The Daily Stoic - Ryan Holiday on Practicing Stoicism for Personal and Professional Balance | The Jordan Harbinger Show

Episode Date: January 15, 2025

How can practicing Stoicism help us balance career success with personal fulfillment? Tune in to hear Ryan Holiday on The Jordan Harbinger Show as he shares his insights on balancing professional ambition with parenting responsibilities, the illusion of success, and how to apply Stoicism in everyday decision-making.🎙️ Listen to Ryan interviewing Jordan Harbinger: The Price of Integrity | Jordan Harbinger - Apple Podcasts and SpotifyWhat We Can Learn From The Rich And Famous | Jordan Harbinger - Apple Podcasts and SpotifyListen to Ryan’s previous interviews on The Jordan Harbinger Show: 45: Ryan Holiday | Solving for What You Really Want from Life271: Ryan Holiday | Stillness Is the Key740: Ryan Holiday | Discipline is Destiny (Live from Los Angeles)Connect with Jordan on Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok: @JordanHarbinger📱 Follow The Daily Stoic Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dailystoicpodcast🎥 Watch top moments from The Daily Stoic Podcast on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@dailystoicpodcast✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. When I travel with my family, I almost always stay in an Airbnb. I want my kids to have their own room. I want my wife and I to have a little privacy. You know, maybe we'll cook or at the very least we'll use a refrigerator. Sometimes I'm bringing my in-laws around with me or I need an extra room just to write in. Airbnbs give you the flavor of actually being in the place you are. I feel like I've lived in all these places that I've stayed for a week or two or even a night or two. There's flexibility in size and location. When you're searching you can

look at guest favorites or even find like historical or really coolest things. It's my choice when we're traveling as a family. Some of my favorite memories are in Airbnb's we've stayed at. I've recorded episodes of a podcast in Airbnb. I've written books. One of the very first Airbnbs I ever stayed in was in Santa Barbara, California while I was finishing up what was my first book,

Trust Me I'm Lying. If you haven't checked it out, I highly recommend you check out Airbnb for your next trip. On January 5th, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid-flight, leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171 passengers. This heart-stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding

the aviation manufacturing giant, Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of damning scandals and deadly crashes that have chipped away at its once sterling reputation. At the center of it all, the 737 MAX, the latest season of business wars, explores how Boeing, once the gold standard of aviation engineering, descended into a nightmare of safety concerns and public mistrust. The decisions, denials, and devastating consequences bringing the Titan to its knees. And what if anything can save the company's reputation now?

Follow Business Wars on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Business Wars, The Unraveling of Boeing, early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. on Wondery Plots. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure,

fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are and also to find peace and wisdom in their lives. Hey, it's Ryan, welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic podcast. So last summer, actually right around the time right thing right now was coming out. Actually, I think the weekend before I went to New York to do the launch for the book, my good friend, Jordan Harbinger came out to the painted porch

and I had him on the Daily Stoke podcast. As it happens, I think Jordan was one of the first podcasts I've ever done. He's sort of an OG of the podcast base. I remember I did his podcast, it had a different name back then, but back in 2012 when Trust Me I'm Lying came out. So we've known each other a long time,

we've become friends over the years. I remember one time we were at this conference, I think it was Mastermind Talks, everyone sort of talking advice, blah, blah, blah. And Jordan raises his hand and says, hey, I have some advice for everyone here. Don't start a podcast. This is right sort of when the podcasting boom was starting.

He's like, it's hard work. It takes a lot of time. It's a difficult thing to be good at and you shouldn't just do it because everyone else is doing it. And actually for a long time, that's why there wasn't a Daily Stoke podcast because I took that advice very seriously.

And his point was like, don't just do another interview show where you're copying someone else. And I wrote an article about this afterwards where I was saying why I don't have a podcast and why I wasn't planning one. So it was only when the Daily Stoic email started to take off and built up an audience, first of a few thousand people and then a few

hundred thousand people, that we got word from a lot of people that were like, hey, I don't want another email. Can I listen to this? And so we built the Daily Stoke podcast very different way. It started with just me reading the daily emails and then as the feed grew bigger and bigger,

I wanted to be able to talk about Stoke philosophy with people. I liked people like Jordan. So then he interviewed me in the studio right after. So we basically had like one, two plus hour conversations that we sort of arbitrarily split. There was my episode and his episode. And I may actually have liked his episode better

because Jordan is a better interviewer than me. It's his main thing. It's what he does. I do these interviews as just an additional way to talk about these ideas. I learn a lot from doing it. It's an excuse for me to talk to people I wouldn't ordinarily sit down and spend a couple hours with.

And we had this space out in Basterds, so I built the studio. So that's why I do a podcast, but Jordan is like a pro at this. I mean, he's interviewed Malcolm Gladwell and Danny Trejo and Kobe and so many people over the years. And he's just really, really good at it. And I asked him,

hey, do you mind if I run that episode on this podcast? And he said, you know what, sure, that's awesome. So that's what this is. This is me on the Jordan Harbinger show. You can listen to anywhere you get your podcasts. I've been on it three or four times. I'll link to those other episodes as well.

Jordan is a Wall Street Lawyer Turn podcast host who's put in his many, many thousands of hours over the years interviewing awesome people. And in this episode, we talk about like, how do you grow something? How do you build an audience platform without being obsessed with metrics? How the hunt for success and attention can be indicative?

And then how do you get your hours in at something? How do you try to be great at something and still have a balanced personal and professional life? Jordan is a subscriber to The Daily Dad and he's always sending me nice messages about the emails. So I think he and I are on similar journeys there. And then as it happened, even though he came all the way out to Texas

to do the interview, I felt really bad because I was like, so where are you going after this? And he's like, I'm going into New York. And I was like, I'm going to New York. And we were not on the same flight, but we were on like almost back to back flights. So then we had breakfast like the next day in New York. And I was like, oh man, I could have saved you a trip. We should have just rented a studio here

and done the interview. But it worked out because you came out to the Paint a Porch studio, so you can watch videos of that in the Daily Stoke studio, my episode and his episode. If you don't listen to the Jordan Harbinger podcast, it's a good one to add to your Spotify or iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcast because he's always got awesome guests on there. Without further ado, here's me and Jordan Harbinger doing a round two on stoicism and

many other topics. Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show. How do you think it makes Alexander the Great feel? That Alexandria is still a city with hundreds of thousands of people in it, and he founded that city. It doesn't mean anything to him. You know what good it does them to be remembered?

Zero, they're dead. anything to him. You know what good it does them to be remembered? Zero. They're f**king dead. Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. On the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories, secrets and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you. Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional gold smuggler, real-life pirate, or music mogul. And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs.

These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults and more. That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show. Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started. Actually, he interviewed me right after I interviewed him and it was such a natural extension of our conversation that it's almost a sequel or maybe it was a prequel.

Memories a little fuzzy of our other conversation. So if you like conversations with Ryan Holiday and you like conversations with me Which theoretically it kind of must if you listen to this podcast you're gonna like this episode as well We talk about integrity comparison misinformation parenting and a whole lot more really It's just another conversation with a very smart guy and Ryan Holiday was there too now By the way also the the dead jokes never quit people. My kids are young. Get ready for decades of this. Also, I've got a little cold right now, as you can tell.

That is not present in the episode. So if you find this kind of like nasally voice that I have right now a little bit annoying, fear not, the rest of the conversation was recorded months ago when my voice was actually in decent condition. All right, here we go with Ryan Holiday. It's funny, I haven't used my iPad in such a long time Alright, here we go with Ryan Holiday.

It's funny, I haven't used my iPad in such a long time because my kids took it over, essentially. Yeah, yeah. And my wife was like, you want me to wipe it off? And I was like, you know what? Nah. Let the stuff stick all over it because then when I'm using it I'll be like, oh I miss my family and I'm gonna like it. There's like Cheerio mark on the space bar, there's a key missing. That's hilarious. And it's humbling, man, because you're like, this is where daddy creates his masterpieces. And they're like, look, I pried a key off with the fork.

And you're like, cool. Thanks. Was it you who told me that one of your kids picked up one of your books and was like, look, the Daily Butthole or something like that. Yeah, that's in the afterword of this book. Oh, it is. That's what my son said. That's right. The other day he goes, dad, what do you think the that's in the afterword of this book. That's what my son says. That's right. That's right, I heard that.

The other day he goes, dad, what do you think the worst book in the bookstore is? I mean, beside yours. Okay, that was good. I respect that. Yeah, shots fired. Man, how old was the kid who said that? This was like eight months ago.

It was not like... So, because the thing is you think about like, was that actually a joke or was he, does he just really regard my work as the crappiest thing in the whole story? I think they're, they like bullying me. I think they're, they're like testing and trying to see like how they can burn me for stuff.

Yeah. I go back and forth between both being hurt by it and finding it hilarious. Yeah, it seems like you shouldn't find it hurtful because you are their, like they don't mean it, mean it. Yes. It's probably a mark of social intelligence that they are trying to rip you down to shreds.

Well, yeah, and the idea that he would ask it in such a way that would get me, he had me interested in the question just to stick the knife in. I respect that level. And then it was like, you know the books paid for this house man let's let's chill out hadn't thought that far ahead you know I think it's quite funny

like my son he's at the point where he's like making a mess is funny which I that's not yeah the humor I can share in cuz I'm like I've got to clean all this crap up yeah but he will often ask a question that's so innocent but so harsh like just so brute like a brutal observation question that's so innocent, but so harsh, like just so brutal, like a brutal observation that's framed in a way. It's all I can do to resist being like, go ask mommy that question. Because I'm like, okay, is this gonna hurt her feelings?

