The Daily Stoic - Ryan Holiday And Robert Greene Talk Strategy And Philosophy For Turbulent Times

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

In anticipation of their upcoming live discussion series, Ryan and Robert sat down to discuss where their ideas and interests converge. This casual conversation is a small offering of the type of discourse that they will be presenting in their discussion series: Strategy And Philosophy For Turbulent Times in Los Angeles on September 19, and Seattle on September 21. There are a limited number of VIP meet-and-greet tickets available, so grab yours before they sell out!✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic podcast. On Sundays, we take a deeper dive into these ancient topics with excerpts from the Stoic texts, audiobooks that you like here recommend here at Daily Stoic, and other long form wisdom that you can chew on on this relaxing weekend. We hope this helps shape your understanding of this philosophy and most importantly that you're able to apply it to your actual life. Thank you for listening. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to a weekend episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast. I am recording this from my closet in Texas, not at the office today. And although I am in Texas now, the episode I am bringing you came from Los Angeles where I

just spent the last month or so with my family, saw some relatives, saw some old friends, kids went to summer camp when he escaped the heat. It was an awesome trip, got a lot of editing and writing done. But most importantly, I got to drive over and see one of my favorite people in the entire world, someone who's changed my life in so many ways, the one and only Robert Green, brought back some memories that used to drive over to Robert Green's house when I lived in Los Angeles many years ago, and I'd picking up a book or dropping off a book or some papers, something he had me research or do, and then I might hopefully get a minute or two to ask him a couple questions, ask him for some

advice. And that's sort of what today's episode is. He and I sat down and talked for about 30 minutes, about stoicism, about philosophy, about mastery, about slowing down, some questions that were just on the top of my mind when we sat down on his back porch. But actually the reason I headed over there,

the reason we wanted to chat is that he and I are gonna be doing two live events together, September 19th in Los Angeles, September 21st in Seattle. You can see Robert Green and I on stage in conversation. You can ask us questions. There's some VIP tickets. If you want to, if you want to have a sign a book or whatever, come to the meet and greet. Anyways, always a treat to talk to Robert. We wanted to prep a little bit. We wanted to record some stuff for coming up for that. And I wanted to tell you that you can come and see us. You can grab the tickets. I'll link to it in today's show notes or you can just go to RyanHoliday.net slash tour. And I think the tickets are

through ticket masters. You can also just go to ticket master and search Ryan Holiday, Robert Green. That's the 19th of September in LA 21st of September in Seattle. You may have listened to the conversation I did with Guy Ross in San Francisco. That was supposed to be with Robert and then he got really sick. So we had to cancel and reschedule. We added this LA date. And then I wanted to do this little conversation. I'm bringing that to you now. I hope you enjoy and then I hope to do this little conversation. I'm bringing that to you now. I hope you enjoy. And then I hope to see you in Seattle and Los Angeles in September. And I'll just leave it to me and Robert talking in Los Angeles about a week ago.

Enjoy. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wonder E's podcast, Business Wars. And in our new season, two of the world's leading hotel brands, Hilton and Marriott, stare down family drama and financial disasters. Listen to Business Wars on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. podcast. I was thinking the most dog-lop power is always say less than necessary because of the discipline and the self-control and then also the indifferent, the indifference to what other people say or think like. So always saying less than necessary, not needing to prove someone else wrong,

not needing to explain yourself, just sort of being contained with who you are and not worrying about anything else. Yeah, that's part of it. There's also the law about never win through argument, that demonstrating your ideas and not arguing. The self-discipline ones with that

and despise the free lunch and in victory, no one to stop. I don't go past the market you aimed for. It feels like actually like almost all the laws of power are in some way rooted in some kind of self-discipline. Yeah. Yeah. And the idea that I think just Sena Kay said no one is fit to rule who's not first master of themselves. Like you first have to have power over you for you to be able to play the

game of power in some way. Yeah, I agree with that, but there's some that are a little bit more than others. But yeah, you can look at each one of them that way because the whole in the introduction I make it clear that the main laws to have power over yourself. And yeah, it doesn't matter if you are, there's a Senate guy, I think he was talking about Marius, the Roman gentleman said, Marius commanded armies, but ambition commanded Marius. So like if you're not ultimately in command of yourself,

