The Daily Stoic - Politics, Empowerment, And Never Giving Up | Senator Martha McSally PT 1

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Martha Elizabeth McSally is an American politician and former military pilot who has represented Arizona in the United States House of Representatives and the United States Senate. Martha served in the United States Air Force from 1988 to 2010, achieving the rank of colonel. She is also a marathon runner and survivor of assault. Her book, Dare to Fly: Simple Lessons in Never Giving Up, can be found on her website, marthamcsally.com.X: @MarthaMcSallyIG: @marthamcsally✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. So back in ancient Rome, there was this thing called the cursus anorum,

which basically meant the ladder of offices. You watch someone like Cicero or Cato, even Marcus Aurelius when he's selected to become emperor, you don't just get the top job usually. You work your way up the system. And it was this system in Roman and in Roman life where you held successive offices and you sort of proved your mettle, you learned on the job, you showed what you're capable of and it was that

idea, that ladder of offices, that was one of the first things I thought about when I was reading the bio of today's guest. Because Martha McSally has had an incredible and fascinating life. She graduates from the US Air Force Academy. She's the first female US fighter pilot, the first one to fly in combat. After she retires from the Air Force, she She's the first female US fighter pilot, the first one to fly in combat. After she retires from the Air Force, she serves in the US House of Representatives, what is sometimes called the lower house. And then she's appointed to fill a term as a US Senator, the higher house. In between there, she earns a master's degree from Harvard. She has a master's in strategic studies from the Air War College.

What just an absolutely fascinating person and a fascinating life. And so I was really excited to have her on the podcast. We had a great conversation. We did a two hour interview. We got right into it. We talked about exercise, physical fitness. We were talking about this right at the beginning

of the year, sort of who are you gonna be this year? What are you gonna work on this year? And she and I were both, as it happens, trying to work on being a little, not less disciplined, but a little more disciplined in our self-discipline, which is obviously something I've been talking a lot about recently. And I just really enjoyed this conversation. Senator McSally, although no longer a senator, but I feel like that's a title. Once you get

you can keep it. She has a great book called Dare to Fly. She signed some copies at the painted porch. You can grab that. And I think you're gonna enjoy this interview with this trailblazing, tough, very smart woman. Enjoy. ["The Day I Met You"] Did you run this morning? I walked. You walked? Yeah, I went for a walk.

So I did my Wim Hof breathing. Okay. Then I went for a walk. So I did my Wim Hof breathing. Okay. Then I went for a walk to get a Dunkin' Coffee and then I tuned into my friend's breath work, 45 minute Zoom. Okay. And yeah, so today's, usually I do yoga on Wednesdays lately

in my crazy ass transformation I'm in the middle of right now. What is that? I can't wait to talk about it. Okay, what's the transformation? Are we on? Uh-huh. Well, I don't want to go in too deep, but...

That's what we're here for. I do a lot of reflection lately on past year review at the end of the year. So looking back at 2023, some of this is like a merge of Tim Ferriss' ideas and Ben Hardy. Identify my peak experiences, positive and negative. You know, I literally look through every day on the calendar. Right.

What was on the calendar, what my photos were, and identify in green each day gets a tick mark, green, red, or neutral. Wow. Reflecting back. And then I list- At the end of the year, you're doing this. At the end of the year. It's a past year review. Then I list my peak positive experiences.

Who was I with? What was I doing? You know, what are the themes? Peak negative. And then the intention is like, do more of the positive, of course. Raise your floor, do less of the negative. And lately, I don't set any goals.

Oh. I take the identity-based approach to things. I really have come to understand in my life what we say after the words, I am, whether it's just the definition of who we are, the core essence of who we are, really matters. But in even kind of operational ways, identity-based approach, kind of James Clear in Atomic Habits. What's your identity in this area of your life, and what does that look like? And then you build habits and processes

to cast votes for that identity, to use his terms. So I do this for all elements of my life, like physical health, emotional health, relationships, work, finances, impact across the board. And I reflect on and kind of download a word of the year. So for 2024, the word of the year was allow. Okay. And in the area of physical health,

I thought like, hey, I'm physically healthy. I'm fit. I do a lot of- Sure, you run ultra marathon stuff. I do a lot of... Sure, you run ultra marathons. I do a lot of adventure stuff. So I simply wrote, I'm physically healthy. I take care of this impermanent vessel. That's all I wrote for physical health.

Now I listed some habits. And then a friend of mine, Joe Polish, I don't know if you know Joe, he and Whitney Jones started this lean life challenge with a bunch of friends in Genius Network. And at first I thought like, well, that's not for me. Cause like I'm fit and healthy. That's for people who need to lose weight and get in shape.

But I decided, hey, I wanted to build some muscle. So I'll join. And my life has been transformed over the last month. Like massively by tracking my macros, first of all, knowing what's going in my body, being intentional about specifically the protein, but also the rest of it. It's a pain in the, that's right.

Like I'm cooking for the first time in my life. I went through some huge resistance. Like when I filled out the intake, I basically said all the things I wasn't willing to do. And what I wanted to have happen anyway. So I had to get through this resistance, but I found that I'm eating more, punchline, eating more, working out less.

And I discovered I was over training and undernourishing. Sure. So I turned it around and under nourishing. Sure. So I turned it around and within a couple of weeks, I'm just dropping fat. I also realized I was skinny fat. Sure. I got a body composition. I was like, holy crap.

