The Daily Stoic - Ryan And Jordan Harbinger Live At The West

Episode Date: June 18, 2023

Jordan Harbinger is a podcaster, radio personality, entrepreneur and longtime friend of Ryan’s. So when he invited Ryan to come to The West in LA to join him for a live conversation for his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show, Ryan jumped on a plane right away. This is that conversation, in which they discuss how they find their flow states, the ins and outs of teaching Stoicism, cultivating a healthy relationship with work, and more. You can follow Jordan’s work on Twitter @JordanHarbinger and Instagram @jordanharbinger, and on his website www.jordanharbinger.com.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic Podcast early and add free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic Podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, from the Stoic texts, audio books that you like here recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy and most importantly that you're able to apply it to a life. Thank you for listening. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to a weekend episode of The Daily Stoic Podcast. I guess it was almost a year ago, maybe a little bit less than a year ago, I flew out to Los Angeles to see one of my favorite people, Jordan Harbinger, who may have been one of the first podcasts I ever did, like way back on Trust Me, I'm lying. So, he and I have known each other a very long time, have been, both been through some complicated things with business partners and projects over the years

and definitely lean on each other. He's one of my favorite people to text. I do know he reads the daily dad every morning because he always sends me little notes about it, which I enjoy. So he was doing a live episode of his podcast at a place called The West in Los Angeles. So I flew out, we did a quick interview.

If you've been watching the YouTube channel, you might have seen some B-roll of that because we had a nice conversation out back with some friends. Anyways, here is Jordan Harbinger interviewing me, having a bit of a conversation. And he was telling me that his memento Mori Medallion had recently been stolen or lost. So I happen to have a spare one in my pocket, which I gave him. And that was just one of the many stoic themes we talked about in this great conversation. You can listen to the Jordan Harbinger podcast anywhere. You get your podcasts.

I usually listen to it on Spotify myself, but I've got three, four episodes. We did maybe two in person, couple remote, one remote during the pandemic maybe two in person, couple remote, one remote during the pandemic, all of which is to say, if you want more of me and Jordan, you can check out the Jordan Harbinger podcast. And then I think in a later episode,

this week I'm gonna bring you some of the Q&A from that conversation. Thanks to Jordan for having me on. You can follow him on Instagram at Jordan Harbinger, and go to his website, JordanHarbinger.com. And of course, follow the Jordan Harbinger podcast. And hopefully he'll be out in Texas to do a daily steward podcast soon.

Life can get you down. I'm no stranger to that. When I find things are piling up, I'm struggling to deal with something, obviously I use my journal, obviously I turn to stochism, but I also turn to my therapist, which I've had for a long time and has helped me through a bunch of stuff. And because I'm so busy and I live out in the country, I do therapy remote, so I don't have to drive somewhere. And that's where today's sponsor comes in. Toxbase makes it easy to find a therapist that you like. It's convenient. It's affordable. By doing everything online, Talkspace makes getting the help you want easy and affordable,

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the daily stoic, that's Talkspace.com slash stoic. Ryan, thank you for coming all the way from Texas, man. I appreciate that. There was a little scare this morning. Maybe a little flight delay here and there. Five and a half hours. No big deal. No big deal.

Do you feel like you're in the future when you get to California from Texas? Well, everyone from California is moving to Texas. That is true. You got me on that one. You got me on that one. A robot passed me on the way to get a juice today, which I thought was like, I'm like, wow, this is really like that. What's that Disney movie where no one walks anymore and they're all super fat?

Wally. I'm like, this is the beginning of that. And Texas, the robot would be carrying an assault rifle. Yeah. Yeah. In AR. It's not an assault rifle. It's the brand name, okay?

All right. So it's good to see you, man. Thank you so much for doing this. Yeah. I know we're in some COVID protocols here. A lot of people showed up for this. I'm, you know, I was surprised. I have to say, I probably shouldn't say this out loud.

I was very surprised at the demand for this because I thought, oh, who wants to see a live show? Because usually I'm doing this in my literally we were talking about it. I'm usually in my underwear, but I'm like a button down kind of guy on the top. And nobody has to know. And here we are. I had to put pants on for this. But most of you had to drive here and park for this in LA traffic.

So you guys are the real heroes here. And this table, I wanted to get a Vladimir Putin style table. So we were really far from each other Yeah, but this is this is actually the only table they had All right, do you get nervous for doing a live broadcast at all? Not really. No, I don't think so. Do you know? Not until the significantly less people than you would normally talk to you Yeah, that's true

Although hopefully more people will listen to what we're doing here. I've heard you say that you're not nervous for television either, even live TV. Yeah, I guess not. I mean, I feel like when you know what you're talking about, you're that like people are like, are you afraid going on stage? But I feel like if you, if I was giving a lecture about physics, I would be nervous. You know, or something I didn't know about. But I was also thinking before we've done this, I think I've been on the show more than any other person. That's probably true.

So we have a lot of practice. Yeah, we have a lot of practice. When you know what you're talking about, I usually don't really necessarily know what I'm talking about. But you're not talking. That's a good point. You're the one who has to be ready for questions. I can just sort of wait.

I think getting prepped on though is never easy for live TV. You can do your best, you can be prepared, but you can't really guess what's coming from the interviewer. Well live TV is weird. Like I've, when you do cable news spots, I actually, it's a harder thing because you have like three minutes or five minutes

You have to talk like up this is an hour or whatever I feel like even if I suck at the beginning, I can probably pull myself out of It's enough time that the really tight spots are hard Like when you have only a very little bit of time and then you're you I think you also realize like every medium Has its own set of rules and the people who do it a lot have figured out those rules. So, you know, sort of figuring out what works in each space, but I see it more as like a puzzle, as opposed to like something that's intimidating. That's a good way to look at it actually, yeah. Because live radio, when you're doing like call in live radio, when I was on serious XM, a zillion years ago,

you, a caller can't sit there and be like, let me tell you the beginning of this story. Do you like, nope, get right to the question, you're sitting there with like Dr. Drew or something. Get right to the question. The worst part of radio and like morning radio shows or then like the cable news spots is actually like, when you get there, so you get there like 30 minutes earlier,

you're calling like 30 minutes early. And then you have to watch the thing. So like I find for instance cable news to be like one of the most toxic things you can put in your body or your brain. And so I avoided it all costs and then it's like wait before I'm about to go do this really hard thing. I just had to watch 30 minutes of box news or whatever and you're like it's going into, it's very hard to like keep your equilibrium and then morning radio you're like, it's going into, it's very hard to like keep your equilibrium. And then morning radio, you're like, you're having to listen to like, you know, Bobby and the douche or whatever for like 20 minutes. And like it actually, like it, I feel like it takes you out of your normal headspace. And then you, so, so it's like, it's keeping whatever the sort of bubble

that you exist in as like a person who knows what you're talking about and likes what you're doing. And then it can be weird to like go into the zone, the same when like when you do talks, they're like, I gave this talk a couple years ago, I talked at the NFL owners meeting and it was the weirdest talk I've ever given. Why is it, I mean, that sounds exciting. Well, I mean, it was weird in the sense that the audience was all the owners of the NFL, all the GMs and all the coaches. So it's like 32 billionaires, like, you know, then, like, then the people you see on television

every, you know, it's like the people you know, right, and it's huge. And it's always looking angry, guys. Yeah, and like they set it up and they were like, okay, like I was speaking last and they were like, okay, you'll just sit here in the front row. And I was like, I can't sit here for two hours watching other, like I can't watch the whole event and then talk. Right. I was like, I need to go in the back and paste like a crazy person

and go to the bathroom like 30 times and like, you know, so I think that when you're like performing or doing anything in public, it's like, you have to figure out like how you get into the zone or whatever that headspace you do, and that is hard if all of a sudden you're thrust in a very unfamiliar environment. I think that's why you see NBA players

or whatever, they're listening to headphones, and you have to towel on. Yeah, you have to go into some, I don't know what you would call, but you're going into this place and you have to figure out how to stay there because if you're, you know, like your traffic, you have to figure out how to access whatever it is that you do. That's interesting, yeah, because people talk about things like flow states or whatever.

