The Daily Stoic - Ramit Sethi on How to Generate Wealth

Episode Date: November 19, 2022

Ryan talks to personal finance advisor, entrepreneur, author, and host of the I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast, Ramit Sethi about helping couples grow stronger through finances, the importance of a personal definition of “being rich,” healthy spending habits, and more.Ramit Sethi is the NY Times best-selling author of I Will Teach You To Be Rich, founder of GrowthLab.com, and owner and co-founder of PBworks. He grew up in Fair Oaks, California and graduated from Stanford University with a BA in Science, Technology & Society with a minor in Psychology, as well as an MA in Sociology (Social Psychology and Interpersonal Processes), also from Stanford. Using his books, podcast, websites, and speaking engagements, Ramit strives to help couples and individuals learn how to live their personal version of a Rich Life.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoke. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stokes. Something to help you live up to those four Stoke virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have. Here on the weekend when you have a

little bit more space when things have slowed down be sure to take some time to think to go for a walk to sit with your journal and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi I'm David Brown the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday.

Welcome to another episode of The Daily Stove Podcast. I don't know if you guys know where I'm from, but I grew up in a town called Fair Oaks, California, which is just outside Sacramento. It's like a sort of LA where it's this like a series of suburbs. And I went to a middle school with the brother of today's guest as it happened. So we we have a shared history if you will and I happen to be an enormous fan of his podcast. I listened to it Constantly especially when I'm traveling for speaking. I always download an episode and I listen to it on the plane I'm talking about Rameet Setti who wrote this great book. I will teach you to be rich, no guilt, no excuses, no BS.

Just a six-week program that works. I wish he updated just a couple years ago. We sell it in the daily store. But I've been a big fan of Remete's work. I'm a big fan of his thinking. He's changed some of my thinking about money and finances. I'm perfectly stoic by any means. He's got his own way of thinking about it. But as Asa Senka says, we should read and learn from everyone. I think I classify, I repeat, as more of an Epicurian, but I think he and Senuka would have gotten along also. And I wanted to have Rumi back on because I've just loved the I will teach you to be rich

podcasts. Seriously, I talk about it with my wife. I share episodes with friends. People ask me for money advice. This is one of the podcasts I recommend. Remeath's just a super smart, super interesting guy. He's great on social media. You can follow him at,

Remeath on Twitter and Instagram. You can go to his website. I will teach you to be rich. He has a great newsletter. And there's some really provocative questions in today's episode that I think will stick with you. And I'm really happy to welcome Rameet Saty back on the podcast, shout out to his brother Manish, who I grew up with, and went to many classes with in middle school.

And thanks to both of them for being so formative in my life, enjoy. my life, enjoy. Well, I'm very pumped because I like your show so much. It is like one of the only podcasts that I listen to religiously. Well, thank you. That is high praise coming from you. Well, you know, like, you know your friends, they do work all the time, everyone.

And you're like, it's good in theory, I like it, but you realize that you're not actually the audience for it. And so you can like respect that it's good, but you don't actually like read their newsletters or their books when they come out or whatever. I actually listen to your show like all the time. Oh my God. I mean, I, because you text me sometimes, you go,

I can't believe they said that. I go, I know. And you won't believe what we said off that I couldn't even air. So yeah, I appreciate it. It's, I mean, you and many of my podcasting friends were telling me for over seven years start a podcast. And I was like, yeah, okay, but I don't have the right idea. So I just wait, you know, I don't play poker, but I would imagine it's like playing poker and just waiting.

Well, Tim is a good example of this. He's not usually the first on a particular platform, but when he does it, he's one of the best. And I think what's great about your show is it's not like pretty much every other show. It's a very specific format, and then it's in a category of one. Like, I don't know.

There's no other podcast where I'm like, sometimes I listen to this one, sometimes I listen to this. Yours isn't in what I listen to interchangeably with anything else. It's like it's own thing and it owns that category. Well, thank you. You know, I just remember, I remember my own need.

I wanted to be able to listen into couples, talking about money, and there's just nothing out there. And all the advice I got, particularly at the more advanced levels, it always happens behind closed doors. It's friends texting, or it's lawyers offices. And I'm just like, no, I want to talk to people in $800,000 of debt, and they don't know if they can afford to have kids. And I want to talk to the guy whose wife of 21 years is about to divorce him because he's

so cheap and it turns out they have $13 million. Well, I want to talk about that guy because that's one of my favorite episodes. But something I remember texting you when I was listening to a bunch of the episodes in a row, and I was just, I just had dinner with my wife and a friend of ours, and we were talking about this, and I was, found myself saying the same thing and she totally agreed so I want to go back to this but I have found that like of most of the couples that I know the woman has it together and the dude is just a mess or an idiot right like and I found that to be not exclusively true on your podcast,

but I would say more often than not, the wife is just rolling her eyes, and the dude is just like, got these basic issues that he hasn't dealt with like in therapy, in his career, in life. And I wonder if it's a generational thing, but I just find it, it's like I just don't know enough guys

who are like, let's say 30 and beyond, that like have it together. I remember you texting me this. I don't really agree, okay? I think there are definitely women who have it together. I hear them all the time on my podcast, and I will agree that usually it's one partner who wants to come on.

They're the one who fills out the application. They are kind of nudging or even dragging their partner along. But I also think that there are plenty of guys, and you have to remember that men talking about money happens in a different way than women talking about it. Huge, huge, huge difference. Women are overrepresented, statistically in self-development.

There's a lot of things that men do, but they do it differently, or they don't do it at all. So I don't really agree, but I think it shows up, like what type of person is more likely to reach out for help? In general, probably women.

But that's actually maybe a way, a more elegant way of saying the same thing, which is like, for instance, the statistics show women graduate from college, like every, out of every three people that graduate from college, two of them are women. Your point that women are more interested in self-development, there does seem to be a kind of, not just a togetherness, but like a sense

of getting it together being important that is culturally true for women in a way that I think if men shared would be better off. That's interesting. That could be. I mean, I think that, you know, there's a lot of, we could look at it a lot of different ways, historically maybe women had to, certainly in different cultures where the income inequality is different. You see totally different career choices, like for example, in India or Sweden,

a variety of different things. But needless to say, there's definitely differences in the way people process money, talk about money, gender, cultures. Like when I went to India and I did a little impromptu event there and I talked about stuff that I would never talk about in America. Questions about, hey, I live in a joint family and whenever I get my paycheck, I'm supposed to give it to my mom because she's the matriarch and she kind of disperses money.

