The Daily Stoic - Psychotherapist Terri Cole on Saying No and Setting Healthy Boundaries

Episode Date: February 19, 2022

Ryan talks to psychotherapist and author Terri Cole about her new book Boundary Boss-The Essential Guide to Talk True, Be Seen and (Finally) Live Free, the Stoic’s concept of controlling what you can control and letting go of what you can’t, how setting boundaries helps you represent your authentic self, and more. Terri Cole is a licensed psychotherapist, global relationship and empowerment expert. For over two decades, Terri has worked with a diverse group of clients that includes everyone from stay-at-home moms to celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs. She inspires over 300,000 people weekly through her blog, social media platform, signature courses, and her popular podcast, The Terri Cole Show.KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 50% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com.Stamps.com makes it easy to mail and ship right from your computer. Use our promo code STOIC to get a special offer that includes a 4-week trial PLUS free postage and a digital scale. Go to Stamps.com, click on the microphone at the TOP of the homepage and type in STOIC.New Relic combines 16 different monitoring products that you’d normally buy separately, so engineering teams can see across their entire software stack in one place. Get access to the whole New Relic platform and 100GB of data free, forever – no credit card required! Sign up at NewRelic.com/stoic.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Terri Cole: Homepage, Instagram, TwitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics. Something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to

prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey it's Ryan, welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. One of the things I've realized as a speaker, like I go around and give talks, is just like the importance of boundaries. Because if you don't have boundaries, you can get drawn into doing an endless amount of things that come at the expense of your work or the expense of your family, even your performance on stage. So I did a talk not that long ago. And one of the reasons, for instance, I have a speaking agency,

is that agency enforces a lot of those boundaries. And they're because of the pandemic and because of all of the other talks I have to do, you have to sort of enforce certain boundaries. If I got COVID on a talk I was doing on Monday, then I was supposed to be somewhere else on Friday, but I got COVID, obviously I can't do that. So there's certain protections.

And then also like, you know, they can rope you into stuff, like they want you to come to a dinner, they want you to do these photos, or you know, they, is it okay if we push it three hours, but you know, if you say yes, then you'll miss your flight home. So there's all this stuff, right? And so I try to be very clear about what I'm comfortable with,

what I'm not comfortable with, and I've tried to do better at speaking up for myself, because once I get to the event, like, I have to do it. Anyways, all of which was a little example. So before the event, the thing was running late, and I had to say like, guys, this is running late, I have to be at the airport, because you went late and pushed it, you're gonna have to cut part of the end of my talk, or this is going to work.

So I had to be very clear about the boundaries. Since I was fresh and I was ready and I was clear headed, I was able to be clear about those boundaries. But then after the talk, I come off stage, I'm a little tired, you need to sort of coming down from an adrenaline rush, you're a little bit like, where do I go, what do I do next? All of a sudden, they wanted me to do a bunch of stuff that I ended up not being super comfortable with, but I wasn't in the right place to be as clear

about the boundaries as I wanted to be. And in retrospect, it was very clear what I should have said, what I wanted, but I didn't. It was just an interesting illustration for me about how dependent setting boundaries is on mood, on whether you're eating right, whether you're sleeping right, about when you deal with it, about why you shouldn't put things off.

And that made me think of today's guest, it was an interview I really enjoyed doing. If you read my book, The Boy Who Would Be Can't, which is one of the pieces of work I'm most proud of, I made it during the pandemic for my four and with my two sons, to about the boyhood sort of rise of Marcus Aurelius is philosophical origins, what makes him the great philosopher King that he was. Well, the illustrator for that, Victor Ujas,

happens to be married to today's guest, who I got to meet when we were negotiating the terms, the details of that collaboration. Terry Cole, his wife, handles all that stuff for him in the same way that my wife handles a lot of business stuff for me just in the way that my speaking agency handles a lot of stuff for me. And so when I saw that Terry had this new book,

which frankly I didn't even know she had this other professional life, I knew professionally she manages a lot of this stuff, which was impressive enough for me, she did a great job. So as soon as I saw that she wrote this book and then I learned a little bit more about it, I had to have her on the podcast. And that's what brings us to today's episode.

Terry Cole is the author of a new book, Boundary Boss, the essential guide to talk true, be seen, and finally live free. She's a licensed psychotherapist, a global relationship and empowerment expert, and from more than two decades, she's worked with a diverse group of clients that include everyone from stay at home,

moms, the celebrities, Fortune 500 CEOs. She helps them make complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable. And most of all, she helps them with boundaries, which I think is so important. And I think very, very rooted in the ideas that the Stoics talked about. So you can go to Terry Cole.com. That's T-E-R-R-I-C-O-L-E. You can follow her on Twitter at Terry underscore Cole, on Instagram at Terry Cole, and you can follow her podcast, The Terry Cole Show.

And do check out the new book, Boundary Boss. And I think you will really enjoy this conversation because I enjoyed having it. I took a lot out of it. And Boundaries are something I'm always working on in my own life. And then I think we could all use a bit more of. Enjoy! Raising kids can be one of the greatest rewards of a parent's life. But come on, someday, parenting is unbearable.

I love my kid, but is a new parenting podcast from Wondry that shares a refreshingly honest and insightful take on parenting. Hosted by myself, Megan Galey, Chris Garcia, and Kurt Brown-Oller, we will be your resident not-so-expert experts. Each week we'll share a parenting story that'll have you laughing, nodding, and thinking. Oh yeah, I have absolutely been there. We'll talk about what went right and wrong. What would we do differently?

And the next time you step on yet another stray Lego in the middle of the night, you'll feel less alone. So if you like to laugh with us as we talk about the hardest job in the world, listen to, I love my kid, but wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon music or Wondry app. Let's start with boundaries. There's a bunch of stuff I want to get into,

but give me a definition because I feel like it's one of those words that people throw out there. And sometimes they know what it means. And sometimes they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Well, I'm gonna say mostly they don't have any idea in my experience. The way that I teach it is that boundaries are basically your own personal rules of engagement.

So it's a letting other people know what's okay with you and what's not okay with you. And what is comprised in knowing your boundaries is you knowing your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, like your non-negotiables in business and romantic relationships or any relationship, and having the ability to communicate them when you so choose. That's right. One of my favorite quotes from Senaqa, he's talking about how people are very protective of their physical boundaries, like if you encroach on my property, right?

