The Daily Stoic - Ryan and Comic Pete Holmes Talk Work-Life Balance and Why Joy Matters

Episode Date: July 25, 2020

On today’s Daily Stoic Podcast, Ryan talks with comedian and writer Pete Holmes about understanding your own brain, finding personal fulfillment when things are out of your control, and more.Pete Holmes has spent years as a touring comedian as well as a TV writer and actor. He was the creator and star of HBO’s Crashing and has appeared in a number of stand-up specials. Holmes has released four comedy albums as well as a book, Comedy Sex God. Holmes also hosts a podcast, You Made It Weird with Pete Holmes.This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs is the best platform for finding the right candidate to join your business. And right now, LinkedIn is helping companies like yours find the essential workers that they need in these trying times. Visit http://linkedin.com/stoic to post your healthcare or essential job for free, or to post another job for your business.This episode is also brought to you by GoMacro. GoMacro is a family-owned maker of some of the finest protein bars around. They're vegan, non-GMO, and they come in a bunch of delicious flavors. Visit http://gomacro.com and use promo code STOIC for 30% off your order plus free shipping.This episode is also brought to you by Felix Gray, maker of amazing blue light-filtering glasses. Felix Gray glasses help prevent the symptoms of too much blue light exposure, which can include blurry vision, dry eyes, sleeplessness, and more. Get your glasses today at http://felixgrayglasses.com/stoic and try them for 30 days, risk-free.***If you enjoyed this week’s podcast, we’d love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps with our visibility, and the more people listen to the podcast, the more we can invest into it and make it even better.Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: http://DailyStoic.com/signupFollow @DailyStoic:Twitter: https://twitter.com/dailystoicInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoic/Facebook: http://facebook.com/dailystoicYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dailystoicFollow Pete Holmes: Homepage: https://peteholmes.com/Twitter: https://twitter.com/peteholmesInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/peteholmes/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/peteholmesshow/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/peteholmesSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoic, something that can help you live up to those four that can help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, wisdom, and temperance. And here, on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we reflect, we prepare. We think deeply about the challenging issues of our time. And we work through this philosophy

in a way that's more possible here when we're not rushing to worker to get the kids to school. When we have the time to think to go for a walk to sit with our journals and to prepare for what the future will bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wundery's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily's Joke Podcast. I'm really excited about today's guest, he's someone who I have had many, many long conversations with, but whose art and comedy I've been a fan of for a very long time. Talking about Pete Holmes,

a stand-up comedian, who may have seen a show in HBO, crashing, which ran for three seasons, I thought was hilarious. I did his podcast, maybe a year and a half ago, two years ago, we talked for three hours, felt like we really connected, and then we sort of stayed in touch. I did it again when stillness came out,

we talked for another three hours, and in between there, he put out a book which I really liked called Comedy Sex God. It's supposed to be funny, that sort of pizza sense of humor. I actually remember when I went to pizza I was for the first time. I walked in and he had this dog and I was petting the dog and I said,

what's your dog's name? And he just said, we don't know. And then he walked out of the room. And it was very clear later as I heard him do it to someone else. This is a running gag that he has. But I thought it was sort of very typical of Pete's humor. His show is hilarious. his standup is great. I really like his podcast.

They're these sort of deeply in depth interviews. It's usually 90 minutes in, or sometimes two hours in, that he starts to talk about God. So Pete's is kind of interesting, sort of spiritual seeker. He grew up very Christian, went to a Christian college, got married early, then his life sort of blew apart when his wife cheated on him, and sort of, I don't want to say fell away from his faith, but began to open his eyes and explore other things.

So he explored Eastern philosophy with Ramdas. He's read all sorts of Christian and mystic texts, and then I feel like I was probably involved with introducing him to Stoicism, which he's now talked about on the podcast the number of times, and he and I have gone back and forth. If you remember the email we did several months ago about the sort of similarities between some of the themes

in Marcus Relius and Ecclesiastes and the Bible, we were asking, was there any way that Marcus could have come across this? So he and I have sort of gone back and forth, I rely on his insights and expertise about Christianity and he sometimes asked me questions about stoicism. So I've been trying to get them on the podcast for a long time, actually, we started,

we wanted to do an email interview for Daily Stoke about the new book. We ended up writing a really good email about the book, if you remember, it was about how easy it is to get in sort of a pattern of depression or loneliness, or almost something you come to wear almost as a coat or a piece of clothing. It just sort of becomes part of you.

And we talked a little bit about that in the episode. He and I have bonded over our sort of very similar parents who are sweet kind people who did a great job raising two children into adulthood, but have a lot of flaws and issues and things that have caused pain and turmoil and confusion. And you know, I think are both independently working through those issues. So we talk about that in the episode. One of my favorite quotes from Pete, it's something I kind of try to think about often. He got this from Rom Doss, but it says, you

think you're enlightened and go spend a week with your family. So Pete and I have commiserated over the years about our parents, about issues we have, we're both parents of young kids ourselves. So it's about, you know, this isn't just sort of myopia. How do we sort of not just ruminating on our own pain and trauma from growing up, but which the stokes would say is done and in the past and something you really can't do anything about. But the reason you have to do this work, you have to think about these things, you have to try to get past it, is that you become a father or a mother yourself and you don't want to carry that trauma forward.

The Buddhist call this samsara, this sort of cycle of suffering that goes from one generation to the next, and that's something I don't want to pass on to my children, or at least, not, at least I would be quite embarrassed if I passed on the same issues that I experienced in my own childhood. I have no illusions that any parent can be perfect, but what we can be doing, as Epictita said, is striving to be better, to do better, to not be stuck in that cycle, to at least be making progress towards something better for their sake. So I'm really excited about this interview with Pete.

It's a little longer than our normal interviews, but that's Pete's style. And I love him. I think he's awesome. Please check out his work. Check out his book, Comedy Sex God. You can check out his podcast. You made it weird with Pete Holmes. You want two episodes to start with.

There's like almost six hours of me out there on him, but he's got a number of great interviews. I really like his interview with Gary Schandling. I think it's really good. Pete's interview with Melania is quite good. I loved his interview with BJ Novak recently. It's one of the few podcasts that I listened to. So check that out.

You can check out his show, C show crashing, which was on HBO. And he's got a number of really awesome comedy specials out there too. Oh, and I forgot to say one of the funny things about Pete's show is he just kind of starts recording. You hear the guest sort of walking in, getting down, sitting down. They ask if it started.

He just sort of goes right into the show. It was not intentional, but that ended up being how our interview started. We recorded it remotely separately, but he just was off to the races before I could even hit record. So I hit record halfway through a sentence from him. So it's only strange things that I wouldn't say on the record, you know, is like, I'm like, oh, I'm okay without stand up. Like, I thought I needed it, and I sure do love it. But, um, and, you know, I'm going to keep doing it, but like I'm so much more okay without it than I thought. Yeah, totally.

It's obviously a very privileged position to be in tune, but I was just talking to my wife about this. I was like, okay, so let's say our income's exact 50% hit will still be fortunate compared to most people. We need to figure out out who we have to hire and what decisions we have to make so that actually this is what our normal Monday looks like. No real meetings, I don't think go anywhere.