I thought I was like this, you know, fit person. And I actually have been running up my physical credit cards and put myself in a situation where I was demanding a lot of my body and doing it all for mental toughness, not based on what my body needed. So like everything is transformed in my life, simply by saying allow,

and my identity is someone who takes care of my physical vessel, and then being willing to be open to what that meant. So there's a bunch there I wanna talk about. But I like the goals things, that's interesting. I try not to have goals also. I try not to have goals. The Stokes would say that the problem with goals

is that most of the things we have goals about are not in our control. Yes. Right, so like you wanna run for office, there's a part of that that not in our control. Yes. Right, so like you want to run for office. There's a part of that that's in your control, but ultimately like somebody decides whether you do it or not, right? You want to be a bestselling author,

can write a really good book. Yeah. You can go on the road marketing it, but ultimately like not only do the customers decide the moment in time that you're in decides, right? There could be a hurricane, your book comes out during a pandemic, things can interrupt it.

And then ultimately the New York Times decides, it's not, no competition is actually fair. Yeah. Right. And so the problem with goals is that we, not having goals is kind of a problem, right? Most people aren't aiming at anything. Visions, yeah. But then the problem is so many of our goals

are based on stuff that's not ultimately up to us and then we feel like shit or we feel less than when we don't get that thing. Right, which is what most people do right around the beginning of the year. Yeah. All right, they start their, you know, this is gonna be a different year,

their resolutions or whatever that is. Sure. And then they beat themselves up when they don't, you know, adjust their behavior or they don't adjust their behavior, or they don't stick to it, then they get into the negative self-talk, and then they give up. So I brute forced my way through a lot of goals in my life,

like a lot in the past, where I just, through sheer determination, made them happen, maybe not the most productive path, but I did it. But at this stage in my life, I realized, set the vision, set the identity with the I am statements in the present, and then the process and the micro habits

is what really matters. And then you just stay unattached to the outcome. Yeah, I think people think if you don't have goals, you won't accomplish or achieve anything. And it can make it harder, but yeah, I think if you identify with the process or the practices or the things that are in your control that tend to be associated with that outcome,

you can still get there without the inherent vulnerability of I only matter if I get a Nobel Prize. I only matter if I am the top of the Forbes list or whatever. First off, I think having a range of outcomes is better. I wanna be over here with these people or in this line of work that's different, then I need to be the best or have the most or be the fastest.

And then, again, if you focus on, like I've learned as an author, if I focus 99.9% of my energy on writing and thinking and doing my job, the results take care of themself. I don't need to add on top of that, like this thing is a failure if it doesn't achieve X. Totally agree. And I think, again, I've set a lot of goals,

saw the Hawaii Ironman on television one day and said, I'm gonna do that, and then did it. So that helped me really keep that vision in mind when I was making decisions on Saturday mornings when my friends were sleeping in. Get up, put your shoes on, what would an Ironman triathlete do? They would get out and go for a bike ride, go for a run.

But the problem with just a goal, like, I'm going to do this, is when it's over, you're chasing the horizon. What's next? So as I've grown wiser in my years, I realized those identity-based visions, like really centering with yourself going, what do I want?

Yeah. Like, what is my purpose? What's my vision for this area of my life? Write that out in an I am statement as if it's the present, even though it feels like it's the future self and you don't feel like you're good enough or whatever that stuff that starts resisting it.

And then build the processes and the micro habits that are going to be attached to that identity. James Clear talks about this a lot in Atomic Habits, but I believe in, I've lived it in my life. And then you can become satisfied in the journey too. Not just the destination. Yeah, I think if you focus more on the verb than the noun, right, then you do achieve that thing.

Aristotle talked about this way before any of these other people, right? He's saying that, like, if you want to be generous or you want to be wise or you want to be courageous, it's not this end point, like, you don't become that thing, you do that thing, right? And you do it- You be that thing.

Yeah, you do it in small situations and big ones, and then you are that thing, in that moment that you're doing it. And of course, if you do cumulatively over the course of a life, then you can earn or be referred to by the title of that thing. But yeah, I think we so often think of these things

as end states as opposed to actions that we engage in or habits that we follow. Or just a way of being. Yes. A way of being. So I help people go through this I am process too. When you ask someone, actually the question, who are you? What do you answer?

Yes. Usually we answer, I'm an author, I'm a fighter pilot, I'm a colonel, I'm a whatever. We usually answer our titles or roles in life. I'm a father, I'm a fighter pilot, I'm a colonel, I'm a whatever. We usually answer our titles or roles in life. I'm a father, I'm a husband, you know. But that's just something we're doing. That's not who we, that's a role we're in. It's not who we are.

And so as we peel that onion back, when we leave those roles, you leave the military, you get the divorce papers, like something bad happens. Now we lose our footing. And so then oftentimes we define ourselves by how we feel and it's usually negative, right? Whatever those negative, because we feel kind of naked once our titles and our roles and the things

that give us sort of false peace are stripped away. Even if they're not, as you think about that, often we then attach to our negative feelings. But if we keep peeling that back and really connect to that, what are you doing here? Who are you? Who is the divine essence of who you are? If your funeral is tomorrow,

what words, even though words are imperfect, would you want people to use to describe you who really, really get you? Right, it's probably not gonna be a professional title. No, no. For me, my top five, you wanna hear them? Sure. I'm courageous, I am integrity, I am generous,

I am growing, I am relentless. There's more, but those are kind of the top five that emerged when I went through this process recently, actually refreshed it. And it can be deeply profound as I bring people through this, even ask like your close friends and family members, give me the five words, people who really know you. How would you describe me?