People in America be like, what are you talking about? You're not taking my check. And also, why are you talking about living with your mom? I don't live with my mom. So, joint family system and all the cultural things that come with it totally different than we have over here.

I find that so fascinating because you and I grew up in the same town and our experiences were very, very different in that also we've talked about this when we were talking about Haasun's comedy special. I feel like you actually had more, like your culture was more together, had pressure to get it together more than my culture did. And so something like the humor and stuff, I'm like, what are you talking about your parents

pressure on you to be a doctor? Like that wasn't one my parents were to. Well, I mean, I think that's probably true and there's a lot of historical reasons, right? So my parents growing up in India, it's like if you are not the smartest one in the school, then your chances of improving yourself socio-economically are extremely low.

So for example, my dad came from big family. He was known as the smart one. And that's another thing. They just tell you like, oh yeah, he's the smart one. He's kind of the dumb one, but he's good at like fixing tools. Like it's well known who each kid is. Now, good or bad, that's how they talk.

My dad was the smart one. He did well on his tests. He came to America, you know, did his engineering degree, MBA, went back, married my mom, came back here. And the stakes are high in India, right? The stakes are high. Here, the stakes are high, but they're not that high, not as high as other countries. Like, okay, you don't get a great job, but you still have Netflix, you still have a roof over your head, you still have a car. In some cases, you have a car like the truck guys I talked to, they can't afford their trucks, they go,

no, I need a truck. I go, why do you need a $75,000 truck? They go, dude, so I can pull my trailer. I go, you're broke. But that's a whole nother story. Yes. So I do think that we probably had different experiences. The question is, what happens to my future kids?

What are the stakes like for them? Well, yeah, because my mom's parents were immigrants from Europe. So she had that kind of pressure. And she would have probably much more related to your experience. And then even just one generation removed. It's like follow your passion, you know?

Yes. It's like you're beautiful. Follow your passions. Don't worry, you could do whatever you want. It's fine. And I'm like, I didn't grow up like that. In fact, if I got an A- it was like, what's wrong with you? Yeah.

The funniest thing, I remember this, I don't know, you just remember these funny things about childhood. And like, it's not that you're, I don't know, you just remember these funny things about childhood. And like, it's not that your parents, I was surprised that my parents were very driven. They really, I was studying spelling bee books for two hours a day with my mom. That's why I'm so good at spelling. I love spelling bees, by the way,

because they're the purest form of meritocracy. It's like there's no genetic advantage or anything. It's just literally like who can outwork the other person? And Indians are amazing. Plus there's a cultural cachet. Like people would literally say, oh, did you know that person? She won the Scripps National Spelling Bee.

It was like a, they were like Michael Jordan to us. But I remember as I got older, my parents, they pushed us really hard, but then, you know, as like a teenager, you reveal what you're good at and what you're not good at, it starts to become clear. I was not that great at math. I was probably the worst in my class. My friends were all, they'd gone to Pershing.

They were a little more advanced. And I would come home and my mom would see me walking down the steps of our junior high. My head would be down. And she knew that I got a bad grade on my math test. And it was actually cool to see them ease up because they knew that I was trying. I was really trying, but I just wasn't good.

I didn't have the intellectual horsepower that others have. And they didn't, at a certain point around eighth grade, ninth grade, they realized it, I realized it. And they were just kinda like, okay grade, ninth grade, they realized it. I realized it. And they were just kind of like, okay, try your best, but we understand. And that was a whole new chapter of my parents. I had never encountered before.

It was pretty cool. I'm sure that was hard for them. Probably. I don't know. It's a good, that's a good question. Like, to get to that point, to not, to not be hard on you, to be, like, we have to accept this thing. I imagine that challenged Uh, it would have been easier to to go the other way totally and that's why I respect I respect that a lot especially my dad because math

Come so easy to him. He's like just just do the rotate the conic sections. It's so easy and I'm like Ah, I tried for four hours and I still don't understand this Well, you know, it's funny to go back to the self-development thing because I think because of what I write about And I'm like, I tried for four hours and I still don't understand this. Well, you know, it's funny to go back to the self-development thing because I think, because of what I write about and because of stoicism's reputation, people assume it's very broy, right?

So they assume my audience is like totally all male. And actually, I hear almost more often from women. And I wonder how much of it actually goes back to what we're talking about, which is like, if I had daughters, let's say 30 years ago, and I was getting ready to send them off into the world over those intervening 30 years, I probably would have had to inculcate in them a certain set of tools, a willingness to explore and take advantage of every extra resource. This idea that, hey, things aren't going to be handed to you.

You're not going to get the benefit of the doubt. You're really going to have to work for this. Probably creates a willingness to explore these tools, whereas if you have been the dominant majority for centuries, you get used to coasting and then you get angry when things aren't every door isn't open to you. And maybe that even explains some of the differences between men and women on this sort of like getting it togetherness.

Definitely, certainly racially, we see that a lot, you know, the minute that anyone says, well, hey, we're not trying to bring you down, but we are trying to bring other people up. The dominant group will resent that incredibly and, you know and predictably resort to violence and things like that. So I will say that one of the biggest topics among my parent friends, especially my Indian parent friends is, we were raised a certain way,

but do we want to raise our kids that way? There are definitely costs that I now see as an adult. I happen to thrive under it. Like, I, things turned out pretty good and I kind of found a sense of humor about the funny things my parents did, but I also think there are some kids who don't react that well to it.

And understandably so. So anyway, that's a hot topic. Well, I want to talk about one of my favorite things of our podcast, so I think there's to be fruitful for people, which is what I like about it is that you basically don't put up with bullshit from people. And so I've noticed on your show, because you've talked to so many different couples, you've got so many emails over the years, you basically know all the things that people say to dance around stuff. So it'll be like, you know,

I'm not cheap, I just love a good deal. You know, my favorite one that you call out is they go, I guess what we really need to do is have a conversation. And you're like, we're having a conversation right now. Let's just do it right now. So I'd be curious, what are some of the things that you see holding people back like lies or scripts that people tell themselves that maybe you're worth kicking around here.

I think the biggest commonality is that couples never, they never have a shared rich life vision. And they don't even think about it. They don't wake up and say, oh, we don't have a rich life vision, it never occurs, they don't even know what it is. So instead, what they do is a series of increasingly peculiar behaviors. I'll talk to a couple that's been married for 35 years

and they are agonizing over their bill at Target and they're multi-millionaires. I mean, I have this conversation and I'm like, what's going on here? And they're like, he just says he always makes me feel bad about Target and I listen because you've got to let people get it all out. But when we trace it back, there are gender elements. There are parental out the way they were raised with money.