I don't wanna do that. But I feel like she should share in this particular bit of misery. Yes, yeah, I tend to get the brunt of it, but I think that's like a two boys, girl mom. Whatever, that's the dynamic in our house. I get the most of it. My dad gets the most of it.

He'll be like, grandpa stinks. And he's like, you stink. So it immediately turns my dad into a six year old child, which is not, maybe not the best thing for my grandpa. No, it's the best. But it's like, you stink. And he's like, well, I'm not playing with you, grandpa. And he's like, well, I'm not playing with you. It's really, it's funny, but other times I'm like,

can you guys, can we not do this right now? It's really funny to watch your parents turn into kids while your kids are also being kids. And I'm like, I'm parenting both of you. I have to cook my kids something that he'll eat, right? And then my dad's like, I don't want this, I want pizza. I'm like, can you maybe behave like an adult for a second? You're 80 years old, for God's sake. That's amazing. You've been on the show so many times. It's like I don't want this I want pizza. I'm like, can you maybe behave like an adult for a second?

You're 80 years old for God's sake. That's amazing. You've been on the show so many times. How many you know? That's a good pop quiz. I bet it's like five times I bet it's way more than five. You might be right if you count my old show and the show It's probably like yeah, you might be twice that well I think you were one of the first podcasts that I ever did yeah, we've known each other at least 12 years I think that sounds right. Yeah, when was your first 2012? Okay, that makes sense cuz you were on for that Yeah, July of 2012 is when my first book came out. I remember one of the times was quite funny afterwards You go wow, that was like a real interview and I was like, what do you what do you mean?

And he's like well, you know, you might want to consider videotaping these. And I was like, oh, that's a good idea. I never thought about that. Because he was doing them on Skype. And he's like, you should do some sort of video. And I was like, oh, Skype video really stinks though. And you're like, yeah, but then you could see the person. I thought that was quite a nice compliment. It was like a real interview.

I was like, oh, what are you normally dealing with? Do you remember one time you were interviewing me and someone like broke into my office? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he used, to quote you, if I may, said, get the fuck out of here. And it was like, I'm just asking if I can landscape your, but you're like, this is, you just went into like an open,

I don't know, it was an open window or what? I mean, I didn't just scream, no, that's not what. We were doing an interview and it was remote. This is like the middle of the pandemic. We just set up in this space and it was remote. This is like the middle of the pandemic. We just set up in this space and someone was like knocking on the door and I ignored it cause I was in the middle of something.

And my office, this is where I was doing it upstairs. I heard them knock a couple more times and I ignored it. And at some point you're supposed to go away when no one answers. And then I hear them like enter the building which was not an open facility. I mean, it's like, it was not, everything was closed, it was the middle of the pandemic.

And not even the middle, very early in the pandemic, if I remember correctly. I hear what I think is someone stomping around. I hear enough, I'm like, okay, yeah, they entered the building. I look down, I see a landscaping truck, which I did not have landscapers. Yeah, you don't have a lawn.

Yeah, yeah. That's the weirdest thing about this. Yeah, yeah, there's no one. I'mers. Yeah, you don't have a lawn. Yeah, yeah. That's the weirdest thing about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no, I'm like, hey, can you hold on a second? It's still recording. Yeah. So I was like, hello? And you know, then they're like, hey, I'm the landscaper.

And I go, what? Yeah, it doesn't change. I've thought about that so many times since that happened cause it was so weird. Now I'm like, was that guy casing vacant property to steal stuff because you don't have a lawn. Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's like some weeds and stuff, maybe.

But I was like, yeah, I think that's what was happening. And then he thought it was, I was not, no one was there. And then when I answered, he kind of made up this flimsy excuse. Something about it, I was like, you know what? Like, get the fuck, so what? Because at some point, like we're separated by, we can't see each other,

and I don't know who this person is or what they brought. Like, so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna overreact here to make this go away. They did stomp away, but it was so, plus it was, we were like well into an interview, so I was, there was no one else here, so someone else usually would have run interference, but I don't know about you, but like,

when you get into something, it's like when you go to the movies and then you leave and it's gotten dark out, you're like, I was oblivious to the outside world, so I was in that space, and then there's just someone stomping around, it's very strange. It's very strange, yeah. But I think about that all the time.

At first I thought, gosh, this guy's really going to extra lengths, but who walks into a vacant building in Texas that has clearly got stuff in it. Like that seems like a really good way for unsolicited landscaping work on a commercial building It was yeah, you're right. That's uh, probably what was yeah, so that it's kind of funny And so that of course I'm reminded of that consistently when something weird like that ever happens I have to say like it's fun to be here at the painted porch doing this and this like Hallowed studio where you destroyed all these books. I know you kind of revere the the book is it was it weird? Like, it's fun to be here at the painted porch doing this in this like hallowed studio where you destroyed all these books.

I know you kind of revere the book. Was it weird? I mean, none of those are ever gonna be able to get read again. So, one I emailed my publisher, I was like, okay, I've been building out a studio. So I was like, please send me a couple copies of all of your books.

Oh, interesting. So they'll be in the shot. So, especially behind you, there's a lot of portfolio books there, I think some are here. And then there were books like, I had more than than one copy or I didn't like the book or somebody sent me the galley and then a copy and then the publicist. And then some of them are foreign translations of my books, which is this weird thing where

you write a book and then they're like, and here's 15 Mandarin copies. And you're like, what am I going to do with these? Yeah, I can't throw it away, but I don't know 15 people that wanna, not only do I not know 15 people who speak Mandarin, I don't know 15 people who would like a book from me and Mandarin. Oh yeah, it's a subset of a subset.

That's right. So I have a bunch of those. And then the rest, there's a company called Book by the Foot, and they sell books for movie sets, and art projects and whatever. So we calculated after we took all the ones we had, we were like, okay, we need 20 linear feet of books or whatever.

And then they just mail them to you. That's pretty cool. I wondered how you cut the edge piece. So for people that are not watching this, this is a studio where the whole wall is stacks of books glued to the wall and glued to each other and it looks really good. Did you go in the store? I haven't yet. I'll show you. We have the reason we did this is because in the bookstore, this is cool, but the bookstore has a big indoor fireplace. It's a building from the 1800s. So we did the whole fireplace and book so

it runs, it's like 22 feet tall. I assume you're never gonna use that because that sounds... It doesn't work. Okay. Let's line's not a Fahrenheit 451 situation. Let's line this fireplace with old paper. No, no, no. And this is not the inside of the fireplace, it's that. Of course. Yeah, even still. Yes. It's funny, because I was like,

oh, we should do another podcast. And whenever, I usually dictate text, because it's faster, but whenever it's you or other other friends, I'm like, I gotta fricking proofread this, because you got like 15 best sellers, 16 now maybe. I think this is my 16th book. Yeah, so I gotta make sure there's like

an Oxford comma in the right place, otherwise it's like, I didn't know Jordan was a moron. I would not notice if it was incorrect. I do appreciate that you dictate the text. You know what I hate? I hate voice memos. Voice memos. They're inconsiderate.

Of course. Yeah. It always screws up my thing, because I'll open it and be like, oh great, it's a voice text. I gotta inconsiderate. Of course. Yeah, it always screws up my thing cuz I'll see I'll open it Oh great. It's a voice. I gotta play this later Yeah, I'll play it later and then I never play it later and then because I'm with people I don't want to display your text in now watching a video at full volume like I got my air pods to listen to this thing No, thank you. Put it up to my ear at a table. The voice memo thing is there's probably a writing Corollary or there's a similar example with writing, I'm sure,

but if I have to write something, I have to clarify my thinking. Yes. Right, and I go, are you gonna be there tonight? Looking forward to seeing you. But if it's a voice memo, it's, hey man, oh what's up? Oh, sorry, I'm just getting in my car. Dude, it is so hot today, oh man.

And I'm gonna get like a smoothie or whatever, I'm with the kids. So, do you think, are you gonna go to Jimmy's thing tonight? And if you do, like, let me know, cause I might go kids. So, do you think, are you gonna go to Jimmy's thing tonight? And if you do, let me know, because I might go too, and if you don't, well, whatever, I'm going anyway. So I guess, and you're just like, this could have been one sentence.

What are you doing? I actually was just working on it yesterday in the book that I'm doing now. I have a chapter on writing to think, that you write to think right. Like at Amazon, you can't just call a meeting. To call a meeting, you have to submit a three page memo. Oh, wow. That's that everyone reads at the beginning of the

meeting. Oh, then the meeting is the discussion about the idea or the proposal or the whatever. And I was thinking about like, why they do that. And it's so you can't just like, wing it and halfheartedly think about it or have you actually have to think about what you think. And by definition, when you're writing, you have to think all the way through like to get to the period you have to think all the way through, you can't just start and figure out what like the act of thinking to

completion. That's so important. Yeah. Yeah, for people don't know that. So this table we're sitting at was Joan Didion's table and I have a line in the thing. She says writing is a hostile act because you're trying to persuade someone or worse force them to understand your thinking about something, right? And to do that you have to comprehend first what you are thinking. Yeah. And so there's something there's something about just winging it that is just never gonna be as it's rude not to take the time to do it. And so there's something about just winging it that is just never going to be as... It's rude not to take the time to do it. And look, if you're disabled or dyslexic

or something, totally different story, but there is something about the like, well, I'll just throw a bunch of shit at you and then you process it and then you come back to me. Even if you are though, you could still dictate it unless you can't talk, right? But in which case, why are you sending me a voicemail? or don't edit it and whatever if there's a wrong word in there and I can read between the lines fine it's the mumbling and the rambling where I'm like we're not on a phone call this is I can't even I'm not even spending time with you like if I'm on the phone with somebody and they're like oh I'm just getting in the car man it's so hot in Texas I'm like we're at least we're talking yes if you're just

talking at me it's the equivalent of a podcast where I'm like, hey, so what do you guys want to talk about? I don't know. Oh, you wrote a book, didn't you? That's cool. No, you don't handle a podcast like that. So now I'm a victim of your four-minute podcast that could have been one sentence. That's what a voice memo is.

