The Daily Stoic - Rachel Hollis On Learning From The Worst Moments, Measuring Success, And Doing Your Best

Episode Date: July 8, 2023

Ryan continues the second in his two-part discussion with Rachel Hollis about what she learned from the public backlash that she received from an instagram video, how she is currently living her definition of success, why her key to being a good parent is communicating honestly and openly, and more.Part one can be heard here: dailystoic.com/rachel-hollis-on-empathy-and-emotional-acceptance Rachel Hollis is an author, podcast host, entrepreneur, motivational speaker, blogger, and mother of four. Two of her three self-help books, Girl, Wash Your Face and Girl, Stop Apologizing, have become massive worldwide bestsellers, and The Rachel Hollis Podcast inspires a wide listenership with interviews and self-help oriented content. Rachel also founded and grew her own media company, The Hollis Company, which produces books, podcasts, movies, social and live events and physical products. Her work can be found at her website msrachelhollis.com. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, this is Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. This is actually part two of an episode, a unique episode we recorded a while ago. Rachel Hollis had reached out to me on her podcast and she was like, do you wanna drive out to dripping springs? And I said, yeah, I'm sure she was like,

actually, but I'd like to see your bookstore. What if I came to you and I said, well, if you're gonna come to me, why don't we just record a two and one thing? I'll kind of interview you, you kind of interview me, and that's what we ended up doing. And look, I got some interesting comments from some people. Rachel, I think a lot of successful women, especially women who do their work online, and be polarizing, and they have a lot of vocal critics, both from men and women, which I've never really understood why.

It just doesn't seem like that's a good way to go through your life, just constantly judging women you've never met, because they do things differently than you might do them. But anyways, after watching some comments, I thought I'd point something out that we don't touch on in the interview, but news has since come out. Rachel, who was a wife and a mother, she's still a mother, obviously, but was a wife and her marriage was part of her work. She and her husband, Dave Hollis, gave marriage advice, conferences together, and then they got divorced. And people thought this was some sort of profound violation of the trust. And that she was somehow fake or false as a result of this. But when Dave tragically died recently,

perhaps some of the reasons for that split came out, right? I don't need to speculate about his history, you can read about it online if you so choose. But the point is, you never know what someone's going through. You see just a fraction of a person in their public work. And to think that you are entitled to judge them so quickly to be cruel or unkind about them, it's just a shitty way to go through life. And anyways, I wanted to say that before I get into the second half of the interview, if you haven't checked out Rachel's massive bestsellers, didn't see that coming, girl stop apologizing,

girl wash your face, it's all over five million copies, you should. She's got a great podcast that you can listen to, you can listen to this interview there too, if you want to hear her intro about our conversation. And we talk about a bunch of stuff, enjoy the first part of the conversation, enjoy the second one, you'll go to at miss Rachel Hollis to follow her on Instagram or miss Rachel Hollis.com to see her website. And I think we still have a couple of sign copies of her books in the bookstore. And then as it happens, if you are seeing the big chimney that we have at the painting porch, there's a copy of Girl, Wash, Your Face in there.

Because as we bought a bunch of cheap books, that book was such a massive bestseller. I guess I'm going to take it at the Goodwill. And that stuck there in the book tower, which I had fun showing her while she was at the bookstore. Anyways, here's my conversation with Rachel Hollis. in the book tower, which I had fun showing her while she was at the book serve. Anyways, here's my conversation with Rachel Hollis. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wonderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, two of the world's leading hotel brands, Hilton and Marriott, stare down family drama and financial disasters, listen to business

wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. My core value is believing that the only way you and I are going to get better, or Jack, or your team. Any of us is that we have to try stuff and we get it wrong and we have to learn from it. That is a core value of mine. If I wanna grow, I'm inevitably going to do something where I have to learn from it.

And if I believe that's true for every human that I have to also give myself that grace. Sure. It would see, sure. But that was like a huge, it took me so long to get back to a place where I was like, okay, you can mess up, of course you can.

The only real failure here is if you don't learn from it and you go hide out under a rock and you never do anything again. Yeah, or if it, so there's this line from Mark's to Realist, he says it can only harm you if it harms your character, right, and I think he's saying in two ways. So one is like, say something, you screw up, people get mad at you,

and say, like, I'm out, I'll never drag it. And that's obviously not making that kind of character. The other version is like what we're talking about, which is it turns you into a reactionary. It turns you into the thing that those people are criticizing me for being, which happens all the time. Right? Someone goes from kind of controversial to public enemy number one on purpose. They say, I'm going to own this. You called me X. You tried to cancel me for X. Well, now let me really show you. Now you're sort of motivated fundamentally by some kind of grievance.

And that takes people to a very, very dark place when your life is defined by some kind of grievance. Like I'm gonna show them, I'm going to prove them, I'm going to be so successful that no one will ever be able to do something like this to me again. That sort of, I'm going to be so successful, they have to let me in their club. And I think that's what happens to people.

Something happens, it's early in my life, something happens to me in my career. And then this fundamental grievance or wound becomes like the primary motivation lends through which we operate and that never ends well. Right, right. Well, it's also part of acceptance is just sort of like, it is like this happens. What are you gonna do now?

What are you gonna do? Where are you gonna go from here? Yeah, and it's probably not nearly as bad as you think it is. Right, so the thing happened, it doesn't take away all the things you've ever done, doesn't empty your bank account. Well, that's what it's wild, because I actually just wrote a chapter about this, I just turned in my tenth book, Ryan.

You know what a big deal it is. I turned it on Friday. Promptly got a cold sore. I was like, thank you. Thank you. Body for shutting down. But I wrote a chapter on this experience and like processing through everything that was and writing down my emotional response to that time period is crazy.

Like how dark that was for me? I horrible, horrible. And no matter how upset people were with me, it is nothing, not even the tip of how much I beat myself up. Really? Oh my God, because I was like, I've done this for 10 years. because I was like, I've done this for 10 years. I don't understand how I didn't know that this would be upsetting to people. Like I just, I like, I couldn't process it

and what's crazy is a decade, a decade of blogging every day, nine books, 400 podcasts episodes, a 60-second TikTok video, then became the definition of who I am and my work in my own mind. Like, I really don't know that the rest of the world was like, fuck her, like burn it, burn the witch, but I felt like that.

