The Daily Stoic - The Price of Integrity | Jordan Harbinger

Episode Date: July 13, 2024

Having interviewed over 1,000 people, how does Jordan Harbinger decide who he brings on his wildly successful podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show? What guests, topics, or advertisers has he turned down despite how click-worthy or lucrative they are? Listen in to today’s conversation with Jordan Harbinger and Ryan Holiday to hear them talk about why integrity is incredibly expensive, but worth it every time. 🎙️ Listen to Part 1 with Jordan Harbinger on What We Can Learn From The Rich And FamousListen to Ryan’s previous interviews on The Jordan Harbinger Show: 45: Ryan Holiday | Solving for What You Really Want from Life271: Ryan Holiday | Stillness Is the Key740: Ryan Holiday | Discipline is Destiny (Live from Los Angeles)Connect with Jordan on Instagram, X, YouTube, TikTok: @JordanHarbinger🎥 Check out the YouTube series documenting the writing process of Right Thing, Right Now:Ryan Holiday's Writing Process Part 1: Cracking The StructureRyan Holiday's Writing Process Part 2: The First Draft Of Anything Is Sh*tRyan Holiday's Writing Process Part 3: Publishing A #1 New York Times Bestseller🎟 Order tickets to Ryan's tour dates at ryanholiday.net/tour✉️ Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Get Stoic inspired books, medallions, and prints to remember these lessons at the Daily Stoic Store: https://store.dailystoic.com/📱 Follow us:  Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, and FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to the daily Stoic early and ad free right now. Just join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. I've been writing books for a long time now and one of the things I've noticed is how every year, every book that I do, I'm just here in New York putting right thing right now out. What a bigger percentage of my audience is listening to them in audiobooks, specifically on Audible. I've had people had me sign their phones, sign their phone case because they're like I've listened to all your audiobooks here and my sons they love audiobooks we've been doing it in the car to get them off their screens because audible helps your imagination soar. It helps you

read efficiently, find time to read when maybe you can't have a physical book in front of you and then it also lets you discover new kinds of books, re-listen to books you've already read from exciting new narrators. You can explore bestsellers, new releases. My new book is up, plus thousands of included audio books and originals, all with an Audible membership.

You can sign up right now for a free 30-day Audible trial and try your first audio book for free. You'll get right thing right now, totally for free. Visit audible.ca to sign up. I'm Mike Bubbins. I'm Ellis James. And I'm Steph Guerrero and we're convinced that our podcast The Socially Distanced Sports Bar is going to be your new favorite comedy podcast with just a little bit of sport thrown in. You don't have to love sport, like sport or even know anything about sport to listen. Because

nobody has conversations which stay on topic and it's the same on our podcast. We might start off talking about ice hockey but end up discussing, I don't know, 1980s British sitcom Aloha Lo instead. Why did you use the word nuance in your pitch for Aloha Lo? He's not cheating on his wife, he's French! It's a different culture!

If you like me and Mammoth, or you like Alice in Fantasy Football League, then you'll love our podcast. Follow the Socially Distant Sports Bar wherever you get your podcasts. The Socially Distant Sports Bar, it's not about asymmetrical overlords. James, podcasting from his study, and you have to say that's magnificent. Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily Stoic. Each weekday we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics.

We interview stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal, and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring. Hey, it's Ryan Holiday.

Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Thanks to everyone who supported right thing right now I just found out it spent another week on the New York Times bestseller. So thanks to everyone My arms are exhausted from signing all the copies It's to have a daily stoke are exhausted from mailing them all out But but it just means so much that everyone's supporting the book and it's funny I made this big video of like, actually three videos, which I'll link to them

in the show notes, because they're on the YouTube channel. But I basically, as I was writing the book, I was sort of documenting as it was happening. Like even at the very beginning when I was like, what the hell is this book? Like, I have that footage. And so you can really see the book go from conception to organizing the note cards,

the first words on the page, all the drafts, covers, whatever. But as I was going through the footage, I noticed there's one day, I don't know why I was filming it, I'd just been out of town, I got back, and I'm taking a COVID test. And I was like, what is that about?

So I watched the footage, and then I realized what had happened is I'd gone and done a live event for, this is still sort of smack dab in the middle of the pandemic, and I'd done a live event in Los this is still sort of smack dab in the middle of the pandemic. And I'd done a live event in Los Angeles with Jordan Harbinger, who I ran the first chunk of our in-person interview

at the Painted Port Studios earlier in the week. But anyways, I'd just done this, flown out to LA, got to stay in my favorite place, which is the Los Angeles Athletic Club, got to swim in, and then we went and we did it at some little club in LA. And it was awesome, it was great to see him. I hadn't seen him since the lockdowns and whatever.

And then I get home and I get a text and he goes, man, I feel so terrible, but I just tested positive for COVID. He's like, I don't know if I got it. Like the next day, I had to go shoot something. He's like, I don't know if I got it there. I felt fine. If I, he was like beside himself.

And I was like, it's okay, man. I'm an adult. I just appreciate you telling me because now I can handle myself. So anyways, I was filming something as this call came in. So I take the COVID test. I was negative, all good. It just flashed me back because here I am,

like, you know, three years later and he's at the studio, I'm doing this podcast. It just took me back because I don't even know if I would have conceived having my own studio when that happened. because here I am like, you know, three years later and he's at the studio, I'm doing this podcast. It just took me back because I don't even know if I would have conceived having my own studio when that happened. And he's such a good dude. And it's funny, I'll bring up one other thing

related to this because I ended up ironically having to have a funny conversation with him because he and I saw each other in New York while I was doing the launch of Right Thing Right Now. And then a couple of days later, I got COVID. I know how it happened. I didn't give him a heads up because I know for a fact that I'd gotten it after him.

And he was like, do I have to get tested? And I was like, the shoe's on the other foot now, man. But no, I told him he didn't. It's funny though, I posted it because it was like on my birthday and Father's Day that this had all happened and people were like, blah, blah, blah, wah, wah. Guys, the whole point of justice is thinking

about how your actions affect other people. It's like sort of basic empathy. It's like you gotta run around and be terrified of a virus. I'm just saying, if I can, by spending a little money on a test or having the like a nightclub or whatever delivered, instead of picking it up at the store and infecting someone,

instead of giving it to my kids and they have to miss summer school or my wife who now on top of all the support she gave me for the book launch, she's got to be out of commission? No, I mean, this is basic courtesy. Like this is why you wash your hands. This is why you don't speed in somebody's neighborhood.

You think about the little choices you make and the impact that has on other people. This is just basic human decency 101. And it's a shame that that's been so politicized and lost. And I think when you find someone who's upfront with you, who is considerate, who's conscientious, like keep those people close, because those people are great. And Jordan is one of those people, Find someone who's upfront with you, who is considerate, who's conscientious. Like keep those people close,

because those people are great. And Jordan is one of those people, he's a lawyer turned podcast host. His show, The Jordan Harbinger Show, has had over a thousand guests. As I was saying in the intro for the first episode, he's one of the first podcasts I've ever done. He's had some way more interesting guests,

Mark Cuban, T-Pain, Ray Dalio. He's had Kobe on. He came by The Painted Porch. We had these great back-to-back conversations. I'll link to part one. And then he interviewed me. And then we kicked around The Painted Porch. I showed him some of my favorite books.

He also talked about why he turned down interviewing Kanye, which I thought was really interesting. Again, conscientiousness, courtesy, obligation, responsibility. Anyways, great episode. You can listen to all my episodes on Jordan's show. I think they're great. He's always a class act and an awesome interviewer.

And I love his podcast and I listen to it all the time. I think you should too. Thanks to Jordan for coming on. I'll share his episode with me on social at some point, I'm sure. In any case, here's part two with me, Jordan Harbinger. I'm heading over to Australia in a couple of weeks. I'm gonna be in Sydney on July 31st.

I'm gonna be in Melbourne on August 1st. Then in November, I'm doing Vancouver and Toronto, London, Dublin, Rotterdam, all awesome cities I'm really excited to go to. If you wanna come to those talks, they're open to the public and you can grab those tickets at RyanHoliday.net slash tour. I wonder how you think about this balance.

So you have a public platform. You just speak into a microphone for hours a day. Pretty much. Yeah. You can, there's some aspect where you're like, I just say what I think and I don't think about the consequences. And then there's this other part where you can be very calculated and there's like, on one end of the spectrum, there's like, I'm an asshole and I just say whatever I think.

And then on the other hand, there's like, I'm phony and fake and restrained. And there's probably some middle ground. But how do you think about like what you say and don't say when you speak up, when you don't speak up? Well, the problem is you have to make upstream choices in order to not put yourself in a position to say something bad. Like if I have a sponsor that I think is crap,

I'm already in trouble. Yes. Right? Like if I'm shilling something where I'm already in trouble. Yes. Right? Like if I'm shilling something where I'm like, gamblingonline.net everybody. Like I'm like, how did I end up in this mess? So what I do is I write things into contracts. It's like, I have to approve all of my sponsors.

And if the sponsor does this thing or it turns out to be something else, I will cancel it and I will just lose the money. Sometimes I have to just lose money. Like if it's like, oh, this company is pivoted to do this thing, but we've already approved it, I have to be like, hey agency, I approved it thinking it was this.

I didn't realize they forced people to buy this thing every month and you can't cancel it. I don't wanna do that anymore. I'm getting complaints. And they're like, well, we have a six month contract. You've already done two of the ads. Yeah, and I'm like, well, I don a six month contract. You've already done two of the ads. Yeah, and I'm like, well, I don't want to keep doing it. So let me know how to wind this down.

And like, all right, can you do the next 30 days of it? But then you have to wind it down. And if it's really egregious, I'll just be like, no, I will pay back the, I canceled the whole campaign. I'll give the money back for the ads I've already run. My sales team is like, thanks a lot jerk face, right? Because they their commission goes down the toilet. Are there types of advertisers you won't? Yeah I want to do any sort of gambling thing and I even tell my my network, you know how those automated ones come in sometimes

I'm like block the whole gambling category The problem is these companies that do things like gambling are in my opinion already unethical So what they do is they say this ad is home home and garden, and then we catch them, and they go, gosh, this casino ad was under home and garden. And they'll go, oh, that was an accident. No, it wasn't. You just lied because we blocked the gambling category, and you want to advertise to people who have said no already. So they do that, and they can say, oh, somebody checked the wrong box.

Right, right, because you get it. You're like, here's the categories that I approve or here's the things I won't do. And then so they try to find a way around it. So of course the ads I voice, if I see copy that's like gambling online. Sometimes you don't see it until you're like literally sitting down and you're like, wait,

this is, these are, yeah. There's that and there's also the ads that are not voiced by me that are just like an announcer and they go across 10,000 different podcasts. I might not even know that's in there. I care a little bit less about those in that like, I feel like one, I'm not endorsing it and two, I have no control over what the YouTube ads are.

That doesn't keep me up at night. You know what I mean? Like maybe this is rationalizing, but I think there's obviously different levels of it. But yeah, when I'm sitting down and I'm saying the thing, you're endorsing it. I'm saying you should bet on sports, and I don't really think you should. Right.

You could, look, I'll tell you this, and this is, I'm not telling you what choice to make, but you can block gambling ads, and you will not see a decrease in your income from what's called programmatic advertising. It will just get filled with, wear your seatbelt, or like booksonline.com. Like it'll just get filled with something right there's unlimited

Yeah, maybe gambling pays a couple dollars more CPM. What if you made 300 more dollars this month? Would that change your lifestyle? Do you do alcohol? Yeah, I do actually but it's only if it is tasteful Yeah, and only if it's like something that I don't think is probably geared secretly towards young people to binge drink because there's different something that I don't think is probably geared secretly towards young people to binge drink, because there's different brands that I'm like, oh, this is an expensive brand of booze. I'll share this with my father-in-law. Okay.

But if it's like, this booze is really cheap and available at gas stations and also has caffeine in it, I'm like, this is for people to get hammered. I'm not down to that. I'm not going to endorse that. So I block that kind of stuff. There's- I don't do any CBT stuff. Anything with-

Oh, CBD stuff. Yeah, CBD. Yeah, I feel like that maybe doesn't even do anything. I'm not even sure. Yeah, I'm just like, I just like don't, I think it's weird when you're like telling people to do stuff that is veering into the medical space. Yeah.

Do you know what I mean? I agree. I won't, so I never endorse anything I wouldn't put in my own body. So if it's like a vitamin, okay. I'll check with doctors or experts and make sure it's- Supplements I'm not that concerned about. But if it's magnesium to help you sleep,

okay, there's science behind that. If this is a supplement that's going to help lengthen your telomeres and induce anti-aging and something something I'm like I have a whole whatsapp chat group with all these like really high level sort of like fitness guys And I it's called is it bullshit Oh, and I just know this guy or this person's documentary or this supplement And then they'll go no and they used to send me links where I could prove it And I'm just like I don't need to read the 10,000 word article you wrote debunking it.

I get it. And I'm just like, no, I will not endorse this person who sells like plant water that is supposed to make you reverse the aging process. I didn't, you know, sometimes it's not that obvious. Sometimes it's like, oh, this supplement, I've heard of that. Yeah, but you can't take it in pill form.

It's like an intravenous drug and the research research says this. Oh, so these pills are bullshit Yeah So I just say no to all that stuff and my my sales team sometimes they go nuts because they're like this company is spending So much money you're gonna say no, they'll buy the whole year and I go to I just have to think like, okay I kind of I think it's it's almost don't think right yours like well, yeah, I think it's lame Is it weird? No, but the problem is then they want you to go, well, think about what it's cost. Once you start doing the calculation,

then it's harder to do what's obviously the right thing. It is. Look, if someone listens to you and they trust you, which a lot of people trust you, a lot of people trust me, why would I squander that to get a few thousand dollars? It took me years to build a reputation where I go, this is pretty good, this book is good,

I buy this thing, it's good, this mattress is good. Why would I squander that? Because I'm always so close to accidentally mentioning specific names. Why would I do that? Because this specific supplement company is offering me a bunch of money. What would I do with that money?

I would put it in a interest bearing savings account and I would earn more money with it. This is not like we can send the kids to that private school if we just shill this thing. This isn't, I desperately need this for my daughter's cancer treatment or something. No, it's not. Not that that would excuse it necessarily,

but like why are you making decisions to do things or be a part of things that you know you would judge someone else for doing? 100%. So like I said, I have to make upstream decisions where I block gambling, I block vape stuff. I block any sort of like, yeah, CBD stuff. And I'm not against like cannabis use.

I'm against like, this does all these medical things that are not research. Yeah, people you know who are not doctors, who are selling, you know, it was an apparel company three years ago and now it's pivoted. You know, like there's just something weird about it. And then, yeah. The other thing I block or won't endorse

are those like sort of dubious financial things. Like, look, if Bank of America wants to advertise, it's not my favorite bank, but fine, it's a bank. They're not gonna steal your money. But if it's like invest in a real estate fund with as little as $500. If you really knew what you were doing, would you be soliciting $500 from college students

to invest in skyscrapers? No, you'd be a client of Goldman Sachs and your initial investment would be $500,000 or a million dollars or whatever. This is clearly BS. I don't want people to get caught up in that. And I also don't do crypto stuff. Again, it's not because I don't believe

in anything having to do with blockchain. It's because- So you might personally invest in it or whatever, but it's not a thing that needs another person to hawk. Can you sleep at night if somebody goes, hey, I put 50 grand into that thing and now I can't get it out. And you go, yeah, I can't get mine out either,

but it doesn't matter because I have more money than you. I just put 50 grand into that thing and I can't get it out. And you go, yeah, I can't get mine out either, but it doesn't matter because I have more money than you. I just put 50 grand into that thing and I can't get it out because I put more money in it. That doesn't affect my lifestyle. And this person's like, yeah, that was kind of like, I was gonna use that for my wedding and now I can't pay the deposit. I cannot sleep at night if I do something like that, dude.

Yeah, there's something about that where it's like, people are being very flip about things because they've, I think, lost their understanding that they are not representative of the audience. So like this happened, I think, during COVID where people would say things and it's like, hey, not everyone is 26. Not everyone is jacked. You know, not everyone is perfectly healthy. Not everyone lives in America. You know, like you're assuming that you're representative and then advocating your choices. And people do that in lots of ways.

They're advocating as if they're normal and as opposed to being the exception of the rule. And maybe it feels a little patronizing to be like, I'm gonna tell people to do things that I don't feel that strongly about. But there is something about understanding that different, like I'll give you an example where I think about this. I out of college it's worked out very well for me and I think early on I was much more comfortable talking about that and encouraging other people to do the same and now

I don't get as many emails anymore because I'm old people probably talk to younger people about it but like I don't talk about it and I don't necessarily say that I think it's a good thing because I understand more and more that I was probably an unrepresentative sample. And also I know how agonizing it was. I know how easily it could have gone the other way. I'm not, and I know the audience is now at a size. I'm not going to flippantly tell large groups of people

to do a very risky thing, because I understand that even if it works out for most of them, the percentage of people that it won't work out for is a large amount of people. And you have to have a responsibility that goes. There's a responsibility. 100, I could not agree more. There's a lot of bad entrepreneur sphere advice

that I always tell people to just don't listen to that particular bit of advice. There's one bit of advice that is going around where it's like, you gotta burn the ships. Go all in, go all in. And by the way, what does burn the ships from? Is that a Roman thing? Well, one story is that Cortez, when he lands in America,

he burns the boats so they have to make their way up through Mexico. By the way, he was like awful. He was like awful, you know? It's like he went and raped and pillaged to like a continent. So like there's something about this story that's also like not great.

Like they were so desperate that they dehumanized the people they were. Right, that's a good point. They had no object. So the whole go all in, burn the ships thing, it's a really bad idea. Because if, let's say you have a business and you're making like an extra thousand

or $2,000 a month, why would you quit your current job that makes you 4,000, $5,000 a month? Now you have to cut, first of all, now you have to work 100 hours a week, because it turns out your business wasn't that scalable. Like you have to work 100 times more to make the extra thousand000 that you were making up when you were a server at Applebee's

or whatever other job you had. Also, the thing you loved doing when you were making jewelry on Etsy and making $1,000 or $2,000 a month, now you hate your hobby because now you have to make 40 necklaces a day. So you're working 10 hours, you've binged every Netflix series

while your hands are bloody from bending wire around gems or whatever,, you've binged every Netflix series while your hands are bloody from bending wire around gems or whatever, and you've ruined your hobby, you've ruined your side hustle, and for what? 500, $5,000 extra a month. Just because it worked for you doesn't mean it's gonna work for you. And so you have to be intellectually honest

about the advice that you give. And I think you owe responsibility to not be flip about things that are actually, even if you believe them, even if it is a good, like you can't obscure the costs and the challenges of the thing. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

I think a lot of it comes down to a lot of these people who say things like that, their level of intensity in whatever they do is enormously high. So they can't run a store and also write and publish books or coach people or whatever the business is. So they have to focus on one thing because they're unhealthily obsessed

with that one thing as it is. So they tell other people, if your parents don't support you, move out and do your own thing. And it's like, is that really what you wanted? Do you wanna sever the relationship with people who really do have your best interest in mind and are telling you something

because they think you're making a mistake? Do you wanna cut off that support structure? That's like what cults tell people to do. So- And I think whatever, like I remember someone was saying, like the people that become like dating columnists or sex columnists are normally weirdos

Yeah, not not like in a judgmental way, but usually there's stuff happening with that person Yeah, and like is that who you necessarily want to get the advice from? Oh, yeah, you know So there's there's this element of like I'm insecure about the thing or the things like there's a kind of like a rationalization That happens where you you want to evangelize what you're doing things like there's a kind of a like a rationalization that happens where you you want to evangelize what you're doing to normalize it, because you're maybe a little uncomfortable

with it doesn't sense. That's interesting. I totally understand that that there's some sense there. Viking committed to exploring the world in comfort. Journey through the heart of Europe on an elegant Viking longship with thoughtful service, cultural enrichment and all-inclusive fares. Discover more at Viking.com. Em, what do you look for in a globally massive pop star?

Oh, I want sensationally inappropriate outfits, incredible glamour, and an almost unapproachable cool. Well, for the latest series of Terribly Famous, would you settle for some plaid shirts, ginger hair, and an acoustic guitar? No, no I won't. What if there's a loop pedal? All right, keep talking.

That is actually it. It just sounds a bit ordinary. Emily, this is Ed Sheeran. You really won't believe the twists and turns his story takes. OK, fine. Sell me Ed. Addiction, shame spirals, family interventions, grief,

massive court cases, obsession. OK, OK. I'm listening. Ed mapped out his whole career when he was just a teenager, and he has followed that path to some very strange places. How strange? Jennifer Aniston's son, Langer. Just an ordinary guy.

Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wandery Plus on Apple podcasts or the Wandery app. I see a lot of these people that I used to, now again, on the theme of us getting old and crusty Uh-huh, isn't it interesting to see people who you formally really respected and yet such a high opinion of you watch them blow up Their life over something stupid like they have an affair and then you're like, well, that's you're gonna end that right? No, I'm gonna leave my wife and kids of 30 years 20 years for this like

Influencer that I met on Instagram and you go Wait a minute. And then you have to replay everything that person's ever told you and be like, does this still have legs? Was this actually good or was this actually terrible? And there's like, it's like an 80, 20 thing where you go, oh, that was actually really bad.

But this other thing still stands out. This thing worked out for me. This other thing though, and you have to almost reevaluate everything you've learned from this person to see if it was actually just really, really terrible advice. Well, you do it, there's that Zen story about wait and see, do you know this one?

Yeah, is that the Chinese farmer one? Yes, yeah, she's like, wait and see, let's wait and see. So you have these opinions about people, and then if you stick around long enough or you know them long enough, it's a sort of a wait and see, you're like, oh, it was more complicated than that, or it was more context dependent than I thought.

And then you're like, ooh. And so yeah, I found it to be sad. It's kind of a disillusioning that I've been going through the last several years where you're like, yeah, I thought we were all on the same page and that we all had similar values. And then it's like, oh, no, no, no, you value very different things

or you have a very different kind of character or you made some very human but still very real mistakes and now we're not the same. I think it might be worth making the distinction. Like, look, if your favorite NBA player did something that is kind of like you cheated on his wife, all right, maybe still your favorite NBA player. But if somebody whose advice you've, it's their business to give advice, you've taken

their advice and then you really like, say you take a bunch of business advice from somebody and you realize they're actually a con artist. Yeah, or they're bankrupt or whatever. Like the multi-level marketing stuff always comes to mind. I'd love to just destroy these guys because you see the way they tell people to organize their life and the Motivational nonsense and then you find out that the person who's like giving seminars in Brazil about wealth and fame and freedom is Hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Yes gets indicted in like Brazil for federal crimes or whatever it is And you go. Oh, so not only were you broke,

you're stressed out, you have nothing to show for it. And you're roping us all in. And this is built on the backs of you stealing from other people. Yeah, yeah. So I get the not having certain advertisers on, how do you think about, because I've been thinking a lot about this,

how do you think about who you have on? Like, how do you think about drawing the line on what you platform and don't, or do you not think about it? I do think about it, I do think about who you have on and not? Like, how do you think about drawing the line on what you platform and don't? Or do you not think about it? I do think about it, I do think about it. So if somebody wants to come on and they have some sort of indiscretion in the past, I have to sort of ask myself,

does this person deserve to have a platform that talks about this particular thing? And it's usually like, okay, fine. Like if somebody has allegations of sexual misconduct in the past and they were acquitted or the whole thing was dropped, did that happen because they're rich and powerful? Maybe, but are we gonna talk about that?

Is that the focus of our conversation? Or are we gonna talk about something totally different? Okay, fine, they can come on. But if it's like, oh, this person is on their apology tour, where they're not really going to apologize, they're just going to try and distract everyone from the fact that they ran a pyramid scheme, no, I'm not going to entertain that nonsense.

Or if it's a person who I think is... It depends how transparent we're being. Like, I had Sammy the Bull on. Did he come on and say he wasn't a murderer? No, he came on and said, this is how many people I killed. The mafia is a terrible lifestyle. No one should be joining it. They should get rid of it. All you do is kill your friends and the people you love.

He's had something to that effect. And I was like, bravo. You were actually honest about this. That's pretty amazing. So is he a good person? No, objectively no. Right. Was he forthright about that?

Yes, that's what made the conversation interesting. What you don't want is somebody to come on and go, oh, you know, that was just a big misunderstanding. Look, I'm not in prison. I'd be in jail if I was doing something illegal. And then you find out that they had like, the reason they're not in prison is because they had $100 million restitution judgment.

And now they're like selling, they're shilling colloidal silver as a cure for cancer to like pay for that settlement. Like I wouldn't have- That's oddly specific. I'm sure I could Google it. You can, you could. But like I wouldn't have somebody like that on

or somebody who goes, I'm deliberately spreading misinformation because it's profitable to me. And I wanna come on your show and use it to expand my platform and ability to do that exact thing. No thanks. I think that's toxic. There's enough people who are more than willing to do that.

I am going to pass on this opportunity. And people think I'm crazy for that. Integrity is expensive. Because if you don't have it, you can make a lot more money and it's fast. Yes, and usually the things that you have to do, it's not like, I think people go like, okay, yeah, like, integrity is, you could embezzle and make all this money, and you're

not going to do it, right? Because like, actually, the integrity decisions, what's tough about them is usually it's something that a lot of people are doing. And it's very normal. And you're having to opt out of a thing that no one would judge you for doing. Yeah. Or few people would judge you for doing it. It's not like you do it and then you're a pariah,

but you can cry in your big pile of money. I think that's what people think, like these moments of big integrity are, but usually it's like no no no I'm actually like not gonna participate in this thing if I ask you these questions You would just be not making money from the advertisers that you're not accepting No one's like throwing you a parade and going yeah This is all part of the you know the Jordan harbinger like whole foods motto of like yeah, we listen to your show

Specifically because you don't do the, it's a quiet thing that you're just doing and it's costing you. And it's not just costing you, it's painful is the wrong word. It's more work. It's more work to not do it that way. And yeah, those are more the decision.

That's true. My sales team over at Podcast One, they're really good people, but they would love, they don't go, oh, hey, this supplement looks a little bit bullshitty. They just go, hey, this supplement. Their job is to give you the deal. Right, they go, hey, there's a really big deal coming in.

And I go, hey, you're not gonna like what I have to say on this next phone call, but I don't want that. And they're like, are you insane? And I'm not being diff, I'm not like, oh, I don't advertise gas-powered cars because green, I'm not doing that. I'm just like, oh, I don't advertise gas powered cars because green, I'm not doing that. I'm just saying this looks like a scam to me or this definitely doesn't work

according to like every actual scientist that I asked about it. I'm not gonna do it. And I do ask listeners, hey, if you hear a gambling ad, tell me because I have, basically I have to snipe this thing out in the dark because they're hiding from me. It's work. It's like there's diligence to it.

There's work, it's kind of exhausting. Yeah, it's strange. So someone in Western Australia is like, I heard an ad for a local casino and I'm like, God, how am I gonna fricking find that? Now my sales team has to call this like Australian agency that sells programmatic. They subcontract it.

And sometimes they come back and they go, I don't even know how to like start to address this problem. We sent a message to like the service that provides these and they didn't even answer. I think that's one of the things I've learned is you realize, oh, a lot of the structures that we have in business and in life or whatever are set up to just create just a couple layers.

So then it's either too much work or it's too difficult to know. Right? So like the reason for the subcon... like outsourcing is... like people think like Nike just goes and builds these big factories and then it's like and then of course we'll just pay the workers like 25 cents an hour and then we'll encourage them to bring their kids in there and then we'll lock them in like... no that's actually not how it works. Like most of the people at a company that are employing there they would never do something now yeah so what they do instead the way it works the way humans have always done is you pay someone

who pays someone who pays someone who does the fucked up thing. Or is made to understand that you're never gonna look that far down the line. And that's how everyone gets to sleep at night. Exactly, you might even go, we're hiring a supply chain auditing firm. And that firm goes all the way to Vietnam and they get shown a model factory where everything, everything in air quotes is made.

Sure, we outsource some manufacturing to some other places that are further from here, but it's a very small percentage. And then they fly home and they turn the lights out in that nice clean building where nothing is made, like at all. And they go back to the rural factories and they're like, all right, everybody,

get off your butts, you six-year-olds. Sew those stitches in. And they go, look, I've got a report from this auditing firm. This is the extra mile we went to. We paid a million dollars for them. We have photos and videos. And it's like, well, okay, at some level, you have to be an investigative journalist

with a massive New York Times thing. You just make it a little harder to know. And then since you don't want to know, you don't know. Right? Like that's how the mind works. Cause yeah, we think it's like, as a kid, you thought it was turning down drugs was going to be like, No, thank you. I'm not going to do heroin. Right? Like, it's never

like that, or they're gonna give me an envelope full of cash. Right. And, and then they're gonna ask me to do that's not how bribes were right, right? Like, it's, it's always much more subtle than that. And there's usually layers and levels of it. And we all have versions of that in our own life of things we don't wanna think about. Because if we thought about, then we'd have to do something. Yeah, yeah, it's funny you mentioned this.

On the way from the airport to Austin, the cab driver had a Russian accent. He says, oh, are you Russian? And he's like, well, I'm from Uzbekistan. And we got to talking. I said, oh, are you Russian? And he's like, well, I'm from Uzbekistan. And we got to talking. I said, when did you leave? All this stuff I always ask Uber drivers. And it turns out that his best friends are the COO of Gazprom,

which is this massive, it's basically British petroleum, but for Russia and Uzbekistan, former Soviet satellite states. And he's like, they're always trying to bring me back and hire me. And I'm like, but this is an UberX. Like, I'm not trying to go in black. I bring black when it's my parents and kids.

UberX for me. This guy's not living the high life. Not living the high life, okay? This is a $28 trip from the airport because Texas is way cheaper than California. And he's telling me, yeah, but you know what? Their kids all live in Europe and my kids live here. And I was like, what do you, you know,

flush that out for me? And he goes, if you work for Gazprom in Uzbekistan, you're basically just working for some KGB guy. And he explained to me how like, there's these firms that hire people and you don't get to work for Gazprom, you work for like Michael's Organist Staffing Co. And this mafia guy is basically taking

a cut of your paycheck and then he pays you. And also he's like, they use you like a condom is what he told me. He goes, they just make you do stuff. They lie to you about project timelines. They rope you in, they never wanna let you out. And meanwhile, you're in like Tajikistan in some rural area.

You don't see your family, you don't see your kids. So this guy made the choice, the expensive I assume, choice to be an Uber driver. And he said before this, he was a custodian at a school that ended up closing. So this is not a guy who made a ton of money. And he's like, but I don't regret my decision for one second because my kids are in university

in a safe country. And it really gets you thinking, like this guy could have made more money and probably not had it. He just had to not think about what he was doing. And he would have had a nicer house Yeah, probably a little private one of their dachas. Yeah, you know, it would have been this whole thing, right? And Yeah, he made that sort of hard

Right decision. Yeah, and he's like look at it now. Nobody has anything He's talking about the war right and he said in 2010 a bunch of Russians that had left went back there And he's like they're all gone now They all left which is kind of true like's like, they're all gone now, they all left. Which is kind of true, like according to people that I know that left, a lot of my friends went back there in 2010, and then they left before, right after the war.

And one of my buddies is a YouTuber, it was like a escapee. He runs a program for Russians that have left, and it's all just brain surgeon, engineer, doctor, because anybody who can leave is leaving. But these are people that, I just find it so interesting. Patriotism isn't something I usually harp on a ton,

but we are very lucky to be where we are. And I know everyone's like, this country is going to hell in a handbasket. Man, unless you've lived in a country that has gone to hell in a handbasket, you don't realize we're not exactly on the brink, and we've got a great thing going here. Well, if we don't screw it up, I suppose.

But I think that brings back to the discussion that I'm thinking a lot about, where it's like, I think a lot of people I know that sort of have internet platforms, they treat it like it's a video game, or just a thing they're optimizing, as opposed to a thing that has consequences. When I wrote Trust Me Online, which seems like forever ago, I remember I was struck

by this cartoon from the 1920s where this guy was talking about these bad, what were then sort of bad media outlets and the image was him poisoning the water supply of the city. That's what the bad news. Oh, I see. And the idea that like, the information that we consume being a commons like that this is something like clean water or clean air that we all rely on. And especially in a country where public opinion determines who gets elected, what those elected people are allowed to do the norms they follow.

This idea that like, oh, I just have a podcast and sure, I'm gonna have Alex Jones on, he's a nut bag, but he's funny and he'll get a lot of downloads. Or like, yeah, like, I mean, I don't agree with everything Robert F Kennedy Jr. is saying, but like, I know that'll do well. Like what you're doing is poisoning the well

for us now, for your children, for the world. Like real people are making real decisions based on what these grifters and charlatans are saying. And in some cases, as we saw during the pandemic, these have life or death consequences. When you, yeah, you show crypto and then somebody spends their, you know,

children's college savings there, their retirement on it. Like you have to think about what you're doing as being significant and important, even if it's pretty small, because it affects some people. And to me, yeah, if you don't take that seriously, there's something wrong with you. I definitely had planned on asking you this when I interviewed you as well,

because we can, you might have to repeat that exact thing. It was quite well said. It's funny, you also mentioned the two names that I was like dancing around earlier, because I was like, I don't know what your policy is on that stuff, but you're right. My policy is fuck those two guys. Fuck those two guys, yeah.

It's interesting, I see people are willing to pollute the information landscape for money, and it's really, really a bummer to understate it, right? It's terrible because these... And a lot of these guys, they have kids. They're willing to just dump motor oil in the lake that we all swim in information-wise because they will get a bigger house as a result of doing it.

Or fame. It's just like, hey, I gotta do five episodes a month and they asked to come on. You know, like there's what's really remarkable about it. And this obviously goes back to more extremes, but the banality of it. Just the like, whatever, we just talked for an hour. I'm just a comedian.

I'm just asking questions of the new excuse. Yeah, exactly. Or you can't censor people or there There's this there are these sort of Pedestrian ways we rationalize right what I think any person who takes seriously their obligations as a person in Relation to these commons would go look I can't stop people from being like that and I can't stop other people from having them on, but I can decide not to contribute to it. Of course.

And then the next sort of chess move in these people's arsenal is they go, well, if they're so bad, what you should do is debate them. And it's like, you can't debate a fire hose of misinformation. The point, the reason is because if I go, well, here's 10,000 different little misinformation things over the course

of a three hour conversation or however long your show is. What's that thing like the lies halfway around the world while the truth is getting its shoes on? It takes like an hour to debunk something that somebody said that they just made up. No, there's a rule, I forget what the name is, but it's like the amount of effort that it takes to combat bullshit is like 10 or 100 X,

the amount of effort to create bullshit. And so it's just inherently an unfair fight. And the only way you win is by not platforming that. Yes, and so people will say, hey, I refused to have RFK on a long time ago and I got a lot of crap from my audience from, and they were like, come on. People were like, oh, I'm really disappointed.

Like you're never that guy. And I go, no, look from my audience from and they were like come on you people were like I'm really disappointed like you're never that guy and I go no look this is not about me Disagreeing with some of the things on his platform or whatever look of course. I'm pro environmental But he's not going to agree to stick to that He wants to talk about the things that get him views which are these things that he has no idea what he's talking about And if we could agree to speak only of certain things that that might help a little, but I'm also sort of validating other things that he says by ignoring them and not challenging him on those things, because there's still people who go,

oh, this guy was really smart about the environment. Oh, Jordan didn't talk to him about vaccines or whatever. He must just sort of agree with all that stuff. And it's like, how do you deal with that? Oh, you debate him on the vaccine issue. Well, I can't do that because he doesn't even understand what he's saying. So how am I going to learn all that, undo all that stuff?

It doesn't make any sense. He had a worm that literally ate his brains and then has a series of cultural grievances that he uses to just attack things, which by the way, just fund this sort of empire that he has, which by the way, pays himself literally millions of dollars a year from. Yeah, his vaccine charity paid him like $7 million last year. It's an enormous grift. It's an enormous grift that comes at an incredible cost to not just to the people listening, but to the decisions they make about,

forget COVID, they're making decisions about whether they get their kids vaccinated for the mumps or the measles. And all these things that have real consequences, not just for immunocompromised kids, but for just regular kids. It's not fun to get those things. There's a reason we invented things

to help people with them. And so yeah, there's something weird about this. It goes back to why I wrote the book I did about Gawker where it's just this attitude of like, lol nothing matters. And like, this is all just a game and we're trying to get like the most views or the most points or the most listeners.

And like the externalities of that be damned. And I think it's, I've always liked that you clearly are very conscious of it. And I don't think any of us are perfect. I'm sure there's people that in retrospect you wouldn't have on again. Certainly are. I think about that way.

There's examples where I was snowed by the person or they turned out to be different than I thought. And so, but the idea is like, you're either thinking about these things or you're not. And I think a good portion of people have decided not to think about it because to think about it would mandate a certain kind of responsibility or costly decisions that they just don't want to make.

I agree. Hello, I'm Alice Levine. And I'm Matt Ford. And we're the hosts of Wanderers podcast, British Scandal. Where we tell you outrageous tales of how the mighty have fallen, and how the mighty have been defeated. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal.

And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we're here to help you understand the power of the British Scandal. And we And we're the hosts of Wanderers podcast British Scandal. Where we tell you outrageous tales of how the mighty have fallen on these pleasant pastures. In our latest series, we're donning the tennis whites and downing the Pims for a Wimbledon-themed scandal. Yes, we're telling the story of Boris Becker. How he went from being a tennis child star Wimbledon champion to having a one-night stand

in a London bar that turned into a headline-grabbing paternity row. And then tax evasion that saw him behind bars just a couple of miles from Wimbledon Centre Court. So if you need something just a little juicier than the current rolling coverage of aces and juices and people queuing for things, then this might just be for you. To find out the full story, follow British Scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Hello, I'm Hannah. And I'm Saruti. And we are the hosts of Red Handed, a weekly true crime podcast. Every week on Red Handed, we get stuck into the most talked about cases. From Idaho student killings, the Delphi murders and our recent rundown of the Murdoch saga. Last year, we also started a second weekly show, Shorthand, which is just an excuse for

us to talk about anything we find interesting because it's our show and we can do what we like. We've covered the death of Princess Diana, an unholy Quran written in Saddam Hussein's blood, the gruesome history of European witch hunting, and the very uncomfortable phenomenon of genetic sexual attraction. Whatever the case, we want to know what pushes people to the extremes of human behavior. Like can someone give consent to be cannibalized? What drives a child to kill?

And what's the psychology of a terrorist? Listen to Red Handed wherever you get your podcasts and access our bonus short hand episodes exclusively on Amazon Music or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. When Kanye was having his sort of anti-semite moment, I had the option to maybe have him and my buddy goes, hey man, I've known you for a long time and I'm not gonna tell you what to do, but there's just like a certain kind of person

that's putting a mic in front of Kanye West right now. And I was like, you're not the only person who's gonna think that. And this is a friend of mine that I've known for 15 years. And I'm like, if you think that, there's gonna be a lot of people who think that. This would get a lot of clicks. How much do I care about those clicks?

I'd rather be a person who doesn't literally exploit somebody who's having a public meltdown. And this seems weird, like that community line, like put aside the antisemitism, which we shouldn't do. But like, he's also not a well person. That's the other weird part that's happened in this space where it's like, there's a number of these people who they still have to be held accountable,

but they're obviously not well, but they are very popular. And there seems to be a lack of interest or awareness or compassion to go like, I'm not gonna participate in what is obviously your public meltdown or you're spinning off the planet or your descent into whatever it is you're descending to. Like, obviously I'm not saying you should be institutionalized,

but like people should not be putting mics in front of you. I agree. Look, I would love to interview Kanye West in a few years when he is not going through whatever he's going through. Like what if he goes and he gets medical treatment and he's like, oh my God, I am so sorry. I don't believe any of that stuff.

What the hell's wrong with me? I'll have that conversation with him and then we'll move on to his amazing creative enterprises. Like that would be phenomenal. But people weren't doing that. They wanted him on so that he would start yelling about the Jews and then- Yeah, and then that would be a viral clip.

Right. And I was like, I'm not gonna do that to this guy, man. Yeah. No thanks. Right, yeah, just the, hey, I'm not gonna enable what's happening. Yeah, yeah, especially for, also when you look at clicks on YouTube

and you meet like these really big YouTubers, you're like, oh my God, that got five million views. How much money do you make from something like that? You're like, that's it? That's what you see with selling? The smallness with which people will poison the information commons for it. The thing that, yeah, it's like your normal episode

does 100,000 views and this one did 150,000. Is that worth it? Yeah, it's crazy. But we don't think about it. There's a lot of guys now that realize that the algorithm on YouTube especially loves controversial polar extremes, Don't think about it. There's a lot of guys now that realize that the algorithm on YouTube especially loves controversial polar extremes, left-wingy or right-wingy stuff.

So what they do is instead of, and it's funny because if you go back on like the latest, let's say like left-wing craziness or right-wing craziness on YouTube for whatever YouTuber who's now trending, if you go back early, they were just trying to have normal-ish conversations with interesting people. Like there's one guy he interviewed to your earlier point, Molly Bloom. Wasn't a really good interview, wasn't really that engaging, didn't get that many clicks, and I see like tons of overlap with his guest list in mind. And then you fast forward to now and it's all, can you believe that this crazy thing happened? It's like conspiracy theories and just absolute nonsense and you go did you become Radicalized in some weird way or did you just feed the algorithm so much that now you are beholden to it?

And this is what they didn't know where they were going and yeah, they started to get traction Yeah, they're like that's where I'm going Yeah and so that's why it's like to go back to what you're talking about earlier, if what attracted you to making stuff or art or, you know, any any of those sort of public facing things, if what it was, was validation, attention and fame, yeah, that's a really bad compass, it is and you better hope you get lucky in a lot of ways, but that when you

do get lucky, you get lucky for something that's not abhorrent or insane, or, you know, whatever, because if that's where it goes, that's where you're going. And so yeah, if you don't have a compass, you're like, here's what I care about, here's what I like, here's what's important to me, here's where my boundaries or limitations are, you could find yourself in very sketchy territory very quickly. Well, it goes back to one of your previous works, Ego is the Enemy, and I know,

it's always a good strategy to kiss the host's ass during a podcast, by the way. It's working for me, I think. When you make choices based on those kinds of things, like, all these guys doing these shows, it's almost always guys, so when all these guys doing these shows, they could still always guys. So when all these guys do any shows, they could still make a million or $2 a year

doing their show if they just had interesting conversations with people they wanted to talk to. But instead they wanted to make $10 million a year. Even though they were already rich when they started from their like multi-level marketing scam or whatever that they ran beforehand. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I know you do.

And so, but then it's like, oh, well, I'll be more famous and I'll be able to hang out with like Joe Rogan and be able to point to myself with famous people in photos and that's important to me because it makes me feel good about myself. And you go, at some point, unless your kids turn out the way that you're raising them, at some point your grandkids or your kids are gonna go,

oh man, grandpa was a grifter, huh? That's sort of sucks, that sort of sucks. Cause they're gonna watch this or Google all this and just go, oh, he just did anything for money, it sucks. Yeah, it's very sad, I don't know. But that's why integrity is expensive. It's so much easier to trend and get famous and rich if you are just willing to do

whatever the algorithms want you to do. And I'm speaking to the algorithms like they have control because they actually do. Mm-hmm. I know I might sound a little crazy, but Renee de Resta, do you know her? No. She writes a lot of books and she studies disinformation. Yeah. And she was talking about how people are like no longer creating for other people.

They're creating for this confluence of the algorithm and people, especially on YouTube and social media. They're trying to surf a wave. It's like this weird, it's insane because it doesn't exist, it's not a person. But they're like competing for this person's approval. Yeah, this robot person type of, or like this average.

The god of traffic that they've made up in their head that they think, I think what he wants is this, I think what she wants is this. It's very weird. I call this the Jerry Springer effect Do you remember when Jerry Springer was a real host and had real conversations you and I were probably like 11 or 12 I probably yeah, I guess I would have watched it when I was a Homestuck from school right like with your mom and she's watching Jerry Springer and you're like, oh that guy's pretty smart So what happened was Geraldo Rivera who you probably know? That guy's pretty smart. So what happened was Geraldo Rivera who you probably know

He also had a daytime TV show and he invited on like Black Panthers and neo-nazis or some KKK guys or whatever and it was just supposed to be like another one of his sort of vanilla daytime conversations It was like Oprah Donahue Jerry Springer, Ricky Lake, whatever But of course they started fighting Yeah It was like crazy is on either side and he gets hit in the face with a chair trying to break up a fight because they didn't have security guys back then probably. And then he's doing the rest of his episodes

with bandages over his nose. And it got like in the nightly news and international news, like look at this crazy thing. So his ratings go through the roof. So then what does Jerry Springer do? Oh man, I gotta start doing this circus crap. So he starts turning it into wrestling. And then Ricky Lake, who also was kind of serious

at that point, she turns it into trailer, trashy, wrestling, whatever. And now there's anything wrong with living in a trailer. I just passed a bunch of those on the way out here. Those people are actually quite nice most of the time. But they turn it into that, right? And then you see like, Jenny Jones is another one.

All these daytime people start turning it into the same thing. The problem is Jerry Springer, I think he was like the mayor of Cleveland or like the governor of Ohio, I always forget. And then he sort of tried to like go back into serious stuff for a minute. And the whole audience was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have crossed the Rubicon, my friend. You are now wrestling on That's who you are. Talk shows.

You can't go back and be serious. This is also what's happening with YouTube channels. Yeah, that's what audience capture is. Yes, exactly. So you see these YouTube channels where somebody was like, I wanna talk about science. This show is about the latest cutting edge science. I watched a show where my friend was doing those interviews

probably like five, six years ago. The latest person he had on were these guys that were talking about woke-ism and how it's a mind virus and he was talking about, yeah, you know, all this stuff, conspiracy theory here, there. And I texted his show booker and I go, what are you doing? And he goes, oh, I quit a long time ago. I couldn't handle it.

It's just too ridiculous. We're off the deep end. And I'm like, why does he do that? And he goes, have you seen his traffic, his channel traffic? It used to be like hovering around this. And now it's like, it varies, but it's much higher. He's making more money doing it. I'm like, but he knows this is insane and stupid.

We talked about this. And he's like, yeah, but once you get those sweet, sweet clicks, man, it's like drugs. Yeah, I knew to say no to drugs Then I tried it at a party and have you tried drugs? They're amazing and you're like, this is how it happens. All right Well, let's not do that. Let's not do that Thanks so much for listening if you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes that would mean so much to us and It would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode If you like the daily stoic and thanks listening, you can listen early and ad free

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