your power over others or over the world will last very long. That's right. Yeah. I mean, look at Vladimir Putin, but we don't know really how long he's going to last. The game is playing, but he seemed to be someone of a mastery over himself. So cool and icy, but it's revealed that he doesn't. And it's kind of good he is undoing. Does having command over other people and over things for too long? Does it maybe even atrophy or command? It makes it harder to be in command of yourself? Well, it does in the sense of, oh, we were recording. Yeah, we could have done that. Oh, I would have been reminded of that. Yeah. Yeah, in the sense of, you know, your ability to make the right decisions depends on knowing

the situation kind of in a John Boyd sort of sense. And when you have power and it accumulates and time goes by, you start isolating yourself from that kind of utilute type situation. And you start listening to what other people are saying about you, you start getting become more inside your own little tower. And you have less access to the world into information. And your decision start to become

delusional to think is what's happening. Yeah, I think in the 33 Shrine of War you talk about how you have to take to reality like a spider in its web and the longer your powerful or important or people are telling you you're amazing, the harder it is to keep your grasp on reality because you don't know what's real because people are deceiving you and you're deceiving yourself. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, God, I love it when people call back my own book to me. I don't even remember what I said. Sounds good. Yeah. Um, you're, you your heightened sensitivity to your surroundings, well, the main law there is don't build fortresses. Yes, your heightened sensitivity to people

and to what's going on around you is your only salvation. And power creates this dynamic that genuinely tends to isolate you. And so, you know, in the consulting that I've done, the main thing that happens to people with power is it kind of sense that something isn't going right. Things aren't quite how they want them. Right, let me ask Robert maybe what could help. And then I try and give them advice,

but they don't want to listen because it's not just that other people doing it, but they're getting enclosed in a certain way of thinking and doing things. So they're not open to learning anymore. They don't have that kind of humility, that kind of secratic idea that I don't know what I know. So, in each step of the way, you have to kind of step back and say, am I really connecting to what's going

on around me or am I giving into the version that people are feeling that my desire to kind of coloring things? And that ability to step back is so difficult when you're on that drug of attention. Well, yeah, you think about prudent in the long table that he sits at. That's like a, that is an effort. A fortress isn't necessarily around you. It could be, you're inside, but the fortress is the

distance between you and the other people or the you and the unpleasant facts on the ground. Yeah, I mean it's not like an overnight thing, it's not like he suddenly became isolated, it was probably a process of building up, yeah, of having so many, kind of creating so many enemies and having paranoia and fear about the loyalty of those around him and some small levels of betrayal and anxiety. And then that kind of, it can happen to you, it happens to me, it happens to all of us, we know that feeling, right, that kind of anxiety.

And so, you tend to see as to retreat inside of yourself and you're not even aware of it happening. I'm editing the book that I'm working on now and I've noticed this trend, it might be true for you also. is to retreat inside of yourself. And you're not even aware of it happening. I'm editing the book that I'm working on now, and I've noticed this trend. It might be true for you also. And I wonder how you think about it, which is each one of my books is getting longer than the last book.

And I can't tell me about it. So you're not at my level yet. We just think, God. Thank God. I don't know if I should survive. I certainly couldn't publish as much as I write if your books are like one of your books is like four of my books. I think so.

That's why I think so. No, I mean I think you're at a different level of mastery, but I guess what I'm saying is like because I'm comparing it against my own books, not other people's books. But it's either I'm getting better in the sense that I'm being, I'm being more accurate, more nuanced, you know, capturing everything, or I'm getting more self-indulgent. So it could be either, it could be the fortress around myself like, because I've been successful, because the editor of the publisher will let me do what I want, because I think I know what the audience wants

I'm getting more and more long-winded or Actually, my standards are getting higher and that tension is something I think about It's that's very important, but the answer is you'll never know the answer inside your head The answer will be the reader The world the world will judge that shirt so Because if you we get self-indulgent, and the book reads kind of long, I mean, that's, but you, that's not gonna happen to you,

because you've acquired the skill of reading your own work and sensing things that aren't necessary. And, you know, that's what I've been doing the last month. I had to cut like 10,000 work, which was so painful, but I was worst. I was trying to tell myself the fact that it's painful and I'm doing it is a very positive sign. And but sometimes you cut and you make things worse.