It's unbelievable. You're in this weird place where people analyze everything you do through a lens of stoicism And it's a little bit. It's a little bit hard to watch sometimes like recently you were cleaning up like a dog carcass and Garbage that had just been thrown in a road yesterday You filmed because you were like hey I want to set an exam I assume because you're like I want to set an example of what it means to live a good life and

Encourage other people to do the same and people like why are you filming your virtues, bro? That's not stoic. That's not stoic, bro What do you think is happening there? I'm more Perplexed as to how the thing keeps happening. That's probably why I recorded the video. So I'll give you an example. I drove Driving my son home yesterday. We live on this dirt road. All the houses are on this dirt road and We have this shared dirt road, all the houses are on this dirt road. And we have this shared mailbox, like, you know, like a lot of mailboxes. Yeah, so you can't because they can't drive on the road. And so pull up and there's like 10 enormous black garbage bags of trash that someone had dumped since I had driven on the road this morning.

And I'm like, ah, yeah, it's disgusting. It's 100 degrees outside. And part of me is like, I should just, ah, it's disgusting. It's 100 degrees outside. And part of me is like, I should just, I didn't do this. This is a mile and a half from my house. So like, it's not like I'm gonna smell it, but I'm like, no one else is gonna take care of it. This is not a public road. I called my wife and I was like,

what kind of person drives their car to a place. I was trying to wrap my hand around getting out of the car, undoing the back of your truck or your trailer, and then picking this up and throwing it on the ground. First I felt like how scary that would be. We could get caught at any moment. But I was like, don't they know that there's a dumpster behind every business?

And it's illegal to do it here. It's also illegal to do it there. But like, I gotta figure the guy working behind the counter at the gas station cares a lot less. And then also it's less bad for it. Like, what are you doing? So anyways, I agree. I'm sure you use the word person.

I would have used a different word. Yeah, it's true. I sort of pick up this try, I threw in the thing, it was disgusting, there were maggots everywhere. And then I had to like, I only have one trash can. So I had to like stop this trash, I threw it in the thing, it was disgusting, there were maggots everywhere. And then I had to like, I only have one trash can, so I had to like stop at every neighbor's house, like on the way home, to give one bag, like in the thing, you know, I was like,

so I had to attach all this. You're gonna get, you're gonna, the police are gonna be like, we have footage of you dumping illegally. A couple years ago, someone had thrown a mattress, and so I'm in there loading this mattress in the back of my truck. And one of my neighbors pulls up and is like,

what are you doing? I go, bro, I've lived here way longer than you. Also, it's the middle of the day. Where were you when this was being dumped? But anyway, so I can't wrap my head around that. And more baffling is they tend to dump like dead animals. So that's kind of freaks me out a little bit. Deer carcasses or what, it's a lot of dead dogs.

And I can't figure out if it's a dog fighting ring or if it's a Do they not know you can bury things in your own yard or again? You can just throw it in a dumpster somewhere I guess like the deer thing is maybe hunting but the dead dog carcasses if you find one you're like, oh man That's someone's pet but when you find five dead dog I personally disposed of at least ten dead dogs that sounds like illegal activity and that's the only the ones that I was like this is fresh enough for me to do something about not like I just had to falling apart so so anyways I'm baffled by that but I was filming the video because I was trying to talk about this thing which is kind

of what the new book is about but when when I first moved there, and I think this is how I went through life, I'd be like, well, I hope someone takes care of this. Yeah, sure. I just hope someone takes care of this. I would call the police and be like, hey, I remember one time I was running right after this, one of these happened, and a police car was driving down my road, which never happens. This is a private road.

And so I flagged down the officer and I go, hey man, like, I don't know if you saw, but there's like, and he's like, it's weird, huh? You know, he's like baffled by it too. Not like, hey, I'm gonna like take care of this for you. But like, he's like, I wish they wouldn't put them in the bags because then it makes it harder for him to decompose.

He was just thinking about it like purely from a like, this is just how it goes. It would be better if it was more natural because it would go away faster. Yeah, I mean, okay. So I grew up where I lived and how I thought like, this is what government is for. This is like what the police are for

or the sanitation department is for, animal control is for. And one of the things you learn in Texas, I'm not saying it's good, I hate it about Texas, but you're just like, no, no, no, nobody gives a shit. Yeah, I was like, Oh, if I don't like this, and I don't like it, because when I have to drive by it, or I have to run by it, I have to smell it, it's awful. And then also, bad for the environment. I guess the dogs

are fine, but the trash, I was like, I have to take care of this, like, I have to pick this up and put in my truck and it's gonna stink. Like, I have to do it. Yeah. When we think of something like that happening, we think justice is like, well, I'm gonna call the police, they're gonna investigate the crime, they're gonna arrest the person in person, they're gonna be punished. And that is a version of legal justice for the situation. But there's also just the fact that the thing is there and it has to be result... Like, there's two ways ways this goes one is I drive by it every day and birds slowly tear the bags of trash apart and the trash spreads everywhere and then eventually leaves fall and it gets covered up or there's a version where I get disgustingly dirty picking this up and throwing it away and taking time out of my day and

I have to choose between which one of those I'm gonna live with. And that's what the video is about. And then, yeah, some people manage to get upset by this, which is always strange. That is strange. It is strange. I notice you're not in the comments as much on social media as in years past.

Is that, you write, like, the plague that infects your character. Is it related to that? I think so. I mean, it's weird. You're always in the comments on my things. So I mostly see the field to you. Yeah, I'm sort of like ashamed of that, but yeah. No, I think it's hilarious. But no, I realized it was making me,

it wasn't bringing out a good part of me. And then I was arguing with people that I was never going to convince. And it was also just making me less motivated to do good stuff in the world and Do good work because I was bumping up against the existence of these people who I'd prefer not to think about I agree No, I mean, yeah, I do I see a lot of hate now with the Israel stuff You just see people post like really gross stuff about one ethnic group or another. And I used to be like, explain this to me. Like, let me, and then you realize very quickly,

like this is not, it's either not a real person at all. That's a huge part of it. I think, I see people post these like, I can't believe someone said this. And it's like, I can't believe it either because a person did not say that that was a bot or it's artificial intelligence or it's a troll doing something,

saying the most extreme thing to get you to do this. I think that's really hard. And then also the people who are doing it, who are real, are in a way not real. You know what I mean? Like there's something broken in that person. It's not a level playing field. You're not gonna convince them.

Their whole point is to provoke, distract, or make you despair. That's right. And so I've tried to do a lot less of it. Sometimes I see them, so it's still getting me, but I'm at least not doubling down once I see it. On January 5th, 2024, an Alaska Airlines door plug tore away mid-flight, leaving a gaping hole in the side of a plane that carried 171 passengers. This heart-stopping incident was just the latest in a string of crises surrounding the aviation manufacturing giant, Boeing. In the past decade, Boeing has been involved in a series of

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Who knows? Your next great idea could be an accident that you burned. This is Nick. And this is Jack. And we'll see you on The Best Idea Yet. It's funny you mentioned that even the alive, living person is not a real person. Yeah. I've read this article years ago and I have no idea where it is. Maybe my producer can find it. But it was about how this woman who's a journalist,

she was looking at this really bad troll that was horrible online and it turned out to be like her husband. And she attracted, and she's like, but wait, my husband's not an angry guy who's, what is it, nihilistic or whatever and cynical. So what's going on? And it turned out that he just found it kind of cathartic

to be this horrendously terrible person that posted kind of some evil stuff and harassed people, not harassed to the point where he was going out of his way, but he would just be like, oh, I'm going to push that button. He just kind of got like a juvenile kick out of it and it got worse and worse and he was, she's like, you need to stop doing this. And he was just like, and we need to get a divorce. Right. No, but he's not being real.

Like he's acting. He is doing, he is playing a role, or a character that solves some deep psychosis in the person, of course. So what I mostly just do now is, I don't even have it on my phone, but I have the person who does our social media stuff, you can just shadow ban people.

And so it's like, I'm just going like, hey, they were letting me know they would like to be shadow banned. That's how I think about it. Scream into the void. Yeah, and then so they continue to post, but they just have no idea that they're not affecting anyone. Yeah, that's a good idea.

I see, it's just interesting to think that the person who posted something horrible about like Jews or Palestinians or African Americans is like the same guy or gal that is at the grocery store that's like, oh, I think you dropped your wallet, sir. And you're like, oh, thank you so much. That would have ruined my day. And they're like, yeah, no problem.

And you're like, that's the guy who secretly posted this thing and is like at my kids' soccer games and there's Jewish kids on the team and he doesn't have any real issue with them at all. It's just an online thing that gets him feeling powerful. It's kind of sick, actually. I had a weird experience. I can't talk too specifically about it

because I think it'll feed the thing. But there was someone where someone posted something very negative about me online, but in a way or at a place that I've seen it happen before. So before I would see it and I was like, oh, like this is the world not liking me. These are people telling me I suck and whatever. And then I saw it happen

in the same place. And I realized I knew the person that did it. And I was like, Oh, and I knew why they did it because we've had an interaction. And so I was like, Oh, so it's very clear, like this person was going through some stuff and decided to like, blow off some steam by encouraging people to shit on me. And realizing that, oh, that's what the other people are doing. I just don't know them or the story. That's interesting. And so it was like this weird, I was like, this is like this whole thing that only very loosely

has anything to do with me. And I have to just not let it in because it's toxic and dysfunctional and weird. But it was like this very weird experience where like you think of trolls and criticism and whatever that happens on the internet as being this sort of faceless big thing in a way, all these people and then realize like,

no, no, no, it's a very specific person acting for a very specific reason. Yeah, that's interesting. It was strange, but it's helped me in a weird way. I will say to people who are maybe tempted to engage in this kind of thing or respond to it in a way that's also extreme because that's how it escalates, right?

