The Daily Stoic - Randall Stutman on Becoming a Life-Long Student of Leadership | Don't Let This Pass You By

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

This is an excerpt from week 1 of the Daily Stoic Leadership Challenge, a 9-week course that was built to mirror the kind of education that produced historically great leaders like Marcus Aurelius. It is now a recorded course, which means all participants will join the course and move through it at their own pace. Sign up at https://dailystoic.com/leadershipchallengeRyan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to Dr. Randall Stutman about the difference between feedback and advice, the important distinction in being subtle and being manipulative, how great leaders see themselves as stewards, not owners, and more.Dr. Stutman is a leadership scientist dedicated to exploring the uncommon behaviors and routines common among extraordinary leaders. Randall has served as a Principal Advisor to more than 2,000 Senior Executives, including 400 CEOs. His work as an advisor and speaker has taken him to the White House, West Point, the Olympics, and the Harvard Business School. He has worked for close to three decades with Fortune 500 companies, hedge funds, law firms, private equity funds, investment banks, and insurance companies, which include Citi, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, J.P. Morgan.The new Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. You can add the Cover to any mattress, and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. Go to eightsleep.com/dailystoic to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout.KiwiCo believes in the power of kids and that small lessons today can mean big, world-changing ideas tomorrow. KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 30% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com.Uprising Food have cracked the code on healthy bread. Only 2 net carbs per serving, 6 grams of protein and 9 grams of fiber. They cover paleo, to clean keto, to simple low carb, to high fiber, to dairy free to grain free lifestyle. Uprising Food is offering our listeners ten dollars off the starter bundle. that includes two superfood cubes and four pack of freedom chips to try! go to uprisingfood.com/stoic and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. Ladder makes the process of getting life insurance quick and easy. To apply, you only need a phone or laptop and a few minutes of time. Ladder’s algorithms work quickly and you’ll find out almost immediately if you’re approved. Go to ladderlife.com /stoic to see if you’re instantly approved today.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://DailyStoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic podcasts early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast where each weekday we bring you a Meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating, and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors. Hi I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars.

And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't let this pass you by. You are busy. You have somewhere you have to go. You have a million things in your head. So you don't look. So you don't stop and think how can you? Who has the time? Who has the energy? It's understandable. But it's expensive because what we're missing is the moment. What we're missing is what's around us.

We're missing all those things that Marcus are really as busier than you, more on his mind than you, managed to not only see, but managed to write about beautifully in his journal, the bread splitting open in the oven, the olives falling right from the tree, the stocks of grain bending low, the furrows of the brow of the lion, the flecks of foam, on the boar's mouth. This is life. We shouldn't miss it. As the lyrics go, I see the grass beneath me. I smell the winter sky.

And I think to myself, don't pass me by. You don't know what tomorrow holds. You don't know how many more of these moments you'll get. So grab them while they're here. Look while you can, drink them in while you can, don't let the stillness pass you by, you deserve it. If you want to know a really embarrassing story about me, I was giving a talk in Bermuda a few years ago. I've been doing a bunch of different talks. I had to spend the night at the Toronto airport at a hotel and then take off that morning to Bermuda. And I remember landing in Bermuda

and I called my wife and I was like, did you know Bermuda is like off the coast of the Carolinas and she was like, what? Yeah, of course, everyone knows that. And I was like, I thought I was in the Bahamas. And she was like, you're the biggest idiot in the entire world. Do you know why you think it is near the Bahamas? And I was like, why? And she was like, because it's next to the Bahamas in the Beach Boys song.

And that's me. And also an insight into what the life of a speaker is, you just sort of go wherever they tell you, you don't look that much into the details because you're just going from one thing to the other. I remember years previous, my wife actually came with me on this one so she's partly to blame also, but we landed in London and then they picked us up and I was like, where are we going? They're like, oh, the talk is in Wales. It's like, is that like far from here? And they're like, yeah, it's five hours from here. So you're just sort of like it's a blur of places and airports and trips and trains and buses

and drivers and all of that. Anyways, why was I in Bermuda? I was in Bermuda because I was giving a talk to a hedge fund at their offsite that had been put together by this guy because I was giving a talk to a hedge fund at their offsite that had been put together by this guy that I'd heard a lot about, that we had some mutual friends, we had some mutual friends, and I really wanted to meet him. His name was Randall Stumpen, and he's basically like a guy behind the guy, or the mentors

lots of women as well, but he's like the leadership coach expert advisor to pretty much any bank firm hedge fund legal office, you name it on Wall Street. And not just Wall Street, but like the financial industry. He's like the guy in the way that Bill Campbell was the guy in Silicon Valley, Google, Apple, Adreason, Horowitz, etc. That's what Randall Stuttman is on the East Coast. I'm just one I'm always fascinated when someone's like the best at what they do.

I'm also really fascinated when someone's like a secret weapon to other people. I was really honored that he brought me in to talk to one hedge fund and another hedge fund and a couple different funds. And we've gotten to know each other. I went out and saw him in Philadelphia a few years ago. I got to see him lead coaching session

with his coaches, which was an incredible experience. Anyway, he's become a friend. He appears briefly in my book Stillness is the key. He was telling me about this study he looked at all these great leaders and CEOs and how they found it. Stillness and quiet in their hobbies. He's become an advisor and a mentor to me as he is to countless people. I'm just a big fan of this guy. He's his work as an advisor and speaker has taken him to the White House to West Point, the Olympics as well as Harvard Business School. He's worked for close to three decades, Fortune 500 companies, hedge funds law firms, private equity

firms, investment banks, insurance companies. As I said, which include city, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, and many, many others. And he's just fascinated with what makes great leaders, great leaders. And I think his definition of leadership is a really great one. Even that is education. He says leaders make people better. That's what we're in the business of doing, making people better. And that's what he does. He's made me better knowing him. And that's why when we did the Daily Stoke Leadership

Challenge, Randall was one of the people that I wanted to interview. Now, we did that as part of the challenge. It was originally just going to be limited to the people who did the challenge. But this interview was so good. And Randall's insights are so great that I felt like I had to share them with people. And that's what we're going to do here. If you want to take the challenge, we'd love to have you. You can sign up at dailystoke.com slash leadership challenge. And if you're a daily stoke, I remember, of course, you get them for free. In any case, this is my interview with Randall Stuttman.

You can follow him at admiredleadership.com. He also has a great interview on Shane Parrish's podcast, The Knowledge Project, which as part of the leadership challenge, I was interviewing Shaka Smart, formerly the coach at UT, now the coach at Marquette from Ns Basketball. I mentioned Randall Stuttman and he goes, I listened to him on the knowledge project. That was an incredible interview. He's a big fan of Randall. Like I said, he's the guy behind the guy. He makes leaders better.