And there's just simply no vision. So that's number one. I think next up would be it's comfortable to go back to your corner. So couples will go on repeat with an argument they've had. would be it's comfortable to go back to your corner. So couples will go on repeat with an argument they've had and they're very fluent at it. It's actually amazing to listen to because I'm hearing it for the first time, but I can tell that they have recited this argument

literally hundreds of times. And you can actually watch the joy in their face. So one of them will just be like so joyful, sometimes spiteful, which is a little bit entertaining to watch, but they're just on a roll. Then the other person goes, well, I can't believe you said that because blah, blah, blah, and I let it go for a while because I'd like to hear it. But then I'll gently interrupt and I'll ask him a question, like, what are you getting out of this?

And that really stops him cold because they go, nothing. I go, no, no, no, that's a bit of a facile Yeah. And that really stops them cold because they go, nothing. I go, no, no, no, that's a bit of a fast aisle answer. Like, push it. What do you think you get out of it? And I let them unpeel that onion and oftentimes, they'll say something brutally honest. They'll say, well, I get to be right. Yeah.

And I go, yes. I like being right as much as anyone. But I at least need to know that because that can produce really dysfunctional behavior. That's a super good question you ask all the time because people often have these behaviors that they know are a little unrational or they know is causing them problems or isn't fun or they know they've outgrown it and you go, okay, but what are you getting out of it?

And it forces them to almost everything we do has a reason. It's even if it's irrational, there is a logic to it. I love that question. Yeah. You know, sometimes it's like, you can't expect people to know what drives them. And this is a profound thing I learned when I studied psychology,

which is that we all believe we are rational robots. Give me the information and I'm going to make an informed decision. I hate that. First of all, people do not react like that. And this idea that goes across governments and journalists and experts, they go, we just need to give people the information, let them make an informed decision. That's not how people work. People are more likely to work based on vibes.

Oh, what's the vibe? Yeah, cool. I mean, do we see that right now? People have all these feelings about certain states and crime and this and that. And when you show them the data, they're just rejected or they just pivot to another topic. It's all about vibes.

And so when you understand that people do not behave rationally, and in fact, we're often guided by something that our mom or dad said literally 40 years ago. Suddenly, it becomes way more interesting. Okay, what happened? Why is tipping such an issue for you? What's going on here? And you know, one of my favorite episodes just happened recently.

There's a couple. They have been dating for one year. And she's Connie. She says, I want West to pick up the check. I go, okay, cool. And then he picks up the check. He goes, yeah, I'll pick it up. And then she says, no, I think you should invest in your Roth IRA. So she wants to do this thing when he does it. She says, no. And then it turns out that he started a business, he pays himself $2,000 a month, and she makes $200,000 a month. She literally makes 100 times what he makes,

but she wants him to pick up the check. Now it's fascinating when I ask him why, and she said, well, you know, that's when I was a kid, they used to give the check to my dad, my dad paid it, turns out that her mom actually made more than her dad. So we're just unpacking and unpacking. This just, people listening, you can hear something

of yourself, whether it's gender issues, whether it's being an entrepreneur, whether it's out earning or under earning your partner, and you just can't stop listening. Well, I just interviewed Dr. Sue Johnson, who wrote this amazing relationship book. She created a emotionally focused therapy. She talks about this dance.

Basically, what happens in couples is that she says, it's all a dance about attachment. Actually, F. Scott Fitzgerald said this once. He said, all of life is a progression towards and a progression towards and a progression away from the words I love you. Basically the idea that we reach out and then someone pulls away and then they reach out and then we pull away. And this is the dance we do.

And what I thought was so interesting about that episode is what that woman was doing was even more than the general rules is she wanted her husband or boyfriend to do a thing. But actually she really wanted him to set her up to judge him, right? Like she wanted him to do a thing, so then she could say her thing, which is why aren't you doing this? Like what she actually wanted was the cycle, the fight.

And he was not engaging and she wanted him to engage. And so it's interesting to then ask, okay, what is this doing for you? You wouldn't think that any couple would want to fight, but sometimes that is what we want to do. And that's the lot of time we've gotten trapped in. We've got a lot of times. And almost always those couples, particularly the person who wants to fight more, there's

usually one, their parents fought. And so they think that fighting is love and or fighting is normal. So sometimes I'll ask questions like, um, can you think, uh, I'll ask them, have you ever felt good about money? And they'll say, no, I'll say you mentioned that you're, you don't pay attention to money. What if you did, what's the opposite of paying attention? They go, well, I don't want to worry about money. I go, oh, okay. So it's paying attention. It's either ignoring it or it's worrying. I go, and then sometimes I'll use myself as the example. Now, I have to say that the most hilarious thing of doing this podcast is that you have to fill out

an application, you have to be screened, you have to go through a lot, you have a lot of chances to say no of all the people who finally make it to me. Like hardly any of them ever read my book. Yeah. I go, you guys are like struggling with this simple investment question for the last 25 years. Like, have you guys read my book?

They're like, oh no. I'm like, oh, if only there was a book that told you exactly what to do on page 211. But at this point, I don't even judge. I'm just like, some people will not read a book. It's just not the way they learn or they have some barrier in front of them. But I find it absolutely fascinating

that the answer to your quote, what is purported to be your question could have been in front of your face at a public library for 20 years. But we would rather stay comfortable and fight and argue and agonize and complain than to get the answer. Some people feel terrible when they run. I feel terrible when I don't run. And when I run now, I wear 10,000's training gear. I love their stuff. I just got some in the mail yesterday.

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most comfortable training shirts you've ever worn from 10,000. Hey there listeners, while we take a little break here, I want to tell you about another podcast that I think you'll like. It's called How I Built This, where host Guy Razz talks to founders behind some of the world's biggest and most innovative companies, to learn how they built them from the ground up. Guy has sat down with hundreds of founders behind well-known companies like Headspace, Manduke Yoga Mats, Soul Cycle, and Codopaxi, as well as entrepreneurs working to solve some of the biggest problems of our time, like developing technology that pulls

energy from the ground to heat in cool homes, or even figuring out how to make drinking water from air and sunlight. Together, they discuss their entire journey from day one, and all the skills they had to learn along the way, like confronting big challenges, and how to lead through uncertainty. So if you want to get inspired and learn how to think like an entrepreneur, check out how I built this, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon or Wondery. When you ask like what is not reading the book doing for you, it's allowing you to stay as you are. And there's some part of you that suspects actively looking at exploring something.

