The Daily Stoic - Pop Star Camila Cabello On Stoicism, Creativity and Success

Episode Date: December 5, 2020

On today’s episode, Ryan talks with Camila Cabello on training your mind to work for you, finding courage and happiness in your career, how she values stillness and the idea of memento mori, and more.Camila Cabello is one of the biggest stars in the music industry today. Cabello’s 2018 debut album, Camila, reached the top of the Billboard 200 chart and was certified platinum. Cabello has billions of streams on digital music platforms and has won multiple awards, including two Latin Grammy Awards, and has received three Grammy Award nominations. She will be playing the lead role in the 2021 adaptation of Cinderella.This episode is brought to you by GiveWell, the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. GiveWell’s team of researchers works countless hours to determine which charities make the most effective dollar-for-dollar contributions to the causes they support. Since 2010, GiveWell has helped over 50,000 donors donate over 500 million dollars to the most effective charities, leading to over 75,000 lives saved and millions more improved. Visit GiveWell.org/stoic and your first donation will be matched up to 100 dollars.This episode is also brought to you by Amazon Music. one of the things that makes this time of year truly wonderful is the music—and my family’s getting its holiday music fix thanks to Amazon Music. Whether it’s the Charlie Brown Christmas album or Mariah Carey, Amazon Music has something for any holiday occasion. For a limited time, new subscribers can get three months of Amazon Music Unlimited, absolutely free, by visiting Amazon.com/Ryan. Starts at $7.99/month after. New subscribers only. Terms apply. Offer expires 1/11/2021.This episode is also brought to you by Native. Native makes amazing, all-natural deodorants, and they have some great new holiday-themed scents to make this time of year more festive. Native is risk-free to try, too. Every product has free shipping within the US, and free 30 day returns and exchanges. Visit NativeDeo.com/stoic or use promo code STOIC at checkout to receive 20% off your first order—and be sure to order by 12/7 to receive everything by Christmas.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Camila Cabello:Homepage: https://www.camilacabello.com/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/camila_cabello/Twitter: https://twitter.com/Camila_CabelloFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/camilacabello/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/camilacabelloSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four who live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy

in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to work or to get the kids to school. When we have the time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with our journals and to prepare for what the future will bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both

savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. My guest today needs almost no introduction. Camila Cabello, multi-platin' a musician, one of the biggest pop stars in the world, billions of streams across all the streaming platforms. You've heard her on the radio a million times. She's great, and you might not know

that she is a fan of Stoic philosophy. I found this out when I got a message from someone on Instagram, they said, how dare you not acknowledge what Camila Cabejo said about you on Instagram. And I said, what are you talking about? And I looked and Camila had posted a page from the Daily Stoke and we ended up connecting,

which was so cool. And we've become, I would like to say friends, we've tech shared some book recommendations and gone back and forth. And I said, hey, do you want to do the podcast? Thinking that she probably has way, way better things to do. And I'm sure a million requests to be on a million platforms. But she said, yes, which was awesome.

And so we had a great conversation. I'm coming to you from Arizona, visiting some family. You did a great conversation over Zoom. Unfortunately, it couldn't be in person. But here is my interview with Camila Cabello. We should thank Sean Mendes, her boyfriend, for doing tech support. We had some tech issues. So if it drops for a minute and then comes back, you'll understand why. But here's my interview.

And I think you will enjoy these philosophical perspectives from someone who has seen the world, who is literally Cinderella, she's playing Cinderella in a new Sony Pictures movie, someone who's experiencing adversity and difficulty just like the rest of us. What do you do when your business is performing in front of large groups of people and traveling, and suddenly you can't do that anymore,

and you might not be able to do that for six months to another year. What do you do when life forces you to reconsider what you want your lifestyle to look like? What you want your routines to look like? What you want your focus and priorities to look like? When Marx really says no role is so well suited to philosophy as the one we're in right now, he meant that about his life as an emperor, but it also applies to being a pop star, being an actress, being a girl in her 20s, being a guy in his 30s, being a father, being single, being an

artist, being an entrepreneur, being whatever you are, we can all apply philosophy. In fact, we should be applying this philosophy because it makes us better, as the Stoic say, nothing prevents us from operating always with courage, justice, moderation, and wisdom. Those are the themes of my interview with Camilla Cabello. Enjoy. I'm so excited. I had my wife give me a haircut just for this. Oh, you look great.

It's weird times. I wish we could do this in person, but of course, here we are. But here we are. What time is it where you are? It is nine o'clock where I am. Oh nice. Do you get up at like three o'clock in the morning? We, I got up at I think six a.m. this morning, but that's because we have kids. And so we don't have any choice about when we wake up. Well, I kind of know what you mean more now because we just got a puppy. And Sean, I told him I was like,

we have, because he's like nine weeks old, he has to be taken out. Like we have an alarm on our phone for like two a.m. And then in four hours for six a.m. And Sean, I was like, can you just, he like did all the, all the, the, the P and push-ups last night. But and then tonight, I'm gonna do all the P and P shifts.

So I, I'm one step closer to knowing what having kids are like. And let me tell you, can I swear on this? Yeah, of course. I respect the shit out of you parents because we have a puppy and shit's been hard. Not hard, but like, you know, it's a lot of work. No, it is, it is. I think what's good, you know, it's a lot of work. No, it is. I think what's good about dogs and then what's good about kids is that it's sort of forced.

You can get very used to sort of getting your way and doing things only when you want to do them. And then the nice thing about these sort of responsibilities is that they really don't care at all what you want, what you prefer. It's just sort of inarguable reality. Totally. And you just like, I have to be present. It just like forces you to be present.

And also to like laugh and be patient at situation, like instead of be like so many times like in the past few days, we're like, no! Because he'll like, you know, eat another dog's food or he'll chew something up. And it just like makes you really, really patient. Plus he's cute as fuck. You know, of course, of course.

It's a golden retriever. What's the name? His name's Tarzan. Tarzan, very nice. It's funny because when we first got him, he was like, he was so like, Dossile and Kong were like, oh, we're gonna pick that one.

And then five days later, he's just become like a Tasmanian devil. And Sean and I were like, oh, we're gonna pick that one. And then five days later, he's just become like a Tasmanian devil and Sean and I were like this dogs of Genius like he just like made us believe he was this Calm like Daucile dog and now he's like Well, if you think about what dogs like I we don't really realize how manipulative dogs are because Dogs were wild animals and we I think for a long time people thought that we domesticated dogs, but it's really more like dogs domesticated themselves next to us. So like dogs basically are just really good at tricking humans into taking care of them,

which is a really incredible feat. Well, have you ever watched the dog whisper and read Caesar Milan? I mean, Caesar Milan is, I feel like he's a low-key stoic. Like, you know, even if, I don't know if he, like, if he says that, but the way that he teaches, like we've been reading his book, how to raise the perfect dog. That's like what Sean and I are reading list. But a lot of what he teaches, like educating a dog,

like he calls it like being a pack leader. And you know, always kind of like, his thing is like your dog is always gonna take on your energy. So if you have like, frantic, anxious energy, like the dog will pick up on that and like always being like kind of common assertive. So the dog, dog like trust you.