Someone responds to it and they're like, oh well now I have it out for you. I use my real name online and I do too. It makes things a lot easier because you go, oh this, I'm gonna let this person have it and then you're like, but then everybody who sees that is gonna be like Jordan Harbinger said this kind of awful thing to a person and that person, you know, their comment kind of deserved it, but shouldn't you be above that? Like, aren't you a guy who's above this kind of crap? And you go, yes, but if you're posting under your, like, pseudonym or whatever, then people will go,

you get away with it. So I sort of created accountability for myself in that respect. Yeah, no, I realized I was not. I was getting sucked into stuff. And even if I was winning the exchanges, I was losing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the plague that infects your character. Yeah, yeah, which is a thing.

So Mark Spreles in his meditations, he says basically there's two kinds of plagues. And he's writing in the middle of a plague, which I did not realize. It just sort of, I didn't understand until I went through a plague, as we all did. And he's saying, look, there's the part of the plague that kills your life that can kill you, which he may have ultimately succumbed to.

And he says, there's this other part that infects your character. And so all the things that we saw during COVID must have happened during the Antonine Plague. Also, the radicalization, the conspiracy theories, the callousness, the cruelty, just the catharsis of attacking people and persecuting people.

I think that's what he's talking about. What I came to understand when I would interact with some of these people, when I do something very innocuous, or say something very right down the middle of just like ordinary human behavior when millions of people are dying of something, people would freak out and I'd be like, oh, you're infected. Like you caught something. And I think you and I both saw people we know become very different people

as a result of what they went through. And so that ironically tied into the shadow banning thing because I would ban these people for saying horrible stuff or spreading misinformation or whatever. And then I would see them comment later on other things, like people I know, or on my accounts. And when you shadow ban someone or you ban someone on Instagram, when you're a verified account or whatever, it turns their thing gray and it says like restricted comment.

Oh, interesting. I was like, Oh, these are like infected people. It's like their label that I'm seeing that they're like an infected person. And I'm watching them go around and try to infect people with their awfulness or stupidity or deeply held but nonsensical belief. And oh, that's, and then the way- That is interesting you labeled them.

It'll be weird, like a couple of years, some of this has been going on for a long time. I'll notice them, post something, I don't know why, but I'll click it and it'll be like, like, a couple of years, some of this has been going on for a long time. I'll notice them, post something, I don't know why, but I'll click it, and it'll be like, love your stuff, you're doing great. And then I realize, oh, they were infected in this moment, and maybe they're better now. Yeah, hopefully.

It's a weird thing, and I do think we live in a time where it's very easy. You watch one thing, you talk to one thing, and then you just watch this process happen to someone, like a set of symptoms in an illness, and then the next watch this process happen to someone like a set of symptoms in an illness and then the next thing you know they're like broken brain situation. It's interesting because part of it is social media bringing people down rabbit holes and part of it is people getting way into social media during the pandemic because they couldn't

leave their house they had nothing better to do so that was like a part of a vicious cycle I think the other stuff is stuff that's been around for thousands of years when plagues hit, which is isolation, feeling of helplessness, desperately trying to regain a sense of control. And all of this ends up being, it can manifest itself in pretty horrible ways. Yeah, I was gonna write this thing, I didn't end up writing it, but I was gonna say like the oldest virus is antisemitism. And you can watch people get like infected with it. Like they watch a documentary or a book,

or they have an interaction, or they go to a certain university. It's a thing that has been infecting humans and societies. There are other of these similar kind of mind viruses, but like, that's just a thing. That specific virus has been infecting people's character for literally thousands of years. And it happens in different ways

and the different symptoms of it can manifest themselves differently in different societies. But it is weird that it's just this thing that's always been there. It is, and then people will use that to justify the antisemitism. Like, oh yeah, well, y'all have been kicked out 110 countries or 109 or whatever it is, I can't remember.

We've lost track of how many countries have been kicked out. And they'll go, yeah, it's been around for thousands, so it must have some shred of truth to it. And it's like, well, actually, we're still around. That's why this is still around, because Jews are still around. If we weren't around anymore, like, no one's complaining about ethnic groups that they exterminated a hundred century BC or whatever. No one's like, oh, those Babylonians. Yeah, no, humans have been doing awful things to each other for a very long time. But yeah, they're sort of othering and deciding like someone is gonna be the scapegoat for a society that's always been there. But

anyways, just this idea there's different kinds of viruses to me has been a helpful way of understanding the world and that you can catch good things and bad things, but a lot of people catch bad things. I definitely, I would love to talk about misinformation. We talked about it a little bit on your show. Do you feel like having kids has caused you to do more things in your life the right way? Because like maybe before having kids,

you were like, I can get away with this, and now it's like, well. I think so. I mean, you are trying to model good behavior and you're trying to show things. And I do feel like you have this obligation when you have kids to, I think, raise them well. I think it's made me think about things.

I don't know, it is funny people will be like, I have two daughters and that's what made me care about this for the first time. That's a little weird, you know? Where you're like, I don't know if you need to have daughters. To know that sexual assault is bad or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got those too, I see those people too.

But I don't know, I think mostly what parenting did was it opened me up. Like, it's very easy to be selfish and to just think about you because you've got your own pain and your own problems and your own ambitions and to just sort of be closed off. And I think what parenting should do is, I mean, it forces you on a daily basis

to spend a lot of time thinking about what these other people are thinking and what they're going through and why they're acting this way. I think one of the things that hit me earlier was like, I'd be like, why are our kids acting this way? And my wife would be like, oh, it's because we skipped nap or whatever,

or it's because we skipped a nap or whatever. Or it's because we didn't take lunch seriously and they didn't really eat anything. And realizing, oh, there's this very specific cause and effectiveness of behavior in children, but also in people. And when you're forced to see it over and over and over again with your kids, what I tried to take from that deliberately was like, OK, everyone is acting for a reason. And I myself act for a reason.

And I always let myself off the hook for that reason. I didn't mean it. I'm tired. I'm overwhelmed. I'm whatever. I think it did cultivate some extra empathy in me because it forced me to – it's not that your kids are never in the wrong, but like they're kids, right? And so you have to think about why they're acting this way. You can't just be like, it's because they're an asshole. It's because they suck. It's because those people are like that, right? All the things we do to not empathize or care about other people because it would be a burden. And so kids force you to do that and I tried very deliberately as that process happened to take out sort of a meta lesson from it

that I think may be better. I like that. I think for me, you kind of encouraged me to think about this I think in some ways, which is that, for example, every time you go somewhere, I know you're traveling today so I'm gonna, I'm twisting the knife, but whenever you have to choose to go somewhere, it's like, this has to be important. I came to Austin because it's like, I'm gonna be on your show, I'm gonna interview you, I wanna see the bookstore, haven't seen your wife in years or whatever it's been, and I would love to visit,

and then I'm going to New York to do eight billion things. Not to hang out for four days and maybe do some, no, it's like back to back to back to back, it's not gonna be all fun and games, it's gonna be quite stressful. And then my wife's like, do you wanna take it easy and come back on Friday or do you wanna, I'm like, nope, come back on Thursday night

and get back late and then go straight to bed after a really long ass day and the next day, I'm gonna be on a plane to San Diego to go to Legoland and I can't be like, oh daddy doesn't want to build Legos I'm tired. It's like no, I'm gonna have caffeinate and get her done You have to have a reason to do all of these things to take you away from your family Where's what before I had kids? I was like, I'll go somewhere Why don't we stay at this place for like a month?

Let's throw an extra week and just stay in Hawaii and it's part of around it's like you really have to we don't have you don't Have to though. I guess you could screw up your kids and not do that. And I would say a lot of people don't, right? Like, I don't think everyone does think that way. Maybe not. I don't know if my parents always thought that way. I don't know if generations of parents have always thought that way.

The idea that you owe the first slash best of your time or self to these people, I think that's a somewhat recent and wonderful cultural consensus, you know, but once you concede to it then yeah it does challenge you and it forces you to change because I realized I was, it's not that I was not selfish, I think I was selfish, but I was very willing to do things that incurred a cost to myself or even to my relationship or to my health or to my work because people asked,

because they were lucrative, because it would be good for my career. I would just say yes. And I think fundamentally a lot of it was just insecurity. Like I knew that at some point people would stop asking. And so I had to say yes now. I just didn't have the confidence to be like, it'll come around. And so seeing the cost of that embodied in a very sweet three-year-old on the

verge of tears or whatever it is, forces you to see the cost of the yes-ness from a different perspective. That's been very powerful and life-changing for me. Likewise, and I think you're right. There's most of these examples I think you've given me. Gandhi was like the last, kids were last in line. Yeah. Angola Merkel, her dad was, I think a pastor or a priest or not a priest. He was like a pastor for disabled children. Right.

But his own children were always kind of last in line. Last in line, and then was it the Queen of England who like was gone for months at a time and then she sees her kids and they Run up to give her a hug and she's like no not right now, and then she like greets some dignitary Yes, she's been gone for months the Royal yacht comes in her kids rush up to her And there's like a protocol which with the Queen is supposed to like greet I don't know the Prime Minister there's some protocol she was supposed to observe and like your kids are not part of that protocol

Yeah, and Prince Charles like now the King of England runs up to his mom Prime Minister, there was some protocol she was supposed to observe and like, your kids are not part of that protocol. And Prince Charles, like now the King of England runs up to his mom, he's like five or six, she says, not you dear, I have to do this first. And I think it's even like a title of one of the chapters in his memoir. So like these little decisions that you make, they have this searing impact on a person.