Like I was just, we have this little vacation house and they're doing construction next door. And the construction crew keeps driving over like part of my front lawn and they park the dumpster there. And so you know, as soon as I saw this, I was like, what are you doing? You know, like my, I'm instantly go to defend physical space or a possession. But just the other day,

someone was popping in at my work, because they know where I work, they pop in. I'm not like, get the hell out of here, this is my workspace, right? You accept that or I think COVID were know, I think COVID, we're a little weird about like, well, I don't want to make this person uncomfortable, but I want them to stop breathing on my face, right? So what, he said, if you put all of the wise people in a room together, they could never figure out that contradiction. Maybe you can figure

it out, as the expert on boundaries. Well, part of it is that it's acceptable to protect your property, right? We have signs, trespassers will be in trouble, violators, right? Violators, whatever. So that's one thing. And we also are instinctually protective of our physical. Like if you're talking to someone like you just said and they're like a close talker You'll naturally just be like back up above you'll move it back yourself and if they step forward then you might say, hey man Like step back you're too close for my comfort and again, those are things that we don't feel bad about doing emotional boundaries mental boundaries even our material boundaries, sexual boundaries,

all of those things, it's so much more complicated because you have all of the conditioning around why that is. If you are raised to be a good boy or I was raised to be a good girl, that means being nice, especially if you are raised as a woman. It means being nice, especially if you were raised as a woman. It means being nice above. That is literally the highest virtue you could shoot for, was for people to think that you were nice. And if people thought you weren't nice,

wow, man, that was so bad. Like, you needed to fix that. And so I think that it makes sense. And most people don't even know that you have emotional, mental boundaries, right? Like, what are those? And I think that you have emotional, mental boundaries, right? Like what are those? And I think that it's important, the whole, I break all this down in the book, because people just think that having good boundaries means you're like all know to all the things

and all the people, right? It's like, all rejecting, it all like, oh, it's my way or the highway. And that's not true. Because when it comes to boundaries, you have the dysfunctional boundaries or boundaries that are too porous, so that's too malleable. And then you have boundaries that are too rigid, which is someone who says my way or the highway,

those aren't good boundaries. Those are just as dysfunctional as someone who's a chameleon or a peacekeeper or a pushover. But we don't view it that way because the public has this much idea as to what boundaries actually are. Right. You know what I think it is also with with property or whatever? It's like, okay, so they're driving over the corner of my property.

It doesn't feel like I'm like I'm defending this third thing, right? Like I'm like, hey, that, that's, it is mine, but I'm saying like, this is a legally recognized thing and you're messing with it. But I think we have trouble seeing ourselves as, you know, an autonomous individual with rights and deserving of X, Y, and Z. So we have trouble asking for it for us. Agreed. And depending on how you were raised, again, you're the culture. You want to talk about your downloaded boundary blueprint, which is like the schema or the paradigm in your unconscious mind about the way we're supposed to relate in romantic

relationships, friendships, all the things. So a lot of us came from families where it was like group think and that it was all like us against them. And if you deviated from that, there was a punishment. So having a boundary within a family system like that would be considered unloving. You would be threatened with getting kicked out of the tribe, so to speak, you know? Yeah, having kids has been good for me in that it's forced me to really think about my boundaries because so it's like maybe I would let you walk all over me, but then I'm like, oh, okay, if I just let this person take up all my time or I let work take up all my time or whatever it is, I only have so much of it, so that's taking it from someone else.

And so it actually created kind of a third party where I'm like, oh, like I have on my wall. I have a picture of my youngest son on top, my oldest on the bottom, and then in the middle, I've assigned that just says no. And if being a reminder of like, when I'm saying no, I'm also saying yes to these other two things, because it's not just, oh, I don't want to say no, because I want to hurt someone's feelings.

If I say yes, I'm going to hurt someone else's feelings, and I care about those two people more than this random stranger who's emailing me. Yes, not to mention saying no a lot is pretty stoic, right? Yes, of course. Being very discerning about where you put your very precious energy and how you spend your time. I mean, I have to say, stochocism is all about having amazing boundaries. It really is.

They were so ahead of their time in respect to so much of it, so much of what I teach when I started getting into stoicism and doing the daily stoic at night with my husband Victor, I was like, oh my God, these guys were like the OG boundary bosses basically because they're really teaching you to focus on what you can control one of the biggest ones is how you can control how you react to things. They kind of put it like how you respond. And I say more react because react is more of a visceral non-thinking. And so much of the creating good boundaries, developing this skill set or learning this language has to do with having enough time and space between the thought and the action

so that you're choosing something mindfully and then you're not blaming because when you have crappy boundaries, especially if they're too poorest and you're saying yes to everything and you don't have a sign on your wall that says no, you are then feel put upon. Right? Now it's like Bob from Accounting is an entitled jerk rather than you taking responsibility for not having the ability to say no to Bob from Accounting.

You know? No, I love the word boss in the title because I mean, first of bosses have to have the most boundaries because you can't, you know, you gotta keep your crazy shit at home, you got to know what you're allowed, you know, all those kind of things. But there's actually this great expression I was just reading from Plutarch where he's saying, like, you can't be the leader if they see you sitting around the fire eating beans.

Basically, like, they want, there has to be some mystery, you know? You can't be too vulnerable, which I would, anyways. But to me, the idea of like what stoicism is really about is about being the boss, the owner of your life, right? Being in charge of what you control. And so I think, like, the idea of like, hey, this is on me. I have to decide what I'm gonna defend, what my line is gonna be, what I'm okay with, what I'm not okay with. And then I have to take responsibility for the consequences of that,

as well as the consequences for not being on top of it. Right, and you're responsible for communicating it. If you wanna have good relationships, where the so many myths about boundaries is that if you have them and if you are Asserting your pre even just your preferences, right? Just your preferences. There's something especially with Women if we're talking about more traditional gender roles that like you get a badge of honor for being like oh, I'm easy breezy Whatever you guys want. It's all good. It's all good for being like, oh, I'm easy breezy, whatever you guys want, it's all good. It's all good.

Here's the thing. Your preferences, your desires, your limits, and your deal breakers, which are the things that comprise your boundaries, are also the things that make you, you. So when you think that it's better to be like, you guys decide it's all good, what you're doing is you are denying the people in your life, the opportunity to authentically know you. And I've seen women in particular come into my therapy office in their 60s being like,

married, I've got kids, I've got grandkids, but literally I was just how I'm supposed to feel because wow, it's so empty. Well, it's so empty, because nobody friggin knows you. Yeah, and you're not getting what you want because you're giving everyone else what they want. And you're not being the boss, right?

If you think about what is, the boss isn't, whatever you guys want, let's just do it, right? Like the boss is the saying, here's what we're gonna do, because I know either what I want, or I know what's best for the business, or the organization or the country or the town or whatever you're the boss of. The boss has to say, well, the boss doesn't just go with the flow.

Exactly. You have to be the boss of you. I think that that notion, that real notion, if we're not even talking about boss of other people, like you said, you are the boss of you, but from an emotional standpoint, if someone says, I can't believe you're not going to do that for me, you're so mean. Some people would be like, whatevs, you're clear. And most women would be slightly horrified at someone else, even if it's someone they don't even friggin like.

It doesn't even have to be. We want nobody to dislike us. And that really is a phenomenon that makes you incredibly vulnerable. And I would say to my clients, hey, if they're worried about like, oh, I'm dating someone and I feel like they're starting to back off. They might reject me. I'm like, can we just establish what, why you care? Is this person a decent human being?

You don't even know if you like them, but you're going to pour all your energy into not being rejected by the person you're not even sure if they're a decent human being. Like, it's, that's an example. No, I was just reading this biography of Sandra Day O'Connor and there was this great line in it that I think I'm going to use in one of my books. They were saying that one of her clerks, I think it was even a male clerk, might have been a female clerk, but anyway, they were marveling, it was a female clerk and she was like, you know what I loved about Sandra? It was that when she said no, she said no. She never said, I'm sorry. No, right?