And it's like it's really really interesting because it makes you realize how much we are really like how much we truly are all animals. Like he you know he talks about only rewarding your dog with affection when he does something that you do like and when he doesn't, like when they're over excited, just like don't acknowledge them, as opposed to just treating them like they're human children and constantly being like, hey, I don't know, it's just like really interesting. Like the dog psychology part of it is really interesting.

I did a show in New York one time, like an interview and he was the guest before me and I got to meet him for like five minutes and you can really, there are these people that have like a kind of energy that you just, it's like magical. It sounds made up. Like how could energy be this thing

that is like projected or felt? And then you watch it on TV and you're like, how could you just be like sort of magically calming these dogs? And then you experience it and you're like, oh, this is a real thing. And it's a. So, you're a pretty person.

Yeah, it's nuts. Well, I do think like, I mean, I think the more I get older, the more I'm realizing how much, I mean, we are all energy. And so much of, he talks about how, you know, with dogs, it's like, no matter how much you say, no, stop. It's not your words. They don't communicate in that human language part.

It's like your body language and your energy. And it's like, so much of that is true with humans too. Like, no matter what someone says, it's like, you can really feel like we are energy. Like, even if you're not consciously picking up on that, it's like that's always what's underneath everything. Well, what I like about Caesar Milan is this idea that you could really be a master of anything. So like he's like that, you know, let's say the best person in the world at that weird dog energy thing. And I was thinking, I thought about him a couple, a couple years ago, when we first started sending my kid, my son, who doesn't do it anymore because the pandemic, where we

started sending them to daycare. And like, when you have a kid, it's like, it's difficult to put them down for a nap, right? They don't want a nap. They run around like crazy. And then it was thinking that like these two women who were running the daycare, one was from Cuba and the other was from Guatemala or something. And you're like, these two women put down 15 toddlers at the same time every day. I'm like, I can't even do one. And it's totally, because I've watched them do it,

when it's totally an energy thing. Yeah. 100%. Totally. And then it makes you like, when Caesar talks about that, like keeping a calm, assertive energy for your dogs all the time, or especially when you want to discipline them, it makes you practice that muscle more.

Sure. And it's like actually the more that I, this is what I've been like really focusing on, like, especially in the past year, is how to, like, how much who we are is just, like, trained behaviors. And, like, you can, you know, you can train an undisciplined dog. He could literally be a different dog just from how you train them and how you respond to their behaviors.

And it's, like, the same with human beings. It's the same with your own brain. Like, you're all, I feel like my own brain is a crazy puppy dog. But it's, like, really empowering. I feel like that whole psychology of like how you respond to things changes the things themselves. Like I've become really obsessed with just like that mastery of like yourself and that mastery of your mind

and your emotions. And it just like I feel like it's more emphasized by things that I like by the Caesar thing. I'm like, oh, it's there too. Like how everything is what happens. And then your response to it. Well, have you noticed the last 70 months from the pandemic?

Have you noticed like what I've noticed is that like as you turn down the outside world, so you're not doing this much stuff. You're not as busy, you don't have as much going on, it sort of reveals to you, like my anxiety became more apparent to me, it became much more obvious that I have anxiety

because it wasn't drowned out in other things, you know what I mean? And so I'm just curious, have you started to get in touch with energy in your own life? I mean, I was kind of fucked before the pandemic started. I feel like my anxiety was like at an all-time high before COVID happened. I was like, and I was kind of working through it. I was filming a movie.

My album had just come out. I was doing promo, but I was like at the same time. It was just like, I think that's why I really took in the last year like my own healing and meditation, and like all of these, and exercise and nutrition, all these things super seriously, because I was, I was doing these things. I was like doing promo and filming, but I was just suffering so much because of my state of mind. And I think I had, I had suffered from anxiety like from years before. Like, I think like it, but it really hit its climax because I don't think I paid enough attention to it. And I was just working through it, working through it, working through

it. And I think when over the last seven months that I was able to stop in the beginning, it was my anxiety, specifically because I had time to be aware of my thoughts and what I was thinking and my thought process is, as opposed to, I gotta go perform, fuck everything I'm feeling because I gotta do a good job, which is kind of what I did before, I was just kind of like override all of my, you know, just my, my internal struggles

because I was like, I got to go on stage in 10 minutes. I can't be thinking about this, you know. And it just really gave me time to be able to be in the awareness of what thoughts were causing me suffering and anxiety and feel it and go through it because honestly because I had the time and I hadn't really had the time to really look at what was going on inside myself for like seven years. You know, I was just constantly, I felt like my life was revolving around how to do a good job in my next performance, how to do a good job

in my next writing session, whatever. And it's like, it feels like that's like the short-term solution, but it's not the long-term solution because you're actually sacrificing your authenticity and your truth to just do a good job as opposed to be who you are, how you are. Well, what I found too is that because you're good at what you do, so in your case, it's singing for me,

it's writing, is that the writing or the work is always as difficult as it is and unpredictable as it is, you have way more control over that than other things. So you can kind of channel all those energy, all that energy towards whatever you're supposed to be doing, like putting on a show or for me, it's like, I know I can go sit at my computer and stuff that's valuable will come out of it,

but like dealing with my feelings or dealing with, you know, the more complicated stuff is much less predictable. And so you kind of end up sort of focusing on work at the expense of everything else. Totally. And it's scary. It can feel scary to be with your thoughts and feelings because it is like, that's also why I mean, I feel like honestly, stoicism and meditation have helped me the most in the past year. Like both of those things, like the kind of, I feel like stoicism is kind of like the cognitive reframing of stuff, which is so important because when I, the tools that I get from meditation,

not even meditation really, mindfulness is the awareness of what my thought processes are. And I'm like, no wonder I have fucking anxiety because look how I'm thinking about this situation. And then, soicism gives me the tools to be like, well, there's no use in thinking and obsessing about that because I can't control what's going to happen in the future. I can't control when the performance is tomorrow. There's no amount of thinking today that's gonna, if anything, it's not useful. But I found that the most important thing and the thing that really has given me

more peace most importantly, because I think as I'm getting older, I'm like, I feel like peace is even better than moments of joy sometimes. It's just so much better. What's giving me more and more peace and more like authenticity when I do my work and when I write and when I do go to work on my craft is like that mental training.

I think it's so huge. And I'm like honestly pissed that I didn't get taught those tools in school because I'm like what the fuck? Like I feel like I had to search and search and search and go through so much suffering. Like I don't know what's been your experience with anxiety, but like it was fucked. Like it sucks, like feeling anxious.

