The Daily Stoic - Rupi Kaur on 10 Years of Milk & Honey, Overcoming Imposter Syndrome, and Empowering Others

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

In 2014, a few months after Ryan Holiday released his first book on Stoicism, The Obstacle Is the Way, another young author, Rupi Kaur, self-published her first book, milk and honey. Her collection of poems quickly became a huge success, becoming one of the highest-selling poetry books of the 21st century. Now, 10 years later, Ryan and Rupi reflect on the ups and downs that followed the releases of The Obstacle Is the Way and milk and honey. Rupi shares with Ryan what it was like revisiting her work from 10 years ago, why she initially thought publishing milk and honey was a huge mistake, and profound moments she has experienced with her audience around the world. You can get signed copies of Rupi’s 10th Anniversary Edition of milk and honey, the original milk and honey, the sun and her flowers, and homebody at The Painted Porch.Follow Rupi on Instagram and X @RupiKaur_ and check out her website rupikaur.com📕 Get a signed, numbered first-edition of the 10th Anniversary Edition of The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday at dailystoic.com/obstacle🎙️ Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. So for this tour I was just doing in Europe, we had I think four days in London and I was with my kids, my wife and my in-laws. So we knew we didn't want to stay in a hotel. We'd spend a fortune. We'd be cramped. So we booked an Airbnb and it was awesome. As it happens, the Airbnb we stayed in was like this super historic building. I think it was where like the first meeting of the Red Cross or the Salvation Army ever was. It was awesome. That's why I love staying in Airbnbs.

To stay in a cool place, you get a sense of what the place is actually like. You're coming home to your house, not to the lobby of a hotel every night. It just made it easier to coordinate everything and get a sense of what the city is like. When I spent last summer in LA, we used an Airbnb also. So you may have read something that I wrote while staying in an Airbnb. Airbnb has the flexibility in size and location that work for your family and you can always find awesome stuff. You click on guest favorites to narrow your search down. Travel is always stressful. It's always hard to be away from home. But if you're going to do it, do it right. And that's why you should check out Airbnb.

Welcome to the Daily Stoic podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives. Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast.

As you know, this was the 10 year anniversary of Obstacle. I was just talking to my father-in-law, that Daily Stilick is on its 10 year anniversary next year. And you don't think about it at the time, but you're always kind of part of a class, right? A bunch of people, this is what the selection bias is creating on us at all times, right? Which starts out at a big group

and then winnows and winnows and winnows. And then you realize, oh, these were my peers all along, even though maybe we didn't know each other or connect in any way. But I had a guest out to the podcast a month and a half ago, then we've been waiting to run it for a little bit. And she had just put out the 10 year anniversary edition of her book. I don't know if you've seen Milk and Honey,

which my guest today, Rupi Kaur, self-published in 2014. And it became one of the best-selling poetry books of all time. It was briefly outselling even The Odyssey. Her collections have sold something like 12 million copies and been translated into 40 languages. As I said, Milk and Honey is one of the highest selling poetry books of the 21st century.

So as she was using social media and the internet to sort of help people rediscover poetry, I was doing the same thing with The Daily Stoke. And so last year, 2024, technically this year, while I'm recording it, but we were both celebrating our 10-year anniversary edition. And she brought a copy of it. We sell a ton of milk and honey and sun and her flowers and homebody at the painted porch. These are all beautiful and

little and they make great gifts. But anyways, she brought her 10-year anniversary edition of the book. And I had just gotten copies of the 10 year anniversary edition of Obstacle. And I was like, Oh man, you did it way better than I did because what she did, she took this poetry book and then it's annotated by her and by fans of it, including some people who've been on the show, like Camila Cabello. But it was just a beautiful idea seeing how people, like if you've ever seen the 40 Years of Power, it's got the little sort of annotations, the little things on the side and the marginalia. And, and she did that though, with people reacting to the poetry. And literally, the first thing I did was take pictures of it and send it to Robert Greene and go, Robert Greene,

I would kill for an annotated edition of the 48 laws of power. And you know what he told me, and I'd forgotten about this. He was like, about 10 years ago at auction, Michael Jackson's copy of the 48 lawss of Power went up for sale and his annotations were in the margins. So I was like, that's what I want. I want to see four star generals and celebrities and academics and people who read it while they were in prison.

I want to see those people's reactions to the things in the book. All of which is to say, I really thought that this new annotated edition of Milk and Honey was great. Rupi put out a book in 2022 called Healing Through Words. That's worth checking out. So anyways, this is a great conversation. We talked about our experiences like what is it like to revisit something you wrote? I like I don't even feel like I could have a 10 year old book, let alone to have a book that is still selling 10 years old.

It's just crazy, I don't feel old enough, but here we are. And so it was a great conversation. I really liked it. You can get signed copies of the 10th anniversary edition of Milk and Honey and the original Milk and Honey, Son of Her Flowers and Homebody at The Painted Porch. I will link to that in today's show notes.

You can follow her Instagram, where she is of course very popular, at Rupi Carr. That's R-U-P-I-K-A-U-R. Rupi and my wife hit it off. She left with a big pile of recommendations, which I'm sure we will post on YouTube soon enough. By the way, every time we have a guest, we walk through the bookstore after

and I pick out books that I think they'll like. We run those over on the Ryan Holiday YouTube channel. I'll link to that. Enjoy. and run those over on the Ryan Holiday YouTube channel. I'll link to that. Enjoy. It's weird being an author or writer, and then you have to like talk to people.

You're like, this is why I became this thing because I don't like doing that thing. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. I like performing though. Yeah, there is a element of performance to poetry that I don't think. I do love that. Are you giving talks or? Yeah, usually.

Do you enjoy it? Well, I feel like music, it's playing. I think if you're giving a talk or performing, it's not fun. I don't know that many people that are like, yeah, I really became a writer because I like to talk in front of large people. No, we don't like to talk is why we write. Yes, exactly. Come on. Yeah, no, no.

For me, writing is the engine that drives it all. And then there are these other things that you have to do in this day and age. I'm sure for you, that's like what social media is. Yes. But like, it's actually the doing the thing that you. That's what I love the most, but it's wild, I mean. All of the other things now take up more time...

Yes. ...than the thing I like to do, and I'm really trying to figure out how to just do the thing I love to do, but it's such a difficult bound. No, no, no, I've thought about that a lot. Like, the reward for succeeding at your craft should not be that you don't have time to do the craft anymore.