When you were making that video, because it was a response to already controversial. Yes. Did you think, like, I'm crushing it? Did you think this could go the other way where people like, I don't think that's gonna work? I really thought there was something to this idea of like every single woman I admire in history

lived a life that wasn't relatable to anybody else. Like in my brain, like there was always that quote that said, you know, if your life makes sense to other people you're doing it wrong. And so I always was like, oh yeah, that's, and to be totally fair, because I've analyzed this from every fucking angle, I was angry. Sure.

And I should, you should never create what you're angry. But I felt like in this concern, I can tell like a whiny bitch all day, that's fine. But to me, I felt like I'm so tired of getting picked on. Yeah. And I'm sure people look at that and be like, what are you talking about? But like every day, no matter what I say, no matter what I do, I'm so tired of getting picked on. And I was pissed because when I had done a live stream the day before, and someone in the comment section

on the live stream, a woman said, she was really struggling, she had severe depression, and she was like, my house is thrashed, it's so dirty, and I have so much shame about my house. And I was like, okay, well, you got two options. You can either just be okay with the fact that your house is dirty and right now is your time to focus on your health

or if you can afford it, you could have someone come over and help you clean. Yeah. And it was like, then people exploded. How did this totally unrelatable? Why would you give her that advice? And then they started attacking her. And I was like, I'm so sick of this,

even say her, and I was like rising in my chest. And so I, just sat with it for a couple days and I was like, this word, unrelatable, unrelatable. And I was like, oh, I, okay, yeah, I'm not, this isn't. Yeah. I have, you know, 60 employees, I'm trying to hold together during COVID. I have, you know, four kids that I'm trying to raise

and, you know, a little bit about what was going on on the other side. Like, I'm doing all these things. This isn't relatable, continuing to show up. Like, that was just where, that was the intention. And I thought, I'm not the only woman who's probably doing things that feel like this. And just fucking idiot.

Like I was just like, I got a video idea. Did it work? See, this is why you have to have someone post for you. Where there you go. Because they would have been like, are you sure? Are you sure? Or you just don't post in that moment. Brian, I try to make a big turn.

I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn.

I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn.

I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. I try to make a big turn. because no one is saying you can't be angry, you can't have the feelings, which I think is what some people think stoicism is, right? It's that you some, and maybe that is, maybe that's the end state, that's the Jedi master state, where you have transcended emotion, you cannot be provoked, you cannot be hurt,

you cannot be pricked, but I don't think any of us are there. But what we can do is before we take the action out of anger, we try to stop ourselves, we institute some pause, we have some sort of break, we look for the off-ramp, and I just think like there is almost nothing. There's no time that I've ever done something out of anger that I'm like afterwards, but I'm like, so glad I did that. That made things so much better. Yeah, no, 100%. And I think too, it was perfect storm.

We're in the midst of COVID, trying to keep a company together, trying to keep 60 people employed, going through a divorce, hormonally unbalanced, I found out later, just like it was a perfect storm. And what, because I am the person that's like, okay, how is this experience for me?

I wouldn't take it back. I wish that I didn't upset people. I wish that I didn't hurt anyone's feelings or make them feel like this was an unsafe space. Any of that. But if I had to trade what I learned, and I heard this once that like, they asked people what was the worst thing

that ever happened to you. And if you had to give up that experience but you give up everything that came with it, would you do it? The most people would say no. Well, that's the definition of what the obstacle is the way it is, right? Almost everything that was terrible in our lives

ultimately form us into who we are. And so with enough time, we go, that was for the best. Like I wouldn't have chosen that, but but I wouldn't be here without it. And then, so we know that intellectually, right? We look objectively at the course of our lives and we're like, I would not be here if I had not been there. And then we're here, we're in the middle of some shitstorm. And we're like, why is this happening to me?

It's so unfair. How do I stop this from happening? I'm being picked on whatever. And we can't, we can't flash forward and go, someday, yeah. I'm gonna give myself the gift of what I'm gonna feel about this later now. Right, right.

And that's what I try to do to the best of my abilities. I go, okay. Later, there's a line from Freud. He says, like, one day in retrospect, the struggle will strike you as most beautiful. And I go, this is the struggle. This is the thing. Like, this is three chapters into the book that you're not sure you're going to finish and you're thinking about quitting. When you do finish, you're going to be like, I'm so glad I didn't play. Yeah. Or this argument that you're having with your spouse, you're like, is this it? What are we doing?

You know what? This is going to be that thing, right? And I just try to think about that when I'm deep in the shit. I go like, this is that thing that later, however it pans out, whatever direction, that is the beautiful, insidious, weird thing about life, is that we're like, what if I regret X, Y, or Z. But you never regret it because in the future, you look back and you go,

I wouldn't be where I am without it. You find a way to incorporate it into your narrative, into your life, into the story that you're happy with. Yeah. And so you're worried so much in the moment and you don't realize that like in the future that worry of them not exist. So why not just not do it?

Right. I wish we could snap our fingers and get to that place immediately when we're inside of somebody. Well, I mean, even in relationships, like you know the thing you're mad about right now, you will not be mad about it next week, six months from now, you're friends. Like you just won't, right?

You'll be like, why did I care so much about that? And then you're like, by will fight the death on this right now. Right in this moment. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, if will fight the death on this right now. Right, in this moment. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, if you can just turn the intensity down, like if you can just be like,

and if you're traveling a few, I feel like a 10 about this right now, but in three months, I'll be at a four. Maybe I should try to not take a 10 level response. Yeah, to think, it's been over two years, to think that I could ever sit here with you and have this conversation and not have a full breakdown. I'm not exaggerating at all, that I could ever get to a place where I could talk about it.

I all got to I heard this quote and I don't know who's it is, but it's one of my favorites, which is when we can remember something without emotion, it's wisdom. Oh, that's great. Isn't that great? Like, when you're not affected and I just remember, I read that in the midst of everything. And I just remember some day, some day, Rachel, you're going to get to the place where this does not destroy you to think about, where you can just see the things that you learned. Because for me, I really believe 10 years from now, I'm going to look back and understand that the good girl, people, please are in me, could never have continued to do work like this.

If I didn't accidentally do the worst thing I could think of doing, you know what I mean? You know what I mean? I know, but for me, like one of my personal triggers, which I'm sure I do enough, IFS therapy, I'll understand why, is getting in trouble for something you didn't know is bad. This is my worst. Where I thought like you were embezzling money and you should get it.