Like it sucks. And I feel like I was like feeling anxious more than not, like eight, eight months ago, you know? And it's like, it's so invaluable to have tools. Like, you know, you're not your thoughts. You're the observer of your thoughts. Or, oh, how can I reframe this situation so I don't stress about it or whatever or breathing? Like, all of these things, like, I feel like have are changing my experience of life. And it's like, that's your mind is your life.

Do you feel like you can sort of gut, gut it out? Like you can perform well, anxious, you know, you can write anxious, but then it's sort of realizing like, oh, actually when you're doing it from a place of stillness or peace or, you know, when you're, when you're not being driven by your thoughts, it's just at like a whole other level. Definitely. I mean, I think like there's been so many times where I remember like specifically a couple times, which is it was last year really. There was, it was really a span of like seven months where I feel like I was really struggling with anxiety and like, I've talked about this openly before,

like six months, it was just like at a peak and I had two performances that I specifically remember. AMAs and SNL and like, I finished SNL and my team was like, my manager was like, that's the best performance you've ever done because it does feel like in performance, I can channel, we were talking about energy. It's like anxious energy or suffering or pain is a lot of energy.

So it felt like I could really channel it and almost put all of that energy into every word or every movement. It's like when Beyoncé said before, nerves are actually a good thing, because it's energy, and it suddenly, if you were hitting a move like this, that energy makes you hit it like this, because there's so much kind of coming out, but I do think that it's not a good trade-off,

because especially, for example, in something like writing, when it is coming from a place of stillness and peace, like I've seen in the past few months, even like writing from my next project now, it's like, it's so much more authentic, it's so much more truthful, and I'm so much more proud of it because it's not coming from a place of that day trying to get a certain outcome or trying to impress the other person that's in the room or really thinking about anything in the future. Like what's come from me kind of training myself to be present and just be truthful. And it coming from a place of stillness, I think it's so much better, so much more rewarding.

And honestly, fuck the result of the performance. It's like you actually end up, your life changes. Like you're able to make connections with people because your mind isn't, you're not being like, your life isn't being drowned out by the noise of your mind. Like there's just, it's so worth it to, I feel like invest in that mental training because I think a lot of times people are like,

look at it, it was almost like, I don't have time to do that because I have to go do my work and I have to do all of these things. But it's like investing in yourself and in kind of like training your mind to work for you as opposed to be this thing that actually stops you from being your best self and like blocking you.

It's like it's so worth it. And it makes everything else better, you know? I know exactly what you mean. It's weird to me talking to you because like, I think you're the first guest that I've had that I'm older then. I'm so used to being the young person because that's sort of like you, my career started very early. So all the authors that I've known or managers and agents,

everyone's older. But I remember when I was, I had this sort of epiphany when I was about your age. It was realizing like, okay, so it's working for me like the anxiety, the intensity, the energy. I'm getting good results out of it, but it's not sustainable. Like, I don't want to do, I don't want to be in that sort of adrenalized state for the next like 30 years. Like, you're not going to survive that way. And so, it's sort of realizing like, you're not having any fun doing it? And if it's not coming from a place of stillness

and contentment, like, you're going to burn out or die if you keep going this way. 100%. Well, I think what happened to me right before pandemic was I did burn out. Like, that's what it felt like for me. I felt burnt out. I felt honestly, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore, but it wasn't doing this. It was the way that I was doing it. Right. It was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore.

It's so much anxiety, so much stress. I feel unhappy. I feel like my mental health, therefore, my physical health is suffering. I wasn't sleeping well. Like all of these, you know, I wasn't sleeping well. I felt like my nervous system was out of whack because I feel like it was just a habit for me to be in this kind of fight-of-flight state.

And what were you just saying before that? Well, just like how you can sustain this. Because I think what's interesting is like most singers in your position, it seems like they have a meltdown in their mid 30s, right? Like it doesn't seem to last. 100%. Well, I think that I would have.

I would have at some point, it would have been unsustainable. And I would have been like, I actually have to stop. I don't know when I'm going to come back and do this. But at this point, my health is suffering, and I have to stop. I don't know when I'm gonna come back and do this, but at this point, my health is suffering and I have to stop. And I was kind of forced to stop by everything that happened and it was really necessary time. Like it was necessary for me to kind of go through

really just like, I wrote this article about like for mental health awareness month about OCD and about anxiety and it's like, with anything, it's like with your physical health, if you break a leg, like, you got to heal the leg and nobody's like judging you for it. You just like, take some time and you, you know, you get a cast and you can judging you for it. You just take some time and you get a cast and you can't walk for five days because you've got to recover. And I think with mental health, it's different.

It's nothing's gonna happen if you just do nothing, but it is worth taking time to treat it. Even if it's like 10 minutes a day of doing exercise or doing something that you know that is good for your mental health or you know like Really, there's there's so many different things, but in the past eight months, I feel like I've like literally My life has changed like I'm like so thankful for it because I think that I would have spent

A lot of years being unhappy and at the same time this weird thing of just like not like just keeping going because you think that's what you're supposed to do. And yeah, I'm just like I'm so thankful for this time because I feel like I'm like more and more just the the boss of my own mind and the boss of my own life as opposed to feeling kind of like victimized by anxiety and and and and and mental health struggles like I feel like that was like constantly something that I had to overcome to do things. And now I kind of like did it the other way where I'm like I'm going to get to the root of this fucker so that I can, you know, so I can just like be free of it. And it's totally possible.

That's something Listoke's talk about, which is like, what good is success if the result is that you don't feel like you're in charge of your own mind or your own life? Like, how is that success? Exactly. And that's like not what this society, we as a society are taught. And actually so much of I feel like healing is being like, what of this is like what I actually want

and what of this is just like what everybody else is doing and I'm doing it because everybody else is doing it. Like that, you know, in silence is the key. Like that really resonated with me. Like what's your definite, and ego's enemy too, when it's like all of these questions about, like, what is success to you? Like, is success being famous and having these awards?

And I feel like it's especially a necessary teaching nowadays because I have like, you know, my little cousin who's like eight years old, and I'm like, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And she's like, I want to be TikTok famous. And I'm like, it's like these values of like, no, what's important is, you know, how content you are with your life,

like the level of gratitude that you experienced. The most importantly for me right now, like the connections that you have with your family and your friendships and your community and your purpose and your community and your purpose. I genuinely do feel like my purpose is in art. I don't think I actually, even though it's always been my passion, my favorite thing to do. I feel like in the past eight months, I really was like, oh no, this is like what I want to do. This is like what I what I want to do, you know, like this is like what I feel like my my

purposes and it's like not doing it for any outcome of like being famous or success or what people think of you, which it can subconsciously like I know I mean I can only speak for myself, but like even when you don't say that to yourself, like I've never been like, I want to be the most famous, I want to be number one, I've never said that, but I remember like reading ego is an enemy and being like, but then at the same time I go to do a writing session and I care so much about what these people in the room think of me, like I'm like so insecure and afraid and like that's ego too because I'm still not doing it for the right reasons. Like the the right reason is to tell my truth. That's it. Period. There's a great Marcus Realis quote. He says, we care about other we care about ourselves