This is why people don't only read certain kinds of information and not other, you know that if you go over here, it might be dangerous territory that forces you to change your mind or change your behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that profound? I mean, I have noticed that most people would rather keep doing what they're doing, even if they are failing at it,

then change to something where they have the potential of failing. And it occurred to me when I used to train at this one gym, and there would be people there who were sort of on the same treadmill, literally on a treadmill, for years. And basically like just that was that, no real physical change. Now, as I pointed this out to our friend Ben, and Ben was that, no real physical change.

Now, as I pointed this out to our friend Ben, and Ben was like, well, maybe their goal was to not change, was just to look the same, which could be. But it is a pretty aggressive gym, like people go there, it's a certain type of gym. And I thought to myself, I used to do the treadmill. That was what I knew, because, you know, I was doing the spelling bee.

I didn't know how to do deadlifts. So I was over there on the treadmill because it was safe. Yeah. But if I had, and I wasn't getting the results, I wanted, but if I had gone over to the squat rack and had the chance of failing, that would have been scarier. Yes, you might have looked stupid,

but it also might have solved your problem. Yeah. Well, I definitely would have looked stupid. What I really, when I moved to New York many years ago, I was ready, I was inspired by the people around me because everybody looks really good in New York. And I was like, man, how did everybody learn how to dress and everybody learned how to just be physically fit? Even still, it took me about four months

to get the courage to walk across the street into the gym and ask for a trainer, because I knew if I did that, then I would actually have to follow up. Yeah, the other question I think you asked sometimes in the podcast that I like is you go like, and you hinted at it earlier, but you say something like, where does that come from? Where does that belief come from? Right? Because sometimes we just take for granted. The stomachs, what I love about them is they say every time you have an impression, every

time you have a belief or opinion, you have to put it to the test. You have to ask yourself, is this really true? Or is this something that I just made up? Is this just my first impression? And a lot of the things that people, you know, they've clearly said it to their partner or to other people in their life a million times and no one's ever challenged them on it. You say, but wait, wait, let's explore that. Is that actually true? And it's shocking how often the assumption has no basis in reality whatsoever. It's quite a moment. I love these moments, right?

They're so poignant. Someone will say something, just rattle it off. And they'll say something like, well, yeah, you know, like if you buy a house, at least you're not wasting money on rent. And I'll go, oh, is that true? And the entire cognitive apparatus, the entire house of cards falls apart with one question. They go, well, I mean, that's what that,

that's what that Realtor told me. I go to a fucking tick financial advice from a Realtor, but we'll get into that another time. And I love, I personally am delighted when I have a long held assumption where someone gently points out to me, hey, have you ever thought about it like that or like, what if you flipped it and inverted it? What would happen? Sometimes some of my most interesting examples of that in business are where you think the revenue is flowing one direction and it actually flows the other. Like in a partnership like maybe I'm paying this company but actually it turns out behind the scenes they're paying me. It's like whoa

that's crazy. Well I find the similar level of delight with individuals. And if I have learned that, first of all, most people don't take that sort of cognitive delight. It takes a certain sort of, you learn it in college, you know, you may learn it with your intellectual cerebral friends. But for the most part, most people are not sitting around discussing cerebral ideas and batting around intellectual ideas. Ooh, I'm so delighted that I was proven wrong. That's not how it goes. Therefore, the style in which you bring it up is really, really important.

I won't do that in the first few minutes of talking. There's a structure to getting people to open up. And a lot of it is just asking people questions that they know the answers to. But they trust me because they're coming on this thing and it eventually I can ask them that but I have to earn the right to do that. Yeah, one of the ways I've taken some delight in that or my life has been changed

is you meet people that they're usually very financially successful but you meet people for whom something that is difficult for you is very easy for them. Right? So you meet someone who has set up their life or had the means to set up their life. And you go, oh, this thing that I spend X hours a week thinking about, they don't think about it all, right? And you go, I may be doing it a way that's much harder than it needs to be, or there's actually this problem that I thought

was simply a part of life actually has a solution. Often that solution is spending a certain amount of money, but you realize that people have solved for some of the problems that you have internalized or accepted as just day-to to day stressors in your life. What's an example from your life? I'm trying to think of a good example. You know, obviously most successful people have assistance, right? Most, uh, most people who are in really good shape, as you talked about, have

trainers, you know, when, when you hear how do you get it all done? You know, the answer is I have a lot of help, right? And, and realizing just how specific some of that help is and how often that's helped in things that you weren't even aware you could hire a person to do. Totally. That's a beautiful thing. I remember talking to a multi-millionaire couple

and they just like never traveled. And they had money and they finally realized it and they're like, yeah, but it's just like, we don't know where to go. And I was like, that's like an easy rich people problem to solve. Trust me, there are a lot of travel companies that would love to take your money.

They're like, wait, what? They'll even tell us where to go. They'll even arrange the car service. I go, yeah, yeah, yeah, they'll arrange all that. Trust me. So, you know, there's a phrase, if you have a problem that money could solve, you don't really have a problem.

I find that to be largely, although not fully true. And so, yeah, the amount of things that specialized people pay for is mind-blowing, but it's not very popular to talk about. That's another reason that I was so happy to talk to people on the podcast where they actually share real numbers. Cause I'm like, oh, you spend like $6,000 a month eating out. I go, where do you go? And I'm not judging them.

I actually want to know what kind of car's a good recommendation. Yeah, like where else? Oh, can you get me in there? And like there was a guy, I still remember this one because it blew my mind. He loves tools. And he goes, I got a lot of tools in my garage. Maybe I can sell them.

I'm like, what do you mean? How much could you sell them for? And his wife chimes in. She was so eager to do it. She goes, ask him how much is toolbox costs. I go, how much do you toolbox costs? I thought it was like 10 bucks from Ace Hardware. And he goes, well, it's $25,000 and I have like three of them.

I was like, excuse me. Is there even a toolbox that costs $25,000 and I have like three of them. I was like, excuse me. Is there even a toolbox that costs $25,000? So you learn that there's a higher, more premium example of anything in the world, and that to me is always fascinating. Well, also that there are, there are, and this is I think a wonderful part of where the world is going. There are experts in so many things that you don't,

you wouldn't think there's an expert about. There's an expert downstairs in my office right now. I had hired them to work at my house, and now they're cleaning up my office in the bookstore. They're an organizer. They're a world-classic organizing. And they are fixing so many problems and making things so much more efficient

that it's dramatically improving the quality of my life, right? This wouldn't have been a thing I would have been able to afford several years ago. It's not something I would have emotionally, because of scripts I picked up for my parents, been okay with spending money on, but then you get to a place where you understand, oh, there's a reason stuff like that.