Exactly. But that's how it goes. Yeah. And I wonder if there's like a way, I mean there is, you just have to like, I don't know, spend less time doing other things, less panels, less pig gigs, I guess. There's a Frank Ocean line where he says you just have to be comfortable making less money. Yes. That's very hard. money. Yes. But that's very hard.

Yes, yes, exactly. It's like the opportunity costs of not doing the craft are not visible, right? So the day, like you don't see the poem that you didn't write, you don't see the pages that you didn't do, or just like you don't see the reading that you didn't do, but there's a number attached to the gig that you turned down or the appearance that you didn't do. But there's a number attached to the gig that you turned down

or the appearance that you don't do or the whatever, right? So it requires, this is obviously first world discipline, but it requires a lot of discipline to be like, no, I'm gonna turn down X amount of money and I'm going to stay home and do what looks like nothing to most people. Right, I love that line that you said about you don't see the poem, you didn't write it.

Yeah. Yeah. And you don't see it day to day, but I think you do see it piling up. Yeah, and I think it's complicated too, cause like, even though like me and you, we've had so much success, I don't know, I still struggle with the fact that

there isn't security in being an artist. So I'm like, okay, well, let me just do all the paid things while I'm still getting them. And maybe that's like a fear mindset that like, you know. No, there's like a scarcity. You know, at some point they're not gonna be offering it to you and you would kill to do it for half that amount or a quarter of that amount or for free, you know.

But your book's 10 years old now. Like you've been telling yourself that for 10 years. Yeah. And it's like, I've been telling myself that for 10 years. And the clearly the solution I've been applying for 10 years isn't working or leading me to be happier. And at this 10 year mark, I'm really like, okay, the solution I'm applying needs to change now for the outcome to be different.

So what am I gonna do at the end of this tour? That is different. And I think I know what I'm gonna do, but it's scary. I've been talking about taking a real break for how many years now? I feel like five years now. That means stepping away from social media.

It means not feeding that engine. It means not rushing to write the next thing. It means really just, I have not prioritized my personal life at all, really. And relationships suffer because of it. Friendships suffer. And so I think it's like time for me to live and that's scary.

I love my work. I'm such an ambitious person, but clearly work success doesn't feed that human need to feel love and connected. Well, I'm always interested in the distinction between confidence and ego. And so I'm always interested in the distinction between confidence and ego. And so there's obviously ego in like the, oh, the audience will still be here when I come back.

Right, there's like- I don't know, will they? No, no, but like there's an ego in just saying like, oh, of course everyone will wait on me. I'll put the thing out when I'm done. Like there's an ego version. And then there's a confidence version where you're like, it would be okay if I took a year off.

Yeah. Some audience will still be there when I come back. I believe in my ability to earn an audience back, to get the momentum back, you know? And then there's like, there's also the insecurity of, if I stop, it will never come back together. Yes. Or whatever, you know?

And that, yeah, that's so hard. The last, I'm really, I relate to the last two, with the confidence and yeah, that it might not come back. But then I'm, I think that and I sit with that fear and then I'm like, it might not, but what's the alternative, me just continuing to live and work the way that I have been and then what's gonna change

if I've been saying that it isn't working. Well, then do you have the success or does the success have you? If you can't stop, then like, do you own anything or does the thing own you? Like, there's something sad about that. If it is true that you couldn't stop and take a year off or slow down or do it differently,

because it would all fall apart. And that may be true as I think about it, but that's like not so impressive then, is it? That like you're a change to it for the rest of your life. Exactly, that's not true success to me then. No. Yeah. It's like a form of slavery.

Exactly, you're like locked in the golden cage. Yeah. Like running on that hamster wheel. Yeah. It's like a form of slavery. Exactly. You're like locked in the golden cage. Yeah. Like running on that hamster wheel. Yeah. It's not always fun. What is it like to come back to your work, your first book 10 years after you put it out? It's really cool.

I mean, it's so, I tried to like put the feelings of what it's like to come back to it in the introduction. I started writing the introduction earlier this year and it's not, I've read Milk and Honey since it came out 10 years ago. I've read it cover to cover maybe three times. Twice when I had to record an audio book and a third time this year when I had to write, put together the 10 year anniversary edition. I feel like sometimes a lot of my work,

like I cringe at myself, you know, we all do, I think, when we read our work, and it's been around for many years. But when I read it earlier this year, I was like impressed with my younger self. Oh. I was like, wow, that teenager, she kind of was like cooler than she gave herself credit for. And she kind of was like, than she gave herself credit for.

And she kind of was like, never, she never celebrated herself. Yet how brilliant was she to lead me to the doorstep of the woman I am today? She delivered me to this moment. And that is phenomenal. And so it was very bittersweet as well, because I get to like, I feel like she created so fearlessly. And she had very little self-doubt, but that's because I get to like, I feel like she created so fearlessly and she had very little self doubt, but that's cause like she wasn't, she had nothing to lose really.

She had no audience. This wasn't her dream. She didn't even, it wasn't even in her reality. So she was just totally driven by passion. There's like an unencumberedness to doing your first thing because you don't know what you don't know and you're just doing it. Exactly, and then the fear came after

and the self-doubt came after and all the other things that aren't fun. And I was like, oh, I don't think I can do it again. And yet I wrote many books. Like I've written, I remember I wrote book two and I still was like, I'll never do it again. And then I wrote book three. I think now like, I'll never do it again. And then I wrote book three. I think now I'm like, okay, it will be hard.

It'll never get easy, but I will do it again. But it's funny cause like, I'm often referring back to my 21 year old self for inspiration. And for, I'm like, let me tap into her strength and let me tap into her fearlessness. So that's kind of been. No, I can relate to that because I'm just, I just did a 10 year anniversary of my first book.

I think my first feeling was I can't have a 10 year old book. Like I don't feel like I could do that because it also just feels so fresh. Weird. Yeah, it feels like it just happened. And then the other part that struck me was like, during the pandemic, I was trying to put my son to sleep one day.

And so I was like, I'd read all his stuff. He wasn't going to bed. I was like, okay, I'm gonna read you one of my books, like as a punishment. And I was reading it and what struck me about it was like, I was like, where did this person get off? I meant that in like a nice way. Like I was like, how did this 24 year old

possibly think they knew any of this? And then in some cases, like I didn't know and it was wrong, right? Like, and I went back and fixed that. But then the other part of me was like, how did I know something that I really had no business knowing? Like there's where you see those- But the audacity.