more than other people. He says, but we care about other people's opinion more than our own. Right. I love that club. It's so true. Like you pour yourself into this thing, doing it the way that only you want to do it, you know, and then, and then all of a sudden, it comes out. And then what you're thinking is like, did other people say it's good or not? And sometimes you need a project. I did a book a few years ago, this book called Conspiracy, which I think is my best book,

but it sold the least well out of all of them. It didn't fail. It just didn't do maybe what it could have done. And what was really freeing about that experience was it totally decoupled, like, critical success and sales for me from what I know is good. And that's like, it was such a huge breakthrough. It was such a huge breakthrough for me when I saw like a couple of months ago I was like,

you know, I read it. I read obstacles the way like I think like two years ago and I was actually my for my second album. I read a friend of mine gave me that book and so I read it and it told I remember like reading it and then for the next like two months while I was reading it, like my writing sessions were like amazing because everything, even my own insecurity and my own like fear, I was kind of using it to fuel. I was doing that, that stoic teaching that I love so much, the more Fati, the taking everything and

even the bad stuff and loving that it happened, not just accepting it, but being like, oh, I'm gonna use this now. And that's the first time I read that book. Then like two years later, I read stillness is the key. And that was actually when I was, when I was, that was like a year ago actually, that's when I was going through was like a year ago, actually. That's when I was going through the height of my mental health crisis. And that really impacted me. And then during quarantine, I read ego is the enemy. And I started really getting into stoicism.

And I got like the daily stoic journal. And I was reading the Daily Stoic videos and one video that really resonated with me was the one where you're talking about how Stoics defines success and the internal scoreboard and how it's like, there's success, that's like, okay, how many views did this get, how many likes did this get, how successful is this song or this album going to be?

And that's all the things that you can't control. So if you measure success like that or what other people in the room think of me, then you're going to be unhappy your whole life. But if you change your definition of success, which I really practice, I've really been practicing when I've been writing for this album. If I change my definition of success to how honest was I today, how vulnerable was I today, how, you know, did I show up completely as myself,

was I kind to people, you know, was did I see people, did I make this a fun experience for everybody in the room, like if I just keep it in terms of, if I just focus on what I can control in this moment, then at the end of every day, I was like, it was a successful day. Even if I did feel anxious or nervous, I was like, my metric of success was, hey guys, I feel a little nervous, you know, and I was truthful. And therefore, I met with my like standard of success. And it's like, that's so much more important. Like it's so much more important to be the person

that you want to be and lead with that than like how other people perceive you or what people perceive you. Like that's like what I what I love about soicism and like what I feel like is going to be my philosophy of life forever is like, which it wasn't before and what I feel like is gonna be my philosophy of life forever is like, which it wasn't before. Like I feel like I was leading with what I was doing instead of who I was being. It's like, I'm just like, now I'm so conscious of like me being brave and courageous and kind

and truthful and kind and truthful. And, you know, me, my character comes before any of the things that I do. Hey, it's Ryan. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors, and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday's parenting is unbearable. I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting.

Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so- so expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently? And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone.

So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. One of the reasons I think it's important to, it's not just like decoupling success from results because like you could fail or whatever whatever. But I remember I was watching the Taylor Swift documentary, the Netflix one a few months ago. And she's talking about this moment where she wins like album of the year. She's the number one album of the all these things. And she's just sort of like, now what? Like she's unhappy because she got everything she wanted.

And that's a real thing too. If you have told yourself this lie that like, I will be happy when I accomplish X, then you get X and it's really disappointing. And that's when you also kind of realize like, oh, you can't be doing it for these external things. You have to be doing it because you love music. And the byproduct is these extra things. Totally. And that's like where I feel like the meditation stuff has been really useful is that it's constantly like your brain is always telling you is always like stuck in

the pastor in the future where in the future things will be better or in the past things were better or in the past things were bad and now they they're still gonna be bad, or in the future this might happen, so that's gonna be scary, and now this moment is bad. It's like, but none of that is true, and it's like you also, another stoke teaching that I love is like you could fucking die at any moment. So it's like, why would you put it off? It's like, also it's like the stuff that you're

Practicing in your mind and who you're practicing being as a person in this moment is who you're gonna be and and You know six months from now if you keep doing it the same way like You know if you are always like looking at what you don't have and what you need to be happy then That habit in your brain. it's like a pattern. Like that's not gonna stop, you know? And I feel like I've like, I feel like I also discovered about myself like in the past year.

Like I don't really see myself as like, I don't think I've ever been a, like a negative person or a pessimistic person. Like I think I'm pretty optimistic. I'm like pretty like bubbly and hopeful, but I have recognized like within my own mind how much like, which is what anxiety is. It's like anticipating the future

or not being present enough to see like what's going on around you. And yeah, just like, I've been practicing that lately a lot is just like looking around and being like, oh, I'm like so grateful to have water and be talking to one of my favorite authors and have a puppy. I'm so grateful for puppies that puppies exist.

Just like the practice of always looking around and training that muscle of like wonder and gratitude. It's like, I'm like just like excited for 10 years from now and hopefully that's just like a personality trait and not something that I have to practice, you know? But like, it does, things do become like actual personality traits when you practice them.

Just like anxiety, then I was like, oh fuck, I'm an anxious person, but I'm not. It's just that's what I've been practicing. Yeah, a friend of mine was saying something, they were talking about they were like, they're like, I don't like, they'd always felt that they were like scared of driving at night. They didn't like driving at night.

And then they realized they're like, oh no, my mom is scared of driving at night. And I just like picked that up. They're like, that's not actually who I am. And that they were like, I can discard that and just practice a new skill where I am not scared of driving at night. Totally. I actually have that.

My grandma has a fear of birds. And sometimes like birds will be flapping. And I'll be like, and I'll be like, wait, why am I, oh, it's my, my grand lost fear. It's, it's weird. It's just made up. It's made up. And there is also, I don't know how much of this is theory and how much of it is science. And I this might be, I actually want to be careful with that because I don't, I'm not sure. But it is like some stuff is passed down like through your, through your genes and stuff. I don't know if a fear of birds is, but you can, but what is also. You can reinforce it over over again. Yes, you can almost like turn on or turn off the gene

based on like what you, what you do. You know this is my second ever podcast. Really? What was the first one? My vocal, my vocal teacher is starting a podcast. Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, and so we did like it. We did a podcast about singing, Sean did it too, but this is my second ever one. Am I doing a good job? You're doing great. You're doing great. He goes into me. To go back to what you were saying about, you know, being happy for water and a dog, I think the Stoics talk about like how little is actually needed to have a happy or a good life. And I think one of the things COVID has done

is sort of shrink our expectations for what we need. And it's been nice for me. I'd be curious about this for you. Like I found that once I sort of started looking found that once I started looking much more inward, started looking much more around my immediate surroundings, and I have a lot less interest in what other people are doing, and that's contributed to my happiness in a huge way. It's hard for people to realize,

I remember I had dinner with this billionaire a few years ago, and he was talking to me about the Forbes list. He was talking about the other people on the Forbes list, and it's like talking to me about the Forbes list. Like he was talking about like the other people on the Forbes list and it's like you're a billionaire and you're you're even still you're like comparing yourself to other people but that idea that comparison is the beef of joy because it makes it instead of being able to appreciate that you have a puppy you're like oh but somebody has you know a mansion and a puppy and therefore I'm deficient for not having both. That's so true.

