The Daily Stoic - Steven Pressfield On Work Without Attachments (Part 1)

Episode Date: November 11, 2023

Ryan speaks with book athour & screenwriter Steven Pressfield on fewer possessions, superstition in memorabilia, the impact of working without any attachments to the outcome, and his new books The Daily Pressfield. Steven is an American author of historical fiction, non-fiction, and screenplays. He’s most known for The War of Art, Do The Work, Turning Pro, Gates of Fire, and Government Cheese. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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you make your first purchase of $20 or more using the code daily stoic 20. Hello, I'm Hannah and I'm Seruti and we are the hosts of a Redhanded, a weekly tree crime podcast. Every week on Redhanded, we get stuck into the most talked-about cases. But we also dig into those you might not have heard of, like the Nephiles Royal Massacre and the Nithory Child Sacrifices. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behaviour. Find, download, and binge Red-handed wherever you listen to your podcasts.

Everyone leaves the legacy. For some, the shadow falls across decades, even centuries. But it also changes. Reputations are reexamined by new generations who may not like what they find. Picasso is undeniably a genius, but also a less than perfect human. From Wundering and Goldhanger podcasts, I'm Afwahersh. I'm Peter Frankapan. And this is Legacy.

A brand new show exploring the lives of some of the biggest characters in history. To find out what their past tells us about our present. Venus Amon was constantly told to sit down and shed up your angry black woman. The name of Napoleon still rings out in the pattern of the guides who thrive on the tourist trade. Search and follow Legacy to listen to the full trailer. Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom.

And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holliday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoke Podcast. I am recording

this in my closet the night before it's supposed to go live. Routine got a little bit disrupted today, but it was all good. My wife's birthday is tomorrow, so we actually went out to dinner at a place recommended, raved about, in in fact by a previous podcast guest Tom Sagarah It's actually right down the street from right on the highway really from the bookstore. It's called sushi by scratch Unreal good. Unreal good. It's like this. It's this tiny little ten-seat sushi restaurant. They only do like three shows basically a day. Anyways, super, super good. And then I'm back to give this to the producer just in time for it to go live. So bear with me. But this episode doesn't need much

in the way of an introduction because the guest is the most popular repeat guest in the history of the show. He's been on the most times out of anyone. And yet I still feel like there's more to talk about even though we did another two hours just a week or so ago. By the way, this will be a two-part or so you get part two next week. But the one and only Stephen Pressfield. Stephen came to the painted porch right when we were beginning. Like before we'd even started the demo of what set up the construction.

So he did it in what's now the record store. You can see a video of it on YouTube. And I just sat down and talked, didn't even have heat in the building yet. It was quite freezing if I remember correctly. Then we did some remote during the pandemic. Then we did out back on the on the porch of the painted porch, then we did a walking episode down a long town lake in Austin. Then we may have been one other inside the bookstore. And anyways, this was his first trip to the studio to talk about a book which I'll tell you more about the story of in the intro for part two. All you need to know, Stephen Pressfield has a new book out called The Daily Press Field.

It's a page a day book of the best of Stephen Pressfield. You can buy it at StephenPressField.com. I will be carrying it in the painted porch as well, but he's got this high-end package gift edition available. You can go to StephenPressField.com. It's really good. It's really good. This conversation is really good. If you haven't read The War of Art, Do the War, Turning Pro, Gates of Fire, Government Cheese, Tides of War, Man at Arms, what are you even doing with your life? Steven Pressfield is the best. We had a great conversation in the studio. Check out the Daily Pressfield.

I'll tell you more about it in part two. But for now, here's the first part of my conversation with the one and only Stephen Pressville. I gotta say, Ryan, it's an amazing thing you've done we did one outside, I think. And then we did one walking in Austin. And then we did some inside. And then now this, we didn't even know this would be possible. This building would be possible when we were doing the other two. But all the buildings were built together at the same time.

Did you original, did you own this part before? We got the first two. And then this was third. This was a this was a barber shop. And it's it had been a barber shop for a hundred years. Oh wow. And then four generations of grandfather's. Yes.

It had been a barber shop for very long time. So then it came on. So we did this and we're going to we haven't quite figured out what we're going to do with it. But studio here office space back there. But yeah, what I was telling you inside, it's sort of a thing that you don't want to think about. But it's like, if you ever, if you're stepping into the shoes. In 100% of the kids with a vast majority of cases, it didn't work for someone before you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's vibes there. There's a reason. Yeah. It's foot traffic. It's something. Yeah. It's like you're you're marrying a freshly divorced person. Yeah. And you're you don't want to think about why someone was like, I don't want to be with them anymore. And yet there are so many instances

where a space has failed over and over. And then suddenly it works. Yes. You know? Well, and that is kind of a, like if you think about how often it doesn't work, it's very intimidating. But then if you really start to parse why they didn't work,

you know, it's, you start to see some space in there But then that's a truism in publishing where people go oh books about X don't work Yeah, right, you know because they've had failure after failure in that space and then you want to do it and they're like Of course, it's not gonna work for you, but if you've actually taken the time to think about What is not wrong with work for you, but if you've actually taken the time to think about what is not wrong with the other ones, but why didn't resonate? Maybe you have. Yeah. And sometimes the times come around, you know. And people are ready for whatever it is that didn't work before.

Yes. Yeah, when I was doing the daily dad, I went to my publisher with it maybe four or five years ago. I really wanted to do it. And my publisher just said, Adrian, who you know, just said that parenting books don't sell. And I was like, well, first off, just that's just objectively not true.

Some of the best selling books of all time are parenting books, but but also why is that? And then you have to really think about why that is and then you have to address that in how you do it. Yeah, and also I think Adrian and a lot of other people reflectively say no to shit, you know? Yes. Yes, why I mean they're, they're,

I don't blame them, but they do. Well, their job is to say no. And their job is also say no. Yeah. And their job is also not to say yes to anything that will get them fired. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're right.

So, yeah. So, it's like there, you think they're in the risk taking business, but actually they're in the risk mitigation business. Yes. And so, they don't want to say yes to anything that, that in retrospect makes them look dumb. Yeah.