No, and I knew it. So like it pops up all the time. My boyfriend's like, like, we'll walk through an airport and someone will be like, man, you can't go that way. And I'm like, oh, God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Like, I know, like don't take me to jail. He's like, calm down.

So for that to have happened, like it just broke everything apart in the most painful way. But I remember one of my best friends saying at the time, she was like, people think that you learn the most. Like you go to college, you sit in a classroom, a teacher is talking to time, she was like, people think that you learn the most. You go to college, you send a classroom to teachers, talking to you, she's like, no, we learn the most when something is deeply fucking painful.

And this is deeply painful. And you will never lose lessons that you take out of this because it was so hard to get them. There's a Bertrand Russell quote that I love, that I think about often, he says, the first sign of pen impenening nervous collapse is the belief that your work is terribly, terribly important. And so whenever you think that this thing,

it's like I have to do this, this takes are so high, or when you're saying to people, you don't understand, it's nonsense, and you've gotten sucked into this vortex of ego and bad priorities and self-importance and all of that. It really doesn't matter. In a few years, you're going to think about this and be like, what?

Why did I think it was literally a matter of life or death? Even if I'd done nothing, things would have been fine. Like even if, let's say it had actually been some real cancelable event and you're just like, that's it, she never gets to make anything again. Her social media handles are taken away. You would have been fine. I mean, you wouldn't have ended up under a bridge. Right.

Like, what is the worth? Like, you think about when you read about people who really did fuck up their lives. Like, they got a job at a restaurant. Right. Which like most people are doing without, like you define. But you have this belief that you're the center of the universe and that you cannot function without your work, impact of your work. And that's also what's contributing to why you're so wrapped up and why you've lost all perspective

and why this thing that seems normal to you is so radically different than by everyone else. 100%. How do you bring that to your work? Like you're thinking about not taking yourself so seriously or not being so wrapped up in the importance of what you do, but you do have a massive following. You write books, you have the podcast, you have the bookstore. Like what is your approach to your work now that's maybe different than when you started?

I try one, just like really easy thing, there's just some like, what we're talking about, some distance between doing the thing and putting the thing out. Like Cheryl Stray said this thing one time that I really like, I think about all the time she said there's a difference between writing and publishing. Like writing is the thing that I like doing, that's the crap. That's as important and meaningful to me. Then all the other stuff is publishing. Right. Obviously you get paid for publishing. You don't get paid for writing. You get paid for publishing, so you have to do it.

But I just make lots of stuff, and then I have a team that helps get it to the other side. And I am also involved in the publishing, and I go, this could have been better. What about this? These are the deadlines. I'm involved in the publishing and I go, this could have been better. What about this? These are the deadlines. I'm involved in all that. But the main thing I care about, the place I'm actually the most demanding, my team might disagree, but they're not in my head so they can't actually know. But where I'm most demanding is me sitting in front of the thing.

So that's what I actually care about. That's where all the energy is going. And then I'm chiller about the other stuff. So I think about it one that way. Just from a logistical standpoint, you said you write an email every, is that seven days a week? I mean, I wrote an email upstairs while you were, and I was like, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I'm probably three months ahead on daily stuff. Is it like a paragraph? Is it, I'm positive? He's daily, so he's daily, so he email the daily down one. So they're like 250 to 300 words. Okay. And then it's podcast version of it. I do it in my pocket. You clearly soak email the daily down ones. There are like 250 to 300 words. And then it's podcast version of it. I do it in other means. But the point is, I'm never like, what am I going to say today?

I am making stuff. And then we're figuring out how to use it. And so I think if you're like, what, I have to put up a post today. How did today's post do? Bob, Bob, Bob, then you're in a much more vulnerable place. But if you're just making stuff and you have, for me as a creative, there's a lot of slack and space. I can not feel it today, I can really feel it tomorrow. I'm not like writing to publish.

And so I think that's a really important way to do it. And it insulates you from the success and the failure of it. I think that's like a really important part of it. The other thing is like, I remember when we were expecting, was that our first or second? There was something like, I guess it was our second. Like I got some offer to do something

and it was like pretty soon after we had a kid. I was like, well, I should obviously do this. It's a lot of money. I was like, no, it's like too soon. You can't leave. I was like, if I was an NBA player, I wouldn't have a choice. I would just have to. I'd have a kid and then there's a game the next day.

I'd go and she was just like, are you an NBA player? And I was like, oh, you know, like, Shota was like a horrible, but she was totally right. And then actually like meeting different athletes, you're like, this person is paid 10 times, a hundred times what I'm getting paid. They're doing it for millions of people here. They're one of 500 people in the world

that get to do this thing. And they're way chiller about what they're doing the night. So I think once you see people who are operating at a world class level, you realize like, oh, actually, their true masters are very chill. Yeah. And they're not like believing that they're the center

of the universe, they have a certain humility and lightness about what they do. And so I'm not, I don't try to like affect that. Like I'm pretending to have it, but I do go like the highest form of this is not being a ball of stress and intensity and insecurity. It's being, what should I do today?

You know, like, do I move a couple of brush strokes here, do this and then I'll come back to it later. Like, trying realizing that mastery is a very light place, not a very heavy place. That's good. I was just, I was thinking about this the other day because I was talking about it on a show that the definition of success for me

has changed so much over the last decade. What is your definition of success? That I get to live life on my terms. Like literally, I do. I can't believe that I have the job I have. I can't believe I get to hang out with interesting people and write words and that that pays for my family to take vacations.

That feels wild. I've had a massive company. I've had a little company and our team team today, small but mighty fucking love it. Jack and I have been together for 10 years almost. Like, just that I just like get to do cool shit with cool people. That matters to me. And it used to always be about a number. Like, oh, if I could just make this much money a year, if I could just sell this many books. And I really have experienced the most success financially today when I just went back to old school rage, work and honor blog, that energy of like, I am just going to put my head down and do my best to do really good work.

And it turns out that that's when I've experienced the most success. So, from the outside, like, my Instagram's not growing. I'm not really doing much on social, but the podcast has never been bigger. Because I'm just like, I'm just gonna put energy into this one thing, which just expands the kind of life that I get to live, but it's very focused. It's very centered and right here. It's not this big, expansive thing that I thought success was supposed to be. Yeah, my definition of success is very similar. It's one word, it's autonomy.