And like what's sad is that's probably like that trait is probably a big part of why he's a billionaire because he was constantly like, oh, this person has more than me. I got to work harder this way. And like that's something that I feel like is always, is kind of subconsciously taught to us too, is that competitive thing.

Like I know, I feel like even probably more, I've seen it so much in my industry of like, you know, I felt it within myself, like just being like, oh my God, like I have so much to be grateful for. Like I look at where I started, I never so much to be grateful for. Look at where I started. I never thought I would be here. The fact that I even get to do this is fucking insane. And then you go to, I experienced this so much when I would go to award shows where they

do this thing at award shows. It was great for your ego. In the good and bad way. It's totally sarcastic. But they call out everybody's names and then everybody, you know, that people around will clap. And it's like, I just like,

I remember going to a ward shows and, you know, they'd be like, oh, yeah, they're going to, wow, and they'd be like, come here, look at me, oh, and like they would, in my mind, they would be clapping a lot less for me. And I'd be like, oh my God.

And it would just like affect you so much to the point where I'm like, you would go up to get an award. And you'd, you'd be like, oh my God, I don't, I don't deserve this. Like I heard it in the room, not as many people clapped for me. And then it makes you, then there's the thing that happens in your brain. We were like, I got to work harder. I got, I got to work hard. And it's like, it's, like, I hate that version of myself.

I don't hate that, but you know, I don't, that's not a pleasant version of myself because then once I'm out of that space, especially now that I have been for like a year, it's like, you wanna be like, who cares? Like I'm just happy to be here. Like, whatever, you know, and you want to be happy for the people that got, you know, the loudest cheers and the most awards. Like, it's like,

it's like really enforced, probably in all industries, but I can speak about like the music industry. Like, there is this sense of competition and constantly like, you know, trying to be the number one. And I actually, I have to say like, I do feel that when I'm at award shows. And if I'm on social media, you know, and I'm looking at what every other artist is doing, like there is that part of you that'll be like, I got a work harder, I got to do more. But I have always felt like this is actually my favorite chapter in probably any of the books, but in Sileness is the key when you talk about this metaphor for it's like if everybody on this planet plus the planet

is one human body, it's like there's the person that symbolizes the eye. And the eye's gotta be the best eye, not the best hand. Just gotta be the best eye. And that kind of metaphor for all of our roles, really I feel like stuck with me because I've always felt like maybe it's like, it's not everybody's job to be number one.

It's just your job to be you. Like the world needs you to be you. And it's like even that book conspiracy, it's like even if it's sold less than all the other books, there's a group of people that fucking loved it. And it really affected them deeply and nobody could have done that except for you. And it's like, I feel like that about some people that are like,

you know, some, you know, meditation teachers or, you know, people that maybe not a lot of people know, or singers or artists that not a lot of people know, but for me, they've affected me so deeply. And it's like, I feel like I've really carried that and I'm gonna try to always carry that. Next time I go to one of those award shows and just be like, I can only just be the best me. And if five people really resonated with what I said,

that's great. And maybe that person is meant to, you know, it's like they're the eye and hand. I just gotta be the best hand. But that really takes the pressure off when I go to the eye and hand. I just got to be the best hand. But that really takes a pressure off when I go to the studio. Like, I'm not like trying to get a number one song. I'm just trying to be as true to myself as possible because that's what is going to

deeply, not superficially, but I think deeply affect people. Well, look, and you can... That's not true. I don't know. No, no, you got to... You're doing the song and you could die before the song comes out. So you have to think about whether it was just as... Whether it was its own reward. I think that's where...

I try to think about that. It's like, look, think about all the authors whose books came out after they died and then were a success. So like they didn't get to enjoy any of that. So if they didn't enjoy making it, that's really, really sad. If they weren't proud of it, when they finished, that's like the saddest thing in the world. And I've actually had experiences where I didn't have a great

time that day in the studio. And that song became successful. And I ended up really disliking the song. that day in the studio and that song became successful. And I ended up really disliking the song. Like I never liked it, even if it was successful. I didn't even want to perform it. And like my team would be mad at me and be like, but there are this many streams. And I'd be like, I don't like that.

I don't like it. I'm not gonna perform it. And I didn't. Wow. But I've actually like, you know, I've kind of, I gotta say, I got to pat myself on the back because I have always been really like ruthless about, I don't, not really like giving a fuck about the commercial success part. Like I do have like sub, I think sub conscious fears about like if I'm writing like what people in the room think of fears about if I'm writing what people in the room think of me. If I'm writing with Farrell, I'm like, I really want to think that I'm good.

You know, I have that thing, but I definitely, the whole billboard, the charts and writing stuff for it to be a number one and sound like everything else on the radio. Like I've always like really not been into that. And when I don't like something, like I just like, I won't do it because I'm just like, I can't. I wrote this email for Daily Stuck, which I'll forward to you. It was a couple of years ago, but it struck me once I was listening to,

I don't know, it's like hits of the 90s on Spotify or something. And I'd heard of like most of the songs because that's sort of when I was a teenager. And then it was like, then I was listening to like 80s. And I knew a lot of the songs because I like sort of heavy metal and stuff. And then I went seven, I was going backwards in time. And it was interesting to me how quickly these were the biggest songs of that period. How quickly, not only, I wasn't super familiar with them,

but some of them, I'd not only never heard the song before, I hadn't even heard the name of the person who'd done it. Right? And that's something that Stoke's talking about, which is just kind of how ephemeral it all is. And so if you're not enjoying it, and if you're doing it because you've diluted yourself into thinking you're going to be like famous for all time, this will be this legacy

that lasts forever, you're really depriving yourself of the present moment, which is all that you have. It's so true. It's so true. I had a friend who once told me like, you know, we were speaking about like legacy and he was just like, legacy is like for everybody else. Like it's like, it's not something that you get to enjoy. And it's also like, who, I always remind myself this, like, is anybody really gonna care, like in a million years? Like, who even knows if we're gonna be here? Like, who knows?