I was actually just thinking about that on the way here, like the way in which like, we say our kids come first and then like, I don't know, I was on the phone yesterday, my kids are making crazy noise, but I'm on this, I'm like, you shut up. Yeah. Not you, who by the way, work for me, put up with this background noise. I was trying to sell me something. Yeah. Like I was saying like, saying to my my kids these people are more important than you or like I was going somewhere and like I don't like to be late, but am I rushing drop-off with my kids? Right. So this other person doesn't have to wait one minute. Obviously, it's not good to make anyone wait. We should have left a little earlier.

But the point is like I'm saying no, no, no, no, no, like what you need is less important than this Trivial inconvenience to this other person the ease with which we do that I feel like it's forced me to just think about things differently and I think become more just generally empathetic But this the sad thing is yes, most of the great men and women from history were not good parents Yeah, it sucks to read that stuff because because you think, is this a necessary trade? It's not. I don't think it is. I mean, look, do you think Zelinsky has been a great father

the last couple of years? Well, yeah. It's probably different. I'm sure there's a cost to it. Sure. I think a lot of times it's rationalized in a disturbing way. We say we're doing it for them, and it's not.

He might have a decent excuse. No, no, when you're saying he's as necessary, I'm saying Winston Churchill is saving humanity from the Nazis. Was he as hands-on with his children and grandchildren in that period? Probably not, right? And there are moments where,

so I guess I was trying to let Zelensky off the hook. He seems like actually a great human being. Speaking of Zelensky and parenting, there's that thing in his first inaugural address, the famous, like we do this in the US, there's a picture of the president at the airport or whatever, Ukraine's a patriotic country. He was like, don't hang up pictures of me in your house.

He was like, hang up pictures of your kids in your house and try to honor them. You know, and I loved that. I thought that was cool. He seems like a lovely person. I'm saying, look, sometimes you're gonna be faced in situations where you can't, you have to be gone or away,

or that's not what I'm saying. I do think what tends to happen is we say we're doing these things for our kids, but we're doing them for ourselves. And if we're actually doing it for our kids, we would not be doing it. It's tough when you face yourself with that reality. I, for example, and I've told you this a thousand times,

but whatever, it's a podcast, so you have to put up with that. I haven't written a book, and one of the reasons is I want to write a book when I really have something to say, not when my agent wants like a house in Nantucket or whatever, for a commission. But one of the other reasons is my kids are two and four, or almost five, and your agent will always tell you, we're gonna help you with the ghostwriter,

it's gonna be a lighter lift. I'm like, what about the five, first of all, no. I don't wanna have somebody do this whole thing for me and that it's crap or mediocre, and then I have to promote it for five years. I could say to my wife, look, look how much money they're offering me. Sure. Isn't this going to be great? We can send them to any school we want, any college we want,

we can go on vacation, we can take them to Disneyland every weekend with all this money. But the truth is, I'm not going to be done with work at 5 p.m. anymore. Sure. I'm going to be done at 8 30 or whatever because I'm doing maybe four days a week, maybe on Friday I'll leave a little. What is really going to matter more? And if you really think about it, your kids are not going to care if when you're dead they get a little bit more. Book royalties. Yeah, book royalties are like more money

in the will and the trust and estate. They're gonna be like, I just remember playing with my dad like every day after school. Or do they remember you not being available at all after school, but cool, I got a boat because my dad passed away. You know, like you really have to ask yourself these questions. And you find out that the answer is no, you wanted to write that book so you could get

that money and then you could do a book tour and everybody thinks you're brilliant and special and fun and you're talking and people are admiring you and maybe you hit the list so you get that cool thing, you get a plaque. You know, that stuff is meaningful, but is it better than spending time with your kids? The answer's almost always no, but there's so much shine on that stuff, man. Yeah, I think about that, but then I catch myself because,

conversely, you say you're doing stuff for your kids, and then you're not. You can also tell yourself you're not doing things for your kids, so you can spend more time with them or whatever, and then you go, but how am I spending my time? Right, you know what I mean but how am I spending my time? Right, you know what I mean? Like, how am I spending my time?

First off, when I'm at home or around them, am I actually home or am I preoccupied or busy or thinking about the work that I do have? And then also, am I just filling that stuff up? So I'll go like, okay, do I wanna take this flight or this flight? One gets me home an hour earlier, but it's crazy And then I go okay, but how often do I waste an hour at home?

Yeah, I have it okay, right because I'm I'm gonna go I'm gonna go run this errand or oh, I'm gonna go I'm gonna so I think it should keep you honest in both ways not just hey I don't do stuff, but also where am I when I'm not doing stuff, just doing it to pat myself on the back. Yeah, that's interesting. But I'm actually not being parent of the year with the time that I have, right? Right. Or it's like, do you wanna be a person who's gone

from time to time or have this temporary thing where you're working a lot? Or do you wanna be the person who's bitter and frustrated or not present because you know you could be doing something or you should be, you know what I mean? Like to me it's- Yeah, I suppose.

I get that. I've chosen my kids over my career in many ways. That's good. It is kind of tough because you go, oh, I bet I could build something. Well, no, it's gonna take a lot of extra time. But then you just really have to be honest with yourself and ideally before you have kids,

ask yourself what you really want. Because we've all seen those kids whose parents actually just wanted to be the best plastic surgeon in Michigan instead of being a dad. And I saw what happened to those kids and it wasn't good. I try to make decisions, I try to go like, is this the thing that looking back I go, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

That's why mom and dad live in different houses. You know what I mean? And so there's been moments where like, I've had cool job opportunities or cool projects, or, you know, and I had to go, look, that seems cool, but I can see the wreckage that comes along with it. So I've chosen that too. And I think it's good, you know,

in that I don't think men were ever expected to make those kinds of choices. And certainly not, would it like proudly say that they had done that. So I think that's- You ever hear older guys be like, I've never changed a diaper in my life. And I'm thinking like, you don't know

what you're missing, pal. Actually, it's quite funny and fun to be that intimately involved with the caring of your kids. But you're right, maybe a generation ago it was kind of considered like, oh, what are you some kind of loser? You don't have anything better to do?

Yes, you could have been a better plastic surgeon in Michigan. Like there's a line in writing, and I forget who said it, but something like every kid you have is a book you won't write. And there's probably something to that. I meant negative two books. The answer to that is to shrug. Because they're not that like, you're not changing the world with any of this shit.

It's not that important. There's an ego in thinking like, I chose not to have kids because my work's so important. Like if you don't wanna have kids, don't have kids, I'm not saying it's morally good or bad to do it. I just, the narcissism of like, no, no, no, these are my children. It's like, all right, bro. It's cringy. Bro, you, yeah, no, these are my children. It's like, all right, bro.

It's cringey. Bro, you, yeah, you make makeup tutorials or whatever. Right, yeah. It's true, I do, look, and I'm always, if people are on the fence about not having kids, I always say don't, because it's- I say this when people are on the fence about writing a book.

Yeah, don't do it. Yeah, please don't. Yeah, please don't for the rest of us and also for the kids. I guess the book itself doesn't have feelings, but it doesn't need to be out there save the trees There are people that have work and you go I couldn't do this if I had children So I decided not to and you're like, but you do a radio show

So like I mean, it's a great show, but really like when you're gone Maybe people replay this occasionally, but they're just gonna be like old folks when they're gone No one's gonna go back a hundred years and listen to your old interviews, really. I mean, it's very unlikely. No. I think- I was interviewing some television host and he was saying, he was like, I don't see my

kids as much I'd like, but like, I'm doing these shows for them. And I was like, that's not why you're on TV three times a day, bro. Like that has nothing to do with them. You're on TV three times a day because they pay you millions of dollars one and two You like fucking talking. That's what your superpower is Don't make it about them. You gotta be intellectually honest about why you're doing the thing There's something uniquely egotistical about doing a selfish thing and then making it a

Statement of your selflessness and sacrifice. Sure. Like, I think there's a good chance that in a hundred years somebody will read a book about stoicism that you've written. That's pretty cool. I was telling my producer, like, when my kids are grown and they're listening to this and he goes, funny of you, bold of you to think that your son Jaden is going to be listening to more than one of these ever. He's gonna listen to a couple and be like, ah, that's kind of fun. Never again.

Maybe when he's like 75 and retired, he'll be like, oh my god, my dad has all that audio. Maybe I'll listen to that when I'm cutting the lawn or whatever the equivalent is then. Maybe. But otherwise, no. So the idea that you're trading time with them or trading some experience or thing that you could build with them to create that

is laughably, it's totally ridiculous. So why not just shut down your show and be a stay-at-home dad? It would be great if I could earn a living. And I love what I do, that has value. But yeah. No, but I mean, you could, I'm sure you could retire. You could retire and it wouldn't be easy necessarily,

but you could. I could, yeah. So, I don't know. I'd still like to do something other than, you know, I thought about that. I was like, what if I took a hiatus? It's tough with creating things like a podcast, because you lose your audience, like you never get it back. But I'm taking way more time. Like, I'm taking two months off starting next week, actually.

Wow. Legoland is the beginning of the end of my work until the fall. Honestly, if my kids magically were gonna stay five and two forever, I would just retire because I would take care of them. The problem is when I retire and then they're like 12 and they're like, why are you home? What are you doing?