Yeah, the flashes of like, how could you have gotten something right that maybe you hadn't even fully experienced yet? It's so cool. Cause I feel like I totally relate to you. And it's like, I do feel like ideas, sometimes they work through us. Yes.

So you don't know, but the universe chose you to deliver that message. And that's pretty cool. But I feel you. I mean, I'm reading, when I was reading Milk and Honey again earlier this year, I was like, what? And the audacity to put it out, it's absolutely wild. When I was reading Milk and Honey again earlier this year, I was like, what?

And the audacity to put it out, it's absolutely wild. Yeah, the not going, how would this look for a insert age person to be saying this and to just say it as that person? To me, the enemy of good art is self-consciousness. Yes. The like, how is this gonna come off? What are people gonna think?

You have to be in the moment and just do it. And I imagine with poetry, it's even harder because poetry is more of a, I don't wanna say antiquated, but it's a thing so many people do badly and so few people get to be able to do. And so there's probably something about poetry too, where you're just like, like an imposter syndrome feeling

that would creep into doing poetry, I imagine. Mm-hmm. I don't know. I think when I'm writing, I mean, it hasn't been like this all the time. When I was writing Milk and Honey, I was so present with each piece. And so in those moments, I felt truly free. And I was writing without a focus on outcome or result

and writing without judgment. And so that was very freeing. And in a way, because I'm writing about my own experiences, that's freeing, because I'm like, yeah, you might not like it, but it's my experience. You can't take my story away from me. So, you know, and I struggled with book two and three, because then I was thinking about the outcome

and I was thinking about the results. And when I'm thinking about that, then as I'm writing, the judgment is right there. And that's when the writer's block comes out for me. But I'm finally, I mean, 10 years later, back in a place where I am writing without judgment. Were you able to do, I don't know the timeline exactly, Bill Kintuny, the book, or most of the poems come before social media, right?

A lot of them do. Like, I started writing them in maybe 2010, 2011. I was performing first. So I was on stage in front of a microphone. That's where, that's how I fell in love with the craft. And then I would write to perform. And all of my pieces were much longer performative pieces, anywhere from two to six minutes.

And then my friends were like, you know, there's social media now, you can reach more people. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll experiment with it. And I found Tumblr. And I had many different blogs. And at first, I was just, okay, I guess I'll experiment with it. And I found Tumblr and I had many different blogs. And at first I was just sharing my visual art. I was a painter, I drew, and I wasn't sharing my poetry.

And when I began sharing my poetry, I mean, there were so many iterations of my different blogs and I was publishing a lot of my work first anonymously, but the sort of shorter, more concentrated poem that I want to hit like sort of like shots came when I found Tumblr because I was, I realized the difference between performance poetry and paper poetry at that point, because when I'm standing in front of an audience performing a six minute poem, I can see the way that poem comes to life and the way that it moves them.

They're laughing, they're crying. We're sort of like building up to a high frequency together. I take that same poem, I post it on Tumblr, and it's not felt in the same way at all. And then I started to experiment with poems that I felt like were coming alive on paper. And so those are the poems that most people know me for, the shorter, more concise pieces.

And then, yeah, then a few years later, I found Instagram when nobody was publishing anything with words on it, on Instagram. And I feel like I grew with the platform, you know? I was just wondering, there's probably a before and after, like before your mind is aware of the algorithm and how before your mind has the ability

to do that twisted thing of like, how's this gonna do? Cause I can only imagine like what it would be like for me if every one of my pages was independently judged by the up or down of the social media algorithm and how hard it would be to tune that out. Like to make something great that is a cohesive whole, you have to be removed from that. Yes.

But it's hard to turn off the like, how's this gonna do? People like this, is this the kind of thing that does well? Yeah. I've thought about, I remember when I went to write my second book, The Sun and Her Flowers, I sat at my desk and I was like,

at that point, Milk and Honey had sold like, millions of copies. It was on the bestsellers list every week for God knows how long. And the pressure was definitely there to repeat that type of success. And I went to write and I couldn't write a single word because I was like, wait a minute.

I don't even know how I did it the first time. I wasn't even aware of it. So what do I do? And I don't know know how I did it the first time. I wasn't even aware of it, so what do I do? And I don't know what the answer is, but the answer for me, it's always been writing poetry is such a spiritual and personal experience. The magic, I think, comes from me being honest about where I am.

And I wrote to find answers to the questions that I was having. And so that's kind of what I tried to do. I mean, for a long time, I didn't publish my poems about depression and anxiety until the third book, because I was like, well, my audience really likes the pieces of healing and heartbreak.

So like, maybe this is gonna be weird. And then they're gonna be like, you have all this success, why are you depressed? And then, you know, I ended up just going for it during the pandemic and it landed and it be like, you have all this success, why are you depressed? And then, you know, and I ended up just going for it during the pandemic and it landed. And it was like, okay. And I think these little small wins,

these little reps that I'm doing, and then they're received by people, it does help. And I think over time, and I'm sure you feel the same, and I want to hear about that, eventually you just stop caring too. You're just like, all I can do is what I can do and write what I can do and write what I know. And I am so grateful to have been received for this long and I hope that continues,

but I have to honor myself first. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history, presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger along with six other astronauts.

But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. It's also there's something about like, you've done it. And so you know you've done it,

and then you can kind of weirdly be a little bit more indifferent to results. You know, like I imagine it's like, if you haven't won a championship, it's hard to be like, I just love playing. You know, it's easier to say that once you've done the, like once you've scaled whatever the objective heights of your given profession are.

Like you're a scientist, you win a Nobel Prize. And then you're like, I just like seeing where the science takes me. That's harder to do if you don't have, like confidence is easier when you've like objectively earned it. Yeah. You know, like we've done the thing

and you can point to that thing. That's true, yeah. For you was writing the following books, like after the first, how was that experience for you? Did it get harder? Has it gotten easier? How are you reflecting on that 10 years? Well, I got lucky.

So my first book was about marketing, so it was sort of totally different. And then I wrote this book about Stoke philosophy that I didn't think would do big things and my publisher didn't think would do big things. And when it came out, really didn't do big things. Like I think it sold like a few thousand copies its first week, but I'd already sold the second book.