Yeah. I confess, I have that same mechanism in my head them look dumb. Yeah, yeah. I confess I have that same mechanism in my head, you know. When I have an idea of something, my first response is always, you know. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm a believer that the goddess knows and I don't, you know, and I got to follow that. Yeah. Sometimes why you are called to do a thing is really the only thing that

that you are called to do the thing is what matters. Yeah. And sometimes you get called to do a thing that's very commercially viable and sometimes you're not. Are we on camera? Yeah, we're going, it's as good. It's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, start. Also, I don't think I've ever had a book dedicated to people. Ah, well, you deserve it. You really want to give me the idea for this book. It was a while ago, wasn't it? I feel like this is not. Yeah, this has been sitting around because of, you know,

the ups and downs that my little publishing company, you know, you had been sitting around for quite a while, you know, probably three years ago or something like that. You know, I was having breakfast with Mark Manson like about a week or two ago. And he said, he said, you told him the same thing. He said, hey, you should do a book. I did. That's like a calendar book, you know, today.

So how many of you still tell everybody? I don't, I actually, I remember telling you, I don't remember telling you, but I remember telling you because I wanted to read it. Because like I tend to reread the War of Art or Turning Pro or one of your books, like when I'm about to start a project, it's just like a nice sort of headspace to get into. And then I mean, I've read them so many times. I was just like, you know, it'd be cool if this was like an on and on. Yeah. Every time you blog about that or you do an Instagram post about that, I get a little spike.

So thank you. Yeah. Well, so the other thing is, do you remember last time we talked, I was checking my phone all the time because I was bidding on something? Ah, yes, that's right. It was what's her name's desk, right? This is it. Yeah.

The desk sold for $60,000. Go diddy and so on. The desk sold for $60,000. So did he. And so did he. The desk sold for $60,000. So I did not purchase this, but I did buy this table from her from her. Oh, wow. So this table and the chairs and then my desk chair and my off the chair that I sit at and write. And now it's hers.

Wow. So do you, I mean, do you believe like Jack Car, my friend Jack Car, he has bought Hemingway's typewriter? Really, you know, he doesn't use it, but he has it. Yeah. So I mean, do you believe that they're like vibes in this table that somehow translate? I think I think so. I was a there's this comedian named Christina P and she was like, Joan Diddy and menstruated in this chair. And I was like, that's not what I was thinking about when I got it. But I do, I sometimes I go back and forth, one, should I sit in the chair or not? Like, is it, is it okay to use the chair as a daily chair?

And I say yes. I sit every day in Jordanian's chair and write because I feel like, although I am putting wear and tear over what was a very expensive antique, it's actually the most, even if she would probably look down on my writing, she's very fancy. But to me, it's the way to do honor to the thing.

To have it as a relic is not an insult, but it's to, to me, sitting in and working in it is a continuation of its purpose and of the tradition. Some day people would buy in your chair, so I ended up, you know, I should be able to be able to go on eBay for that. Well, I was, I, we had this chair in our house and I was like, why do we keep this? And then I realized I've written like seven books in this chair. And then I was like, should we get rid of it? And my wife was like, we should get rid of it. I was like, I don't know, maybe we shouldn't get rid of it.

Which is probably the egotistical thing. But I do think there are vibes in it. I think there's vibes in a lot of stuff. And I have like on my desk different, like little, little totems or items that mean stuff to me. Most of them are very, very old. Like what's an example? What do you have?

I have a little Roman tea. This is a Thai wind cuffs. I'll tell you what I'll tell you. So I have a little Roman pen knife. A knife and sometimes I can, you can like, I can cut open the tape of a package with a, you know, with a 2000 year old knife. So this little knife I have, what do I have?

Oh, I have a rock. It's like a stone tool. It's like a rock that a caveman like ships away and turned into like a hand weapon. So it's where did you get that? How was it? I thought it came. It matters that I was

neat, the district, but I bought a priest of the original cross when I was in Jerusalem. Yeah. Yeah. There's a racket of old relics. Yeah. And they found, you know, there's like 10 different claims to the same thing when they, because all these churches have that, you know, this is St. Peter's finger. We add them all up. There's 22 fingers. But, uh, sort of that, um, I have a little memo from Truman where Truman is getting a note from his secretaries as like, dear Mr. President, should I say because of too many requests, the president must decline. And then Truman underlined that and wrote, the proper response is underlined HST. And so it's like a little reminder to say no to things.

But to think like Truman signed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like a more meaning, I could just write no. But there's that. And then I have on my wall, I have the last page from the type written manuscript of gates of fire signed by the author. Wow, that's really valuable. Yeah, I have a bunch of those little totems too. Well, one I have an acorn from Thermopoly, not really the battlefield because there was so much sedimentation it's buried, but it's like a scrollboke he'll slide. So I just picked up and actually I have two of them and I gave one to a

dear friend of mine Jim Gantt, I don't know if he the special forces major and he has a theory to change the subject slightly. He says, when you give a gift to somebody it should hurt you. It should be something where you go, oh god I hate the part for this thing. So I gave him that because he really deserved it. But yeah, I've got a bunch of little things. I have a coin of Alexander the Great, which that's an amazing tree that it still exists. And in fact, wasn't even that expensive. It was like 125 bucks.

And you know, wasn't even that expensive. It was like 125 bucks and you know, really, you know, so I have that. I have various, a friend of mine has sent me sand from Iwo Jima and things, things like that. And he just sent me something from Bellow Wood, Little War I. So I've got a bunch of those things. And I definitely believe it's like a little shrine.

Yes. If you ever visit, you know, I'll show you, you know, I definitely believe, it's like a little shrine. If you ever visit, I'll show you. I definitely believe that it puts out some kind of vibes. I have one that I wear when I do talks. I have a signet ring from a Roman soldier that's still wearable, like a copper signet ring. And just I just try to think about the person who wore this, you know, 1800 years ago, that we have the same size, fingers.