True, because you give a certain kind of galiveness to what you've worried about. That's what we're worried about. You have ideas, but they're not backed up, they're not defended, they're not illustrated. And you leave the reader going, that's interesting, ideas, but they're not backed up, they're not defended, they're not illustrated, and you leave the reader going, that's interesting, but I don't understand it, and a sentence extra would kind of explain it.

Well, it assumes facts, not an evidence. Uh-huh. Yeah. That's what I'm worried about that. I'd rather someone say he repeats himself a little too much than he didn't make the case. Yeah. You know, editors and publishers think they go crazy over repetition. They don't understand.

Readers don't care. Most people don't read an entire book in a day. They read it over the course of 10 days a month, two months. They're not noticing that, yeah, there can be things that are repeating. But as long as sometimes the repetition is nuanced, it's different. It's not repeating the same thing. I don't know.

Uh, no. Yeah, it's a, but even like probably a self-indulgent long-winded person is never considering whether they're self-indulgent or long-winded. So even thinking about it is probably a good sign. Please tell us how we're going to do this. Exactly. You're aware of the problem, potential problem.

You know, like, this is going to sound ego, and ego is the enemy. But, you know, human nature is 580 pages, and the laws of powers like 420 I think. The loss of the miniature has sold better than the 48 loss of power in the same amount of time. Really? Yeah. Over 800,000 at this point. That's incredible.

And it's a 580 page. Of course a lot of it's a radio. Over a lot less sexy topic. Yeah. Which is probably even more of a sign that it's like to be able to move almost a million copies of a book that doesn't necessarily tell people what they want to hear. It's a different feat. Exactly. Of course, it's a little bit of a bias there because I built up an audience.

Sure. But still, you have to get over this idea that, well, of course, a lot of people are getting an audio and they see, I don't know how many hours, it doesn't seem the same thing as 580 pages, but... Discipline and Stessony is the fastest selling of all my books, too, which is a very weird thing. Like, in most domains, you're, you peek and then you decline. What's cool about writing and I think that form of mastery is that it is one of the few professions that you can do for a

very long time and get better at it as you get older. Most things you get worse at. Like what? Sports? Science? I think in mastery don't you say like most scientists make their discoveries in their 20s? Yeah 20 20s and so on down the hill from there. Yeah. I think it's even before, not to get too controversial, but most scientists don't win Nobel prizes after they get married. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

This is so good for you and I. Yeah. But, yeah, and then you know musicians Yeah, usually they usually peak out of the yeah, how can you rate your best work layers? It's crazy. Yeah Well, who's best work would be that which is so many huge albums our bands first albums when they're so young They're not even at their peak musically, but they're at their peak They're not even at their peak musically, but they're at their peak expressively and emotionally.

Well, that's the power of music and that's why. I mean, there are composers, not rock stars, who get better with age, but. Yeah, that could be more of the market than the objective quality of the work. Yeah. I mean, personally, I could say that the 48 laws of power I was younger I was entered more energetic and I just spilled out of me and has that fist real appeal

and then I would say but as I got older I've kind of learned more yeah and I've kind of made more nuanced arguments now that could be me justifying my own aging and decreptitude and to put a little sauce on it or there could be some reality to it. You know, it's as I get older, I come to this idea of continually reminding myself that I don't know. I'm reading a fair amount of Plato lately and he's spending through my head a lot. But this idea of, you think you know something, but you really don't know at all your knowledge of an event or what you think the world is.

It's just like the, so I'm hitting the surface. And the mind doesn't read, you know, it's very hard to realize that. And so the humility of saying, I don't really know the answer here, and maybe I kind of miss the morgue or I've got a thing. I'm constantly going through it as I'm writing now. You know, that idea sounds exciting but it's not really true and re-examine it, re-examine it.