Like she just said like, oh, you want me to come do this? I'm I'm declining. She wouldn't be like, I'm so sorry I can't she would just own like that she was in control of her preferences and her body and her agency and That's I mean that's why she was one of the most powerful women in America. But also, if you're one of the most powerful women or men in America, and you feel like you have to apologize to everyone for everything that you do, you're probably not actually that powerful. You're definitely not.

Because that burdens other people. When you think about the most trustworthy people you know, I promise you, they are the most trustworthy people, you know, I promise you they are the most boundaries people, you know, because they will not say yes when they really want to say no and then bail on you at the last minute or do it and be resentful or throw it in your face later. When you know your boundaries and you have the ability to communicate them. It is a generosity and it's how we build deeply satisfying relationships is you don't waste all your time. I tell this story in the book about a friend of mine who I texted, you know, I emailed

her and said, hey, I'm going to wherever the hell I was going for like a yoga retreat. It was summer hot though. Okay. I literally, oh, I think it was Guatemala. And she was like, I literally said, I'm doing this thing, do you want to come? And you were back, nah, I hate Guatemala, I hate Son. I hope you have a great time, bye.

Yeah. There was no, she didn't waste my fucking time. So refreshing. Yes. And I trust her because she's someone who's never saying yes when she really wants to say no, because she's worried about how I feel because she trust me enough to tell her how I feel.

Yeah, there was a shirt, I forget what retailer had it a few years ago and it became this whole controversy because it was kind of a consent. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's maybe when you want to say no. Which, because that's what we also do, right? Like someone asks you if you want to do something, what do you think about this? And instead of saying, I hate that,

I don't like Guatemala. I don't want to go. Or I can't go. I'm already over committed. We say maybe, or we try, I was just in this the other day with someone who was, they were coming to visit me. And like, they were worried about COVID.

And I was kind of worried about COVID and like both of us just wanted the other person to cancel and finally I was like you know what I was like I was like you're asking me that question because you're trying I was like you know what I'll take this one you know what I mean like I'll cancel and we'll both feel better and we'll do it at a different time but I think what we're doing what we end up doing is we're dancing around it, said just coming out and say it. And then as if the alternative of us both doing a thing that we weren't really comfortable with is somehow preferable.

Right, it's not, but again, it's about the perception of what people think of us. And I always teach how to start saying no, especially if anyone is an insta-yes person, where you sort of just feel compelled to give people immediate answers, or you have to text people right back, or you keep your phone on all night, or whatever, is we always, I always say this, and no insta-yeses to anyone for anything. Start creating space between invitations or gigs or whatever it is, and your answer. So because we're endlessly training people of how to teach us what they can expect from us.

So if someone says, do you wanna go to this party on Saturday or whatever, you can say, I don't know, I need to check with my husband, I need to check my schedule, I need to see if I have babysitting, whatever. I'll go back to you tomorrow, or you could say, I have a 24 hour decision-making policy,

I'll let you know tomorrow. Like what's wrong with saying, I want to think about it. And we think that's offensive and I don't celebrity feuds are high stakes. You never know if you're just going to end up on page six or do me or in court. I'm that bell. Si and I'm Sydney battle and we're the host of Wunderies new podcast, dis and tell where each episode we unpack a different iconic celebrity feud. From the build-up, why it happened, and the repercussions.

What does our obsession with these feud say about us? The first season is packed with some pretty messy pop culture drama, but none is drawn out in personal as Britney and Jamie Lynn Spears. When Britney's fans form the free Britney movement dedicated to fraying her from the infamous conservatorship, Jamie Lynn's lack of public support, it angered some fans, a lot of them. It's a story of two young women who had their choices taken away from them by their controlling parents, but took their anger out on each other.

And it's about a movement to save a superstar, which set its sights upon anyone who failed to fight for Britney. Follow Disenthal wherever you get your podcast. You can listen ad free on Amazon Music or the Wonder App. Well, no, Steve Cam, who's a friend of mine, he has this site called Nerd Fitness. And he just did what you just did. He told me about it. I've been using it myself. So I'd be curious if you could expand on it. What he does is he says he has, instead of going, he just says what, that he has rules. I have a 24 hour decision making process where he says, I have a rule against X, right? If he doesn't want to do it. What do you

think about like statements, like what are some statements people can use if they feel like encroached on or uncomfortable or whatever? Well, one is like about lending money. Let's talk about that because this has to do with boundaries. And yes, just don't do it because it's just going to be a shit show. No matter what you say, no matter what they say, if you can afford to give someone that, do so, if you want to. If you cannot, please don't because it will really ruin your relationships.

It's so important. They never work out for the relationship. Totally. So much better in theory than in actual reality. So if someone comes and says, oh, hey, I'm really in a spot and I'm really in a bind and I really just need you to float me whatever they say. You can just say, oh, hey, listen, I have a no lending policy, friends, family, because that's how I protect my relationships.

So I'm sorry, it's not personal to you. It's just no, no. I've been burned before, I'm uncomfortable with it. Yes. And here's the thing, let's talk about providing context and convincing. And let's talk about the difference between those things. OK.

A lot of times, when we say no, we almost feel like, wow, we need a really good reason. Like we need to convince. We need like a good story as to why we're saying no. And that is completely untrue. Simply not wanting to do something or wanting to be with your children instead of doing this thing or wanting to be alone or watch friggin Netflix or whatever the hell you feel like doing. Is it good enough reason to say no to something. And I think that with the people we love and care about, sort of people who I call like in the VIP section of your life, I provide context because I want them to more deeply understand me.

Right. I care what they think. If my friend says I'm doing this big thing on Tuesday night, it would really mean a lot if you could come and if I have a big presentation on Wednesday morning, I won't just say, yeah, no, I'm out. I'm not doing it. I would say, hey, I would love to come. I just don't think I can get done when I need to get done at time and I have a 7 a.m. thing. I'm so sorry. Break a leg. Let's have lunch this weekend. Right. There's a way to lovingly this weekend, right? There's a way to lovingly uphold our boundaries and do what is best for us. Now, that is context, not convincing. Convincing is more, almost like pleading. We're almost like, and I mean, and I haven't slept in menopause and I'm exhausted. And like, we need all the good

reasons why. Right. We can't do it. And what ends up happening with people is that when we are seeking someone's approval, wow, it really makes them want to withhold it. So whatever energy you bring to that interaction is the energy with which it's received back to Sandra Day O'Connor. Right? Her energy was just boss energy. Yes. I'm not being mean. I just can't do it. And I don't need to tell you why. I'm not going to. Like, we're good. Maybe next time. Maybe never. I don't know. But it didn't leave anyone feeling like

she felt bad about saying no. I should feel bad that she said no. When we feel fine about saying no, I should feel bad that she said no. When we feel fine about saying no, everyone else, I promise you, falls in line and feels fine about us saying no. Right. Right. What about, so when I get like, obviously lots of inbound things, whether it's from publicists or random people,

or someone was asking me, that I don't even know, was asking me for a letter of recommendation yesterday. One of the rules that I've had to work, I was like, I just can't, just because someone sent me an email, doesn't mean I owe them a response. Absolutely not.