For sports, I understand that. You're doing pushups or jumping jacks in the back, you get warmed up stretched out and then you stay in the locker room, you go to your vaults. I mean, I know a lot about gymnastics, as you can song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song,

I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song,

I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the song, I'm just trying to be a part of the clothes, like you're in, you just got up a flight, you're jet lagged, it's a totally different environment.

And like you said, you're doing cable news or talk radio, something you said is the most toxic thing, and you're about to contribute to that problem. Yes. And you have to get into that headspace, but also your own headspace of how you're gonna perform. But I think just generally, like whatever it is you do, what is the headspace where you do your best work?

I think we often are just sort of like winging it. We don't think that much about cultivating the environment, going into going into whatever that. My book's stillness, I call that space stillness. How do you get into a place where it can be crazy around you, but you've sort of slowed it down. You've eliminated the extraneous. Your mind is not thinking of 50 other things. You have to figure out how to access that to do

what it is that you do. It's not that you can't whitenuck a lid or just force it, but it's just that's never where like the best performance comes from. Does it feel still when you're doing it? Because I feel like for me it doesn't feel still. I'm like checking me, it doesn't feel still. I'm like checking volume, checking notes, making sure the baby's not crying in my current situation, checking the internet again, and repeat like ad nauseam. Yeah, I guess.

I mean, I try to sort of slow that stuff down. I mean, you can be very active. Yeah, I call it neurotic, but whatever. Yeah. I mean, you should, you're at a, you're at the irony of stillness is that you need it most when you're doing the most. Like you think of an athlete on the free throw line

and you think of someone about to compete in a race or about to sing. You're doing something that's very physically taxing, but you have to get to a place where that is the only thing that you're doing. You can't be doing a bunch of other things at the same time. Yeah, always a process, I suppose. I guess the most free flowing conversations,

other ones where I forget, almost forget that the recording device is on. Yeah, and when you watch post game interviews, they're like, oh, I wasn't thinking about it. They're like, what was going through your head when you did X? And the answer is almost invariably nothing. I wasn't thinking about it, it just happened. And with writing, the weird thing about writing is you sit down and where does it come from. It is obviously from you, but somehow you just know.

It just happens. Tony Morrison calls it making contact. And she talked a lot about in the morning, how do you set up your life to make contact? And for her, she was talking about how she could only make, she, she found that she best made contact before she heard the word mom. So that meant like getting up very early, right? She would like to watch the sun come up while she was working. And then the first time she was like, Mom, maybe, you know, whatever, that it was like over.

So that was like her window. And so you got to think about what that is for you. And I mean, ideally you can sort of get it on demand. And I think you can get a lot of it on demand. But I do try to set up my life and my systems. And then when I'm doing something really hard, what are the kind of rituals or processes that allow you to get into that place?

I do wonder about that whenever I text you, because sometimes you'll reply right away, like right away, and we'll have a conversation. Other times it's like three days later. And I'm like, I'm not, you know, I don't push the issue, but I'm like, what is he doing right now? Well, I'm very excited about, I heard that Apple is rolling out,

like you can mark messages as unread. Oh, finally. Yes, thank you. Yes, applause. Because, finally. Yes, thank you. Yes, applause. Because, finally. Yeah, so I'm more of an email person for that reason. And so, like, the problem is I'm usually getting the text and then I'm like, but I'm in the middle of something

I have to do it. And then I just forget that it exists. Okay, good. I'm trying to, but I feel like, oh, well, if I don't answer, they're going to be like, oh, Jordan doesn't appreciate this. So it breaks focus every time. so I don't check it, so I turn the notifications off, which means,

at the end of the day, I'm like, oh, 49. Oh, my wife asking all these different questions about what to get from the store. You know, these important things are also not making it through. Yeah, that's a welcome advance, finally. I heard you sold more books than Marcus Aurelius, is that true? How many papyrus scrolls have you sold though? Probably not that many.

Only since book scan has been reporting in America and capturing roughly 80% of stuff. So it's like 50 BC. So yeah, so for the first 1800 years, but you could also argue that he had 1800 years to get up to the speed and then we're measuring at the same time. He sold like no e-books probably by now.

Well, I'm in a handful. None of his new stuff. And I narrate my own audio books, he does. That's true. So yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, you got him on that one. I noticed your tattoo's there. What's going on there?

I have obstacle, you go him on that one. I noticed your tattoos there. What's what's going on there? I have obstacle ego and stillness. Okay. And then I haven't done the four virtues for that series yet. I don't know why it just happened. That's all I got. There's a guy here that has an obstacle is the way. Is it you go as the enemy or obstacles away? Yeah, he's got the same tattoos. Nice. Although sure too. I'm fairly sure you need two reminders. What's your ego situation? But he does actually have that tattoo. I saw that and I was like, wow, you must be like, I mean, you he tattooed your book title on his body. That's got to feel good. A lot of, I mean, not the tattoo part that that's not their hand. Yeah, but in making that literal impression on people it is it's a it's weird I try not to think about it. I get that it's it's like odd

Not that you did it's we it's like I think the irony of A lot of creative professions dig your way out of this one You do you do something because like you want to be like seen or you want your work to be received sure and then Then it happens and then you're like, makes you uncomfortable. Yeah. Now I was kind of irony of like, you got to think you wanted and then you realized you didn't actually

maybe want that thing. For me, it's less, I didn't want it. Like I love the fact that I can, other people enjoy the stuff that I create. But I don't, I realize I spent so many years being like, and then I'll be a cool person and then When it happens you're like oh not that it's happened yet, but in theory Then you're like oh, I guess I love interacting with people and all this and I love the fact that it's impressed on so many people

But I'm like almost like blushing like oh geez. I don't require this So when I meet people when I lived in Hollywood I met a lot of people who thrived off that and they were never That healthy emotionally. Yes, I met a lot of people who thrived off that, and they were never that healthy emotionally. Yes. I know it's funny, but it's also like, oh, I'm so glad I don't have that. Well, yeah, I mean, one of the things I talked about in Ego's In Me is like, how do you cultivate a relationship with the work where in the Bacchewangita, they say like, you're entitled to the labor but not the

fruits of the labor. So how do you get to a place where that's extra, right, not why you do it? Because you can work really hard on something, do something that's really awesome, it can be ahead of its time or it can be swallowed up by news events or it can be bungled by a publisher or whatever. So you have to cultivate a place where that's not why you're doing, because it's a really unhealthy way to do it. And some people do it for that reason.