There's a John, there's a physicist John Wheeler. He's like, he's like, he's like the inventor. His line is, as the island of knowledge grows, so does the shoreline of ignorance. And so you're either understanding that you're learning more or you're understanding that you're bumping in to what you don't know. Those are simultaneous expansions. Yeah, I'm bumping into a lot of shoreline lately Well, and also I what I think ego fundamentally is is ego is like look how big the island is and then humility and wisdom is like Look out big the shoreline is and which one are you are you looking backwards at what you've learned? Are you looking forward how well you're bumping into that you don't know? Yeah? Yeah, exactly.

So you and I are going to be doing two talks in September. Are we? Yes. Yes, hopefully. OK. Keep one here in Los Angeles and one in Seattle. Yeah. Very exciting.

Actually, it's funny when we are trying to think of the, I think you and I were thinking of much more of a discussion and they were thinking, well, what are you going to tell people the, I think you and I were thinking of much more of a discussion and they were thinking, what are you going to tell people? But I think actually, if you think about things more as a discussion, you've learned more. Yeah, yeah. I like to keep things a little bit open-ended. And I've noticed myself that the times I think I understand how I had the most control I've written everything out and organized it. I do the worst jobs, but if I kind of keep my mind open in the moment and just we had a good time when we did that in Los Angeles before. You have me doing one here, are there LA live talks? I think? I'm ready to prepare for that. No, we didn't.

Not that we're not going to prepare or that we're just winging it, but it'll be September 19th in LA. And then it'll be September 21st in Seattle. Yeah. And I think we're talking power mastery, strategy, philosophy, all of ego, yes, all of the bucket of life. How do you get better at life? Yes. Yeah. So how do you get better at life? Yeah. So how do you get better at life, Ryan?

In actual fact, you ever ask you that in interviews? So you just spend all these years working on this. But tell me about it in a couple sentences, right? And I go, if I could do that, I just wouldn't have written the book. If I could have written one to two sentences that would explain everything I thought about this, I would have stopped there to two sentences that would explain everything I thought about this.

I would have stopped there. Right. How many? But fortunately you haven't. Fortunately or unfortunately. And then there is, there is also this sense that like years later after you finish, like that's what that book is about. Like I wrote, I wrote, you go as the enemy and I thought a lot about Ego and humility and only after

the book was out and published did the Aristotelian meme in the middle hit me which is confidence. So sometimes you, you have to sit and think and meditate on the thing for many, many years before you get it. So that's actually one of the things I'm trying to just generally go slower at everything that I do. It was really, really. Because it's easy for me to go fast. So instead of one you to write a book, you're going to take like 14 months.

Well, I read this interview with Joyce Carol Oates and she was saying when she finishes a novel, she puts it in a drawer for a year before she edits it. Oh! So she has just a year of... Wow. And that's interesting. And apparently Lincoln did this with the Gettysburg or with the Emancipation Proclamation. Like some people think he sat on it for political and strategic reasons, which he did, and that took a lot of discipline and patience.

But also he was messing with the language the whole time. You know, this is the part of the shoreline and the ocean and metaphor. So when I have that thought you go yeah that's interesting it's I like that idea but then the other part of me goes I'm not so sure about that. Like you write something you're in a mood you're in the spirit you have an idea kind of lives inside of you and you look at it a year later and you go what the hell was I thinking? Now that's not right. And you start messing your own mind up. That's true. In Zen, they call it putting a head on top of a head, right? So you're over thinking things.

Sure. And so I don't know if a year is the right thing, I would say maybe like a month. I'm just trying to give it more space. Although you actually, you told me this, my research methodology, which is you said you read a book, you mark all the pages up, but then you let it sit for a little bit before you go back through under your notes. Because then you come back and you're like,

I marked that, but I don't actually care about that. I don't actually agree with that. So the letting it sit. It's like when you put dishes in the sink and you tell yourself that you're letting it soak before you do the day before you put it in the dishwasher. You gotta let it soak. Yeah, oh, I'm definitely in favor of that and I'm definitely in favor of of so I write it now my extremely laborious boring process. It takes me four months to get to a first draft, which is where I'm at now, three months.