And when you look on Instagram and you see someone's house and it's spotless and perfectly done and you feel insecure or you go over to someone's house and you think it's this way. Oftentimes it's something like that that's the secret. They're not magically better or smarter or have more willpower than you, but they may have solved that problem earlier at the source. And you could do that too, usually more cheaply than you think.

Yeah. They were exposed to it somewhere along the line. Maybe their parents grew up with a personal organizer. Maybe they have friends. I mean, my fantasy has always been to take one of my friends who recently made a little money, be like, let's go to New York, and I'm gonna show you how to spend it.

Yeah, I'm gonna show you how to spend it correctly. And you might not like everything, maybe we'll go to a restaurant and you're like, hey, this is a waste of money, but at least I'm gonna show you why people buy these types of sweaters, why they go to this place, why they would stay at this type of hotel or that apartment. And I wish looking back that someone had done that with me,

I had to learn it mostly myself. But gosh, when you live in a world, I mean, you're exposed to different things. And so not all of it is great. Like, okay, for example, I'm not really into like 10 course meals, five course meals. like I'll do it once in a while for a special occasion, but it's, some people have a Michelin start list, it's their thing.

I'm just as happy eating tacos on the back of my car in LA. But on the other hand, there are things that I spend in truly extravagant amount that people would go nuts. So travel, clothes, those things are important to me, convenience. I like hearing people's stories. It doesn't even, like I don't care about tools, travel, clothes, those things are important to me. Convenience. I like hearing people's stories. It doesn't even, like, I don't care about tools. I don't even have a toolbox.

In fact, my dream is to never walk into a home depot for the rest of my life. That would be a rich life. But the fact that this guy loves tools so much that he picked the coolest toolbox on earth, that's interesting. Yeah, whatever floats your boat, right? Whatever your rich life is, you've got to figure out what that is,

and then you should spend on the things that get you there, and don't spend on the things that other people think you should do that don't get you there. Totally, totally. By the way, I just want to tell you, I've been watching you on video recently, like in the last 48 hours, not because of this, but just totally separately. Yeah. I, it's the video, but just totally separately. Yeah. It's the video you put together on writing your book. Yeah.

It's like months long. First of all, amazing job on that video. It was awesome. And just knowing the kind of work that went into the fourth, the four-site awesome, seeing you get the New York Times list on there. Oh, I was so happy for you. And I just wanted to tell you, I thought that video was amazing.

It was very inspiring. And I felt so I, I can feel when I am ready to create something new. And I'm like a hibernating bear a lot of the time. I'm just like, I'm gonna go on Reddit. I'm gonna make fun of people on Twitter. And it's gonna last for like months sometimes. Yeah, I'm getting like on Reddit, I'm gonna make fun of people on Twitter and it's gonna last for like months sometimes. Yeah, I'm getting like basic stuff done today but like, I'm not in creation mode

but I knew I was in creation mode recently when I started going through my John Grisham interviews. I love John Grisham, okay. I love his writing process, he's just like very structured. Yeah, and so I started reading his stuff and it happened here in my head before I felt it in my body.

And I started reading one article then too. Then I went to my John Grisham bookmarks and I started searching John Grisham writing process and I felt it and I was like, oh my God. It was almost like a warming coming over me. It was like, I am ready to create. And that is what brought me to your video. And I watched it and I was like, yes, yes, this is awesome.

And I can feel that creative process heating up and I knew that it was time. You know, it's funny. I think it was with ego. There's this kind of like long hibernation is a good word, but it's also kind of like an accumulation phase where you're just kind of gathering. And you know you're gonna start at some point,

but you don't know when that is. And you don't know exactly what it is that you're gonna do. You just know that you're pre-that. And so that's where I was. I think on Ego is the enemy. And I remember I went to sleep one night and I had this dream. And the dream was I was. I think I'd ego is the enemy. And I remember I went to sleep one night and I had this dream. And the dream was I was an astronaut.

And it was the whole process of like waking up in the morning, going to NASA, getting the space suit suit on, being driven to the rut. And then the dream ends with the countdown and then blast off. And who knows what dreams actually mean. But to me, that was my subconscious telling me that I had all my stuff ready and it was time. So there is this kind of ineffable feeling where you're like, okay, I now have done all my preparation

and now I can get serious. And maybe that's some of the feeling that people get when they come to you on the podcast. They know their life has been a mess for a long time. They see this accumulation of things that are not working and then they go, this is rock bottom for me. I'm ready to get help. Yeah, I'm ready to get help.

And maybe I'm ready to change. Yeah. And I think what I have learned which Has humbled me but also made me a lot more compassionate is You know, I know money. I know finances. I know money psychology So if somebody came to me, they're like help me. I'm like, okay, like let's go zero to a hundred like right Let's do every single step and the fact of the matter is, like most people do not wanna do that. In fact, as we say internally, A to B, not A to Z.

And that's okay. I have many parts of my life right now. I have a bonsai tree. It's fine. It's not, first of all, it's really cheap. I have a dream of getting like a 10 foot bonsai tree. I happen to know a friend who has one. Then I found out that he has a professional bonsai person who maintains. There you go. And I was like, oh, there you go.

So I said, let me get a cheap one and just prove that I can keep this damn thing alive. I've been doing an okay job. It's still alive. I think that, you know, when it comes to these, these, these bonsai trees or these examples. You want to be able to start out where you are, accept it and then know, okay, it's actually working for me. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Oh, man, I was going to ask you something.

What was I going to say? I have a question for you. You list these podcasts. You listen alone or with your wife? I listen alone and then we always talk about it. I go like, I was just listening today and you'll never believe this. Because I think we, I've been,

when I dropped out of college, I was like dirt poor and she left college into the financial crisis. So we had our sort of whatever phase then we kind of had our middle class phase. And then my books, you know, I'd get advances, but they would never be very big, you know, be like a $75,000 advance or a $100,000 advance.

And then those would take a while to earn out. And then over the last couple of years, it's really become a flywheel where the books have sold extremely well. And so the pandemic plus that sort of, and then having kids, we just, we kind of woke up one day and we are like, our old understanding of who we were and what our financial place in the world is is no longer true. Have you read a structure of scientific revolutions by Thomas Kuhn? Yeah. Lots of them.

We think science is this like brilliant genius has a breakthrough that turns the world upside down. But as you know, it's this slow accumulation of things not adding up, the old theory not holding true anymore that eventually encourages someone to come up with something new and then that's what they call a paradigm shift. And I think, you know, we think that's a piphany, but actually it's this kind of slow slumbering updating of how you see yourself.