So that's sometimes I just ignore it, right? And I'll even do this like, let's say I'm going back and forth with someone and it's becoming unpleasant, I'll just be like, I've said my last word, I don't need to even read what you said because it's not going to change what I what I what I think. But somehow how do you how does one know that they're enforcing a boundary by say ignoring or not recognizing or not responding with something and when they're just running away

from it? Part of it is with someone who has the life that you have, why are you looking at your own inbox all the time? It's too much. You need someone else to be doing it, who can filter for you. We have canned responses, right? Because again, I'm a psychotherapist and I'm public.

Obviously you can imagine how many people write their life story to me and want me to weigh in for no money and don't want to talk about it publicly. So they want me to call them. I'm like, yeah, and that's not being mean. I understand, but I'm obviously also not doing that because that would be ridiculous and I couldn't. So we have loving ways of saying,

hey, the influx is too much, but you can do this and Terry has a blog or a video on that exact topic. This might be helpful. We're never just trying to be like, bye, but you're a bandwidth, my bandwidth, right? That's what keeps my business going is my bandwidth and my brain. So I can't be worried about all of those things.

So anyway, systems, I think are great. And I think that saying, if you're done with someone, on the back and forth, I do think, depending on the relationship, And I think that saying, if you're done with someone, on the back and forth, I do think, depending on the relationship, I think it's okay to let the silence be a boundary or to basically just right back, I said what I said, I wish you the best.

You know what I mean? Right, right. The same thing with people and dating apps, I always say to my clients, like, just say, just say, hey, you're lovely. I had a great time and yet sadly, I don't feel like we're a good match, I wish you the very best. Write it, have it in your phone and say it.

Be kind, communicate, release people when you know it's done. Do not jerk people around because it's not kind and it's so avoidable. Yeah, although I feel like at the same time, not having any experience on dating apps because they all predate me getting married, but I do find sometimes people talk about being ghosted as if this random stranger they were instant messaging with for 30 minutes, owes them an acknowledgement of their exit from the room.

You know what I feel like sometimes what people are calling ghosting is really just life and then expecting or obligating a complete stranger to reaffirm their validity as a human being when that person owes you nothing and you should expect nothing. Okay, I'm going to disagree and I'll tell you why. Because you're going back and forth. How hard is it to say, hey, you know what? I'm too busy to keep this up. I wish you the best.

I'm not gonna be responding anymore. You may say this unnecessary, they don't know it, but it would be clean to do it. Because you're leaving this loop unclosed, especially if on Wednesday, you were texting feverishly and now on Friday, you're like, I don't want to do this anymore. And then you don't let the person know, even listen. I'm not saying if it's like you texted with the person twice, and oh my god, they owe

you an exit letter, of course not. But the ghosting story is, I hear as a psychotherapist, you would be a bald. Oh, just some of them are real. Yes, of course. Yes. Crazy. And, of course. Yes. Crazy. And you're right. Should we be so tender and so sensitive that if the 30-minute texture doesn't give us an

official goodbye, we should feel bad, of course not. Because I think we have to manage our own expectations around what someone does and doesn't owe us and what we owe them as well. But I also feel like it's just as easy to be like, Hey, we're not a good fit. I wish you the best. How long would that take to write? That's true. And sometimes we should see it as as preemptive time saving. So it's like I'm saying sometimes I ignore it, right? And then it's like, it's, you know, one out of 10 times that person follows up 27 additional times. Or they use all these

sales people too, they use these apps that like remind them to respond. So you're like, I'll notice I'll be like, you know, this person emailed me every Monday at 10am for six consecutive Mondays. If I would come on their podcast, you know, they obviously don't understand that every time I do that, every time they do that, any likelihood of me ever doing it in the future is getting closer and closer to zero. But if I had just said no earlier, I might have saved myself even the time that it takes to delete all seven subsequent emails or God forbid they lose their mind and go crazy, which sometimes happens too. Right, right. Exactly. I think that there is something about

cleaning up your own energetic field. By just, I mean, for me, I just forward them to my assistant and say, can you please say, and when I don't, they always come back seven different times and I'm like, can you please tell this person, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't do it or I didn't forward it to you? Yeah. Because I don't want them on the hook,

but I also don't want, I don't need any of the stuff on my plate, so to speak, because you do think about it. Like this person's asking, it's not nice to not get back. It's a whole thing, you know? Yeah. No, no, I find myself affording to my assistant quite often, emails where I've just said, make this go away. You know, please.

I don't care what you have to do. No. But it should cease to exist as far as I'm concerned, and I will be a happier person for it. Yes. Get it out of my inbox, please. Yeah. No, no, I feel like one of the best expressions I heard is that your email inbox is it to-do list put together by other people.

Yeah, my God. And if you start to see it that way, then you're like, oh, yeah, I can't, you know, because let's say I'm sitting down to write and then that's what's on my to-do list today, plus I have to make this phone call and I have to go to this meeting and talk into you or whatever. And then, but two seconds before I start to write,

I see that there's six urgent emails, they might well be urgent, but if I didn't know they existed until later, I would deal with them later, but the problem is they're getting bumped to the top of the to-do list because they had access to my brand to be able to do that. Yes, which is where boundaries come in in the workplace, where you actually have a proactive system of letting people know the best way to communicate with you, when to do it. My whole team will use voice notes when they're communicating with me because that's what I want, when to do it. My whole team, we use voice notes. When they're communicating with me, because that's what I want.

When they communicate with other people, do whatever you want. But that's the easiest for me to do. And when you set that up, you're really starting to get rid of the small annoyances and the bandwidth sucks and the frustration and the, you know what I mean? And I feel like that's one of the things. Like being really specific about when I get back to people, like when I'm going to be in my email has really helped me gain a bunch of bandwidth.

And also getting, I know you're saying, we were trying to get off social media, some and having just not getting up until my day has started. I've done my morning stuff, working out, meditating, hanging out with Vic, doing all the things that I do before I even start working because back in the days when I was looking at my phone, as soon as I woke up, I was like, well, any piece I was gonna have this morning is now shattered. I, this is something I've been having to talk to my employees

about especially during the pandemic because like, I'm not seeing them, right? So like, I'm not seeing, hey, you were at the office till 11 p.m. yesterday, right? So, or, or, you know, you are looking increasingly run down, and since I'm not seeing it, I'm having to remind them, like, hey, look, you have to surface to me that you're burned out, that this is too much for you. Like, I don't know, this is one of the questions I've come to ask, like, what is taking up a lot of your time, that you don't think is a good use of your time?

Yeah. Because I can't, I don't just instinctively know that. And so if you don't tell me, you could be under the impression that this job is supposed to grind you into dust and make you hate me, but that's the last thing that I want as a person who picked you because you're good at what you do. And so I think people have to understand that enforcing your boundaries at work is not only not selfish.