Like, who was the most hundreds of thousands of years ago and we were just like in tribes and there was like a famous singer woman around the campfire, like she was the best one, but I don't know her name, you know? Like, it is, like that's such a refreshing concept. It really is. And that's like something that Ego's the enemy taught me too. I was just like

when I get so riled up about a writing session or an interview or a performance, I'm truly thinking too much of myself. Like nobody cares that much. And like the people that I that do, like I actually, I just finished filming Cinderella, which is like my first film that I ever did, and I was Cinderella, which is crazy. But talk about that. I mean, it was amazing, but it felt like a pretty high pressure thing to do is I'd never been in a film before, and I was the lead role for my first film. And that took a lot of like really, I had a lot of like mental tools for me to show up every day

and be able to have fun and not really make that pressure the focus. Like I remember, I actually, do you know Michael Durvey? Yeah, I do. Okay, so I work with him. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that how you found out about my books? No. Okay, no, work with him. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that how you found out about my books?

No. Okay, no, Michael's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he told me that, he told me that you guys are friends, and there's been many times where we talk on the phone, and I'm like, I was reading Ryan Holiday's book, and he's like, man, he's a good friend of mine. And anyway, so I was, I've talked to Michael Durella

and while I was doing the filming, And anyway, so I've talked to Michael Durella, and while I was doing the filming, I would talk to him about just like the stuff that I was experiencing. I'd be like, hey, tomorrow is a big scene. I'm feeling nervous, whatever. And he was just like, he's given me a lot of wisdom about when I do get nervous before things, like writing sessions or wherever that I'm'm going to be in a vulnerable place, because doing that film was really

vulnerable. Acting is really vulnerable, because it's like, you have to be so present, there's no outsmarting it, there's no practicing the line before, and then like it's like all of it is really reacting to what's going on in front of you and and being present and I had to kind of like make peace with the fact that this is for I remember I was like when I first came back from the pandemic because we shot it over two different periods of time I came back and I was like, I was feeling nervous when I saw the camera and when the camera was in front of me and he was like, you're equating the camera with who, with what. And I was

like, people, like people that are judging my performance and people. And he's like, okay, how do we like turn that around? Who would you want the camera to symbolize her represent? And I was like, just like, you know, like a young girl, that's like a fan of mine. And she's just like wide-eyed and she's excited and she had a bad day and she just like wants some joy. She's looking for some joy when she watches this movie. And we actually like, I named the camera after like one of my,

one of my like closest fans, her, her name is Julia. And I just would picture her there. And it's like anytime I'm nervous, I just picture who is this really for it? Like it's really for my fans. Like it's for, it's for, um, Julia, it's for Aurora, it's for Steph. I'm naming actually, I'm naming some fans for Dom. Shout out.

But it's like these people that you are, like it's just as simple as that. It's not about your legacy or being the greatest of all time or anything like that. Like if that happens, like cool, but it's just to make people happy. It's like not really, doesn't have to be more complex than that. And that's like the most rewarding, I feel,

like, way of thinking about it for me. And so that was my purpose in that movie. It wasn't even to prove that I'm like a great actress or whatever. Like, if I just made them smile and made them happy, like that's who it's for. It's not for any kind of outcome or reputation or praise. Yeah, there's a Bertrand Russell quote, he's saying, like the first sign of an impending nervous collapses, the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important.

So true. And you can experience it firsthand. Yeah, because it is important to you and because it is important to your livelihood and because there is pressure, you sort of internalize it all and it becomes this like massive thing. And it's like, it's really, it's like, in my case, it's like, you're writing words on the computer.

Like, this is not that important. And like, I feel like the idea of, I would say, I feel like extends beyond like what you do. It's like, I have found like, especially in the last eight months, like how important it is to have, to feel a sense of purpose. No matter what you do, like,

it doesn't matter if you're in the arts or if you're a doctor, if you're a teacher, or if you are, you know, it doesn't matter. If you're an Uber driver, it doesn't matter. Like, I think like having a sense of purpose makes life so much better. Because if you're like, you know, my purpose is just to make people smile today. And my purpose is to, you know, make people believe in the goodness of other people. Like I think like when you like wake up every day thinking that it just like you

don't want to waste a day because you know you have a job to do. I actually read over the past eight months. I don't know if you, I think you have read it because you quoted a lot the the Gita, the Bhagavad Gita. Of course. I love. I loved it. It really impacted me. I loved like the way that they describe when they said you have the right to work, you don't have the right to the fruits of your work. Have you read Stephen Pressfield at all? No. So you would love Stephen Pressfield. He wrote a book called The War of Art, which I think is like the best book about the sort of creative process ever written. But he also, he made a novel about it called The Legend of Bagger Vance,

which is also a movie with Will Smith and Matt Damon. But that is a modern, it's the Bhagavad Gita but applied to a professional golfer. But his stuff is amazing. And I think, you have to have this sense of purpose and this sense of fitting in a large tradition. So it's weird, I think on have to have this sense of purpose and this sense of sort of fitting in a large tradition. Like, so it's weird, I think on the one hand, you're like, I'm just scribbling words down

on the computer like this isn't that important. But then also what you were saying where you were like, you know, tens of thousands of years ago there was some woman who was like singing as part of a trot. That's the other thing though, where I think you get purpose as you go, oh, but I'm also part of this really long tradition. It's not about me, but this thing goes back eons and eons and that you take your identity

in your purpose from being one spec on a really long line. Totally. And I find that to be so much more comforting just like being on your own and then everybody else. Like it's so much more comforting to know. And I really do believe that that's the truth that we are like little cells in this big body, this big system that we can't even understand. But it's like all of our actions and our energy and like, and really, and our energy and how we are, like it really has a ripple effect, like a huge ripple effect.

Yeah, that's like a really comforting thing to think in my opinion that we are like, we're not alone, we're all like deeply, deeply interconnected with each other and with nature. And it's like we're not ever alone because we're part of this huge, higher intelligence. That's where we came from.

Hey, it's Ryan. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned. There's a joke that every writer wishes they were a musician and I think it's because like you get to experience that when you perform, right? Like you get to watch 20,000 people come together as one entity that you're in charge of but you're also a part of yourself. That must be very overwhelming emotionally to experience. Definitely. I mean, it's really beautiful to see people like tapped into this thing. I mean, music is so incredible for, that's like my favorite part of like being a human and not any other animal is like, is music and delicious food.

But, yeah, I mean, it's, it's a, I'm just like remembering, because I don't, I don't remember the last time I played a show. Like, I think it must have been like a year and a half ago or something like that. But it's really beautiful. And like, when you see like sing stuff and they're like crying and they're you really see like them kind of experiencing like a catharsis of their own life and their own emotions and like you're doing that too but you're all kind of doing it there together. Like it's a really beautiful sense of of community and like where you see like how your story makes a difference, you know, like sharing your story exactly as you would share it makes a really big difference. And that's what I like. Another thing that I feel like has been a common theme for me, like it went, especially

when I was doing the movie, like I was like, I'm not trying to be like a good actress, I'm not trying to do a good job, I just have to be me. And like, and with all of my shit, like all of my anxieties in this and that and my struggles and this, like the world needs everybody to be exactly who they are. And share their story exactly as they are because the more like specific you get, I feel like

the less people feel alone because everybody is like there's nothing new that you and I have felt that somebody else hasn't and that's like what makes you feel less alone is when people are like open to to sharing that. And I, yeah, I do definitely feel that in, in a show. Do you know Casey Neistat? Oh my God, this is so funny because Sean asked me that same question two months ago

because he and Sean are friends because Sean is obsessed with like taking videos now. Yeah. And Casey, Casey gave him a camera. Yeah, so Casey's amazing. And I remember you did this video a couple years ago where he was showing like the different, he was like different levels of art. So there's like or inventions.