Am I in control of my life or not? Yes. And I don't think people realize that the thing they are aspiring to is a kind of a prison or, for me like a good day is I have like almost nothing in my calendar. Agreed. And that's not because I'm not working or doing anything, it's that my day is promised entirely to me and to the people that I want.

So if the calendar is blank, it means I spent time with my kids in the morning, I took them to school, means that I had a good morning writing, and then I had lunch, and I read while I was reading, and then maybe I was like, fuck, I'm just going to go home. And two, like, that's a good day. Yes. If it's scheduled from here to here, even if I'm being paid for every single one of those things,

even if it's all going up into the right, but if you're not in control of your life, like how successful are you really? Yeah. And you're not the president. You know what I mean? The world piece is not, there are some things where you're like, hey, this person is the head of this thing.

Yeah. I'm a general in the Ukrainian army. Like, okay, this is different. But that's not you, you live in Kansas. And success should be, is the car dealership you own, running your life, or is it complementing the life that you wanna have, right? And that's how you should think about it.

I feel like for me, I make my kids breakfast every morning. I do their lunches, get them off to school. I'm there when they get home. I make their dinner. I do bedtime. I do the whole thing and certainly I have to travel for work sometimes. But I don't even know that they realize I have a job

because I work from home. So even this, like we're doing this while my kids are at school. So when they get back, like I just mops home, like there's no upset to that schedule. And I have the ability to do my work from anywhere in the world, which is the greatest gift. I've done podcasts in Switzerland when I was skiing and London when I was there visiting family

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But I was thinking about this the other day like we there's some there's some part of us that knows that like too much success would take you away from that stuff right or we know like if suddenly you had a billion dollars it would fuck up up your kids, you'd have to get security. All these things that would come along with it, right? We know that. Like we know that there's like some level above where we are could be one level above, or it could be 500 levels above,

that like to a point where it would be counterproductive or destructive. And then when you step back and you're like, but what am I working on day to day? The irony is you're working on getting there. Yeah. Like we know like, hey, this is what happens to people when they get there.

Like when their band really blows up or when their, you know, their book sales X number of millions of copies or when their startup gets bought for $10 million. We know the end of getting divorced, their kids get drug problems, they have to go to these private schools, they never see it. Like we know, it's a cliche, we know what it is. And then it's like, so what are you working on?

You're like, trying to get that, right? Right. I'm spending literally all, I'm spending all my energy trying to get to a place that I actually know would be bad. And then if you go, why are you doing that? And you go, for my family, I'm doing it all for my family. The people who actually want you, I got heard this, I saw this, I heard it,

I saw this meme and it was like, who were the rich kids in school? And it was like the kids whose parents picked them up. And you didn't like, you realize now that those parents might have been picking them up because they didn't have a job or it could be because they had total security. But the point was they were like, that was rich because like they get to see their parents. Like, I my parents were successful-ish, but like, we went to daycare after school. And then or I was a lachke. And then, like, I saw my parents for like,

an hour a day, you know? Kind of successes that. Now my parents have a dream life. They live in, like, a tropical island or doing it, but like, they traded. Yeah. The thing that they want now. Yeah. They could have had. And so really thinking about what you want, because that's the other thing is there's no guarantee that in the end you'll have the time to sit around and show. Well, there's no guarantee that you even get to the end. Yes. You know, this is, this has happened in my own life so much. Like maybe four years ago, I lost my brother in law to a hard attack at 46 and then just lost my ex-husband at 47. And neither one of those men ever thought

that was gonna happen. And neither did we. Neither did anybody in the family ever see a moment where they're no longer here. In fact, I remember at Michael's funeral, my brother-in-law, I remember Dave, there was a montage that played and I remember him saying like, oh aren't we lucky, we still have more time for the pictures and the montage of our funeral.

And then at his funeral, Jack, who obviously knew him very well, put together this beautiful montage of his life. And I was watching it at the funeral and just weeping because I'm like, you thought you had 40 more years for this video. You thought that that video was going to have your grandkids. You thought that that video was going to have this future that didn't happen. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. We never fucking know. Have you read Blue Nights by Joan Didian? No, but I will. So this is her table. Is it in the bookshop? I'm sorry, this is... This is her table.

Like, was it the table her family would have like dinner at? And she, there's this paragraph in the book where she's at her daughter's wedding. This is like July 2003. And she's walking on the street. She says, I wonder if someone walking down Amsterdam Avenue saw the mother of the bride and thought, before this year is out, her husband will be dead at their table, and her daughter will be in a medically-induced coma and like leave this world like just a few months later. And so you think these things happen to other people. And she talked about this, her, her, she was sitting in her

kitchen with her husband and he just keeled over and died. And I believe a heart attack, no, a brain in your ism. And she rushed to the, to the fridge where she had like the number for emergency service, like for the hospital. And she And she said, I remember writing that number down and putting it on the fridge, in case somebody in the building needed it. Right? Like you never think it's gonna happen to you. You think these are things that happen to other people.

And so there's this kind of arrogance or entitlement, this idea that we're the exception to the rule that won't happen to us. And this is why we put stuff off. This is why we take people or things for granted. And then it does happen. Yeah. And it's not just loss.

It's like, hey, I have a platform. I get to do this dream job. But also, it can be taken from you. You can fuck it up. The rules of the game can change. You can be the victim of an injustice. Like, you don't know how long you get to do it, so to not enjoy it while you do it,

and we're worse to procrastinate or to defer is a rejection of the gift that is the present moment. Well, it's the myth of someday, right? Someday when the kids are older, someday when I have more time, someday when this, someday when that, there is no someday. There is no someday. There's this moment. And it's one of those things that's so much easier said than done. Of course. Because, like, especially, I'm sure this is real for everybody, but I think especially if you're a parent, there's

all these things we should do. Like, I think I want to say it was Peter Atia was talking about should do. Like I think I want to say it was Peter Atia was talking about when his kids are acting crazy and he gets really upset that someone who was an older parent had told him, the next time that your kids upset you and you want to scream, imagine yourself at 80 years old, longing for this moment. Which is so beautiful, right? Like what a beautiful sentiment. But also, there are times where my kids make me wanna run my head through a brick. I'm just like, kill me, just let me. So it's this beautiful thing to aspire to.