I know, my mom, I've told this story before and my relationship with changes is over time because I can relate to it more. But my mom worked, she was a school principal, she worked my whole life. But about like 12 or 13, she was like, she came home one day, she was so excited. And she was like, I've switched to part time so I can be home when you get home from school, we can spend more time together. And I was like, get out of here. I was like, what? I was like, what? Like, you didn't do this shit for me. I'm 13. Yeah, I don't want to hang out. That's funny brutal so I mean I'm I didn't say any of this but the point is like there is a point where they don't want to

See you anymore. Yeah, and yeah the earlier you make the decisions there's that whole 18 summers thing and I'm like whoever said that did they really have kids cuz When they're 13 the last five summers, they do not want any okay So I think about that quote a lot, right? So people go, there's only 18 summers with your kids. And one of the things that's changed for me, like I think it's important that you, another Joan Didion thing she said,

I don't trust anyone that never moved away from home. Like, that stays in your hometown. She was like, you gotta get out. That's funny. You meet different kinds of people, different cultures. I think people are different economic classes. I think one of the things that's changed me as a parent, I remember growing up and you're supposed to move out

when you're 18 and the kids who didn't move out when they were 18 were weirdos or losers. And there was like something wrong about those families. One of the things that's changed, and maybe it's a generational thing, I meet all these other people who are a little older than me or have older kids than I do. And they're teenagers, they spend

tons of time together. Their kids are in college, they spend tons of time together. That sounds cool. And what I realized is like, yeah, you only get 18 summers with your kids. But also, if you have a good relationship with your kids, and they don't hate spending time with you, you might have lots of summers with your kids. You should never take any of them for granted because you never know what's going to happen to anyone and life is unpredictable. But also the idea shouldn't be, this is when we're together and then you move out

and then we go do our life, which is kind of what my parents did. Like my parents moved to Hawaii when my sister and I graduated from high school and college. They were just like, good for them though. So it's our time now, which is good, but there's a loneliness to that I think also. The ideal scenario is that you have a great relationship and you enjoy spending time together

and you love and support and enjoy that company. The founder of Kinko's was on a podcast once. I was listening to him and he said, you know what Rich is? Rich is your kids come home for the holidays. And $1.8 billion, but whatever. But he was saying how many people have $1.8 billion. That's true. Not a lot, but enough of them

that we have a pretty large sample size that most of them do not have great family lives. And his point was, you could have this stuff, but what you're really gonna want is this thing. And so I just try to think about like, what are the decisions, what are the practices, what are the way you work on this? So it's not like it was for me,

and I think a lot of kids where you're like, I cannot wait to get the out of here and away from these people. Psycho, yeah, psycho parents. Yeah, I think a lot about investing in the relationship with my kids. And I'm reading, what's the book you recommend? Constantly, Good Inside.

That's like the the play on my own She's I find myself just starting over because I'm like I just need to absorb this even more if you had her on yet Not yet. It's only a matter of time. I'm out. I'm like the biggest dr. Becky evangelist Yeah, I'm gonna take that warm intro at some point. Everything she says is like either confirming a hunch where we're like, oh good We're doing the right thing or I'm like, oh, I like the way of looking at it. So we'll link to that book in the show notes for this episode, but I found that, I think I'm digressing from a point she made, but I find almost like less motivation

in building my business, same work ethic, less drive to expand things at the cost of having a relationship with the kids. And it seems like, I used to do all my shows in person, right? And it was great. But now I would never make the choice to fly out to New York for just one show or something. Like, it has to be this, like, fully packed time.

Even a world-class scientist, it's like, I'm spending three days essentially away from my kids. Like, it's a really difficult situation. I think about it in terms of bedtimes. And like, I was just talking to my wife last night. So I've got this book coming out, it comes out on Tuesday. And so I have to go to New York for the launch or whatever. And you work so hard at the beginning of your career.

You're like, I want to go on book tour, I want to do all this press. Because I think you're rooted in this kind of insecurity. First up, there's a financial interest to it. You're just like, if I get that, then I'll be special. I'll be loved, I'll be validated, whatever. Then you get there and then you realize the cost of it. And then you're like, how can I get out of this? I was like, how can this be as short as possible?

Do I have to do that? Is that worth doing? Is there a return on investment for doing that? And so it feels a little ungrateful and certainly privileged, but there is this other part of me that's like, oh no, I just wasn't aware of the cost of it before. And now I have this other thing that I love more than that. And so now I'm torn, you know. UFO lands in Suffolk and that's official, said the News of the World.

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and conflicting theories about what was encountered in the middle of a snowy Suffolk forest 40 years ago. Are we alone? Encounters is a podcast which is going to find out. Listen to Encounters exclusively and ad free on Wondry+. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or in Apple podcasts. I think it was Dan Ariely on my show who said something like, you know how to get out of saying yes to things that you regret later? He's like, instead of, hey, in six months, you're gonna do this, we're gonna go to Austin, New York,

then you're gonna go to Mexico, and then you gotta go to Europe and do your European, whatever, tour. You have to imagine that it's next Tuesday Yeah, can you go to New York for a week? Oh, that sounds awesome. It's next Tuesday. No actually I don't feel like it and I've got some stuff I want to do you're gonna have stuff you want to do in 18 months Yeah, during that trip that you're planning to go to New York for a week. Do you want to go the answer is always?

No, it's easy to not think about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's like filling a calendar. That's empty Okay That calendar is eventually going to be full and now you have this big block thing that you kind of didn't really want to do You said yes, cuz it was it this it's like a problem for future Ryan. Don't envy that guy. Yeah The other thing I think it makes it easier as you imagine your kids dying vividly not like graphically I guess you should say but was it you who wrote about imagining visiting your child's grave? Well, there's an exercise from Marcus Aurelius, which he takes from Epictetus. He says, like, as you tuck your child in at night, you should say to yourself, they will not make it through the morning. Memento mori is morbid enough for people,

the idea of meditating on your own death. The idea that you would meditate on the death of your own child seems insane. Now in Marcus's case, he buries half of his children. He buries, I think, six children. So the ancient world was a horrendous place that we don't think about. And this is the guy with the best medical care if money could buy, I guess, right? Sure, sure.

But I don't think what he's doing is trying to detach from the person. It's the opposite. The way I have taken it, the way it's informed how I parent, is I'm, my son's like, can I have another glass of water? What, I need this. Really, my son's like, can I have another glass of water? Would I need this?

Really, you're suddenly hungry 46 minutes into bedtime. Like, no, you're extending this thing, right? And I go, all right, you know what I mean? What do I care? I'm gonna go not watch as much Netflix now, or like the email is gonna wait a little bit longer. Like, what am I rushing through this for? First off, there's also these moments you have

with your kids where one night they're like, all right, night, and then it hits you. The things that we used to have to do as part of the routine that slowly fall away, those are gone forever. And you're gonna miss them when they happen. And yet while you have them, you're like, when the fuck will this be over?

And so to me, that exercise is a way of putting a very radical and almost deranged perspective on it and then you realize, oh actually what's insane is this thing that I'm rushing through. You only get so many of these and here you are taking it for granted and someday you'll miss it. And so I'm not perfect at it by any means

because sometimes it's go the fuck to sleep bro. But no, we're not gonna get in the pool now. It doesn't matter that we normally go in the pool before bed. You had a choice, you decided not to do it. And now you're already in your pajamas and the sound machine is on and you've been quietly laying there for 15 minutes. We're not going backwards into swimming time.

What are you insane? But like, how am I gonna react to this? How am I gonna talk about it? Because why would I make this wonderful thing a negative exchange? And so that it does catch me that way. And the Stokes were talking about it from the perspective that we,

it was much harder for them to take it for granted because death was ever present. Well, for us, thank God, infant mortality is incomprehensibly low compared to what it was then. So it's even easier for us to go, there's always gonna be another bedtime. It's always gonna be tomorrow. And that's not true.

Yeah, it's not true. By definition, childhood ends. Yeah, man, it is kind of depressing when you think about a lot of it. By the way, you have a pool here. That's a good call. It's like 97 degrees today. Yes.

Yeah, it must be so nice to see. But like this is climate change. People I know are getting pool chillers. Like you have to have something to cool your pool because it gets so hot. Because it's just a warm, it's too hot of a pool. Is it a hot tub? Yeah.

Oh gosh. That is a little, even when it's in the ground. I mean, yeah, if you have a pool in Dubai, how hot do you think it is? But that's climate change for you. It's just because it's so hot. That's, yeah, well, I mean, it does sound nice to jump in a nice cool pool.

I actually wish I had kids earlier. I never- Yes, I do too. It's funny, I never used the freedom I had back then. I wouldn't say never, but I also paid for it in loneliness in some ways, right? Sure. In 2020 hindsight, I was ready a lot. Well, let's, actually, you're never ready to have kids.

You're as ready as you're gonna get, and you think you're gonna be readier later, and you just aren't, you're just older. The other interesting thing, like there was some wisdom in the way that they had kids earlier, because like your time was worth less. Like my time in my 20s was worth less

than my time in my 30s. Now is my time in my 30s valuable because of what I did in my 20s? Sure. But the point is, the way we do it now, you're like having kids in the busiest part, like the teenage part, like when you're at like the peak of your powers

or your peak of your earning potential. So there's a weird, like what I would have been saying no to in my 20s, cause I had kids, was like stupid social things. And now I'm like, we took a family vacation last summer and I was like, we were gone for a month. We went somewhere for a month. It was so hot here. were gone for a month, we went somewhere for a month. It was so hot here, we were like, we're gonna go somewhere for a month.

And this is the first time I'd done this where I was like, and I will not be accepting, no matter how lucrative, anything, it was like, you wanna fly here for 12 hours, we could do a talk and come back? I was like, no. And so my agent was like, I know you said this, but it's the most you've ever been offered for a thing, I have to show it to you. And I was like, no, you said this, but it's the most you've ever been offered for a thing. I have to show it to you.