Like you make something and it's great. You make something that it's popular, that's great. You make something that's really popular, it's great or whatever. But he was talking about how like the ultimate form of art is to make art that helps people make more art. And so he's like the iPhone may be the greatest invention of all time because like think of all the things that people have done with their phones. But what I think is so powerful

about music is that it it's great itself. Like when you listen to a great song and it you know has some amazing guitar solo in it, or it's emotionally vulnerable, and it's beautiful, the singer is doing something incredible with her voice. Do you ever think about, so you have songs that have done a billion plays? Do you ever think about what people have done with that? Do you know what I mean?

Think about the art that your art has helped people make, because they were painting while one of your songs was on in the studio, or, you know what I mean? Totally. Totally. I mean, that's such a cool thing to think about, like that ripple effect. And like I've seen like with my own fans, like, you know, them sending me videos of them doing covers or like them learning how to play guitar to this one song of mine. A couple of like my, like a few of my fans have written poetry books because they've like gotten into poetry. Like yeah, it is like that conversation

that just like inspires people because art is like, it's just so cool. Like it's just like, we get to make things. Like it's so cool. Sorry, that was this, that was a not a not a very eloquent sentence. No, there's sort of an ineffableness to it, right? It's like you just, you just, well, there's a long fellow poem where he talks about like sort of footprints in the sands of time, that that's what art is. There's a there's a latin saying, I forget what it is, but the basically

the saying is like life is short, but art is long. And like you have, it has, you can capture something in a moment when you, you know, like, I wrote my first book when I was 25. And that book is still relevant. And it's like, I've moved on, but that book is still there. And people are still interacting with it. And yeah, you see what it helps people do.

It's just, to me, that's the ultimate reward of doing this stuff much more so than any sort of sales or charts. If you're thinking it has one person, you're like, wow. Yeah, and it's also like, I feel like when you're really old, like when you're like 90 or something, you can look back on it and be like, this is who I was at this point in time.

I can't do that now because it's too cringey. But when you're old, you'd be like, this is who I was at this point in time. I can't do that now because it's too cringy. But when you're old, you'd be like, oh my God, or you could show your kids. Your kids are going to read your books. That's so your grandkids are going to read your books. That is so cool. That's really cool. There's this phrase that I really love about music.

Actually, it's about art in general, but I have this acting coach who is this like incredible person. He's also an author. You should read his book. He has a few, but he has one called at left brain, at right brain, turn left or at left brain, turn right. But anyway, there was this phrase that he he actually just directed a film to and there's this line in it that's like these aren't just phrases they're human outcries. Oh sure. And I just like love that about that really makes me think of music because so much of the time it's like the core progression or what you're saying, like, I feel like that especially when

I'm like, just kind of listening to chords and just making melodies or doing ad-libs. It's like, it's coming from this place of no thought. It's just coming from a place of a feeling or just like full, just like feeling. Like it's just like, because I find when I'm like really in my head I can't even add lip like I can't because it's just is all Feeling and I think for my personality type because sometimes I've I'm like I Say sometimes now probably a couple years ago. What have been most of the times? I'm like so in my head that it's a really nice like Medicine for that and it's a really nice medicine for that. And it's, yeah, it's like so, like,

it's almost like, what's the word? So like primal, you know what I mean? That's why writers are jealous of musicians because like, what you're able to do instantaneously, it requires like hundreds of pages for a book to do. You know what it does, but it's different because sometimes musicians wish they could be writers because you can very like, you can leave people with an instructional wisdom. Like just like it is, like it's just like, this is, you know, you can touch people in a really, really direct way,

like super like life changing way. I feel like they're different. And then some songs can do that, but in music, it's like you have to dilute it so much that it is actually more of a feeling than words, it's just like a, it is actually more of a feeling than words of wisdom. It's just like a, almost like you capture the feeling in a jar and it's like,

that you open the jar and it's like, and that's like the feeling, whether it's like, you know, being in love or sadness or empowerment. It's almost like this jar of like emotion, that's like exploding. And then writing is just so, it's exactly what you want to say.

So musicians want to be writers too. Sean and I have been writing a book now. Well, you're expression that a song is an emotion in the jar is very beautiful because I was going to ask you, I have this super weird habit when I listen to music, it's almost always like, like I might hear a song of yours, me like, I like that song. And then I will listen to that song on repeat for like 200 times. And then I'll probably not listen to it again.

But so when I write, it's, it's almost like I had these disposable songs. So like, I'll pick something. And then that, I'm just trying just trying like and you play it on repeat to a way where all kind of blurs together and then you almost like kind of disassociate a little bit and then that's where my writing comes from. And so for me it's like it's always about finding that like hit like that sense that that some magical song that captures what I need and And then I want to like... Wait, so then... Wait, so you can listen to a song over and over. Yeah. And then you kind of repeat it over and over

until like, and that's the emotion that you want. And then that'll inspire you to, right? No, it's like, I'll hear a song and be like, I like that song. And then that, and then it's like, I'm like, like a vampire just like sucking all of that out. Right. So while I'm writing, this is why I can't ever share an office,

I'll have to listen to that song on full volume. In every room of the space, just playing over and over and over and over and over again, until I'm basically sick of it, or something I'm sick of it, I'll listen to it so many times that it will have been stripped of all of its meaning until I it doesn't mean anything else to me And then I move on to the next song is that where you think you think that it doesn't mean anything else to you

But then when you listen to that song one year from now or two years from now, it's gonna take you back To when you're listening to it all the time because there are songs that like I mean there's songs that shan and I would play basically the same eight songs like the first couple months that we were dating and I put those songs on now and I literally feel like I'm going to have some kind of stroke because it just takes me back to like my heart like starts racing it's crazy it just really takes you back to to to that time but it's because we obsessively played them. I actually feel like I have a different relationship

with music now since the pandemic. Well, I feel like I used to, like my sister's 13 and she listens to music all the time, but like she listens to really intense songs all the time, just in the background, like, you know, we were talking and she's like, has yellow by cold plan, like over and over and over. That's a, that's a good example of a song that, yeah, I might play like 200 times.

Over and over. Right. And right, but yeah, as your point, I do remember hearing that song when I was in 10th grade. And it like now represents that to me. Totally. And if you played it, you'd probably have this whole like flashback real.