And attaching to those I ams can then help you assess, you assess, you know, do your thoughts line up with that? Does your bank account? Sure. Your schedule? Yeah. All right, your decisions. And then as you kind of maybe can clear some of the,

no, clear it away. Then as you're making new decisions, new visions, new habits, just staying aligned is what really can bring you peace if today is your last day and taking that as a gift, which I learned at an early age. So your end of year review, I think, is interesting. And I wonder if part of that comes

from your experience as a pilot, right? So obviously there's a briefing before the mission, then there's the debriefing after the mission. And there's a book on this, which I've been recommended many times and I haven't read, but it's called, Debrief to Win. And the idea is that you're supposed to debrief after everything.

And I think there is this tendency, we're always focused on where we're trying to go, and we don't take the time to stop and go like, how did today go? How did yesterday go? How did last year go? And the problem is that, you know, how are you going to, how are you knowing,

how are you, the future determined by the past, right? And so if we can take some time and reflect and review, put ourselves up for review, as the stoics say, we're going to be more successful in the future, we're gonna be more aligned with where we're supposed to go. So do you do that every year? Just recently started doing this in a deeper way, in the last like four years or so.

Yeah. But it's a practice that I spend more time actually, and I'm not like stuck on the past, just to be clear. I also want people to not be held back from the past, all we have is the present. But review the past, just to be clear. I also want people to not be held back from the past. All we have is the present. But review the past, reflect on it. I continue, I list the books I read, the lessons I learned, what I want to stop, start, keep.

There's many elements to this. But as you reflect, then that can help really inform your vision for where you're going next. With an open hand based on, again, identity, not on I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. Like, who do I wanna be? Who am I?

And what's working for me and what's not working? What's not? Stop the things that are not working. Lessons are repeated until they're learned. So as a fighter pilot, we would come back from every mission and brutally debrief. Yeah.

I mean, we'd take the rank off. You could have a colonel flying with a lieutenant, and we would list our objectives, which we had at the briefing. And we review the tape. The tape does not lie. The heads-up display. Right. When you say, no, I was in position.

You know, my dive angle was good. Well, let's slow it down here and look. No, it wasn't. Right. So, where did that come from? and look. No, it wasn't. Right. So where did that come from? What can you do better next time? What did we learn from this? And you're never perfect.

So we're constantly in a very raw way, which is uncomfortable, but I had to learn how to have thick skin if you're willing to grow and learn and not take things personally, but always be willing to see where you can improve, where you were off, where you can go out tomorrow and do it better and continue to grow.

So those tools for sure is a mindset I've had for my life. Yeah, I think people think like, you know, they know athletes watch a lot of film. And I think they think that the athletes are watching film of the competition, right? That it's scouting. Here's what they tend to do. No, they're watching film of the competition, right? That it's scouting, here's what they tend to do. No, they're watching film of themselves

over and over and over again. And yeah, like the coaches usually standing there, they have like sort of a button kind of on like a string and it can start and start, it's like a remote. And they're just, why did you do this? Why did you do this? In slow motion. Yeah, and everyone's sitting there and laughing.

And you know, and that this is the process that Tom Brady is going through, that Patrick Mahomes is going through. Like, it doesn't matter how good you are, how important you are, how much you won by, right? How well the outcome went. They're gonna find the couple of mistakes that you went and go over them over and over and over again.

So you learn from them. But we don't subject ourselves to that process, most of us. Even though we know that process makes people better, we don't look at it. Yeah, it's probably fear or self-judgment that has us not just, we don't wanna see it. But everybody else sees it usually, right? So, I mean, it's all about the inner work.

That's the only thing we can control. So if we are willing to have the courage to say, all right, where can I grow? Where did I mess up this conversation? Not beat yourself up, but how could I have done better in this situation? Then you can grow. But if you choose not to look at it,

you'll stay in that pattern. Hello, I'm Emily, one of the hosts of Terribly Famous, the show that takes you inside the lives of our biggest celebrities. Some of them hit the big time overnight, some had to plug away for years, but in our latest series, we're talking about a man who was world famous before he was even born. A life of extreme privilege that was mapped out from the start, but left him struggling to find his true purpose.

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So if allow is your word this year, like what was your word last year? So actually last year was also allow, which is not normal. It's not normal. But in the past, it was again, I'm in a different phase of life right now, but freedom, adventure, love, impact, those have been some themes in the last and it was more than one word in 2021 and 2022, but I just felt where I am right now, instead of declaring all these different elements,

I just needed to stay in a state of allowing, just in my own emotional and spiritual growth, is allow, be open as a vessel, to be used, to be impactful, and see where it takes you. And like I said, these last 30 days of all the areas of my life, I wasn't even focused on physical health, but because I was open,

the universe was like, okay, bring the two by four, she needs this. And I didn't realize that my health was actually on the verge of really suffering. And I had some indications that some things were off, but I kept ignoring them because I was like, oh, I can go on a hundred mile track. Like, I'm fine. And thank God, you know, that I was willing to be open to change. Is it harder for you to say like, go for a walk today instead of a long run? No, I do lots of walks.

I mean, it's part of my morning routine. No, mine too. I just mean like, in some ways, is it tougher for you to do less than more? Yes. Earlier in my life, for sure. Now I'm in a, you know in a different state where I understand that but in the physical for me to realize I was over training

and today is a rest day and today is a yoga day. It was like, I could easily go for a run. Like no, stress plus rest equals growth is peak performance, right? So you've got to have that rest and the nourishment. I mean, I've been like binge listening to experts on nutrition and fitness. I'm like, how did I not know these things?

I have been an athlete my whole life. And I feel so stupid that I didn't know the basics of nutrition and the basics of how to build muscle, how to lose fat, you know, how the gut works, like all this stuff. So I'm, you know, I'm consuming now in a massive way, but it's been an amazing transformation. I think the key is whether somebody wants to transform their physical health or not.