Like groceries are being delivered. I just feel like I'm just doing a lot less. I'm actually working the same amount. I'm just doing a lot less crap. I didn't was reluctant to pay to do before. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. You mean like having your groceries delivered here or just like like if someone had offered me $20 to drive a cross-town, I would have been like, Oh, I need, I'll take 20 bucks. Do you know what I have trouble with? I'm trouble like not. It's really funny. I, I, I guess I have like a competitive part of me.

It's hard for me to say because when I'm being conscious, which I'm being right now, you know, just being mindful or thoughtful, I don't feel competitive. But if you like left me like in like an animal, like my base emotions, there's something competitive in there. Does that make any sense? Sure, sure.

There's something going on that I'm not in control of and it is competitive. So when I've taken breaks from stand up in the past, I've enjoyed them. I've always been very proud of the fact that I'm not a lunatic that I can take two weeks off or two and a half three whatever I don't know how long I had gone and not been like Jonesing and talking about it and freaking out like on vacations or whatever or just like taking a break

about it and freaking out, like on vacations or whatever or just like taking a break. But there was always a part of me that was like a little worried that other people I know were out there getting better. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm sure. Doing, it's not even like that I don't want them to succeed. That doesn't bother me. It's just there's like an athletic like, well, they're out there running drills and they're improving and they're being disciplined. And that would sort of hurt me. So the thing that I've liked about this is that it's not that I'm taking a break. It's that we're all taking a break. I asked a friend of mine, like, who's in, like, he's a, he's in professional sports. And I said, like, if there was some union

that like mandated that the coaches could only work a certain number of hours, you know, in the way that like, you know, there's set rules on a movie set or a TV set or or, yeah, yeah, I was like, would the, would the quality of play diminish at all? And he was like, absolutely, no, I would do the extent none of the viewers would notice a single difference in the on field product. And, and so yeah, it's really hard when you actually like what you do, how do you regulate what's an appropriate amount of doing it or not. But that's, that's, that's a huge thing that really stuck with me. I've only heard Ram Das say at once, maybe twice, but he says like a really interesting question is,

does meeting your needs, and when we're talking about needs, we don't mean food, heat, shelter. We're talking about the things you think you need. So for me, it would be like doing stand-up three times a week or whatever. And he's like, the question is, does meeting your needs make you any happier

than not meeting your needs? And when he said that, I was like, oh, wow. And we're really seeing in this time, it's just really calling forth the capitalistic mindset. It's really coming into challenge and question. And I think we're all sort of uncovering, or at least I am, how capitalist I've become. And now that we're not being capitalist, we can't really be capitalist other than, you know, you're still buying stuff, but we're not producing, not in the same way, and yet we still exist. And yet I still have joy, and I still have value,

and I still have meaning. And I'm not like doing all the things that I thought I had to do to create joy, value, and meaning. And that's been really interesting for me. So I'm like, what do I take from this? Again, if we use this, I always want to be careful to say that I first and foremost

and worried about people's safety and their sanity. And I know that there are people in small apartments that this is no cakewalk. I know that there are people that are sick. I know that they're health care workers, that this is just a full-stop nightmare for. And I know that there are people that deal with stress, anxiety, depression, addiction that this is really hard for. So with acknowledgement to that, my experience is very unique. I have a baby, I have a wife, we have some space, and I'm also able to write. I know you can too, Ryan, and that gives me enough of a tinkering project satisfaction.

I just didn't know that that could really fill up my life all the way. Now, totally. But the other thing that I think about, so I sort of go back and forth, I totally agree. And then I go, okay, yes, I'm privileged. I have savings, I have space, I have a lot of space. I could, we can go in our swimming pool,

we can walk without leading our property. There's all sorts of things we can do. And then I go, isn't it nice that I'm not having to travel, I'm not having to work that much? And then I think, but how much of that is a result of the fact that I worked really, really hard the last couple of years and said yes to everything. And so now, you know, like the difference between the, what is it, the cricket and the

aunt, the, the fable, it's like sort of had prepared for winter. I'm curious like to, to get down to the specifics, like as a, as a person in the entertainment business, like one of the reasons you're probably able to take a break from comedy is that you built a podcast for many, many years, which is a sort of independent income stream, and you don't have to, you know, to or constantly the way that another comedian would. So do you think about having kind of prepared, diversified or prepared yourself as also being an advantage? to fight or prepare yourself as also being an advantage? Well, it's funny. I think one of the tropes that we see in movies, and even in video games, it was in Red Dead Redemption

where the outlaws are talking about one last job, and then they're gonna go to, I think they're gonna go to Tahiti. And that's so common in movies, and we know they're not gonna do it, and we know they're gonna die before it happens or whatever it is. And that is a real, that the reason we like that story is that's the lie that the ego is always telling us not to get too deep or anything, but it's true. That's what your brain, another way of saying, your personality is always sort

of negotiating with this deeper part of you. It's so absurd. Sometimes I think about that. I'm like, why are there factions in my brain? Like, why? Why does my brain make requests? Like it'll request water. It will demand diarrhea. And then like sometimes it'll like insist on comfort or self soothing or whatever it is. And I'm like, who's negotiating with who? Like, who is the command center that hears the thought you should have some water and you say,

I don't wanna drink water before bed. I don't wanna have to get up and pee. And so who are you negotiating with? It's just such a strange thing that's so ordinary that none of us are talking about. It's one of those things where I'm like, that is so fascinating. And yet it's so boring to most people.

So what I'm saying is there's a part of me that goes, I'm constantly laughing at myself because I go, okay, I'll do one more big TV project. And then I'll have the little that's good. Yeah, then I'll be good. And and there is a practical there is a side in its defense. I want to be like, what we're talking about that is the cricket, if that's the one that saves for winter, there is something about one more big

project, certainly making things easier to settle down or to stop working as much. So there's some logic to it, but that's what makes it sort of dangerous. It's really tempting to constantly get lost in those fantasies of like three more months and then I'll retire. But this is a forced thing. So you and I have both been living as if we were planning on retiring. Yeah, sure.

And then it was forced on us. Yeah, very much. So I mean, that you really hit it on the head. That's what happened. Is two guys, you and I bonded over the fact that like, I'm not a sneaker guy. I'm not a car guy. I'm not a wine guy.

I'm not an art guy. I don't even know what the other things are. But I'm not any of those guys either. I like hanging out with my wife. I like hanging out with my baby. I like the thrill that I get from creativity, from writing and producing. I enjoy that, but that can be done on my own.

I'm finding more and more. So the money goes into savings. You said that on my podcast, you're just like, I don't know what it is, I just want that number to go up. Well, that's the capitalistic myth. It's like a corporation is a failure. If it doesn't do better than it did the year before. There's no idea of it doing as well as it did the year before.