It's part of being a responsible employee slash human being provided that you're in a healthy workplace. If you say to your boss, hey, I'm grinding myself to dust, I can't keep doing this and they go, I don't give a shit. Well, they've also given you a gift because they've told you like,

hey, you got to go find a different job. Exactly. You don't have the eyes on them because you're not in person. Right. I think that people do get burned out. And so many, so much on my team, they are workaholics, but Christmas, two weeks off, everyone is off, nobody's working.

You better not be on Slack. Rest. Because then we come back energized. We have good ideas. We're happy to be here, rather than bitter to be here. Exhausted, the same old, same old, you know? Yeah, of course. And it's like people want freedom,

but then they don't understand that the upside of that freedom or the counter side to that freedom is you've got to be a little bit more responsible for yourself and your feelings and your emotions. And you have to, as you said, part of boundaries is not just, well, I don't like working late, right? You have to communicate that you don't like working late and that you feel as if you have recently been made to work late. That's on you. Exactly. Communication is key. And those are, that is an internal boundary, right? So internal boundaries are the way that we relate to ourselves. And how often do we fall down on what we say we're going to do for ourselves, whether it's

eat healthier, whether it's workout, whether it's not look at the phone until after 11 a.m. or whatever the thing is. And I find this is just an epidemic. The whole disordered boundaries is an epidemic. Everyone having no idea how to actually do it. But that is something that being self-abandoning, right? I say to a lot of the women in my crew, like we were raised and praised for being self-abandoned and co-dependent. Sure. Right. Getting positive, the more self-sacrificing you are, the more positive the feedback, growing up in that, there is a lot of unlearning to do to be able to have good internal boundaries and think that how you feel matters. Yeah, and I've got to imagine so much of this starts in childhood and how do you, as I've

been going through this with my parents a little bit, how do you deal with boundaries with your parents? I imagine work boundaries is a huge thing. Boundaries in romantic relationships, but it strikes me that where people had the most difficulty is like, I don't like, and I hear this because all my friends have young kids too.

It's like, my father and my wife smokes in the house and I don't like it and I hate it every time he visits. That seems like such an easy problem to solve to me, but people seem to have trouble drawing boundaries with the people that brought them into this world. Yeah, well that is very common. And part of it is when you think about boundaries, they're basically behavioral dances. So your family of origin, that's like the original dance group.

Like you've been dancing with those people the longest. So you know, it's like going home, and if you stay longer than I always say like going home you should never be more than like three nights, four days, that's it because longer than that it's just going to go bad. But you can really revert to an earlier phase of development like you get home and suddenly you're like fighting with your sister or your brother in a way that you never would with friends. You're like what happened? I got in a way that you never would with friends. You're like, what happened? I got in a time machine and didn't want to.

So I think that part of it is realizing that you grow up and you have to change and you can learn this language. You can say to the father of the father-in-law, hey, I have a simple request that you smoke on the back porch because I'm worried about the kids. And just you make the request. If the father and I was like, what the hell or whoever it is, it gets angry. You can say, hey, I'm worried about the kids and I would hope that you would be too. So that is my simple request. And then if it's really something that matters,

then you have to really draw the line. I had someone who wrote into me about her father wouldn't wear a mask. This is like height of COVID. Yeah. Wants to come see the grandkids. She's like, I don't know what to do. How should I? Oh, and I was like, dude, this is like health. You know, like you, you can be dominated by your father's views. You could do whatever this is your, these are your children. It is your job. You are the one who is required to protect them. And I said, listen, you can do whatever this is your children. It is your job. You are the one who is required to protect them. And I said, you can tell your dad, hey, dad, I know you're right into the mask. I've been asking you to wear it. If you come to the house without a mask, you're going to have to see the kids through the screen with you on the grass and them in the house.

That's it. And I mean, she did do it. And he was like, that's right. I gave this. And it came. It didn't wear a mask. But you know what? She didn't let the kids out. No, and that predates COVID. I mean, I know so many people that had trouble. And I, we did it with my parents. They were good about it. But it's like, hey, look, we have an infant. You got to get a flu shot and you got to get, you know, that you got to get these vaccines. Yeah. Because it's not fair to this other. so it does go back to the idea of

hopefully you can be more emphatic and forceful about the things that are affecting a defenseless other person. You can let your parents walk all over you if you want but your kid didn't sign up for that. Correct. And it's so much easier. I find for a lot of people in my therapy practice, it's so much easier, even though it's still scary if you have really malleable boundaries to stand up, but it's, they stand up for kids in a way that they would maybe never be able to do it for themselves because they, they're such a parent. You know, you feel so obligated, hopefully, to not let, you know, what happened to you happen to your kids.

Well, and I think one of the sort of traumatic interesting things about having kids for me is starting to understand what it must have been like to be a five-year-old around these people who have not changed, right? So you're like, oh, at five, at ten, you know, although you had, you should have had your boundaries at 10, you know, although you had, you should have had your boundaries respected. You didn't because you had no mechanism for, you couldn't like appeal to a higher court, right? Because your parents were the law.

And so then when you, when you go, oh, this is how my grandparents or my parents, or you know, this person, this is how they're acting around my five-year-olds. This is how they must have acted when I was a five-year-old and think about how difficult that must have been for me when I knew intuitively it made me uncomfortable, but I didn't even know what boundaries were. Right. It's amazing, though, because you see that boundaries, the downloaded boundary blueprint and

Those norms that you learn right familiar norms and all of that these things get handed down From generation to generation and I always say it's like we have to go into the basement of your mind Which is the unconscious or the subconscious? Because that's really where it all is. We have to question, oh, the way my parents are with boundaries, guess what? I don't have to be that way. I can choose something different. That isn't the way the world is. That's just the way they were. And I think that for a lot of people knowing that you always have a choice, that even if it's a hard choice to make, you do have a choice. And it's your one and only life this time around, right? Like, I hate to quote, share, but you know, this is not a dresser or

so like we are alive people, you know. Yeah. Well, no, and I feel like obviously part of Stoicism is this idea of like, okay, this happens, don't let it trigger you, don't let it upset you. But if you're only thinking about it at the symptom level, then you're having to do this through sheer willpower. I think it's been really helpful for me to go, oh, okay, obviously my wife says X or my kid does X or I get this thing and that upsets me. That's on me, I can't get upset by that.

But now, why is this specific tone or when I have asked for this and it happens this way, why is that so bothersome? And then you roll it back, you roll it back and you go, oh, it's because when I was 11, you know, this kept happening to me and I didn't have any resource. And so that's sort of in there in your muscle memory or in your DNA. And if you can understand that and process it and then perhaps just start to put in some boundaries with those people, then maybe it won't be so triggering when it happens to you know now in the future. Yes and what you can do so that is everyone has that experience where I'm that you're talking about

where we have an amplified response to something and we're like even looking back on it you go what was going on? I was like so mad and And why did I get so mad so fast, let's say? And this is what I call repeating boundary reality, where this something from the past is coming back. And you can quickly, anybody listening can quickly ask yourself three questions about the person you're interacting with when this has happened, right? Who does this person remind me of right now?