And the cigarette ring is still a style of jewelry that people wear. It is amazing. You know, I could, I could dip it and seal something if I wanted. Yeah. Think of what that ring went through and what it saw. I thought it was like a talk. Yeah. And then on my mirror in my bathroom and Scott like a little sort of thing you can set

stuff on. I have a chunk of a tombstone that I bought on Etsy or something. You know, probably a cemetery got torn apart or craved stone fell apart and they replaced it. And it's just a chunk of a tombstone and the only word on it just says dad. Wow. Wow. And it's just kind of a momentum worry that I think about, you know, I see it, you know,

a couple times a day. Yeah. Somehow it's important for this stuff. You know, I don't know. You can call it superstition, but it reinforces stuff that you want to, want to reinforce, particularly over time, you know, something thousands of years old. Yeah. Well, there's a story about Epictetus. So Epictetus has this little shrine in his house to the gods, and he has this golden or silver lamp, and he's, you know, in bed and he hears

someone rustling, someone is broken into his house. And so, you know, he makes his way down the hallway and a thief has broken in and is in the process of stealing the lamp and he sees him running away with the lamp. And Epictetus says, I'm a fool. You can only lose what you have tomorrow. I will go and buy an earthenware lamp. And his point was that he had this thing that he didn't want stolen because it was valuable. It was the problem with him, not the thief. So he buys a cheaper lamp the next day.

It's kind of a diageny, it's the cynic kind of thing. Like how fewer possessions and you're less vulnerable to fortune or misfortune. And so that's epic., that's his lesson. But then after he dies, an admirer of Epic Titus spends thousands of dollars to buy the Earthenware lamp, which is a stoic lesson, I guess you could say, against this table and the momentos and the rings and the stuff. I think as long as you're, as long as you don't, to me, as long as you're not holding them up

as these priceless relics that, you know, you keep in a safe somewhere, maybe you can kind of split the difference. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can't think of any more relics than I have. That's it for me. No, don't you, I think last time we talked, didn't you have, like, don't you't you have like a World War II bomber jacket?

I do, I don't really think of that as like a real, I use it all the time, you know? Right. I look like Joe Biden when I wear it, you know, it's like. But isn't it cool when you have stuff that's old, but then it still has its tell us, like it's still just what it is. Yeah.

It still works. Exactly. There's something almost, there's something I think sacred in that in almost respectful in it, in that you're putting it to the use for which it was made. Yeah, and you have to have tremendous respect.

Every time I put it on, I think, you know, who wore this thing and whatever it was. And I was, I saw a documentary about, I'm sure you know this, I never did, about, I guess it was the ninth Air Force, the first, the Air Force that were flying missions over Germany. And the reason for those bomber jackets was it got to be like 10 below zero. Yeah. And then, you know, there was no insulation, air conditioning or anything like that. And they were up there for like 10 hours,

five hours, one of my five hours back. And it was cold. Yeah. So, and does yours have a map zone in it? Yeah, it does, yeah. Yeah, also the idea of like, let's so in the lining a map, so if you get shot down,

you know how to get back. And then there was other stuff sometimes sewn in there. Yeah, which I don't even know. Yeah, there was other stuff sometimes sewn in there. Yeah, which I don't even know what it was. Yeah, it was all there's all kinds of stuff in there. Yeah. Actually, that jacket was a friend of mine. And this is and I just admired it. And he took it off and gave it to me. That should the gift should hurt. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it did. Yeah. But it sure meant a lot to me. Yeah. Yeah. I and there's think, like, I have my grandfather's car. It's like a 2000 L Act, which is as no practical value whatsoever. I've spent way too much

money just to keep it operational. I almost never drive it. But it just feel it's like having it. That's another thing that you can still use, right? Sure. It still works. Yeah. It's not exactly practical, you know, for having two young kids. But my favorite part is when you get in, if it's meant for like an old man, the stereo raises up. It just assumes you've got a good belly, you know? But I think just having it,

there is this kind of a way to like keep the tradition a lot or the embodiment of the thing going. That's what that means anyway. I'm Rob Briden and welcome to my podcast, Briden and. We are now in our third series. Among those still to come is some Michael Paling, the comedy duo Egg and Robbie Williams. The list goes on, so do sit back and enjoy. Brighten and on Amazon Music, Wondery Plus or wherever you get your podcasts.

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secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us. Follow Go Story on the Wondry app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes at free right now by joining Wondry Plus. You know, I wanted to, this question I wanted to ask you, so I think I do an idea where we're talking on it. How did you originally meet Robert Green, and how did that whole sort of mentorship thing? I know you were 19. Yes. What told me that story? So I read the 48 laws of power when I was in high school and I was like They made books like this. I think some it's so amazing when you read something and

People have this I think with music more often than books probably where you're like I didn't know that was the thing that you could do them. That was possible to do that and you know, like that. So I read that and it was just, it's such an amazing book because it's a synthesis of so many other books. It's kind of like a survey course of ancient history

and wisdom. So I was working for this other writer, Tucker Maxx, who ran Robert's website at that time. He had kind of like a... Oh! And so Tucker worked for Robert and I got to tag along to a lunch that they had and Robert was complaining about needing research assistant. And how... Where was this now? The Alcove in Los Feliz. Oh! And... This is where Robert lives now.cove in Los Feliz. And this is where Robert lives now. Yeah, and he was complaining about one terrible research assistant after another.

And I remember, when I had read the 40 laws of power, one of the things I went and did after I read it, was I went and read all the books that were in it. Like, and it was this weird exercise for me to go, oh, he just read all these other books. And these are the things that he took out of those. So were you at Riverside then? Yes. You should have a judge.

And so anyways, Robert was complaining about having a needing researches and I said, I'll do it. Like, please, you know, basically, like, how can I do it? And so he gave me a shot and it started like that. Oh, and he would just give you assignments and you would... He had me start, I transcribed hours and hours of interviews that he was doing. He was writing this book with 50 cent. And so he just started sending me files and I would transcribe them and that was sort of the test of whether, you know,

could you give this person a task would they come back with it in a timely way? You know, it's kind of mind blowing how often you'll give someone a shot and you'll be like, send this to me. By next Tuesday or call me on Friday. And like they can't even do that. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Just like, hey, be here at this time. Yeah. And so I think 90% of it was probably just, can you respond? Yeah. And so I transcribed that stuff at first, and then it was sort of like how do you respond? To feedback all that. And then he startedcribed that stuff at first, and then it was sort of like, how do you respond? To feedback all that, and then he started giving me

books that he thought there might be something in, or probably thought there wasn't anything in, but wanted to double check. So it would be like, read this and tell me if there's anything in here that I might use. And so I just sort of worked my way. Now, were you a reader before that, or did that influence you to become the reader

that you are today? I mean, I was definitely reading a lot. Like, I loved reading, and I'd fall in love with reading. But I think that was kind of like, that was graduate school for me. You know, like, because he was having me read stuff that I would never have otherwise read, which would turn me on to stuff.

Like I had to go figure out, it's funny, I was in college when I started and ultimately left work for him. But I had never used the library at my college until he had me go, he was like, I need this and that book wasn't in print anymore. Or, you know, like, I had to make copies. Like, I just use the, we saw the library of the college that I was no longer a student at. I would use Samantha's ID card to do stuff with the library. So, um, I had to figure, I had to figure out how to professionalize.

Uh, yeah, what you would do. I have what I already had. Yeah. Now, were there moments when Robert actually mentored you or sat down and, you know, you would ask him something and he would answer it? Or did it just came sort of organically? The way I kind of conceived of it was I thought, you know,

what would somebody pay for Robert's advice? Like, I knew he had all these sort of clients or CEO, people that would, you know, give him like a monthly retainer, or they'd pay him by the act to like, hey, I have this problem. What is the guy who wrote the 40 laws of power thinking about this, right? And so the way I thought about it was,

it's like I'm earning a certain amount of credits for that, right? And so every time I'd have to go to his house to drop off some papers or something, I'd be like, I'd probably get like one, maybe two questions. And I would go, hey, what's a good book about this? Or I remember one time,

I was like how does the index on a book work you know I was like does the author like I just had all these practical questions about publishing you know yeah like like who how do you have to like keep a running tab as you're writing a book like what you mentioned you know it's like no the publisher takes care of all that. He didn't tell me later, and I didn't realize so later the publisher charges you for that. But so I just asked questions, and then obviously,

you know, like, how do you research books, and he walked me through like his system of no cards, which I still use to this day? So I would just, you know, kind of occasionally pepper in questions, and then I would have career or work questions. And it kind of just went like that. So I do tell people, you know, like in retrospect, he was my mentor or I was his apprentice.

But that's not how it goes. You know what I mean? It's not an arranged marriage. Yeah. You, you know, Benjamin Franklin is his dad sells him to like his older brother. That's how apprenticeships used to go. There was like in the way that weddings were a contract and there was a dowry and all, you know, it's a much more informal organic process. You know, and only as the years go by, is it clear what happened and why it was happening? Yeah. And usually it only counts if it works out. If you go on to do something.

Have we talked at all since I had lunch with him? No. Yeah, I had lunch with him. I probably was like nine months ago or something like that. First time I've ever met him. Yeah. He has, I have a tremendous respect for him. Where'd you guys meet? Over, not in Los Felis, but at the beachwood cafe, beachwood canvass, you know, where that is in LA. Yeah. And it was great.

You know? How do I mean nothing? Nothing particularly came out of it or anything like that. But for me, it was just a pleasure just to meet him and see him in person. Yeah, what do you like about his stuff? First of all, that he, what he does, it's, and it's like you too, he invented that shit completely himself. Yeah. There were no books like that ever. Yeah. And I also utterly relate to his backstory, which I wish I knew more of. I know he had sort of like mine. He had like a million kind of lowball jobs all over the world in Europe, right? And somehow he out of that, he evolved. And I know that he tried being a screenwriter

for a while, he tried being a novelist for a while. And then I guess it was somebody else gave him the idea for 48 laws of power, right? And he had a he had an idea for the 48 laws of power. And that guy fronted him. Uh, Yoast Elfers, who's, oh, that's right. Package on the first three books. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Basically was like, J O O S T, right? Yeah. Yeah. Basically was like, I'll, I'll, I'll stake you for a year. Yeah. It was an expensive bargain, but. Yeah, but God bless them. It's like a VC or something. That's why I admire him that he, that he, his Odyssey is internal Odyssey is so interesting.

Yes. And that, and that how all of a sudden from like being nowhere comes this great thing, right? And now he's on the road and it's like nothing can stop him. So yeah. The 40-L as a power is a book long underground. Yeah and the one thing I wish he would do is write, you know, like I just wrote a memoir as you know, government chiefs right, where I sort of went back and told my stories. I would love to hear his stories. You should do that. When is he in Europe? When would he meet? Who did he meet? Who would what happened?

You know, he would be fascinating. I think even just as an artifact for the future, how does a guy get to wherever he's got to? Yeah, someone should just interview him and just get if he doesn't want to write it. If he doesn't want to write it, somebody needs to get it all on audio, something. So it's there. Yeah. Well, I selfishly had him do a daily book also, and he talks a little bit about it in the different parts. But yeah, I think what's also so amazing about Robert is like the 40 laws of power should be, Robert should be a tenured professor

at the Yale School of whatever. Absolutely. And I don't know why he isn't. Yeah, for him to do it outside the system, he's, there are not many independent scholars. No, there used to be, but his kind of lessons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know what? Robert's like, Robert's like the American equivalent of like, you know, you read these

books and it's like some British Lord. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like, right, who's just brilliant. But I have to say, or somebody like just writes this incredible work of, yeah, this incredible work of history, this multi-volume series on some obscure thing that shouldn't be commercially viable, but they're so smart and have independent means so they can do it. Robert is like the middle class American version of that story where, yeah, without any sort of university behind him or major publisher behind him, he just produces this work of both scholarship and history that it's going to stand for a generation. Yeah. Yeah. And what I also admire about Robert is

a different for me, but like that's all Robert does. Yeah. He's kind of the last of, I mean, even for you, like you do videos and you do, he does some of it now, but like you've been blogging for, you know, 10 plus years. Basically, Robert is, you know, there's Robert Carro and a handful of other authors from the old generation that just write books. They disappear for five years

as they work on this masterpiece. And it comes out and everyone's like, what is this? Almost nobody gets to do that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I admire him for is the self doubt that he must have dealt with all along because what he's setting off on these voyages into Terra incognita, right? Where if you asked any commercial editor, probably say, oh, this is going nowhere. And yet he persevered years and does it. And that's the thing that they don't teach you in.

Well, he's like school. I think he's five years into a project he thinks is going to take seven years. And so, I mean, that's almost literally an odyssey, but it's this book on the sublime, which should not be commercially viable. Just as the laws of human nature should not be, the laws of human nature is a 600 page book

about everything that makes humans both rational and irrational, that should not be a commercially viable book. You know? Yeah. Especially for someone who, again, he's not a New York Times columnist. You know, he doesn't have a TV show. Yeah.

Like, so he's, he, he just sort of bets on himself and these ideas that he finds, that he feels called to do. And obviously he has this enormous fan base that goes from book to book, but which is independently his, you know, you talk about going off in the wilderness. Each one of those books is this kind of self-imposed exile

into the wilderness, that he doesn't know if he's gonna come back from, and he doesn't know if he's gonna be greeted with. And he doesn't know if he's gonna be greeted with open arms when he returns. And the laws of human nature literally almost killed him. Like two months before it came out, he had a near fatal stroke, driving in his car in Los Angeles

and was recestated by the paramedics. And very easily could not have regained function. His limbs let alone his spine. I make up that that was the culmination of years and years of stress of that enormous stress and strain of that enormous and ambitious project. That's another thing I would love to ask him, what sustains you through that? Yeah.

I have my own answers for that, but I'd really love to hear his answers. Well, knowing both of you, I think your answers are very similar because we just did this event. We did a talk in Seattle and a talk in Los Angeles. And he was saying that. Which I missed, I couldn't afford it. You didn't tell me he wanted to come.

81 bucks, I think. It should have come. No, actually, I was out of town. Okay. I'll accept that. Definitely come. Yeah. Yeah. He, um, he was talking, I think one of the nights, I forget, it's one.

But he was saying, you know, those days where he gets to live with those characters or in that era of history, it's the most wonderful, exciting, rewarding thing in the world. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, I was just, I made a new friend recently, I named James Bashar, I don't know if you know him. But he's a big student of the danta, which I had never really

I want to know. You know, it's like the uponashads, it's sort of, you know, adjacent to Hinduism. Okay. You know, it's out of India, ancient wisdom. And one of the principles of it, see if I can get this right, is work without attachment is worship, without attachment to the outcome. Sure. So that I think in some way Robert is doing that, there's another principle like that that

says intense work, meaning toward for the higher level, not just digging a ditch, is rest. And that's fascinating too, because I think what it's really about is like when you're doing that work without attachment or intense work, you're on the soul level instead of the ego level. And that feeds the soul. And so I would be curious to hear if he, if that rings a bell with him at all, you know, in terms of finding the energy to keep going. It sounds like what you just said, sounds exactly like that to me. Well, I think I have found that starting a book or starting a project is scary and intimidating. Finishing or being finished with a project is a bit bittersweet or empty or even disorienting being in the depths of the project like where you're not sure it's coming together, that's hard.

But there is this middle period where your well past having started, you have no idea where you're going to finish, but you're just lost in the day-to-dayness of it. And you're operating under the momentum of every day stacking on top of itself. That's the most wonderful feeling in the whole world. Like being in the middle of a book or in the middle of doing something exciting, you know, when Google thinks that the people start Google think of the early days, it's probably not literally the first day, and it's not a year ago, it's like a couple years in where you're starting to sense that this could be something

and you're just lost in it. And you know, the success hasn't come yet, the problems that come with success, you haven't even gotten any outside, you don't feedback it out, you're just, that's the most wonderful feeling in the world. If it's very fleeting, but that, I think that's what sustains you.

And there is something maybe holy about it. I definitely think there is. It's also very scary, you know, for me. One day to the next, you know, I really feel like I've got something going, maybe I've hit that point. And each day, we're talking about resistance. Each day is like, you know, well, maybe I should take off today because we've got, you know, and then having to force yourself to get over that hump and then doing it, you know,

and having that momentum, you know, and having that momentum you're right. And the great part about that is that nobody knows about it but you, right? It's like you're in space, you're on one in a capsule all by yourself and you're just thinking, is this as good as I hope it's gonna be? And, you know, that is a great feeling. Or you're not even thinking about what anyone else would think at all.

The ideal state is it's really lighting you up. You're really excited to get this thing down, to express this, to make this happen. And you, you're not close enough to the end, to be going, right? Are you gonna like it? I'm gonna like it, I'm gonna do. How, how is it going to do? How many copies is it going to sell?

And that's the work without attachment phase. And that's probably the purest expression of any of it. And the longer you can be in that, you know, the better and you should protect it and appreciate it while you're in it. Yeah. That's where I think Robert is, you know, what he's working on some. Sure. I'm sure you and I are in that place too, you know. But my books are shorter, so there's a-

Really? That's what he thought. For me, that's a process measured by James or Weeks, right? Seven years, yeah. For him, I think he gets, you know, it's a big chunk of time, which is probably both scary and all of it's exaggerated, right? The starting phase might be a year for him, so that could be a really uncomfortable disorienting phase too. What is it in the Gita? It's like you're entitled to the work, but not the fruits of the work.

Exactly, which is the same thing but not the fruits of the work. Exactly. Which is the same thing as what we were just talking about. Yeah. So, the longer you can stay with that idea that like, no, no, getting to do this is the reward. Yeah. That's what I'm excited about. That's where I'm putting myself.

Eventually, you do have to think about how it's going to do and who's going to like, because it's a commercial world and you're making it for an audience, but there is the longer you can stay in that sort of suspended state of- I'm thinking, look at this studio that we're in now. This is your little spaceship, you know? That you've put together here. It's like an 11 year old boy's fantasy of what,

you know, something you might, you know? But that's, you know, this is it. This is the spaceship, you know? Yeah, well, I sometimes feel that too because like there's no windows in here and, you know, there's no phones. And so you talk for an hour or two, you come out. It's like, you know, when you go to the movies, you get, you get to a movie at like four and it's light out, then you leave the movie and it's dark. And you're like, what happened? Yeah. Because you just got totally lost in the world. You were immersed in the thing. You were totally present.

Or you cut out the vast majority of external distractions. Anytime you can get that in some sort of productive or creative work environment, that's where the magic happens. Yeah, that's, again, the sort of the thing of intense work equals rest, right? And you know, another thing I really admire about Robert Green, because I agree with this completely, is you know, there are a lot of people on Instagram and they're putting out, you know, a cold plunge and you know, all that sort of stuff is going to, but Robert's thing is work.

Robert's thing is it isn't just you breathe and you walk on the grass and that sort of thing. It's you have, you have something calls you and you get into it and you fight and you do it. And that that's the way you find some kind of traction or some sort of soul rest or worship or whatever you want to call it. So I really admire him for that too because nobody sells you and nobody teaches you that. It's not like anybody gave him a check or anything like that. He just did it. Psst, hey you, yeah you. I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Jiffy is the fastest and easiest way to get jobs done around the house. Just hop on the Jiffy app, choose from the 40-plus services, and bam, you'll be matched with a reliable pro in seconds. Windows and eavescleaning,

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a sonic revolution. And Secured 1988 is one of hip-hop's most important years. We'll talk to the people who were there. And most of all, we'll bring you some amazing stories. You know what my biggest memory from that tour is? It was your birthday. Yes, and you brought me to Shoday Life Size Hardware Cutout. This is Class of 88, the story of a year that changed hip hop.

Listen to Class of 88 wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge the entire series right now on the Amazon Music app or audible. the entire series right now on the Amazon Music app or Audible. Yeah, I think seeing it as a battle, which you both share that idea. And then I do you. And I also sort of, I always saw Robert as being very munk like, you know, he's sort of very disliked as I was saying,

like this is all that he does. You know, he's not jetting off to this place or this place. He doesn't live in some big mansion. It's like, it's very workman-like. Solitaire is not the right word, but it's workman-like and it's somewhat removed. And yeah, he's just doing it. And what comes out is spectacular,

but it's not all in pursuit of some corporate consultancy. Or it's the opposite of that. It's really, and his books are also works of art. Like they're beautiful. Like not only do you invent this sort of writing style, but then you know, you open the 40 laws of power and there's different colors and the text is arranged in this weird way.

And then it just, it worked, it worked at a level and for a group of people that not only should it not work for, like these ancient Chinese philosophies mixed with Machiavelli, mixed with these, you know, Middle Eastern or Middle Ages figures, you know, all this stuff. Like not only should that not be commercially viable at all. Like Roberts books are some of the most shop-lifted books in publishing and they are the some of the most requested and the most banned books in prisons. Really? And so you go, I know that. How do you, how do you just write something that's relevant

to people experiencing that for whatever reason? But two, that is applicable and usable and, you know, desire, like, like, he has taken something, again, that should be academic and elite, and he's not only made it popular, but he's made it accessible to both ends of that spectrum. Yeah, it is actually encouraging to me that those books have found a market. Yeah. That there are people that do want to read it. It isn't like he's in a vacuum. Yeah.

And they're not easy to read. You know, it's, you know, some of those stories you got to get, you got to read through them. But it's not like he's, it's not like, oh, he's kind of got this like small following. Like Robert has sold probably between 10 and 20 million books. You know, like a couple, like one of the best selling nonfiction authors alive.

Yeah. And that's incredible. And then to again, for that to be so spread out demographic, I think is really good. Yeah, yeah. He's the best. And one of a kind, does nobody like him? It's a reminder also though that the audience is smarter than people in publishing, want to tell themselves.

Yeah, yeah. publishing, you want to tell themselves. Yes. The other thing about him is like the way he is lived his life. If you look at it from the outside, you really have to admire it. And yet, nobody does it. It's sort of like in the ancient world, people would say, the Spartan way, that's the way to live. Yes. And yet, no other city, you know, in the whole world, ever copied it, you know, because it's too hard.

Yes, yes, that's true. It's, no, he's the best. But I mean, same with you, too. I mean, when you wrote these books that I can't imagine most people in publishing were really excited for a historical, for historical military fiction, not in, not in the mid 90s, early 2000s. Actually, they were at the start. I mean, at least once the book came out. Yes. But before it came out, no. But I mean, even now it's not, it's not, it's not trendy. Yeah, true. It's very litchy. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not what,

a 36 year old woman who went to an East Coast liberal arts college in Living in Hatton enters publishing to be able to champion. You know, like you're not their dream author. That's for sure. Neither am I. This isn't what they would like to be publishing. So there's always this part of the market that is underutilized, because they're not under spoken to

because they're not representative of the people who sit at the gates of what the industry is. Yeah. I was thinking about, I was thinking about, I was thinking about your books, like they've had this weird life too, where you've got generals reading them and then you've got new recruits reading them

and then you've got regular people. Like also something that manages to work on multiple levels, which Robert's does is the sign, I think of something that has some kind of deeper truth to it. I hope that's true. Yeah. I mean, do you ever think about sort of the spectrum of people who are able to enjoy Gates of Fire or the War of Art?

Like, you have people who have sold hundreds of millions of records that are a fan of the War of Art, and then you have someone who's literally never produced anything is just thinking about starting, and they can both come to the War of Art and take something from. Yeah, I don't think about that too much, you know? Really? I'm just sort of doing it for myself in a way. I don't know. Do you write things that way?

I'm certainly not. I don't have an avatar in mind at all, because it always surprises me. The people that read my books are always different than who I thought they would be. No, I'm also surprised, but I've found the more I've thought about Marx's Realist's Meditations, the more I am in awe of it, right? Because in one sense, the book should be inaccessible and incomprehensible to us. Like you have the most powerful man in the world

in an empire 2,000 years ago, who believed preposterous things about where the universe came from, what even their sense of right and wrong. And you know, like the Romans were like us and then we're utterly not like us, right? And so, and no one was more removed from normal modern life than the emperor of, you know, of Rome. And so you have this man writing to himself and his palace or, you know, on the front lines in this tent at night,

and he's writing in Greek to himself. Like, he's not attempting to publish anything. That's the remarkable thing about what meditation is. Talk about not having any attachment to the outcome, yeah. But because he has no attachment to the outcome, he's not thinking whether it could be consumed in any way. So, he's writing in shorthand and he's referencing, he goes, you know, like that time

with the customs operator in distant province or, you know, he's like, like that story about Socrates and the coat. You know, and we don't know what he's talking about. He references plays and literature that is lost. It's the only instance of that line from Euripides or whoever. So he's writing in a foreign language to himself 2,000 years ago from his incredibly isolated, elevated perch on the top of Roman life.

And yet you crack open this book, Meditations, to himself, and it's not just, oh, I get a sense of what he's talking about, but it sounds like he's speaking to you with what you are dealing with right now. Yeah. In a world where you have an iPhone, and you're driving a car,

and there's nuclear weapons, and you can travel, there's nuclear weapons. You can travel, it's supersonic stuff. How, how does it make sense? What it is ultimately is the specificity, the total insolerness of it makes it utterly generalizable and relatable. He was authentically being himself, and in that way manages to speak to millions for all time. And then you have Cicero, who's the great speaker of that time trying to create these works for posterity that basically nobody but the scholars

reads or gets anything out of anymore. How did you originally come upon the meditations? I was at a conference in college, I was writing for my college newspaper, and I went up to the guy afterwards, and I said, you seem smart. You know, what books do you recommend? I read. Yeah, and he said,

you know, I'm reading this guy, Epictetus, maybe you would like Epictetus. So I went to Amazon and I typed in, you know, I'm reading this guy, Epictetus, maybe you would like Epictetus. So I went to Amazon and I typed in, you know, Epictetus and it came up, but then also marks the release came up. And I'd seen Gladiator, so I was like, maybe I'll start with that. So I got meditations, the Amazon Prime didn't exist,

so I had to buy some other books, and they all came. I would have read Gates of Fire right around this time also, because I remember buying that on Amazon, and then it got lost and I had to buy it. I remember writing to Amazon, because we're sure it's to get another copy. And so I, which is still the one that I have,

upstairs in my office, but it just came, and I opened this book and it's not ancient philosophy at all. You know, the first passage in Meditations, Marcus, is, you know, when you wake up this morning, you're going to meet people who are annoying and obnoxious and frustrating and weird. And he just lists, you know, the sort of perennial, you know, types of human beings. And you go, wow, like suddenly all the, all the distance in all the centuries disappear and it's two humans talking to each other. Yeah. That's an amazing thing when that happens. You know, when you're

reading something from 2500 years ago or something like that and you just feel like that flash, right? Right across the centuries, yeah. Yeah. And there's also something special in meditations in the sense that because he was writing to himself, he says, you, he says, you, he says you, you know, could die any moment. It's like, when you have trouble waking up in the morning, say to yourself, you know, I was put here to get up and do things, not to huddle under the covers and say, well, since he's having a conversation with himself, the fact that somehow, when we don't know who preserved it

and why, the fact that it was preserved and published, it now gives the effect of he's talking to you. He's talking to himself, he's talking to both of us, but it's different than their typical book, which is addressed to everybody and thus nobody. Yeah, yeah, it's you. Yeah. And you do that in your books, you know? I mean, I first started it through Jim Mass. Really?

When I asked him, you know, what book, like you? Is it what book, you know? Marcus Aurelius. So now I had to read it because he's got a rooms like this. You know him, he's a friend of yours. He's like a great, great reader. And he's read, you know, and for that to be like his book, his number one book, but for what he was doing, obviously, at the level he was at, you know, Forstar Marine General going

up to Baghdad being trumps, you know, living in that world, trying to be in Secretary Defense against with that sort of horror that was going on. Yeah. I can absolutely see why, you know, meditations is something that he would just imbibe, you know, straight, you know, into the bloodstream. Have you read Thomas Ricks? You know, he's tough. I have, but it's so, I just remember the name.

Remind me. Yeah, he wrote First Principles, which is about the beliefs of the Founding Fathers. He wrote, I think, Fiasco about the Warren Rackers. Anyways, he wrote in one of his books, he was talking about, he's like, you can imagine, Mattis stressed out, life or death, all this stuff's happening, he's dusty and dirty, he's thousands of miles from home, and he goes into his bag or his tent or reaches into the car and he picks up this book, this 2000-year-old book written by a guy also on campaign. He was trying to center himself, call himself down, remind himself of his values. self-down, remind himself of his values. And so that is kind of the warrior philosopher tradition.

And so if you're a warrior, you relate to that part of Marcus, maybe a little more. If you're an intellectual type, you can imagine him falling in love with book. Marcus would write and read at the Colosseum. Like he had to go watch the games as part of the job today. But he would, he would read there. And so instead of watching the Gladiators, yeah. So you can just imagine, you know, and then you, as you imagine, thousands of years since, people turning to that same book, there's kind of this, this tradition of, of getting out of the moment you're in by the pages of a book. So then you can go back to that moment, a little wiser and calmer. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you might be sharing this. So I

I want to give it to you in the book, sir, but I read this. I read, have you read Anne? Have you read Anne Rose book on Pontius Pilate? No. Did he never even heard of it? It's absolutely incredible. You would not think that that would be a figure that would be interesting. Are they making a movie out of this? Maybe. What did I read? Brad Pitt was playing Pontius Pilate or something like that.

Well, it's an amazing book. And so I sent him this paragraph that I wrote down from that book, because she spends a lot of time thinking about pilot. And the fact that he's basically a guy with an undesirable job with a shitty boss, right? He's the boss of one of the most capricious evil Roman emperors. And so this is this paragraph. He says, it's not hard to imagine dinner parties in Cisaria, at which pilots' guests visiting from Rome

would regale him with blood-soaked stories and sexual details that would make the women cover their ears. While pilot would listen in the awful sinking knowledge that this was the man to whom he owed his career, from whom he drew his authority and whose safety he prayed for. Doubtless in some sense, you could disconnect from the man from the office as people under any regime can close their eyes to the personal sins of their rulers, of their rulers. But there may have been times when he could not, when amidst the gentile litter of wine beakers,

chicken bones, roses and clowns, the prefect of Judea would find himself suddenly sickened by the obscenity of his protector. So obviously this is a modern, the books maybe 30 years old, but she's painting this scene, this figure that in this predicament that is uniquely ancient, but then utterly modern. And I sent it to him and I said, I wonder if you can relate to this period. Which, of course, could. And you just think about kind of the timelessness of the dilemmas and the predicaments that we get ourselves to.

I think of Jesus coming suddenly before this guy who's got to make some decisions. Well, I think about the fact that, he's basically a pro-console in the Roman Emperor. That's his job. Well, that's, Santa Cahreja's letters to his friend, Lucilius. That's Lucilius's job.

And just a different, like, they're, you know, they're just, we think of these historical moments and figures as being utterly unique as opposed to multiple people were doing the same thing at the same time. And then it's just happening over and over and over and where, where history is kind of that. History is the same thing over and over. Like there were multiple stands at Thermopylae. Yes, there was one or even in the modern world. Yeah, exactly. And they will be again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's nothing new under the sun. Yeah. It's interesting that I hope people will be

interested in this conversation that we're having. You know, this is sort of like a Robert Green book as well. You know, we're really getting out is sort of like a Robert Green book as well. We're really getting out there into areas that people would say, I'm saying, you want to give a shit about this, but I hope they do. Do you know Tyler Cowan's work? He does marginal revolution.

He's an economist. He's a really interesting guy. But at the start of his podcast, with a lot of him, he does live. He says to the audience, just so you know, this is the conversation I want to have, not the conversation that you want to have. And I think about the podcast that and obviously you have to care about the audience a little bit, but I also find the less you care about the audience and the more you are just interested in where it goes.

And what gets you excited, that tends to be a good proxy for what people find interesting. So I'm interested. Like do you have any idea how much time is elapsed? No, do you? I do, because I can live a bit there. But it's more time than I would have guessed, which is also a good sign. I tell people like if you don't lose track of time

while you're working, you're probably not doing what you're meant to do. Yeah, I think it's absolutely true. Yeah, it's a great test. Yeah. During the pandemic, obviously, there was this surreal experience where you'd be like, what day is it again? But I think I'm still having that experience. But as a writer, that's also, that's not a totally new experience. You should lose like the only reason I know is what I'm doing at the gym that day. Okay. Because I know it's a different thing each day.

What's good to have something that roots you see, don't totally spin off the planet as a creative person. But I'm all the time, I'll, it's more so on my earlier books, but I would, I'd, you know, finish my writing and then I'd go to, go lunch somewhere or whatever and it'd be like, it's closed on Mondays. It's Monday. You know? Like I wouldn't, of course I knew it's closed on Mondays,

but I just, Monday, Sunday, Thursday, Friday, what's the difference to me? You know? How scheduled are your days, Ryan? Like today, what do you, what will you do after we finish up here? What do you, what will you do after we finish up here? Do you know already? I'm basically, I wouldn't say I'm done, but like I have, I have already won. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? I mean, you don't have something like scheduled for one to two and two to three and really?

I mean, I have like the kids have soccer and there's some activity, you know, there's like that stuff, but like this morning, you know, I got up early, I went for a run, made the kids lunches, I took them to school, I wrote for two hours, I ate lunch, and now I'm here. So like, I have other responsibilities, I have other things, you know, I have on my to-do list,

there's, you know, I have to call you accountant and I have to check in on something and I have to make a payment for it. I have like some little pittily things like that, but I don't have anything that I can't push till tomorrow, because I succeeded for the day, because I wait the hard slash important stuff up front. I know. That's what, that's one of your theories. Yeah, yeah. And then it's all kind of gravy from there. That's how I think about it. Yeah. I've sort of in recent years, I've kind of flipped it around.

Like I always used to do the really hard stuff first. But now I find that I'm so tired when I'm done with my real work, writing, interesting that I don't have the strength to pay checks and pay bill, you know, do my taxes. So I have to, so I do that first. And then, you know, then I can, but does that clear the decks? But does that impact the state of mind that you bring to the work?

Not really, I don't know why, but it seems to work okay. I find life wears me down, right? So, or I get frustrated or distracted. It uses a certain amount of willpower to call AMX on the phone and then hold and then be like, I already gave you this paperwork. You know, what do you mean? Like now you have to cancel the card and then I got to change the thing on every recurring payment.

Like that, if I use up my energy on, I would rather be tired when I do that than tired when I sit down to write the daily stuff for the day. Somehow, I mean, I used to be that way for me, but somehow flipped around. I'm not sure how, or why. Well, you've been at this 50 years. Yeah. How, which one of the things I love about writing is it's one of the only professions elite professions that, you know, compared to sports or being a model or something. You know, like, you can get better at it. But you get better at it.

But then also, there's not a cliff that you fall off of where they go, you can't do it anymore. Like, a musician can play their whole life, but you're the chances of you being culturally relevant, you know, at 52 is less. Whereas a writer theoretically can be doing it always and can be doing their best work later, right? How has it changed for you? I mean, you're one of the people who's been lucky enough to do it a long time. I also started late. You know, I was whatever, 52 or 53 when my first book was published. So, so in a way, I'm kind of young from that point of view.

Even so, that's 30 plus year. That's 30, you've been a successful working writer for 30 years. Yeah, maybe not quite that long, but yeah, yeah. But it's mentioned in decades. I'm a believer in higher dimensions of reality, and that we serve those higher dimensions. So as long as they're giving us stuff, we should be able to keep doing it. When I see musicians and stuff like that, we sort of burn out at a certain point,

where they were great for a certain time, and then they haven't done anything for years. I just say to myself, I pray that's not me. But I'm also not trying as hard to be relevant as I might have, but I never really I am I never really was because I was always picking such odd subjects that if they succeeded at all it was amazing. Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it. I'll see you next episode.

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