That's what we're gonna do in this interview. I'm really proud of this one. I can't wait for you to listen. Check out Randall at myredleadership.com. Enjoy. I thought what we'd start with is this idea of your definition of leadership as being a leader is someone who makes people better. Walk me through where that, I imagine, it's a very simple thing, but I imagine it took quite a lot of study

and experience to come to it. So walk me through your journey to that insight. So you, as you well know, so many definitions of leadership and so many representations of it, but the more time you spend with leaders and you kind of look at the essence of instead of looking at the kinds of functions that they serve or you know the the

ways that they do things which were certainly interested in but at the at the base of it is I've never been around a leader that that in their head at least if not in their expressions doesn't have an idea that they want to make people and situations better. And so if you think of leadership as an expression, not a possession, which is really where we started from. And then you move to the idea of, so where does leadership reside? Well, resides in actions and behaviors and decisions and messages and choices. Then why are you engaging those things? And when you ask that question, you get, you're doing them, you're engaging them to make other people better or situations

better. And then if you remove the idea of title, authority, power, status away from leadership, which is really the thing that makes it dark to other people and makes it misunderstood. And you say, OK, so who can lead? Well, anytime I'm making people better or making situations better, I'm making a choice to do so, then I'm choosing to lead. And so a very long time ago, I've decided that I just want to subscribe to the definition of the empowering view of leadership as expression in a way that anybody or everybody can do it

and does it on an ongoing basis. So that's for Ken from. Yeah, no, I like that because it makes it much more accessible as well. I remember when I was working on this book with Chris Bosh, who won two championships with Miami, he was talking to me about a conversation he had with one of his coaches at his high school or college. They were saying, look, like the leader is not necessarily the loudest person

in the locker room. It's not necessarily the team captain. It's not necessarily the best player on the team. And it's not, it's not the person given exciting speeches at halftime either. It's any, you know, there are lots of ways to lead. And so I like that because I think if your definition of is that a leader makes people better, then anyone and everyone inside an organization, inside an industry, inside a community can play a leadership role,

whether you're the CEO or the president or the owner. Isn't that obvious once you say that loud? I mean, well, people are leading all the time. They just that obvious when she said that loud? Sure. The people are leading all the time. They just don't think of his leadership. I mean, somebody needs to be comforted and you comfort them. Is it really not an active leadership?

Well, of course it is. Now, it doesn't mean it's skillful. It doesn't mean it works. It doesn't mean it's effective. But the attempt is to try to make a situation or a person better. And as a result, you're leading. Which means we can make that choice more often

if we so choose. Well, and that there are different that an organization is filled with leaders at different levels and that the different leaders have different jobs, but their job is to make either the few people around them or the many hundreds or thousands of people beneath them better. And also that I guess leadership can go both directions. You can make the people above you better and the people beneath you better. Right, just by your choices, right? Just by the actions and choices you make.

And what else is cool about that is that when you have that frame in your head, not only does that mean that you can lead more actively all the time, but it also means now that you can understand what it means to be skillful, because the idea is, right, if you're gonna create leadership excellence, you actually have to get good at making people in situations better by your choices, which means your choices, your behaviors,

they actually matter. Well, I think that connects with the few times that I've seen you at work at some of the leadership off sites that you've had me come speak at. It was interesting, obviously you work a lot with finance and with hedge funds and investors. As I met the people that run or own the funds that you hire you as a coach, I don't know, I guess as an outsider, I assume like the head of some large hedge fund is making a lot of investment decisions, right? Is the sort of the captain of the ship, but actually seeing them at work with you, it's

like, oh, they're actually not really doing much of that day to day. Primarily their job is helping the people in the organization do all those things. That primarily the leader is sort of a shepherd and a cultivator of talent and culture and that's how they make people better. And then those people actually run the business itself. Hey, man, I agree, right? I mean, that's exactly what happens.

And it's true of any organization, of any size and any industry. The best leaders are facilitative in terms of the team. And they're trying to forge a team of leaders, not just themselves being in a position of power and authority. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't some weak leaders out there that have some bad things in their head that try to do the opposite.

And a lot of leaders, by the way, very good ones, have a high need for control. But at the same point, when you finally get to evolve to a point where you actually understand what leadership is, you're absolutely more about other people than you are about yourself, and you're about the development of everything. And you take a back seat, I think it was Bob Dylan saying, when you're on the bottom, you know, and you're on the top, you're really on the bottom. That's exactly how the best leaders say it. They're on the top, but they're really on the bottom. They're a resource to everybody.

Now, and being a resource doesn't mean you're a servant. Like, I don't rail against servant leadership. I'm not somebody that really band is about, or concerns myself with many definitions, but I do believe that as a great leader, you do need to be a resource, but that doesn't mean that you're only there to serve other people.

It means that you're there to collectively facilitate people toward the goals of the organization and toward their own goals. And sometimes that'll look like servant leadership and sometimes along. Yeah, there's a great book. It's a new translation of Plutarch called How to Be a Leader. And he has a good line.

He says, a leader must be able and willing to do anything, but can't do everything. And so I think a servant leader might find themselves in a position where they're just doing everything for everyone and thus not actually serving anyone or the business. So you have to be willing to help anyone with any problem, but you can't be doing everything because then you're not helping everyone. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you know, selflessness is a wonderful virtue, but it probably

doesn't play out exactly that way in leadership situations. And you could be selfless to a point of being highly ineffective. So. Well, so this idea of being, you know, a leader has come in many forms. I'm fascinated with your career because I've met so many people who swear by you, who have worked with you to consider you like their secret weapon. But most of the vast majority of people haven't heard of you.

How have you gravitated towards and relished in the role of being the guy behind the guy or the guy behind the woman? And I know you have many coaches who work for you so you also have many women who work for you. So they're the guy behind the guy or the guy behind the woman. And I know you have many coaches who work for you. So you also have many women who work for you. So they're the, the woman behind the guy or the woman behind the woman. Talk to me about this sort of less prominent form of leadership. Again, we tend to think of leaders as being leading the charge,

but not every leader is well known. Often leaders can be people you've never heard of. The very best leaders I've ever been around are people you would never even imagine. You've never heard of, you'll never will hear of them. And now they're very well known in their organizations, by the way, and sometimes in their industries. But the either sit and seats that don't require a profile, or they actually assume profile, which is very common of people that of excellence and just about everything. I mean, again, if you're trying to put your face in a coin, that's a very different

goal than it is to just simply try to be a great leader. I've always believed that the whole point of us is to be in the background, not in the foreground, that our clients want that, very, very few people want to say, like you don't promote like who your doctor is and what your visit was about. You don't normally talk about who your lawyers are. And so why would you talk about who your advisors are? And then I've also had a belief that, you know, if it truly leadership this about other people, which is what I deeply believe, it's about how you engage other people. It's not about you. Even your office can't be about you. Even your personal spaces are not about you.

They're not an ideal form. Then how would we not be charlatans, if in fact we made it about us, as a way of coaching other people to greatness or to excellence? And so I've always had the rule in our firm that nobody gets quoted, nobody writes things, nobody does speeches, nobody does any of those things that our great work will be referred from place

to place. When we build a beautiful business over a long period of time, totally by referral, we don't market ourselves, we don't do anything other than build relationships and maintain contact with people. We don't advertise, there's none of those things. And yet, here we are, you know, in a very esteemed position. And the people that should know us know us. But the fact that, you know, we have lots of journalists and people like that that don't know us, I actually find

that to be a badge of honor. And so, you know, it's just about living consistently with what you're trying to teach. Like, I think it was Truman who said, you'd be amazed at what you could accomplish if you don't care about credit. And I think, you know, the fact that it's called the Marshall Plan and not the Truman Plan is sort of proof of concept there. But I imagine that because you are okay,

not getting credit and you don't advertise, it also allows people to hire you and bring you in because they're less threatened by it. And because in a finally-to-nittness-story where people are always looking for the slightest sign of where things are going, you wouldn't want to be seen as, you know, oh, they're hiring Randall because things are really bad over at the funds, right? You don't want to be high profile, it would actually impede your ability

to effectively lead and make people better. Yeah, for sure, absolutely. And it's just a view. It doesn't make it the right view. Would it say a view that I hold very strongly, which is, it needs to be about the work itself and about other people and about our ability to facilitate and it isn't about us.

I mean, we want to do great work, but none of that great requires our profile and it certainly doesn't require our vanity. And so I insist on that and some people will fight me on it for a period of time and then they come to round to the wisdom of it over time. I'm a big believer in what I call predator theory, right? A fun, you know, that may make believe theory, which is all the big predators on the planet, lions, tigers, sharks, alligators, none of them announced themselves.

All of them really well because they're stealthy. I think you're supposed to be stealthy when you're in the background. Right? No, that's beautifully said. So this idea of hiring a coach, and again, I think it sports it's obvious, maybe a little bit in business. It's become more, more well-known. But I do feel like, and I know I have this, there's this, people kind of have this resistance towards bringing in a coach. But if the idea of becoming a student of leadership

is what you're committing to, it seems like it would make sense that you would bring in an expert, that you would bring in an outside person who could see you from a little bit of distance. I mean, I guess it's like the average CEO, especially if they're the founder of the CEO, this their first time at doing this,

or maybe they've worked at one or two other companies by bringing in someone like you are bringing in a coach, what you're really benefiting from is a swat of experience from other businesses. Like you've worked with hundreds or thousands of CEOs and firms, so if I were to bring you in, what I'm really getting is the trial and error, the failures and mistakes of all those other businesses, which is also a reason to read, but I think

directly working with someone who's an expert in a topic, what walked me through why people should do that. And also, I've got to imagine still, even at the level you're at, you experience a lot of people whose ego won't allow them to even think of doing something like that. Well, the fortunate thing is I don't get chance to talk to those people because I never get to them, right? But we have plenty of people to get to, so that's not the issue. So listen, it's one of the reasons that I consider myself as much a coach as an advisor because I'm a sounding board. Yeah. And so, you know, so I've been lots of places, seen lots of things. I mean, mostly even if at a CEO level, and I coached lots of different CEOs,

groomed CEOs, away from financial services in particular. And, and, you know, even if they've been a CEO three times, they have an end of three. They've got three experiences. Well, I've, you know, I've had an end of five, six hundred. And so don't you want to hear like, you know, I've seen that situation 25 times. I know some things that you shouldn't do, some things you might think about doing. I have at least a vested interest in knowing

some best practices. And so, you know, and by the way, I'm not gonna, you know, it's just a recommendation. It's just great, but why wouldn't you want to engage that? You know, in the video analogy, why don't you want to go gonna, you know, it's just a recommendation, it's just great, but why wouldn't you wanna engage that? In the video analogy, why don't you wanna go to door 17? Why don't you wanna be killed and spend all and waste all that time through all those trials

and tribulations when I can already take you to door 17? Take you right there, right? And we can start the game from there. So smart people go, first of all, every single thing that people are excellent at has sets of routines. Leadership has the same thing. It has a set of routines and behaviors associated with it of true excellence, most of which

aren't known. Why wouldn't you want to talk to someone if in fact you felt they had some insight into that? And most people are not trained. They're not trained to work with boards. They're not trained to run teams of teams. They're not trained to push a strategic message down in an organization. I mean, where do you go for that? And so they want a sounding board. They want advice and best practice. And then they also want some feedback. And they want to hold, they want somebody who's honest that

doesn't work for them in a direct way that holds up a mirror and says, this is what you're doing, this is who you are, this is what's happening right now. And by the way, the more senior you get in every organization, the more filtered all the truth is that comes to you. And so you need somebody out there telling you the truth who's willing to say, guess what, you know, you can fire me tomorrow

and I'm willing to walk away because I have lots of clients. But I'm gonna tell you what you need to hear and whether you like it or not. I don't wanna be unpalatable. I don't wanna be offensive, but I'm going to tell you what you need to hear, whether you like it or not. I don't want to be unpalatable. I don't want to be offensive, but I'm going to do it, and that's my role. That's the role. And so when you have somebody that's a confidential resource that really knows how to do this stuff, there's nothing like it. There's nothing, you know, there's nothing that equals it. Any more than, you know, no surgeon can operate on themselves. No leader can really assess themselves and

understand everything that's going on without some help. That were the help, were the resource. That's all. Ah, the Bahamas. What if you could live in a penthouse above the crystal clear ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for? FDX Founder's Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded. ocean working during the day and partying at night with your best friends and have it be 100% paid for. FTX Founder's Sam Bankman Freed lived that dream life, but it was all funded with other people's money, but he allegedly stole. Many thought Sam Bankman Freed was changing the game as he graced the pages of Forbes and Vanity Fair. Some involved in crypto saw him as a breath of fresh air

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Download the Amazon Music app today. So, I have some scenarios I want to run through with you, but something you just touched on that I've heard you talk about, it's some of those off sites. Obviously, feedback is essential, and we don't get enough unvarnished feedback, but it seems like there's this trend, or, and I know you have strong thoughts about it, this idea of radical honesty. I've seen you push back on some CEOs who want to go either, they want to go to radical honesty either because, or radical candor, either because they're coming at it from a good place or conversely, they just want an excuse to be an asshole. So walk me through how one gives feedback that

is honest and authentic but isn't rude and offensive because this is a critical part of leadership. Well, yeah, that isn't that isn't that the goal, right? So do I want candidness, of course, but let's separate the idea of uncensored honesty for a second. Nobody wants to be around uncensored honesty. Because uncensored honesty is insult, right? It's total challenge. It's offensive. And in the worst way, I mean, imagine you woke up to somebody that you're committed to for the rest of your life.

And the first thing they did is look at you and went, wow, you really look bad and breath stinks. And like, what's in your eye? And like it, you know, I mean, oh my goodness gracious, probably by the way, they're probably thinking those things, but they're smart enough to hold the relationship enough forever and it's not to do that stuff. Nobody wants to be around uncensored honesty. But now the next point is we also though, we want honesty

from people, we want to know what they really thinking what their real views are around things that matter to us. And so, so the question is, how do you express that? And so, and by the way, most of these leaders that say they want radical transparency or radical candidness and so forth, yeah, they wanted from other people, they want other people to do it,

they don't want it themselves. I mean, they would be very hard taken by any of that candidness. They would be, they would sting to the point where they would go, okay, whatever this is, I don, by any of that candidness. They would be, they would sting to the point where they would go, okay, whatever this is, I don't want, I don't want any of it. So, so the question then is, you know, how do you produce as much candidness, as much openness and as much frankness as you possibly can? And it's all about how you carry feedback. And when you study the best leaders, you learn that there's a variety of behaviors and routines by which they carry feedback in a way that doesn't sting and that's very, very honest. And it's about teaching people how to do some of those

things and in the process of that, making them more skillful so that they can, they actually reward honesty and then encourage it and then give it. And so. Yeah, and I found, I found two that feedback has, it's not just that it has to be constructive, it has to be concrete. I was talking to a friend a few years ago who was asking for some feedback, and I said, look, you're a very so critic person. You're always asking questions, poking, like, hey, why is it this way? Hey, is that really the best way?

I said, it's very provocative and interesting, but I was like, you have to remember, they killed Socrates, right? Nobody just wants someone coming around poking holes at things, pointing out how things are not as good as they could be. My publisher will do this sometimes, so go, yeah, it's good, but don't you think there's something better we could do? And I, you know, it's like, yeah, sure. If I knew what that was, I'd probably have done it,

right? So I have to imagine that as an advisor and a coach and as a leader, you also have to find this, it's easy to find fault, but how do you find solutions that go along with the fault that you've found? That's how you build a productive collaborative relationship as a leader. Absolutely. Fault without a fault without a solution, by the way, is complaint. Yes. It's not even feedback. It's just a complaint. By the way, nothing drives me wilder than people that complain, but don't have any intention of doing anything about it. They just want to complain catharsis. I don't have time for catharsis. I have time to do things about things. but think about this.

The very nature of feedback is a direction and it comes from a place of power. That's why we call feedback, by the way, because there's other words we can bandy about and they have less power associated with them. So for example, the word advice, it also comes from a place of expertise, but we're often thought that we can accept a reject advice.

Where feedback is directionally from someone who holds a legitimate role or power or authority, right? A coach to us, to a player, a teacher to a student, a parent to a child, a team leader to a team member, right? So the very nature of using the word feedback suggests this is a directive action that I'm doing hopefully with good intentions to improve your performance, but I'm kind of like, I don't wanna couch it this way, but I'm kinda not asking you,

I'm kinda telling you, I might even show you, but I'm telling you that, directly this is something you need to do. And it's coming from a place of my experience expertise, but it's also coming from a place of power. Well, how but if I instead I offer it as advice? How but if I say, hey, this has just been my experience expertise, but it's also coming from a place of power. Well, how have it if I'd said I offered his advice? How have it if I say, hey, this has just been my wise counsel, and this is something I

was thinking, I'd offer you this advice. All of a sudden, people are less reactive to that. Well, let's take it even further, right? Let's just say we're going to offer a suggestion. Not even a recommendation, because a recommendation is more advice. Just a suggestion. I have a suggestion. Notice, most people don't go, like, well well, like that feels terrible. Okay. Right. Now, why do leaders

not offer more suggestions? Well, because they want things to happen more quickly, they want things to happen from a directional standpoint of like, I want you to own this. But more importantly, they like the power. They like to feel powerful. And so they don't, and they want to be right. And so suggestion means maybe I'm not right. Well, gosh, feedback says, I already know what the right answer is. And I'm just telling you, I'm carrying that information to you.

So even the very nature of what you, how you couch what you say, is either going to create more resistance and more acceptance, just in the very descriptor of the words. I mean, then I haven't even told you anything important yet. I'm just saying. So whether I say, hey, I've got some feedback for you, right? By the way, as soon as somebody says that,

you know it's directive. And it's probably bad. The feedback's not your doing a great job. Probably. Versus I have some advice for you. Versus I have a suggestion. And then I can go even further than that. I mean, one of the coolest behaviors

that we have found is how the best leaders ask for help as a way of carrying feedback. So instead of saying to you, like, you know, you talk up too much of team meetings, like you dominate team meetings and other people are intimidated as a result. They don't take the risk because they know you're going to take the risks. And so we're, so the team meetings aren't going the way they want because of you, right? That's my view. I might be right. It might be wrong, but that's my view.

I can say, can I give you a little feedback, right? And you know, like, you need, this is you as Randall the, yeah, yeah. I can give you a little feedback. Or the leader, right? I can give you a little feedback. Let me give you some feedback that you're talking up too much. And this is what you need to do differently,

in the future, or I can say, you know, can I give you a little advice, or I can say, can I make a suggestion that when you do this, this is what happens. And so my suggestion is you do a little less of that. Or I can say, hey, I'm trying to build a team as I think you are with me that all everybody wants to participate and everybody wants to be here, but more importantly, they're willing to take their risks. And so I need your help. Okay, I need your help to get this done. And one of the things, can you help me

by encouraging other people to speak up? And person says, well, of course I can. And you say, well, what do you think gets us there? Well, how do you think you can encourage them? I know how I can encourage them. Well, maybe I can ask them questions. I'll go, that's good, that's good. And maybe one thing you could do to help me

is maybe you can wait for their answers and not reply for them, because I think you do that sometimes. I think I do that sometimes. Would you be willing to help me that way? Of course, and by the way, I just carried tremendous amounts of feedback, but it has no resistance to it all

because I've actually put myself in the supplicative role, no power at all. The least powerful thing I can do is ask you for help. And so how you carry feedback is everything. And there's lots of ways to carry it, most of which we're not taught to do. So as I saw this in the questions, so this is kind of a common scenario.

You, let's say you get to the place where you've couched the feedback and the supplicant role, you're asking for help. What do you do when someone is not acting on the feedback or the advice? How does a leader respond in your experience? What does a great leader do when they're having trouble getting people to act on the changes or suggestions? Well, you know, it's a great question, but it could have, I could answer it in so many different ways, because some of it depends on how, where I think that resistance is coming. It's a good amount of credible, is it because they don't like my advice? Am I not practical enough, not

specific enough? Is it because they just don't like, they want to control and they want their own autonomy. I mean, there's so many answers. Sure. My generic answer to that question, which you're probably not so generic, is the first thing, when I know that people aren't listening, is I know that the one thing that responds to his data. So right now, this is just about me and you. But if I can make it about more people, so more, so I can actually collect or create some data for you. So, and by the way, I don't have to do it for you. Maybe I'll ask you to do it. And I say, Hey, I'd like you to talk to, you know, the three colleagues and ask them, what do they most appreciate about what's happening

in the meetings and what do they least appreciate what's happening to me? So I want you to go collect that day. Sure. I can do that, right? Right. Where I can say, hey, I've talked to everyone. And by the way, Bob says this and Jill says that and Jackie says this and right, and Sharon says this. And so, and I would concur, right? So data matters to people. And so show don't tell when 16, when 16 people say you look like a duck, trust me, you look like a duck. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that's one thing. Second thing though is, if people aren't listening, they might very well be because they're defensive in some way. And so what I want to do is I want to make this about our relationship. Tell me, like, let's explore, like I've asked you to do this thing and I think it would better you. And you're continually

not doing this and you're not being as effective. Let's explore why. And I'm gonna make this about me. What can I do? Like, what have an eye? You know, maybe I've not been clear. I'm gonna make this about me instead of you because that's how I'm gonna reduce your resistance.

And so let's make it about me first. And so, like, what resource do you need? What explanation do you need? Like, what help do you need? Do you need me to come do this thing with you? You need a tutor for your homework. You're not listening to me. So what do you need for me?

I'm gonna make this about me. And what that's gonna do is create some really real honesty around what's really going on here and in a non-defensive way. So many leaders, that's the last thing they would ever do is make it about themselves because you're the one not doing it. one not doing it, right? But the deal is do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? And being effective means what leaders have to do and we're now right full circle back to this idea of making other people better

and not being about yourself. You got to make it about you first, right? And so you're not doing so. I must have misled you. I haven't been clear in what I'm like, what do you need for me? Okay. Now, let's just say that doesn't work still. I love the idea of simply asking you to be in my shoes. So listen, Brian, okay. I've told you X, Y and Z like multiple times, okay. You clearly have an act on it.

We've had conversations about that. So, and so on. So now you're me. What would you tell you? Right. I like that a lot. Sure. Let's change roles. Let's it, right? And that's an interesting way of playing. Or I might say instead, right? I have somebody else that doesn't, isn't responding to feedback. I've given this feedback where I ask, what would you say to them?

Okay, because you know I'm talking about you, but what would you tell somebody else? Okay. And now, suddenly that opens up a a conversation because what I'm trying to do in each of these cases is I'm trying to open the dialogue and Create a relational Supportive way by which we can explore what's going on here because I don't know what's going on here I just know that you're not doing what I need you to do You know what I think all those have inages have really key stood virtue. I would say is restraint. The leader has power in the scenarios that you're talking about. They can fire the person. They can yell at the person. They can reassign the job. They can just force the thing to

happen. But in all the scenarios you've described, the leader is it's not that they're abdicating the power, but they're restraining from using the power and instead trying to get the other person to do the thing under their own power. And I think Eisenhower said that his definition of leadership was to get someone to do something because they want to do it. And that strikes me as maybe the root of your philosophy there. We're at least within the context of the relationship. But one thing you're going to learn this one day, because you'll have a teenager one day. Pretty soon, you're going to realize you've got to give up power to keep power.

You've got to give up power to maintain power. Just like you have to give respect to get respect, give trust to gain trust, right? The power is a really interesting thing. That if you hold it too closely, you actually have less of it. And if you act too powerfully, the only thing that works is to act more powerfully next time. Yes. So it's a very elusive, misunderstood thing that I just find, and again, it takes real maturity,

but all it really takes for all of us is to have a teenager. And then you'll solve it, you'll figure it out or you'll drown in the process. But, you know, at some point you realize I can't force my child without being arrested to get on that bus. It has to be his or her idea. And if I haven't instilled those values and if they look at me and go, I'm not getting on the bus. Like, I don't have a lot I can do actually right at the moment to get them on the bus. Like I don't have a lot I can do actually, right at the moment to get them on that bus. I can't physically put my hands on them. Otherwise, the police will be coming for me.

So now what do I, so I've chosen, right, for whatever reason I've created a situation where I haven't given up enough power in order to maintain my authority and power. And that's just, that just happens all the time. And the best leaders, the people that are wise, realized, this isn't about me in control or me directing things.

This is about me making it your idea and creating a context for a relationship where we trust each other, we respect each other, and you'll do this for me because you know I would do it for you. And that changes everything, right? But so many of us just aren't patient enough, I'm sure enough to do that. Yeah, I found that at American Apparel when Dove sort of had set up this culture of, if you screwed up, you got yelled at, but there was never anything beyond getting yelled

at, right? So what you found is that in competent people, it filtered for incompetent people who were okay being the LDAT. They basically realized, if I can just endure this beating, essentially, that will be the end of this. There'll be no other consequences, no other changes, no other adjustments.

So if I can just be like, you know, okay being yelled at, the storm will pass and then I can just go back to being whoever I wanna be. So sad, because you're managing the amount of disrespect that people have from themselves for being willing to be yelled at, right? Yes, so they wake up every morning, look in the mirror and go,

not only am I gonna get yelled at, but I'm the kind of person that is willing to be yelled at. Right. It's a tremendous, tremendous helplessness, creates tremendous apathy, right? Talk about commitment, dedication, right, to a cause or to a purpose. That's the recipe for how you don't create it. So again, there's so much stuff for you and I talk about, but that's just so fascinating because so many leaders move to the expedient and what seems like to be the most effective thing to do. Like coercion, like punishment, like threat.

I mean, it's such a simple thing to do. And by the way, the reason it's so seductive is because it works. The problem is that by the way, once you move's so seductive is because it works. The problem is that by the way, you know, if you once you move that way, you've now destroyed the relationship and have hurt and harmed the trust enough where the only thing that will work is more coercion. Right. And so now you're stuck. You're in a cycle. And here's what we know, not me personally, but in the literature. If you're going to be a coercive leader, you're going to threaten and yell at people, whatever whatever your version of coercion is, you got to be physically present. Otherwise, they thumb their nose at you. So if you're going to be a parent

that's coercive, you got to be in the house. Because the moment you go on vacation, these kids are going to destroy things, right? They don't hold the values at all because they're just trying not to get the punishment. Same thing's true in organizations. If you're not physically in the office, people are gonna do everything they're powered to exert their own control and autonomy and prove to people that you don't control them because you're not there to yell at them.

So they will do terrible things. So you have the opposite. So if you're gonna be coercive, you gotta be really good at it. It's gonna happen all the time and you gotta be physically present. Sounds like a horrible leadership life to me. Yes.

I'll leave that to other people. No, you get in a feedback loop and I've gotten in that myself where the person is in a job they can't do, you're unable to reach and change them. And so you get in this like almost abusive feedback loop where they're not doing what you're they're supposed to do. You're yelling at them. They don't care because you're yelling at them. Someone posted in the thing that that cliche, the beatings will continue until morale improves. You know, there's, there are also just situations where it's like, this is not a fit. And we're going to be happier if we part ways. Yeah, but your notion of social action is exactly right.

I mean, I've had multiple organizations where I've sat down and said, let's talk about the strengths weaknesses of this organization. Let's start with the idea that everybody still selects for the top, for the behavior that happens here. Sure. Your reputation is widely known

and your interviewing process is transparent enough where people go, ah, okay, I got to be this kind of person to work here. Otherwise, like, this is going to work. And so you lose, you know, top talent as a result, but people are blind to that for the most part. So you talked about this idea of giving up power to keep power. One of the ways I've seen you do this, you've talked about it. Maybe it doesn't seem like giving up power, but it is. I think so often people think the leader is in charge, it's all about the leader. The leader is the main person, that's who we're all behind.

But you've talked about this idea that a leader is a fan, that you want to be at what was it you wanted to be a great fan or unconditional fan. Walk me through your sort of, it's not quite sheer leading, but talk to me about how a leader is a fan and supports the people who work for them. I found this really interesting. So that's really the magic

or the foundation of inspiration and motivation, right? I mean, people get inspired and motivated, but lots of things. But the one thing that everyone wants more than anything else is the people that they respect and admired rooting for them, cheering for them, clapping for them, right? I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be, I'm going to hold you accountable. Our relationship has nothing to do with your performance, but I am here to help you succeed, and I want you to succeed, and I'm going to do everything in my power to do with your performance, but I am here to help you succeed, and I want you to succeed, and I'm gonna do everything in my power to do so. I'm not gonna put up hurdles. I'm not gonna, you know, create a gauntlet for you.

I am gonna simply root for you, and I'm gonna demonstrate. Me saying I'm your fan means nothing, but I'm gonna demonstrate to you that I am in your corner, and I am trying my best to help you succeed in every way you want to succeed. And when you have that in your corner, it's wind, wind at your back, and you'll do anything for people that are great fans of yours.

And we all want parents and coaches and teachers that are great fans, and many of them aren't. Unfortunately, they just don't have that in their head. In fact, they think it's about demand and challenge and a lot of other things, of which there's places for those things. But at the end of the day, the composite of you, they think it's about demand and challenge and a lot of other things of which there's places for those things. But at the end of the day, the composite of you, are you rooting for me or you, my fan, or less so?

And my ability to stay committed and loyal to you and reciprocate that support is a function of how you demonstrated to me. Yeah, we told the story in the Daily Dad email a few months ago about Jim Volvano, the basketball coach, his father, Volvano, as a kid, it said to his father, I think I want to be a basketball coach. That's what I want to do.

And so the dad says, yeah, sure, that sounds great. And he thought it was the end of the conversation. The next day, Volvano's father calls him into his bedroom and there's a suitcase packed on the bed. And Jim says, what's that? And his dad says, that's my suitcase. It's packed and ready to go for when you coach in the final four.

And it gives me goosebumps to think about that to think about what that must have meant to a kid, right? That your dad would do a demonstration. So sort of so clean and simple and earnest that like I'm in your corner and I want to help you be successful. It's just a beautiful thing. Beautiful is exactly the right word. It is beautiful, right?

And when you have that and you experience that level of fan-ness and you want to do it for other people. And by the way, that's your job as a leader. And if you can't be my fan, you should not be leading me. Yes. Okay. And by the way, if you can't be my fan and I'm your child, right, or I'm your spouse, you shouldn't have gotten in this contract with me. Sure. Right. And so that's your job. And good days and bad days.

And most of us can be fans when things are going well. Right. Good grades come home when the marriage is wonderful and so forth. When the team is performing, the question is, your job is to be and show fairness, independent of good or bad outcomes. Your job is to be that thing, because that's what leadership in some aspect,

not all of leadership, but some aspect of leadership called motivation inspiration. That's what requires. And the more that you can develop the behaviors and the routines of fairness, of which we know, like 48 of them that we've been able to uncover,

then the more you'll be able to demonstrate that to people and create and motivate and inspire people without having to know exactly whether they're coin operated or whether they like, you know, to be threatened or whether they really like autonomy or they want mastery or they want purpose, they want higher, higher, I got to like all those things, but I want a universal where I know that I'm going to show up anytime, any day with anybody, and I'm gonna be more inspirational and motivational, and I know it's famous. That if I can demonstrate fairness,

that's what gets produced. Here's a situation I saw someone mentioned, but I've struggled with it myself. What do you do? I found myself, especially with some young people that I've hired. I found myself saying these words, like, I can't want this for you more than you want it

for yourself. So what do you more than you want it for yourself. So what do you do when you are a fan of someone, you do want them to be successful, you are rooting for them, but they seem to be stuck in some sort of trap of self doubt or fear or laziness or entitlement. What do you do when, how do you get people to rise to their level of potential or excellence? So you shake them up, but shaking them up doesn't necessarily a negative, right?

There's lots of ways of shaking people up. Like sometimes it's around, it's about putting them in the right context so that they're able to succeed at a higher level. Like for example, you probably know this, but I work with lots of college golf teams. And one of the things I like to do is I like to take the teams a couple of weeks before they, you know, have a big tournament. I like to put them on a course that everyone's going to shoot 63 on. Yeah. Like the whole short course, it's easy course, and they're all going to just shoot this really low number.

Okay. And then they go like, wow, like that felt really good. Damn, right. Okay. And by the way, it's not going to be like that in a couple of weeks. So that's the last time we're going to do that. But I want to pump you up. I want to shake you up. I want to get your confidence as high as I can get it as an example. Or it might be that I just need to put you in a situation where you can demonstrate your skills and your skills will be more rewarded, not just by me, but by other people.

You'll be able to compete in a different way. Or I mean, there's so many ways that I would probably try to shake somebody up. It would depend on that context. But at the end of the day, that's what's going to be in my head. I just want to just give you superlatives and try. I want to shake you up. I want to create a context by which you can come to see yourself differently, or at least see yourself

more like I see you, which is very capable. I'll tell you this, giving an example, I have a very talented person in our team. And for whatever reason, she goes in and out of confidence, in and out of confidence. And I've tried lots of different things. Well, I had a very honest conversation with her, the other, about two or three weeks ago.

And she was shocked by it, by the way. And I'll tell you how it ended up. But what I said to her, I took a chance and I said, you know, I feel insulted by you. And she said, we meet. I said, I have all this confidence in you more than you have confidence in yourself. But what you're telling me when you lack confidence in yourself is that I must be stupid. My confidence is unfounded that I must not be a good judge. And I just, I find that insulted. She said, it never occurred to me that you could be insulted by my lack of low confidence.

And I go, I think the world of you and I've invested a tremendous amount of resource. And here you are undermining yourself. And you're basically calling me stupid. And she said, seriously, and I said, not completely, but mostly. And I said, you gotta stop it. And believe it, seriously, and I said, not completely, but mostly. Yeah. And I said, you got to stop it. And believe it or not, that was the thing to sugar up. And now she goes, listen, if if Randall thinks that that highly of me, I better start getting on the

on the train. I better think that highly of me because if I don't, I'm basically not believing in him. And I believe definitely in him. And by the way, I like that conversation a lot because maybe you feel good, right? But at the end of the day, you gotta shake people up because you can't let them stay in this place where they are underperforming based on what they're pop, what's capable of because they simply lack a view or a perspective or a context

by which they can assess themselves more objectively. Well, and to go to the conversation you just mentioned, that's another example of giving up power. You're not saying, I'm the leader, I'm the boss, you need to change how you think. You're actually flipping it on its head and you're saying, you have power over me because I feel insecure or doubtful insulted by how you're choosing to see yourself

and it's forcing them into the position of going, oh, I have to step up, be confident, believe in myself. So I can be there for Randall. Exactly right, sneaky, isn't it? Yes, by the way, all great leadership of sneaky. And I don't mean sneaking a manipulative deceptive way. Sneaking in the sense of its subtleties, its nuance. And the nuance, the you and I are sharing,

there's lots of other nuances, but one of them is giving up power. You gotta give up power to be powerful. And just like, if you hold a ball really, really tight, you won't have control over the ball. The tighter you control, you have a grip on that ball, the less control you have over that ball. The same thing is true in human behavior. The tighter you hold things, the less control, the less influence, and the less effectiveness you're going to have

in that situation. Which is counterintuitive. I saw someone mentioned this, so I'm glad you brought it up. What is the line distinction balance between sneaky and manipulative? Because there are other leaders who, you know, that they're sort of playing this game or they're trying to pit people against each other or trying to sneak this, like, how does one sort of do the jujitsu that you're talking about without that bleeding over into a kind of manipulativeness or Machiavellianism or what have you? Positive intentions.

Where are your intentions? At the end of the day, I can't judge you for anything other than that. I can't judge only the outcomes because those happen, those are moderated by other things. Sure. I can't judge perfectly your character generally speaking because that may apply, not apply in this moment. What I can do is say, from what you've demonstrated, what you said, what you did. And by asking you, what were your intentions?

And how positive were they? And how much were they about you, or how much were they about me, and were those intentions pro-social, were they things where you actually thought that would help, or was this about you right getting your way? Because when you're manipulative and deceptive and sneaky in the negative way, it's because it's about you getting your way, okay? When you're clever and industrious and creative and sneaky in a positive way, you're being intentional in a positive way to other people. So it's all about intentions for me.

So this idea of being a student of leadership, obviously you've had now four decades of actually being in the room where things are happening. Are there any leaders you think people should study or know about perhaps ones that they don't know and and what would be some books you might recommend to aspiring or struggling leaders? So, you know, I don't even know how to take that question because I hold the opposite view. I don't want anybody holding up leaders to study or emulate. And the reason is, and I want to correct that in a second,

but the reason is this, we make heroes out of people and they disappoint us, right? They're never as good or as flawless as we'd like to make. And they're always gonna get us in trouble and they're always gonna do things, because we're human, we're all flawed. So it's time for us to stop celebrating people and celebrate actions and behaviors instead.

You know, I'm not a big fan of Steve Jobs for what I know and how I know and so forth and so on. But he's got a couple of behaviors that I teach everybody. Sure. And I don't have to tell them they're from Steve Jobs. I don't tell them, I never tell anybody anything where they come from because it's irrelevant where they come from. We should hold up the actions of great leaders, the judgments of great leaders. So let me tell you this, for example, imagine that we started a dialogue together and it's something where we expect that we haven't found common ground before.

This is going to be a difficult conversation and the like. But I want to have it open as honest conversation. Imagine I say to you, I want to commit to you right now that I acknowledge that I could be entirely wrong about how I see things. I just want to start there. And I'd like, you know, I'd love for you to reciprocate, I'm not going to require, but I want to start with this place that says, I acknowledge that I might be totally wrong and I'm doing so publicly in front of you or in front of this team. Okay. Now let's have a conversation from there. What impact do you think that has on the openness or the transparency of that conversation?

I think it has a lot. It's very desirable. I think it's a very wonderful thing to do, especially in high conflict situations where people are more likely to dig in and be big advocates for what they believe and don't believe there's anybody else. But when you start there again about you, right?

Well, guess what? Where I learned that from? One of the few things I learned from Abraham Lincoln. But I don't call it the about you, right? Well, guess what? Where I learned that from? One of the few things I learned from Abraham Lincoln. But I don't call it the Lincoln thing, right? And I don't hold up Lincoln because, by the way, Lincoln's son hated him so much. He chose to end the generation, right? The Lincoln died with his son because he hated

his father so much because he was ignored as a kid and chose never to have offspring on purpose. Not a flawless leader. I'm sure glad Lincoln existed, though, Not a flawless leader. I'm sure glad Lincoln existed, though, by the way, and I'm sure glad he was what he was. Probably married Dodd didn't probably wouldn't agree with our general view of Abraham Lincoln, but there's things we can learn from people. It's time to celebrate actions, the behaviors. Instead of people, people are always going to disappoint us. They're flawed. Right. They're always going to get us in trouble.

Somebody can have integrity for 55 straight years and lose it one morning. Okay. And by doing the wrong thing and engaging in the wrong action, I can't stop that. But what I can do is stop worshipping them. And I can start holding up their behaviors and saying, here's something I can learn

and apply for the rest of my life. And it doesn't matter who came from Abraham Lincoln or Steve Jobs, whoever it came from. Okay. As an example. What are some books then that you might recommend that have good leadership behaviors in them? I do like this distinction. It's well said. There's actually a book I love. I have it up here called Lincoln's Virtues. It's less about Lincoln and more about the idea of basically the premise of the book as I recall it is, Lincoln was not a saint. Lincoln was a politician. So how did Lincoln get things done as a politician? That's something we can learn from him. So are there some books you commonly give to the leaders that you work with? There aren't.

It just depends on the context or things that I like at given moments of time. I'm a big fan right now. I've never met her. Katie Nookman wrote that book recently called How We Change. It's great. All around personal habits. I like it as good as I'd like just about anything else lately.

And so if you show me and you say the last six months, what's something that I think is worth reading, there are things worth reading. I like read hastings, the Netflix book, New Rules Rules. I think that's, it's got some really interesting stuff in it. I like his metaphorical density in there and some things. But there's no one particular book that I say to everybody, you need to read this.

OK? Now, if you told me, it was only one thing, right, that I had to read. And so there's an old book called Management of the Observe that I just have to have very be very fond of. And it's from 1996. It's hard to find now and so forth. But basically, what the author of the Management of Observe

does is he basically takes concept of problems and dilemmas and says, what's the difference? And he does that. What's the difference between this and this? And he makes some really interesting points and he kind of shakes you up, right? And he kind of gives you a different point of view, really, really fast in a very, very thin book.

I love that book. I used to give it to everybody. I don't give it to anybody now because I can't get it. But you can find it on A, B books and things like that. But and maybe they brought it back out since now that I'm saying this, I have no idea if it's been republished or not. But I am not a big fan of this, you got to read this.

I'm sure you can read programs. Give me a topic and I'll give you some seminal things that I think are not the everyday stuff to read. But there's just no one book. I'm a big fan of, there was a guy named Sample who wrote a book in 2002. He was the president of USC called the Contraryns Guide to Leadership. And you know, you'll smile because it's contrarian, you know, I'm contrarian. But he writes a chapter on thinking gray. I have lots of people read that. I love that chapter on thinking gray.

Because way too many leaders don't think gray enough. But now there's not one thing Ryan, if you told me like, what about this topic or that topic then I'd give you books, but nothing, nothing that I give everybody. Well, I do feel like that's what a great coach does. A great coach doesn't say, hey, read this general book. A coach says on page 22 of this book,

published in 1940, is an insight that might unlock something for you about this very specific problem that you have. Exactly, right. So as we wrap up, one thing I wanted to talk to you about, and I think I mentioned it before, but when I came out and visited you, I have no conception of time anymore. It could have been five years ago, it could have been

exactly two days before the pandemic started. But I remember I went for a run. This is like February in Pennsylvania. It was very cold. I went for a run and I ended up in trety-frin Pennsylvania. Is my pronouncing pronouncing that right? And I came across this little revolutionary word cemetery. And almost it just snows, everything was dusted in snow. And almost all the graves were old and decayed. You couldn't, you couldn't read them. And there was one dated to, I think, 1805. And this is the inscription I thought I'd read it to because to me,

it's, it's, it's the epitaph that a leader should aspire to. It's a versus this is for a woman named Margaretta work iser and it says versus on tombstones are but idly spent the living character is the monument. It's cool. And isn't that what we're aspiring to do as a leader? It's not to, you know, leaders think about their legacy or they think about, you know, generational wealth. But really, if we go back to this idea of leaders make people better, the real monument you leave behind, as Jackie Robinson said,

is the impact that we have on other people's lives, on our children, on our family, and on the people who decided to join us on whatever journey that we're on. I mean, listen, I've interviewed lots of leaders at the end of their lives, and everybody says the same thing. It's all about who you matter to.

And that's the recipe for success, right? But if I would add to your commentary, which I think is a great one, to me, this whole idea of success and being a successful leader in legacy, and everything else, so outcome oriented. When I studied the best leaders in the world and something that I've learned to aspire to myself

and through them, I didn't conceive of this, but this idea of instead of trying to succeed, working really hard to deserve to succeed. When you deserve to succeed, trust me, it'll happen. The square will take care of itself. The victories will come. Whatever the successes will happen. But most of us don't work hard enough on us

to deserve to succeed. What would you really deserve it? And that's all about you. It's all about your character, it's about your behaviors, it's about the choices you make, do you deserve to succeed? And I think that's wholly what I believe in terms of that kind of a larger epitaph of what's life about. I think it's about trying to deserve success, not necessarily attain it. There's a story I'm gonna tell in the book

that I'm writing now. Do you know who Admiral Rickover was? He basically invented the nuclear navy. One of the great unsung leaders of the 20th century. We've studied him. Yeah, so he would person, we talked about culture as well. He would personally interview every

person that was hired to work on a nuclear submarine. And he interviewed Jimmy Carter as a young man, right when Jimmy Carter had just come out of the naval academy. And he's interviewing Carter and Carter's bragging about his grades and his performance and the assignments and all of that. And Rick over looks at him and he says, but did you always do your best? And Carter says, thinks about it and says,

no, I don't think I always did my best. And Rick over gets up and says, why not? And then walks out of the room. And if we're thinking about the living monument, it's not whether we always succeeded, whether we won, whether we were a transformative president or a, you know, seen as a mediocre president in Jimmy Carter's case, it's, did we do our best, right?

Did we deserve success as you were saying? That's what leadership is. Absolutely. And so many great leaders have that view and they say it in different ways, right? But, you know, the problem Brian is for you and me is we like, we agree too much. Like conversations aren't interesting enough

to other people because we just have too much of the same ideas in our head. Well, there's another funny story about Rick Over. He once gave one of his subordinates a negative review and the guy said, why? I thought I was doing great. And he said, you haven't once disagreed with me the entire time that you've worked for me. Here you go.

There you go. No, Randall, it's always amazing to talk to you. You've been a wonderful mentor and guide to me. And I know I've spoken to many of your, uh, called them protégés slash advises and they absolutely rave about what you do. And I think about your thing about being a fan almost every day as a parent. So you've made me better as a result.

And I'm just, I'm a huge fan and I'm so glad we got to meet. And thank you for doing this. And I know a lot of people are gonna get a lot out of it. My pleasure and thank you. I wouldn't be in our relationship if I didn't learn from you. And so it's been reciprocal.

Like I had a friend say to me once he said, I said thank you for your friendship. He said all friendship is reciprocal. Thank you for years. And it's true. It likewise, I appreciate that so much. And I hope to come out and see you guys again in person sometime.

Okay, great. We just reopened the course. So you get access to all my conversations, the Q&A's I did, all of that and you can check that out at dailystoke.com slash leadership challenge. I think you'll really like it. We've had some awesome testimonials. Actually, you know what, here, I'll give you one of the testimonials right now. I really enjoyed this program. Thank you for I've done almost almost all the daily stoic challenges since I started doing them like five years ago or so. And I have to say that the cost of the program and the amount of value brought in was quite amazing.

So anyways don't take my word for it. Listen to him. Check out the Daily Stoke Leadership Challenge at dailystoke.com slash leadership challenge. ... Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoke early and ad- free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and add free with Wondery Plus in Apple Podcasts.