Where have I felt like this before? And how is this behavioral dynamic like the boundary dance that we're doing? How is that familiar to me? You might have witnessed it. You might have been a part of it. The person you're interaction with might suddenly become metaphorically, your punitive parent, and you might metaphorically become your 10 year old self. Right. And when you start to identify

when you're having a transference like that, it gives you so much power to not have your triggers exposed to anyone who feels like punching them, you know? Right. Yeah, one of the questions I ask is like, how old is this reaction? Like what age am I being right now? Yep. You know, right? Yeah, one of the questions I ask is like, how old is this reaction? Like what age am I being right now?

And it usually goes back to some pivotal moment in our life. It could be different things for different people or different specific things. But you're like, oh, yeah, this is 12 year old me. This is seven year old me. And would you want a seven year old to be act, you know, in this business negotiation probably not? Maybe not. Another helpful question though, is being able to ask, right? The last one is exactly what you just said. Who do I become? And who does that other person become when we are in this dynamic? And then you would be able to go, Oh, look,

I became my 12 year old cell. And that person became my parent or my older sibling or whoever it was. And then we know, Oh, that injury, whatever happened then might need some attention. Maybe I'll journal about it. Maybe I'll go back there because it's charged in some way or you wouldn't be having a transfer, you wouldn't be having an appropriate response. So this is more of a personal question, but I wonder what you're, I'm sure you see it a lot.

Okay, so let's say with a parent, you have something happens, one asserts a boundary, like let's say with the mask thing, although this isn't what it is for me. But like you go, hey,, if you keep doing this, or if you don't address this, it's a very, it's a do-or-die boundary for me. Like it's a...

Non-negotiable. We can't have the relationship if this is how it's going to go, or if this doesn't change. And then the person doesn't do that, right? Right. So now you get into this thing, well, okay, so now I don't have the relationship with this person or these people.

That can be tough. And then what I think often happens or what I've experienced is then those same people are mad at you and try to guilt you for not having the relationship, right? And so how do you navigate the black and whiteness of boundaries and the consequences? And then the guilt or the grief or the loss

that comes from the fact that people aren't respecting this pretty simple thing you're asking for. Well, it's all about how you approach the other person. So part of it is trying not to wait until you're so pissed that you are ready to take it or leave it, right? Right. Approaching someone where you're like, this is not negotiable and you're out, you're out. You know, so we go in with the pro, what I teach it as is a proactive boundary success plan, where you know who this person is, especially if it's family of origin stuff. You know the best time to talk to them. You know how

not to trigger them. You know how not to trigger them. You know if there's someone that they're going to be sensitive, you wouldn't go in super aggressive. So we do all of those, but then we come up with language. Right? Like, you know, super easy one is I'd like to make a simple request. Another one is a more observational one. You know, I noticed that when you come here and you smoke, that afterwards I really feel bad or whatever like observational where you're not making them bad, but you are observing the behavior.

Like we have to inform the people of what it is. And if you have someone who is a, you know, we call them repeat offenders, where you have told them, right? See a boundary first timers where you wish they could read your mind, but they can't. You've never actually Expressed in words or written it. So their first timers we handle them one way But a boundary, you know this repeat offender could fall into the category of a boundary bully and might even fall into the category of a boundary Destroyer, which is way way more damaging and toxic than a boundary destroyer, which is way, way more damaging in toxic than a boundary bully. But with a boundary bully or a repeat offender, we have to, we try to add a consequence that isn't necessarily a take it or leave it right away, right? We try to say, but you know what, grandpa, if you can't not smoke, then you will not be

welcome here, but we will meet you in the park. Right. Well, we will go to your house, but I can no longer, I've asked you and you don't abide by it. So, just like I asked you last Tuesday and I asked you three weeks ago and here's the thing. If grandpa agrees to not smoke, but then goes back on it, like you have two different kinds of boundary people because some of them just go, what are you talking about? No, I'm not doing that. And you know that they're really going to be hard. If grandpa agrees and he kind of feels like what he's

doing isn't cool either and maybe there's a way to work on that. But there has to be a consequence of someone stepping over the boundary that you've established, especially if it's one they've agreed to. And only you know what your deal breakers are in relationships, what you just cannot abide by, what you would rather not have the relationship than feel trampled on by this person or whatever it is, but the communication is so key, and it's all about you. Like, this really hurts my feelings that I'm asking you this and you don't care.

This makes me feel unimportant to you or whatever the thing is. But that is also different than a boundary destroyer which we can get to after. But back to what you were saying about grief is that it's sad. When we so much of the reason people don't create boundaries in their life, is they're so afraid of being rejected. They're so afraid of being kicked out of the crew or the tribe or whatever. And they're so afraid of if this person is not going to love me anymore. And that's really not necessarily true. And so I think that then when you do it and the person does, you know, you say,

take it or leave it and they leave it and they don't do it you want, then you have to mourn the loss of what you hoped that relationship could be. A lot of times we're really not even mourning what the relationship was. It's almost more like we wished it was better than it was and that they were more flexible than they were. Where you're believing what you thought it was that the subsequent things have revealed it to actually be that oh hey this was more of a fair weather friendship than I thought or you know I thought my parents love me unconditionally but it turns out. Well clearly there's a condition in this minor condition that I'm asserting was too much to bury. You know, that can be very painful, I think. Oh, without a doubt.

And yet you still have to do it because you have to decide if you abandon yourself in that moment. Because listen, not everything is a deal breaker, right? That's why we have categories. Preferences, desires, limits, and dealbreakers because not everything is a deal breaker. But when it is, you're the only one who can determine what that is for you. There's no right and wrong. It doesn't matter if other people understand that or not. You know what that is and that it really does matter to you and it probably would be more damaging to

stay in that situation and feel like you're abandoning yourself and your principles over and over and over again, then maybe going to no contact or stepping back from the relationship. Yeah, it's, it can be, it's like, yeah, I agree, this is sad. So that's why there is this way forward, but I can't make you choose that way forward. That's what bound. You know what I mean? I can tell you what I'm comfortable with. But if you decide that's something you're not willing to do, yeah, we're both going to end up in the same outcome, which is that we're sad about it. But one of us has the power to

change that. And it's not usually you. Right. But again, you have to be clear that what you are, the boundaries that you're asserting are your boundaries to make, meaning it is your side of the street. So it's not about like what the other person is doing, unless what they're doing is morally bad, or something that you wouldn't wanna be associated with. And I think that especially for women, because we're so highly codependent, so many of us, we take on, we feel responsible for a lot of the things.