And at the same time, I think it's easy to listen to a conversation like this and be like, well, that's nice, but I don't know how that works in my real life. Well, one thing I, so I totally agree, I may have had that conversation with Peter, because I think about that, because I think about that all the time.

You go, like, you go, some point in the future, you would give literally anything for this moment that one more of these moments that you're taking for granted, like one more bedtime, you would literally be like, I'll change your diapers one more time.

Like the thing you hate, the thing we found the most disgusting, you could, you would give anything to have again. That bit of perspective though, does not make the diaper that you're doing now in a less disgusting or the kid who's just complaining or the kid is doing the thing. For the 500th time, you ask them to stop. So you lose your temper, you get upset, you know, you go to your room or you're like, ah, you know, whatever. What I think about from that is not that I expect some perfection from myself, but I think like, how quickly can I apologize?

Like, how quickly can I go like, that wasn't who I want to be, that's not where I want to leave this, I'm not, I'm not just going to be like, oh, sometimes you fuck it up. And then like, just let that sit in the relationship. Like, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to put in a deposit to try to compensate. However much I can for the debit that I just needlessly took out, right? Yeah. Just realizing that, I just think back to my own child, like, how many apologies I can remember getting

from my parents, like I would probably count it on one hand. Or any like, hey, like I didn't mean that I was stressed out. And how helpful it would have been to see that my parents were human beings who had their own emotions and were subject and victims to circumstance like everyone else did and that sometimes those things overwhelm us and that that's not what life is. What life is is realizing when you have done that and then going okay that's not how it should go. I'm gonna try to do it over. Yeah I saw this video or this real on Instagram where the woman said I think this is potentially the first generation

where kids are growing up with parents who apologize. And what is that gonna do to a collective consciousness as this generation gets older that you see the humanity in that? I could, there was, I cannot think of one apology. Or like I was stressed out. Or even for me, I have three boys, my youngest is a girl, but they all, all of those boys understand that there's a time of the month where I have let,

I just, they understand hormones, they know, and not in like a weird way, but I want them, I'm just like guys. Your mom isn't always rational on top of any normal. I'm just like, this is maybe not the day to start fighting with your sister. Like this just not, and they're like, okay, okay, we got it, we got it, mom.

Like just the realness of, or I'm exhausted, or I don't feel good today. That was not clearly my parents were going through a lot, but they never talked about why they were maybe acting the way they were, which makes me wonder if they ever actually processed why. No. They were acting the way they were,

or if they were just like, we're just about to get on it, keep trucking. Well, I've seen it with my own kids now. My kids are pretty, like, I'm sorry I lost control of myself. We're like, I'm sorry, I love you. I didn't mean to make, like, I think you want your kids to apologize,

take ownership of their behavior, to understand why they acted the way that they did, and the way to do that is to show that you also know how to do that and that you do that. Yeah, that's good. Instead of yeah, expecting yourself to be like perfect or whatever. That's good.

I needed to hear that today, because my daughter's six, and so she's getting to the age where she has better language to say to me. I'm sorry that I you know, she's she's wild human, but she'll be like, I'm sorry that I screamed at you because you asked me to take a bath You know, so she's getting old enough that she can like realize. Oh, that probably wasn't my best behavior But if I'm being honest, when I apologize to her, I don't think that I own the reason for it enough. So I'll be like, well, when you screamed at me, that made me feel frustrated.

And so that is almost like, it's still her fault. And I'm realizing right now in real time, like, oh, well, mommy, sorry that she, you know, couldn't, you know, she did it. Like, didn't have the ability to calm down or whatever. But that's such a good one. It's so different than the way we were raised, at least the way I was raised.

Yeah, yeah. And I think about it with my parents too, they had some idea that like, they had to be like a united front at all times. And so when the other one was being crazy or moody or too strict or irrational or treated or whatever, then the other one would gaslight you as to, you know, that that's like not what's up. So you're 14 and you're like, this can't possibly be about what that. I mean, she obviously just made a mistake and doesn't want to admit it. And then your other parents like, that's not true.

And you're just like, okay, this is weird. And so the idea, I'm not saying you come in your room, hey, you're not the right one. You're like, that's fucked up also. But just the idea that's like, hey, look, she or she is going through X. That's probably what's it play here. And hey, yeah, she took your iPad away

or she took your iPad away. But I bet if you did your chores and you were chill, after dinner, they'd be like, here you're gonna have to have an old care about this, right? And the ability to teach them how to navigate the world and other people's emotions. It's not to say that actions don't have consequences, but that like, if you accept, like we're talking about, if you accept that other person's

emotions and the causes of it, then you can orient your behavior and your response in such a way that it helps you get what you want after. How old are your kids? My oldest is six and my youngest is four. Oh, they're little. Oh, you're still in like a little baby. Yeah, I was gonna, I was curious if you had teenagers. No, definitely not. Separate, beautiful thing.

Yeah, I saw another Instagram about this, that my wife showed me, she was someone saying like, these parents that are like teenagers, and she's like, teenagers are the best. They're the best. They like the music. They're really so funny. They're so fun.

Their friends are interesting. Oh, I love having them. It's like the reason you don't like teenagers is that you're used to be an attireant. And this person doesn't just accept everything you say and they're not scared of you. And that's why you don't like teenagers. Okay, so I have this, the email and the account is daily,

dad. And like when I do see some of the comments, I go like, it would must not be fun to be your kid because you have like some strong dad energy, which is like, that's not how it is. Or the big one is like, you're not being respectful. You're not being respectful. Because they asked a question or they challenged the idea or I always think it's so funny when people bristle against, especially as parents, like you bristle against a kid questioning.

Like, you know, my teenager going, well, why? Why is my bedtime this? Don't you want that? Yeah, I'm like, oh, I can explain it to you. So, you know, you should probably have this many hours of sleep at night. It's gonna take you about 30 minutes to fall asleep. Like, I have no problem explaining it to them

because they're like, okay, yeah, that does make sense. As opposed to my parents' favorite line, because I said so. I saw Jessica Gross wrote this piece of New York Times and she was saying that your kids misbehaving in front of you or like having an emotional meltdown or whatever it is Is actually a sign that you're a great parent not a terrible one because The reason your kids are not doing that the reason they're not asking why or trying to push back or when they're exhausted or scared or frustrated You know like acting out the reason they're not doing that is because they're scared of you,

right? And the fact that they're not scared of you that your house is a safe space, they understand that deep down you have their best interest in heart, that's why they're doing that. But it can be really hard when your kid's having a meltdown to be like, not be like, I'm shitty or you're not how I want you to be.