And I think we've been going through that and having to adjust assumptions about, well, why is our life at this level of stress when we can afford for it not to be? You know, why do we live in this level of stress when we could afford for it not to be? Why do we live in this level of space when this kind of space would do better? Or just these old questions, like I grew up, we would go on trips, but my parents were very much budget travelers, because my dad was a police officer,

and my mom was a school principal. It was expensive to take four people somewhere. So the idea that we would then get in the hotel and order room service was insane. Like, I was under the impression that ordering room service was like thousands of dollars, right? You know, like you could never do that. Totally.

And so now though, like if I'm traveling to give a talk, and I'm only in this city for like 13 hours, I'm like, or I'm bringing my kids with me, which I did recently. I'm like, I'm not gonna put jackets on these people to go downstairs, make a reservation, travel to it, but I can just pay 15% more, and the food will be delivered to my room.

So like having to adjust to a world where you have to, you have to check whether all your old assumptions are true. I think that's what we've been going through. That's awesome. I love hearing that. I'm so thrilled to hear that. It's such a journey. It's a beautiful journey because you get to do it together and you get to see and almost

taste test. Oh, do we like this? Oh, we tried that. We don't need to do that again. And we really love that. Let's make that a regular once every quarter this? Oh, we tried that. We don't need to do that again. And oh, we really love that. Let's make that a regular once every quarter. We're going to do that. And it's, it's really visualizing and designing your rich life together, my entire philosophy. You have the money to be able to think about it in a more expansive way than many, which

is just like, Hey, we need to get by this month. That's very common, but at a certain point, with luck, with hard work, with some savings, et cetera, you're able to think bigger, not everyone does. Yeah, there are a lot of people who have money, not the vision, so it's cool to hear you have both. Well, what I like about your, what are the questions you ask is, again, to go to questions. And I think sometimes the question is more important than the answer because the question

is almost rhetorical where the implication is so clear. But sometimes you go, if you guys continue on this track, where will you end up? And the answer is usually we will be divorced. We will not be together anymore. We will murder each other. They don't say that though. A couple's don't use the D word. It's very interesting.

And I get it now being married. You just don't even want to bring that energy into a relationship. But when I ask that question, I'm trying to create stakes for them. And that's critical with money. Because money, honestly, if we're really candid, you don't need to really change anything tomorrow. You're still going to have a roof.

You're still going to have HBO. And if you don't change anything for a year tomorrow. You're still gonna have a roof, you're still gonna have HBO. And if you don't change anything for a year, a big deal, 10 years even, okay fine. So if they don't see the stakes, there's no reason to get them to change. And this is a philosophy that I wish more financial people would get.

They think of themselves as coming into a conversation where they're the expert and they're going to tell people, you got to cut back your spending on steak. It's just too much. Get the cheaper version. And I'm like, listen, if that's your paradigm, you're screwed because nobody's going to listen to some random person telling them to cut back on the thing they love. So I got to get them to visualize viscerally, we are going to fight every Saturday until our kids go to college and then she's going to divorce me or he's going to leave. I need them to feel that and I want and I see it because I can see their faces. And if they don't feel that, then we have a we have a bigger problem but they're

just not going gonna change. What do you have to realize that all these discussions, or none of these discussions happened in a vacuum. I remember I read a thing from Tyler Cowan once and he was saying, okay, you and your wife are shopping for a couch and you want this couch and she wants that couch. And you insist on getting what you want so you're right. But then your wife is unhappy.

How much did that cost? You saved $100, but it cost you thousands of dollars or millions of dollars or it cost you something priceless in that you're no longer with the person who you believe is part of a happy life. And so I think so often when I'm listening to your podcast, and this is something my wife has pointed out to me, or we ask each other this question, what's more important, this or the relationship?

And oftentimes the people on your show are so caught up with a particular financial script or peculiarity or habit that they are choosing it over the likelihood that they will continue to be able to have this person in their life. Yeah, they're winning the battle, maybe, losing the war, and not even realizing that the entire paradigm should not be battle in war, it should be joy.

Yeah, so if we're fighting an 80% of the stores in Hewan or Shewan, or they want, what about, like, what's your rich life? Let's start from a place of joy. And so I, I find a lot of joy in hearing them tell me about their rich life. At first because it's always the same. I go, what's your rich life to go? I want to do what I want, what I want.

I go, God, not again, but I push them. And it's really interesting hearing what people say. And sometimes I will call them on it. I remember one person. He was a nice guy. He goes, my rich life is coffee. I go, oh, what's that? He goes, I love coffee.

I want to get like an extra bag of coffee every week. And I go, I go, hey man, that's really boring. And he was like, what? I go, that's boring. Coffee's fine. I like coffee too, but you're telling me you want to get one extra bag for the rest of your life. That's your rich life.

What? No, that's too boring. I go, tell me you want to go to Italy and try the coffee in Rome. Tell me you want to go with your wife on a coffee tasting tour across the minute. Tell me something. But it can't be I'm buying a bag of Dunkin' Donuts. And when I tell people that, at first they're like, mother fuck this guy telling me my dreams are boring.

But then they realize when they zoom up, they go, he's inviting me to go deeper on the thing I love. Why don't I take advantage of that, even in this dream. And when they do it, they often will discover that the dream they created is quite achievable. Well, let me ask you a question, because you talked about, they don't want to talk about divorce, because they don't want that energy. I think people sometimes believe in manifestation, or not wanting to attempt fate. But the stoic idea is that you actively think about this bad

thing that could happen, so you can prepare for it or avoid it. And so one of the things I actually think about, like when I'm making like a major financial decision, like when we open this bookstore, or we're thinking about doing this, or we wanna do this crazy adventure, we're gonna travel together for a month in a sale vote, or something. I sometimes, I'll back out from this decision,

and I'll go, my wife and I have gotten a divorce. Was that situation the reason why? Was that the straw that broke the camel's back? Right? And I think about that because I think oftentimes people will jump on some opportunity, like, hey, my work offered me to go do a three month trip to Rome, work on this thing. It paid more money. It helps me event blah, blah, blah.

And then they don't think about the fact that other people bear the consequences of that decision. And then they're like surprised when they come home and the person is not there. So what do you think about thinking about like these big decisions and going, what is, like how did this blow up my life? Basically is what I think about.

And then if it's not that if it has the chance who I don't do it, but I do think if I am gonna do it, how do I make sure that I actually have buy-in that I've preemptively addressed some of these potential worst case scenarios and then did it from a place of strength, not hope or wishes? Well, I think you might be the only one who thinks, let me fast forward to my divorce

and then reverse engineer and see if this decision led to it. You might be the only one I've talked to who does that, but I love it. I do love it. I love a good morbid dream. Like, I'm always trying to make jokes about my death to my wife. She really does not like them. But I did tell her, listen, if and when I die, if I find out that you hired a financial advisor paying them 1.5% AUM,

I will come down unpleasantly. It will not be good for anybody. And then, you know, again, she didn't love that joke. But you're actually having a financial discussion that people don't have because death is more bit accurate. That's correct. And they don't know what to do when they lose someone and expect it. Well, that's why I insist that couples talk about money and manage it jointly.

So it would be very easy for me in my relationship to be the money guy, right? I know it, I can do it. But I told Cas from day one, like, we've got to do this together. I'm gonna be dead one day. So it's not morbid, it's a fact. I am gonna die.

And I need your buy-in, I need your help. And also it's just more fun. Now, to your point, I totally agree that people should talk about things that can go wrong upfront. If you're getting married, talk about what can happen in a divorce. Sure.

And that's why I openly talk about signing a prenup. That is not common for my culture. And I wanted people to know what is involved. It's not a caricature of rich, like people think. Number two, you're going to die. Yes, you, listening to this, you will die. So what's going to happen to the money? What's going to happen to the house? And the good news is a lot of this has been solved by a lot of old white rich people ahead of you. Yeah. They're always the ones to ask about wealth. What do you do if this case? They're like, yeah, my ancestors, 35 generations ahead,

solve this. Fine. For example, don't give a house to three kids. That's going to cause a ton of problems. Because they'll have to fight about it. They'll fight about it and you, the parents, will ruin their relationship because you didn't pick up one good book about how to pass on your money. Or, this is a common one, I used to think this. If you have money in a state, maybe one of your kids is a doctor.

They're doing really well. And the other one did not do so well. So as a parent, you're like, let me give some extra to the one who's not doing well. Recipe for resentment. Because the other person's like, I went to medical school, I studied hard, and I get penalized for that. I hate you, mom, even though you're dead. I hate you. You don't want that. So there are lots of solutions. These are solved. And then you had one more, what was the last thing you said about morbid? Well, what I was saying about the divorce thing, the reason I'm doing it is that my rich life,

one of the things that's very important to me, is the health of my marriage and that I'm able to continue to be in my children's life. Okay. And so I don't wanna make decisions that are maybe good for my career or good short term financially that would cost me the thing that's actually most important to the life that I wanna live.

Well, you're presenting a great lesson for all of us, which is we overvalue that which is quantifiable. This is why people will stay in extra two hours at work because it's quantifiable and it shows up on their paycheck or at their boss telling them good job, but we would rarely prioritize going for a walk with our son. Yeah.

It just doesn't show up on any spreadsheet. And we believe, to some extent, I can understand why, that we will have an infinite number of walks with our sun. But as any parent knows, that's not the case. So it is important, I think, for couples, when it comes to money or otherwise, to talk about what are our core values? What are the things that we want to do?

And here's the way I recommend doing it. Once a year, my wife and I go on a Rich Life Review, annual Rich Life Review. Now for us, we love to travel, so we take a long trip, and as part of that, we do a really leisurely thing. We just walk, and we'll talk about what was great last year, what was not, where do we want to go next year, et cetera, et cetera. I like it because it's inspiring. It's outside of the day to day. And it gets us to think differently. Like one of the reasons that we recently went and stayed in New York for two months was our last annual Rich Life Review. We're like, we're walking and we're like, you know what,

we missed New York. Let's go back. And so we did. That is something on an annual basis, people intuitively get that. Now you, you're thinking about death and divorce. You know, great. I love it. But I think we'll get people started by thinking about what they want to do on the next year. Yeah. I think it's just if you don't know, uh, Santa Claus is great.

Hylene says, if you don't know what port your sailing towards, no wind is favorable. Right. And I think this is your exercise of thinking about like, what is, what do I want my life to look like? is if you don't know what port you're sailing towards, no wind is favorable, right? And I think this is your exercise of thinking about, what do I want my life to look like, right? What do I, day to day now and also in the future? And if you haven't done the work to think about what you want your life to look like, then it's impossible for you to make the right decision now

when you're offered this job or this job living in this city or that city go into this college or that one, whether you should save this much money or that much money, you can't properly make any of these decisions because you don't know where they're taking you. And they may well be intelligent, rational, reasonable decisions now, but they're just off enough that over 10 years or 15 years or 20 years, you will end up very far from where you wanna end up. Most of us do. Most of us don't even know where we wanna go.

And I resent the idea that people should make a quote financial plan for the next 40 years. Because I'm like, do you understand that 90% of the people I talk to who are in debt, they don't even know how much they owe. And you're asking them to project out some complicated math for 40, forget that. I go, just tell me what you want to do in the next year. And they don't even know how to think like that. I don't blame them. I go like, for example, I spoke to a couple earlier this week. The guy was pretty lack of daisicle. He wasn't really interested or engaged with

the money stuff. But they both loved travel. And at one point, I caught whiff of something. So I started hunting. I'm like, I sniff something. I go in a little deeper. And they mentioned that for their 10 year anniversary, they are going to go on a child-free trip to Japan. And I said, oh, child-free, is that interesting to you? And the guys face lit up. I never saw a parents face light up so much talking about not being with his children. I said,

I got it. And I said, you like to travel child free? He goes, I would love it for me. I go, what was the last time he goes, never I go, so when are you going to do it? He goes years from now. I go, what if you could do it once a quarter? And just the guy, he just looked in complete disbelief. That's a vision which I love because it's about the two of them connecting and I go, okay, let's talk about it. How could we make that happen? And you could see the energy change, visibly change. He got engaged, he physically leaned forward and instead of his partner dragging him to care, he started leading this part of it. And listen guys, it could be as simple as going camping for one night every quarter.

It could be free or it could be, you know, whatever, expensive, but it's having that vision, then the numbers follow. Yeah, instead, because if you don't know what you want and if you haven't thought about what you don't want, you end up just doing what other people say you should want, or what other people do. And you know, Sena, Sena, as this great line, he says, he uses this word euphemia, which he basically translates as tranquility. And he says euphemia is a sense that you are on the right path, right? And that you're not distracted, he says, by the path that crisscross yours, he says particularly from those who are hopelessly lost.

Oh my gosh. And that's what I think you wanna cultivate. I, it resonates so deeply with me because I can think of specific scenarios where I feel that, I'll give you an example. When I go to the airport, I always like to leave scenarios where I feel that. I'll give you an example. When I go to the airport, I always like to leave a healthy margin of error.