They want the attention, they want the adulation, they want the recognition. And I guess it's good if you get it, but there's no guarantee that you'll get it. And it can also be taken away, right? Whether you can cancel, or you can become irrelevant, or you can screw it up, or whatever it is, right? You wanna cultivate a relationship with the work,

or at least what I try to do, is I got this book coming out in September. And I'm like, I want it to be a success. I'm about to do the last round of edits, like, great. Do you have a title yet? Can we like, one bit or so? Yes, it's called, Discipline is Destiny. It's the second in this

four virtues series I'm doing. But like, the idea is, I'm not done yet. So I can't say it yet. But like, by the, there is this point where you finish, and then it goes to the printer or whatever, like, you can't touch it anymore. I have to, I have to be, it has to have succeeded or failed at that moment. Does that make sense? Like, I see. I would say like on my first book,

which came out, it's crazy to think, my first book, I was just thinking about this, is exactly 10 years old. And I would say with my first book, it was 10% satisfied with it intrinsically for what I did and 90% like are people gonna like it is the first book trust me online yeah yeah you know how many copies it it's sale that hit the bestseller list you know blah blah blah and I would I'm I'm

think or I would like to think that I'm closer to flipping that ratio but ideally you get to a place where you're totally self-contained the zen like sage place would be like, you do what you do and you don't even know how it does, right, like, it just is. That seems laughably far away for somebody who creates things, or for me, creating things, like I am always interested

in what people think up until, I wouldn't say it's under no healthy, it way, but it manned as it pushed the limit sometimes. But can it affect your mood or happiness? Very short periods of time, yeah, certainly. Not like for a day, but for like a few minutes, I'm like, well, that's a bunch of crap. And then I'm like, whatever,

it's some dude on the internet. On YouTube, especially, it's like nah. One of the, there used to be this set called novel rank, and you could like type in your name and it would tell you the, in real time, the Amazon rank of all your books in every country they were followed. That seems like a plan.

And it like some, for some reason it like closed like six or seven years ago and I would say that that it was one of the greatest moments of it. Now I can't check it and I couldn't think about it and then you realize like, oh, when you, when you, every time I've taken some step like in my system or my process, that's like insulated me a little bit more

from like real-time feedback or like hearing. Like I feel like the work has gotten better but also my happiness has gotten better. Yeah, that makes it, that's the equivalent for podcasters of like checking your Apple or Spotify rank all the time. Not that I do that, but if I did, it would definitely get old really fast. Yeah.

So what point in the book process do you get the tattoo? Like when you publish it after it becomes a bestseller, when does the tattoo happen? All of these I got before the book came out and then, ooo, staring. Because when it's like, no, we really get to use this title, sorry. All of these I got before the book came out and then staring. Because when it's like, no, we really can't use this title. Well, no, it is a bit of leverage with the publisher. It's on my body and I won't tell you where. So we have to use it.

Although, on the discipline book, I went through a bunch of different titles and this was the latest ever in the process that I've changed the title. And so like if I've gotten it earlier, that would have been, that would have been bad. But I usually try to build the book around the title. So I've known for a really long time what it's gonna be. But yeah, I've part of it would be, yeah, it's not, oh, it did well, I wanna get a tattoo of that.

Yeah, it's not. I'm trying to get a tattoo of that. Yeah, it's not. I'm trying to get a tattoo of something I feel like I need to be reminded of. That also happens to be a book down, which is why I don't have titles for my, or tattoos for my marketing books. That makes sense. It's like, what is he going to do if it doesn't become a bit like you put big bird over it or something? You're so packed into a corner at that point.

All right. There's a lot of people here, especially here in the United States, maybe in the West in general, or the whole world, whatever. They feel they need to exert some sense of control, and they feel like everything is falling apart. And we see that narrative allotting,

like clickbait, headlines, and things like that. Are you seeing this? What do you think about this? I mean, the world is falling apart. It's science and not great. I don't think anyone's like, this is how things should be going. But I'm not sure there's been many moments in history where that is the case, right?

Like where everything was operating as a chit. The history is a unending series of disasters and f*** ups and tragedies, right? So this is what sto is a misbuilt around. Epic Jesus is the first task of the philosopher is to separate things into the category of things you control, the category of things you don't control. And the latter category is much bigger than the first, like most things you don't control.

And yet what we spend an inordinate amount of time category is much bigger than the first, like most things you don't control. And yet what we spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on is what is not in our control. So I mean, it's a tempting thing, but it's ultimately a distraction and a waste of your research. So I'm always trying to sort of act like, you know, as this thing that I'm upset about, as this thing I'm worried about, as this thing I'm repeatedly checking,

is it a thing that's in my control? Which goes back to the, you know, about the creative work, like you don't control whether you get on the best service. You don't control how the algorithm surfaces your content, right? You control over a long enough timeline. If you do good work, you know, I think generally you will be recognized for that work, but you control so work, you don't control the recognition for the work.

You know, you control if you're a good person, you don't control if people acknowledge that, right? You can do the right thing, you don't control whether it's contagious in any way. So I think as the world is falling apart, it's not that you turn away from the world, but you try to zoom in your focus ultimately to that circle of things that are up to you. And then do you respond with those, you've got these for it, well, not you,

but I guess stoicism has these four virtues, one of which you're writing about now. Yes, they're called the Carnover Chooses. They're Carnover Chooses and Stoicism, they're also the Carnover Chooses and Christianity. soicism, they're also the carnal virtues and Christianity. People think because they're also the sort of Catholic carnal virtues that it has a religious connotation,

like carnal, so are these the virtues from that carnal? Carnal comes from the Latin cardos, which means hinge. These are like pivotal things. This is like what the good life hangs on would be the implication. And yeah, the idea is, so the so-called say, you don't control what happens, you control how you respond to what happens. Right? I don't control that my flight was delayed.

I do control, you know, what I do with that time. I do control whether I lose my temper. You know, I control how I react to that. And the so-called say that you can always control with one of or perhaps some combination of those four virtues, which are courage, temperance, or self-discipline, justice, and wisdom. So you're gonna write about each one of those. That's a pretty good, I mean, they gave you a nice list.

They did, I've heard about it. I've done the first two and then on this week, I am starting to beginning like talking about going into the zone. I'm Start that I have in my calendar to start the process on what will be the third book. Wow I'm how many best sellers are you written so far? I'm gonna be that guy like sets you up for this thing and then everyone's like I I don't know I don't know exactly

I think I think it's what depends on how you count them. But let's say it's more than 10 books. And I think all of them have probably hit some list or another. Wow. I mean, we'll get into that. Yes. Thank you.

Finally, someone who's last night. What you did, all right. These people brought them. I heard you, you, well, how do you feel when a book hits the list? You know, I think the first time it was some, again, this, my point is that I cared about it a lot. The first time it didn't hit, my trust man mind didn't hit the New York Times list,

although it's old enough copies, and then it did hit the Wall Street Journalist. And it felt nice, I guess. It's like enough copies and then it did hit the Wall Street Journalist. And it felt nice, I guess. It's like a femoral. But like ultimately it's much more, all these things are much more a femoral than you think they are going to be. Like I remember I was mowing my lawn. So the obstacle is the way it came out in 2000, May of 2014.

And it didn't hit any of us. That's so long ago. I feel like I read that two years ago. Yeah, probably the pandemic is fucking all because of the survive. Unbelievable. Yeah, I have questions about that. That's so long ago that I almost don't believe you, but you would know. You'd be the authoritative person to that.