So I was just busy doing that. And so the fact that it wasn't disappointing, but it just, it wasn't, it didn't exceed or it didn't like register really at all. But I was busy writing this second book and it was sort of kicking my ass as all projects do. And then by the time the obstacles away really did start to take off,

I was like towards the end of that second book and still getting my ass kicked. So I feel like it shielded me from the downside and the upside. And then what it did was I was really established like in my writing process and my writing style, independent of the success. Whereas I know a lot of people like James Clear,

Mark Manson, who like their first book sold like what my first three or four books sold combined. You know, and that would be really destabilizing and disorienting. sold like what my first three or four books sold combined. And that would be really destabilizing and disorienting. And I imagine for you, very similar. Your first book comes out, it's self-published and then it does more than anyone could have imagined,

even had it been like a huge expected hit. Like it was a monster, your book. And so, yeah, following that up would create a whole bunch of pressure and expectations. Like 23. Yeah, I didn't thankfully really have to deal with any of that. I dealt with it in different ways

in different parts of my life. But as far as the books go, I had the luxury of like a slow steady build, which it's funny when you put something out, whether it's on social media or a book, everyone wants it to be a monster success out of the gate. But it's funny when you talk to people who that happened to, they tend to see it as kind of a,

like they talk about how hard it was. Obviously they're grateful for it, but you think you want things to go a certain way, but you actually don't. You have no idea the difficulties and the challenges it will bring. I was so naive, so clueless. Cause I mean, I thought a few hundred people were going to buy the book.

And I had already brought my, I was still in college. I had already bought my LSAT prep books. And I was like, hey, now I need to make real money when I get out of the school. I need to pay my student debt. Obviously, you can't be a poet. That's not a job. Yeah. And I was performing for years, always for free. Because I was like, I just love doing this. I'll do it for like nothing. But yeah, it's really interesting what you said about being able to develop your process

through book two as well. I feel like only now am I less destabilized and developing a process that I'm like, okay, I can lean into this and it's working. Yeah. yeah, like you didn't get to be a regular person or a regular developing writer. You went from no one to unrealistic expectations. You just didn't get any kind of safety net or safe space to develop as in obscurity. I mean, again, like if you had to choose between that and it not happening, you would of course choose your thing,

but it's a lot, Yeah, it's a lot. It is a lot, it is a lot. And I'm just so grateful that I got through it because there were lots of years where I was like, this is the biggest mistake I've ever made. Really? Like I, how do I put this into words? It just sort of knocked me off my center,

pulled the ground beneath my feet. And it felt like I got on a train with self-publishing and I was excited to get off a few stops later. The train not only did it not stop, it kept going faster and faster and faster. And it brings with it its own sort of challenges. And I was very tough on myself through it. I was like, oh my God, I've dealt with this horribly.

I'm failing, I'm doing this, I'm doing all the things wrong, even though from the outside it's looking great and fantastic, but now I'm like, okay, it's fine. Like I had to go through the hard bits of it and now the confidence is finally here. The stillness and the calm is finally here. And I know that it might not remain forever,

but what I know now that I didn't know then is I can get through the hard moments and they won't like win. Yeah, Tennessee Williams calls it the catastrophe of success, which I think is a beautiful phrase. And again, for people who are listening and this sounds like, well, you should be so lucky. Of course, at the same time, a lot of people don't survive it.

You know, this is why we have things like the 27 Club and why so few people have a second, like a follow-up success. Like a lot of people, first off, it's just hard to do it once. It's hard to do it twice. It's really hard to do it twice after you've done it once because yeah, you have all these expectations,

you have all these distractions, you can get complacent. You know, there's just all, you can feel like you're not worthy of it. There's just all this stuff that can kind of creep in that makes it hard for you to just sit down and do the thing from like a pure, authentic, like loving place. Absolutely. Exactly. I relate to that. And what I try to remember, what keeps me grounded

during the hardest moment, ironically has been my readers. And even going, I'm on the 10 year anniversary tour right now. And I feel really grateful cause I'm meeting them each night. And there's so much love and they're like, don't worry, you don't need to rush the next one. Go off, like take a year off, do this. And I'm like, okay. Cause here, you know, I've also told myself the narrative

that people are just taking and taking and taking and taking and now I'm up close. They have all these expectations and actually they're like, they want you to take better care of yourself. Yeah, exactly. So that's been a nice reminder. Yeah, yeah.

Also, yeah, you meet someone and you feel like, it's a surreal thing. I'm sure you've had this where someone tells you this like story about the completely outsized impact your work has had on them in a way that obviously has very little to do with you and everything to do with them. But you're just like,

if that's the only positive thing that my work has, so if my work had sold one copy, but it sold it to this one person who was going through cancer, or I've heard from people, they're like, I used your book, I was in this cult, and now I'm not in the cult. And you're just like, what, like that,

if you had said at the outset to me, or as I was conceiving the idea, like, hey, you're gonna write this book and it's gonna help this person, you know, like it's gonna save their life, or it's gonna save their marriage, or it's gonna pull them out of this horrendous situation, you'd be like, oh, that, I guess that's success.

That would be worth all these hours. And you obviously have that times a lot of things. But then it's easy to kind of abstract all that into the numbers of like total copies or the size of an advance or followers or whatever. Really, like just any of those things would be make it plenty worthwhile. That's exactly what I try to remember. I was in Brazil in 2023 when I was on my world tour and I was about to recite my final piece, but before that I was sort of sharing some sort of like details about the challenges I've had, kind of like what we're talking about. And this woman shouts out, she's like, can I tell you a story? And my audience is always like talking back at me,

which I love. There's so much fun banter. But then when somebody says, can I tell you a story? I get a little nervous because I'm like, where is this going to go? If I hand you the mic. Yeah. There's all these people in the audience. This could be a disaster. And I hand the mic 99% of the time.