And now I'm going back to the original story in the chapter of I, well, that's really odd. So I'm giving myself a three month gap anyway, just by my horrifying process that I go through. And that's three months really make a difference. I think it's easy to hit, In some ways, it's to depend. Some people are perfectionist, and they need to cultivate the muscle and hitting the publish.

And then other people are eager and enthusiastic and passionate. And so they're impulses to hit publish. And they have to learn how to back off. And I think I'm more the second one. You've always been that way. I think so. Yeah. In school, I would always turn in the test to be like, are been that way? I think so. Yeah, in school I would always like turn into a test

to be like, are you sure you're done? Uh-huh. And then you would tell yourself that they would ask. They would be like, are you sure you're done? And then I'd get it back and I'd invariably made a bunch of sloppy mistakes. So you learn the hard way. It's not like your natural instinct.

Well, I didn't really, I'm still learning it, but I am trying to slow down. So this book I'm taking longer than I've taken on in India. Well, you know what the great enemy of any kind of work is? In a card or a bull grainy thing? It's anxiety. Sure. And the anxiety is, first of all, I've got a rush and figure out the answer here. I'm not going to take the time. I'm, my ego wants to get that book out there. I want the attention. I can't wait for it. And it spoils it and you have to like relax and you have to take the idea that the, you know, maybe if I give it a few more months, it's actually going to get better after,

yet that takes a lot of calming down. Yeah. Because your natural impulse is, I want people to read this. I need to get feedback. I want, you know, you want that, that kind of drug rush. Because writing is a very lonely business. It is, you know. Yeah, and like publishing as a journalist, you're constantly getting feedback. Social media are constantly getting feedback. But at book, you're working on this, you're on this book now like three years, four years. Three years. Yeah, so, and you've been thinking about it for longer than that. So people are asking you about it, but also there's some part of you that wants to know, am I right?

Is it good? Is it, am I doing a good job? And you don't know until people tell you. And so, to delay that gratification is the hard thing. It's very difficult. It's not natural. When we think of sports stories, we tend to think of tales of epic on the field glory. But the new podcast Sports Explains the World brings you some of the wildest and most surprising

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share stories that will redefine your understanding of sports and their impact on the world. Listen to Sports Explains the World, On the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, you can listen to sports explains the world early and add free on Wondery Plus. So Ryan and I are gonna be two events that I think you should consider coming to. It would be very exciting. I'm excited.

The first one is Tuesday, September 19, 2023. Let's get the year right. Is it wrong on there? No. At the Wilshire eBelt Theatre in Los Angeles, a very nice theater. I've been there. Oh, you have? Yeah. And then in Seattle, in Seattle, Robert, Green and I are going to be there on September 21st at the more theater, which I have not been to. I don't know that one. It's going to be us, live and conversation.

We're going to talk about books, philosophy, mastery, the ideas in your books, the ideas in my books, and then we're going to take questions. Yes. And we'll sign books and stuff like that. So, it should be fine. So, you're going to find the ocean bank. Yes. And you can buy tickets at ryanholiday.net slash tour. for that. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine.

So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. So, it should be fine. Yes. And you can buy tickets at RyanHoliday.net-slash-tour.

And you can also go to, let me make that, and that's such tour. Okay. Anyway, Ryan and I have known each other for 17 years, I think that's about right. That's crazy. I know. Yeah, I was, I was, it's getting close to, I would, I would, yeah, sack my life. I would do. I'm 36.

Oh. Yeah, I think I've been so close. So will I ever catch up? Will I ever be happy with my life? I guess so if you do them in. Well, not half my life I think it's just- So will I ever catch up? Will I ever be happy with that? I guess so if you do the math. Well, not half my life, but it's approaching the point where I've known you for longer than I've not known.

Like, I think I made you when I was 20. Is it right up the street? Um, the alto. That's where we met. I don't think so. That's where you told me you were researching for the 50th line you needed a research assistant. I thought we met with Neil Strauss when we had lunch with him in Tucker Max, and that was at a restaurant on sunset Boulevard.