It was May 2014. Wow. And it didn't hit any list for five years or six years. Oh my gosh. But it sold quite well. and it didn't hit any list for five years or six or something. But it sold quite well. And so that was my, well, that was helpful in the sense that it decoupled sort of like critical or critical success

or recognition of success. And then the actual raw numbers of like people you're meeting. But again, a third thing would be like, is it good or not? There's plenty of things that sell well that are not good. Plenty of great things that never sell for a variety of reasons. But I remember when obstacle hit number one for the first time, which was like almost exactly on the anniversary of five or six years, I remember I was mowing my lawn when it happened. And it was

cool. My agent called me and I was like, oh, what happened? And he told me. And then you know, I mean, he still had to finish mowing my lawn. It's not like, yeah. There was no like parade, nothing to change. So you just sort of realize like, oh, it just is. And it's the point. Like you think it's going to be this thing.

And then it's not that thing. The problem is you can have two reactions to that kind of anti-climaticness, which is one, it can realize, oh, I was after this thing that no external thing is ever going to get me. And if that happens, then you've been given a wonderful gift and you have a certain newfound freedom

that can kind of only come from, you know, I imagine someone who's trying so hard to be a billionaire, Elon Musk, who wants to get people on Mars, like, it's going to happen, and then it's just like, oh, it's just another day, right? It just happens. It's not to say it's not an impressive accomplishment, but it never gets you what you think it's going to get you. So if you have that realization, like, you've been given a double success, the problem is what most people do, and I've done this also, is you go, like, let's say the first time I book it's a list,

you're like, ah, but it's not the New York Times. If I get New York Times, it's X, or if it hits number one, it's X, or you go, you win a Super Bowl, and you go, ah, but one time can be a fluke, you have to repeat, right? Kevin Durant wins all these titles with Golden State, and then he's like, ah, but but I have nobody thinks I earned it. I have to go do it somewhere.

So the problem is we think like more, even though once was not enough, it's like a drug. Once is not enough or once was just special enough, but then it disappeared quickly. And then you're chasing that drag and you think more of it's finally gonna get your dad to be proud of you or you to feel cool like you're saying or like you think it's going to be this thing but it's never going to happen because no external thing can fix or validate internally. That has to be a thing you give yourself.

I think this is where one of your Instagram videos I believe you can't change internal issues with external accomplishments. It's probably like a paraphrase from someone. I love that because I feel like most of it, well, I shouldn't speak for other people. So many people I know, including myself, will try to change an internal issue with an external accomplishment. And it's so hard to get over that, Ed.

And the problem is it's a very powerful driver, right? Like, you can see how, especially in a capitalist society, we would be, that would be a powerful sort of motive force that makes the world go around, right? If people felt good after doing this one thing, it's probably an evolutionary force in some way, right? If you ate one time, and then you're like, I'm full forever, like you would die, The insatiability of the human species is probably responsible for all our great art and accomplishments and inventions.

Why we don't stop and go, hey, life in ancient Greece, that's good enough, right? Like it's why we don't settle. And it makes sense collectively, but individually, it is also a recipe for misery. So you have to figure out this way to go like, how can I do what I do from a place of fullness that's motivated by like, I genuinely love it.

I'm genuinely trying to express this thing. I am having fun while I'm doing it. And not, I will feel good when X happens, right? Or like, you ever talked to someone and they have a number like an arbitrary number. Yeah, they're like, we'll be good. And the number is always like absurd.

It's always like $20 million or whatever. And it's like you guarantee if you get $20 million, it will first off the number will immediately change to another one. And it will be anti-climactic. And like literally every person who's ever achieved something has said, you know, like it wasn't as magical as I thought it was going to be. Lymphians talk about this a lot.

They get the gold and then they're super depressed after this or any metal for them. Yeah, and but it's kind of might just be one of those things that you kind of have to learn by experience. But the idea is, do you, does it take five super bowls for you to get it, or can you pick it up after winning a scholarship to play in cops? The earlier you earn it, I think the more balanced and normal you can be as a human being, even if you're talented and ambitious and trying to do stuff.

How many more million more books do you think you need to sell to hire a landscaper? I don't know the answer to that question. I do like one of the blessings or the curse of success is cutting your own lawn. Are you really on there? No, that whether it gets you to a place of enoughness or not. And you can see how insatability would drive you You know, and there, whether it gets you to a place of enoughness or not,

and you can see how insatibility would drive you to certain heights, but then when you really study the lives of those people, it never feels like that success is particularly fun. Yeah, it's a little, in a way, it's kind of depressing because nothing's ever enough, but also that has to be liberating, because you realize, well, if nothing's ever enough,

then I can be satisfied with what I have. But it's so much easier if you just had a little more. Well, to me, the more interesting thing is, can you be great at what you do, or world class at what you do, and not do it from a place of emptiness, right? Like, in a way, like, oh oh, like why are you doing this? Well, I feel like a worthless human being, if I'm not doing X, like that in a way feels easier to me

than doing it from a like, no, I'm like a normal, well-adjusted person and I do what I do at a level that has impact. I've heard you say you cultivate a new identity each year. Did I get that right? I don't think so. No, okay. You talk about these new years habits and you cultivate like a new, well, maybe it's a new element of your identity. Not like you change your name. I don't know. I mean, I guess. I mean, you are, I think each, there is something special about the turn and over of a new year where you get to like sort of decide, you know, like, who you're going to be or what you're going to do. There's also something kind of sad that we like only in January though, like, yeah, if like I have a bad habit in June, I got six months. Five more months of meth. Yeah, exactly. You know, you do have the ability to do that anytime,

but there is something nice about the calendar turning over. Yeah. You mentioned like leave your running shoes where you can see it because if you cultivate this, I guess it's a habit in a way, but also if you're stepping over the running shoes, now you're violating the identity. You talk about Taylor Swift, right?

Who had mentioned she looked at herself and I'd like decided to make this big change. Oh, yeah, I remember right. The Taylor Swift Netflix documentary was actually very good, but she was talking about this sort of pattern. I think it was like an eating the sort of thing. She was saying she was like looking at a picture of herself

and she could feel the pattern starting, like the spiral that starts. And then she was talking about, she was like, no, I don't do that anymore. She had this, and I think this is sort of what kind of behavior therapy is rooted in, which is itself rooted in stosism. But the idea that we have patterns or loops

that we get into and recognizing what those are and deciding which of those you're going to continue to indulge in which of those you aren't. And like, I think, making that choice, I think, is realizing one, you have the power to make that choice. And just because you've done something for a long time, just because you always do something. Like, people do this often where they'll explain a certain behavior they do

as if it excuses that behavior. It's like, no, that's just an explanation. It's not a justification of it. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck for everyone around you. It's like, no, I'm anxious because my mom did X, Y, Z. That doesn't make it less crappy for your family to be around you. Recognizing those patterns and deciding which of those patterns are Connected to the person that you want to be I think is a very powerful and empowering idea So we cultivate habits identity to control we can control yeah, and we leave the rest up to fate. Yeah Yeah, the Stokes would say

and we leave the rest up to fate. Yeah, the Stokes would say, it's not that you leave it up to fate, but it's you're gonna focus on how you respond to that. We're trying to lead you into a more faulty here. You gotta make it easy. I see, I see. I see. Well, the Stokes say that it's not just even accepting

what's outside of your control, but like genuinely embracing what's outside of your control as an opportunity. When the Stokes say that the obstacle is the way, which is Marxist, is the impediment to action and dance is action, when it stands in the way, becomes the way. He's not just saying these sort of shoulders

and it is what it is. He's saying that, and he's also not saying like this thing that happened to you, is someone dying, you're getting fired, losing your leg in an accident, whatever. He's not, oh, it's wonderful, someone dying, you're getting fired, you know, losing your leg in an accident, whatever. He's not, oh, it's wonderful. I good for you. What he's saying is that thing presents to you if you accept it, which you have no choice but to do. You can choose not to accept it, but it doesn't change whether it happened or not. But when

you accept it for what it is and you embrace it and you say, within this is an opportunity to be excellent in some form or another, to be, to practice something, to be something, to do something. This is, that's what the obstacle is, that's ultimately what a morphotomy is, which is transits to a love of fate. So it's not even like, okay, but yes, this is what I was looking for, this is how I use it. And in meditations, Marx really says,

you know, a strong stomach that adjusts what it eats. And he says, a fire turns everything that is thrown into it into flame and brightness and heat. So the idea being that you cultivate this kind of will inside yourself that takes the things that happen to you and uses them to some positive end. It's not that it's wonderful that your mom died, but that it did happen.