So I was like, sure. And then she goes on to tell me the story about how, um, so my Brazilian publisher. me the story about how. So my Brazilian publisher ended up knocking at her door after my book became a bestseller in Brazil because they were knocking at her door because they were looking for women of color writers writing about the themes I was writing about. And they wanted to bring that to like a wider audience in Brazil. And so they ended up finding her. They published her work and then she became a national bestselling author and poet. And she was like, I couldn't have done that if it wasn't for Milk and Honey. And then all of these women in the audience started lifting their books and going me too, me too, me

too, me too. And in that moment, as I am sharing about these challenges and difficulties, I was like, okay, fine. You know what? All the challenges and the pain that I've like felt privately, they're worth it if this is the outcome, if it's like allowed people to write and share and express. I'm trying to find the actual milk and honey poem in here. Obviously, I knew the book and I'd read a bunch of the poems, but like sometimes, you know, there's things,

we're like, oh, that's where the title comes from. I guess I'd never actually seen the Milk and Honey poem, but it's just for people who haven't heard it. Of course I want to be successful, but I don't crave success for me. I need to be successful to gain enough Milk and Honey to help those around me succeed. So that woman was basically telling you

the back made real the whole underlying idea of the thing you had done. That must have been kind of a magical experience. It was very magical. It's very magical. And it just is like goes to show how connected we can be and how putting yourself out there, it could change the life of a person.

And like you said, it's not me, I didn't change that life. It took them sort of stepping into their own light. The way that we're connected is like really cool and it's very powerful. Yeah, I try to tell people, I think that's helpful for people to hear when they, when they tell you all the things that your book did for them, I try to remind them. I was like, you did it.

Yes. Like, like it was just sitting there. First off, you read it. But second, like the words don't mean anything unless you do something with them. Like you did the work. Exactly. You know? Absolutely. I try to remind them of the same thing,

because I'm like, I'm not out here trying to save anybody's life. So if you saved your own, you should know that you did that. Yeah, you can't save someone's life with a poem. Exactly. Do you know what I mean? Like they have to take it and believe it or use it.

I had a super weird experience in Brazil like a month ago, the same thing. So what happened is when I was 20 years old, I bought Mark Shreeles' meditations. This specific translation came to me on Amazon and I read it and I remember just like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever read. I was like, everyone should know about this, right?

That was what I thought. And so I was just in Brazil, I was doing a talk and I'm walking through the airport and I see out of the corner of my eye, a copy of Mark Shrevely's Meditations in an airport bookstore in Belo Horizonte, I think. And so first off, that's 20 years ago when I read Marx's Realist. And even today, it's not a book you see in airports very often.

There's not like obscure schools of ancient philosophy do not get a lot of airport bookstore real estate, let alone in Brazil. Right. And and so I walk over and I look at it because it's the translation that I loved. And I think I have it in my, I don't have it here. I guess I have it in my office, but it's this translation. But it's in Portuguese. But then at the top is a quote from me. Like it's my endorsement of the book, which I did not know anyone had taken and put on the.

And so I'm just like, oh, wow, this is incredible. And I was like, oh, I did it. I read this book and it meant something to me and I wanted people to see it. And then you flash forward almost two decades and I'm bumping into that thing that got unleashed in the world. And you're just like, oh.

What a magical moment. It was crazy. Wow, that is a magical moment. Did you buy the copy? I did. So it was actually funny. But it was like 10 of them wrapped together. And so I went to the woman.

I was like, can I buy one of these? And she's like, what? You know, she goes, I don't speak Portuguese. And she tries to ring me up for like 10 of them. And I'm trying to explain. And then finally, someone who spoke English in Lungat got out and explained it. And I was like, no, I'm buying it,

cause that's me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I just wanted to call this random stranger. Like that's me. But yeah, it's crazy when you, like you have this idea to do this thing and there's something insane about it. And then you do it.

Like I got to imagine yourself publishing a book about poetry in 2014. What is success to you look like? A hundred copies, 500 copies? What do you think? I wasn't even thinking about a number because it was so, I mean, my professor who had initially asked her for advice and I was like, I'm trying to get published,

what should I do? And I mean, she just told me what she knew. She was just like, well, you're not gonna get published. Nobody publishes poetry, like find another genre. Or you could submit to poetry journals and anthologies, which I tried to do, but I felt like I was like cheating on my work. Cause I thought that it's meant to be experienced

as a body of work. And I just did it because the feeling for me, feeling, I think it comes from performing, is when I'm performing, I'm so connected to my audience. And it's such a magical feeling that that's why I wanted to put the book out. It was like being connected in a different way. We were having conversations about these topics,

whether it was violence, sexual abuse, healing, trauma, love. We're having these conversations online and I'm such a lover of books. Like it's a totally romantic idea. Just it existing was success. And so I was like, okay, great, I'll put it out. You know, I had like less than 10,000 followers on Instagram at the time.

And then, yeah, I put it out and everything that happened after that was a surprise. And even when my publisher came knocking in 2015, about like eight months later. And also what I think what helped is I had no clue what the standard was. I had sold about 18,000 copies of the self-published edition, which to me was nothing because the only concept I've had of like numbers was music sales. So I'm like, oh, so and so is like triple platinum silver,

that's like a million trillion copies, like I'm so far away from that. And so when they came knocking, I eventually signed over with them. And then when that edition came out exactly like a year later, I was still in school. That book came out exactly like a year later, I was still in school. That book came out, I graduated that month,

like so much happened that month. And then I went off social media, I went off to India. There was like no press, no marketing. That's how much I didn't expect anything to happen. And then I come back and it was insane because it was just word of mouth, people passing the book on to each other. Yeah, I try to tell people that it's like a gold album

is 500,000 copies in music. I would say like a gold book is like 50. It's like 10 times lower. Yeah. Do you know what I'm like? I think books punch above their weight culturally, but it's a relatively small. So anytime you hear about something

selling a million copies, it's enormous. It's, you know what I mean? Like it just doesn't happen. It's hard to sell books. Yes, exactly. A lot of my friends, like I'm not gonna name names, but they, you know, they're like, one of them is like an incredible accessories

and shoe designer. She sells shoes that are like $800 a pop. And she wrote a book and she comes to me and anytime my friends publish books, I really have to like bring their expectations from here to here. And then she comes to me and she's like, girl, selling books, I don't know how you do it.

She's like, it's the hardest thing I've ever done. It's easier for me to sell $800 shoes. Of course. Yeah, it's tough. Well, you can just put on an $800 pair of shoes. Like a book is worth, like not only is it, first off, music is free to download or to stream. So like, that's a huge part of why they do

these huge numbers, but also it's like, it's not asking anything of you. A book, even a book of poetry is asking someone to sit down and not do anything else and spend hours with this thing. And that's like a lot and it's expensive. So it's kind of a crazy set. Like of all the artistic mediums,

it might be like the hardest sell. Maybe other than like physical sculpture, because it's like, what am I supposed to do with this? And you know what I mean? Thank you for putting that into perspective actually. Yeah. You pay for it upfront, and actually. It's a lot. Yeah. You pay for it upfront, and it takes hours of the person's time.