I don't think so. I think it was at the Alchem. Really? Yeah. So I met you there before. I met you with Tucker and... No, no, I think Tucker was there, but I don't think I met you with Neil. So that was the second time with Neil. I don't think we've ever met together

with him. It was all riveting. Yes, I have a memory. Really? Of course, I've had brain damage, so who knows what's correct of us? At a restaurant on Sunset Boulevard, the Neil Strauss kind of,

because you know how he likes to find the perfect place that it was ever been to. And a restaurant, the weird restaurant, since it was dark, and I remember, walked outside and tucked it was there, and you and I started talking. That shows you how little I, you know, where my brain is up.

That's what I remember. But I think it's very unlikely that that would have happened and I would not have roomed. I think I'm not, I'm sure you had dinner with Neil, but I don't think I was there. What I do remember is I just got in a new cell phone. So you asked for myself, do you remember this part? I gave you my cell phone number, but I gave it to you wrong because I didn't have my new number fully memorized. I don't remember this at all. And then you called me to like offer me the job or something, but obviously I didn't answer, but someone else answered and they pretended to be me and they told you

I was like sick in my house in the hospital and I've been hit by and they strung you along for like a period of days About this thing and then finally you were like you ended up getting my number to someone else But I do think about one that's kind of a funny prank to do to a wrong number But second I also think it literally could have changed the archival entire life. Well, you'd probably be better off. You would have been better. I don't know about that. I'm fairly certain that that's not the case.

But I would love to meet the people that did this prank. You know, it's really sad, Ryan, that I don't remember any of this. But you do remember the meeting we didn't have with Neil Strauss. I have a very vivid memory of blocking down some simple of art and you kind of tagging along and then I started talking to you. No, I didn't meet Neil. I met Neil for the first time in 2011.

So that was much later. Maybe it was just lunch with Tucker and you weren't there. Yeah, I don't think I was there. Weird, very weird. Weird, okay. But we've only done one live event ever before, which is the one we did here in LA, like several years ago. Yeah, but we've done podcast and things.

We have a history of the... Well, I'm saying that the events we're doing on the 19th and the 21st and September in LA and Seattle, it's basically the first time we've ever done something like that. Or it's very rare that we do live events. You and I actually either that are open to the public and then we've basically never done them. Because of the LA live talk. Except the LA live talk.

If people can look that up, it was a lot of fun. Yes, we posted clips of it a bunch of times. They do very well. And so people can come. And then they can be, if you notice, a bunch of people ask this questions about it, and we answer a bunch of times, they do very well. And so people can come and then they can be, if you notice, a bunch of people ask this questions about it and we answer a bunch of questions, you can be the people in our hands and those questions and we got tickets. RyanHoliday.net-2-R.

Or ticket master. What is the Ebassal theater? Where is it? Ebassal. Ebassal. Ebassal. Ebassal. Ebassal.

Ebassal theater. It's an old theater. It's been around. It's on Wilshire Boulevard. It's got some atmosphere. There is. You sing it? Yeah. It's on 8th. 8th? Not Wilshire. 8th and Wilshire. Yeah, probably. I still live right there. We'll get hit the images though. I don't have good service on the port. Okay. Um, who did you see there? I see that they have plays. Oh, and we saw some theater there years ago. I can't remember. Just as I can't remember our first meeting at the hour. Yes, I would. So when I worked in Beverly Hills, I worked at Wilshire and Dohini. I would drive on six or Wilshire on all the way home and often drop things off at your house.