And so what changes are you making in your life in response to what you learned or what you went through that makes you better for having gone through that thing? that makes you better for having gone through that thing. It's funny, I talk to lots of people and a good chunk of those people haven't been readers for a long time. They've just gotten back into it. And I always love hearing that and they tell me how they fall in love with reading. They're reading more than ever and I go, let me guess, you listen, audio books don't you? And it's true and almost invariably they listen to them on Audible. That's because Audible

offers an incredible selection of audio books across every genre from bestsellers and new releases to celebrity memoirs and of course ancient philosophy, all my books are available on audio, read by me for the most part. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app, you'll always find the best of what you love or something new to discover and as as an audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog, including the latest best sellers and new releases. You'll discover thousands of titles from popular favorites, exclusive new series, exciting new voices in audio. You can check out stillness is the key, the daily dad I just recorded. So that's up on audible now coming up on the 10 year anniversary of the obstacle

is the way audio books, so all those are available. And new members can try Audible for free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash daily stoke. A text daily stoke to 500-500. That's audible.com slash daily stoke. A text daily stoke to 500-500. I'm not sure if I'm gonna be able to do that. Some of those come later though, right?

Because like when I, some of you remember when I had to restart my show, some of you are newer and didn't see that. But me and my producer, Jason, who's here tonight, we weren't like, oh, great, we're not going to sleep for weeks. Professional career is probably dead in the water. This is, this is great. Yes. Let's, let's say for this.

But in retrospect, right, 2020 hindsight, probably the best thing that's ever happened to me. And I mean that, and I know people, like when people told me that though, I wanted to punch them in the throats. But it's funny though. So like, if that's where you're gonna end up, why are you torturing yourself now? Because you don't know that's the end of it.

But when is it not the case that, well, I don't know. There's almost nothing in your life that you look back to that happened and you're like, even the worst thing to like, but even though I didn't like it, even though it was awful, it still got me where I am now, which is like something I like and I'm proud of. And you realize that it's inseparable from, there's no way you could have gotten where you are now

without that thing happening, right? But that was also true at the moment, right? It's like, I forget where I heard this, but so I'm stealing it, but they were talking about like in time travel like every time travel movie they're like, you go back in time, you can't touch anything, right? Because it will change, but but then like in our own lives But then, like, in our own lives, where stuff happens, and we don't, we wish it was otherwise or resent it or we fight against it, as if it's not contributing to where we're ultimately going to end up in the future. I suppose that's sure, and that's comforting,

but it's all in the moment, it's just like, well, this still sucks though. Yeah, but I guess that's part of the, you gotta keep that coin in your body. But, and I think if you see it, it's not like, again, it's not this sort of rose colored glasses. It says like something bad happened. And you're just like, oh, it's wonderful.

It's that you have the power within you to change that thing into, or change yourself in response to that into someone you want to be, or someone who is better for having gone through that, right? It could have been the worst thing that happened to you. You're like, let's, all the things you were worried about when that moment happened. And I remember we were talking about this other thing.

Yeah, you sent me a book, actually. That's right. A book today sent you. Oh, man, it was, you know, I don't remember the title, but it was like, so many big drawings. No, we've read that thing over and over, but it was like a very small book with a bunch of, this sounds so dumb, with like pictures and drawings on it. And my wife and I were like, this is really helpful right now, and I can't for the life of me.

I literally don't know why I do your time. You said this helps me through a hard time. You just mailed it to me out of the blue. I was like, this is the nicest gift ever. Of course, that now it sound like everything's, all the things you were worried about happening. You could have insured that that was true right. It could have been the worst thing. It could have been the worst thing that happened to you. It could have been the end of your career. Those were choices you could have made right by not doing anything. Yeah. It's like it's like you could fail but you could also guarantee that you fail by putting right. It's like, it's like you could fail, but you could also guarantee that you fail by putting right so it's a Thankfully, I wasn't qualified to do anything else at all So so that helped actually well, I think we often also underestimate like

Like it's not like it magically the three days later was the best thing that happened now It's like eight months. It was made to be like, okay, this is not but it was a lot of work And and those those sort of gains were cumulative and then compounded, right? So it's it's also like We I think we underestimate the process to like it the book I'm about to start in my mind it feel like Way my schedule on the books works out. It's hard because like, I'm finishing one, and the other is just a vague idea in my head. And so that seems like a very unbridgeable gap.

And I went through this when I was writing this plan, because it was the same time roughly last year. And I was like, there's no way these books come together. I don't know if the characters are going to be, I don't think I have the material, I don't know if I'm qualified to do the book, I don't know if I wanted to, like,, I don't think I have the material, I don't know if I'm qualified to do the book, I don't know if I wanted to do it, like all these thoughts were running in my head because I was comparing it to the book that I just finished. And as I was going through my no cards, which as I do all my books and no such as I'm sort of going through them,

I found a no card that I'd written to myself and we can sort of send messages to ourselves in the future this way, I guess, but I was like, you will probably not think that this book is going to come together, but if you show up every day and do your no cards, the book will reveal itself. You wrote that in your notes for the book. And I said in June, when you go through your no cards.

Like, and I don't remember when I wrote it, but I wrote this note to myself that I needed like several months later, and it was true. It wasn't the next day, it magically came together. And there was really no point in which it just was all there. But a little bit started to come together and a little bit more started to come together.

And I did those things. And over time, eventually the process, there's a great writing, we're like, just a couple of crappy pages a day. A couple of crappy pages a day eventually got me to a rough draft, which I edit. And now it's there. And I have, when you, when you watch the process, like the sort of daily grind of work or work on a thing, pay off a few times, this is actually what success helps you with. It's not like, oh, I'm amazing and people love me. It's you're like, no, if I do these things, like stuff comes out the other side. And

having done this now, you know, at least 10 times, at least more or less trusts, like if I show up every day and I don't quit, I'll get something that's not embarrassingly bad. That's a low bar. Yeah. Low bars are helpful though. Yeah, I mean, people are like, I just wanna be like a supermodel or something. You just wanna be in amazing shape. And it's like, what if you just started eating healthier

and you just sort of saw what happened? I was talking with Kobe Bryant after our interview on the show. That's a nice name drop. Yeah, no, I know. I thought about not including that, but then it didn't make as much sense. Your friend, Kobe. Yeah, no, I know. I thought about not including that, but then it didn't make as much sense. Your friend, Covey.