Yes. And in some cases it's challenging them. Like music is like, let me make you feel good. Or music's not like, let me confuse you. Or let me challenge your deepest hell of a subject. Or let me trigger you. Yeah, exactly. So it's a tough sell, I think.

Absolutely. But I mean, I think you and I would, I mean, I'd keep doing it again and again and again. You don't have a choice. You don't get to choose the medium that you're called to. Exactly. Although it's funny though, because I think you're so big at this point,

I think there are some people, and this is a sign I think that someone's done something well, where it looks easy. So I imagine some people think that first off, it's poem, it's not that many words. Not that many words. And yeah, like this sort of like anyone can do it. Yeah. But if anyone could do it, a lot more people would do it.

And the average poetry book wouldn't sell, you know, 16 copies. Yeah, it's funny because I use very simple diction and that's very purposeful because I don't, I mean, there's so many different types of poetry and they're all great, but for me, I started writing poetry. I mean, I wasn't even aware that it was poetry. I was just trying to do the emotional work.

And for me, that required the simplest sort of diction because I wanted, I didn't want to have to decipher what the poem was saying. I wanted to read it and it hit me quick and fast so that I could sit there with it and do the emotional labor and do the emotional work of figuring out, okay, what does this experience mean and how do I process it?

So those smaller pieces that are even like four lines are so much harder to write than the ones that are four pages. Like what I'm working on a book of prose, and it's like, I'm so excited about that because I'm like, oh my God, thank God. It's so much easier. Interesting. Because there's more space for me to like,

dive into many different directions. But the books with the shorter pieces, it's that, so much of it I have to leave up to the universe to sort of like work through and deliver through me. I find that much more challenging. -♪ MUSIC PLAYINGim There was this early stoic named Cleanthes and he was saying that poetry like life, the constricting nature of it is what creates the opportunities. So like he says like the fetters of the poetry pushing air through a flute, that's what creates

the music. If you could do whatever you wanted, and your poetry is not super rule-based, I would say, but if you had unlimited space, it wouldn't have the same effect. It's the constraining nature, the obstacles, like we experience in life, that create the music of the poetry. Like a haiku is the ultimate example.

Yes, exactly. Like you can only do this, this and this. And it makes you get weird with it. Like it makes you get creative in ways that you wouldn't if you had a choice do. And that's like writing a poem is like putting together a puzzle. And so yeah, like we all have our own sort of rules, even I have them.

And that's what makes creating the puzzle really fun. Yes. Yeah. And meaningful. Yes. Because if it was just blah. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I mean, and there is a freedom in the prose I'm writing because I'm like, okay, I can just relax and just go whatever direction I wanna go in.

But then bouncing back and forth between the two is also nice. But then yeah, when you go back and edit it though, the constraints come back in. You're like, this is boring. This is taking too long. I gotta tighten this. I've said this before.

I think people think writing is the stream of consciousness. That's like the, you know, you hear about Jack Kerouac writing on the road in some like 36 hour, you know, bender or something. I don't think any great literature has ever actually been done stream of consciousness. That might be how you get some of it down. Yeah. But it's in the rewriting and the editing.

I imagine even a four line poem for you. Oh my God. It didn't take 30 seconds. No, I'm like writing hundreds of drafts. I save each edit and each version I save. I love editing like that because I'll like write the piece and then usually I write it in my journal. And if I feel like, and then after days of writing, I'll like look through and I'm like, oh, this one works. This one's cool. I'll circle the ones that I like, whatever I get for my free writing session.

I translate that over to like a document. And then when I begin the editing process, it's like, I edit it and then I copy paste below. I edit that copy paste below because then I can see the different versions and the evolutions of it because sometimes you do over edit. And then you're like, oh my god, the version four versions ago was so much better. Let me go back. And so it's, you know, each book is thousands of pages long.

Like when you look at all the versions of the pieces, but it's so, it's really beautiful. That's the funnest part for me, right? Like. Have you heard that Mark Twain thing about the difference between the right word and the almost right word? No. He says it's the difference between lightning

and lightning bug. Ah, no, I haven't heard that one. Like there is some, it's like, you'd think it's like, okay, I got the sentence down. Yeah. But it's actually like 14 versions of the sentence later that you get it exactly in the right order. And you're just like, fuck, that's it.

And then it hits you and makes your stomach turn and it's such a good feeling. Yes, I think that's what keeps a writer going is that. Exactly. A couple times that happens. What are the rules? Like some of my rules when I'm writing, I explore those in my fourth book, Healing Through Words,

with the shorter pieces specifically. Each poem, I try to have one thesis statement, and every word and every line has to do the heavy lifting of trying to prove that thesis of the poem correct. That's my sort of rules. Do you have rules when you're writing or constraints? I don't, I think most of my constraints are more like, you have only a certain amount of space to do this.

Like this is what the format, the style of the book, like of the, like right now I'm on this four book series. So it's, you know, this is the style. So it has to fit in here and you only have so much space. I heard this thing about Raymond Chandler once where he would write on these in his typewriter, because this is when he was writing, he would write on these small pieces of paper.

And his rule was that like something had to happen on each page. So, if you're just writing, like a Word doc is not a page in a book, it might be three pages in a book. So you can kind of be, you feel like you have more time and space than you actually do.

So I break each of my books up into, let's say it's 30 chapters, it's 30 documents. It's not until the very end that it all comes together and then I edit it as a whole. So by breaking up in these smaller pieces, that thing has to really sing. Not exactly the same as a poem, but it's like I'm doing these individual little arguments.

And then that argument contributes to the overall thesis. And then later when you're editing it, you have sort of tags or it comes together as this cohesive piece. But I think the big rule for me is that it has to work as this independent chunk. And if it doesn't, then it's not what it can be. I think that's a big one. Yeah, I love that idea. And I love that't, then it's not what it can be.

I think that's a big one. Yeah, I love that idea. And I love that, what you said about each page has to do something. That same with each poem. That's how I feel. I'm like, if you're gonna take up space in my book, you better work hard.

Yeah, I think that another rule, I was a research assistant for this writer named Robert Green, who wrote the 40 Laws of Power. And he was talking to me early on about like diversity in this stuff. And he wasn't arguing it from a political correctness standpoint, or even like a social justice standpoint.

He was just like, you wanna have a lot of readers and every reader should be able to see something of themselves in the book, right? And so it's like, if all your things are from 20th century American history, that's only gonna be relevant to some people. And so he was like, no, you've got to get something from everywhere.

So Chinese history and then business history and sports and music and like white and black and East and West. And so I think another rule that really helps me is, is the sort of forced, it's not quotas, because I don't think about it that way. I'll just get a sense of like, I'm talking too much about the same people

or the same kinds of people. So now I wanna go find someone or something that's like out of left field here. And that forces me to take on new characters that I work. And I ended up going down these whole rabbit holes and finding this whole other perspective. And I get really excited. I'm like, I didn't know anything about, you know,

this person or that person. And now emerging from the book, they're like one of my heroes. I love that. You get to like learn yourself and it stays exciting for you and continues to feed you. Cause the worst thing is when you're doing the work and it's no longer feeding you.

Yeah, you're just doing, like you said earlier, where you're just doing, if you're just doing the same thing over and over again, it's like very boring. And then ultimately boring for the audience too. Like you want, you want to be on fresh territory as often as possible. Exactly, exactly. I think it was like in my mid twenties,

I was really struggling with this idea of staying relevant. And I could not figure out how to move past that. And my therapist was like, you're relevant right now because you're interested in what you're writing about. The moment you stop and the moment you're just thinking about the audience, you're going to stop being relevant. So like, focus on that. And that was really freeing, because I was like, okay, that means I can, it gave me the permission to just serve myself. Because that is what she was saying,

was keeping the work alive and relevant and all of these things. Yeah, you know who Rick Rubin is? Yeah, he's talked about, he's like, as soon as a band is trying to like do what's relevant or like what's popular now, they're dating themselves. He's like, you should go to a museum and find yourself inspired by something

that's a thousand years old. You wanna find those more eternal, timeless sort of sources of inspiration. You wanna serve something that's fundamentally human as opposed to whatever people are talking about right now. By the time you write about it and by the time it comes out, you've probably already missed the way. Exactly, times change, yeah.

Was it weird? Because what's cool about this book, which I didn't think to do, I love that, is your book isn't just what it is. It's the people that read it and are influenced and connected to it. The idea of hearing what other people thought about the poems and what they meant to them,

that must've been really cool. Yes. Are you speaking about the other annotators? Yeah, all the annotators. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a cool idea. Yeah, I remember reaching the end of my own annotations and realizing as I was writing the introduction,

like Milk and Honey is not just my book anymore. I wrote it, cool. And it was mine when I wrote it. And then I like shared it with the world, but the way the world has received it, it belongs. It's not fully mine anymore. And so the 10 year anniversary edition, it wouldn't make sense to just have my voice in it.

And so then I started reaching out to friends and I remember the first time I met Malala. I didn't know that she'd read my work and she comes to me and she's like, I read all your works right before I got married. Your works, books were the ones that I was reading and I was so moved by that. So then I invited her to annotate and then also Camila Cabello and-

She shared one of my things on Instagram once. It was very cool. I listened to the episode with you and her, which was so great. She's so well-spoken and lovely. But it was really cool to just sort of give these women the book. These are like women who've arrived at my table

after publication. Then I also went to women who helped me build that table and who were there before that table was even built. Women who've been in my life forever and watched me do this. And it was interesting to see the pieces that they picked and how they reflected on it and how they included other women.

I love Malala's annotation referencing the girls in Afghanistan who don't, you know, are losing so many human rights. Isn't it crazy, or we were talking about like someone coming up to you and your works meant something to you. I don't know about you, but I sometimes get very self-conscious

because I'm like, I wrote this thing from my experience, which was a fraction of that person's experience. The idea that they were going through cancer or some horrendous thing where they were winning the Super Bowl, they're doing something. I'm like, you really took a chance putting weight, I'm not sure that this was a weight-bearing book. You know what I mean?

For someone like her, who's had this incredible life and is so incredibly brave to be like, oh no, no, this is true. This is good. That must have been, you're like, what? It's crazy. It's crazy. It's like nice sometimes too, cause I'm like, all I do is sit in my head

and beat myself up. So like, that's really nice. Thank you. Yeah. I'm just like, oh, you're making real life decisions based on what's in here. Like, okay. You never know how something's gonna land.

Like I don't have a single poem in, I think, any of my books. I think, I'm pretty sure, about battling cancer, any type of sickness. But the amount of people who've said to me on this book tour, this is, like, I was reading all your books again and again while I was fighting this disease and I was hospitalized for so long,

and I'm like, which part? Like, but it's like amazing, cause I mean, human emotions are clearly so universal that they land with people in unexpected ways. It's like, I was writing this because I was frustrated in traffic, and then you're taking it to, you know, it's like world changing cause that you're fighting for.

And like, I'm honored that it spoke to you, but like, I'm also just like, yeesh, like that, like, I'm glad it held up. Because like, it was built under flimsier circumstances than the stress test that you are subjecting it to. It's like, you know, yeah, like a mountain climbing equipment, it's like set up for different weights. And it's like, I only tested this a little bit.

And then you are taking your life in your hands. Yes, exactly. Like there's something surreal about that. It is. It's really surreal. It's wild. And I mean, yeah, the stories, I mean, you've heard the stories. People tell you their stories.

And I mean, and that's why I always tell, like so many people come up to me at book signings and they're like, I write, I'm scared, should I put my work out? Am I supposed to feel nervous? And I tell them, I'm like, as long as you feel safe, put it out. You've absolutely no idea who the hell is going to find your work and how it's going to transform them. So do it for you if it makes you feel alive. It's a wonderful feeling to feel connected with people, but you have no idea, like, the audiences are gonna find it and find comfort in it. Yeah, it's like, sometimes it's helpful, like, no one I knew went to, like, Ivy League schools,

no one growing up was, like, really successful. Then you meet some, like, really well-educated idiots, you know, or some, like, incredibly successful people that you're just like, oh, they did it. It's very helpful. Cause then you just, oh, it's like, nobody really knows what they're doing. You think there are these like adults out there

that are just perfect. And then you're like, oh yeah, there's something silly about imposter syndrome as if one, everyone's not feeling it. And there aren't some like actual imposters out there getting away with it. Who have Ivy League degrees. Oh, totally.