And I was like, no, I'm not gonna do it. And so I'm like, well, fuck, this was an expensive vacation. This was like a house vacation. Do you know what I'm like? Like, this is- Gosh, good for you, saying no. But the point is nobody was throwing that kind of money at me when I was 27.

And so it would have been nice to have a five-year-old then. Yeah. You know Casey Neistat? Casey had a kid in high school Obviously which is not what you should do But the point is like his kid was in college when he was like hitting the peak of his career Like exactly when your kids like doing their own thing. There's some logic. I don't know. Yeah, that's funny Now you're right. It depends on the support structure you have it's a shame. I'm not trying to shame anybody who doesn't want kids I think it's a fair choice.

I just wasn't, I wish it wasn't all the smart good people who were like, you know what, no, choosing my career or, you know, or they wait too long and they can't. Yeah. I would have gotten married earlier too, I think. I just waited. I think so too. On everything.

Every time, cause it's like, I don't want to get married right away. And then it was like, well, I just got married. I got to enjoy being married for a while. And then suddenly you're just like, oh crap, if I don't have kids now, I'm going to be like 60 moving my kids into college, which is actually possibly gonna be true for me and Depending on when they go to well, maybe moving them out of college. I'll be 60 and it'll be like holy crap I can't lift this by myself. I got a bad back chasing money and status. It makes sense when you're single Yes, but if you're doing it when you're married and you have a family already, I think you're kind of doing it backwards.

Interesting, what do you mean? I think we get stuck in that mode and it's hard to escape. It's like a black hole. You start to feel good about it. Like you said, you rationalize that you're doing it for your kids. But if you're really honest with yourself,

a lot of it is for yourself. If I wanted, and my YouTube is like 1% of my audience, right? but all of the Fame comes from the people recognizing you from YouTube I like that the sound of Jordan harbinger's voice it does that does happen But it's pretty rare and I know friends who are youtubers that have like millions of subscribers And they make a fraction of what a podcaster makes it was a big audio audience But you can't even go to like Starbucks with them without people being like, whoa,

I can't believe it's you guys. And they have a meetup and like 600 people show up and they thought maybe like 30 people were gonna show up. It's like a real thing. My team was like, you know, you can build that. You have all the raw material. You just need to start doing your shows in person. They need to be a little bit longer.

You need to pick these certain controversial guests to sprinkle in because they get a lot of clicks. And you go, I think we talked about this on your show, like, oh, I'll make extra money and I can really like I can send our kids to school and do this. Now I'm forgetting what we talked about in your show and what we've already talked about here. But you really do rationalize it. The problem is it's never enough to fill the hole.

The fame, here's something we definitely haven't talked about. The fame is it's a weirdly intoxicating thing. Before I had any money, I didn't really care about being wealthy. I just thought like, if you're well off, you win. Sure. Which is true, by the way. But then you get some money and you go, wouldn't it be cool if also I was recognizable? On your show we talked about those rich people that like suddenly want to be YouTubers and

it's like, what are you doing? Yeah. Don't get me wrong, Beyonce is famous, I'm just a podcaster, but you really start to, it's like this insidious hole in your soul, and when you think about it, it's like, I drilled the hole in my soul that could be filled with- Well, not just that you drilled it,

but then you're actively drilling it bigger. Deeper, yeah. So there's this weird thing where it's somewhat strange to be recognized, it's uncomfortable, there's some safety or privacy concerns that come along with it. And then what do you do? You don't wake up and try to make yourself more anonymous. You wake up and you try to make yourself more famous.

So there's something fundamentally irrational about it. Yeah, it doesn't really do anything. It is weird. It sort of snuck up on me because my books have been popular for a long time, but authors have a Relatively anonymous life like how many people make it to the end of a book? How many people even know the name of the author let alone like flash forward is he the picture at the back, right? So yeah, and they all blur together

Yeah So, you know, I never got right and then the social media stuff happened and all of a sudden people are like Oh, you're that guy there's been advantages to it for sure. But like what? I'm curious. Well, look. Besides ego. Okay, so I'll give you an example.

So for Daily Stoic, we used to just post quotes every day. And then when it would come time, I'd be like, hey, I have a book coming out. People would be like, who the fuck are you? Yeah. Or when I would want to talk about something that I thought was important, people would be like, well, what are the quotes? Daily St stoic was supposed to not be about me and it ended up actually

needing to become about me to say and communicate the things that I wanted it to communicate and Especially as more and more people just sort of ripping off what we were doing, right? And so I noticed that there's like 10 stoicism. Yes now it's hilarious It's like the weekly stoic, the bi-weekly stoic, whatever. But anyways, when someone knows who you are and they trust you and they like you, they'll hear what you have to say. So there's a reason, it's a form of power

that can be used to do things that you want to do, just comes at a cost also. Yeah, I notice you never show your kids' face on social media. And when Jen and I were talking, she'll sometimes go, oh my god, this is so cute, and she'll send me a photo, and she's like, you should post that, and then she's like,

oh wait, no, no, no, no, no. And I never would. I mean, the only way, she posts all of our family stuff, and she's got a private whatever, we have to be accepted. Yeah, so there's like little downsides like that. And then there's also just not good, it's a corrosive power also though, right? You can identify with it and change you. And it's funny,

this is like, again, one of the themes in Mark Struas' meditations is he's like, he's this powerful guy that's worshiped as a God. And part of what he's trying to do there is remind himself that he's not special, that it doesn't say anything about him, that being recognized doesn't mean anything, it's just cheering and clapping, it's the smashing of hands together, the clacking of tongues. And he also tries to look at, he's like, let's talk about some of the most famous people of all time.

How famous are they now? How many people remember that? He'll run through the names of like really powerful, important people from like the court or two before his. And it'll be like, these are vaguely familiar at best now. I think as long as you're doing it because you have, it's a means to an end, it can be okay. If you're doing it because you think

it's helping you achieve immortality, or because it fills some hole in your soul, you're not, you're probably going the wrong direction. I always try to think about it like, the most famous person that my mom had heard of growing up is Somebody that you and I will have never heard about yes I can't even imagine who that person might be and you know those things that make all your parents feel old like when they go Oh, that's like so-and-so and you're like who yeah, even now it's starting to happen to me where I'm like

Oh, yeah, this is like this person and I'm not talking about like Charlie Chaplin I'm talking about yeah, somebody who I think is reasonably current and I'll be talking to somebody who's like 29 and they just go Who is that again? Yes, and I have to explain who this person is and I realize I'm the weirdo It's not that this person is profoundly disconnected from history It's that they don't have any clue who, like Audrey Hepburn was, which is also before my time. This is the beginning of the absolute fading of that person and the zeitgeist or the cultural memory. And this is a super famous person, which you have no...

This is when there was a handful of famous people at any given time. Now there's a gazillion podcasters and YouTubers and musicians and whatever else. You're just gonna blend into the cacophony of that. Even if you're an A-list film celebrity right now. You're not. Which you're not. I remember when I was first starting and I worked with a bunch of different authors,

every once in a while I'd meet someone and they'd be like, they'd done a book that had sold a million copies, but it had been eight years before, nine years before. Their new one was coming out and nobody cared. Sometimes that was due to decisions that they'd made, but over a long, you stretch it out long enough, it happens to everyone. And just realizing that this force is acting on you and that you're, there's this statue of Marcus Aurelius outside Budapest. And I was really struck by it because I think

it embodies a very stoic idea. So it's a statue of Marcus Aurelius, but they noticed that the head is removable. And what they discovered is that there are a lot of emperors. And so they didn't want to have to carve a new statue every time. So this is an ancient statue. This is an ancient statue. I was going to say, they uncovered it, you know, dug deep in. Oh, okay. They excavated it. It's in a museum. How did they not make it a Stalin statue? And what they discovered that even back then, what the Romans would do is they're like, look, we're not going to carve a 15 foot statue every time. Might not even be done by the time this guy's dead.

There's a year called the year of the five emperors, right? And so like, there was just a lot, or it was four. Anyways, the point is, they were like, you're the most famous, important, powerful person in the world, but you know what you are? Replaceable. Yeah, literally, in this case. And when you go, we're just gonna pop the head off, carve one of the new guy, and that's how this is gonna go. And that's what's happening to all of us, right?

Like, you're the number one podcast for a brief moment, and then you're not the number one podcast. And then podcasts are not even a thing anymore. And it's this relentless, merciless process by which you are slowly, inevitably made irrelevant by time and age and indifference. And some of us may have blips that last longer than others, but it happens to all of us.

And for those few exceptions, like the fact that I'm talking about Marcus Aurelius or mentioned Charlie Chaplin or Katherine Emmer or whatever. You know what good it does them to be remembered? Zero. They're dead. Dead. They're taking zero enjoyment out of it right now.

They didn't get any paying of validation that their name has survived. How do you think it makes Alexander the Great feel that Alexandria is still a city with hundreds of thousands of people and he. And he founded that city. It doesn't mean anything to him. He died a horrible death, needlessly premature, because his ambition was endless and his men wanted to go home and he died there. And that was the end of that story.

It's been a part of other people's stories since, but it did him zero good. How did he die? I don't even know actually. Well, there's one theory is that his men killed him story since, but it did him zero good. How did he die? I don't even know actually. Well, there's one theory is that his men killed him because they were like, you said we would go home once we got here and he didn't want to go home. Right, he wants to keep going.

And then the other one is he caught this like weird disease and it paralyzed him and he basically snow white for like a number of days. He was alive in like in a coma, but he could hear and comprehend what was happening. It was like, it's a particularly gruesome death. It's like ALS. There's some other ones, but he died. And then he's gone. Yeah.