But it's actually the opposite. It's like the reason your dog rolls over and gives you its belly is that it's fundamentally submitted to you, but it understands that you're not an aggressive, dangerous presence in their life. And the idea that you would want to be that in your kid's life is terrain. It's crazy. That you would want your kid to be scared of you. And that's why they behave. I mean, that'll, I guess, make your life easier in the short

term, because they might not do some stuff like when your back is turned or whatever. But like, at some point, they're going to be 26. And you you're gonna say, hey, what are you guys doing for Christmas? And... Can'ts in the cradle, man. They're gonna say, not coming home to your house. Your house is a fucking, what is it in, your house is a prison on planet fuck or something?

Where was I moving? But like, you know, they're not, they're not gonna wanna see you. They're gonna have their own kids and they're definitely not gonna wanna see you. They're gonna have their own kids and they're definitely not gonna wanna see you. So I think a generation back, and maybe I'm sure this still happens culturally, we were still dealing with children

who had parents that were shitty or did things or all of that, but it was like family as family, we're gonna keep showing up, we're not gonna question this, we're gonna spend every holiday. That is not how the next generation is. That's already not how this one is. So the idea that you would continue to go into an environment

that's unhealthy or toxic, whatever, I think a lot of these parents who are like, you will respect me, you will do these things, are betting on an old mentality. I was actually, I was at a baseball game recently, my son plays a travel baseball. If your kids ever say, I to play a travel sport, just like take out their kneecaps. Just don't, this is going to be your whole life. But I was at a game hour and a half for my house, because that's what we do on weekends. And I was listening to some other mom's talk.

And we're one of the moms said, because all the boys are like really good friends. And one of the moms was like, man man when these boys get to high school We're gonna they're gonna give us a run for their money because they're good boys, but they're like You know pranksters they're loud they're whatever and another mom's like yeah, no for sure And then another mom was like not my son Absolutely not we teach him respect for his elders We just she just like starts going off and I was like, Oh, this is fascinating. You're literally like she for 10 minutes was saying all of the ways that he was required to show up respectfully. And so he would never slip from this. And I was like,

Oh, girl. And instantly I asked my son later, I was just out of curiosity. This boy is he and he was like, Oh, mom, oh my, that's what I thought. That's what I was just out of curiosity. This boy is he and he was like, oh, mom, oh my, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. Because you're creating this like oppression, there's no freedom there. You can't make a mistake, you can't slip up. In any way, like even saying,

ma'am or sir, things that are pretty simple, everything is this great like your being disrespectful. I thought, you are, later you are gonna, he is gonna go to college and you are, lady, you are going, he is going to go to college and you are never going to see him again. Well, I have some empathy for boomers because yet they were the last generation that just sort of had to like, however awful their parents were, like they had to take care of them. And so I think they parented under the assumption

that that would be true and the rules changed. People understood things differently, people learned things, people went to therapy, et cetera. And they're like, no, like, I think about that. I'm like, I'm very cognizant about like, what I allow around my kids. And so the fact that we're related doesn't mean that much to me. And so that's really hard. In the Daily Dad book, there's this song by the highway women,

and they talk about the crowded table. They said like life, like a good life is at the end of your life, it's a crowded table, right? Like people wanna be around you, your family. Yeah. There's the poet, Robert Stafford is, there's some Christmas or holiday or something and they're all there and he and his wife go to bed and they, they, they're in their bedroom and they can hear the kids

who stayed talking about their childhood and their parents like in the other room. And he rolled over to his wife and he said something like, this is the eulogy that we get to hear. And if you think about your life as that, like what, like, if you think about how you want it to be 20 years from now, 30 years from now, 40 years from now, it's almost certainly whatever this thing you're riding your kids about or this thing are holding on to or this judgment you're making or

you know, whatever it is, it's not gonna matter. Like you just think about you would do all you're gonna want in the future is that your kids bring their grandkids around or come and see you or whatever. So what do you the fuck do you care? Will they die their hair or if they're gay or not? Or what do you care? You don't care. I literally care that they are good humans. That's it. And I have, it's so funny because I know a lot of parents who are obsessed with grades. They're already thinking kids in middle school or elementary school and they're already thinking about college and what that is. And my two oldest, I mean the little kids too, but who cares, they're an elementary school, but the two oldest get incredible grades.

And I have no idea, didn't ask that of them, didn't encourage that. I'm just like, are you a good? Don't be a jerk. Like, who are you as a human? And my oldest is so driven to get into a good college. He really cares about that. I'm like, okay. Like your mom's a hippie.

I'll take you on a college door. I have no idea. That's a self-motivated thing, but he has friends. I do this once a month. I have a dinner where all of the teenagers come over, which is the most fun you guys should do. It's so much fun. And we have these really interesting conversations just because their lives are wild as teenagers, but the pressure that these

kids are under to get perfect great the anxiety they have because they got a lot. You're not going to thank you for that pressure later. They're going to resent it. Bonkers. And I'm just I I'm always like, well, what would happen if you did? What would happen if you got a C? And they're like, oh, I'm like, you guys, I swear on everything I hold dear a year from now, you will not I swear on everything I hold dear. A year from now, you will not remember the grade you got on the test that you're freaking out about right now. But there is so much pressure,

which didn't come from them, that's from parents. So I find it ironic that my kids have been given freedom to just be a good person, and they're automatically doing this thing, which isn't necessarily true for every child. But... No, but think back to your life, for you were saying that your business grew

and your things sold better when you stopped caring about certain external results or measurements when you were just doing it because you liked doing it. And that's certainly been true in my life. Like, I've said before, like on my first book, I was like 90% concerned with like how it was gonna do and 10% like, I can't believe I wrote a book.

Like this is my first book. Like I succeeded that I did it. Yeah. And I would like to think that that ratio has come almost all the way around. Like it's flipped like on each book, I 10% have to care like how it did because I got to run back and advanced and the next one and It's flipped. On each book, I, 10% have to care how it did, because I got it back in advance.

Then the next one, and it's nicer to make more money than less money on a product. But I'm 90% like, it was the book that I wanted to write. I put everything that I could have put into it. I fought for the things I needed to fight, and I'm proud of it, and it's good. And if it sells one copy or a million copies, I'm indifferent, right? Yeah. And I, the idea that you measure your success by the input, not the output is,

I think a fundamentally different way of going through the world. But the earlier you pick up on that, like are you someone, are you measuring how your kids do in sports by like whether they win or lose? Not like it's how you play the game, but like, are they the best that they could be at that thing?

Like, are they fulfilling the extent of their potential in this endeavor? Are they trying their hardest? That's what matters. Yeah, it's interesting for my son who plays baseball. He loves it. And he plays every sport. He's he's does all the things. And the achiever in me, you know, more than once I've been like, we can get you a coach.

Yeah. You know, his friends that I'll talk about like, oh, if we're in the, you know, major league and I'm like, I can get you there. I know that we can get a coach. We can do the thing. We could whatever if you want to. Yeah. And he's like, I could whatever, if you want to. Yeah. And he's like, I just really like being on the team. Yeah. He loves his friends, he loves hanging out,

he loves being physically active, and he's very clear on why he's doing this thing. So I'm like, fantastic. Great. Meet out, bro. I'm speaking of the Naval Academy next week, and one of the stories I'm gonna tell, Jimmy Carter was like one of those kits, like the best and brightest of his generation, he gets into

the Naval Academy, he is the only kid from this small town to go places, and he's interviewing for this job on a nuclear submarine, which is like at that time, like the ultimate thing you could get in the Navy. You were like, as you're a soldier and a nuclear submarine, which is like at that time, like the penultimate thing you could get. And maybe you were like, as you're a soldier and a nuclear physicist, like you had to be pretty fun, great. He's being interviewed by this guy named Admiral Hyman Rickover. And Rickover was the head of the nuclear navy at that time. Basically, he invents the idea of ships and submarines being propelled by nuclear power. And he conducts all the interviews himself. So he's this long interview, they talk about all this stuff and he goes,

so how did you stand in your class at the Naval Academy? Of course. I was the 81st out of 500 and Rick over goes, did you always do your best? And he's like so of course, you know, and he stops himself and is like, I know there's that one class and there's this other thing and he's like, and I was a little, you know, I could have done this extra credit thing and I didn't always read all the book. Sometimes I was just just thinking about it because like, no, I didn't always do my best. And then Rick over just goes, why not?

And then he gets up and leaves the room. And that question like fundamentally changes Carter's life. Like, it's not just like, did you always do your best? But like, why didn't you always do your best? And that shapes his life. It's what propels him into the presidency, but also all these other things he does later. Like, the presidency by a lot of people's metrics wasn't a success.

But to him, he was like, I was the best president. I was capable of being. And it insulates you both from the ego of success, but also the sort of crushing disappointment of falling short. It's like, did you do your best? And that's such a, not were you the best? Like did you have the most? Did you you the best like did you have the most did you sell the most did you make the most were you the most famous or well liked or whatever but like did you do

your best that's such a fundamentally different question to measure your life by. Yeah I years ago I went to see it was three or four women on a panel who had all built really big companies. And one of them was older, a mom, her kids were grown, and she was a single mom, building this company that would then be worth millions, but had done it, you know, with the help of a nanny. And she said one of the things that she felt like best contributed to raising children who ended up being good adults and they still had a great relationship was she taught her kids to ask, Mommy, are you doing your best?

So she said, more than one time, I would call home and I would have to say, I'm so sorry, I can't make it home for dinner, I gotta stay at the office, I gotta get this work done. And they'd say, okay, Mommy, are you doing your best? And she was like, you know, sometimes I'd be like, yeah, baby, I am doing my best and I can't come home right now. Right. And sometimes they'd say, mommy, are you doing your best? And she'd say, you're right. You know, I would cancel it. Yeah. I'm on my way. Yeah. And our members, she had to be in her 60s at that point. And she'd talk about it and she got emotional.

She was eyeswild up with tears of like teaching a seven-year-old to ask you, are you doing the best that you can in this moment? Then also taught that child to ask themself that question. Yeah, so you did. It also reminds me of a little trick that I use for myself is what's 1% more. Was 1% more that you can give in this moment. Was 1% more that you can add to this workout

with 1% more that you can use for your health right now. It's sort of that Jim Quick idea that will never just read one page. We'll never just practice the guitar for 60 seconds. But if you challenge yourself to just go, what's 1% more effort right now? That 1% stacks on top of each other to become such a better way of doing anything that doesn't feel daunting at the time.

Yeah, like when I'm writing my sort of criteria for the day is usually like, did I make some kind of positive contribution to the thing? So you write a criteria for the day, where you explain. No, no, if I go like, did I have a good, like, did I do my job today? It as a writer, it's like, I moved some stuff around. Maybe I wrote 20 pages, but like the, the, I did the job, if I made a positive contribution today. And that can be very small. So when you shrink, what that contribution has to be to be, you're more likely to hit it. And then if you just do

that consistently over a long enough time, like work comes out of the other side. So I think, you know, obviously there's also this idea of perfectionism which can be very crippling. But if you're just like, Hey, like I did something positive today. Like I did one good thing. I made one contribution that I go, that's what I'm trying to do. That's what it's like consistency versus intensity. Right, like we think, oh, I'm gonna go get in shape.

I'm gonna go, I feel like I might be quoting you to you which is scary me a little bit. Okay, this is not your quote. This is one of my fears I read so much. So I'm like, oh God, if you're like, I know I wrote that six years ago. But the idea that we get really excited about a goal and we're gonna change our life in some way.

And so you're like, I'm gonna go get a gym membership and I'm gonna go do three hours because it's the new year and I'm pumped. And then you go again tomorrow and you do one hour because it's the new year and you're pumped and then it all fizzles away. That's intensity, but what is actually life changing is consistency.

Sure. It's doing small amounts that add up and stack one on top of the other that take you to the next level of wherever it is you're trying to go. Yeah, and it is kind of shocking how quickly it adds up. So, I think people, I'll talk to people and they're like, you know, I'm trying to write this book and it's like, you don't try to write a book. You are writing a book or you're not. Right?

Like, are you doing it? And then eventually you will have done it. It's not this thing you do in a fit of inspiration. It's not a marathon that has like a starting gun and then it's over in three hours. It's like an ongoing thing. And then you start the next one right after. And then you just keep going. Do you write one a year?