The feelings, the outcomes, the decisions, the circumstances of the people in our lives, but we're actually not. So I think a lot of what I talk about in the book is that it's important that we get really clear about codependency, what is codependency and what isn't codependency? Well, you bring up a good point, though, and it's something I need to get better at, which is that if you're silent about it and it builds and it builds and it builds, it's, I mean, still it's your call to make and you shouldn't have to put up with anything

you don't wanna do, just like if someone is like kinda into it and then they change their mind. As soon as you change your mind, you know, that's where it has to stop. At the same time, I found myself in a lot of situations where because I didn't speak up, I was slowly growing unhappy with a business relationship or whatever, and then there's a straw that

breaks the camel's back and they're like, well, let me fix this but really the time to fix it would have been had I told them what was bothering me two and a half years ago. Absolutely, absolutely. It's totally been there and it is cumulative and it's like the other person literally doesn't know. Yes. That you've been, you've been leaving this relationship for two and a half years. The moment that straw happens, you're like, oh no,

I'm so done. Like there is literally no saving this because you didn't know what was happening. And I think they're really, it's amazing how many relationships could be if they were meant to be saved, whether it's a work relationship or a love relationship with communication, with early communication. I always teach in my courses that it has to be, you have to establish your boundaries early and often if you're dating.

If you're in the beginning, someone's like, hey, I'll call you Friday and they don't call you Friday. And they don't call you Friday, but then they call you Monday and they're like, what's up? You have got to be like, so did you get a Dr. Bailey and some Friday? Like, you could be funny, you could be 30, you could be cheeky, but don't collude

with their fake ass reality. Because then that becomes your fake ass reality and your frustration is real. The moment someone doesn't keep their word, I'm like, oh hey man, didn't we say this? Like, I don't have no zero tolerance for people who are foolish. It's like, do what you say you're going to do. And women in particular would be like, well, I don't want to seem like a nag. I'm like, expecting someone to keep their can word is not being a nag.

It's just being a grown up. Do you want a data sixth grader? Because that's sixth grade behavior. Right. And if it's bothering you now that they were an hour late and you don't say anything about it, they're going to be an hour late all the time because you've just taught them

that they can treat you that way. Yes, you literally just said this is okay behavior. I expect more of the same because it's coming. Right, right. What's that Oprah thing when people tell you who they are, believe them? No, no, it actually is my Angela. There we go. Well, that's a slightly more prestigious source.

The last thing I wanted to ask you about to go back to business, I thought it was interesting. So for people, and I'll talk about this in the intro, but you and I worked together through your husband who did the amazing illustrations on my book, The Boy Who Would Be King, and I haven't teased what it is, but we're doing a sequel to it that I think he just sent the final ones today. But I'm sure you're glad to be that to be honest.

As my wife always is when I am almost near finishing a certain project. So I admit Victor through Sean Coin, we were talking about it. He did a really interesting thing that not enough creatives do. Although, he was like, hey, I want to work together. This is awesome. Talk to my wife. She handles all of these things for me. And then you and I had a very set, like Victor and I had a very clear creative discussion. And then you and I had a very clear business discussion. I obviously had to have both, but he didn't have to be involved with the other part. I love third parties. Like people are always like, why do you have a bookage in or why do you have this? You know, they take all this money or you know, you could do this yourself.

I think it's brilliant and I think it's a super important part of boundaries. I'm doing a talk tomorrow that I'm having to drive to and it's like, I could handle it all myself, but but then it would be weird and I would have to enforce a bunch of stuff that I just get a show up and be the good guy at. Exactly. And you're the talent. This is the thing with Vic. He's the talent. He's a terrible negotiator. He's a Pisces. He's a love bug, he's awful with that. Because we would do it for free if left to our own devices. That's because we love it. And I'm like, but no, because no. And I think that it allows for you as the talent, like you're saying, a speaking gig, to simply be backed. And it really is about having people also experience you

in a particular way. You're the expert. You're not sweeping the floors and putting out the chairs. You shouldn't be, right? Someone else should be doing that. And the same thing with negotiating, the clearest of boundaries makes the most successful businesses. Whether it's you have clear boundaries with your clients

so that they can be your favorite clients and behave in a way that is aligned with what you want, that your subordinates being so clear as to what the expectation is, so they're not guessing, because there's a million things that they could guess and in your relationships. Why not just tell your partner what you want or don't want?

What feels good sexually? What doesn't? What if you do or don't want a present? Why make them guess? Because there's a million things they could do to your body and there's a million gifts that they could get you and get it wrong. How about just can tell them or get your own gift

or the clarity is so loving. And I can tell you conclusively that having healthy boundaries where people a lot of times think that they are the block to amazing relationships. They are not, they are the bridges to epic relationships. No, I think that's right. And I think sometimes if boundaries are so overwhelming or let's say you just really are bad at saying no or negotiating, the ultimate boundary can just be to delegate it to another person or to get good representation or to have an advocate like as they say a person who represents themselves has a fool for a client.

Like you want someone who's really good at that thing. Like I'm very good at what I do. I'm less good at knowing the ins and outs of publishing or what the market rate for speaking is. And so sometimes people to try to save a commission will give, like, you want to save a 15% commission, but you could just hire an agent who can get you a 30% higher price.

Exactly. And a much better deal. Yes, exactly. higher an agent who can get you a 30% higher price. Exactly. And a much better deal. Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's sure excited. But I would just thought it might be good to talk specifically about creatives because that's such a specific one

where creatives are often very creative and that comes at the expense of being having some of these other skills just like business people might be terrible at interacting with creatives and setting up those boundaries or those filters is really important. I think that with creatives for your success you have to have the support systems around you and you have to be so clear at what your skills are and what they're not. There's nothing wrong with Vic not being a good negotiator because he's a phenomenally gifted artist. That's all he has to do is be creative. He just has to be gifted and he is. And you know, into it and doing it and getting it done and being on time and all of those things. You don't need to do all of the things. And I think that giving your advice is great and it's the

same that I would have, which is set yourself up for success by having a team. And even if you just have an assistant, and let's say you can't afford to do that right now, just set up another email to have an assistant. And let's say you can't afford to do that right now. Just set up another email that's like support at wherever terracola.com or even a name, Heather at terracola.com, even if it's just you. Because again, it protects you from being the bad guy. Because you know, I used to be a talent agent before I became a psychotherapist. And in negotiating, I can tell you, there's no way my acting clients and my supermodels could have done that, right? I was the heavy, I was the bad one, or the tough one, so that they could be the loved one

on set and make the 15 grand a day or whatever the thing is. So it really does make sense if you want to be successful, that you hone the skills that you have, be very clear about the skills you don't have, and then delegate that to other people who do have it. No, and I think even like there's such a big transition for creative, so you're Jane Doe, the graphic artist, and because you're Jane Doe, you get hired by these contractors or someone wants you to do their wedding invitation or whatever, and you're charging, I don't know, $500 an hour or something. But the second you become, you know, majestic drawings, Inc, now you can charge $1,000,

because you're not negotiating as a person, you're negotiating as a business, and they're become the depersonalization almost works for you. And so, yeah, it's almost like you're creating certain boundaries, even abstractions around you that work to your financial interest, but if you're not assertive enough to assert them, you won't get them. Exactly. And also, your situation is no one else's problem, right? So, especially if you're

negotiating money, it's not about, my mortgage is really high. I really need to buy and you need to pay more because my mortgage. That is correct, but you would be shocked at how many people are unclear that what is happening in your personal finances has nothing to do with your pricing.

