, all the things he learns from. And then so when Marcus, you know, does eventually become emperor, he's ready, right? And then maybe this maybe this fits in with the the minus or the equal. Do you know what Marcus does?

The first thing he does with absolute power. Well, he has a step brother, right? And he anoints his step brother, co-emperor. The first thing he does with absolute power, the thing that's supposed to corrupt absolutely every other king in history. You know, he names his brother, Coemper, and he writes in meditations, not just of his gratitude for Antoninus, but his gratitude for his brother, who a lot of people didn't really like, and he says,

I'm grateful that I had the step brother that I did whose character so dramatically improved my own. Nice. That's not a perfect analog to your story, but I feel like there's some broad strokes similarities. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's been, well, you know, my story, just random strangers all throughout my life have helped me.

Yeah. Like, just, hey, man, you know, a little messed up there. Let me give you some thoughts. I'm advised and some help. It's been the greatest 50 years ever. Honestly, I don't talk about this much, but in the early days of fighting, I knew I had to get out. It's too dangerous. Sport wasn't growing. It was actually shrinking. And so, you know, when I started my family and got everything going, I was looking at this thing and I was like, yeah, I'll probably die on this journey

because this is super hardcore and I could tell people didn't really know it was going on and it was unregulated. And so I took that step, you know, and I was like, all right, well, I'll come into it. You know, I'm all in. So when I was killed me and that'll be, you know, if they do, God bless them, they'll win. And then, you know, problem solved and then my... I'm glad in, so I'm gonna kill me, and that'll be, you know, if they do, God bless them, they'll win.

And then, you know, problem solved, and then my ex-plan was I had a million dollars with live insurance. And so I went in with this mindset every time, let's do this. And what I quickly realized is nobody else had the mindset or that backup. And so no one else was willing to go down that path with me. And it just, what that did to my mindset, to A, have a backup plan, because, hey, if I die, who's gonna take out my family? Sure, sure.

It's cared for. And then to have a real plan for what's happening happening. You know, that's where, to me, if you got your plans in place, and you got an ex-strategy, pretty much do anything. I was curious, because you had a rough childhood. But there were also moments of grace and generosity and people stepping up in that childhood. How has that shaped your life and your story?

Well, it's made everything. I left home when I was 11. I just lost my family and everything associated with it. So I didn't have any skills. Every experience and thing I'd ever experienced was in a book. I just read books. I was a nerd.

I was traumatized. I didn't interact well with people. I couldn't figure it out. And so I would just read. And then once I got out of that world, everything was just new. Everything was new. And it didn't, you know, I would commit crimes,

but I didn't hurt anybody, you know, and it said, maybe just move me around. I'd keep meeting people. But nine out of ten of those people would stop and go, oh, it's going on with you. And I'd be like, oh, I'm messed up. And I got all these issues. And then, well, let me help you.

And so as I got less and less messed up, and I got more and more in control of myself, they just more and more values came from those people. But all of them, random strangers, prison guards who were like, hey man, you know, you're smart, you're, you know, what are you doing here? Like what's wrong with you? Well, I'm an idiot and you're like,

well let me help you and give me knowledge. Only because I'm asking them questions and I'm like, I don't really wanna be here. I don't, I don't feel like I fit in. But yeah, the kindness of people, that's why I do what I do now in helping people and traveling around and just communicating truthfully with people because at this core, people are good.

And it's core people are kind. Every human interaction that I've had has been good. When there's kindness and love and people aren't afraid and nervous or intimidated or ego or a bunch of crap, there's always, hey, like I said, genuine human connection of love. And that inspires me. Like that is what keeps me going because that's my spirit. As people give me that and I go, ah, yes, this feels good. What did you learn from your parents

and your adopted parents about being a parent, being a leader, what to do, what not to do? I learned a lot from Bob Shamrock. And in... That's where your last name comes from. Yeah, the men who adopted me. You know, I was in his group home and I was 13 until I was 16 And then when I went to prison he adopted me, but yeah, he you know, he was he was good with boys

Yeah, he didn't teach me anything about girls. They tell me about boys. How to lead boys, you know, and then He was a great leader With great morals and ethics. So he didn't curse, he didn't drink, he didn't smoke, he didn't, you know, that's to be deeply religious. And so he just stood by some very important things. And that was it. Is that you become a young man?

This is what you do. Yeah. This is what you do. And then this is the result. And it was simple. One, two, three. Result. And so it's the first time I've ever had someone explain that to me and give me guidance and model it.

And model it and then do it. Yeah, everybody else was doing weird stuff and telling me, you know, it wasn't truthful representation of what I was being told to do. So this was the first person who showed me that and it was just, it made all the difference in the way. I was lost kid, I was struggling, really struggling. It sounds like he never gave up on you.

He never did. Even when I went to prison, I mean, I went to prison for three and a half years. He adopted you during or after? Yeah. When I got out, he adopted me. Yeah, he never left my side. And you know, just, what do you think that was?

Love. He, you know, he wanted to have a son. And he couldn't. And then, you know, when him and his wife separated, you know, their previous agreement was, we'll keep these kids, we'll help them, but, you know, we're not going to keep them keep them. We're just going to help them and we're going to send them on their way. And that will be our service. And that's what we do. It's good thing.

And then after his wife left, you know, I think it took, put a big hole in his heart. And so, but he had these two boys, can and I and and they, you, Ken and I, and we were the boys he always wanted. You never got to keep them. We had genetic, we had all the stuff that he wanted and looked for. He showed me love. No man has ever done that for me. No man has ever just been real kind to me and just really touched my heart. I was all in love with him. He was a great man.

And you feel like that's got to be part of the paying it forward for you. Oh, it drives it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because I know what it did for me. And I was just a dumb kid running around. And he went, oh, wait a minute. No, no, no. And I tried telling him some dumb story and like, and he went, oh, wait a minute. No, no, no, no. And I tried to tell him some dumb story and probably steal something.

He's like, no, stop. Uh-uh. This is how you become a man. And I was like, oh my God, this is what I'm looking for. This is what you need. That's what you get when you go to martial arts. I stand up, sir. Yeah. Then you go, oh, yeah. Yeah. That's how I present and that's how I move. And that's what I'm supposed to do. And I don't know. I didn't know any of that stuff. I grew up on the streets. My mom didn't teach me a whole lot. She was traumatized.

She was abused in all different ways. And she was just really shut down emotionally and in her ability to share love. That's me. That's such a fundamental part of Christianity people cause over. But this idea, if you've been blessed, be a blessing like you've been given a free gift, you must give freely. And pass it on or it's going to disappear.

Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed if you don't, if you don't give, then eventually it'll be taken from you. Did he believe in you as a fighter? Oh, no. Yeah. No. But I think that was love.

You know, he saw me because I was a really emotional. No, yeah, no, but I think that was love You know he saw me Because I was really emotional. I was traumatized. I mean my aunt found me hanging upside down and in the hallway closet when I was two years old In the back of my niece just crying in a closet alone hanging You know so I can only imagine the things that happened to me when I was a child. And so I could just never get control of my emotions and stuff. And I was always afraid and fearful. And, you know, Bob just, you know, he saw that.

He saw that. He saw it was traumatized. He saw it was scared. He saw it and he had experience. He'd done it before. And so he's like, oh yeah. Hey, man, line him up. Get over there.

Get, sir, yes, sir. Get him up. He knew what he was doing. He's like, get in line. And so he's like, oh yeah. Hey, man, line him up. Get over there. Get, sir. Yes, sir. Get him. Get him. He's like, get in line. And so I did. And the best thing is ever happening. But did he, do you think you were drawing on that love

and that support when you went to go do a crazy odds against you thing? Or, well, so so yeah so back to the um I knew Bob loved me and then I just didn't have the emotional capacity and stability at the time to love him the way he loved me. I have it now but now he's dead and I've missed the moment but I just didn't have it I couldn't I couldn't reciprocate it. I reciprocated in what he wanted me to be and, you know, doing whatever I could do that I knew made him happy and you know, filled my role as a son. But when I came to fighting, he saw me as that hurt little traumatized boy. And I didn't. So that was our first, you know, he's like, you can't do this.

I'm like, what, what are you talking about? And it was hard for me to stomach because he was the one who believed in me since the very beginning. And now he was coming to me. I was when I was fighting Tito. And he literally came and said, he's too big boy, he was gonna beat you up.

And I go, what? I'm the greatest fighter on the planet. But to have my dad tell me that was like, it was hard. Really, that was tough, you know. I think it's hard for parents because above all, you want your kids to survive. Right. You want them to live. But you want, you know what I mean?

You want them, you'd like them to be happy, but you definitely don't want them to be dead You know, and so there's a tension, right? Like they want to be the greatest ever at xy or z and you You want them to do what they want You don't want them to get hurt more than anything though, and so you I think it is something that kids have to realize is that your parents unconditional undying ceaseless love for you sometimes doesn't make them the best at giving you career advice. Right? You need a different plus. Someone who's done the thing that you're trying to do that cares about you, but also cares about the thing. You know, like when I dropped out of college to be a writer, my parents thought I was blowing up my entire life.

Other writers that I knew were like, you can definitely do this. It's all right, you can always go back to school. And you need that, you need that tension, right? And maybe as a parent, you have to understand your fundamental bias and go, hey, don't ask me on this one. You know, I'll support you, whatever you do.

But if you ask me if I think you should go and then I'll get the shippied out of you, I'm gonna say no. That a good idea. It's also why I don't want you to join the Marines. You know, there's attention there. Yeah, there's attention. And for martial arts classes and your son,

yeah, let him do his thing. Totally different. Martial arts, coach, coach. Let him arts classes and your son. Yeah. Let him do his thing. Totally different. Martial arts class. Let him go outside, talk on the phone, let him have his world. Yes. Because the ones that don't, it really impedes the children's ability to grow. Yes. Because they're connected over here and they're more connected here than here.