That's called plateauing and it's negative and it freaks out shareholders from what I understand of business. We're seeing that there is a plateau and it's okay and it's not only okay, it's beautiful and you can actually start spending that money. Sometimes like, it sounds like I'm saying, oh my wife, sure is good at spending my money. That is not what I'm saying at all. She has taught me how to go like, what is the point of having this imaginary number? It's an imaginary number. If you're not going to occasionally going to go whatever, on a vacation, let's just say that, to go on a vacation. So this

is what's happening is the Revers Meeting the Road, the imaginary number becomes actually a useful parachute and we can tinker and play with our not just the quality of our life, but the style of our life. No, I totally agree. And the wife thing is interesting because it's like for you, like what is held me back in the past financially is like, I know what I had to do to get the money. I know how rare it is to get paid to write things, to just like pull thoughts out of your head and not just have people pay you a lot of money, but I remember how many years I had to work for free before anyone gave me a dollar. Right.

So it's like, you know that your profession isn't inherently insane and economically irrational. So like that can make you very precious about the money. And I had two breakthroughs. One, yeah, my wife's like, no, we have the money. Let's spend it to her. It's just, you know, it's the same as if I made it in the stock market or, you know, if I had been given to me by a rich relative. And, and then the other thing is I met some professional athletes and those professional athletes, like do it even more economically insane thing and we're not as precious about it. And so I think one of the weird things about this crisis is also like, it's somewhat freeing in the sense that like, like I can't even calculate how much money I've lost, like, you know,

because I'm not checking my stock portfolio on a regular basis, it's impossible to know what opportunities would have been coming your way in May to do jobs in, you know, August that are not going to happen anymore. So, but the point is, the losses are so severe and so like- What's the point of thinking of them? Yes. So in a way, you just like stop thinking about money. You're just like, things cost what they cost. I need things to survive.

Yeah. And you set it almost like it's like when people get their arm cut off, they're not like, does that hurt? It's just like your whole body, like takes care of the pain part. It just like shuts off that part of your brain. Yeah, that's right. My therapist said something similar. Like something was going bad in my life back when I was 28, my first marriage had fallen apart. And I was like, it's so weird that I don't care that this other major thing has gone wrong.

And he's like, yeah, you just got bit by a shark. You don't care about the jellyfish sting. But there was like, I even, I think I said something like this in the book, like being depressed and being sad, there's kind of a snowed-in comfort to it. I'm not saying it was pleasant, but there was even when it was happening. And this is before all my spiritual stuff, there's still a simplicity to it where you go all I have to do is be divorced guy, divorce guy drinks, divorce guy eats Chinese food, divorce guy cries watching the sopranos. Like you kind of get your script delivered to you every day and it's easy. Like nobody expects anything from you. So there's kind of a weird equanimity to that. Similar here,

there's a real forced surrender to it. Surrender, of course, of being a huge part of my spiritual identity, surrender, and suffering is a big part of my spiritual identity. And suffering, I use Richard Roer's definition, suffering is when things aren't in your control. So it doesn't just mean like, oh, oh, oh, or boohoo, I'm sad. It just means things aren't in your control. And when you can't rely on yourself to solve something or change something, that's when you learn to, this is straight Richard Roer, by the way,

you learn to dig deeper and dig into a more infinite source that is a part of you. Some people call that God, some people call it consciousness, some people call it the universe, whatever it is, that is sort of where a lot of truth is hiding for me. But something you said, I really want to say this to you, because I think we're similar in this way. The thing that makes our addictions, money addiction, power addiction, influence addiction, being a good worker, even the addiction to honoring the time you've put in

to get into your exclusive field. And that is a type of addiction. The problem when I talk to that part of my brain that tells me how special it is that I'm a comedian that tells me things like, well, you're playing pro ball and your salaries inflated, but it's not going to last forever. So you should do as much as you can. He's right. That's what's so fucking tricky about this puzzle. Is if you sit down and have a rational conversation with that part of you that wants to say yes to things and travel and book and get the jobs, they're right. And I'm a Anyagram 3, that means it's an achiever.

And one of the blind spots of the NEA Graham three is that if it works, it's true. We don't really care about an objective truth or big truth. If it works, it's true. And I can just hear my father, who I believe is also three, saying like, well, what's something that's true that doesn't work?

I was just having this fake conversation with him this afternoon. And I was like, friendship, friendship doesn't work. I was just having this fake conversation with them this afternoon. And I was like, friendship, friendship doesn't work. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't work. Like you make a friend. And yeah, they give you some good time and someone to watch a movie with.

But then guess what? They call you when they're heartbroken. And now they're like eating into your time. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying this is how I feel. I'm saying that doesn't work. It doesn't like help. It doesn't make you produce. It doesn't enhance necessarily. It just becomes like a crying baby, like somebody that you have to feed and help and nourish. The same is true of love doesn't work. They have no utility, but they're very valuable. That's exactly right. And I struggle so hard, I thrive in utility, I thrive in things that work. I have a really hard time and maybe you do too. and he's a musician and we just kept putting it off because he was holding up finishing an album

and I was holding up finishing a script. So the part of my brainless utilitarian was like, that's right, that script could potentially delight millions and it will make you money and it will make you important and it will make you feel good. He's right, but finally I saw Michael last night and I'm in an incredible mood. You know what I mean? Like it was such a, it didn't work, it didn't make me money, it didn't even like, I can't even say it lowered my stress necessarily, but it probably did actually. Now that I say that it was friendship and that is something that I'm trying to learn.

I'm trying to learn how to be a better friend, try to be a more embodied person. All these things that don't necessarily make like economic or power or sense, but that makes if it works, it's true. And that's just not how the world is. It's how capitalism is. It's how the United States is. But there are parts of the world that are just like, what? Like they wouldn't, they wouldn't understand, like, we're weird aliens that are just going around going like, well, if I write nine books, I can make all this cash and they're like, but I'm going to give them a Dutch accent. But when do you feed the cats? You know what I mean? And you're like, you hire someone to feed the cats. They're like, what then you do not hear the pass. You know, it's like, I need to learn to be more, uh, that was German, but Dutch German fantasy person.

Is this thing all? Check one, two, one, two. Hey, y'all. I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo. I'm just the name of you. Now I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovelyly nicknamed me Kiki Kiki Pabag Palmer. And trust me, I keep a bag love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started. And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby This Is Kiki Palmer podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind. What will former child stars be if they weren't actors? What happened to sitcoms? It's only fans, only bad. I want to know. So I asked my mom about it. These are the questions

that keep me up at night. But I'm taking these questions out of my head and I'm bringing them to you. Because on Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, no topic is off limits. Follow Baby This Is Kiki Palmer, whatever you get your podcasts. Hey, prime members, you can listen early and app-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. No, I think I actually think one of the things you and I connected over is somewhat strange parents. It sounds like we had a similar dynamic between the two of them and then between us and them and us and our siblings and so on and so forth. I find that place of the like you know that I'm special. This is a really hard thing. You don't know what it took to do this. Like you don't

understand the economics. Like this is a tightrope, to me part of that logic. If one, I think it's ego, but if I try to place that ego, it's very sort of misunderstood teenager, like kid who is special, but parents don't think, is special or don't fully appreciate how special the kid is. And so it's like, oh, that makes complete sense. That was my childhood.