And as Marcus writes in meditations, he's like Alexander the Great and his mule driver both died and were both buried in the ground. The same thing happened to both of them, which is that they became worm food. And so there's something I think humbling and clarifying about that. Does that mean nothing matters and you should do nothing? No, it just means you have to figure out how to do it in a balanced way inside your life. Yeah, I think you're really, you're onto something. A lot of people who get caught up, my friends were like making tons of money and stuff. They start going

like looking at what they're going gonna buy online, even fantasy shopping. I was talking to my wife, because one of my friends is selling his company for like hundreds of millions, and I'm like, what are you gonna get? Are you gonna get a plane or a boat or both? It's fun to think about. And I was telling my wife, I was like,

yikes, probably never gonna get there, not even headed towards that, don't really care. And she's like, yeah, I don't really think we need that. And I was thinking, what would I take in a fire? My kids, my wife, maybe my laptop would be a little inconvenient, but I'm like, I don't really need that. My cats, I take my kids, my wife and my cats. I would stand in the street and watch my house burn down.

I wouldn't even go back in for anything else, even if I thought I could get it. What do I need? I don't need any of that stuff. The other thing is like, yeah, sure, you're not selling your company for $100 million, but I bet, I met you in 2012. If I was like, Jordan, I'm gonna tell you about a future in which 12 years from now this is how

many downloads your show is doing. This is what you're getting paid per year. This is how many years you will have done it and have taken this much out of the business. You'd have been like that is incomprehensibly lucky and plentiful and would be enough. And the problem is we get used to it and then we move the thing and it gets more, like I wanted to write one book. So I was like, if I could write a book, that would be so cool.

And this is 16. Does that mean I should stop and just, no, because what am I supposed to do with my time, right? There's other things, like my kids are at school, like I have time for myself also. So I'm just trying to get to a place where, or what I think the struggle is, and there's not a lot of resources and discussion about it.

It's like, how do you do what you do and be good at it, but from a place of enoughness? Yeah, it's tough. It's easy to be like, hey, I do this thing and I work on this thing and I compete at this level because this is my goal or this is what I have to prove or this is my number, the money I'm trying to make. Or not even to think about that

and do it more from a place of like, I'm gonna prove those people wrong. I'm gonna be the greatest ever. I'm gonna make the most. I'm gonna be the number one, the indisputed goat or whatever. That in some ways is easier because you're like, this thing is deciding what I do and how much of it I do and how much it takes out of me. But to try to be like, I'm good at what I do, I care about what I do, trying to do it

well, I'm in the league, but I'm trying to do it from a motivational place that is not outcome dependent. Yeah, it is funny to look back historically on, you're right, when I first, not even when I first started, halfway through, when I started this second iteration, when I started the Jordan Harbinger show from my previous show, kind of like unplugging things and plugging it back in, I remember going, okay.

And it was a very small number of what I thought I would need. And of course, you know, that's like what you get in a week now or whatever what I thought I would need. Yeah, and of course, you know That's like what you get in a week now or whatever But when I first first started I remember I was an attorney before and I go if I could make One half as much as I make as a lawyer doing this other thing that I love That would be so awesome. And of course now it's beyond that and then you think oh, but how do I double this? And it's just so silly because the way you double it

is to ruin this thing that you love by doing it 100 times more than you want to and not seeing your family. I remember James Altucher said to me once, he was like, you know, you don't have to put your money to work. And I was like, what? He was saying like, people are like,

you gotta earn money and you're gonna put that money to work. And then he's like, and then you gotta buy a house and then you just gotta appreciate. His point was like, you could also just make money and then live. It doesn't have to be this thing that you're building or accumulating.

Look, some people don't have this problem at all, and some people don't have this impulse at all. But then I think people are hearing this probably do relate to it. Yeah, I think so. Where you have a business, and revenue of the business is X. So next year, it should be X plus 20%, Right? And if it's 90% of X,

then you're going in the wrong direction and you're failing. And so like, it becomes this thing of comparing instead of just like, hey, this is what I do. And I'm going to show up every day and do it and do it well. And obviously, if it makes no money, or if it's like losing money, you're probably not sustainable But it's equally unsustainable to grow at an infinite level for an infinite amount I am trying to sort of free myself from expectations. I don't have sales goals on my books anymore Really? I don't have like bestseller list goals I wanted to reach as many people as possible and I do the things required, but I have tried to get the sort of hunger out of it. That's amazing. I mean, how did you do that?

Well, part of it is doing it once. Like winning one gold medal and realizing your life isn't completely... Yeah, that's helpful. I mean, I remember when Obstacles Away hit number one for the first time, I was like mowing my lawn. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, oh, okay, what does this mean? Nothing, you know? Okay, so Stillness is the Key was my first book to hit the New York Times with Sellevice and it debuted at number one.

And so I was like, holy shit, I've done it. So then as I've done these other books, you have to make these different decisions. Like, hey, do you wanna go on a book tour? Why do you go on a book tour? It's because it spreads the sales around and then it helps for the list better, right? But that requires being gone for a long time.

Or I have my own bookstore, I have Daily Stoke has a store. I can sell my books directly to the readers, which is better in some ways financially, but also then there's a direct relationship between you and the people. So I can be like, when I have a new one, I can be like, hey, hear about this one, right? But literally every time I do this,

the publisher goes, but you know that's gonna hurt your chances to be on the best seller list. Because you're supposed to spread them out. You're supposed to spread them out. And then the New York Times list, I think understandably when I report, hey, I sold 30,000 copies of my own book from my store.

They're like, did you though? Yeah. So like, that makes sense. Right? I was like, oh yeah, but my goal is not to do that. It doesn't mean I've done it. It didn't change my life in any considerable way. And by doing it this way, I am cultivating a more sustainable relationship with the audience that allows me to then just be like, Hey, I have a thing you want to hear. So anyways, the point is,

how do you set up your life and the way you run your business, your career or whatever, that it is as independent of other people and institutions as possible? That's where you wanna get. Because then you can just do the thing because you like doing the thing. And if other people like doing the thing, then it can be financially sustainable,

but it's not run through the, think about it, so you make this great movie, you put it out. But if you want it to win an award, you have to do the award season campaign. You have to go to the things, you have to send it out to the people, you have to buy at it's a process. And the second you decide that that thing is meaningful to you, you are accepting the obligations of doing that thing or the disappointment of not getting the thing because you didn't do the process.

Yeah, man, I find this is really helpful because the whole comparison thing, right, it's the thief of joy and all these awards that you can get for books are like sales goals and little press release things. Look, that stuff can be motivating, I guess, but for me, usually it's like four o'clock in the morning I get up to pee.

I don't need to be motivated then. That's called anxiety at that point. And I just find the negative comparison stuff, it kind of all, it blends together and it kind of cures almost like concrete or asphalt in a way that's really, you have to scrape it off your soul at the end, and it's not good. I was so much happier with podcasting

before you could know how many downloads you had. Sure. There used to be this time where you would rent server space on like GoDaddy and they would go, oh yeah, this file was actually like there was no stats dashboard. You just have to look at how many mp3 files were downloaded over a 30 day period. It would be like 80% partial downloads because that's the files are long and you had no idea What that really meant and you go? Okay, and then there were 40,000 full downloads does that mean it's 40,000 people and then they would explain to you that you can't really tell Yeah

How many unique people it was without doing like some sort of complex? Calculation that they aren't gonna do for you and you go. Oh, okay. Well, I guess since I like it I'm just gonna keep doing it. I was so much happier when that was it. Now you can look every minute and there's up-to-date statistics and it shows you where your rank is compared to somebody else. Like, this is like the most unhealthy way

to do something you love. It really is. I've said before, I think with my first book, I was like 90% like, how's this gonna do? That determines my happiness. Yeah. And 10% like, I think this gonna do? That determines my happiness. And 10% like, I think I wrote a good book, I'm really proud of it. I think I flipped it.

Yeah, that's great. Or I think it's been a process getting towards being close to saying that I flipped it. That's what I'm trying. Would I be disappointed if it sold zero copies? Of course, right? And that would also be, people would be upset with me because I published it with someone.

Right, you would have failed people who have invested in you. I understand that. Yeah, and it also decreases the chances of my ability to do it again, to do the next book. It changes the resources that I have available, the time I have allotted. It changes things.

I just try to channel that energy towards doing the thing well. That's true, right? Once you're at the top tier author level, you're still getting paid for talks, it's still worth it for you to write another book. You already have a topic. I know you have the next three or four books.

This is a four book series. So I have another. That's the other reason I'm not thinking about how this one is going to do, because actually what I'm thinking is every minute that I'm spending traveling to promote or doing, I'm like, I could be working on the thing. Did you take a break between books? This one I took two years on instead of one year. Like I decided to take extra time just to be around more

and to just slow down a bit. But I try to always, as soon as I finish a book, start the next one. Not because I have to always be working, but because to me, being in the process is, I write books, I'm not in it to publish books. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. This is the accidental byproduct of doing a bunch of research.

The thing that I do. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's the enoughness, fullness place as opposed to like, no, no, no, what I do is book launch parties. That's actually the culmination of it is the call from the agent that says, hey, here's where the first week sales numbers came in and here's where you rank. That's to me is like this extra thing. That's like getting the bill at the end almost. It's not negative, but like that's like, I was here for dinner. Yeah.

Like I enjoyed the meal. Yeah, I like that. I like that outlook. I always learn a lot from you you whether or not I'm reading your stuff over at the daily dad at daily dad calm That's my major Ryan holiday fixes daily dad. So that's my favorite thing to write You always text me about it, which I appreciate I do Yeah, and I appreciate you man, and I know that sounds creepy actually when people say that but I mean it and Thanks for having me over the painted porch. Yeah. Thanks for coming Thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and would really help the show.

We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode. If you like The Daily Stoic and thanks for listening, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, would you tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey on