The Daily Stoic - Performance Anxiety & Yips With Eileen Canney Linnehan

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Ryan Speaks with Eileen Canney Linnehan on Yips, performance anxiety, and mental block on todays episode of the daily stoic podcast. Eileen Canney Linnehan was a star pitcher at Northwestern who suddenly could not throw to first base. Now she helps young athletes get through the debilitating issue. Eileen Canney Linnehan is a consultant who helps athletes at various levels get over the yips.www.ConsultWithECL.com ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And we have to do this the very way. You have to. I don't. Bosch Legacy. Watch the new season, now streaming exclusively on FreeVee. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life.

And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. I think it keeps us all up at night, right? This idea that your gifts could suddenly go away, right? You look at tiger woods on the golf course and, you know, man, what happened, right?

Are you see a picture can't throw the ball, a batter who can't hit the ball, you see that feel go kicker miss feel go after feel go after feel go and you feel for them. But really what you're saying is, oh my god, I hope that doesn't happen to me. And I mean writers, like I think about this with writing all the time, you hear about writers block. I don't know if it really exists or not. I mean, I know what does, but I also know what doesn't. And then at the same time, I go, what if it's just suddenly I couldn't do it anymore?

What if I sat down and I didn't have any more ideas? What if I couldn't make good stuff anymore? Right, that would be scary financially. It also be so scary from an identity perspective. And then there'd be embarrassment and shame and be a downward spiral. In the sports world they call this the Yips. They call that, but they don't really talk about it that much.

It's like the 800 pound gorilla, the elephant in the room, they know what happens, they don't know why it happens, they don't want it to happen, so they pretend it doesn't happen, they see someone spiral and losing it, and they're like, I don't want to mess with that, I don't want to get infected by that.

It's scary, it's terrifying. So I was fascinated, I read this New York Times piece about this woman named Eileen Caini Linnihan, an all-American four-time, all-ten big selection. She played softball at Northwestern. She was, wasn't is it? Absolutely great picture. And she's suffered from the Yips. She's suffered from this thing we all don't want to happen to us. And she's become an expert in helping people with that. So I hit her with an email and asked if she wanted to come on the podcast and she was

excited too. And that's what we ended up talking about. Performance anxiety, mental block, the Yips, whatever you want to call it. You may notice both of us raved about this book that we've both read called the phenom about Rich and about the pitcher Rich and Keel who reinvented himself after a terrible case of the Yips as a designated hitter. Eileen does not have a book out. I told her at the end of it that she absolutely must write one. You can go to her website, consultwithecl.com. You can go to her website at ECL underscore consulting, follow her on Twitter, at consult

with ECL and enjoy this interview and maybe share it with an athlete or a coach you know who's either dealing with it whereas players you're dealing with it because I think this is a great interview and I was really excited to do it. It's in Shilu Valley Township, I guess. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Illinois very well.

Yes, it's actually close to say Lewis. Interesting. Anyways, are you ready? All right. So I was thinking of you because the other day my wife was reading this book about like cognition and reading and she was like, Hey, I have a question for you. She was like, when you read, do you hear a voice in your head saying what the words are? Like, do you hear your own voice when you're reading?

And I was like, don't ever ask me this question again. I was like, I cannot think I was like, whatever it is, it's working. And I don't want to, I don't want to get up in there and fuck with it, right? I was like, my whole livelihood is dependent on whatever is working, continuing to work. And I don't want to get up and I don't want to mess with the gears, which I feel like is probably how

a lot of athletes feel with psychology and all of this stuff, which is like, it's working and they don't want to mess it up. And then it stops working. And then they're like, now I definitely don't know what to do. Yeah. And it's that like elephant in the room, like, you know what I don't talk about, I don't think about it. But in reality, owning it and thinking about it is actually allowing them to repeat it more consistently. Yes, and especially when you're running into trouble, then I think it does make sense to sort of get in there and root around. But I do feel like self-consciousness is the enemy of a lot of work that depends on being in a flow state. Do you agree with that? Yeah, yeah, I think so.

I think everybody is wired differently, but the more safe and comfortable that people feel going into a situation, the more willing to take the risk they are. So if they are subconscious or self-conscious and insecure about something that they're going into, where they're unsure of what would happen if the outcome is an ideal, then it might limit their confidence and trust taking that next step. or lack of confidence, but also in the sense of, if you are thinking about what you are doing,

while you are doing it, that also means you're not just doing it. Yes and no, yes and no. I think that sometimes, yes, in the flow state, you're not thinking about it, but the problem with a lot of people and personality types that might be prone to getting the gets or performance anxiety or mental blocks, those people are, there are more thoughts going through their head than they're even realizing,

which is why the brain then shuts off in protection. So sometimes they need to be more aware of what they're feeling in that state in order to counteract that. That makes sense to me. It's like their system is running too many programs, so it's crashing. So they're having to go, what programs do I want to be running right now? Because in this critical moment, I can't afford for the computer to glitch. I need to be eliminating the unproductive programs and running the productive programs. And that's it. I need to override what their instinct is in that situation when the mental block and the ups are popping up.

Well, maybe we start there. Give me a good definition of the Ips because I feel like some sports fans will know about it. And then because people don't want to talk about it, maybe people aren't as familiar with it as they should be. So my interpretation of the Ips, it tends to happen the most to people that have the same personality types that I have. So this is very telling and who I am. You're going to consider that. We are all people, pleasers, perfectionists, really hard working, over thinkers,

stubborn, competitive. We're also shaped to think that in order to get more, we have to do more. So nothing is, we run the risk of there being, like, nothing is ever going to be enough. So those are the personality types that it might attract some of those over-performance things. And then typically the tasks that are being attacked are the ones that we should be able to do. So the easier tasks or the ones that we've been able to do for a really long time in the flow state without thinking about it,

and then suddenly an outside element or trigger hits, whether we're aware of it or not, and it causes our brain to shoot into fight or flight. And it starts to, it's different for everybody based on this for it, but for me, it would fuzz out my nerve signals to my right arm. And so my arm, every time I'd go to throw my arm, just noodle, didn't know what I was trying to tell it to do. It wouldn't listen. noodle didn't matter what I was trying to tell it to do it wouldn't listen. But I have helped a lot of different athletes and people just different ages, gender, sports, whether it's softball, baseball, volleyball, tennis, golf,

pick-a-ball, and equestrian. Pick-a-ball, ready. They're already getting the yips in the kitchen. It's actually really common. Yeah, I've messed around with some pickleball also on my own. I, I, yeah, there are some moments where the stress gets so elevated, where it's something you should be able to do, right? And it, it, if you have some of those personality types, it, we just over perform this task. I've had a track runner.

So like some of the stuff that people feel, it's where the dreams where you're trying to run and you can't run, you're trying to move your arm to save somebody and you can't do that. And so everybody feels different things but it's always somebody's control being taken away. So the Yips are, if we're being specific, it tends to be the field goal kicker who just can't make field goals anymore. The pitcher who can throw to throw at the batter, but not to first base.

It's the catcher who can't throw it back to the pitcher. It's the golfer who can't make putts. It's usually not a complete collapse of the game, it's the golfer who can't make putts. It's usually not a complete collapse of the game, right? It's like, tends to be a specific element of the game, it seems. Yeah. Yes. It's shown up with pitchers and walking people. Rick Ankeel at Murderbook about his, yeah, the ability to be able to throw strikes. So I've helped a lot of pitchers and throwing strikes. And the spectrum is so broad. It can be my amazing nine year old daughter

who is like, I'm like, all right, one more two place off all, one more pitch. And she's like, well now I'm overthinking this last pitch. I'm like, who cares where it goes? Just throw it. And she finds her way back. So it can be as simple as something like that, but it can also be as broad as my arm going numb

and never making a successful overhand throw. So it can be different for everybody. And the mystery of it is like physically the person should be able to do the thing. And there doesn't seem to be neurologically some kind of injury, like an external injury, it is just the psychological inability to do something that a person has done flawlessly millions of times. Sometimes it comes out from a traumatic situation.

So like when I was younger, I overthrew a ball and I was 13 and lost the game for our team and I was so embarrassed from that situation that through some other stressful situations playing, like that caused mine, but it can happen after an injury. Sometimes people are nervous after they get hurt. Are they gonna be able to come back and perform at the same level they were?

Sometimes it's totally random and it just comes in. Sometimes it's different for everybody, I think. But yeah. No, no, I'm just pointing this out because it's, it can be traumatic. It can be an injury, but it's not, um, I broke my arm and now my arm's not as good as it was. It's, it's, it was, I got hit and now I'm thinking about my arm all the time. And even though I have, uh, the doctor has cleared me, I'm not back to my old self for some inexplicable reason. Yeah, and I think there's a big misconception.

A lot of people think the people that get the Yips are mentally weak. There's a huge misconception about that, which is very, very frustrating for every person that has experienced it. And there are a lot of people that have experienced it. And the people that get it, it's, in my opinion, it's the highest form of a compliment. It means your heart is really big and you really care about what you're trying to do,

but you're not lazy. It's not that you are being selfish and trying to let the team down and not working on these things and nothing coachable. It's just that they care too much generally. these things and nothing coachable. It's just that they care too much generally. Sure. And the suffering of it, I imagine, is almost more intense than my arm hurts from the injury. That's why I can't do it. The inexplicability of it and the lack of a clear the lack of a clear rehab plan or way to fix it, almost makes it more mystifying and terrifying and isolating and lonely. I imagine. Because you should be able to do it.

You should be able to do it. You should be able to do it. And then when you can't explain why you're not doing it, because it feels so bizarre, and unless you felt it, it's really, some people literally still think it's made up. But I mean, even like, like, I got a text from a family member where, and they know and believe it's a very real thing,

but there was a cartoon about these squirrels throwing the ball around with their eyes all... It's getting crazy, like, oh no, they all have the yips! You know, so there's this misconception of like, what, it's just a fascinating thing and all of those moments just make the people with them feel more alone and it feeds it more and it makes it way worse and way harder. medically that there's a hereditary component, we see it as a disease. And yet, willpower is also involved, right? And so, so people, you know,

they see someone slowly destroying their life, they see that it's not any fun for that person, and they're just sort of like, why don't you just stop doing it? And the person's like, if only it was that easy, you know? Yeah, totally. And so how did you come to specialize? So I played until I was 26 and I never...

I had moments of going in and out of practice. I was mostly fine every once in a while if I got stressed out in practice. I would struggle, but you made defensive shifts and plays and people had my back in that. So then once I stopped playing, I started coaching and when I was at UIC, University of Illinois, Chicago, I had a player that had a similar situation. Similar, it was like same defensive issue. And I started doing some research and through helping her,

I found steps that allowed her to move through it. She got through her issue, just I think also mainly in having someone to talk to about it. Because back when I was growing up, I would Google it and you couldn't find information on it, especially back then. And I knew that people like Steve Sacks and Mickey Sasser used to have those issues, but

there was nobody, and I saw sports, I called it a psychologist, but I had a hard time fully letting go of ways I had been doing it. So after I helped my player at UIC, I went on and spoke at convention in front of all of the softwaal coaches of all divisions and so it was 2012, 12 or 13. And ever since then I've been getting calls. And so just through, at this point I've probably helped maybe 150, and just through all of the natural conversations and steps that we have used to help people get over it, or I have used to help get people over it, I have found some really good techniques that, and also patterns and tendencies among the people

that get it. So, yeah. It must be tricky because I've got to imagine for an athlete pretty much every problem that they have solved in their life up until that point athletically. They have done with willpower and determination, right? You push through it, you keep going, you know, you do it through willpower.

And this is one of those things where the solution is the opposite of the thing, right? Like where willpower is effectively the problem or the source of the problem, caring too much, trying too hard, being too determined about it. And so how do you solve a problem on which the stakes are extremely high?

Your ability to play the game is at stake and you have to be less determined about it than you are for the other things that you have solved. Yeah, so you have to redirect what you're fighting. So when the yips are happening, you're fighting, your subconscious is teaming up against you. So the yips, the people around you that you're trying to provide for, as well as your subconscious, all of that is attacking your well-being. And going into that situation as a authentic self is really challenging then because you feel like you're doing it by yourself.

And so it's not necessarily doing less, it's doing less with certain things and redirecting that willpower and that fight into not doing it for those reasons and fighting for yourself to pull through and to fight against them and saying, I might make a mistake in this, but I'm not going to make a mistake because I'm worried about making a mistake. And so... Well, I think about Rick and Keel, right? He could throw in his driveway. He just couldn't throw in front of the crowd. Yeah, so everybody has a center point, I use the metaphor of a weed, right? So you can try all these different techniques

and different tools to try and get a different arm slot and do these things, but essentially if you're not getting at the root, whether it's afraid to fail, afraid to let people down, also for themselves, they have such a high level of expectation for themselves, that sometimes it is self-driven, not for other people, but if you think about the that level of expectation that they have, it's kind of like, you have kids, right? I can give. Okay. So in when they're younger, you're teaching them right from wrong. You're teaching them rules. And if they make a mistake in just a little kid actually dropping, it's an accident. They drop something. They don't get in trouble for

that. But if they break a rule, then they know that they know better. They know they shouldn't do. that they know better, they know they shouldn't do, there are consequences. And so for these people, it's, it, myself included, we create the standard that we're not allowed to live outside of. And if we break that rule, there is a natural reaction of some self punishment. It's well-intentioned because it's trying to help us move through it, but it's creating this dynamic that we need to do more to fix it and how could we let ourselves down. And so in learning how to be more of our authentic self and be proud of our journey and to see failure as an opportunity to show our resilience and show our commitment to ourselves and our passion. It allows us to go into that situation knowing and actually objectively looking at, did I make that mistake on purpose? No. Okay, I need to let it go. And that's going to allow me

to get the outcome that I want. Well, I think again about Rick and Kiel, right? Like he sort of has this traumatic thing. It's a sold out televised game. And he throws like three pitches in a row, like at the back stop. And that's what he's focusing on. Like I fucked up. I messed up. But as he tells it in his book, he's like, I think it's like dad and his brother. It'd been like arrested like the day before.

There have been some enormously traumatic family incident within hours of this happening. So a kinder person would have said to themselves, would have said, I'm having a terrible game because my family is in trouble. And by the way, this event is revealing to me that my family was not all that it seems. And it would be impossible to perform well under these standards. But instead, he gets in this loop where he messed up and now he doesn't trust himself and he like sort of can't get out of that loop. Yeah. I think it's there's some tricks that people can use sometimes also in lowering that expectation.

So, going into it saying, I have no idea what to expect, what this is going to bring. I'm just going to take it as it comes. So, sometimes people can lean into that idea or for Rick and Keel, I think, maybe saying, I have nothing to lose here. It's a, it's a halacious day. This is terrible. Like, I can't believe what I'm going through. And it therefore downplays what he's going into and lowers the expectations within his best self can raise up. But it's hard to, it's hard when

that's such a different mentality than that natural fighting. It's just when the brain starts kicking in in protection and trying to save you and take you out of that situation. Yeah. And I, you know, people think stoicism is the sort of suppression of emotion, right? And to me, that's a great example of what happens when you suppress emotions. Clearly his family was his family for an extended period of time. Right?

It's not like this is a surprise event, but he had clearly been in some ways in denial about it, right? And so then, when that becomes impossible to deny, when the trauma comes rushing to the surface, it's overwhelming and it leads to problems. And so I think that is, you know, people tend to think that, hey, if I ignore it, it will go away. Hey, I can't afford to think about that right now. I don't want to process it. So we stuff this stuff down,

but what happens is it comes exploding out in the worst possible moment. And then that can create very traumatic moments like the ones he experienced. Or the, you know, somebody, somebody misses a free throw and it costs them the game because x, y and z had been happening to them in recent days. Well, they're feeling like they don't trust themselves at the free throw line anymore. But really the free throw

a lot, the missing the free throw was a symptom of the other emotional issues earlier down the road. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a metaphor that I use with a lot in kind of explaining it. And it's the idea of, do you know how you're supposed to fight a black bear? So if it's a black bear, you fight back. It's a brown bear, you're supposed to lay down. Okay.

So with a black bear, we're kind of representing the yips. When you go into that situation and you feel the Yips, you're like, I don't want to feel this. Stop thinking about it, stop thinking about it, stop thinking about it, it just makes it worse. It just keeps getting like scarier and more passive, right, trying to hide from it.

But in reality, you have to fight it back like it's a black bear. You have to go and attack this thing head on, be open, talk about it, ask for help, being vulnerable, and that there are steps that you can do in this. But it's so bizarre when it's happening, it doesn't make sense why suddenly it just goes away. But it is a thing. And I think the more people talk about it as this, I don't know, just more openness with it. I have hopes that people will fight it more and then I hope it goes down and help the people

are getting it. Hopefully. What a life these celebrities lead. Imagine walking the red carpet, the cameras in your face, the designer clothes, the worst dress list, the big house, the world constantly peering in, the bursting bank account, the people trying to get the grobby mitts on it. What are you all about? I'm just saying, being really, really famous, it's not always easy. I'm Emily Loitani and I'm Annelion Grofie and we're the hosts of Terribly Famous from Wondery, the podcast which tells the stories of our favorite celebrities from their perspective. Each season we show you what it's really like being famous by taking you inside the life

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that come back to haunt us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes ad-free right now by joining Wondry Plus. Marcus Realis has his line in meditations he goes, today I escaped my anxiety. And then he goes, actually, no, I didn't escape it. I discarded it because it was inside me. And I think about anxiety being something similar to the yips in that the common variable is you. You know, the outside scenarios are not what's causing it. We go, oh, I get the yips, I get anxious at the airport or I get the yips when the game is on the line. But actually, you are, it's in you, right? The external thing is not causing it. It's you and the inside. And

realizing that could feel weird, but it's actually very empowering because then it means you also but it's actually very empowering because then it means you also hold the solution or the key to unlocking what that I love that I was doing some I was like looking into stoicism as well and I think that Like some of the virtues right it's being brave and doing what's right and the truth and understanding so many people that are experiencing it Sure really need to understand and want to understand why, why them, why is it happening to me? The people that don't get the gifts are the selfish, super mean teammates.

Those people will never get them. So the people that deserve the gift, generally speaking, the people that deserve the gifts, the least are the ones getting it. So then trying to make sense of that, and if your moral compass is trying to comprehend bad things happening to good people, and if I live life in this good, true way, why is this bad thing happening? And it doesn't make sense. But to me,, no, it does. And I think it is being brave and seeing it allows you to fight it back, even if it's

inside you. Totally agree. Well, the irony is, the person who gets anxiety about going to the airport and missing their flight is probably not the person who rolls up to the airport like 40 minutes before their plane takes off. They're the person who is already planning to get there two hours early, who packed the night before, who double and triple checked the IT in their arms. Yes. So you're torturing yourself even though you've already done vastly more than the average person to prevent the outcome that you are worried.

Absolutely. Oh, it's so true. And then telling those people, don't worry about it, don't stress out about it, but telling someone that typically over thinks not to over think, it's kind of a kind of mean, in my opinion, it's not possible. Yes. And then also, the people that get them are also typically really positive in the world Like if you were to ask people in their very close circle sometimes are people that break them old but Generally people are very Loving and empathetic and compassionate and the least judgmental people possible But then they have that moral standard for themselves that they don't want to break and so getting them to celebrate themselves in the way that they celebrate other people, they need to really look at everything.

So looking at worst case scenario, which people say generally not to do, they say don't be negative, don't be negative, but in reality, someone who have to in order to feel, in order to relax about that worst case scenario, you have to have a plan for that. Otherwise, those people that have those personality traits can't relax. You can't stop worrying. You can't stop trying to protect people around you. Well, the stoic practice there is, it's called premeditacio melorum, which means a premeditation of evils. It's effectively a pre-mortem instead of a post-mortem.

It's negative visualization. So Senaq is saying that, look, the unexpected stuff hurts the most. And so if you think about it and you work your way through it, you go, well, here's what I'm going to do. If this happens, here's what I'm going to do. If this happens, here's what I'm going to do. If that happens, hey, if that happens, is it actually the end of the world or does it just feel like it's the end of the world?

And you're sort of working through it. Now this is it. There's a tension there because you could also argue that thinking about the worst case scenario and meditating on it is what anxiety is. But I think that by thinking about it and then having a plan, you're actually setting your mind up to not have to worry about it because you've put some boundaries around it. You go, I'm going to walk up and talk to this pretty stranger. If the worst case scenario in your mind is that you could die, that's going to be very scary. If the worst case scenario is actually

that they're politely not interested and it doesn't go anywhere, those are two totally different environments to walk into and one is much more realistic than the other. Yeah, I listen to one of your podcasts about that specifically and I have a very personal story. I'd like to share with you and how it connects to this as well. And I find that my story in this also has been helpful

for other people in seeing and finding peace and moving forward with some things and becoming more present and where they are. So my mom passed away two and a half years ago. And thank you. And she was sick for nine years. So she was She was very young when she was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer and she For nine years, it's that up and down battle, right? The anxiety coming up and there's a big a big skin or is this thing? They're gonna work and at a certain point

It's not it's not very sustainable, right? It's living life in this constant state of panic. And so when I reflect back on that journey, there was a moment where I think we all had to kind of accept that we were going to lose her, right? And in coming to peace with that. And I think the fear was what would happen, you know, after the fact, what would life be like without her. But in fixing on that, it took me away from my moment with my mom. So that, I think reflecting back, I maybe

had that subconscious processing. And I let go of that. And I was able to be with her in every like final step you know through the end of that and that's something that after that the next step okay so obviously after losing her is challenging but then finding where do I want my journey to go? What do I want my legacy to be? What do I want my life to be? And how can I honor her? How can I carry her into this next stage of my life? And it was then that I became more public with my consulting

and trying to reach more people. And so turning something really hard and sad and terrible into something really good and spreading, helping spread herpidness, that's kind of how I'm trying to live life. So I feel like that matches a lot to kind of my own personal journey as well. Yeah, it's interesting.

Senek on the one hand says, you know, keep it all in your mind. Every bad thing that could happen, meditate on your negative, leave visualized. And the other hand, he says, he who suffers before it is necessary, suffers more than is necessary. So like we know what the outcome is going to be, or we know what a potential outcome is, right?

We could lose someone and that will make us very sad and will be lonely because of it. At some point our career is going to end. We could fail. We know these things are in the realm of possibilities. But if you're just walking around miserable because that's someday going to happen, you're actually just prolonging that shitty feeling. And as you said, you're taking away from the fact that while your mother has a

terminal diagnosis, she is not currently gone. She is currently here and you're rejecting the present moment with them. So it's actually it's taking the fit. You're feeling the thing you're going to feel someday. You're feeling it now instead of feeling what you should feel, which is grateful and good because that hasn't happened yet. Yeah, totally. It's so hard though. You know, like we know we don't have anything to be anxious about, but still the anxiety is there, or we know it's not happened yet, but we can't help ourselves from extrapolating. I feel like extrapolation is the enemy of a lot of happiness and performance.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The fear of the unknown and the also sometimes based on maybe how people are raised, right? If the waiting for the other shoe to drop, you know, being, being, Yeah. nervous about being comfortable, because maybe they haven't experienced that type of life. And then there's also the situation when people have been comfortable their whole life, and they feel like they need to live up to something to express their gratitude. And there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to do that. So.

Well, isn't that why, you know, extrapolation being so destructive or distracting? Isn't that why coaches talk about following the process? Because the process is the, the process is takes for granted that positive extrapolation, but it pushes it from your mind. It's like, hey, we know if you show up and you do the next right thing, if you do your job, if you follow the standards, more often than not, good performance and winning is going to come out of that. But you're not going to be thinking about it all the time. You're just going to be focused on this at bat or, you know, this drive or this game or this practice or this drill.

The process is inherently about extrapolation, but you're not the one doing the extrapolation. Right. The hardest part with that, I think, is that people, it's about how it's heard. So when I went to my sports psychologist, he was amazing and said wonderful things. I didn't always, I would project my own judgment onto him and thought he doesn't understand. He doesn't understand what I'm going through. So like how can I, how can this fully work?

So sometimes with coaches and saying, we're back to the process, sometimes I've had people say, well, they're supposed to say that to me. Or they don't understand because they don't have the same personality as me and they think it can be just so easy. And so they're, they have this fire,

especially a lot of these athletes have this really competitive fire that they hate failing and losing more than they like winning. And so sometimes respecting that process, they want, especially with younger generations now with social media and media gratification, they want to have that fast fix right away. that fast fix right away. Sorry, though. It's hard to trust a process which you have not experienced, so the coach has been doing this 30 years. So they've seen your exact problem

in your exact issue, not just happened before, but they've seen it play out and they've seen the athlete who did it the right way and come out of the other side. And they've seen the athlete who didn't and come out the wrong side, right? Like I now know the rhythms of the process of creating a book.

And I know there's moments where it feels like it's not going to come together. And there's moments of elation, followed by moments of despair. And I know the process because I've been through it a bunch of times. But if you had told me on my first book to trust the process in one of those moments of despair, I'd have been like, what process and why should I trust this? You know? But now I can. And so that's really the hard part is you are, when you're in it the first time, when

you're in your first slump or you're having your first issue or your first setback or you're coming back from your first injury, it's really hard to trust, because it's not trust. They're asking you to have faith, like faith without evidence that this process is going to see you through. You don't know, you don't believe it. And it's a it's a really hard thing to let go of the unknown. But again, it's thinking too far in the future. And then it's we're always trying to evolve and always trying to get

stronger. And so it's learning to let go of the past. Maybe it will look different. But something an exercise I like to do with some with my clients is I think about have them think about their future self their past self and their current self and think about the advice that they would give to each other and through that they learn how to give themselves self love in the moment more present because they're amazing teammates generally when they're out there and they see someone else floundering they're like it's okay I love you still. Right, no that's the tricky thing is like when people come to us for help or when people express

vulnerability to us I'm struggling I don't know what to do. I doubt myself. We're all over it. We're excited even to help. We respect them for the bravery to do it. And then when we're struggling, we are minds that goes to the exact opposite place, which says, like, I'm weak for thinking this, I'm going to be in imposition on other people to ask for help. We don't, we respect it when our teammates do it. And then we don't respect ourselves for needing to ask for reciprocation of the same thing that we gladly give to other. It's so unfair. It's so unkind and so unfair. I wish that we didn't do that to ourselves. And I think that, you know, our vision of being stoic, right? The stoic says like,

just deal with your suffering, just grit your teeth and bear it and keep going. And so one of the passages I actually talked to a lot of athletes about this is, and especially military groups when I speak to them, Mark Suryo says, you know, we're like soldiers storming a wall. He says, you've fallen and you need help. If you have to ask a comrade to pull you up, so what? I love it. And I love that part at the end. I love the so what? It's not like, hey, you should.

It's like literally, this is not only not a big deal. This is why you have teammates and comrades. This is what they are there for. And if you can start to see it that way, that actually it's almost selfish to not ask for help, to sort of take it upon yourself, that you're actually harming the team and the organization. I think you can counter balance that sort of guilt and

lowercase stoicism that says I should just stuff this down and this is my burden to bear. Yeah, completely. It's interesting Stoic is a word that was used a lot to describe me as a picture Have you seen a picture of what I look what I look like when I played? I a picture. Have you seen a picture of what I looked like when I played? I looked really mean. You should look at up. My face was I like never broke my like mean face, which is not my personality. I cried during commercials. I like, such I'm a super hugger. Like I'm very good. I have three dogs. I was super softy. So, um, yeah. But when I would go and play, I like put on this stoic face. Everyone would always say,

I'm asking, so stalk out there. And I think it seems to bother you. But inside, I would have fears, especially when it came to my overhand throwing. I didn't know what I know now, right? I think if, obviously, if I knew, the tools that I keep people now, I would have been able to come up with my solution back then. But I allowed my third basement who was like, amazing.

She would be like, watch out, I'm gonna push you over, don't take that ball for me, I need this ball. And in asking her for help, she was able to, it made her feel needed. And so she would want to get into the play more and so it created this beautiful chemistry within our infield there. But it took me being vulnerable and asking for that. But when it came to the actual pitching, I would compartmentalize it. So it's kind of different, but yeah, I don't know.

Well, I think this is similar with parenting, right? It's like, you want your kids to say, I'm scared, I'm intimidated, I need help, I don't know what to do. And yet you as the parent, how often are you actually modeling this, right? Are you saying, hey, I lost my temper because I was overwhelmed because I'm stressed because I have this thing going on at work. That's why I was behaving this way. That's self-awareness, right? Like, it's not weak or bad to think about why you are feeling and behaving the way that you are, and it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it's showing

that you understand why you did what you did and why that maybe wasn't the best thing to do. So if you think your job as the parent is to be invulnerable and all-knowing and infallible, you're actually missing the opportunity to teach them how to manage and deal with their own emotions, because they've never seen someone do that, right? Like they don't understand that the reason they are grouchy or they hit their brother or whatever is because they're having big feelings

and they could step back and deal with those feelings as opposed to express them in the behavior, because they've never seen mom and dad do that. Yeah, I think that that's definitely shift in. It's interesting because my the age range of my clients, I have it eight from 75 down to 10. So in hearing all the different stories and the different experiences that people have had, I think the older generation has experienced like just button it up and go. Don't talk about your feelings, especially for the male population. I think that that was harder.

But then, in general, right, just keep it all together, don't feel your feelings. And then now, it's, it's so I'm 38. So, like, I think for me, I was allowed to feel my feelings more, but I still needed to go and do these things. It wasn't as accessible. And now the younger generation, like whether it's like someone that's 20 or my nine-year-old daughter, it's somebody that is, is definitely getting better. But I still think that there's a misconception about vulnerability. Being vulnerable, it's being brave, putting yourself out there.

It's strong. It's allowing yourself to move forward and learn how to handle it in a reaction that you may be need to. Hearing your fears, knowing that you also have strengths to help you handle that. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe there's a difference that's what's like, maybe there's a different student self-consciousness, which I would say is largely not productive and self-awareness, which is productive, right? Self-consciousness is like, what are they going to think of me

if this happens? Or I look so stupid. You know, I always do this. Nobody likes, where you're thinking about how you're perceived in a way that becomes debilitating. And then self-awareness is like understanding the patterns that you have, understanding the loops that you can get into, the weaknesses that you have, that you're trying to work on, understanding your strengths, self-awareness is is going here's what I should be doing and here's where I am doing it and not doing it and

Here's what I'm trying to do to get better at it. Yeah completely. There are tools and steps out there to help people move forward It is funny though. You're talking about not talking about, I did it with my sister the other day and we were talking about our grandfather who was an extremely anxious person, like a debilitating person almost to the point later in his life to sort of agoraphobia and paranoia. And it wasn't that it wasn't talked about because it was talked about. Like he's a worry, you know, we talk about it. My parents would talk about how he was a worrier, you know, how he would, you know, they would talk about it as it was, as if it was a problem, which it was.

And then only later after he's passed on and I've started to understand his life more, that when I understand the circumstances of his life, you know, he's spent a good chunk of World War II and a refugee camp, you know, he barely escaped with his life. Like, as I understand his life, I understand that this anxiety is quite rational. Do you moment. And so it's almost like, I have an immense amount of sympathy and retrospect in that, it's like, it's almost like everyone was gaslighting him. Like they were just like, why are you like this? And the answer is, he's like this because of what he went through. And I don't think he was able to be kind enough to himself

to see the connection between one and the other. That this has nothing to do with the family road trip or nothing to do with the weather report. It has everything to do with his unique circumstances. But then also everyone else sort of just assuming that he should be normal, that there would be no consequences as a result of what he went through, was also kind of profoundly okay.

Super unfair. And also what of profoundly. Super on there. And also, what is normal? Hey you, yeah you. I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Jiffy is the fastest and easiest way to get jobs done around the house. Just hop on the Jiffy app, choose from the 40 plus services, and bam, you'll be matched with a reliable Pro in seconds. Windows and Eves cleaning, check,

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And we are the hosts of a Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people

to the extremes of human behavior. Find, download, and binge-read-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts. themselves, right? So like I think in just being that and just seeing if he wants to go and do those things, giving himself grace with that, there's also a negative reappraisal. There's a tendency that people have in gaslighting themselves. So sometimes negative reappraisal can be helpful in saying, we talk we reference Rick Ankeel, right? It could be, there's much more serious things happening in my life right now. I have, this is just baseball, I'm just going to play the game.

That can be a helpful perspective, but you can also be dangerous where losing my mom after a nine year battle, maybe someone lost their mom from a heart attack. So saying, well, it could be worse. Maybe this situation could be worse and then in a way, a little, it minimizes what that experience was. And so I think that happens a lot and it sounds like maybe even with your grandpa, it, well, yeah, he went through these things, but he needs to figure it out and, you know, it could be worse. He needs to be normal. Hearing the trauma, acknowledging the trauma, and connecting rather than separating,

that we live for connection, right? So in finding that connection, it allows him to see that maybe there is a different way that he can do it and taking that risk not being alone is a problem. Well, you can see how easily multi-generational trauma happens, right? So he goes through something. And then, of course, my mom lives in this house, which would have been a pressure cooker

and would have had stress and fear and high cortisol levels and hormonal responses. And then, because the source of it is not talked about or dealt with, it forms and shapes her life. And then two generations later, I'm a seven year old and I can't figure out why I'm stressed out. Like, it's because I'm, and then conversely now, I have a seven year old and he can't figure out why I'm stressed out, right? Like it's because I'm, you know, and then conversely now I have a seven year old and he can't figure it.

And so by not talking about it and not dealing with it, not asking for help with it, you're not fooling anyone, right? Like you're not fooling anyone. You're actually only ensuring that it continues to affect and traumatize and complicate things for your teammates or yourself or your siblings or your offspring. Yeah.

Seeing it, this is, you're seeing my saffy heart come out here, but seeing it all through play out that way or when people look at their past current and future self, it's it's so hard for me to not get like to love the beauty of that connection. And in trying to, in talk, I talk very openly with my feelings of, you know, about what I went through with my mom, with my kids, so that I hope they are able to then process maybe my passing down the road in an easier way. It's a beautiful gift that we get to pass on, but it's also recognizing maybe it's harder for some people

to do that, but just because it's harder doesn't mean it can't happen, or maybe it needs to happen in their own way, and letting their own individuality play into it, whether it's through art or sports or a book, or movies or traditions. Yeah, I just think that's just a beautiful thing that life gives us. No, I totally agree.

Like when the stomach say the obstacle is the way, they don't mean, oh, because of this thing you went through, you're necessarily or automatically, you're going to be a better athlete for it, right? That it, it's going to, it's, that this, this, this, this disadvantage turns into an advantage on the field or whatever. There's, there's no upside to tragically losing your mother. The way that the obstacle becomes the way is that because of the pain of that experience, the pain of your own children is potentially lessened

slightly because a lesson was learned and things were done differently in the future. Do you know what I mean? And so in a sense, it's a darker version, but it's also more, more beautiful. I agree with you. It's more beautiful to know, hey, because of what I went through, I can make it better for other people as you have done in your career or as you do with your own family. To me, that's what the obstacle is the way it means. It's that these these difficult traumatizing, painful things that we go through, there's also the opportunity

for what they call post-traumatic growth also, that something good can come out of it in terms of wisdom or empathy or love or connection, not your batting average improved as a result of it. Yeah, and then in letting and seeing it that way and letting go of the outcome, going more process oriented, then I have found with my clients. It's interesting because I have some clients that are actively playing and I have some clients that aren't that maybe suffered from it and want to get closure or peace. I also have some people that have hopes of playing catch with their future kids and those things. So yeah, but it goes hand in hand. The happier they are, the less they suffer from the yips. But because they're happier, they're not afraid for the yits to come, which the fear feeds them. So then, but they also know

they have the tools if they do come. So it's literally, I can geek out about that part of my job forever, because when they have that awha moment and they realize that they can actually let go and be happy and when they're happier, they play better and they found their process, that they have been hearing about and thinking about and trying to do for so long. When, and that's Rick and Kiel's story, right? He doesn't really pitch again.

He becomes a designated hitter. But I think, look, the movie version of that story is he becomes a designated hitter and then hits a grand slam in the World Series and everything's amazing. I mean, it's a pretty short DH career that he has. But what everyone who witnesses it takes from, it's that he was still standing

at the end of it. That was the beauty. You know what I mean? It was that he got a single at bat was enough. That was like the opportunity and the beauty and the success of it wasn't that he triumphed over all of it and became the best in the world. It's that he muddled through it and found some satisfaction and pride on the other side. Like, we're talking about cancer. You don't win. You know what I mean? You don't beat it. It's that you maybe you carve out a few more years or you connections come you know you appreciate the time that you have. These aren't storybook endings necessarily. They are if you look at it from the

right angle. So what stood out to me in in Rick and he'll's book was the timing of when he made the call to to stop pitching. He had just met his now wife. So something that I work with my clients on is separating who they are from what they do. And so that is a massive step in just connecting that. So when they fail, they don't identify as a failure. When they struggle with something, it doesn't mean that they are e-stregal or they needing help as weak. So when I read that part, it like really hit me, I'm like, oh my gosh, he feels so comfortable

in his own life right now after his own personal trauma that he's seeing that he is worthy of being happy and that he doesn't need baseball. He might want it, and that's a different scenario, but when you need it or it's a job or it's your livelihood, it shoots you into that fight or fight. And so in disconnecting that, it's not disloyal to the game. So the people that are experiencing mental blocks or high anxiety in like when you're in a really loving relationship or as a parent, you really love

or even with pets, you really love them, but just because you really love them doesn't mean you need to think about them all the time, right? It doesn't, it's not disloyal to your children to not think about them for every second. You have you feel safe and comfortable within that relationship to know that it's okay to not think about it. So literally almost every person that I've ever helped that his experienced he is, they think about it all the time. They think about it the moment they wake up they wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it wondering what's going to happen. is it going to impact something else and in

learning that like I make a rule I say they're not allowed to think about their sport or the Yips if they're not actually doing this work. So in following that they actually become more present with their within the classroom if it's a student if it With in their relationship and so those situations become richer and more full So there's less conflict and then they're able to compartmentalize and in turn it it eliminates their their lips They go away. What's like? Thinking about your kids and what could happen to them all the time is not actually making you a better parent.

It's making you more stressed out and overly attached parent. And so yeah, it's not only not a betrayal. It's like what you should be doing. And so yet, detachment feels like the antithesis of good parenting, but because what we're trying to do is create attachment literally,

but weirdly too much of it is the wrong way to go. And you sort of have to disconnect slightly, you have to turn down the volume a little bit. And conversely, this makes you better at the thing, better at parenting, better at hitting a baseball, you know, better at putting whatever it is. It makes you better. Like paradoxically, I found like the the last I have thought about the sales of my books, the more they have sold. Because I'm thinking I'm thinking more about am I making the right book? Am I authentically in it and interested in it? Do you know what I mean? I'm more engaged in the process of it, and I'm not thinking, how is this gonna play? What are they gonna think about this?

I'm just in the moment of the thing. So it's not only not a betrayal, it's weirdly a kind of a deeper commitment to what you're doing. I couldn't agree with you. But it's hard, but it's hard a kind of a deeper commitment to what you're doing. I couldn't agree with you. But it's hard, but it's hard when you're judged on wins and losses and sales, right? So you have to, you have to kind of transcend the griminess of the thing and attach to it at

a higher level. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. Well, this has been amazing. I'm so fascinated by what you do. And I, I, I imagine writer's block is, is a similar form of the YIPS. That and then public speaking to, mm-hmm. Stage fright. Stage fright, yeah, the same. Yeah, it's so interesting. I have some messages from some of my clients that they wanted me to pass along to people that

to give them hope. Can I can I? Yes, that's beautiful. Don't give up. Find someone to trust and share what you're going through. Um, one of my clients, I have an equestrian. Um, they say ask for help and then it's okay to need help. They have a more positive relationship with the sport and therefore herself. Have hope because you can get through it. Don't be embarrassed. Be open and don't hide it rely on support and those around you It will get better and you will find your new normal

Remember whatever you're experiencing lots of other people have experienced it and you can find people to help you And own what you're going through and know you aren't alone by owning it you have support internally and you can get help alone by owning it, you have support internally and you can get help. So it's just I like just hearing them find their voice through my voice in this and the stuff I'm teaching is so special and I think it the domino effect of it, I hope, helps so many people. No, I think it's beautiful and it's particularly important because as we said, this is a thing that not only did people not think existed but largely denied existed for a very long time. So you think about the amount of suffering

that people went through alone or criticism that they went through alone. And then you think about what they're saying the solution to the YIPS is it really makes you Yeah, it makes me feel for the you know the Steve Sacks of the world like There wasn't the understanding or the empathy or the The support system necessary and so the the people were going through a not a preventable or a solvable thing necessarily But they there there was stuff that would help,

but that wasn't available. And we're much luckier because that stuff is available. And people have talked about it, and we should take advantage of it. Yeah. I think it's also interesting because with social media, people can hide behind things. So sometimes people are really unkind still. So even though there are more resources for help,

it also unfortunately can increase bullying and people criticizing. So I think my request and that is just for people to ease up and understand that if suddenly somebody loses the skill that they were able to do in a non-stressable situation, they're not trying to, they're trying really hard not to, and that being kind and supportive and compassionate to them is going to help get over it much faster. And I think that's just the world needs that right now. There's a lot of really dark separating situation. Then I think the more compassionate we are to other people and not belittling what their experiences,

the more you can try and create that connection again. Nothing is more terrifying than the prospect or the reality of your gifts abandoning you or losing your touch, right? And so no one is suffering more than that person, right? And so the reaction should be there, but for the grace of God, go I. Like, that could be you. And think about how awful that would be.

Not look what they just cost me, or like, this is the easiest thing in the world. Look at how much they're being paid to do this thing and you can't do it. It's torturous. It's torturous. And to understand that, yeah, depression, addiction, all of these sort of silent afflictions,

the person is suffering at a level that we really can't comprehend and grace and empathy and understanding are really the only proper responses. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. Hey Prime Members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.

Okay, so if you had a time machine, how far in time would you need to go back to be a dominant basketball player of that year? I need to go to when Bob Coosie was playing. Back in the plumber day. 27 year old Shay would give Bob Cooszy the business. He's not guarding me. Hi I'm Jason G'Zepsione. And I'm Shay Serrano and we are back. We have a new podcast from Wondering. It's called Six Trophies. And it's the best. Each week Shay and I are coming through all of the NBA

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