Yeah, we go way back. Afterwards, we started talking about our kids and he actually really lit up. And it was basically his only focus after getting out this book that was about like a girl who played tennis in a magical land at Children's Book. And I was really impressed that one of the most famous athletes in the world was not prioritizing fame, not prioritizing money recognition, but instead was focused on his kids. And that's how you know you're on the right track. And you and I talk about this sometimes, but a lot of people, when I bring this up, they'll go, oh, well, he had the luxury,

right, of doing that because he already had fame, he already had money, he already had recognized. So all those things were satisfied, which doesn't make a lot of sense if it's a bottomless pit, right? Yeah, I think that might be backwards. I remember I read an interview right after, it was an article by a reporter that interviewed Kobe Bryant a bunch of times.

This was right after he died. And she was putting together some retrospective about the Lakers and she'd reached out to Kobe, she texted him so they knew each other well and I'm just like, hey, I'm doing this piece, can the Lakers and she'd reached out to Kobe, she texted him so they knew each other well and I'm just like, hey, I'm doing this piece, can I get like 20 minutes with you? You know, and this is a guy who has like a shoe brand, he has a book, it's all this stuff that like,

media is what drives, yeah, what drives it. And he texted back, he's like, no, I'm like, heads down, focus on my girls right now, like, hit me up in a couple weeks. And he had no idea that he had like, seven days left with them, right? And I, I, I, that's a haunting story,

but I think it's also a powerful story because like you don't know, like part of the reason we neglect things or people or ourselves is that, as the Stokes say, we, we, we assume we have unlimited amounts of time. It's not that life is short, it's that we waste it because we think we have a lot of it, right? And I think what as a parent, as a creative, as a person who's trying to do whatever it is you're

trying to do, the ability to say no to stuff, stuff that you want to do, stuff that other people think you should do, stuff that would be good or lucrative for you to do. It's hard. It's really hard. I have an email in my inbox that came earlier today for a significant amount of money to do a thing that I don't really want to do. And my instinct was immediately, like I don't want to do that, it doesn't sound fun. And I wrote no, and then I deleted it

and went back to unread and I was like, I can't send. There's aread it. And I was like, I'll send. Like, there's a part of my brain that was like, find a way to justify doing this stuff. But I know I need to say no to that thing. And the ability to say no to those things is like a super power. And it's a superpower because real, you know it's a superpower because really powerful people

are very bad at it. Like extremely bad at it. I go to, I speak it a lot of conferences and it's like, I know why I'm there. You're worth $7 billion. Why are you here? Right? Or like they need that applause. Yeah, I mean, after this product, it's hard to say, it's hard to say no to things. It's really hard to say no to things. And it's obviously harder earlier in your career.

It's hard depending on your socioeconomic. It's harder at different places for different people totally. But I once heard this quote about, with this observation by Sandra Dayo Connor, the Supreme Court justice, and wonderful female Aids was saying, was she so admired about Justice O'Connor was that she never said sorry before she said no. She just said no.

And she was like, I never met a woman who just said no. Because like the instinct was to please to feel like she had to do more than everyone else, right? Or she was just like, no, I don't want to do it. And that is really powerful and important. And I think when you have kids, one of the helpful exercises for me is realizing that when I say yes to things, I'm saying no to them.

Or I'm stealing that time from them. You write about that in the Daily Dad Newsletter, DailyDad.com that I subscribe to. And you write about that and many other things actually, but that has stuck with me because I'll be like, oh, I don't have anything else to do. Wait a minute, of course I have something else I could be doing. Yeah, you might have a career.

Lifetime obligation to this little person. Yeah. And then somebody asks you to do this thing that you don't want to do, but you say no, you won't say no, or you say maybe, and you just hope it'll like go away. Yeah. Then they're done that for sure. Or you're just, I think having kids also helped me, the pandemic too, but just be like better with boundaries.

Like I will do that, but I won't do any of that other stuff you're asking me to do. Like to just be able to really clearly say what you're comfortable with, not comfortable with, and own it, and not feel uncomfortable about it or awkward about it. It's not just like you deserve it, but like it will also make you better at whatever it is. It's funny you should say that because as I started cultivating those same types of things from reading the daily dead and the pandem and stuff you and I talk about during podcasts when you're kicking would be

Landscapers out of your bookshop. I have also realized that when other people say like, oh, hey, look, I can't. I'm like, don't even explain it. Yeah. 100% okay with it because the boundaries when you when you get your own, you realize that these are it one hard for other people to put forward, but so much more important than you ever imagined. So I don't bug people for most, I did bug you to do this, but whatever, that's the side for me. Because I knew you'd be great, but aside from that, I will never bug anybody

or like try and step over those boundaries for that reason. Yeah, and I heard from someone they told me like if you just say you have a rule, people were respected, I have a rule, people were respected. I have a rule I don't do live by casting some people would be like, oh, okay, that sounds serious. And so, Jordan Harbin, your show must have been pretty,

but pretty wearable. So, if you say you have a rule or make a rule like, but also, like, my wife, like, I really don't wanna do this. Like, how do I say no? And she's like, just say no. And then it's like, you're not weird for saying no to something you don't want to do. Yeah. You don't, the problem is when you're like, no, because that like, you give these reasons and then what you're really

doing is giving the person, you're telling the, if you just say no, like a can't, I won't or whatever. Or if you go, no, I'm just like really busy. They go, well, this won't take that much time. Or like they fight, what you're telling them is that you would like them to argue with you about why you should do it. When really, if you just own it, it also doesn't waste their time. That's true, although to be fair, you did say,

let me ask my wife and see what she says. You are fully setting up the whole, like if she doesn't want me to go, I'm not doing that. That sounds right. That sounds right. But hey, she probably happened to be like, I think that's one of the things that you realize is like,

oh, I will steal an unlimited amount of time myself. So you have to create boundaries or checks that, actually I was reading the new Judd Apertile book and he was, he interviewed Lynn, Manuel Miranda, and I didn't know this, but he had had a kid like two weeks before Hamilton started. Oh wow. And he was like,

it was actually the best thing that ever happened to me because he's like, I didn't go out a single night after Hamilton came out. So like we sometimes think like family like, oh, it holds you down. And it does. It holds you down to reality, right? So he wasn't out partying.

He wasn't flying all over. He wasn't doing every bit of press. He was like, no, after the show, because the show's at night, I have to go home, right? And I think one of the things that having a family or a more balanced personal life that you're not in this for mortgaging over to your work is it allows you some checks against that impulse to like, do an unlimited amount.

How do you teach your kids the stoic values? Or I'm sure you probably don't necessarily think about them that way when you're teaching your kids, but I assume they're not sitting back plowing through meditations by markets of release before nap time. No, they're, my oldest is six or almost six. So he's plowing through it, but the youngest ones are. Yeah, he's more into Minecraft and RoboTroll and things. Sounds about him.

No, I mean, I look the only way to teach your kids, and like, people are like, well, I want my kids to be Christian, so I take them to church every week. And it's like, well, what if you just like actually lived by biblical teaching thing? You know, that might have to be a more a stronger art than I can carry it away. Yeah, yeah. So like, like, ultimately, by example, no, thank you. If I want my kids to observe these ideas, I have to like actually model them, right? And that's the harder thing. The Jordan Harbinger Show brought to you by Hyundai Ionic 5.

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Two-way charging 300 mile range. The point is it's been a long journey. But worth it, evolve your journey. The fully electric Hyundai Ionic 5. Tell me about the harder they fall by Bud Schulberg. That book taught you something pretty important. Oh, yeah. for a one day, Ionic 5. Tell me about the harder they fall by Bud Schulberg. That book taught you something pretty important. Oh, yeah.