I wanted to offer, I've created your rapid transformation guide, which is free for your listeners at 2024bestyear.com. Okay. If you still want 2024 to be your best year, which can still happen. It's only a month in. It can still happen.

Then I just share some principles there. You know, there's no, nothing catchy. I'm not trying to sell you anything. It's just some principles there that I've used in my life that I'm using now that has aided in my rapid transformation that's going on as we speak, that people could use in any area of their life, whether it's their work, their relationships,

physical health or anything. Yeah, my word last year was less, just sort of, I was thinking less commitments, less activity, less drama, less stress, just reminding myself that, especially as you become more successful, your life should become better, right? Not-

Yeah, more complicated. Yeah, not more complicated, not lessen your control, just sort of less. And then this year, my word sort of related to that, having learned some lessons from last year, my word this year is systems. So, yeah, because systems are a way, in some ways systems demand more,

but they're also a way to do less, right? To waste less, to have less inefficiencies, et cetera. So I'm focusing more on systems, less making the same mistake over and over again, just my wife and I are just thinking a lot more about systems. So things are just sort of operating in the background, operating on autopilot. Nice.

And then we're also, yeah, we're just catching, the systems are doing the work instead of us doing the work. More efficiency, right? And effectiveness when you've got good systems and processes. Yeah, well, less should ideally be a way to do more, right? Because when you're taking something away, you should be getting more of something else.

Even if that, which I think maybe, I guess would have been 2019, my word in 2019 was stillness. So like you should get from less activity, you get more stillness. Yeah, have you always had a word of the year? Not every single year, but I started doing it. For Daily Stoke, we do these challenges every year.

And that was one of the early ones, is like, I'm gonna do a challenge. Or one of the challenges was, what's your word for the year? What are you sort of thinking about? Because it can be really helpful to have just in a single phrase or a single word, an embodiment of what you're trying to do or be that year, so that as you come to individual decisions, you have kind of a watchword

that guides you, that makes a complicated situation pretty simple. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's your intent, just setting that intention. Yes. And I mean, you got, things may blow up, you know, by the end of the first quarter and in negative or positive ways, new opportunities may come.

And so being grounded in that, and then also open, allows you, because sometimes people I think get like, well, this is what I'm doing and these are my goals. But if you're not open for, you know, divine derailments for things that you couldn't even foresee. You couldn't even imagine, but they're right in front of you, a conversation on a plane ride that could change your life. So just being open could take you in a different direction.

Well, allow is an interesting word. The Stoics talk a lot about acceptance or even resignation. And those words sit poorly, or at least uncomfortable with a lot of people, right? Because it seems passive, it seems weak. It seems like it's accepting injustices or problems. The world wouldn't get better if everyone accepted everything. That's what we take.

But actually there is something I think very powerful about acceptance and I think your use of the word allow is interesting because it allows a different way to think about it, right? Because allowing is almost coming from a place above as a, instead of a place below, right? You're saying, I am allowing this to happen to me as opposed to, you know,

I'm simply accepting that this happened. But the Stokes call this the art of acquiescence. The idea of that actually the first step to all things in life has to be an acceptance. Even the stuff that you don't like that shouldn't have happened that you don't like, that shouldn't have happened, that you don't want to allow to happen again. It still did happen.

It happened. So pretending that it didn't, or denying that it didn't, or whatever it is, it's just holding you back from doing something about it. Yeah, stop resisting what is. We spend a lot of energy resisting what is. Yes. Whether we don't like our boss or, you know,

the relationship we're in, we really want other people to change. If we could accept what is, then you can address the things that are in your control to actually create the life you want, the relationship you want, the situation you want. But we spend so much energy resisting what actually is. They're arguing with it as if it cares.

Yeah. Or when it comes to the past. I mean, I've been through some trauma in my life that has deeply impacted me. But I learned at an early age, I just don't know, I now know what to call it, but I learned early on, like, well, it's not happening to me right now. Sure.

And I remember saying this shortly after something really, really awful happened to me. Well, it's not happening to me right now, it doesn't have any power over me. Now, there was a little disassociation going on there that needed to be integrated over time, but it was still truth. And it did happen.

It did happen. And it's the second arrow, right? So the first hour is the painful thing. The second hour is the suffering that we put upon ourselves based on how we frame that painful thing. So, I mean, I look at the experiences in my young life. I lost my dad at 12.

I then was a fatherless teenager, like just went from this youngest of five kids, stable life to just like, rawr, you know, then my mom went back to work and school. I was just like, what is happening? Right. And just trying to find my way and make my father proud. He told me, make me proud before he died.

And so I'm driven to make my dead father proud, while I'm also dealing with the screaming going on in my soul and looking for father figures in my life. And then I had a coach who I trusted in that role, who then violated that trust. And I'm like coach who I trusted in that role, who then violated that trust. And I'm like a naive teenager. And now, I'm being sexually abused by someone who I trusted like a father.

It just was like, what is going on? But I just knew there was something inside me, even as I was suffering through this, was like, I gotta get out of here. And I'm not gonna let this hold me down or hold me back. I'm just not. And with the tools I had at the time, which were not many,

but there were enough to be like, I gotta geographically get out of here and I've gotta find a path that I don't sabotage myself in the midst of all the volatility I'm dealing with. So I went off to the Air Force Academy in part to serve and not pay back in student loans and debt, you pay back in service, but I didn't know what I was doing.

It just was a direction of help me move forward in my life by giving me some purpose. I wouldn't use these words at the time. Get me away from this predator and just like help contain this volatile energy I have into something positive. And I think back now, I didn't want to be a fighter pilot, I wanted to be a doctor, I was motion sick as a kid. And when I got there, I found out it was against the law for women to be fighter pilot, against

the law. And I was like, what? It was the first time I was told I couldn't do something because I was a girl, and it just pissed me off. So I took this rebellious spirit that I had raging, and I was like, well, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Don't tell me I can't fly fighter jets because I have ovaries. And I just like set that vision,

like I was going to be a fighter pilot. Like I'm gonna make it happen. Had I not been abused by my coach, I don't think I would have had the fortitude to say, don't hold me down and hold me back cause I'm a girl. Yeah. So I wouldn't have used these words at the time,

but I look at those experiences like they happened for me, not to me. Yeah. It's the obstacle is the way, right? The very hard things that I went through, not only could they have crushed me and almost did, but I made a decision. They're not going to crush me.

And I allowed them to propel me into my path and my purpose in a positive way. Yeah, when the Stokes are talking about the idea of the obstacle is the way, they're not saying that this horrible, unfair, you know, undeserved thing that happened to you is wonderful. Yes, exactly. They're saying that it's shaping

and changing you in some way. And that you don't know what it's going to do to you but you don't necessarily control that it happened or how it happened, but you can control how it changes you. Does it change you for the better or for the worse? And does it make you go in a positive direction or a negative?

You control what you do after. Yes, exactly. And we know when we look at our own lives that most of the things that happened that we didn't want to happen, that we're fighting as they happen, by and large have a positive impact on us. That later we have gratitude for them

or appreciation for them or just perspective about them. And yet, as they're happening, we're doing nothing but fighting them and fearing what they're gonna mean. And so I think part of the idea of the obstacle is the way, again, it's not that you're this superhuman who has the ability to transform everything into some magical positive,

but it's just saying as it's happening or shortly after it's happening, instead of torturing yourself and fighting it and fearing it, just to step back a little bit and to say, I'm gonna see where this goes. Exactly. And over time, ensuring that the negative things associated with that, whether it's fears or anger or unforgiveness,

whatever it is you went through, like those are the things that hold you back in the present. And so many people, I use flying analogies for a lot of what I teach. And when you're flying, you wanna be as aerodynamically as slick as possible, right? You're not coming in with your gear down and your speed breaks out when you're doing a bombing run

because it takes up fuel and it slows you down. It's called drag on the airplane. So, you know, I tell people drop the drag. Like what's the drag that's holding you down right now that's taking up fuel and slowing you down. And it's often unforgiveness or anger. I mean, the number of people I meet, I'm sure you know a lot of them,

who spend their whole lives angry at some parent or person in their life who hurt them or never measured up, but it's not serving you to hang on to that anger. Bitterness is the poison pill you swallow expecting the other person to die. Forgiveness is not about them, it's, you know, bitterness is the poison pill you swallow expecting the other person to die. Forgiveness is not about them, it's about you. So coming to that place where you free your spirit

from this drag of, you know, deep anger or regret, you know, based on our own, whatever that is, like you've got gotta let it go. It's slowing you down and holding you back. I was talking to a therapist about this once and they were talking about, you have these people in your life that betrayed you or hurt you or weren't what you needed

and you think about it all the time and it frustrates you, it pains you, you can kind of have these imaginary conversations with them. And then he was like, the problem is they're not thinking about you at all. Yes, I say that all the time. So you have the drag. Yes.

And they're just going about their lives because that's who they are. That's what allows them to do these things to people. And so yeah, you're allowing this thing that happened to you in the past to slow you down in the present. And you're- Torture you. You're the one, the victim of the thing is the one who's carrying the baggage from it,

not the perpetrator. And you gotta find a way through, I think, work some of these philosophical exercises to give that back to the person. Be like, you carry it, right? Or like, this is on you. I didn't do anything wrong. I was a kid, right? Like, you were supposed to do X, Y, right? Or like, this is on you. I didn't do anything wrong. I was a kid, right?

Like you were supposed to do X, Y, and Z for me and you didn't, or someone steals from you, whatever it is. They should carry the guilt and the shame and the weight of it, not you. Because then yeah, you're adding insult. No, I say that all the time. Like they're not thinking about me right now. Why am I thinking about them?

Like, why am I letting this person to ruin my day today? They already ruined one day. Why am I letting them rob me of my present? Do you have resentment and frustration? I can't imagine becoming a female fighter pilot when you became a female fighter pilot. It was easy. I imagine there were a female fighter pilot when you became a female fighter pilot was easy. I imagine there were a lot of people

who treated you very shitty. How, I mean, getting through that is one thing, but then not letting it shape how you exist in the present and see people in the present, that must be hard. It was hard. At the time, I really struggled with it and I had to learn some skills in order to not have it deeply impact me.

It just was, there's so many people who were so hostile towards us and there can be kind of this like sheep mentality where I think, you know, 80, 90% of them are actually really good people, good husbands, good fathers, they would want their daughters to be able to be whatever they wanted to be. And there are a couple of advocates,

just like in any group of humanity. And then you've just got some assholes. And then the sheep stay silent while the assholes, you know, kind of allow that, you know, that environment. And it was just, it would eat me up at times, but I had to learn the skills that if I'm tossing and turning at night, because I'm pissed off about how somebody, you know, denigrated me or whatever, then I'm not going to get a good night's sleep, then I'm going to go fly tomorrow, I'm not going to perform well, and then I'm actually going to bring about the very thing that they say, that, you know, girls can't do that, women can't do this. Which by the way, is why they were saying the things to you in the first place, right?

They were trying to bounce you out. Trying to mess with me. And so it gets back to that whole, they're not thinking about me right now. Like, why am I letting them ruin my sleep? The best thing I can do is be rested and ready. And also you're gonna make mistakes in the jet, any student does, so you just have to learn

how to develop thick skin without losing your humanity is the way I would describe it. And I had to learn those skills in that timeframe, and I did it very imperfectly. There were times with a few beers in me at the officers club that I let a lot, some of that come out on some people, as I've got some funny stories about that.

But I had to find the skills for me to be able to serve in my calling, not let them rob me of it mentally. Or again, if I was sleep deprived, because I'm focusing on how unfair people are being to me, the best thing I could do is just fly the jet well and beat them at the bombing range. So that took studying and focusing and chair flying

and doing everything to make sure I was ready to excel. So yeah, it wasn't easy and it was some very lonely times. I remember early on when I went into my first training, I was ignored when I walked into the squadron. Right. And my first operational squadron commander turned his back on me when I went to introduce myself to him.

I was like, okay, this is my commander. I mean, he sets the culture for the whole squadron. They've never had a woman before. Sure. I found out later, he brought the whole squadron. They've never had a woman before. Sure. I found out later, he brought the whole squadron together. And, you know, as a leader and a former commander myself, what he should have done is said, we have a new member of our squadron

who's been through the same training as all of you. We're going to combat together. Our lives are in each other's hands. I expect everybody to treat this person with the same professionalism and honor and dignity you in each other's hands. I expect everybody to treat this person with the same professionalism and honor and dignity you treat each other with and to welcome them into our family. Instead, he said, the worst possible thing is about to

happen to our squadron. After a long legacy of brotherhood, we're about to have a woman show up. And so he set kind of license for, you know, the assholes to be hostile. He eventually moved on. But I remember I was getting up in the morning, just getting on my knees,

like, God, give me the strength to get through today, to focus on what I can do right now, to become the best fighter pilot I can be, and prove that the plane doesn't care if you have ovaries or not. You know, this bigger mission, but the best thing I could do is fly my instrument pattern today with excellence, not worry about all of humanity and

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You can binge all episodes of The Last City right now, ad free on Wondery+. Get started with your free trial at Wondery.com slash plus. You know, it's interesting, one of the early stoic teachers, his name was Mussonius Rufus, and he has this essay about whether men and women should both be taught philosophy.

So this is about 2000 years ago. And he goes, of course women should be taught philosophy. He says, you don't care what gender your dog is. You don't care what gender the horse is. You just care whether it can run fast. Whether it can hunt well, right? Exactly. And so that expression that a play doesn't care whether you have ovaries or not, whether it can hunt well, right? Exactly. And so that expression that a plane doesn't care

whether you have ovaries or not is a good one, right? It's weird our preoccupation with these sort of distinctions or differences when the reality is, a bunch of people have said this, the biggest difference is between people and other people, not between one gender and another gender, or one race and other people, right, not between one gender and another gender or one race and another race, right? What should really matter is can the person

do the job or not? And the reality is most people can't do the job. So to single out one constituency as being predisposed to not be able to do the job is nonsense because most people can't fucking do it. Exactly, and it was fascinating. You're being prejudiced on the wrong thing. Right, right.

And it was fascinating to watch the whole debate when they were considering opening up fighters to women. Our chief of staff of the Air Force, the four star general in charge of our Air Force testified before Congress repeatedly that he was against it. He's responsible for making sure we have the best Air Force, yet 50% of the population he's going to just summarily

dismiss as having any capability. And they asked him, I'm paraphrasing, but so you would rather pick a less qualified man over a more qualified woman for those cockpits? And he said, yes, I would. It's just the way I feel. And so like we hated this guy. And then eventually the secretary I feel. And so, like we hated this guy. Yeah, sure.

And, you know, then eventually the secretary, they changed the law, they changed the policy. I'm standing, I'll send you the picture. I'm standing at a press conference with this guy. Yeah. And two of the other gals who were selected to go first. And they put us through all this media training, you know, watch your body language, but it was live.

And I took my little rebellious spirit and I'm looking at this guy with side eyes like, I can't stand this guy, right? He's setting this tone, but now he's announcing like, women are, here are our amazing three zoo animals, these three women are gonna be the pioneers. But it was irrational and I found in my experience, which is vast, that it often came from insecurity, honestly.

It's, you know, like if this is a boys club and somehow my manhood is attached to me being this fighter pilot and a girl beats me at the bombing range, like what does that mean? Sure. So I try to have more compassion on them as I grew older that they're coming to find security.

I think that's at the core of it. And you see it, I mean, even today people are, oh, it's the feminization of this or whatever. It's like, I have no doubts in my ability to adjust and adapt and thrive in any environment. So I don't have a lot of opinions about what the environment should be or what the right way to think.

And the idea that the way it's always been is the best way is of course nonsense. So I just go, well, it is what it is and I'll figure out how to work in that environment. But I think a lot of people deep down, especially as you get older or you start to believe that you can't change anymore. And instead of focusing on how you're gonna thrive

in the environment that you're in, legally, culturally, politically, you have to expend your energy keeping things the way that they are, because you know deep down, you are threatened by a new or a different environment. Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I mean, back to the whole one, so no women could do this, therefore all men can.