I actually like that in all parts of life, a healthy margin of error. So I'm there, I got plenty of time, and I see people frenetically running around, and it actually makes me calmer. I go, I know my path, I know my time, even if the gate changes, I have no issue whatsoever. And then similarly with money, you know, in the last few years there are a lot of crypto

weirdos who came out of the woodwork calling me a lot-eyed old man, you know, I'm hopelessly antiquated and I just laughed. I said, first of all, can you guys learn how to spell? If you're going to insult me, at least get your spelling correct. Second, I'll just wait because I know how markets work and of course, you know, 30% of them disappeared and I really enjoy going back and saying, Hey, guys, what do you think? You know, portfolio is down 70%. The point is there will be endless number of things that come across you, whether you

are an author, whether you're talking about finances, whether you're in a relationship, there will be endless things that come across your path. Right now, I get more questions about eyeballs than I've ever gotten. There's no reason for the average person to be talking about eyeballs when they should be talking about, like, should I have a diversified portfolio? They don't even have that. But it's just a symptom of whatever's in the news is what is going to force you to take action. And what I want you to do is be calm.

As the winds cross you, you have a vision, you're calmly taking one step after another. Nothing is phasing you because you and maybe your partner, hand in hand are going forward towards where you wanna go. Yeah, and even, let's say that doing that, and I'm not saying that it would, but let's say doing that means that your net worth at the end of your life is 10% less or whatever.

Would that be worth it? Exactly. Like to not be miserable day to day or to not have it not come at the expense of your marriage or your health or your sanity or whatever. That's such a beautiful thing to you. I will say to do it on your own is one thing. It's actually quite rare, I think, to meet somebody who has a strong point of view

on their life and they are maybe uninterested in certain social expectations. Like they're just like, oh yeah, I live in a super cheap place. It's just not important to me, right? Or whatever. But I find it incredibly inspiring when I meet a couple who does it.

A couple, it's not just one person, it means two of them had endless conversations. And like for example, when I travel, sometimes I'll meet parents and they're there with their two, three kids. I go, how long have you guys been traveling? They're like, oh yeah, we travel six months a year. I go, you travel six months a year with kids?

How do you do it? And they smile and they have a huge story and they have thought about it. I find that very inspiring because a couple has to really align to know it is them as a unit focused on what they want, not what everybody else wants. Well, and that's probably a good place as we wrap up to think about it.

It's like when I listen to some of the episodes where the couple is extremely wealthy and extremely successful. And yet, they're somehow not on the same page. You go, how is that winning? How is that success? Right? It's almost, it's realizing that actually, okay, to be a multimillionaire in your profession, that may be easier and simpler to do than to be in a productive, constructive, you know,

communicative relationship. And one of the things I think I've taken the most from your show and from your stuff is sometimes when you're talking to those couples, there's definitely people who are struggling and people shouldn't think that your show is just people who are crushing it. But you'll go, you guys won. You won. You should be happy. Your life should be good.

It should not be this way. And it's like, you won. How are you spending your time trying to make more money, not spending your time trying to be more on the same page about what your life is going to look like? We play the games that we know. And when we're really good at those games, we want to play them more.

But sometimes the best thing to do is to end the game and turn the page. You're on a new chapter. And it's hard to hear that. So I do a lot of theatrical things, which is not really my typical, I'm not a theatrical guy, but sometimes I'll go round of applause everybody, which is not really my typical, I'm not a theatrical guy, but sometimes I'll go round of applause everybody and I'll say everybody pet yourself on the back, give each other high five. And I do this because I don't mind if things feel a little cheesy with money. If anything, money feels so negative and rigid that I want to loosen us up.

And that's why I, you know, I'll joke around a lot and I just get to know them. We have to be able to feel good about money, always. So on a monthly Rich Life Review, which I encourage everyone to do one hour per month, you talk to your partner and the first question you should, the first thing you should say is each of you complement the other person for something they do well with money.

You know, hey, babe, I just want to say, I think you compliment the other person for something they do well with money. You know, hey, babe, I just want to say I think you are amazing at planning our travel. Every time we have to go somewhere, you pick the best seats, you get us there on time, and you are the best at it. I love you. And it just changes the energy talking about money in a positive way. And ultimately, that is the real goal of what we're doing. It's to use money to design and live our rich life.

The point of a rich life is not to save money. It's certainly not to cut back on lattes or the price of asparagus, and it's not to win with your partner because you're intellectually right. It's to use your money to design and live a rich life. And so, you got to feel good about that. If you're not feeling good, this is a great opportunity to change that dynamic. Yeah, it's like winning, but at what cost, right?

That's one of the saddest parts on your show is when the person is insisting on winning even though it's obviously hurting the other person's feelings. Yeah, sometimes I wish that I could, I will I've done follow-ups later. It's really interesting that when I ask for follow-ups like several months down the line, the people who write back to me are always the people who are doing super well. Like they've done all the work and they've changed their lives. It's amazing. And then

the people who I never hear from are the ones who I can only assume did not make a change in maybe it got worse. And that's tragic, but I have to say that's also reality. Like real life, which is what this podcast is, it's not always going to end with a bow. I hope that they can change, but it is as real as it gets. Some couples will do well and some will not, and that's just the way it goes. Yeah, well, I've gained so much from the stuff,

and I love it. I would also, sometimes you point out the courage of the guests, I would never go on your show. Me either. So I also just admire and appreciate the service that some people are doing by airing their very dirty laundry in front of you Nobody talks about it and the fact that couples come on and they share real numbers and they talk about this stuff and they cry and they laugh and they Tell us about their family history is incredibly courageous and we all benefit from it thanks to them

Yeah, and I think people can mimic that in their lives, which is share stuff, right? Don't just show the sort of Instagram-y version of your reality, only talk about how things are going well, but try to show like how stuff works and try to actually talk to people about lessons that you've learned in your life that is doing a real service for people I feel like.

Totally, totally. Well listen, I appreciate you and your wife listening to this. It actually means a lot, like it really does. And to get your texts about this recent episode and your questions and your observations, there is no greater gift for someone who creates something, an author, podcast, or writer, than to have their friends engage. So it means a lot. Well, as two kids from Sacramento,

I feel like we did all right. That's right. That's right. Amazing, man. Well, I appreciate it and I'll keep listening. Awesome. Thank you, always a pleasure. I appreciate it. Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies

of all my books in the Daily Stoke Store. You can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend. The app goes away. You go as the enemy, still in this is the key, the leather bound edition of the Daily Stoke. We have them all in the Daily Stoke Store, which you can check out at store.dailystoke.com. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad-free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts.