The Daily Stoic - Steven Pressfield on Consistency, Overcoming Resistance and Discipline

Episode Date: August 20, 2022

Ryan talks to author Steven Pressfield about his new book Put Your Ass Where Your Heart Wants To Be, how to do good work consistently, the importance of discipline, and more.Steven Pressfield wrote for 27 years before he got his first novel published. During that time he worked 21 different jobs in eleven states. Steven taught school, drove tractor-trailers, worked in advertising and as a screenwriter in Hollywood. He worked on offshore oil rigs, and picked fruit as a migrant worker. His books include The War of Art and Gates of Fire.✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, prime members, you can listen to the Daily Stoic podcast early and add free on Amazon music. Download the app today. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance and wisdom. And then here on the weekend we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers, we explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wunderree's podcast business wars. And in our new season, Walmart must fight off target, the new discounter that's both savvy and fashion forward. Listen to business wars on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts. I just had the most wonderful couple of days. I was writing about this in my journal this morning. Stephen Pressfield was here, and there's probably nobody

who has shaped my career as a writer other than Robert Green and probably my wife has shaped my career as a writer and as a creative and as an artist. And in some ways as a person, then Steven has. I first read The War of Art. This would have been in 2006 or seven. I reread it before I start any creative project. I've gone through it dozens and dozens of times.

I got connected with Steven a few years later. Steven was nice enough to blur the obstacles the way, which was life-changing. It helped that book blow up. And he was also, when I was writing the obstacles away, Stephen's thoughts on structure shaped it. But when I was sitting down to write courage, he's calling. I did a, I called Stephen and he gave me some advice.

And he, he shaped what that book became, the third part of that book came from my conversation with Steven. So he's just an amazing person. And from the moment I first read one of his works, actually the first book I read of his was Gates of Fire. I just, I felt the connection to him in his writing that I have not felt to many thinkers or writers at any other point in my life. And so he came out. Stephen was actually here in

2019 or early 2020 right before the pandemic as I was kicking around early stages of the bookstore. We shot it a YouTube podcast episode and then he was back out here and we shot out on the back porch on the painted porch. I interviewed him. That's today's episode. And then he came in and he told some stories, which we shot. Those will also be going up on YouTube. I got to spend some time with Diana, his girlfriend. And it was just, when someone shapes or influences you, that's super powerful.

And then when you meet them and they turn out to be wonderful and kind and generous and all the things they talk about in their work and more, that's just even more special. And I'm just really excited to bring you this episode with Stephen. If you're not familiar with this work, you have to be. If you are, you're going to like this interview because we go way, way in depth on a lot of topics. And it was just a delightful experience for me. Steven's been writing for 30 years and he grounded out for a long time. He had 21 jobs in 11 states. He taught school, drove tractor trailers,

worked in advertising as a screenwriter. He's worked on offshore oil rigs, picked fruit as a migrant laborer. There's in the Marines. And these experiences shaped some of my favorite books. You can pick them up in the paint report. She signed a bunch of them. And these books include the War of Art, which is sold millions of copies,

Gates of Fire, which is sold millions of copies, Amanate Arms, Turning Pro, the artist's journey, do the work, Tides of War, The legend of backer vans, last of the Amazon's virtues of war, the Afghan campaign killing Rommel the profession, the Lionsgate, the Warrior, ethos, the authentic swing, nobody wants to read your shit, and the knowledge.

And now the new one, put your ass where your heart wants to be, which I read before sitting down to tackle this new book that I'm writing. And it's delightful. He signed a bunch of copies of those. And it's a very stoic idea. We've got some daily stoic emails coming around the themes in that book.

But in the meantime, here's my interview with the one and only Stephen Pressfield. You can go to StephenPressField.com, follow him at S Pressfield on Twitter, at Stephen Stephen Pressfield. You can go to StephenPressField.com, follow him at S PressField on Twitter, at StephenUnderSquarePressField on Instagram, go to his website, you should subscribe to his blog, you should buy all his books, you can get those personalized,

you can get those sign copies from thepainapportge.com, or I will link to them in today's show notes. It was wonderful to see you, Stephen, and I'm excited to share this interview with everyone. So I was thinking about put your ass where your heart wants to be because the other day, I was feeling like sick. I wasn't feeling super well. And I felt like I had every excuse, not to sit down and write, but I sort of gutted it out anyway, and it was one of the best writing days that I'd had in a long time.

And I think about that tension because like, I think people think that writers sort of one always want to do it, that's always fun, that it always comes easily. But a lot of it, I think the thing that makes it work is the days that you show up that you don't want to. There's a lot to that, right? And I think it's true for the gym, too. You know, I'm sure you're a runner, right?

Sure. You know, those days when you think, oh my God, I can't stand this, you know, one more minute, you know. Somehow, sometimes, I don't know why that is. Do you have any idea why that is? No, I don't. And it's like, you have any idea why that is? No, I don't. And it's like you get whatever that point, it's not fun at first, but you push, there's some level or barrier that you break through.

Maybe on those, I'm just thinking as we're talking, maybe on those days when there's like a head of steam built up and you don't know it, there's heavier resistance against that, trying to stop that good stuff from coming out. That could be it, I bet that is it. Yeah, so if it's easy, don't do it. Well, and like if you could do a good project

by only showing up on the days when you felt like showing up, then everyone would do it. Right, like then. That's true. It's the difference maker is, did you show up on the days when it was hot, when you were tired, when you weren't feeling it, that's what they say, what separates the boys

from the girls, which we wouldn't say anymore. Now the amateurs from the professionals, right? Yeah, exactly. Did you show up even when you didn't want to? Yeah. Although the irony is like a professional shows up because they're getting paid, and amateurs shows up because they want to, right? There is some interesting tension in those.

Although, when I sort of think of myself, I thought of myself as a professional long before there was any money coming in. Sure. And I think that's the way I never show up because I think I'm going to get paid. Do you? No, no, no, no, I just show up out of kind of a general, I don't know, pride is the right word, but just if I didn't, I would hate myself and I couldn't sleep that night, you know? Well, I think that is the tricky part about writing too.

And a lot of professions, which is like, okay, yeah, if you're a salesperson, you show up today, you make your sale, you pay it or whatever. But as a writer, the contribution of one day or one hour or one month, it's really not possible to quantify, to put a number on it. So it's easy to cheat yourself or to cheat the thing,

because you don't, like, I think about this, like when I say yes to stuff that. It's like cool, it's like, you don't, there's no way to quantify, like, oh, hey, I've been neglecting my work by 10%, or 20%, or exactly, yeah, yeah. Because there isn't the direct correlation between effort output.

It's, the publishable output is a lagging indicator of the day to dayness of the thing. Yeah, but then the other part of that is, if you miss a day, the next day is that much harder, you know? Yep. And you're falling a little bit behind. And you know what I wanted to ask you, how do you in your own mind decide

when non-writing stuff is worthy of your time? How do you separate, how do you compartmentalize it to? Because I'm sort of wrestling a little bit with that myself. Well, I think it's hard, and I think the pandemic, to go to what we were just saying, the pandemic was very illustrated to me because suddenly all the non-writing stuff more or less disappeared. And then I, but I still had a book that I was writing. This is when I was writing Courage. And I felt like I was so much more locked in on that book.

And I feel like it was, I don't wanna say better, but it was, it was illustrative to me. Oh, this is what the opportunity costs of all the things I've said yes to is. So, how do you decide when to say yes and when to say no? Well, I think a big part of it is, like, do I actually want to do it or not? Like, I think realizing that, like, a lot of the stuff, I don't want to do it all, and

I'm just not going to do it. Right. I remember I was working at American Apparel, after I'd written this obstacle to come out, I think I was working at Ego. This is when the company was like in turnaround. I remember getting a ping on my watch that I had a staff meeting to get to or something. I remember thinking, I've written three bestselling books. How many people would kill to be able to be a full-time writer and could financially be a full-time writer, which I could have been at that time. And here I am rushing to a staff meeting because I

can't just fully be proud of that thing. And so a lot of it is like the professional stuff that I do that's not writing is often stuff that I like doing or I think it's complimentary to the writing. But it's hard. And then the third variable is obviously family too, right? Like, I'm a kid. So when I'm saying yes to this stuff, I'm traveling around going places.

Like, I got invited to the Super Bowl. Like, by one of the teams, it was super bowl. And it was like, this would be really cool. But a weekend away meant a disruption of my writing routine, and it also meant like a weekend away from my kids. And I'm not going to, so I say no to a lot of stuff. I say yes to a lot of stuff, but I say no to a lot of stuff because I do have some sense of the opportunity guys,

but what I think was illustrative about the pandemic was suddenly you couldn't say yes to stuff and you realized you didn't miss it when it wasn't there. Yeah, I mean, the pandemic really didn't affect me that much, didn't change my life that much, because my life was already sort of a pandemic type of life. Yes, but very, very, very, very, very, I like that much because my life was already sort of a pandemic type of life. Yes. But you were from home.

Yeah. Yeah. It was a little bit the opposite of yours, like in my early years of writing, when I wasn't making any money and there was no such thing as the internet and everything. I mean, I was really, I looked back on that nostalgicly now, where I was like, you know, committed, I mean, day hours and hours and hours a day and really deeply into it and it's only since like You know social media and stuff as and you're to blame for like turning me on to some of that stuff

But you do have to promote yourself. That's part of it and I have I have problems with that, you know and It's it's stuff that has to be done. There's no doubt about it, and it is fun, but it's a tough choice between yes and no, sometimes, because when you say yes to promoting something or even being out there, you're saying no to actually doing work. Although I guess I would have an

slightly more expansive definition of what the work is, right? So like, one thing I realized is that I love the written word and I love words. Like I am a person who learns and interacts with ideas through the written word, like through, but that is not the primary medium for a lot of people. That's true, true, true.

And so even like physical books, I love physical books, I basically only read physical books. But realizing now as I look at my sales more than 60% of my sales are audio and ebook. So I would not consume either of those mediums, but I would never turn those people away. Right? And so you think those people are either visual learners or audio. Right. And so thinking about how you can reach those people, like let's say one of your books, this is a story of Alex

and the great, this is a story of the Spartans obviously the primary Messy medium for you to deliver that was by you know this book But if you could just tell someone that story that would also be meaningful to you right like So I guess what I'm saying is I don't I don't limit myself to the ideas in the in the books as only being books I believe in them enough that I want to talk about them in all the different mediums that people are willing to consume them in. And ultimately, I know that that comes back to books. When we had Jack Carr here,

I remember I was talking to one of his readers out front and they were like a trucker or something like that. And they were like, I hadn had read a book since high school and someone told me to read one of his books and I started listening to it in an audio book on my drives. And they're like, now I've read everything that he's done, read, everything he's done, plus they've read, my stuff they've been in love with reading

because they didn't think they liked reading, but they really what they didn't like was physical books. Does that make sense? So I think about like, what is my job as a person who has something that I think is worth sharing, all the different mediums that I can do that with? Like if I give a talk to someone, like let's say a group of people,

and none of them read the books, but they took the ideas that are in the books and they applied it to their life as a result of the talk. I guess what do I really care? You know what I mean? The time that I spent writing the book was not wasted because I couldn't have given the talk without the book. Ah, I get it.

I sort of from a different school. Okay, you know, to me it's sort of the experiences in the book, you know, rather than if I were just talking about it, it wouldn't be the same thing. The experiences in the actual, the way the thing is laid out, the way the lines run, that kind of thing. I'm a consumer of the written word just like you. But I mean, if you think about it like this, it's like, let's say you come up with a story and it's a book. And then that book gets adapted into a movie and then a TV show and then it's a radio thing

and then it's a Broadway play. These are all shoot offs of the same original idea and they're like the creative process, the satisfaction from you was in creating it for a book, but those other mediums are still valuable extensions of... I agree with that. It's like talking about it is another thing that that's not the same thing. I get it.

I just want to say something to you here. Thank you for when I came here two or three years ago, whenever it was, we're here, this is the camera, right? We're here at Ryan's bookstore, the painted porch, and he was kind enough a couple of years ago, I came here and said, just please explain to me, what is social media, what is marketing, and stuff like that, and the stuff that you told me really made a difference, really changed.

That's amazing. Everything, yeah. I don't know if you know how much it changed, it changed things a lot for me. Really helped, yeah. But that's very cool to hear. I mean, I've been a huge fan of your stuff for a very long time, obviously, so that I could pay it back in any way. It's helped me tremendously, yeah.

I mean, to me, I just think about these mediums as being very powerful mechanisms for delivering the stuff that I think is really important. But at the end of the day, I always have to remind myself that driving engine is the writing of the books. And not only is the driving engine the writing of the books, that's the one I like doing the most. So if the reward for being successful at what you do is that you don't have very much time to do that thing anymore,

that's not success. Yes. If LeBron James doesn't have very much time to do that thing anymore. That's not success. Yes. If LeBron James doesn't have time to play basketball, he's doing something wrong. Yeah. Especially when there's some argument that you can only do that thing for a limited amount of time. Yeah.

And how much time, how are you going to spend that window? Yeah. I was thinking, I was reading, do you know Dan Sullivan is the, he's a kind of a mentor to us. Yes, it is. And I was reading one of he does these little books, you know, and it was about your attention and where you put your attention, you know, and I really, I had never really thought about that before.

And this, this will go, see if you agree with this. So I was, as I'm listening to something kind of myself, where do I put my attention? And I think that where my attention goes when I'm really doing it right, like if I'm writing a book like Gates of Fire or something like that, my attention goes to that world that is being created kind of through me,

but not by me in the moment. You know, so when I sort of liken it to and see if you agree with this, writing a book to me is a little bit like going into a great cavern, and you've got a little one of those miners lights on, and there's a big thing in there. It's already there. And you're sort of exploring almost like the painted things at Les Goh or whatever it is. And so that, to me, is where my attention is and where I want it to be. It's not in the real world. You know? And when I, obviously, I live in

the real world, so I have to come out of that. But like you say, if LeBron James doesn't get to play basketball, he's not LeBron James. And so anything that takes me away from that, and a lot of it's my fault for saying yes to things that I shouldn't say yes to, is not healthy for me, and I'm not doing what I was put here to do. On the other hand, you can obviously do that too much. But that was kind of an insight to me that I hadn't thought about before.

Yeah, I think that's right. And I like to think about it. It's like, what are the things that only you can do? And what are the things that if you didn't do them, someone else would do them? Right? So like, if you're easily replaceable in a certain task or a certain opportunity, then it's probably not the right thing for you. Like, I think about this with a team that I built out, it is like, if I don't write, no one will write those things. But if I don't sweat about the taxes, someone's asking the sweat about the tax, I'm like, so what are the tasks?

I have a story in the new book on Discipline and Destiny where Harry Bell Affonte calls Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King is not there and Martin Luther King's wife answers the phone and they're trying to have this conversation and she keeps getting interrupted, she's gotta put dinner in the oven, kids are crying, what over and over again.

And finally, he's like, Coretta can ask you a question, and she's like, yes, he's like, this is gonna be sensitive, but do you have any help? And she's like, what do you know, what do you mean?

And I'm like, why don't you have like a housekeeper and a maid and an assistant and a chauffeur and bubble and she's like well Martin would never allow that. And he's like this ends right now, like I'm hiring a staffer. You totally get Martin Luther King's reservations. He's a minister, he's serving. He feels weird that he would be enriching himself,

like spending money from the donors on these sort of personal service things. But he's like, you guys are out there leading this movement. You can't be worried about whether there's milk in the fridge. And so I think about like, what are the things that only you can do? Like only Martin Luther King could go to jail

as Martin Luther King. Somebody else could pick his kids up from school or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think I think about that one on like the micro level like do you have you built out a team around you to help you do what you do? And uh, and then uh, secondarily like what are things that don't need to be done at all in meditation's marks really says ask yourself, at every moment, is this task essential? And he says, if it's not essential,

not only do you eliminate inessential things, but you get the double benefit of doing the essential things better. And so, like, how often, like people, they're like, I don't have time for social, I'm an author, I'm an artist, I don't have time for social media. And then you're like, I don't have time for social, I'm an author, I'm an artist, I don't have time for social media. And then you're like, you call them

and you're like, what are you doing? And they're like, oh, I'm just at the grocery store. And it's like, well, you know, you should be doing social media and you should be using, you know, like door dash to your groceries or whatever. Actually, you're opening my mind a little bit here because I'm thinking like social media

there is something that only you can do. I really want to see you on the thing. I don't want to see something delegated. You know? The other thing like in my book, The Lion's Gate about the 67 Israeli War, that was one of the things most you'd die on. The great Israeli general said, I don't want to do anything that somebody else can do. I want to do only those things that I can do and that no one can replace me. And he's absolutely

right. Yeah. Plutarch's line was a leader has to be able to do anything, but can't do everything. So it's like, if you don't know how all this stuff work like part of the reason I also feel like I can effectively Delegate let's say tasks on social media or part of is like I know How to do it and I know what I wanted to look like so I can explain how that is but I don't think I could explain How someone could write for me like only really I can All right, so going back to Put your ass for your heart once again. There, you recommended this John Steinback book

to me, Journal of Anop. Journal of Anop. And he had a line in there where he's talking about Daudley Days, I think it's a made-up word he had, but it was the same thing. The Days where you're not feeling it, where it's not coming. And you talk about this in the book

where you're basically like, you don't expect perfection of yourself, you just have to show up and spend the time, that's it. So it's talked to me about having, it's like a high bar and that I have to do it every day, but it's a low bar, it seems like you're saying that you don't have to do it well every day. Ah, the Bahamas.

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Follow Spellcaster wherever you get your podcast. Hey, prime members, you can listen to episodes Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today. I mean, most of what we do is not so great, right? It's certainly like the first time through. But what's really hard to me is sitting there and staying there, you know, the other thing that I have found, in other words, I don't try to, and I'm sure you're the same way, I don't torture myself with, is this good? You know, as I'm writing a sentence, I'm writing a paragraph.

The main thing is just to keep the ball moving. And at the end of the day, and I know at the end of the week, at the end of the month, you're gonna have something. You might have to redo it. The big danger for me is falling off the wagon, is losing the momentum. That's the most important thing to me in a book,

is keeping going, I'm a big me in a book is keeping going. I'm a big believer in multiple drafts of things. I don't know how many drafts you write, but I will write 15, 16, 17 drafts. So when I'm on draft two or three, I'm not torturing myself about, is this great? I'll get the words right, you know, on the 17th crack. But my really, my only thing each day is, am I going to sit my ass down and put in the time? And I think that applies to anything, physical fitness, anything at all. Why do you think about that? It's like, if it exists, I can edit it to be good. If it does not exist, I cannot edit it.

Right, exactly. There's no such thing as writing, there's only rewriting. Yes. Well, do you like that rule? It's like a couple crappy pages a day. Have you heard that? I do like that. Yeah. Or there's another thing that somebody told me it was like,

start a sentence with, and the bad version, maybe you even told me this, and the bad version is, and then you start writing it. And sure enough, the bad version is, and then you start writing it. And sure enough, the bad version becomes a good version after about 10 times. I've talked about this. One of the things I do is, so I have a research assistant that helps me

and obviously editors also. So as I'm writing a sentence, I might go, I don't even sometimes complete the sentence. I don't even sometimes complete the sentence. Like, let's say I was talking about, you talk about Moshe Diane. So I was, let's say I knew something about him and I'd be like, Moshe Diane in the midst of the, and I'm like, wait, is the war in 65?

Yes, yes. I would just say, in insert, blah, blah, blah, and I'll come, I feel in the details later. So I don't even want to do the momentum of like stopping to get the facts, right? Because the facts can always be corrected, but the gist of the sentence or the momentum of what you're trying to put down is more important

than like getting it perfect. Yes, exactly right, in my opinion. It's the magic of TK to come, but the other thing in all sort of seriousness, and I'm just thinking about this as we're talking about it, when I'm working on a scene or something, there's always a level of fear that you're going into,

and that makes you want to stay on the surface and not sort of really, you know, imagine yourself into that moment or push whatever's gonna happen in the moment. And so that's why I agree with you, Ryan, that if you noodle around too much with, is this the right word? You, that's an excuse to give into that fear,

much better to write some shitty sentence that does go into the, that shines that light on the dark spot, because you can always come back to it. Yeah. And it is, it's crazy, I don't know to talk about fear and writing, but I think it's huge. It's a big, big part of it. And it's very overcoming that fear is everything. Very few people would, and maybe that's what's so insidious about it. Very few people would characterize their perfectionism or wanting to get it right as being based in fear. Because

they're like, no, I just care so much. But that's actually what it is. It's prevent the surface is more comfortable. So if you get bogged down, you're comfortable. True. I would say it's a form of resistance. It's a diabolical voice of resistance telling you, oh, get that sentence right, man, get it right. And what it's trying to do is to keep you from getting deep. That's right.

Yeah, there's a turning talking about writing here. This is interesting. Well, there's a Bible verse that I was, I heard recently, I'm pushing it, but it's something about how when you're plowing a field, if you look back to see the field that you plowed, you're not fit for the kingdom of God. This is the thing. And I was trying to think about what that means, and then I think what it is, is that if you're plowing,

so your force is pulling the plow, you're standing behind it. If you stop to look back to see if it's straight, right? It will, you'll lose, it will curve in the future. So the paradox there is by inspecting or feeling proud of or trying to fine tune what you just did, you're not only is it already done, so it doesn't matter. Right, yeah. You're actually costing your, like, now the horse is

veering to the left or right, because you've taken your attention off the task in front of you, which is the most important thing. Yeah, and say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great, great, I agree. Plutar probably said that. No, it isn't the Bible. Oh, it's in the Bible, yeah, yeah.

But the idea that you just show up, do the thing, don't sweat it too much, it's weird. It's almost like also, though, by saying, I'm just going to stay on the surface, I'm just going to do it. You're actually giving yourself the freedom to go into it deep because if you're, it's like when you're conscious, when you're too conscious about what you're trying to do, you almost block yourself from doing it. All right, yes. And I would say, when I'm not trying to say, stay on the surface and not worry about,

I'm saying go deep, but just don't worry about getting every comma right. Yes, that's right. Yeah, Churchill said the other way to spell perfection is paralysis. Ah, yeah, yeah. that was in your book about discipline. I think so. Yes So which is a great book by the way. Thank you. Thank you. So Here's an interesting thing. So I was thinking about this too though So I wasn't feeling good and I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna force myself to do it

There is this part of me also that feels like sometimes I rush things. So instead of being like, you have time, take a day by day, you know, pace yourself, how do you think about the difference between like, I gotta do it every day, no exceptions, and also pacing yourself, load management, you're in this for the long haul. I'm definitely a load management kind of a guy, I mean, because any kind of a book is like a

year, two years, three years or something like that. And you'll drive yourself insane if you put too much of a deadline. And for me, I've always been a spec writer. I haven't really done things on deadlines for publishers or anything like that. So I just say, it's going to take two years, it's going to take three years, take your time and do it. Right. And three years is a lot of days, and not a lot of days, there's a lot of power in those days, you know?

Yeah, I just, like, I was thinking about this, I was, both my kids refused to nap in their beds, they only nap in the car. Really? And so, so you're like, okay, I got an hour, like I need to drive them around for an hour. Right, while they sleep. And then I found myself driving fast. And I was like, but I don't have anywhere to go.

Like, like why am I, like I was driving my, someone was asleep, so put aside the safety issue of it, which is also real. But I'm driving and I'm getting frustrated that the person in front of me is driving below the speed limit. And I had to catch myself and go, but I don't have anywhere to be.

Literally the whole purpose of what I'm doing is to kill one hour of time. And here I am trying to get that one hour done fastest. And so I kind of think about that with writing too, where it's like, why am I, like I gave myself a year on this, why am I wondering if I'm behind schedule? Or even the one year is just a made up estimate.

Like it takes what it takes, right? Yeah. And when you get to the end, then you're at the end. But there is, if you're, I think, driven or ambitious or a pro, there's this part of you that wants to just also just do it. And that there's a tension there because rushing almost never produces good work.

No, it doesn't. And let i don't know they'll ask you a whole other question where do you see yourself ten years from now what are you i mean you've been on a kind of a role here following a certain course where did we're still about that no i mean uh... i'd like to just weirdly i'd like to be doing the exact same thing ten years from now uh... uh... like if you'd ask me ten year at my first book came out exactly 10 years ago this month.

And so if you said 10 years in the future, you'll still with my wife, I'm still writing books, I'd be like, that's the dream. You know, like, there's not like a, this isn't like a means to an end. So to go to the point about like that. So there's no need to rush then. Right, exactly. Like I want it, and it may actually be the opposite. There's a significant reason to pace yourself

and think about, hey, if you burn yourself out, you won't be able to do this in theaters. So I kind of think about like that. You know, Diana and I took a driving trip, I don't know when was it like a year ago or less than a year ago to some of the places that I used to work in North Carolina and Kentucky and places like that for a book

because I wanted to see, you know, remember where things were and of course everything was gone. You know, every building was gone, everything was gone. And it made me think, it's not subject of going slow rather than racing. How I wish I had paid attention more to what I was doing and what was happening at the time. And this is even a side by this was the era. I've never been a photograph taking person. And this was before iPhones and stuff like that. So I have these periods of my life that were like really important to me. And I don't have a photo of anything. I don't have a picture of any of the people that I knew.

I don't have a picture. And I also, you know, I have them here, but not as much as I wish I had them, you know? And I don't know whether it's apropos of any. No, they're just taking it. You know, I look around here. You can't really see you guys. Can't see what's out here. It's a wonderful little alley with a bunch of little stores that are kind of funky old buildings and cabins. And, you know, I'm trying to sort of take this in, you know. And what we're doing here too, you know. Well, there's this stoic practice that Mark's really gets from Epic teetuses.

As you tuck your child in at night, you should say to yourself, like, they will not make it to the morning. And so there's a haunted tragicness to that in that Mark Serelyse loses like six children before they become adulthood. You imagine just how terrible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I don't think that's actually what the exercise was about. I think what he was saying is, if that is true, you would not actually what the exercise was about. I think what he was saying is, if that is true, you would not rush through the evening, right? So why are you trying to get this over with? And I think about that with books too. I like doing this.

This is meaningful to me. I like being in this world. This is the dream. What's gonna happen when I finish this one, I'm just gonna start another one. So why am I rushing through this or anything? Because I guess the Stokes would say when you're rushing, where are you rushing towards?

Yeah, right. Like you're rushing away from now, towards a thing that, yes, towards the next thing, what's after the next thing? What's after the, there's only one thing towards the next thing, what's after the next thing? What's after the, there's only one thing after the next, next thing. So you might as well slow down and be here for the thing while you're in it, whatever that thing is,

even if that thing is washing the dishes, you do that at the airport. I mean, I have to do that reminder, or I won't do that, right? Do you journal in the evenings? I know you're a big journaler in the morning, like when you put your kids to bed, do you take a the evenings? I know you're a big journaler in the morning like when you put your kids to bed Do you take a moment and I usually I usually?

I usually so I when I do my journaling I'm usually reviewing the last day in the morning So I'm thinking about I see I sometimes I'll do both but oftentimes I just don't have the time to do two different sets of the thing But yeah, I think taking a minute, like I have one journal where I just write one thing a day that I'm grateful for, so that's kind of a moment. But yeah, I'm usually reflect a good chunk of the journaling I'm doing is about reflecting on the day pass. I this other journal I do that's one line a day and I just write one line about, I usually am doing the day before, so what I love about that is it's I have it in the book store I'll show to you but it's five lines on each page.

And you know it's gonna ask you how do you keep this do you have like no books and well it's so it's what it's called the one line a day journal and each page has five slots on it So you keep this journal for five years And so what I love about like this is in early June. I'm looking at it I'm like, oh, this is when I started stillness on this day Two days later one year later. I started lives with it like I Realized I was sort of almost unconsciously on a schedule

of starting a book on this day, five years in a row. Wow. And what I really like about it is, obviously, like those cool anniversaries are helpful, but like, it'll be like, oh, like on this day, two years ago, I was in the middle of this chapter of this book and I was having a hard time. And now I don't even think about that. And I'm very proud of that chapter. You just realizing that like you were whatever this point was, you were at the, you've been at this point before.

Yeah. Just sort of is what it is. Yeah. And you just, at the end of the, with the next time it just becomes a little inch in the journal. That was a great part in your book. You know, discipline is destiny. Your new book that's coming out at the very end. Ryan kind of takes a part, takes a chapter or an epilogue to kind of describe his own feelings as he's writing the book. And it was really hard. And you were in a state of despair, as you say. And I know like same thing for me, like I don't journal what I should. But you do the blog, I feel like you're publicly journaling about what you're struggling with.

But I don't write anything. Like when I look back to, you know, book four, book five, book six, I know there were periods that were really, really, really hard. And when I'm struggling in something now, I wish I could sort of flash back to that and sort of that earlier person could say, relax a little, it's always like this,

this isn't the first time you're doing this thing. Well, as I was writing in that afterward, I was thinking, I was like, I think I'm gonna have to ask for an extension. And that seemed like such a huge, and in retrospect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why do I, like, you need an extension? But everybody seems to go a huge, and in retrospect, like, what do I, like, if you need an extension,

but everybody seems to go through that, yeah. Like, it is what it is. Yeah. And so there, I think part of the irony of discipline or the daily practice that you're talking about is that it can also become a compulsion, right? And it's not always the healthiest. Like someone's like, hey, you know, like, can you come,

like I really need your help on this thing. You're like, no, I have to do my daily practice. And like six months later, you're like, I should just help that person. What do I need? Like, I could have skipped the thing from, you know, like you have to be careful, I think, too, that the ritual doesn't become like OCD or something.

Although I'm the other school, I look back and I say, why did I help that person? Did they really get anything out of it? Did they really do anything? You know, me, Mollum, school to myself up. Yeah, although I read this book about Tom Brady called Better to Be Feared, and they were saying that,

like I couldn't understand why he left the New England Patriots to go to Tampa Bay. And like because I mean you're on the best team in the history of sports with the best coach in the history of sports. And one of the arguments that the author, I think it's Seth Quickersham from ESPN and he was saying that basically Tom Brady's wife was like, this is Giselle, she was like, you can keep playing football as long as you want, but it should not be so painful. Like it shouldn't be so torturous every day to do this thing. And part of, he was like, I want to go to a city where the weather isn't terrible.

I want to be a slightly less ruthless environment. I want it to be more, you know? And so part of his decision to go there, it wasn't, it was to play it in a slightly more balanced sustainable environment, which is, that's different than Kevin Durant leaving the warriors to go to Brooklyn. Right.

Yeah. This is, I think this is making a big change for better reasons. Mm-hmm. And you're an energizing night- Why is it related to the art work? Like, it doesn't have to be awful. Uh-huh. Like, the discipline and the practice of it should not make you miserable.

Uh-huh. And if it doesn't, I like the awfulness of it. No, no, I think it should the practice of it should not make you miserable. And if it doesn't, I like the awfulness of it. No, I think it should be part of it, but I guess the point is, it's not that I don't. You've been doing it for 25 years and you hate every day of it. Is that really winning?

You know, like, or is it winning if to be good at the thing? You give up happiness. I mean, did Tom Brady really hate it? I mean, I think for, must be the same for you for me It's a discipline. It's a I have to overcome my own resistance So that's hard. Yeah, just like if you were running or training at the gym or whatever it is but

It's a joy to do once once you're in the cold pool and you're doing it But I guess his point was it could be a joy and pleasant at the same time. You know what I mean? Like it doesn't- If it's cold weather versus warm. I'm sure it's, I mean football is a grueling sport. So I'm sure playing for Tampa is not like, you know, it's not fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's still a grind to it. His, I think his point was like, it, if you're, and I've talked to other athletes about this too, like, when they all look back on their career, they go like, I do wish I had more fun while I was doing it. Because they were taking it so seriously, they were sucking the joy out of the day to day of stuff it, which is, to me, the same thing.

Like, if you're doing that, you're probably doing something. Yeah, it's like what I was saying about not paying attention in earlier years, because I was so concerned with, you know, doing a about or even know your sales numbers? I haven't even figured out how to do it yet. So that's probably a good place to be, right? You write what you want to write, you do what you want to do, and you don't think about how it's doing. I don't. It's like which Cassidy said,

as long as we're, what did he say, long as we break even or whatever, you know? Yeah, I really just want my goal is just to be able to keep doing it, you know? That like the movie we were talking about saved the tiger, where they asked him what does he want? He said, another season. Yeah, that's what I want is another season. Yeah, I remember I was talking to Casey Neistat, the YouTuber ones, and he said something like,

he was like, the point of making money is to use it to make more work. Ah, ah, yeah. Like, because if you were really just after money, you would work in an ad agency or something. He was saying the point of making the money is to be able to fund the projects that you want to be able to make. So, obviously, you have to have some level of success

if you can't do it anymore. But there is, I do think as I've gone on, as I've done more books, I also, like people ask me how many books I've written and I have to think about it, which I also really like. I have this thing where, like, if you don't forget what day it is, you don't like your job. You know, like if you lose track of what day it is, you don't like your job. You know, like if you lose track of what day it is, that's a good sign that you're doing something closer to what you should be doing.

Yeah, yeah. Same with the pandemic, we're like time, you see, the only way I know is going to the gym and we'll be looking to Sunday when I don't have to go. That's gonna be good. Yes. But yeah, as I've done more, like I care less about how it does, one, I think because I have a longer time span.

Like I've seen books that didn't do good at first, do good later. I also understand that I'm measuring over a longer period of time, so it really doesn't matter how it does in year one. What matters is, do you have seven years of pretty good years? That adds up to a large number. And also, I think you get to a point two where like, if you've proven that you can do it, it doesn't mean that much to you to do it again. If that makes sense.

Yeah. Do you ever worry that you're losing a step or that you can consider, I'm just getting better and better and better. I mean, I guess you assume you're always getting better at it, but you don't know. And it is helpful if people are like, no, this is like really good. Yeah, yeah.

That's nice, but yeah. Into the next level, get there. I do envy people in sports because they have such a clear sense of winning or losing or whether they're getting faster or, you know, numbers, right? They have to be measured. Yes. And I feel like when writers try to apply numbers, they're almost always getting, the numbers in writing of people like, I do a thousand words a day. It's like this is made up.

I feel like the numbers in almost every other profession are counterproductive. Yeah, it's like actors say you know with the actors should not be competing against each other. Yeah, and from the Academy Awards because how can you compare one performance to another? Both great. I like that level. I like how comedians just think about it in term of stage time. Like how or how many nights, or how many nights a week, or you're getting up, or how many times a night, or you're getting up, they're just thinking about it in terms of doing it. And I guess you're just, the assumption is that the more you do it, the better you get at it.

Which I think is true. I guess sometimes I'm wondering if I'm not holding something back, but your point about surface level is true. It's like, how do you know? I think as I've gotten better at what I do, I've discovered ways where you can kind of cheat, right? Like where you can, it's a form or a and like am I Do I guess you ever think about that like am I am I really pushing myself am I really breaking new ground?

Or am I just doing the same thing over and over again? Yeah, I do think about that and sometimes I blame myself and I do do that, you know, yeah, but But I think most of the like even if you are are doing that, sometimes that's a way to get to the head space or the moment where you suddenly you get through and you do do something better. Another thing I've been thinking about lately is the difference between hour one and hour three when you're working on something that because lately I haven't been able to do like a four hour day or something like that. And when you get into that fourth hour, when you really are getting deep into something,

you know, you've been into it so far in your head that stuff appears in the fourth hour, that doesn't appear in hour one. And I haven't been in that fourth hour a while. I tend to do it like so I'll do like two or three hours. Like that's like a good day for me in the morning. I'll do that and then it'll be like, I'll be on a bike ride or a run in the afternoon, like several hours later. And then something will click and that, I'll write it down on a no-car or whatever

and that will be the thing that goes in there. And I just think about how much of my books are those sentences. Or like, ah, this is the perfect way to tie these two things together. And that really, so if I don't do the surface level three hours in the morning, I'm not setting myself up for the gereka moment in the bath later. And really, it's the gereka moment in the bath that's everything, but you can't have one without the other. True.

Yeah, it's the work that sets up that moment. Yeah. There's a story that I was reading. I think I'm gonna try to use it in the book that I'm doing now because I'm doing this book on justice. There's a rabbi. He wrote that book when good things happened to bad people. I forget I know the book, but I... And he was saying that as he sits, because I was thinking about you putting your ass

where your heart wants to be, but also the prayer you say to the muses each morning. So he doesn't do that, but every morning when he sits down to rights, and I guess he's not a full-time writer, so maybe he doesn't do it every day, so it makes more financial sense. But the point is, every day when he sits down to right before he writes a word, he gets out his checkbook and he writes a small check to a charity. But he picks a different charity each time. And the point is he's making a donation or an offering, he's saying, to the muses or to God

or to the person that he wants to be, and that this is setting the tone for the writing day. That's really interesting. And I think I want to start doing that, but it reminded me of how you think about it. Ah, yeah, I don't write a check, but I definitely believe that you need a moment of putting your ego aside. Like Mr. Rogers or whoever's words of hangers a little cardigan on the hook, you know, when he goes in there.

And he sings a song cardigan on the hook, you know when he goes in there. And that's the thing that... That's the thing that changes the issue. Yeah, you know. And I'm at the service of something else. My ego is not a part of this thing. And you know, help me, you know? The, I talked about this in stillness, I think. At Mr. Rogers, to me that operative part

of the opening of that thing is, the first thing that you see is the flat, it shows the house and zooms in and then it's the flashing yellow light of the trolley car, which a person who knew him was saying that he was saying, like, slow down, like caution, slow down. And so I think that, to me, that's that offering is, or that headspace is, the ritual of it is like, I'm entering a special place, I'm slowing down, I'm leaving behind what I would normally, you know, I'm changing into my work clothes

or whatever the thing is, then I'm going in, going into the mind. But I do think the, if you think about like, before a battle, the Spartans are whomever they're sacrificing the goat or the offering to the gods, right? It's a sign of obedience or submission. It's a gift because you're wanting something in return. That's what the prayer is about.

And it's also, this is really interesting. I love to think about this, and I can't even, they're also when they're sacrificing, they're really saying, is this an auspicious time for us to go out there and risk our lives? Yeah, so they're definitely a believer that there's another dimension out there. Like, I'll tell you a long story, we've got time here.

Yeah. I was in Africa, and we went to visit the mass eye out in this place where you had to fly in a helicopter to get there because there was no roads. This story takes a few minutes to bear with me. And when we got there, there was the middle of the day and it was a camp. And there was a cattle and all the women and everything like this. And we had just the shaman had just done something and he said, we got to move the camp. And sure enough, like in order to move the camp, they first had to collect all the cattle

and they had to get the white cattle first. And like they weren't all in one place. It was like this family and one this place. So it was a production and everybody had a break down their tents and they all did it in a very good spirit. You know, nobody was bitching in on. break down their tents and they all did it in a very good spirit. Nobody was bitching and all that. And when they finally moved, they only moved like 300 feet up there. And I thought, you know, at the time, you accepted completely. But then I

thought to myself, what did the shaman see? What was happening? I wish I could have talked to the guy then. What was bad there that was okay, 300 feet away. So, when the Spartans are taking the omens, it's the same sort of thing. And I think in a lot of ways, the artist's life is about that dimension, that world that we don't see, that the shamans saw. And the tricks of like taking

the omens and the entrails of a, you know, a pigeon or whatever, why does that tell you, what, you know, but I swear to God, there's something there, you know, even though we laugh at it now, oh, it's isn't a quaint that they, you know, but there's something there like the Spartan army. In fact, I know you know this. How would a march out must take in terms of getting everything together, the equipment, the armor, the mental saying goodbye to the family. They'd go to the border of Lecettamon, take the omens, and if they were bad, they'd turn around and went back. So, you know, it's amazing.

Yeah, it's, I mean, Elizabeth Gilbert calls it like the big magic or whatever. If you accept it, once you sort of humble yourself I go, and this isn't me, there's something happening here then the other stuff doesn't feel so silly anymore. Because you're like, it already is something weird about it. Yeah, it's like,

writing that check is not a dumb thing. It's magic. Yeah. So I think it's in the artist journey. You take like Bruce Springsteen, you're like, here's all Bruce Springsteen's albums. He's like, clearly, you're like, he's going through something.

You like list the catalog of the artist's work. So, if you were to list the catalog of your work, what do you think it is that you're working out? Like, if you can do that in your head and you look at all the books, and it's kind of a magical thing to be able to look at the body of work that way, what strikes you about what you've done?

That's a great question. I have done it, but not as deeply as I should, but there definitely is a theme there. And the theme I think is that it's a Marcus Aurelius theme. Life is a battle and a journey far from home, you know? Yeah. And that, whether it's the internal battle or an external battle, I think that's sort of what I'm exploring. And if I can say something,

I was thinking if I read your book last night, Discipline is Destiny, there was something that I wanted to say, it's another long thing, and I go over your long thing, you're good time. It's like, what's the purpose of discipline? Like you and I are very disciplined guys. If anybody watched us get up in the morning, they would say, wow, which I could do that.

But they also might say they're crazy to be, you know, lash out themselves like they are. But, okay, here's my long version of it. I believe that life operates on two levels. I know you know, this is my, you know, and the higher level is the muse level. The level we were just talking about that the shaman saw, the level of your calling of your work, whatever that is. And the lower level is our material plane. And on that lower level is the force that

I call resistance with a capital R that's there to stop us from reaching this higher level. And if we don't reach this level, or we don't do our work, we don't follow our calling, then we get sick and we do bad things and shit happens, right? So what is the purpose of discipline? Discipline is what takes you to that higher level.

That's right. That's why you have to have it. You can't wish your way there, you can't chant your way there, you can't, whatever was that book of the secret, you can't wish your way there, you can't chant your way there, you can't, whatever was that book of the secret, you can't buy it there. Yeah, the law of attraction is not going to get it's bullshit. The only way you get there is through hard work because the beings that inhabit this higher level, the way you want to associate with, that's the only thing they respect. You know, you've got to punch your ticket and pay the price.

Discipline is not a bad thing. You're not crazy to work, to be self-discipline because that's what gets you to this higher level and also gets you to just live your life so that when the day is over, you're calm. You're not freaking out as some of us have in the past. That's beautiful. I love it. Well, Stephen, thank you very much. Yeah.

So that's why everybody buy discipline is this. And likewise, the notebook, put your ass where your heart wants to be is incredible. As always, I've loved all your stuff. And thank you so much. All right. Thank you for everything you've done for me. You don't even know the things that you've done for me.

Well, I thank you for what we're talking for giving me off of your book, The Daily Stoic, the idea of doing a me doing a book. Oh, yeah, when is that coming out? It was all involved, it's come next year at the earliest. Amazing. But thank you for that, even though we haven't.

It's done. That was very much a selfish suggestion so I could read it. Ah, okay, well I hope you like it when I will. I will, I hope so. You know, the Stoics in real life met at what was called the Stoa. The Stoa, Poquile, the Painted Porch in ancient Athens. Obviously, we can't all get together in one place.

Because this community is like hundreds of thousands of people, and we couldn't fit in one space. But we have made a special digital version of the stoa. We're calling it daily stoic life. It's an awesome community. You can talk about like today's episode. You can talk about the emails, ask questions. That's one of my favorite parts is interacting with all these people who are using stoicism to be better in their actual

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