I mean, I'd sold millions of copies of Milk and Honey. It was like, you know, doing all of these wild things. And my number one obsession was trying to find a master's like program to go into so that I could be an official, more feel more official doing it because all of these other poets, they went to like, they did their MFA over here

and did that. And I was like, I need that to like call myself a writer. Yeah, there's a lot of interest in kind of mystifying things and making it seem more significant than it is and dramatic and glamorous than it is. And that because I don't don't know, but it has the effect of being very intimidating to people who are on the outside. And it's really not, you know, and people perpetuate it too. Like they go like, what kind of pen do you use? And it's like, this is the least important question.

Like none of this shit matters. Like none of us know what we're doing. Yeah, just do it. Yeah, exactly. And then when people are like behaving too much, like they know what they're doing, I'm now, none of us know what we're doing, just do it. Yeah, just do it, yeah, exactly. And then when people are behaving too much, they know what they're doing, I'm now a little suspect. I'm like, just chill. Yeah, it's not, I try to remind myself of this silliness

and the absurdity of it too. Exactly. It's not that important, it really doesn't matter that much in the big scheme of things, anyone can do it. And it just to kind of, cause if you build it up too much in your head and intimidate you, it also I think can make you self-important, right?

You're like, this isn't that special. Yes. There's no one right way to do it. So you could find your own way to do it. Like when my book hit number one on the New York Times list for the first time, I was like, oh, this is incredible. I was on a book tour, so I was mostly just busy. I was like, oh shit, I gotta go to the airport now.

But then the next week or a couple of weeks after, Donald Trump Jr. hit number one, and he hit number one, and then the story came out that one of their PACs had just bought all the copies. And you're just like, oh, the accomplishment that I was just like, I wanted, for a second, was gonna take as like, the, you know, the culmination of all my work or, you know, it's like the Nobel Prize was invented by

this guy who felt guilty for having invented dynamite. You're just like, none of these things are that impressive. In fact, most of them are like corrupt. I mean, I have a book so we just fill out, we send an email to New York Times this every week. And we're like, we sold this many copies. It's not like, it's first off, there are companies that will help you deceive that system. And many of the books that you think were super successful, it's just cause the deep pocketed person bought it or the company turning it into a movie paid for it

or whatever. And then also it's like, yeah, even if it did matter, like the Olympics where it was like, this, even if it did matter like the Olympics, where it was like, this is objectively the fastest person in the world, it's not who gives a shit, you know, it doesn't matter. You can't give it that much importance exactly, otherwise it traps you.

Yes. And it's not fun. And I mean, to me, the real test is like, is it still here in 10 years or 20 years or a hundred years? Not that, you know, creating something that outlives you is that meaningful too, but it's just like, why was success to you being the best for a very brief moment?

You should make something that has staying power. But then what is success? If it's not that, it's not being on the list and then is it staying power? Is it not that? Like, I often wonder then, and it's a question I'm answering. I don't know yet.

I mean, at this point in my life, and maybe the definition changes every few years, I'm like, if I can do that, that should give me the freedom to find joy in my life. And so if it hasn't done that yet, I'm doing something wrong. And so I'm on that journey of like running towards the joy rather than running towards the numbers.

Yeah, I mean, if you're not happy, how successful are you? Exactly. For sure. But I mean, I think your definition in the milk and honey poem, like I need to be successful to gain enough milk and honey to help those around me succeed. Like, did your thing facilitate success for other people?

Did it open doors for other people? Were you a good steward of what you had and did you use it to help other people realize their potential? I mean, that to me is a much more meaningful, I have a chapter in my justice book about coaching trees. Like Greg Popovich, do you know who that is? He's the head coach of the San Antonio Spurs.

He's one of the most winning coaches in the history of not just the NBA, but all sports. But I think it's much, he also has the greatest, what they would call a greatest coaching tree. So like his assistants have gone on to win the most games. And to, like he was one of the first basketball coaches to hire a female assistant coach. She was the first one because he stepped out in the game,

he let her coach. She was the first woman to coach an NBA game, right? So like for all of his success, what actually would you sort of step away from it? Cause their last championship, I think they won in like, 2015 or 16, something like that. So already it's already drift receding into the background, but what endures is like what the doors

that you've opened for other people. Absolutely. And that continues to be the most rewarding thing is to see how you can use your platforms or your power to bring other people on the ride with you because it's not fun to be on the ride alone. It's only fun when you're there with other people. I'm sure many people have gotten poetry book deals

that you were not offered when you were writing your first book. But as a result of the success of that, like there's something about not creating a genre, because obviously poetry is very, but there's something about creating a resurgence of a genre or being popular in a genre that floats all the boats. Absolutely. It's been amazing to watch how this genre went from being at the back of

bookstores, just closer to the front. And sometimes like right at the front when I walk in, that's been really cool, really interesting. And I just did, on this book tour, we've been doing a lot of community events as well to give access to lots of different people. And one of my favorites was an open mic night we did in the Lower East Side with my friends at Cotton, they're like a sustainable ethical clothing brand out of Toronto, and I wanted to do that open mic because the moment that changed my life was the first open mic I did in 2009. There were 20 people in the audience.

I had a really bad, cringey poem. Didn't matter. I went up, I performed it, and the people in the audience didn't laugh. They surrounded me afterwards, and they were like, just in awe. I mean, they were eight to 10 years older than me, and they see me as like, you know,

I'm like this little teenager. I'm like shaking, my knees are trembling. And I'm like, you know, reciting in these, surrounding me afterwards. And they were like, you did such a great job. Like, wow, we need you to come back. And that's what the poetry community is and does. It just uplifts you.

And on my world tour, I had opening acts from different cities come and perform. And then two weeks ago at this open mic that we held in Lower East Side, I had people sort of submit poems. I picked a few and these nine poets, watching them on stage and just sitting in the audience and cheering them on filled my heart more than a list ever could.

It was so beautiful. You can't pay those people back, but you can pay it forward. Exactly. That's beautiful. Exactly. Well, congrats. Thank you. You wanna go look at some books in the books real fast?

Yes, let's do it. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

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