I used to joke, they would talk about physical strength that you need. They're like, okay, so for whatever job in the military, not even flying fighters, there's physical strength required. So are you saying Justin Bieber is qualified and Serena Williams is not? How about we set standards and they're not just physical,

they're aptitude, they're intellectual, there's values and courage and other attributes that really matter in combat and make sure that we pick the best man for the job, even if she's a woman. Yeah, I mean, look, there's obviously physical components to being a firefighter, but you're not like lifting heavy rocks all day. No, I-

Like it's primarily a mental pursuit, right? It's about coordination and it's about experience. It's about learning. It's about working with others. It's communication. It's all these other skills that ultimately have very little to do with each other. Yeah, and you need physical stamina

and physical strength to sustain the G-forces. You sometimes would lose several pounds of water just in the middle of a mission. One of my friends described it once when I was at a career day with him. He said, it's like being a fighter pilot is like doing long division in the middle of a wrestling match. And so you do need physical strength, but core strength matters, being able to tighten up your muscles in order to keep the blood flow going.

And you have to have stamina. Right. in order to keep the blood flow going and you have to have stamina. You know, again, I just run the Hawaii Ironman Triathlon before this and people were like, you can't do this. I'm like, can you just give us a chance? Give us a chance. And it's not like we don't have a pretty obvious example of women having incredible stamina and high pain tolerance.

You know what I mean? It's preposterous. And ironically for pulling Gs, the shorter you are, the better. incredible stamina and high pain tolerance. Yes, yes. You know what I mean? It's preposterous. And ironically for pulling Gs, the shorter you are, the better. Now I had challenges because I was a little bit too short for the cockpit fitting so I had to go through a whole process.

Other obstacles and barriers for me to get into pilot training. So, but the taller you are, it's all about pumping blood from your heart to your head with pressure. The taller you are, the's all about pumping blood from your heart to your head with pressure. The taller you are, the more distance you have to pump. So taller, mostly guys, although there are taller women, have a bigger challenge to solve to not pass out

under G-forces than somebody who's shorter. It's funny though, so the Stoics have this, on the one hand, this sort of progressive view of gender, and then of course, the rest of the stoic writings are like, don't be womanly, or you know, all sorts of casual sexism and misogyny. And by and large, all the stoics that we know about were men, because that's what history favors.

But I've always sort of taken that to go, well, isn't the real stoicism, like wouldn't a real stoic be the person who was going through all the same things, but they didn't need credit for it, they didn't make it all about them. They were also putting up with the fact that they were being underestimated

and condescended to and judged. And so there's this almost, there's almost this like fragility admitted in the fact that we had to make history all about dudes and how awesome they were. Do you know what I mean? Robert Caro, this amazing biographer of Lyndon Johnson, he was talking about what life must have been like

in the 1800s in the United States. And he was talking about how, you know, all we talk about are the cowboys. And he's just like, but he's like, what about, you know, the woman carrying water from the well after giving birth, right? He's like, that's who was actually the tough motherfucker. You know, is like, and then she wasn't also making up myths

about how amazing and strong she was, you know what I mean? Right, right, she was just doing it. Exactly. She was just like, doing what needed to be done, didn't have to get credit for it. Yeah, totally. I mean. Or like the assassination of Julius Caesar, right? All we talk about is Brutus, who for it. Yeah, totally. Or like the assassination of Julia Caesar, right?

All we talk about is Brutus who does it. But Brutus's wife is named Portia and she's Cato's daughter, the other famous stuff. And so she's the one that actually is, like her husband is afraid he can't do it, he's not sure, but she's the one, she's like, you gotta do this, right? But again, we celebrate the dude

and not the other person behind the whole. The story, this is in Shakespeare's play, but it's also in Plutarch, but he's thinking about doing it, but he doesn't wanna tell his wife. And she finds out that he's thinking about it. And she realizes that he doesn't want to tell his wife. And she finds out that he's thinking about it. And she realizes that he doesn't want to tell her because he's afraid she would break under torture, right? So she stabs herself in the leg and then binds the wound

and then just sort of endures it all. And she's trying to prove to him, like, look, I can take pain better than you can, right? Which again is like, what's so funny about this sort of sexism or the assumptions that we make is how rarely they're based on anything, even remotely scientific, anecdotal or historical. It's just nonsense.

Exactly. I mean, I bet you met some really tough women and some really not so tough dudes who were all fighter pilots. Exactly, or in all walks of life or any parts of the military, it comes down to the person. I mean, I have a saying, grow a pair of ovaries

just to try and turn. What's the Stoic saying about the world is watching to see if you have cojones? I've heard you quote that before. Yeah, yeah, that's in Carmen McCarthy's All the Pretty Horses, I think. Yeah, he says the world wants to know. Wants to know.

The world wants to know if you have ovaries, right? Yes, sure. There's a little play on that. Was there a part of you though that like you thought, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna prove them all wrong, and they're gonna accept me. And was it anticlimactic or disappointing when you did it and they didn't go, we were wrong?

I don't think I was focused on that, but for sure, my core purpose for becoming a fighter pilot was to prove them wrong. It's just because they told me I couldn't and that girls couldn't that motivated me to say that's exactly what I'm going to do. And it took almost 10 years, right? From the day I put the dream in my heart

to the day it came true was almost a decade. And so I didn't have a chip on my shoulder. I just was continuing to excel. I looked for opportunities to keep the door open for me. And I was just, I was going to be a fighter pilot. There was no, I didn't hope I was going to be a fighter pilot. I didn't dream it. I declared it and I decided it.

And I wasn't sure how, but I declared it was going to happen. And 10 years later, it did. And sure, I knew, I mean, I was in the ninth class with women at the Air Force Academy. I knew it wasn't going to be easy, but somebody had to go. And I'd rather it be me than being on the sidelines watching someone else.