And if you want to think of it, then I will. No, no, it's one of my favorite novels. So he has two novels. He has a novel called What Makes Sammy Run, which I like a little bit more. And then the harder they fall is a sort of boxing novel that he wrote.

I read it when I was, well, it was funny. So I reread that book. You kind of have, you should always be very suspicious of the stories you tell yourself in your head because you're a pretty good liar. But I read, I would have, I thought that I read The Heart of the Fall, which is a novel about corrupt boxing, like an organized crime,

infiltrating boxing, and then it's like public relations guy who's like the main character, and he sort of corrupted by it and then he walks away from it. If you would ask me my own story earlier this year, I would have told you, I read that book, and that's why I left American Apparel to become a writer. And I reread it this year, and I pulled up Amazon to see when I bought it. And I worked in American Pro for like five or four more years or something.

We think that change happens in these sort of epiphanies or wake-up calls and it's almost always a lot more gradual. It's really been a long time too. Yes. And I didn't leave for all the same reasons that the character and the novel was reading, which is that we're really good at telling ourselves that one our work is really important. And then he has this line in the book he says, you know, I delude, I, he says, I, I told myself the lie that you can deal and filth and not become the thing you touch. And with American apparel quite quite literally, the case. No, but you tell yourself like, oh, like thinking about all the people that, you know,

work in this administration, and that administration, people that work in industries that they know, or evil, or corrupting, or strength, and they're like, well, I'm one of the good guys, or I'm steering it in the right direction. Or I'm the adults in the room. We are really good at lines for ourselves. There's an up and some clear line that says it's very hard to get someone to understand something when their salary depends on not understanding it. And so very often you have, you deep down know what's true, but then you have, you know, whatever your salary is, that many reasons to not take it seriously or make the, make the step that you obviously know you need to make. There's a lot I have on ego. I'm going to try and condense this down.

I know, I know you've done an entire, I mean, we've done it. Actually, you and I have done entire shows on this in the past, so I don't want it to all in too much, I guess, but my son, he's almost three, he's in the Y-phase right now, so it's like, oh man, I'm hungry, why? And it's like, oh, now, and then eventually you get to philosophy,

which is probably really good for you, actually. It's like your bag. I know this trips up tons of people, we can all think of examples, but if I say like, okay, fine, ego is the enemy, you ask me why? I don't have a succinct answer. You obviously do at this point.

Well, no, I mean, if I had a succinct answer, I would've been like, I guess you wouldn't have a whole book about. Yeah, that's true. People go like, tell me the book like in one sentence, and I go, if I could have done this in one sentence, I would say this a lot of trouble. What's your favorite episode?

Out of your 14-hundred high-end. I would have just done that. It would have been a lot easier. No, but I think first off, if you make it the same trouble for sure, then if you make a distinction between ego and confidence, which I think is important, confidence, I feel like, if something you earn, ego is something beyond confidence based on, you know, sort of nothing real. If you define ego as that sort of voice in your head and say, you're better than other people, the rules don't apply. It's different this time.

Everyone wants this from, you know, all the sort of self-aggrandizing, you know, sort of delusions of grandeur. I don't see the purpose that it serves, right? Ego is this thing, I found that gets between you and the thing that you wanna do. It's between you and other people, it's between you and reality, it's in between you and the work that you need to do, it's in between you and the truth that you're trying to tell,

it gets between you and the feedback you need to hear, right? So Ego is this thing that gets in the way. And when you sweep it away, you have this momentary connection with what you're doing, what you need to do, what's required. And then, of course, you make a little progress, and then ego comes back. So I see it as a sort of continual sweeping away or a reduction of ego.

But the second you think you have done it is like the most egotistical thought you have. The second you go, I am ego-free, ego has reintroduced itself. I think I don't know if you wrote this, being a know-it-all is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I love that, because that is the essence of entire theory. If you think you know everything that there is to know

is true for you, because you are not if you think you know everything that there is to know is True for you because you are not capable of learning anything else But you know you going back to Socrates what Socrates is wisdom is rooted in the fact that he knows nothing or that he knows that He doesn't know anything and what is the so-cratichethan? He goes around and asks people questions like Socrates wasn't wise because he went around and told told people the answer He went around because he asked, like, your son, why, why, why, why, why, and eventually discovered something in the process of doing that. How do you think, how do you think about people who expect you to be, there's a personal question, I suppose, they expect you to be one way because, because still with system, right? And I chose some choice Instagram quotes here.

I was gonna leave these out, but I just, I can't, because your wife will be very disappointed, I think. You wanna express your honest beliefs, right? You've got a lot of IG drama. I'm not gonna say these people's handles here, because it probably, I'm someone a little concerned about. Someone who looks, yeah. One guy said, this is after you gave a speech

about tearing down these Confederate statues. I'm sure you remember that post. Somebody said, why is after you gave a speech about tearing down these Confederate statues. I'm sure you remember that post. Somebody said, why choose to move somewhere and then start agitating for that place to change? Because you don't like something about your new home. You use social media and your platform to magnify your paternalism and amplify your shaming techniques. Live and let live, man.

And this is a guy that we both know, which I was surprised, but not surprised. Now I'll show you later. I'm not gonna put it on the live stream. This is one reason that I do check the comments less than I do. I used to do. Well, so one of the things that's weird, like when you have a platform is, do you have the platform or does the platform

have you that's a question I ask myself a lot and I think I know a lot of people where they sort of don't say what they think not because they're worried about being canceled as they worry they will cost them something and that doesn't seem to me to be a varied that doesn't seem to me to be a varied, that doesn't seem to me to be a successful place, right? Like, I write because I have things that I want to say, not because people have things that they want to hear, right? And so I have tried, I, and I generally try not to think about what other people are going to think when I am doing work. Because if you do, then you've, you've like sort of handed over your power. So yeah, like, I mean, first off, it doesn't seem strike me as unreasonable to live in a town and then be like, what is this monument to literally a monument to white supremacy and go, maybe that doesn't need to be here. And maybe just because it's been here for a while,

doesn't mean we have to keep paying to maintain it. That doesn't strike me as a crazy thought. So I felt good about obviously what I said, and then if it pisses some people off. The other thing that's funny is when you piss people off, they often, they're like, well, I'm not gonna be a fan anymore or whatever. And they don't realize that not only do you not care,

but maybe the reason that you said it was specifically to filter out said people. Like one of the weird things, it sort of hit me somewhat recently, I guess maybe surprisingly recently, but like as the platform, particularly Daily Sto, it grew and grew and grew. I realized that like people came to it for different reasons, right?

And like people heard about it because I did some weight lifters podcast. And now there's like these meatheads that are falling and then nothing wrong with meatheads. No, no, no, just don't unsubscribe. They came to it thinking it was one thing. Right. And I could continue to have them as fans

if I didn't disabuse them of that incorrect notion. Right? So they thought stoicism, for instance, was just, it would certainly be better for me financially and easier for me as a human being in the world who doesn't like people saying me and things to me, to only talk about the elements of stoicism that people like hearing about, right?

About individual resiliency, about productivity, about not having opinions about it would be easy to focus on just the sort of individualistic elements. But as it happens, one of the four virtues is justice, right? Like the Helen convenient. And when I write about the other things, and it turns out that it upsets the people who wanted the version of stoicism that made them a better sociopath, you know, like, that's just where we part ways.