Like, you were working for Aaron, right? Yes, but then I would have to drop, you know, and you got, you know, you got me fired from that job. We talked about this, right? Because I had the 40-A-Law's of power on my desk, and the owner of the county agency was convinced I was plotting or up to no good. But was Aaron heavier back? He did, but then it was a long story. But it is interesting to me to think that that was a basic violation of the 40-A-Law's

power to have the 40-A-Law's power in a conspicuous place. That was a basic violation of the 48 laws power to have the 48 laws power in a conspicuous place That was a mistake, but then I went to American apparel where it was more acceptable Yeah, yeah, but then someone stole that copy off the desk and I Mad about it to the state because that was the first one that I read it had all my notes and stuff in it Oh, man, yeah, you could probably auction after like the Michael Jackson that one's worth a little bit more Yeah, you could probably auction that's like the Michael Jackson that one's worth a little bit more I would have loved to have bought that one. Oh, yeah, do you know who has it? I was on Suddeby, no, I don't I don't I would love to get my hands on it, but look if it hadn't been for me

You would you would have continued working at that agency and you might have become like a yes, of course No, it's a very good thing It's a very good thing that it happened okay and then it's a good thing that I just showed you insane amount of insecurity it is right so imagine being intimidated by a 20-year-old that that person isn't isn't in the head of an agency anymore? Probably not, no. I was interviewed a couple days ago by Penn, the work of the writer. Oh, yay, yay, sure. About I'm the most banned book in America right now. Wow.

Both because the 48 laws and prisons. Yeah, the federal prisons, mostly right. Yeah, yeah. No, there's some state prisons. And it's also you're one of them with shop lifted books. Yeah. So you're banned in the sense that a lot of booksters keep it behind the counter. Yeah. And libraries too. Yeah. But you know the idea that you

have to you think like a prisoner who's in an incredibly weak state. Sure. In mind physically has no freedom at all, that they're gonna be able to take a book. Yeah, it'd be so insatiure. And that they're gonna like use that to like take over the prisoner where we better keep that book out. Yeah.

It's kind of like your boss. Yeah. Yeah, no, the amount of the resistance is usually a sign of either the power that someone has that they don't want to give up or the precariousness of that power. Like, I'm writing about this with the Civil Rights Movement right now, but the sense that they, Southern politicians, were so resistant to black people just registering to vote was both a sign of what they controlled, but then also how fragile and

Illegal that hold on power was. Yeah, and so that's a sign Put someone really is against you doing a thing. You should question why that is Well, it's a sign of incredible weakness and insecurity Yeah, and oftentimes we think people are so powerful and in control when they ban a sensor Yeah, it's a sign of insane weakness and insecurity. Yeah, if you can't have a kid in Texas read a book about what it's like to be gay, what does that say about your sense of sexuality and gender? It says a lot. Yes.

It tells you. Yes. Things I don't even want to repeat here, but it says a lot. Yeah. Right. Things I don't even want to repeat here, but it says a lot. Yeah. Right. You're like, uh, and what is it? Yes.

And also, what does it say about the power of books that a book could do, that they believe that a book could do something like that, to, could change a person so fundamentally, um, tells you that the books are very, very power. They told me these two women interviewed me, that there is actually one book that's more banned than my own. It's like a cookbook about ramen. Why? Well, first of all, they don't want prisoners like cooking. Sure.

And then second of all, it's got some advice mixed in. I don't know, don't ask me what. And they also- You're gonna give my hands on this ramen book. They're also banning like fantasy books, like Harry Potter and things like that. Yeah. We I tried to feed it I can't feed you at why. It's interesting. Well, there's nothing to do with anything. No it's interesting. It's very interesting. I get notes from prisoners all the time. It's only a spare span. They're not banned, but, well, in a sense they are,

because all my books are still in hardcover, and you can't have hardcover books in most prisons. And that e-books in prisons is this whole, it's a privatized scam, where they're like, they're like, $900 a book, you know, they don't even have the book on there. But it's extremely, it's also just a way,

they've subcontracted it out to a third party. It makes tons of money fleecing the prisoners. So, but even on the device that they get, there's only a limited number of books they can get. Like they won't be able to get the 48 miles of power. Well, you can't have hard cover books in prison because they can take the cover and turn it into either a sex toy or a weapon.

Wow. Like my dad worked in Jail when I was a kid. He was a police officer. Every time you get promoted, you have to go back to working in the jail. And he would bring home these books that had all the covers with Duff when I was a kid. And I would need those books. Wow. That's a great story. Yeah.

Yeah. The other thing is though, you can't get email with digital, you only allow like one page that you can receive on a digital email and an attachment. So people can't email, they couldn't email your book to a prisoner. Right. Interesting.

Yeah, it's both cool and a little weird to get an email or a letter from a prisoner. What are they saying? Oh, it's, you know, it's all when it's... I'm sure your book's probably immensely helpful to people. The obstacle is the way it is, the big one, that would be the most.

Yeah. They tend to be like, I tend to hear most from white collar criminals. Oh. Who are, because they're like, they're like, you know know they went down a bad path or whatever and now they're trying to turn it's usually like drug addiction or they were living outside their means and then they found a shortcut and then

they hit rock bottom and now they're trying to get their life back. Very interesting. Yeah. Yours are a little darker. Yours are like yeah. I'm trying to get to the head of this prison game and your book is very helpful. Well, that doesn't happen so much. It's more like, you know, I'm 22 years old. I mean, for my first offense, this world is so intimidating and weird and I have no idea.

And your book really helped me like gain some self-control and kind of see through people and like, know who you're dealing with that law, who's your ally, who's your friend, work as a friend, actresses spy. Oh, that person's doing that on me. Sure, kind of thing. I once had an email from someone saying that they kind of used it to help take over one block in the prison. It's also, I mean, I like the idea of having written

something that's intended obviously for a much more advanced audience. And then to have gotten it that like someone who's like, when you hear from something they're like, I'm in jail, I've literally never read a book in my life. And they're like, I really like true book. And I'm like, if I could get ancient philosophy interesting to that person, that's very hard to have done.

And that's, I'm excited to have reached that person more than some Ivy League college grad who knows all of us is already. Well, think of it this way, you know, in prison, you're you're literally confronting your physical confinement. Sure. But your mind isn't confined. Right. So up until recently, You know, in prison you're literally confronting your physical confinement. Sure. But your mind isn't confined. Right. So up until recently, the prison library was like a gateway to the world. It was to open your mind. You could travel anywhere you could think about anything. You could read about Aristotle and Socrates and about Machiavelli and all great stories. And you could read about biographies and about you know African American history etc.

Does that have some Malcolm X? Yes, that's what educated Malcolm X. He had never opened a book before. Malcolm little, he was a small-time hustler, embossed in a small-time hustler. He's in for a drug offense. It's a brutalizing system and he gets so depressed he starts going to the prison library and he completely educates himself there But the metaphor is that We're all kind of in a prison in the church and it sounds sort of stupid and cliche, but what I mean is

Our minds are actually being programmed as we have been here. Yes, our culture is programming us It's putting us in a box. These are the thoughts that you're supposed to have. This is how you're supposed to behave. And books are a way to get out of that to expand yourself, to give yourself true freedom. That is the power that a book like yours can have, like obstacle is the way. You're kind of trapped in this life, this way of thinking,

and your book frees them up. It's immensely powerful. It's very cool. Well, I hope everyone comes and sees us September 9th. Not everyone, because we don't have enough room. Just until it sells out, but September 19th, in Los Angeles, September 21st in Seattle, you can buy tickets to come see Robert Green

and I live in conversation doing some version of this, you can buy tickets at Ryan Holiday.net. Anything you want to tell people about coming? No, I think you want to tell people about coming. Definitely come. You can buy tickets to come, have books signed, and ask us questions after. Yes, that's right. People in the audience can ask questions, and we're probably not going to do very many more of these.

So, these are... We don't know. But I was just saying like these are the only two dates that we have So these are it's a rare chance to come see And I see people flying from other countries to see this yes, yeah And that should be exciting. Yeah, she'd be very excited. I'm looking forward to it They too well, I'll see you in September. Okay, see you then. Everyone in September. All right. RyanHoly.net slash tour. Okay, very good.

Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoke Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoke Store. You can get them personalized. You can get them sent to a friend. The app goes away. You go as the enemy. Stillness is the key. The leatherbound edition of the Daily stoke store, you can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend, the ops goes the way, you go as the enemy, still in this is the key, the leather bound addition of the daily stoke, we have them all in the daily stoke store, which you can check out at store.dailystoke.com. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to the Daily Stoic Early and Add Free on Amazon Music, download the Amazon

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