That's just kind of the way I made. I'd rather be in the arena. And so, yeah, I mean, over time, what I found was in your squadron, on your team, once you proved your capabilities, there was a brotherhood and sisterhood there that was very tight. But then you would still deal with people

who never knew you, never met you, who were threatened by you, especially as we moved up in the ranks. So to be a wingman means that the flight lead's in charge of the flight, you're the wingman, you stay in position, you do what you're told, flight lead coordinates everything, and then your job is, when it's time, deliver bombs, guns, missiles, whatever it is, where you're told with precision,

be in position, call out threats, you're not in charge. But then upgrading to be a flight lead and telling others what to do, and then later to be an instructor pilot and an evaluator and a commander, people on the outside who didn't get those opportunities, of course, would feel threatened and then the denigration would happen through a variety of different means. So I just had to like

do the best I could to block it out. Right. While hanging on to the closeness I had in the, you know, combat, you know, tested relationships of those that were in my unit were in the same patch. Yeah, I'm just curious. I found that sort of trying to prove people wrong, trying to shove it in their faces, right? Trying to make them pay. It's very powerful fuel, but it's volatile. It can blow up all over you.

And then it tends not to be so satisfying when you get the thing. Cause it never does what you wanted it to do for you. Yeah, but I saw, so I was the only woman in my squad room for a while, but then we had another female show up and I saw how accepted she was pretty quickly. And I just was, I don't know,

I could exhale a little bit and be like, oh, I think we've arrived. Of course, then I was given more opportunities to move up and the integration continued, but it allowed me to be like, we're making progress. One person at a time, right? One moment at a time. And I'm just here to do what I believe I was called to do.

And I can't worry about everybody else's attitudes. You know, I'm not the attitude police here. I just need to do my job and not let them rob me of my calling. There was a time where, this was after, maybe we can talk about it later, but I took on the Pentagon for an eight year battle for how our women were treated in Saudi Arabia.

Right. I had no idea what that was going to entail when I stepped up to make that first decision. But again, a lot of denigration from that. And I almost missed the opportunity to become a squadron commander because I was tired of it. I was like, I don't need to go into a high school locker room again and prove that I belong.

I've already done that. And I almost, out of my weariness, didn't allow myself to be open to this amazing leadership opportunity to be a commander. So I had to adjust myself in the midst of that to get to the core of like, this is where I belong, this is what I'm doing, this is an amazing opportunity for me

and I can shape the culture as a leader and the next generation in this position. And so I'm gonna take this role on and not let others stop me. Yeah, because they really can't stop you, but they can make you quit. They can make me stop myself. Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

They can suck the joy out of it for you. They can make you so frustrated that you retire early. Yes. Right? Like, at a certain point, all there really is is that sort of that form of psychological warfare, which is remarkably successful against all movements and changes. Very powerful.

They just wanna make you- Suck the will out of you. Yeah, exactly. Just wanna make you give up. Yeah, and they almost did. But they didn't. Did you find that over time minds changed? Like once people had sort of personal exposure to it?

For sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And just the next generation coming along. I mean, a sociologist would have a field day with it. I've always was fascinated how, even in my generation, people would come from being okay if you know there was a girl who was the valedictorian of their high school class or the

president of the class was no problem but somehow when we got into this military environment it was a weird shift that would happen inside people. I don't think it was on purpose. Yeah. That something was happening in that in the culture there that should be more deeply studied. But yeah, I definitely think now, even though there's still a very small percentage of female fighter pilots, you have to have the desire and the capability and it has to be available to you.

All Venn diagram overlap is pretty narrow, but it's become so much more normalized now that there's often usually more than one woman in a squadron I think these days. It takes generations right because you think about you think about the instructors that you had which was not that long ago. They were from the previous era, their instructors were the previous era, and it doesn't take many eras to go back to black people couldn't fly, Jews, like just the level of discrimination that was endemic

in each era, we've been slowly sort of battling that back, but people are informed by the time that they grew up. So even if they're progressive or open-minded in one capacity, that's as far maybe as they're willing to go. And I found as soon as somebody became a father to a daughter, as long as they didn't disassociate the two issues, right?

Like I want my daughter to have every opportunity to be whatever she wants, but I'm still somehow think you shouldn't be here, is always a funny dynamic. But I definitely saw evolving happen as people became fathers to daughters. Yeah, I hear that a lot. That always struck me as such a strange thing

to have open your mind. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Until I'm biologically related to one. Exactly. Well, we used to also joke that like, they just, they would, you know, a lot of guys would be like, okay, I still don't think women should be doing this,

but you're the exception. And somehow that would make you feel good. Like, no, your bias needs to be shattered. Right. You need to, you can't, because the cognitive dissonance, I joke that part of my purpose in life is to create cognitive dissonance in people, but the cognitive dissonance, like something has to give.

You can't believe this and this, and then somehow try to hold onto both of them. So if you have proof of something different than your core belief, then be open to shattering your beliefs. There is, I think I was reading, I'm trying to remember who I was reading, might've been in a Wayne Dyer book recently

about what do we believe and what do we know. Yeah. And the things that we believe, if we're not willing to hold them with an open hand because we believe them because that's what society believes, that's what our parents believe, that's what somebody else said, that's what we read a book about.

But if we really don't know, like know from experience, know from a divine knowing, like we know something, be willing to hold those beliefs with an open hand. That's not easy to do, though. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show. We appreciate it.

I'll see you next episode. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. The early 2000s was a breeding ground for bad reality competition series. From shows like Kid Nation, CBS's weird Lord of the Flies-style social experiment that took 40 kids to live by themselves in a ghost town, to The Swan, a horrifying concept where women spent months undergoing a physical transformation and then were made to compete in a beauty pageant.

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