Your pricing is about value. It's about what you're delivering. It's about all of those things. And it's not a valuable argument. I remember my first job I ever had in the Garment Center. I was like a receptionist or something. And it went into my boss and I was like, oh my God, I need more money.

I only worked there for like three weeks. I was like, I didn't realize how expensive I was going to be. And he was like, hello. That is not a good reason to ever ask for a raise Terry. If you've never had a job before, I was like, well, no, I'm only like 20. I have not. I look so embarrassing. But I learned he was like, only asked for a raise based on your merit. I was like, all right, right, right. Well, Robert Green says always appeal to self-interest, never mercy or gratitude, which I think goes to your point about,

don't convince, you know, you can provide context. Yes. The other thing I found too is people will try to bully you on the prices of things, right? So they'll go like, you know, ask you, hey, what is this cost? And you say, this is what it costs, and they'll go, but I only have X.

And it goes, sounds like you can't afford it, you know, ask you, hey, what is this cost? You say, this is what it costs in the go, but I only have X. And it goes, sounds like you can't afford it, you know? Um, it's like not getting this today. Yeah, I'm not like, this isn't for you then, by definition. Obviously, there's times when one can be generous or flexible or whatever, but you'll get that where people will, people will think that what you're worth is a thing that they have say over. And it's not.

It's a thing that you assert, you set your prices. And I think one of the things that, as I was especially with my businesses that I've had to get comfortable with is like, if you're not occasionally bumping up into people who can't afford what you do or don't want it, then you're probably not charging enough, right? So it's like you find, okay, somebody told you, hey, that hourly rate is too high.

But if lots of other people are saying, yes, then that's good, right? You should be pricing certain people out. That's how you know you're getting the most from the other people who are not price conscious, right? And again, to not do that because it feels weird, just know you're taking that money from your children or from your future self if you were to become disabled or you have to retire. There's a cost to you not having those boundaries also. Right, but that's a whole thing especially.

And again, I will say especially with women, especially, and again, I will say, especially with women, especially with helpers, healers, therapists, it's like there's something everyone has their own downloaded blueprint around finances as well. And you know, dollars and cents is never, ever just about dollars and cents. It is a very loaded topic for people. And there's something, you know, we were raised to think that it was unseemly. It's it's unladylike. It's crass to talk about money. And obviously, you can't be successful in business. If you don't do that. So I'm always teaching clients or young therapists, everything is up front. You have a contract up front,

you tell them your cancellation policy up front, and you have an em writing, you send it to them, get clear so that you're not a having to have them remember what you said. But you have to then be able to say, oh, hey, I understand you're canceling today and you know my cancellation policy. So you'll owe the full fee for, you know, yeah, yeah, rather than your time is valuable. It's not free to just be like there was an opportunity of that one hour I didn't sell to someone else

That is exactly right and by the way I died an hour, right? Like I'm one hour less going to be alive for one hour less And so you know, I there was a cost of that I was thinking about that you just mentioned therapists I was going through a pretty intense personal problem a while back and I've read this book. I found this just like someone might read your book and go, I have terrible boundaries. This is the person that I need to hire to get advice on. So I reached out and it was a woman and she was like, you know, I'm not licensed in your state,

but I'm licensed in this state, so I can only be hired as a coach. And I was like, okay, she was like, so that means I'm not covered by insurance. And I was like, okay. And she was like, and I'm not cheap. And I was like, okay, like I, you know, I really need this. So what is it?

And she was like, it's $110. You know, and I was like, this should be $10,000. You know, like our cheap. Yeah. What do I mean? And so it is relative. But I mean, like I wanted to afterwards be like, you're very good at what you do.

And the people who are coming to you, it's not that they're coming from a place of stress that you should exploit, but you are not valuing your service properly. And as a result, you are not... Yes, there are some people who won't be able to afford it, but there's other people who can't afford it, who are not taking it as seriously as it should, because the price is not in remote proximity to the value or the need. Right. Right.

Or your experience is your pricing, consummate to your expertise. And when you know it is, you don't have a problem. I would always give my my things to people and just send it. I mean, like this is it's retainer only, this is what it is per month. And if they're like, oh my god, then they're not for me. Yeah. And I always say, and hey, if this doesn't work for you, I'm happy to refer you to someone else because I am actually happy because either you take the deal that works for me or you don't, you know what I mean? Well, there's that Picasso story. It's probably not true, but you know someone says,

hey, can you do this drawing? And so he does a drawing in five minutes and he says, that'll be, you know, $10,000 and they said, but it just took you 10 minutes. And he said, no, it took me 50 years to do this thing, right? Like, so the fact that you or me are good at this thing and the fact that we can dispatch or solve this problem very quickly, is irrelevant. It's not how much time it takes. It's how much value it creates. It's how much pain does it relieve? And so I think people need to be confident and comfortable with themselves and go,

this is what my thing is worth. And by the way, it's worth whatever you can get people to pay for it. It's not worth, like someone, we sell some products in a daily store, I can someone once, you know, some creepy person who didn't have boundaries, was like, I found out where you made it, and I found out how much it costs. And I think you should charge me less for it. And I was like, that's not how that works, you know, like it doesn't matter what the Nike's costs to make.

It matters what the market says that they're worth. And you have to be comfortable going, it's not for everyone, but this is what the price is. I think you have the flip side of that too, though, in our very instant gratification world of someone who does like a weekend coaching thing, and then it's like, I'm an expert, and I always see someone, dude, if you're under the age of like 40, you're definitely or 35, I'm going to doubt

you're an expert. I'm doubting it. Sure. Or even. It might be, but it's unlikely. It is. I mean, listen, maybe those ages are two old, maybe 30, but seeing these kids who I'm like, you literally graduated college a year ago.

Yeah. You're done an expert on life. Yet. How are you possibly an expert in trauma or any other thing that takes us years and many 10,000 hours to become a real expert at with that experience? You know? No, that's right. You're coaching a thing that you definitely haven't done, right?

You're an entrepreneur's coach and you've never started a company. Also, like, but Bill Belichick wasn't a great football player, but he's been in the game long enough that he now, as you said, has a lifetime of mastery of the subject. So it's, it's, right.

And you have to, those are usually going to be people who are going to take advantage of you. And I guess the flip side to what we're saying is just because it's expensive doesn't mean it has value either. That is correct. You got to find the place in the middle. Hold on, I thought I would, I was like, I didn't know if I should bring, I mean, I have 7,000 more of your books, but I only brought these because I was looking at them before. but that's the one we do every night. I love that so much. Well, I love it so much too, Ryan.

This is the collaboration we did together, of course, and that you helped bring into existence, and I'm so proud of, and I can't wait for people to see the next one, and the new book is great, and this is such an important discussion, and I'm so glad we got to have it. Me too, thank you so much for having me. All right, tell Vika I said hi. I sure will. Thanks, Roy.

Thank you for listening to the Daily Stood podcast. I just wanted to say we so appreciate it. We love serving you. It's an honor. Please spread the word, tell people about it, and this isn't to sell anything. just wanted to say. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.