And that's, it's not that I like that, but I, you can't, I can't, like, that's just what it is, right? That I can't pick and choose. Yeah, I could have spent the weekend. I did pick up some choice ones, but as I reread them, now I'm like, whoo, maybe not on the show. Like there's some bad, you know, bad ones.

What's weird is when you get crazy, like if you get crazy comments from some, like, anonymous thing and you're like, is it fun? The trolls, is a real person, is a robot. But then everyone's small, you'll get them from like people with like blue check marks. Yeah. Whoa, okay. But you know, it is what it is. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I say surprising, but also you're like, well, I kind of know that guy and it's not. But you do see a lot of, it just shows us how divided many people are in

many ways. But a lot of the stuff, man, they really do try to cut deep. I know that your wife actually noticed, because she'll, what did she say, the Jordan Harbinger is entered the chat, whatever. Oh, yes, yes, you're always there commenting, which I always say always there. Sometimes I'm in there. You're just sort of there with the popcorn to watch. Yes.

Yes. But tell me about the plague that infects your character, like literally in medical way, actually. So I think what I love about Aesthox is that they were real people writing real things in that real world that they live in, which is although very different from ours, not that different from ours. So obviously I intellectually understood, for instance, that Mark's realist was writing during a pandemic.

He lived during a pandemic. In fact, they named a pandemic after him. It was called the Antenine Plague. Sort of like how we called it the Spanish flu, even though it's from Kansas. Oh, yeah. Is there really only one so admitted that it existed? Well, no, we took it, like it started here and then we put a bunch of people on boats in the First World War and sent them over to Europe and they brought the play. They brought the 1918-1919 flu with them. But anyways, it's called the Antenine Play. It's almost his fault, but it happened when he was the Empress. It's called the Antenine Play.

And so I intellectually understood that some of meditations was written during a play. And then he may have even died of it. But it's not until pandemic happens in our lifetime that you realize, oh, he's not figuratively talking about the plague. He's also literally reacting to what a global pandemic would do to human beings. And it turns out like what it does to human beings is remarkably consistent. So the quote that struck me most during the pandemic, he said, is remarkably consistent. And so the quote that struck me most during the pandemic,

he said, there's two types of plagues. There's the plague that destroys your character. Or he says there's a plague that takes your life. And then he says there's another pestilence that can destroy your character. And the idea that I think maybe you know some of these people, I know people who, while they also got COVID, but they got something worse than COVID.

Right? And it's a long COVID and that they're not coming back from it anytime soon. Right? Like something happened in their brain, a flip or a virus got in there, and they're like not the same as they were a few years ago. And I think that's what Marcus was talking about

is that this thing happens, and does that thing make you more empathetic or less empathetic, more connected to reality and reason or less connected to reality and reason, more involved, civically, less involved, civically, more selfish, less selfish, right? And I think this point was that, obviously, you don't want to get physically sick, but this character virus is the thing to really be worried about. And it's been weird to watch people I know, people are fangirling stuff that happened to them, but it's just interesting to think that they were thinking about the same things that

we're thinking about. Yeah. When you're like, what happened, you know, we were just before we came here, we were just like, did you see what happened to so and so? And it's like, yeah, it can happen anyway. Lost soul, yeah, maybe now's a good time to talk about memento Mori, right? Because we're talking about death.

Tell me about that. Someone stole my memento Mori coin, by the way. Well, I would like to say they needed it more than me, but I think they were just kind of a prick. Let's see if I can do it. Let's see a little one. I think I can solve this problem. Yes. Hey, all right solve this problem. Yes.

Hey, all right. Thank you, man. It's also interesting to think, Marcus, you're paused off this coin, by the way. No, if you think about Marcus living in this play because millions of people in a time when, like, literally, they thought they could stop the play by burning incense.

That was like, that was the experience. They still have that. They're called essential oil diffusers and they're still for sale on Etsy. Well, the more things change, the more they say the same. That's right. Free shipping though. Yeah.

And it's part of an MLM, so you can sell it to other people. Yeah. No, he's watching this happen, right? And it's a reminder of his,. In fact, Marcus's last words, his dying ostensibly of the plague, or we believe to be of the plague, and his friends are crying. And he says, like, this is what happens.

And he's like, don't be sad about me. He said, think about the same thing happening to you. And the point is, we all died, but that doesn't mean we have to waste the present moment, right? And I think a big part of the stoic literature is about precisely that. How do you seize the moment in front of you? And thinking about your mortality is not morbid,

but it's actually very clarifying. The back of the coin says, you could leave life right now, let that determine what you do and say and think. And that's what momentum worry is about. And again, if Mark has really had to remind himself in this, when you literally could die at any moment of like cutting your finger and getting infected, like the idea that we wouldn't need that reminder

when our average life expectancy would stun people living in the ancient world, to me, it's extra important that we have this practice. Thinking about it for yourself makes a lot of sense. What about thinking about it for other people in your life? I mean, people you love, not people you actually go around and like, hey, by the way, you could die in the moment. It's, it's a, it's a, it's, but one of the most haunting passages in meditations is Mark's realises as you

tuck your child in it. Yeah, you don't tell them, but you tell yourself that they could go at any moment. And it's, it's extremely hard to do. And the fact that it's hard to do, I think, is part of it. The idea is not to touchment. The idea is presence, right? You know, your kids are like, hey, can we read one more book? And you're like, no, I gotta go. You don't have to go.

You don't have to go. And there will come a time in your life. Hopefully just because they're a little bit older, but it could be for more tragic reasons when you would give literally anything for the opportunity to do that one more time. And you have it now, and you're rushing through it because you're streaming something, or because you left your phone in the other room. I mean, it's game five, but I get it.

Yes. So this moment you have, you haven't now for sure, and yet you rush through it. And I think what the Stokes would say, then this is the most powerful part of it. The Stokes would say is that what you're Russian from is life. Simon could say, don't think of death as something in the future, but think of death as something that's happening now.

That the time that passes belongs to death, which I think is a really powerful perception shift. That death isn't this thing that happens once, hopefully, when you're 86 years old, death happened every day of those 86 years. Because once time passes, it's dead. And the person that you were in that moment is dead. And nothing can revive it. And nothing can get more of it. All you have is that present moment. How do you choose to spend it? That's what matters.

Well time flies during a great conversation, my friend. Thank you for making this trip. Special thanks to Hyundai for sponsoring the show and making this happen. And thank you all for coming out. Amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoke Store. You can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend. The Ops goes the way. You go as the enemy. Still, this is the key. The leather bound edition of the Daily Stoke. we have them all in the daily stoke store which

you can check out at store.dailystoke.com Hey, prime members. You can listen to the Daily Stoic early and ad free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon music app today, or you can listen early and ad free with Wondery Plus in Apple podcasts. Is this thing all? Check one, two, one, two. Hey y'all, I'm Kiki Palmer. I'm an actress, a singer, an entrepreneur, and a Virgo. I'm just the name of you. Now I've held so many occupations over the years that my fans lovingly nicknamed me Kiki Kiki Pabag Palmer.

And trust me, I keep a bag, love. But if you ask me, I'm just getting started. And there's so much I still want to do. So I decided I want to be a podcast host. I'm proud to introduce you to the Baby Mrs. Kiki Palmer podcast. I'm putting my friends, family, and some of the dopest experts in the hot seat to ask them the questions that have been burning in my mind. What will former child stars be if they weren't actors?

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