That's kind of in the thing I've been on for more than 10 years now. And then I finished a book in January or December like I finished the draft of this, I'm doing this four book series on the Cardinal Virtues. And so I finished what is the third book. And I call my publisher and I was like, this is supposed to come out in September. I wanted to come out the next September. So I took the year, which I've never done. And now I'm wrestling with like what I still have work I have to do,

like just generally as a person, but I'm wrestling with what it means to be a person that is not in the middle of writing a book. That's a new, that's a feeling I haven't had since my early 20s, which is weird. Yeah, when I published my first book, I went on a tear and I just kept going, kept going. And I think I definitely got to the place where I was burned out with what I was doing.

Also because I realized in retrospect, I was doing too many other things. I was on the road every week speaking and doing keynotes and I had a podcast and I had a business and all this stuff that really didn't fill the well. So there was like nothing that I could and I actually wrote an entire book, an entire book that I scrapped. Because I was this? This was 2020. So the beginning of 2020 is when I would have started edits

on that and it was also, you know, the world was exploding and I was just like, the world's amass, I hate what I've done. And in retrospect, I should have like edited it's amass, I hate what I've done. And in retrospect, I should have edited it and worked with it, but I feel like it all happened exactly as it was meant to. But that book was written. There just wasn't anything left.

Like I just, I had nothing to share or talk about because I was emotionally depleted. So to get to this place of turning in the book last week was so huge for me. Because I was like, you know when you turn in a draft and you're like, this is shit. But there's something here. Like I think there's something here. And if I do nine edits on it, then there will be,

yeah, it'll be. You trust the process because you've seen, yeah, you've seen C minus get turned into a NA 100 percent. This is the problem I think for anybody who hasn't done basically anything, is they're seeing the A and they don't understand that it starts with like I'm embarrassed that my editors reading this man. I literally she was like, let me read it a couple times and then let's have a call. I was like, two times, are you sure? Now, once you've done it, you realize all the different valleys and peaks that go through the process and then you can just trust it.

Like when people say, trust the process, it's very hard to trust the process that you've only been told about. But you do, the first time there's a whole leap of faith because people have been through it or like, no, no, this is the road, this is you go, yes, you're going to feel like you're going in the wrong direction at some point, but if you just keep going eventually, it gets there. So you do have to have that kind of trust. But then later, it's much easier to trust the process

because you're like, you start, and then at some point you finish. If you just don't quit, at some point you finish. And to have that is good. But for me, this thing, what happened was basically, it's like, I just did this book on discipline. And actually, I had a chapter and I was talking about Joyce Carol Oates. And every time she finishes a manuscript, it sits in a drawer for a year. She sits

on it for a year. She thinks about things. She tweaks, you know, she keeps notes, but then she comes back to it in a year. And I remember just going like, that is so cool, but obviously not possible. Right. And then I was just like, if I can't do that, or if I can't not, right, then how can I have any credibility to talk about this? Like, if I don't have the discipline to take things slower, to pause, or to give myself space, that I'm kind of full shit. And so I Took I'm taking the I'm like three months into it. So I'm still I'm still like I'm still like yeah Adjusting to the jet lag or whatever of it, but it's it's a very different feeling and you could still right I mean so right to do emails. I write articles. I'm still and I'm researching for the next but I'm just not

Like I should be start if If this book had gone through the editing then I would be getting ready to start in June the fourth book in the series and To just not have that looming in my mind is both very freeing but then also very Like Disorient because I don't it you know but then also very, like disorient. Because I don't, you know, it's like, hey, football season starts at this time. And then you report and then this. And then, you know, that's just not there.

I mean, you get, you know, you get very used to being in a certain five or zone. You have a rhythm, absolutely. Well, this was awesome. Thank you. Oh my gosh. Of course, this was really rad. Sweet. And and very easy. I always feel like when it goes so fast, it's like, okay. That's a good time. Yeah. Good time. When you're like, you look at the clock. It's been like 22 minutes. Yeah. Oh god. That's the worst. When you're like, whenever I'm not present with an interview, where I'm like, holy shit, like, I better come up with what we're gonna talk about next because people are answering like with three words.

You're like, oh no. Well, that's a rule for me. Like, you know you're living the life that you should be living. You're working on something that's meaningful, important when you forget what day it is. Yeah. Or you lose track of time. Yeah. And if you don't, if you have a very keen sense of like, you know, I've been here for

one hour and 12 minutes and my shift ends. Yes. And this, like, that's a sign that way you're doing sucks, and it's sucking your soul out of you as you're doing it. And so it's good. If you're not losing track of time, that's a bad sign. And I think about that with the pandemic, like, you know, when we lose track of what day it was,

people are like, this is so bad. I was like, no, this is what happens when you're just present with your family. Like you're not going anywhere and you're not trying to go anywhere and you're not measuring yourself against other people, you're just like, what are we doing today? And it's like pinking the brand and saying, then we do every day, you know?

You're gonna take it out of the world. Yeah, I was just here. You're just fucking here, That's what we're doing. So I'm thinking back, I was just actually just writing something about that about how they're, remember the early days, so three years ago, today basically, we would have been waking up and being like, what are we gonna do all day?

Like you felt like you had so much, like we were doing hobbies, and then you'd be like, oh, I'm gonna zoom with like my, this kid I went to high school with for two hours and then I'm also gonna get all my work done. It was a beauty in that time. The day is the same length now. Right, right. But today you're like, where did the time go?

And so what happened, I think I'm okay. During COVID, the gift of that time period was that I realized how much time I wasted. Driving back and forth to an office, meetings, oh my God, meetings traveling to the gift of like holy crap, my productivity which should be me creating stuff, should be the only metric of what I can do, other people can do other things in the business, but I'm the only one that can record a podcast or write these words. And when I realized that I could be so productive

and be present at home and be the kind of mom I want to be, and I was like, I will never go back. I'll never go back. But then you do go back, it creeps, and you gotta start over again. I mean, managed to maintain a pretty good system of like, we see each other when there's a podcast shoot. We have a weekly zoom where I was like, how's everyone doing? Your ski

trip was good. We are on Slack. That's just how we do the business. And honestly, Jack could be on a beach like drink and pinnacle out as long as the videos get edited. I don't care. No, totally. So yeah, there was a gift in that for sure. All right, I'll start because we'll just keep talking forever. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. you can listen early and add free with Wondering Plus in Apple podcasts.