But I think nowadays I can't, I have realized how much music like really, songs with words really are such a like mood dictator for me. Like they were really trigger and emotional response. So I don't just have them like I'm not really like, I don't really passively listen to music I'm not really like, I don't really passively listen to music. Like, if I just, I have music on in the background, it's just like instrumental stuff or more like ambiance, like, you know, Spanish guitar or something just in the background, but I can't really like listen to song songs passively anymore. Like the other day, I went to the dentist and I had to go to the dentist and it was like

they have like a TV playing like HGTV and songs from like the early 2000s playing and the dentist was talking to me and I was like this is so much stimulation like I it's insane. I couldn't focus on what she was saying because when a song is playing like my I'll just gravitate towards The song but it just made me think like it's just so, I don't know, like I can't, I have to listen to songs when I'm like, I'm gonna really like, like watching a movie, you know? Do it for me, Reed? I actually don't.

Maybe I think I would if it was, I mean, I could not do music songs with words while reading, because that would be insane. But I could probably do some like instrumental. But it just like, I feel like it still dictates the mood so much. Like it like, it taints what you're reading. Like if I were to start to hear like some piano music and it's sad, immediately I'll have like nostalgic thoughts, sort of like an nostalgic feeling. If I, you know, it like really colors the mood.

So I'm like, I'm more intentional about it now. But to bring this full circle and the way that like, Caesar Milan is like, somehow on the wavelength with a dog because he spent so many countless hours doing it, I got to imagine, giving your relationship with music and what it's meant in your life, you probably feel it at a level that like a normal person can listen to music

in the background, but you are, you know what I mean? That's like your superpowers, your ability to connect with words and what sounds. It's actually true, I hadn't thought about it like that, but that might be true. Because the other day, we were like, I hadn't listened to songs with words in a while,

and Sean put on John Mayer's continuum, and I was like, he put on dreaming with the broken heart, and I was like, this is crazy. It's just like so. Yeah, I think you're right. Especially when I've kind of like, I've just been listening to instrumental chill stuff. Like when I put on like a song,

like that, it's like, it's like such a stark difference between like passive instrumental music and like a breakup song, you know. It's like, I think, I think there's a John Marathon in each one of my books that was like a repeat song that I probably would really that's so cool. Are you a John Mayer fan? I am, but it's more like in the sense of like there's a handful of songs that I really like. But um and what's your favorite? So he has a cover of Freepalm by Tom Petty that I think is almost as good as the original. Come on, I think it's better than the original. It's so good. It's a...

That's... I may have listened to that one during stillness. It may have been... I don't remember, but I probably listened to that song like 300 times, 400 times. Me too. Me too. Actually, that was my number one most listened to song when I was like 14. Yeah.

Most my number one song. So I listened to it 300 times too. Like now, I feel like I know every part of that song. I get my voice could do eight instruments. I could, that's how many times I listen to that song. It's so good. No, it's incredible. And, but even like we're talking about like what a musician can do

in just, so it's such a short amount of time. Like even the opening chords in that song, like in the Tom Petty version, you're just like, that, that's just, I think there's a handful of songs that will hit me and you're just like, this is what mastery feels and looks like. Like this is the culmination of a lifetime created these three seconds of music.

Right. Well, I have a question. I'm curious about, because we've been talking and you're like, you write every single day. Mm-hmm. Pretty much. So, but like, let's say,

new book came out yesterday. Are you writing this morning? So the day that's still of say, new book came out yesterday. Are you writing this morning? So the day that's still of my most recent book came out, which is Lives of the Stoics. I was finishing the draft of my next book. Wow, that's cool. So, this is actually something I'm jealous of with musicians where like, you can put out

an album like right away. A lot lives was finished in January of 2020 and it just came out. Okay. So it's so much longer most of the time. I mean, they can rush books out. They just don't, but I'm I'm usually one book ahead. So I've already finished my next book. That's cool. It's going into editing now, but like I'm in a I'm in editing of my next book. It's going into editing now, but I'm in editing of the next book.

So how many hours a day, how much time a day do you spend writing? And is it every day? It's almost every day. I'll definitely write on the weekend, but it's a different routine because weekends are more for family. So I might do, usually what will happen

is I'll be working out and I'll have some idea And that'll be like a daily stoke email or something like that, but not not usually not working on a book on the weekends But like I try to like sit down at my desk to write usually like 8 30 or 9 and I'll be done by like 11 at the latest So it's usually like two to and a half hours. And then just that cumulatively over a long period of time adds up to books. That's cool. I feel like I need to integrate that. I feel like I need to like have a routine with with writing music as opposed to like when I want to feel inspired. Yeah, I think so so read

this book, the War of Art. His his like I think it's the best the best book about the creative process ever written. But his point is like, you have to put, he's like, you have to put your ass where you want your heart to be, which is an expression I love. And it's like, if you, he has this idea of the resistance.

Basically, it's like, we all wanna make great art all the time, but then the resistance gets in the way. And so if you only write when you're inspired, I think you're in a tricky spot because your mind can always come up with reasons why you're not inspired. So I love the routine, and then it's also, I think writing books is,

you have to get, you probably like this, where when you're writing, you're in a different headspace. It's like training for a fight or something, you know, or like training to go into space. And I had this dream that I was like, you know, it's like ready for a launch, like the countdown you're putting on the suit, you're going to the rocket, you're strapping in, and then it blasts off. And when I woke up from the dream, I realized that the book that I'd been putting off

starting, I had to start. Like I'd done all the research or just hadn't started writing. And so I've more gotten to a place where instead of having this start and stop, where it's like I'm training and then then I'm taking a break, I'd rather just be in fighting,

at my fighting weight all the time. So just never stop. Yeah, that's so smart. I love that. I'm definitely integrating that. That's cool. Well, I'll let you go, because this has probably been way too much of your time.

But we should talk routine. To me, I think if you don't have a routine or a practice, you're just getting by on like your sheer talent and like your youthful energy. But when you really look, it's like, how is LeBron James still performing at the level he's performing at? It's because it's a machine and he's just riding it, you know?

Yeah, wait, what's that quote? That's like consistency over excitement or something like that, consistency over. But yeah, it's, yeah, totally, over. But yeah, totally agree. I totally agree. Well, this was so fun. This was amazing. I appreciate it so much.

I'm so glad we got connected. And yeah, we'll have to stay in touch. Me too. Let's be friends. Let's be friends. Let's do it. Ryan, you're amazing. And you seriously, I mean, I told you the other day,

my mom, Sean, me, were your biggest fans and you've changed our lives. Stoics forever, baby. I get the email, I get the journal, I get the daily Stoic, the daily, that's part of my morning routine is reading one page a day. The leather, the black leather one.

So thank you for everything, seriously. You're the best, that's amazing to hear. And it's it, I think what's interesting for me is, yeah, like I've listened to your songs a bunch of times and it's just weird to put a face to the work. Well, likewise, because like Sean told you the other day, we've heard your voice on the audiobook so much, and now your face is moving. I love it.

Exciting. All right, talk soon. Okay, talk soon, Ryan. Bye. All right, bye. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on iTunes or your favorite podcast app. And if you don't get the Daily Stoke email, go to dailystoke.com slash email.

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