Yes. I wanted to become a whole thing. Tether to someone else in a different kind of energy and mastery that I don't have. If it was a writing class, we'd have a different relationship to do it or something. Do you know what I mean? It's like I actually want,

and I actually think he needs somebody else bossing him around. Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, no, it's so good for especially boys, because we don't get that data. Like we don't get, no one tells you how to become a man. Like nobody's like, all right, here,

this is, it's so confusing. Well, they tell you a bunch of shit that they, that, that, it's just about being a man that's nothing to do with being a man. Yeah, yeah. They regret it years later, because I was wrong, I'm sorry.

Yeah, I gave you all, wasn't in touch with my own emotions either. I'm sorry. I told you you bet it made you a little bit. You know, whatever. I'm sorry. Oh my god. It's okay.

I have to tell you my Tom Brady story. Okay. You haven't heard this one. No. And so, you don't, this is what you don't know about me. Okay. I don't watch sports. Okay.

I don't watch television. Okay. I don't really participate much in society. Except for I hang out with people I love and with those people I work and I do interact. I do all this crazy stuff with business. I'm deeply involved with people that I love. And so after your book came out, I was standing at LAX Airport and I was waiting across the street with my driver. This big tall white guy shows up next to me and he's got a driver too. And he looks to me and he says, oh, Mr. Shimra, I go, oh, oh, he, he goes,

he read, uh, read your, uh, article chapter in Ryan's book. And I want to do, uh, say it was great. I really, I think it was ego when he's really, really powerful stuff. And, you know, really touched me and did it and I go, oh, wow, man, thank powerful stuff. And you know, really touched me and did it and done. I go, oh wow, man, thank you. Like, you know, hey, I really appreciate that. So then we have this human moment. And I can see he's my equal in some way

because we're both here at the drivers and we're both in the thing. And both goats. Right. And so we're doing our thing. And then I say, hey, what do you do, man? You know, hey, this is really cool. What do you do? I play football. I go, oh, right on, man. I go, well, what do you do, man? You know, hey, this is really cool. What do you do? I play football.

I go, oh, right on, man. I go, well, how's it coming? He goes, he looks good. It makes some adjustments. And it's like, it's a kind of, you know, he's just down playing it. And I go, right on, man. I go, what's your name again?

He said, Tom, Tom Brady. I go, right on, Tom. I go, it's really nice to meet you, brother. And he's like, yeah, man, I'll see you around. So he goes this way. I go that way, getting in my car, call my wife. I said, hey, uh, do you know a guy named Tom Brady? She's like, bro, you're like, she's like, what do you do with your life? He's like, he's like the biggest star in football right now. I go, I just met him at the airport and she goes, no, no, he's married to

Jacelle. That was her vision. Yeah, he's married to Jacelle. I go Who's Jacelle? She knows his more famous wife. Yes. Yeah, so that's, that's fucking amazing. It glimpses into my mind set because for me, I only focus on the things that are really important around me. People I love, people that I can impact. And then anyone else just wanders into my universe. And then if they stay, we hang out and do stuff. If they don't, they usually leave with some knowledge or some change or some thinking and then they wander off and they do other good things. Like Amanda,

you know, she went and she's helped about thousands of people deal with this incredibly complicated, powerful, horrible subject. And she's doing it through art and it's healing her. I just met her on a plane. That's probably had a couple of drinks and didn't sleep well anyways, but I thought, ah, this was great energy. And maybe we can help each other. You know what I love about that story. It's a nice bit of proof of the expression game recognizes game. You didn't know who he was, but you recognized that he was someone.

This wasn't an insurance salesman or something, right? You knew this was a dude, even though you didn't know anything about it. And I have been fascinated in the way that special forces operators and quarterbacks, and you know, founders, even though they exist in totally different worlds and can do totally different things,

there's some level where once you've gotten, once you've achieved, maybe not even a black belt, but an upper belt in what you do, you have both a sixth sense for other people in their different worlds, and you have an openness to learning from them. Maybe even more than your other equals.

It's like, do you spend all more than your other equals, right? Like it's like, do you spend all your time with other fighters? Or what are your equal signs in totally different domains? Those are the people that teach you the most that you have the deepest connection with because there's not even the hint of like zero sumeness, right? Like your success in martial arts or business, it doesn't up or down, tomberating in any way. You're both just on your pursuit of mastery

and game recognizes game, or hunger recognizes hunger, or whatever. But that is a crazy story that I am very glad to hear. Yeah, that was all from you. That's super good. Dude, thank you so much. I'm so glad we did this in person. Me too.

Awesome. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us. And it would really help the show. We appreciate it. And I'll see you next episode. Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery

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