And so there's a, I'm curious, one of my favorite things that you've talked about is that Ram Das quote, where you think you're enlightened, go spend a weekend with your family. How, how are you managing that? Because I remember you telling me there was some stress, was this like February or something, you're telling me you're going through something I'm just curious how you are. Yeah my parents are really really tricky

and difficult for me. My pro my good boy programming if you ever hear me talk about my parents on my podcast I'm always very careful be like I love them I I'll say it a million times I'll be talking about some traumatic story or some difficult misunderstanding. And I keep, my therapist used to call them pop-ups, like those ads that used to pop up in the early days of the internet, like they do these pop-ups where I'm getting too close to a true emotion.

So I better say, like, I love them and they sure did everything they could. They did the best they could so like I'm just gonna say at once. Hopefully I love them They did the best they could and honestly if this is helpful to you Ryan Whenever I think of them now because I'm trying to make a new neural pathway I say I forgive you every time I think of them and I get a bad I'm faking it till I make it I do forgive them

But I'm really trying to get like a deep, like you guys did everything you did and everything you're doing because you want love, because you were afraid, because you were confused or whatever it was. You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to give them the same benefit of the doubt that I give myself.

When I make a mistake, I'm like, well, paid you were scared or you were confused or you were whatever you were doing your best, I'm trying to give that to them. So I really am working on that so much so that whenever I think of them, I say sometimes out loud like I forgive you, I forgive you. And by the way, this sounds this is a pop-up. It sounds like it did something horrible. This is pretty standard non-abusive. It wasn't even verbally abusive. This is just like people that Emotional issues shit. Yeah, that's right. And I say that not as a pop-up. I say that just so people know what we're talking about here I'm talking about whenever I introduce my parents to people. I say just so you know, they're not people

use my parents to people, I say, just so you know, they're not people. That's like, it's the only, it's the, I, you know, I've known them my whole life. It's the only phrase that I found that is at all helpful in prepping someone to meet them. Because usually people are like, Oh, give them a break. You know, you're probably, you should try and find some common ground or this or that. I'm like, everything you're saying makes sense for people. Like, I know what you're talking about. Like, cookie parents, that's not what we're dealing with. We're dealing with like a species of human that I just haven't seen anywhere else. So when something that you just said, this is where I would tell you that I love them. When we write and when I create, so the forgiveness and my accepting and trying to turn

the volume down on my drive are related. I got in a fight. It was like a weird, horrible, like a bad play or something. We, I remember I ordered pizza. Val was at a town, so it was me and the baby. And I remember being like, oh, this is perfect. I can sort of frankly, like spare Val.

It's not always easy to hang out with my whole family. And I was like, she'll be with friends. I think she, I don't know if she was in New York or somewhere else, but she was out of town. I was like, that works. Part. I was like, that works. Part of me was like, that works. I'll deal with it. You know what I mean? Like, I got it.

Terrible idea. After that visit, I was like, we need to do it together. She said we need to do it together. And my whole life, I've had this, maybe people can relate. It's like, you got to feed my family. Like we're sort of like reverse Grimmlands. You have to feed us after midnight.

You have to keep feeding us. Like the best times we've had, and I figured this out, is like go get ice cream. Like when they come, go get ice cream. Everyone will be like sugar high, fat, comfortable. We'll have something to do. When we get hungry, we're so bad and I'm so bad. And I ordered, this is obviously prequarantine,

I ordered from a pizza place, I've ordered from a thousand times. It took three hours, it never came. Like, so we were starving, blood sugar was so low. It was just me, my mom, my dad, and my baby. And I got real mother bear. The energy started to feel like it felt

when I was growing up. I couldn't even believe what a David Lynchian nightmare it was that like voices were starting to get raised and like the frequency that only they can create. And frankly, only the three of us can create. Like I'm participating in this. I'm something to them. They're something to me.

And it's just creating this thick, horrible, shadowy nightmare of tension, and we're so hungry. And I had, I have on my mantel piece, there's a little statue I have of Christ meditating, which I just thought was fun. So I got a little Jesus who's meditating. And then next to him is Hanuman. Hanuman is sort of the Jesus of Hinduism, meaning he's not the son of God, but he's similar.

He's sort of like God's faithful servant. I just like both of those stories, and they're in similar positions, so I put them back to back. Almost just like action figures. It's not like super thoughtful. I mean, I like both of them, but I'm not like, isn't this perfect? I mean, do you get it? It's not like fan fiction. It's just like, I like the way these look, and I like what they make me think of. And frankly, they are seen from the rational mind. These are opposing religions. Seen from the heart, you go, these are exactly the same thing,

how beautiful to put them together. It's literally what the mystics would call third-way thinking. It's not exclusionary, it's inclusive, it doesn't make literal sense, it's mythical, it's something special. Does that make sense? It's like, it's putting two things that don't make sense together together and somehow they make sense. And you can't quite, you couldn't even articulate it. So my mom, who raised me evangelical and we really bonded over that, was like, and I'm so hungry and I'm holding the baby.

And it's now at 7.30, which is the baby's bedtime. And they're still there. You know what I'm saying? They should have that. One of the things, and I would say this, if they were in the room, not that they'll ever hear this, but it's just like, they don't have that like,

oh, okay, well the pizza's not here, here's my fantasy. Peter, we're so happy to see you. Thank you for having us over. Obviously it's the baby's bedtime. It stinks that the pizza didn't come. We're gonna go. You know what I mean?

Sure. We love you. This is clearly stressful. I'm sorry it didn't work out, but we got three hours together. We're gonna go. Good night to the baby. I hope you do okay with the baby. Good night. But instead, they're just sort of like waiting to be fed. I made a joke on, I forget if it was Colbert or a cordon or one of them, whereas like they said, are your parents helpful with the baby? And I'm like, no, it's like three babies. I just have three things I have to feed.

So my mom, at the worst moment, the baby is starting to like need to go to bed. I'm feeling very protective of the baby and we're all starving. And I'm basically a baby holding a baby at this point because they've made me revert to my child self, which is a very erred, small version of myself. It doesn't even make sense that I'm holding this baby.

Like if we shot this as a movie, it should be a 12 year old holding a baby. Like that's what it should be. And without getting any more into it, I could talk about this night for a million years. My mom starts grilling me about the Jesus and the Hanuman. Yeah, it's, and I'm just like, it's like, I know, isn't this the worst story? This is like one of the worst nights of my life for sure

And that and what a great thing that it's just psychological trauma, but My shit is my shit and this is my shit So she just goes I just don't understand Like how do these make sense and I thought I was being loving I really tried my best I said it's okay to me that it doesn't make sense. And I thought I was being loving. I really tried my best. I said, it's okay to me that it doesn't make sense to you. That's what I said. I was like, it's not important to me that you get that and that you like it. And I really meant it. I thought I was really being very zan about it. I was like, she's like, but it doesn't make sense to me. I was like, that's okay with me.

Like, that's all right. Like, I'm kind of walking you through the seven hour lecture of like why I can appreciate the two faiths at the same time. I'm just gonna say, I was trying to be loving. I was like, that's okay. Like, I don't need you to be me, basically, is what I was trying to say. I don't need you to believe what I believe. I don't need you to be me, basically, is what I was trying to say. I don't need you to believe what I believe.

I don't need you to think how I think. If that's confusing to you, that's okay. But the real rub of this, by the way, Ryan, is that I've explained and talked about those things to my mom a million times. The thing that's so frustrating about my mom is that we've had these moments of two person enlightenment. I'll send her a Richard Roer city and we talk. And there she is.

I mean, like the real her, like not, not neuroses, not fear, but like we meet as souls and we're there together and it's like the clouds part and we're both free together. We've dropped the role of son and mother. We're just two pieces of the mystery and we can breathe fresh air together. And it's been so wonderful.

It happened when I sent her Rob Bell's book, Love Winds. The punchline of that is that I took her to meet Rob and the first thing she said to Rob was, I loved your book, but it's not biblical. I mean, like she just went away. Like the mom that maybe you've had experiences like that, the converted mom, the free mom, always kind of get sucked back in by her,

I don't know what it is, by her fear, by her church friends, by her community. What I happen to think it might be her fear, but she goes away. So the next time I talk to her, there's no continuation. It's not like, well, we made it to that wrong of the latter last time. So next time we talk, even if it's two, three days later, we should still be on that wrong, right? Yeah, you want to build and you're sort of craving a connection and you're having expectations and then it's like groundhog day. It's beyond groundhog guy because not only let's say when we talked,

she was on Run 3, and then we got to run 6. Oh my God, how did we get to run 6? We're having like a real conversation about a loving presence and grace and mercy and everything being okay. That's what, like a lot of enlightenment, you can say, you feel one with everything, right?

An easier way to say that is, everything was beautiful and nothing hurt, which I believe is vontigate. Or just everything is okay. I'm okay. You're okay. The world is okay. Everything is forgiven, including reality itself is forgiven for being as horrible as it can be.

We are forgiven. Everything. And we're just in the moment and everything's in sunlight and it's great But then the next time you talk you go from six now you're on you're on the ground You're not even on the ladder like you go lower than you were the last time you talked in got to six now You're on run zero and so there's that pain and as I'm talking about that you're helping me get in touch with how much that hurts me. If it's not that I don't like explaining to my mom

how I've grown, we have to keep in mind this is the mom that comes over and I have a Buddha in my garden. She knocked it over. She went over and toppled it. At first time she came over, she toppled it. And she was kind of half kidding, but she said,

I cast you out in the name of Jesus and she pushed Buddha onto his face. Like, and I'm just like, no, why do you like this? What is it about Buddhism that you like? It was just so like, I've tried and in my mind, there have been moments where I'm not even going to say I did the impossible. It really did feel like a moment of grace, like something happened where we both opened, just like, you know, a flower doesn't open itself. The sunlight opens the flower, gives the prompt to open the flower. So the sunlight opened us both. But then, like I said, it always reverts.

So she's asking me about Hanuman and Christ. And buddy, this goes back to exactly what we're talking about and forgive me, I've been talking so much. But in that moment, I felt so hurt. I remembered that I wrote a book about it. Yeah. Yeah. And Ryan, I hope this is of some use to you because this was a breakthrough for me, just like

all the great moments of suffering. Afterwards, are these great moments. I realized how much me writing books, writing TV shows, I just had the episodes at the Simpson's air that I wrote. So much of what I'm doing is trying to get my parents to understand who I really am. So it's not even just religion. That happens to be this area that we disagree on. But like, that's when I kind of snapped. When I say snapped, I mean that in a very wasp way. We're not, meaning we're not like a, we're not colorful. Yeah, sure. We're not having like a screaming match. Maybe it would be healthier if we did,

but my heart just broke when I thought I wrote a book about it and she read it. And I realized in that moment, it doesn't work. So we're back. It's never gonna happen. We're back to surrender. Do, when we saying just 10 minutes ago, I was like, surrender is a huge part of it. So is suffering is a huge part of it. And in that moment, I really had my nose rubbed in it, just how badly I need both of those.

Like, fucking stop it. Don't write a book. So your parents will read it and go there you are, Peter, like fucking hook. There you are. I see you now. It's sad, but whether or not they ever update the file on 15-year-old me, 14-year-old me, and see me as 41- 41 year old this that and the other. That is so out of my control. And brain science is not in my favor when it comes to the neuroplasticity of minds as we age. Like there comes a time to go like, you know what? I have a post it on my desk here that says because joy matters, you're a big, why guy? Like, why do we do things?

I'm trying to do things now for a more pure reason. What would happen if we didn't do it for money? If we didn't do it for power, if we didn't do it to get our parents to understand us, what if we did it because joy matters? Like your joy and me sharing truth and joy and light and what's helped me with you and if that lights your candle, that's a beautiful thing. We can get some some real shit going instead of playing this. There's I'm sorry, I'm really ranting here,

but Eckhart Tolly has this great thing. Eckhart Tolly is one of my great teachers. Obviously, the power of now is one of the greatest books ever written. If the people listening read one book, don't read mine, read the power of now, absolutely hands down, that's not false humility. He says in it something like, people say, I need my parents to understand me

to be happy. And he goes, really? Oh my, he just, like he says says really? Almost like sign fell or something. He's like, you need your parents to understand you to be happy? Like, what are we doing? Like, wake up from the dream. You do not need that. That is something that you've come to believe that you need when really the surrender and the suffering can take you in and drop your anchor into the perfect present

where that story is irrelevant to your general contentment. But I hope that answers your question. That is the kind of torment I can experience with my hungry parents. No, no, I totally get it. And weirdly, I wonder how much of what's been happening and sort of have sort of brings it all into stark relief, but I had a sort of similar breakthrough.

It was like, man, I thought I was doing this stuff because I was good at it. I thought I was doing it because I loved it. And I, both those things are true, but there's the third thing, which is how convenient it is that I also ended up being a thing that if logic was true and if people were rational, would perfectly align me with what I should need to impress my parents. Yeah. And get them to love me and get them to treat me with respect and, you know.

And you have back in if your parents treated you how I do when I'm just like, oh my God, you wrote all these books and like I read them and I understand them and like, how do you do it? Like it's all of us, it's our sad little fantasy. Yeah. I'm telling you. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so heartbreaking. I know.

I know. And sad. And and and and so you sort of come to this conclusion, oh, wait, you're trying, you're trying to earn something that was never yours. There's a there's a David Brooks quote that I heard that that doesn't line up perfectly, but it sort of similarly expresses the hopelessness of that. He said, you know, like God is God is giving us a gift and we try to buy it. And I think it's like you're trying to earn this thing that you should have had from birth that's sort of painful in my situation because it appears to me that my parents have it with other people including including other stiblings of mine, which could be a projection. But the point is you come to this sort of rock bottom moment where you realize you're never going to get it. And then I think what that leaves you if it's this distinction as a stoic's make between what's in our control, it's not in our control, then it's like, how do you just not pass this on to another generation?

And there's a, in the Judd Apatel thing about Gary Shanling, and I love your interview with him. You know, he has, he wrote in his diary, he said, you know, sort of, you have to give what you, what you didn't get. He says, drop the old story. So curious, how are you thinking about this as a father now, not doing what was so transparently done to you? I mean, that is the real gift of that. And I'm going to say it one more time. I really do love my parents. One per rant, I'll say. And they really did and are doing their best. And every once in a while, I catch themselves growing. That being said, the gift of the dysfunction is that it showed me where to zag.

They're zicking and we're gonna zag. And like my fantasies for my daughter, I have so many fantasies of how to love her as abundantly and as non-unconditionally as possible. And I don't think that would happen unless I had exactly the precise traumas or experiences that I had. Something that you were saying that I only during the quarantine I've gotten in touch with is that there's a part of me that loves performing, right? I call it my silly side because it's the effortless side. I love being silly. There's no

part of me that it's like, why are you asking me to be silly? I feel the same way about being deep or thoughtful. Like I like those things. Those are natural and good for me. But performing, like turning it on, when you don't feel like doing it, is what I did my whole life. And when you bring in, like I was talking to Mike, but bigly about this, it's like, there's something kind of beautiful about this. And there's something kind of sad about it. Alcohol was a part of my childhood and learning to control 10 situations by making people laugh

is how I survived my childhood. And again, nothing physical, nothing overtly abusive. I'm just saying two parents that didn't necessarily like each other, alcohol is involved, and you're a confused kid. So there's this part of me that I really have been trying to get in touch with that's like, like each other, alcohol is involved, and you're a confused kid. So there's this part of me that I really have been trying to get in touch with. That's like there's a part that resents having to perform.

Even though it's what I do, and it's what I've tried really hard to do, I remember even being a kid, I'd go to kids birthday parties and the first time I mashed my face into the cake and ice cream and got a big laugh. Even being a kid, I'd go to kids birthday parties. And the first time I mashed my face into the cake and ice cream and got a big laugh. I remember that making me feel good. And then I remember the second time I was at a birthday party and I did it and it made me feel good.

And then the third time the kids like expected me to do it. And I don't remember much from my childhood, but I remember very distinctly going like, now I have to do this. So there's, I'm trying to like uncover some of these cobwebs and I think my best work is going to lie in me getting in touch with the part of me that really loves it. It's doing it because I love it, not doing it to reenact and recreate the so nightclub is drunk people. You know, that outshurder me that are hostility and I will go up and I will win them over.

What part of that is just a fucked up old record? The same script that I'm playing out over and over going, well, I don't have to have dinner with my parents anymore, but I'll do late Friday at hilarious. You know what I mean? Yeah. Can we script some of that away to just be a more liberated performer, a more pure, I do this like my post it because joy matters,

because pain is real, because disconnection is real, because despair is real. Let'sion is real, because despair is real. Let's get together and create something positive. Instead of just what I've done so much of my career going, well, that felt good, that works, so it must be true. Well, that doesn't mean it's true. Just because you've become an addict, an affirmation addict, and a power addict, when I say power, by the way,

I don't mean I use my fame to get into restaurants. I just mean the feeling of superiority, which is way more dangerous, subtle, and toxic. To any sort of boss around, like I have this intense reaction against, like, what I project to be like middle aged men having control over what I can and can't do. It is so almost Freudianly preposterous. I completely agree. We had a homeless guy living on our street for a really long time who was just yelling fuck and it was just a male voice that was bleeding into my house and I was like, why doesn't this bother Valerie as much as it bothers me?

Hey, dipshit, Dr. Freud could fix this in five seconds. It's a male voice invading your home. Like, it's different for you. And you need to have some compassion for yourself in that situation. But anyway, I mean, when I think about Lila, my fantasy today was I was like, well, if we do somehow, you know, get some houses and have friends, you know,

like a little commune, like a little bit of a collective, and we just get to a place where our life is simple enough that we don't have to fly around and do all this and that, and we can do things that we love, like the podcast and write books and write scripts. But like mostly we just chop wood and carry water. My fantasy would be saying to Lila, you don't have to ever get a job. Who says you have to get a job? And you know what I learned that was Rob, Rob Bell.

His son is actually incredibly high functioning now. And you know what I learned that was Rob, Rob Bell. His son is actually incredibly high functioning now. There was a time when he seemed a little unmotivated. I don't wanna get into their business and I'm not. But there was a time when I remember asking Rob, I don't know why I thought of this, but his son sort of reminded me of my brother. And my brother is not, he's not like a go out and kick ass take names, make a billion dollars. He's a beautiful, a little bit more simple guy,

you know. And I said to my, I don't mean intellectually simple, I just mean he's not a capitalist whore. And I said to Rob, I was like, what happens if your son just wants to live with you? Like he doesn't want to go to college, he doesn't want to do this. And he's like, he's welcome to stay as long as he wants. He goes, that would be a dream if he just wants to stay. And it just broke my heart in a beautiful way where I was like, you can love your kids like that. You can say, if you want to stay here, my family would be like, that's embarrassing. You are a failure. Therefore, I am a failure.

What will people think? What will people say? You're not contributing. You're not making a product to sell. You're not making money to buy other people's products. How are you an American? There's basically what we're saying. So I have this fantasy today,

and I know Val feels the same way. I'm like, and by virtue of this, by the way, if our attitude is, you don't have to do anything. Chances are they're gonna thrive in that rich, beautiful soil, find what they actually wanna do, and do it with no fear, with just like, I do what I do because it's what I want to do. It's what's written on the marrow of my bones.

I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to dance. I'm going to, she could, she could do whatever she wanted. And I mean that, like things that are not exactly my values, meaning like an athlete or a general or something, you know, I'm saying like things that aren't in my experience. We just want to look at Lila as something we're

gardening. We protect it. We shine light on it. But this whole trip of like her success is my success. How many movies were the dad freaking out at the Little League game? Do we need to see? Like, or in fuck movies, how many times did we see that? You know, naming our children are names. It's like, it's one of the weirdest, my brother is my father's name, the third. It's like, it's so transparent. And I'm just like, I'm grateful that I have Rob in my life, these examples of these unconditionally loving parents, who by the way, the son that I'm talking about, couldn't be more impressive and more achieving.

There was a pocket there where he was like, I don't know if I want to go to school. He did go to school and he killed it. And now, who knows, I'm like, this kid could be president. I mean, that I'm like, this kid could be the president. And it came from, you know, we love you. You're good. No, it's ironic that it's ironic that it's sort of a generation that grew up watching Mr. Rogers never actually got from our parents. That idea, which I've like, you make the world special by being you. I like you the way you are.

You don't actually have to earn this. You have a intrinsic sort of dignity and value as a human being. And like I feel cheesy and weird every time I say that to my son, but I feel like it needs to be said. I feel like in saying it to him. I'm not only telling him something, but I'm also telling myself something.

Yeah. And it's still a weird, I can tell it needs to be said because it's weird coming out of my mouth because I never would have heard anything like that from. That's right. It just didn't make sense. So to get into the forgiveness,

my father and mother grew up in very different circumstances. They had a lot more to overcome. You know, there was a lot scarier of a landscape. I won't get into it, get into it, but they did what they did because it's what they needed to do and they needed to steal themselves. They wanted to be like, you know, fucking John Wayne or whatever it is and get themselves to a better place and they did that. So that's the forgiveness and that's the love and that's the acceptance. I think because I'm watching Mr. Rogers with my daughter now, I think there's a real opportunity here that this generation, the generation that was raised with Mr. Rogers by people who didn't

agree with Mr. Rogers are now people who agree with Mr. Rogers by people who didn't agree with Mr. Rogers are now people who agree with Mr. Rogers raising children on Mr. Rogers. Like he may not have known it, but this might be the heyday of Mr. Rogers. Because you see the movies and the documentaries, there's this resurgence of interest in Mr. Rogers. And no joke, people without kids, throw on some Mr. Rogers. It's on Amazon Prime. You can watch it and I watch it with my daughter.

She gets up and goes to the kitchen or something. I keep watching it. I love it. And he is so fucking right on when it comes to my understanding of God and the universe where he's saying wake up. You said the thing about we're trying to buy God's giving us a gift and we're trying to buy it. The story that I love is the beggar that's sitting on the box and someone finally says what's in the box. And the beggar says I've never looked in it.

He looks in it and is filled with gold. There's countless stories of this that are pointing to people's inherent God-given. You could say, although that might turn people off, but your dignity, your born, not an outsider to this reality that needs to earn his or her worth, but you are an intrinsic and valuable and dignified part of this, of everything that is, of the infinite mystery that hung the stars and set the universe in motion,

you are a piece of it. And that is that. That is it. The rest, that's what Lila means, is a dance. Lila means the dance of the universe. Meaning it's just a dance. Leela means the dance of the universe, meaning it's just a game. When we're at our best, we should be writing books and doing shows and selling TV shows

or whatever it is, knowing that it's just play. It's a dance. It's what the universe is doing to dream, basically. What would it be like to be an author in Austin whose parents seem to like as siblings or appreciate them more? That's your dance and you dance it. But everything that you think you've need to earn is already here. But that sounds like lip service until you actually have an experiential becoming. It's something that you can't know. You can only become it.

But I've done that lots and lots and lots and lots of times. It sounds something that you can't know. You can only become it. But I've done that. Lots and lots and lots and lots of times. It sounds like I'm talking about drugs. There's been drug times and there's been a lot of non-drug times. I had one this morning when I was meditating. You just go, Richie Roer says, when you're present, you will know the presence. And the presence, which we call some call it Hanuman, some call it Christ, I got both. It doesn't matter what you call it. It's what's looking at your eyes right now. And your involvement to that mystery that we call consciousness is the full thing sign sealed delivered.

It's done. The rest is just Lila. The rest is just dance. That's so beautiful. I was thinking, because unfortunately we can't we can't to Pete Holmes level level the length here and just be getting through the the first third of the episode. I had but I do want to continue the therapy session. So I had a question and I'm sure this can go as long as you wanted to go. But I'm curious, so I'm fascinated by your career. I think you and I sort of related because we're in sort of similar places, career-wise, and I've experienced this with a few people that I've known, although authors, the sort of

success and quantification of the success of an author is a little bit more private. But I'm fascinated with your relationship with John Mulaney. You guys started at the same time. You're both hilarious. You both had a slow build in both of your careers. And then one of the careers just takes off stratistically. He's probably one of the career sort of just takes off stratistically, you know, he's probably the one of the most famous and successful comedians in the world right now. How do you, given the pattern that you learned from your parents, given the duality that you have inside yourself, how do you deal with that?

Because it's something I struggle with. There's part of me that's happy for some for people. There's part of me that says, you know what I mean? Like you have this weird, it touches all the buttons that we're talking about. And I think it's a timeless issue. We're talking about it here, and as authors, or comedians, but like I've got to imagine, you know,

generals were jockeying about this 2000 years ago, and, you know, Sennaka was comparing himself to other published philosophers, like it is a timeless thing that we're now able to enjoy. Yeah, yeah, we're not able to enjoy absolute success. We are success matters to us only relative to how other people around us are doing. Yeah, no, I hear that. I actually just wrote down last night because I said it, Michael Gunner was over and he's such a great laugher and Val laughs at me constantly, but I sort of joked to her. I was

like, poor Val is stuck with me. Like, I love being silly, she loves being silly. This is not code for my wife can't stand me. That's, it's quite the opposite. I assure you, we love each other. But having a fresh person in the audience, he was laughing so much. I was like, oh, right. Like if you're not constantly with me,

I guess I am sort of a novel guy. Like I say funny things, I forgot. So one of the things that I said that I wrote down I was like it's hard for me to go on Netflix because it's sort of like my Facebook. Yes, exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah, which is actually why I had to quit, I had to quit Facebook professionally was all the people that I knew and I was in you know groups for public speakers and authors and I was like like, I'm just waking up and Mike, keeping up with the Joneses

is what cars in your neighbor's driveway. But if you don't actually care about that, what you care about is how you're doing in your career. Yeah, Netflix would be a rude reminder of that or Twitter is a rude reminder of that. It's just like I'm sure for some people, it's the front page of the New York Times or, you know, whatever, for Trump, he wakes up and he's like, why is someone else the lead story on CNN and not me? That's right. I, I, the nothing is gained by not being honest.

I'm trying to be more honest about my darkness. And when I go on Twitter, I guess is what I should say as a caveat, so I don't come off as a scumbag, but I'm not proud of this. I catch myself when I see somebody who's less successful than me, my brain will immediately give a one-line summation as to why. It'll be there in alcoholic or it'll be so stupid. It'll be, well, they're really into sports

and you can't be really into sports and also really into comedy. It's one or the other. I'm telling you that judgments, right? These are things you probably would have heard your dad say offhandedly to dismiss people. What it is is it's dad binary thinking. It's toxic capitalist.

There's this Leo Columma cartoonist for the New Yorker, the late great Leo Colummies, one of my favorites. He had this cartoon, maybe people have seen it's these dogs and they're in a board meeting, they're wearing suits. And it says it's not enough that dogs win, cats must also fail.

And I was like, that is the best encapsulation of what I'm talking about here. And it's a part of what I'm going to call my false self. It's a part of my psychology. It's a part of my conditioning. I don't own it. And I work on quieting it. Meaning now I go through Twitter. and I literally practice loving kindness. I see people and their names and I send them positive, not to change them, to change me. I'm trying to change me. I'm trying to really get a new groove going.

Richard Roy says everything you do is practice. People don't want to practice. They don't want to meditate. They don't want to do that. That's a practice. Going through someone else's Twitter, going through your own Twitter and being like, this sucks, this guy sucks, this person that. That's a practice. Going through someone else's Twitter, going through your own Twitter and being like, this sucks, this guy sucks, this person sucks,

that's why they're failing. Or if I see somebody that's more successful than me, I'll click on them to see if they follow me. Like, what the fuck am I doing? Sure. Like, this is not natural. It's not good, it's not right. So, to answer your John Malini question,

I do sometimes catch myself. There's a part of me that when I see his face, all the specials or the sac linch bunch or all these things seem to be coming out, he's hosting us now for the third time. I'm very happy to say that it's not... I was talking to another friend of mine. I realized that it wasn't my goal. I don't think my true goal to be the biggest. I really think that you need to really, really want that. And you also really need to have the talent.

John is just one of those guys that you talked to him for five minutes. And everything he says, you say, is that a bit? Like you should do that. You like write that down. Like he just talks in bits. I don't wanna compare and contrast our lives too much, but I wouldn't trade it and that's not lip service,

because what we're talking about, this whole conversation has been about, like what are we learning from the quarantine? What's really valuable to us? And when I think about Michael Gunger coming over last night, I'm like that filled me up in a way that me ringing the success bell. Again, I can't speak for John, but I'm saying that that gets a little bit old. You know, like I don't know. I think about other people like Dane Cook selling out Madison

Square Garden or Shepal and like Shepel's a good example because he bought that farm in North Carolina. He called it as fuck show business farm. You can see it on his episode of 60 minutes. And at a certain point, a lot of us start to realize that the game that we were sold, you know, the ladder was against the wrong wall. We've been climbing it because it's what we were told to climb. It's everything was a game. Even I was talking to somebody recently about how even a guy having sex is called scoring. Like everything is, I got lucky and I scored and I closed the deal. Everything's a deal.

Everything's getting something for you. And again, I'm not saying that of Dana or John. I'm just saying, and in my 41 years, I'm starting to see, thank God, by the grace of God, we could even say, I'm starting to see that there's a far more beautiful or more subtle game going on. And the part of me that's scrolling through Twitter

and judging everybody, he needs to go. You know, like that's why you replace him with something else. Like, we're grateful to my ego for helping me get food, shelter, and savings. But at a certain point, you go, buddy, you don't have to leave, but I'm asking you to either a, not steer the car or be be quiet.. Just be quiet, like I love you, but you can't steer the ship anymore. Like your way, okay, here's a great example. My favorite movies used to be, there will be blood.

I love the movie, drive. These are all movies about quiet, successful men, meaning whatever they do, they do it better than anybody. Ryan Gosling is a little less clear, but he drives and kills people better than anybody. There will be blood, obviously. He is a story of an ego left unregulated. And what happens to them? They're in a mansion. It's the, all the story, it's vampires. You're in a mansion. It's the whole story. It's vampires. You're in a mansion alone. Your son isn't your son. No one cares about you.

There's a great line actually in the Avengers. Where Dr. Strange burns Tony Stark, he says, unlike everyone else in your life, I don't work for you, which I just thought was a great line. I was like, that's the American model, is you become a person who your friends are your gardener and your assistant. It's like completely unnatural,

and you end up alone, and I'm a big believer that on our deathbeds, we're not gonna say I wrote this many books in your case, or I had this many specials in my case. I don't think that's what it's going to be. And the whole message of spirituality in a deeper way is to die before you die, is to have that realization and that revelation or to use Christian language, to have that conversion before you die. This is what Christ is saying when he's saying, if you want to find your life,

you have to lose it. He's talking about ego death. It sounds so new, A.G., but he also says, I guess it's the grain of wheat doesn't become anything unless it breaks its shell unless it dies. And then it becomes a stock, it grows. You see it in the seed, the seed has to die and be buried, We're surrounded by metaphors for us. I don't think that's a flaw. This is how energy moves in reality.

And you are a part of this reality. And you like the grain of wheat and like the seed need to die, need to be converted like a butterfly. You need to go away. Butter as Ramda says, butterfly-ness cannot occur until you let go of caterpillars. And that is me going, it's not my bank account, it's not my achievements. Mr. Rogers was right.

It's not even whether or not I was good or bad or this or that. It's letting that stuff go, realizing that it's an illusion, that it's a story, that it's a series of synapses firing in my brain, and the true reality isn't the slide, it's the light that's shining through the slide. That's your true, I didn't know you, that's who you are, and that's where it pieces, that's where equanimity is, that's where joy is. Not just on your deathbed, which is where a lot of people put it off to and a lot of them don't even get it.

Have it now, drop it now, realize it's lila now and step into your true self. Have you read what makes Sammy run the novel? No. Oh, you gotta read it. It's like the quintessential Hollywood novel. It's written in the 20s about this sort of re-gold type like ambitious like start at the bottom, ends up running the studio. And it's one of the most influential books I've ever read. It's one of my favorite novels,

but basically they're to spoil the ending. There's this scene and so basically they're you sort of watch Sammy's rise from like an errand boy at a newspaper to the, to basically like the head of MGM or something like that. And it's sort of observed by this older like in this analogy, it'd be more like me and you successful, but not the, the main guy, the guy who can't quite figure out why it's never happening for him guy. the main guy, the guy who can't quite figure out why it's never happening for him guy. And, or not happening to the same degree, sort of watching Sammy's rise with a mix of fascination and horror. And the big scene is, you know, Sammy gets married and the day, the night of his, after

he gets married, he calls this guy to his house. And it's like, he's already found out that his wife hates him, you know, his life. So anyways, this thing, this, this is one of my favorite paragraphs in all literature. He goes, you know, I've been waiting my whole, this whole time, he says for a cancer to sort of rise up and smite Sammy down and to punish him for his excesses

and his dishonesty and all these things. And then he's like, and there was in this moment, I realized that being Sammy was the cancer and that he wouldn't have been able to, like basically he realizes that this thing that you think maybe isn't fair is in its own way. It's sort of form of an eternal endless punishment because Sammy can never change

nor does Sammy have the realization to know that his lack of changing is what's making him unhappy. And I think back to this all the time, I think you would love it. That's great. I mean, we're back to surrender. Yes.

I mean, most of the major religions that I've studied all have the idea that it happens to you, you can't do it. It's so unsatisfying to the ego that wants to buy it, that wants to achieve it. And I, of course, have been guilty of this in the past, but you have to realize that you already, you are made of enlightenment itself.

Like this, and everything that's in the way is if you wanna say that's the problem and everything that's in the way is, if you want to say that's the problem, but that's stopping you from perceiving it. That's the reason I wanted to write my book and the thing that I'm most proud of in my book is that I say there's nothing you can do to increase or decrease the infinite love of God

or the mystery or the universe. There's only things you can do that increase or decrease your awareness of that love or your experience of that love So everybody, you know any good Buddhist co-on is basically trying to point you to the idea that there's nothing you can do Yet there is as Ram does would say but get to it You know, it's like a paradox it doesn't make any sense

But that's sort of the fun event No, I love it man. Thanks so much. But that's sort of the fun of it. No, I love it, man. Thanks so much. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. I'm sorry, it took so long to finally sit down and do it. No, no, this is the best.

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